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View Full Version : Sutton recalled, Roenicke optioned to Louisville



REDSEER
07-17-2009, 04:46 PM
Fay:


From the Reds:

Today the Reds recalled from Louisville IF Drew Sutton (#27) and optioned to Louisville RHP Josh Roenicke.


No lineup yet.

redsfan4445
07-17-2009, 04:57 PM
WOW im excited!!! they need a Outfielder, they call up a infielder.. and send down Josh.. that Sell off is looking better everyday for Bob to save money. Im looking at 2012 as I think they will compete for the wild card then.

RANDY IN INDY
07-17-2009, 05:00 PM
I kind of feel sorry for the team. They have hung in tough for half a season, in spite of the injuries.

Chip R
07-17-2009, 05:00 PM
WOW im excited!!! they need a Outfielder, they call up a infielder.. and send down Josh.. that Sell off is looking better everyday for Bob to save money. Im looking at 2012 as I think they will compete for the wild card then.


So you think they need 13 pitchers?

LawFive
07-17-2009, 05:01 PM
It makes sense for Roenicke to be the guy - he threw 2 innings last night. May as well send down the person who probably couldn't be used tonight anyway.

Tom Servo
07-17-2009, 05:01 PM
The winning starts now.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 05:01 PM
Confusing and frustrating move. Roenicke was doing well, I do not see the point of sending him out. I guess he had the bad luck to pitch two innings yesterday, making him the least rested guy. Or something. So now he's in AAA for at least 10 days.

As for Sutton, that's fine, but I hope somebody in this organization is looking at the 25 man roster. The team now probably has the worst outfield in the major leagues. That's where the need is. I don't see how this helps except to provide an additional bench guy.

I agree that 12 pitchers is adequate but I don't like the choices they are making.

redsmetz
07-17-2009, 05:02 PM
WOW im excited!!! they need a Outfielder, they call up a infielder.. and send down Josh.. that Sell off is looking better everyday for Bob to save money. come on 2012 i think they will compete for the wild card then

I understand the cynicism that you feel, but really, I'm not surprised. Jocketty said very clearly yesterday (I believe) that he said he thought Stubbs need some more time and he wasn't going to rush him.

Despite what some think here on RZ that the club is doing nothing, and more so, doing much of the same as previous years, I really don't want the team wiping out the several years of development they've done to just willy nilly deal away the depth I think we have. I think where players in our system are (including guys on the ML club) is becoming clearer and we may well start seeing some players moved, but I don't want us being forced into making bad moves in some false hope that this year can be salvaged. I still want them thinking long term. With the plethora of injuries this year, what might have been isn't coming around.

redsfan4445
07-17-2009, 05:03 PM
no i think they need to get down to 12 pitchers.. but get a outfielder up here. not a infielder..

Will M
07-17-2009, 05:03 PM
i don't get it. why send Roenicke down? wasn't he pitching well? better than Manuel? doesn't he have better upside than Manuel?

Kc61
07-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Despite what some think here on RZ that the club is doing nothing, and more so, doing much of the same as previous years, I really don't want the team wiping out the several years of development they've done to just willy nilly deal away the depth I think we have. I think where players in our system are (including guys on the ML club) is becoming clearer and we may well start seeing some players moved, but I don't want us being forced into making bad moves in some false hope that this year can be salvaged. I still want them thinking long term. With the plethora of injuries this year, what might have been isn't coming around.

How is it good long-term thinking to take a 27 year old like Roenicke, who was pitching well, getting out major league hitters, showing pretty good control and excellent stuff, and sending him back to AAA?

lollipopcurve
07-17-2009, 05:06 PM
A little curious, since Roenicke has been impressive. Hopefully he closes games in Louisville and comes back with an assignment to pitch more high leverage innings. I've really been pleasantly surprised at how much better he has looked this year than last. I liked Fisher better coming out of AAA this year, but that was based on numbers alone. Having seen them both, I think Roenicke is the better reliever and has more upside.

Hoping Sutton gets an occasional start, though I won't be holding my breath.

JaxRed
07-17-2009, 05:06 PM
i don't get it. why send Roenicke down? wasn't he pitching well? better than Manuel? doesn't he have better upside than Manuel?

