Hernandez out 4-6

[GIDP]

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ac953c3a7-8a42-4472-979b-7d2665e0b3d5&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Postgame 5-1 win over Brewers, Reds announced that C Ramon Hernandez (knee) will have surgery Tuesday and miss 4-6 weeks. C Craig Tatum officially will be called up Monday, although Tatum already has arrived in the clubhouse to join team (his MLB debut) in L.A. Monday.

Also: P Jared Burton will be recalled from Louisville and P Robert Manuel will head back to Louisville.

Hernandez did not start the final 3 games of the Brewers series. His knee has bothered him for some time and finally became too much.

"It's been bothering me for two months," Hernandez said after today's game. "I tried to keep playing, but we've got to do something. I can't run. It's tough."

Manager Dusty Baker on Hernandez: "It's not good."




Are we serious hes been playing with a bad knee for 2 months? If we go back 2 months hes started 46 games and 16 games at catcher since June 23. I cant even put into words how disgusted I am at how this team handles things.

[Kingspoint]

Finally. An answer as to why there had been a drastic change to the pitching staff in games he started as Catcher since Votto came back. A painful knee is going to effect how you play Catcher, both mentally, and physically.

It just didn't make any sense why they were 5-11 with him and now 6-2 with Hanigan since Votto got hurt.

When he comes back, I expect that .300 losing record when he starts at Catcher to go away with his injury.

The REDS have a great chance now of making a playoff run. Hanigan is fresh....playing great, working great with the pitching staff, and Hernandez will return to the form he displayed in April and May before Votto got hurt.

Let's go REDS!

Drill those Dodgers!

Let's start winning series again.

[Kingspoint]

Manager Dusty Baker on Hernandez: "It's not good."




Are we serious hes been playing with a bad knee for 2 months? If we go back 2 months hes started 46 games and 16 games at catcher since June 23. I cant even put into words how disgusted I am at how this team handles things.

Yet, Baker continued to throw him out there as the starting Catcher most of the time.

[Farnsie]

Oh man we should get a new club doctor....

Naah just kidding, jokes aside... I can't believe how unlucky we've been with injuries this year! Darnit! Altough, I'm glad Hanigan gets a chance to prove himself...

[NastyBoy]

Let the Ryan Hanigan era begin!!!

[Zimmers]

Im not a dusty basher like a lot of people on this board but if he knew this and kept running him out there that is insane! Hannigan in limited time has produced and has a cannon of a arm. Its not like larue was the backup for ramon. Catcher is the most demanding on the knees and he was starting 6 gamer a week? Unacceptable

[texasdave]

According to reports, Hernandez has a "degenerative-type" knee condition. If that is anything like what happened with Jeff Bagwell's shoulder, I wouldn't count on much from Hernandez if and when he ever comes back. A catcher with a bum knee does not sound promising. Bagwell rehabbed and tried everything but his shoulder continually worsened. He never really contributed much of anything late in his career. It, sadly, ended that great career.
Of course, Houston doesn't have Doc Hollywood.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Hate to hear that. Wonder if it led to that decision not to slide the other day?

Hanigan has a golden opportunity in front of him.

[GIDP]

Hate to hear that. Wonder if it led to that decision not to slide the other day?

Hanigan has a golden opportunity in front of him.

Dusty said it did.

[BigPoppa]

I like Ramon, and hate to see him go out this way, but I'm excited at the thought of Hanigan playing every day. He's earned it.

[kfm]

How many games is our General Manager going to allow this team to play with less than 25 available players. It is one thing for