Manuel has 0.00 ERA

TheNext44
07-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Confusing and frustrating move. Roenicke was doing well, I do not see the point of sending him out. I guess he had the bad luck to pitch two innings yesterday, making him the least rested guy. Or something. So now he's in AAA for at least 10 days.

As for Sutton, that's fine, but I hope somebody in this organization is looking at the 25 man roster. The team now probably has the worst outfield in the major leagues. That's where the need is. I don't see how this helps except to provide an additional bench guy.

I agree that 12 pitchers is adequate but I don't like the choices they are making.

Roenicke pitched last night, and he has been hit kinda hard his last four appearances. 9.00 ERA and a 2.0 WHIP.

Honestly, between Manuel and Roenicke, it just doesn't matter all that much.

I am hoping Sutton's call up is a precursor to a trade for an outfielder, assuming Dickerson's is hurt.

No way this team can put out an outfield of Nix, Tavaras and Gomes and not be laughed at. It reminds me of 1982 with an outfield of Mike Lum, Paul Householder and Larry Biitner.

Chip R
07-17-2009, 05:08 PM
no i think they need to get down to 12 pitchers.. but get a outfielder up here. not a infielder..


They have Nix, Tavares, Gomes. Dickerson wasn't put on the DL so we can count him. Hairston can play OF and so can Rosales. Owings can pinch hit when he doesn't pitch. Why call someone like Stubbs or Heisey up to sit on the bench?

REDSEER
07-17-2009, 05:12 PM
FYI Dickerson is in the lineup (at least for now) for tonight's game

redsmetz
07-17-2009, 05:12 PM
How is it good long-term thinking to take a 27 year old like Roenicke, who was pitching well, getting out major league hitters, showing pretty good control and excellent stuff, and sending him back to AAA?

I'm not talking about roenicke in particular. Guys, especially relief pitchers, get shuffled back and forth. I'm talking about something like moving up Stubbs or Heisey before they're ready or making a trade that helps in the moment, but has us giving away something more valuable needlessly because of a current pressing need.

What we don't know is what else (if anything) is going on in the back rooms. At times, we assume nothing is going on, when the GM is working the phones tirelessly. Good trades and such moves, take time and that's what I'm more concerned with ultimately - getting those moves right.

Going back to Louisville isn't going to hurt Roenicke and we've got other relievers that can handle his spot while he's gone. Really, he's the least of our worries.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Roenicke pitched last night, and he has been hit kinda hard his last four appearances. 9.00 ERA and a 2.0 WHIP.

.


Just look at the game-by-game log. The only time he was "hit kinda hard" was in NY, one game. Last night he pitched two good innings, allowed a run on a squib hit to third.

The guy shows tremendous upside, has already dominated AAA, and is at an age where he needs to be in the major leagues.

I assume Dusty will say, tonight, that "Josh did well here but has a few things to work on."

redsfan4445
07-17-2009, 05:14 PM
i just want them to tell the Reds fans the truth.. 2009 was not in the plans.. they just said it to get reds fans to think they were.. because they keep playing short handed.. they keep letting guys that fail play and nothing is changing.. its like 2008 all over again with the same type of guy leading off.. Hairston last year was the best lead-off hitter and they WON games!!! why keep playing guys that are supposed to be spark plugs but aren't? Patterson last year should have told them NOT to get Taveras.. they have Dickerson and Jerry to cover CF and get a big Bat for left.. that should have been the plan instead of saying we are going for speed and defense when they have done little of that all year and nobody is held accountable..and to see players fail to slide or keep over throwing cut-off men, doesn't bring championships.. now the p[layers dont even look focused.. i get tired of seeing Brandon smiling when the reds are getting their butts kicked..or slowing down running to 1st.. the month after Joey was out, he was a different Brandon hustling out of the box and looking more focused, going the otgher way. I could see it, i sure hope others did on here.. anyway it prb doesn't matter as this season is going down the drain very fast.. the coaching staff should be replaced and in a hurry especially JaCoby!!! I want to see a Kevin Mitchell as the reds hitting coach. Cant hurt.. a change has to happen as this playing cant be, or shouldn't be acceptable to the front office. anyway i had to vent a bit.. sorry if i offended anybody, i just am tired of the losing and the excuses..

Chip R
07-17-2009, 05:15 PM
i just want them to tell the Reds fans the truth.. 2009 was not in the plans.. they just said it to get reds fans to think they were.. because they keep playing short handed.. they keep letting guys that fail play and nothing is changing.. its like 2008 all over again with the same type of guy leading off.. Hairston last year was the best lead-off hitter and they WON games!!! why keep playing guys that are supposed to be spark plugs but aren't? Patterson last year should have told them NOT to get Taveras.. they have Dickerson and Jerry to cover CF and get a big Bat for left.. that should have been the plan instead of saying we are going for speed and defense when they have done little of that all year and nobody is held accountable..and to see players fail to slide or keep over throwing cut-off men, doesn't bring championships.. now the p[layers dont even look focused.. i get tired of seeing Brandon smiling when the reds are getting their butts kicked..or slowing down running to 1st.. the month after Joey was out, he was a different Brandon hustling out of the box and looking more focused, going the otgher way. I could see it, i sure hope others did on here.. anyway it prb doesn't matter as this season is going down the drain very fast.. the coaching staff should be replaced and in a hurry especially JaCoby!!! I want to see a Kevin Mitchell as the reds hitting coach. Cant hurt.. a change has to happen as this playing cant be, or shouldn't be acceptable to the front office. anyway i had to vent a bit.. sorry if i offended anybody, i just am tired of the losing and the excuses..


Longest. Text Message. Ever.

IslandRed
07-17-2009, 05:19 PM
I hope this is an indication that Dickerson's back is no big deal.

Total unfounded speculation: Maybe they have an idea of who might be dealt later this month and want Roenicke to get his closer back on.

GAC
07-17-2009, 05:20 PM
They have Nix, Tavares, Gomes. Dickerson wasn't put on the DL so we can count him. Hairston can play OF and so can Rosales. Owings can pinch hit when he doesn't pitch. Why call someone like Stubbs or Heisey up to sit on the bench?

Quit trying to make sense. :p:

It doesn't matter that this organization has said kids like Stubbs and Heisey aren't ready and don't want to rush them. We, the fans, know better.

And Dickerson will play, even though he is still fighting back spasms.....

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090717&content_id=5900948&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

CINCINNATI -- Reds manager Dusty Baker had expected outfielder Chris Dickerson to be past his back spasms and ready to play to the point that he had him in Thursday's starting lineup leading off and playing right field.

Then Baker saw Dickerson moving around.

"He was walking like Fred Sanford when he came in," Baker said just before scratching Dickerson from the game.

As long as he isn't looking skyward to join Elizabeth, Dickerson should be fine.

On Sunday vs. the Mets, Dickerson had to exit the game in the fifth inning when he was bothered by spasms. He was originally listed as day-to-day, but visited a chiropractor on Thursday.

"He's feeling better," Baker said. "He just got re-adjusted. He had a rib out of place or something. He should be OK tomorrow."

Dickerson is batting .277 with two home runs and 13 RBIs this season. He is on a five-game hitting streak and is batting .352 (25-for-71) over his last 23 games, which raised his average over 30 points. His playing time was expected to increase after Jay Bruce went on the disabled list over the weekend because of a fractured right wrist.

With Dickerson out and the Reds carrying 13 pitchers, it left Baker with only three healthy bench players during Thursday's 9-6 loss to the Brewers -- Ryan Hanigan, Paul Janish and Adam Rosales.

redsmetz
07-17-2009, 05:21 PM
redsfan4445, I'm not sure they ever felt for sure that 2009 was the year, although it would have been very interesting had we not had the rash of injuries we've had all year. And I'm saying that despite the big mistake the club made in signing Taveras.

And certainly don't let your frustrations eliminate the use of paragraphs. They're our friends, you know. ;)

redsmetz
07-17-2009, 05:23 PM
Quit trying to make sense. :p:

It doesn't matter that this organization has said kids like Stubbs and Heisey aren't ready and don't want to rush them. We, the fans, know better.

I swear we should plaster that on the opening page to RZ sometimes.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm not talking about roenicke in particular. Guys, especially relief pitchers, get shuffled back and forth. I'm talking about something like moving up Stubbs or Heisey before they're ready or making a trade that helps in the moment, but has us giving away something more valuable needlessly because of a current pressing need.

What we don't know is what else (if anything) is going on in the back rooms. At times, we assume nothing is going on, when the GM is working the phones tirelessly. Good trades and such moves, take time and that's what I'm more concerned with ultimately - getting those moves right.

Going back to Louisville isn't going to hurt Roenicke and we've got other relievers that can handle his spot while he's gone. Really, he's the least of our worries.

I do see a contradiction. Relief pitchers are important too. When a guy earns the majors and does pretty well there, sending him back is confusing to him and to the fans. I'm not suggesting Roenicke was ready to close games or anything, but using him in losing situations was getting him valuable experience. He's a mature guy, he shouldn't be at AAA where he has already dominated. This move doesn't make sense to me.

I've been very supportive and patient with this team but at this point I'm really confused. Their moves seem driven by the 40-man roster. They acquired veterans in the off-season yet refuse to make the major veteran move to establish the club. If they are going young, they aren't advancing players quickly. Why are Frazier and Wood still at AA?

They kept Jay Bruce in the major leagues all year when he wasn't ready -- which is fine but in most other cases are being overly protective of young players. Just contradictory if you ask me.

Frankly, it's one of those periods where I would be very grateful for a little explanation from the management of this team as to what their goals are and why I should spend any more time hoping that they will win.

GAC
07-17-2009, 05:29 PM
i just want them to tell the Reds fans the truth

Where have they lied? Give some specifics please.


Hairston last year was the best lead-off hitter and they WON games!!!

When he wasn't on the DL. Have you seen his numbers this year? Nothing to brag on.


Patterson last year should have told them NOT to get Taveras

Shame on Corey for not warning this organization. :lol:


they have Dickerson and Jerry to cover CF

I don't trust JHJ at SS...let alone CF.

Chip R
07-17-2009, 05:33 PM
Shame on Corey for not warning this organization. :lol:


:laugh:

OnBaseMachine
07-17-2009, 05:39 PM
Why Roenicke? Manuel has pitched well but so has Roenicke and his stuff is better too.

GAC
07-17-2009, 05:47 PM
Why Roenicke? Manuel has pitched well but so has Roenicke and his stuff is better too.

Maybe it came down to a coin toss and Josh lost? ;)

Will M
07-17-2009, 05:53 PM
Manuel has 0.00 ERA

ERAs for relievers with low IP totals mean little.

Manuel has 2 Ks, a 1.38 WHIP & a .294 BAA in 4.1 IP.
Roenicke has 12 Ks, a 1.30 WHIP & a .261 BAA in 12 IP.

Roy Tucker
07-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Longest. Text Message. Ever.

SMS has a length limit of 160 chars.

Color me very underwhelmed by Drew Sutton. But RZ is famous for 25th man on the roster debates.

Big Klu
07-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Roenicke pitched last night, and he has been hit kinda hard his last four appearances. 9.00 ERA and a 2.0 WHIP.

Honestly, between Manuel and Roenicke, it just doesn't matter all that much.

I am hoping Sutton's call up is a precursor to a trade for an outfielder, assuming Dickerson's is hurt.

No way this team can put out an outfield of Nix, Tavaras and Gomes and not be laughed at. It reminds me of 1982 with an outfield of Mike Lum, Paul Householder and Larry Biitner.


I have not been all that impressed with Roenicke. He throws hard, but it seems like he allows a lot of baserunners. Of course, I'm not impressed with Manuel either.


I think you menat Mike Vail instead of Mike Lum.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 06:03 PM
I'm convinced that the Reds intend to trade Roenicke. Perhaps they were worried his ERA would hit 3 plus and make him look less shiny. Of course, given budget constraints, whatever trades they have in mind will probably be lateral moves obtaining decent stop gap players with short, relatively cheap contracts.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 06:06 PM
I have not been all that impressed with Roenicke. He throws hard, but it seems like he allows a lot of baserunners. Of course, I'm not impressed with Manuel either.


I think you menat Mike Vail instead of Mike Lum.

Roenicke had a 1.30 WHIP. That's a solid number, not a lot of baserunners. A good reliever should be about 1.3 or below. For somebody new, it's a good number.

Manual's WHIP is higher, 1.38. Fisher's is 1.59.

membengal
07-17-2009, 06:10 PM
I swear we should plaster that on the opening page to RZ sometimes.

I swear, it's silly to question the reds organization, because they are infallible and we have been bathed in 10 years of post-season play and 5 world titles since 1999, so why question what the front office does? Just sit back as fans and enjoy all the winning...

membengal
07-17-2009, 06:12 PM
SMS has a length limit of 160 chars.

Color me very underwhelmed by Drew Sutton. But RZ is famous for 25th man on the roster debates.

The Reds are famous for limiting their fans to debating such matters. It certainly isn't commonplace to be discussing their latest bold in-season trade, I will agree with that...

Big Klu
07-17-2009, 06:12 PM
Confusing and frustrating move. Roenicke was doing well, I do not see the point of sending him out. I guess he had the bad luck to pitch two innings yesterday, making him the least rested guy. Or something. So now he's in AAA for at least 10 days.

As for Sutton, that's fine, but I hope somebody in this organization is looking at the 25 man roster. The team now probably has the worst outfield in the major leagues. That's where the need is. I don't see how this helps except to provide an additional bench guy.

I agree that 12 pitchers is adequate but I don't like the choices they are making.

I figured that the delay on bringing someone up was because they had to wait ten days before bringing Sutton back. I think that Dickerson is probably OK, or at least only a day or two away. As for Stubbs and Heisey, Walt has said that he doesn't want to rush either of them. Based on what I've read and heard about them, I would have to agree.


I hope this is an indication that Dickerson's back is no big deal.

Total unfounded speculation: Maybe they have an idea of who might be dealt later this month and want Roenicke to get his closer back on.


I'm convinced that the Reds intend to trade Roenicke. Perhaps they were worried his ERA would hit 3 plus and make him look less shiny. Of course, given budget constraints, whatever trades they have in mind will probably be lateral moves obtaining decent stop gap players with short, relatively cheap contracts.

I think that Roenicke is a prime candidate to be a trading chip.

HokieRed
07-17-2009, 06:13 PM
I'm convinced that the Reds intend to trade Roenicke. Perhaps they were worried his ERA would hit 3 plus and make him look less shiny. Of course, given budget constraints, whatever trades they have in mind will probably be lateral moves obtaining decent stop gap players with short, relatively cheap contracts.

I wouldn't be surprised. He's about the only thing we have, apart from players no one would want to trade (Votto, Phillips, Cueto, Volquez, Bruce), whom anybody would actually give us more than just salary relief for. Most of the stuff people have been coming up with is a list of players we no longer want or whom we consider overpaid; it seems often forgotten that other teams will regard these players similarly. I'm sure when Walt calls people up, Roenicke's name is probably one of the first mentioned.

Big Klu
07-17-2009, 06:18 PM
Roenicke had a 1.30 WHIP. That's a solid number, not a lot of baserunners. A good reliever should be about 1.3 or below. For somebody new, it's a good number.

Manual's WHIP is higher, 1.38. Fisher's is 1.59.

Manuel and Fisher don't impress me, either. (Though Fisher has had his moments.)

I would have sent Manuel down if it had been up to me, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. It's a minor deal.

Mario-Rijo
07-17-2009, 06:25 PM
Manuel and Fisher don't impress me, either. (Though Fisher has had his moments.)

I would have sent Manuel down if it had been up to me, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. It's a minor deal.

Manuels stuff is underwhelming for sure at best he is a decent 6th inning MR type who will at least come in and throw strikes and that has some value although not enough to be considered anyone of significant importance in the grand scheme of things. Fisher could be a little better as his stuff is solid but his delivery is a bit long and a little bit unorthodox and that seems to make him inconsistent in throwing strikes. But I think he's a good MR eventually and an adequate set up guy down the road in a pinch.

TheNext44
07-17-2009, 07:34 PM
I have not been all that impressed with Roenicke. He throws hard, but it seems like he allows a lot of baserunners. Of course, I'm not impressed with Manuel either.


I think you menat Mike Vail instead of Mike Lum.

Yes, Vail, not Lum. Thanks for the catch? :thumbup:

RedsManRick
07-17-2009, 08:30 PM
Manuel and Fisher don't impress me, either. (Though Fisher has had his moments.)

I would have sent Manuel down if it had been up to me, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. It's a minor deal.

Fisher looks like a standard issue long reliever. Won't kill you, but won't wow you either.

OnBaseMachine
07-17-2009, 09:01 PM
I like Carlos Fisher and Roenicke a lot. Fisher has struggled with his control but that was never an issue in the minors and I don't think it will be in the majors in the future. I love his fastball/curveball combo. Same with Roenicke. His control has improved a bunch this season. I think both of them project as above average or better relievers.

Highlifeman21
07-17-2009, 09:26 PM
So you think they need 13 pitchers?

14 if you count Janish.

Kc61
07-17-2009, 09:40 PM
I like Carlos Fisher and Roenicke a lot. Fisher has struggled with his control but that was never an issue in the minors and I don't think it will be in the majors in the future. I love his fastball/curveball combo. Same with Roenicke. His control has improved a bunch this season. I think both of them project as above average or better relievers.

They both get Ks and ground balls. I like them both too. Fisher can be a valuable multi-inning reliever. Roenicke perhaps a late inning guy. I think Manuel can be a good middle reliever too, he seems to have good command. This was the strength of AAA this year, the bullpen guys. Too bad one had to be sent back.

Highlifeman21
07-17-2009, 09:48 PM
i just want them to tell the Reds fans the truth.. 2009 was not in the plans.. they just said it to get reds fans to think they were.. because they keep playing short handed.. they keep letting guys that fail play and nothing is changing.. its like 2008 all over again with the same type of guy leading off.. Hairston last year was the best lead-off hitter and they WON games!!! why keep playing guys that are supposed to be spark plugs but aren't? Patterson last year should have told them NOT to get Taveras.. they have Dickerson and Jerry to cover CF and get a big Bat for left.. that should have been the plan instead of saying we are going for speed and defense when they have done little of that all year and nobody is held accountable..and to see players fail to slide or keep over throwing cut-off men, doesn't bring championships.. now the p[layers dont even look focused.. i get tired of seeing Brandon smiling when the reds are getting their butts kicked..or slowing down running to 1st.. the month after Joey was out, he was a different Brandon hustling out of the box and looking more focused, going the otgher way. I could see it, i sure hope others did on here.. anyway it prb doesn't matter as this season is going down the drain very fast.. the coaching staff should be replaced and in a hurry especially JaCoby!!! I want to see a Kevin Mitchell as the reds hitting coach. Cant hurt.. a change has to happen as this playing cant be, or shouldn't be acceptable to the front office. anyway i had to vent a bit.. sorry if i offended anybody, i just am tired of the losing and the excuses..

Is this RedsZone, or TextsFromLastNight?

Highlifeman21
07-17-2009, 09:50 PM
Maybe it came down to a coin toss and Josh lost? ;)

Best 2 outta 3 rock paper scissors

Stephenk29
07-17-2009, 09:53 PM
I swear, it's silly to question the reds organization, because they are infallible and we have been bathed in 10 years of post-season play and 5 world titles since 1999, so why question what the front office does? Just sit back as fans and enjoy all the winning...

Yeah since its been the same front office for all those years :rolleyes:

membengal
07-17-2009, 09:57 PM
Yeah since its been the same front office for all those years :rolleyes:

So, I blinked and missed the good ones? So none of them should have been questioned because they were all so awesome? So this one shouldn't be questioned because it might be awesome? <rollseyes> right back

Stephenk29
07-17-2009, 10:05 PM
So, I blinked and missed the good ones? So none of them should have been questioned because they were all so awesome? So this one shouldn't be questioned because it might be awesome? <rollseyes> right back

Just because Bowden and the rest of the GMs and owners sucked over time doesn't mean Jocketty/Cast are doing a horrible job. Sure you can question them, but sometimes that pointless. What can the Reds really do right now? I highly doubt any payroll and can be taken on. We don't know what other teams are demanding via trade. As of the 25 man situation, I probalby take Jocketty's word for it. He's had a good track record of putting teams together. This team has blown, but count all the injuries and what not.

membengal
07-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Well, Cast has been constant through three GMs now, but he is not to be questioned? And Walt is 14 months into a gig where his predecessor got only 26 months, but he's off-limits too?

So a good fan just sits there and says "hooray" and "go get 'em boys" and "neat"? Because, if so, what a stepford wives existence of fandom that would be...

Stephenk29
07-17-2009, 10:19 PM
Well, Cast has been constant through three GMs now, but he is not to be questioned? And Walt is 14 months into a gig where his predecessor got only 26 months, but he's off-limits too?

So a good fan just sits there and says "hooray" and "go get 'em boys" and "neat"? Because, if so, what a stepford wives existence of fandom that would be...

:bowrofl: Go Reds! Isn't losing fun! I'll give you the fact that Cast was quick to fire Krivsky, I thought he did a good job. If Walk is going to sit there and say Stubbs or whoever is not ready, I'll take his word over my own or whatever fan that doesn't hear about him about everyday.

membengal
07-17-2009, 10:25 PM
:bowrofl: Go Reds! Isn't losing fun! I'll give you the fact that Cast was quick to fire Krivsky, I thought he did a good job. If Walk is going to sit there and say Stubbs or whoever is not ready, I'll take his word over my own or whatever fan that doesn't hear about him about everyday.

Cool. So long as it's fine by you that others may not.

Stephenk29
07-17-2009, 10:37 PM
Cool. So long as it's fine by you that others may not.

So if Walt has all these scouts, coaches and whoever watching guys like Stubbs everyday he's still not going to have a better opinion on him than we do? Do you not think Walt would have a pretty good idea?

Mario-Rijo
07-17-2009, 10:55 PM
So if Walt has all these scouts, coaches and whoever watching guys like Stubbs everyday he's still not going to have a better opinion on him than we do? Do you not think Walt would have a pretty good idea?

Not to get this thread off in another direction but if that was the case Wily Taveras wouldn't be a Red. Their opinions are just that and plenty of times they are wrong. Frankly I think the vast majority of RZ posters usually have a better grasp on the team than the organization does. We wouldn't continue to question them if they were right more often than we are. I know just how ludicrous that sounds but I think it's more an indictment of the organization than it is a statement of RZ being smarter than people who are paid to run organizations.

Although RZ is pretty well on point.

membengal
07-17-2009, 11:30 PM
So if Walt has all these scouts, coaches and whoever watching guys like Stubbs everyday he's still not going to have a better opinion on him than we do? Do you not think Walt would have a pretty good idea?

For the record, I at no point in this thread, or others, I don't believe, have advocated calling Stubbs up. What I am pushing back against is the notion that somehow the Reds front office is so wise and knowing that they are above question or conversation. I reject that outright.

Or that, because Walt has access to scouting reports that he is automatically going to make the right decisions. Or that we have to accept that "Walt knows best" because of that same access. I also reject that outright.

kpresidente
07-18-2009, 08:14 AM
Color me very underwhelmed by Drew Sutton. But RZ is famous for 25th man on the roster debates.

Jeff Keppinger - .268/.351/.409/.760

.907 OPS vs. LHP

GAC
07-18-2009, 09:56 AM
Well, Cast has been constant through three GMs now, but he is not to be questioned?

Who is saying that he shouldn't be questioned mem?


And Walt is 14 months into a gig where his predecessor got only 26 months, but he's off-limits too?

Who is saying he is off-limits? Respectfully, just because some may disagree with your assessments and criticisms of Jocketty - of which some I agree with - doesn't mean he should be off-limits for scrutiny.

Speaking only for myself - I think WK got the short end of the stick, and not enough time to "structurally" turn this ship around. Not when one looks at the condition this organization was in when he got hired. The "foundation" was pretty shaky overall. And there were some, on here, who were opposed to the WK hiring in the first place. So they weren't going to cut him any slack whatsoever, regardless of what he did. I remember a few who were calling for his firing at the AS break of his first year. I thought "You gotta be kidding me!".

But just because WK got treated that way does not mean that Jocketty should get the same treatment, or have the same, IMHO, unreasonable timetable set upon him. Not if I think the timetable enforced, or suggested, was wrong and misguided to begin with. We have to stop this revolving door of changing GMs every 1-2 years because they haven't immediately turned a bad franchise around fast enough to our liking. That's not good.

Jocketty (and Baker) made a lot of wholesale chances going into this season. Jocketty cleaned out some dregs. He also brought some in. But he did change the "face" of this team. They improved the catching corp and strengthened the bullpen.

But here is where I think Castellini/Jocketty screwed up (and all for the sake of payroll).....

He basically gutted the 08 OF. No one is lamenting the loss of an aging, injury-prone, declining skills Jr. And many would say the same about the defensive-lacking Dunn. But what did Jocketty replace them with? They moved Bruce to his natural position (RF); but regardless of his potential, he is a 22 yr old unproven. They replaced a "statue" in LF, whose career offensive production was to put up a .382 OB% .519 SLG% and .902 OPS, and replaced it with statues like Nix, or unprovens like a Gomes and Dickerson. These are utility players on a majority of ML teams. They then go out and get a non-tendered Coors Field CFer in Taveras whose career numbers, especially as a lead-off guy, would make anyone wince.

Shortstop. Not an easy position to fill in the open market unless one is ready to cough up the big bucks. And this organization wasn't. And I don't know who was even available in the off-season. But they again rolled the dice in hoping that AGon would be healthy, after a year lay-off, and fill that role. And just in case, as a backup, they resigned, and overpaid IMO, another utility player in Hairston while letting Keppinger go. That's $400,000/yr Keppinger, who is putting up better numbers then JHJ. I would rather have Keppinger on my bench, then having to raid our farm system and call up guys like Castillo, Richar, and Sutton.

IMO, the bottomline is that defensive players are cheaper, and more easily available, on the market. That is, defensive players who are, for lack of a better word, "lacking" when it comes to their bat/offense. That's why you have seen this organization fill their roster, over the last several years with guys like Castro, AGon, and others.

And Jocketty/Baker are stubborn old school traditionalists, and not afraid to admit it. Offense costs money. And they went into this season believing they could offset that lost offense by emphasizing pitching, defense, and of course - speed. And that is why, when you look at the major offensive categories, this team is near the very bottom in all of MLB in Runs Scored, TBs, BA, OB%, SLG%, and OPS. They're terrible!

Here's the proving ground for me when it comes to Castellini and Jocketty.... Do they see and realize that? Baker I could care less about. There is no changing Baker, and I'll celebrate the day this guy is gone. But Cast/Jocketty, have to see and recognize the glaring weaknesses that exist on this '09 team, and especially from an offensive standpoint, and what holes have to be filled. You can't keep relying on your farm system to provide you with ALL of those answers.

What future moves are they going to make, especially in this upcoming off-season, to address them for 2010? What are they going to do to get us over that hurdle? If they don't address them, THEN we all should be all over them like a school of piranhas on a baby lamb. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-18-2009, 10:01 AM
It reminds me of 1982 with an outfield of Mike Vail, Paul Householder and Larry Biitner.

I was thinking the same thing the other night.

GAC
07-18-2009, 10:07 AM
How would Keppinger look on our bench right now instead of guys like Castillo, Richar, Rosales, and Sutton? ;)

membengal
07-18-2009, 01:05 PM
I was thinking the same thing the other night.

Word.

redsmetz
07-18-2009, 01:23 PM
I swear, it's silly to question the reds organization, because they are infallible and we have been bathed in 10 years of post-season play and 5 world titles since 1999, so why question what the front office does? Just sit back as fans and enjoy all the winning...

I wasn't suggesting with my glib comment that the team's management's moves shouldn't be questioned. My response was directed at a remark that correctly noted, I think, that there is a complexity to decisions that in the black & white world of internet discussion boards gets missed. We work ourselves into a lather over the minutest move and see doom and gloom around every corner.

I see the tenure of Castellini's ownership being very different from the two previous and it's a night and day difference. That's not to say there haven't been missteps. I think firing WK was one, but he had a clear replacement in place, and probably the guy who would have been his first choice anyway. But Jocketty, again IMO, has pretty much followed what Krivsky was doing, stockpiling young talent and building with that.

I know it's a slow plodding process and it follows years and years and years of woeful ownership, but this isn't the same situation as when Schott and Bowden and Linder and Allen were running the show.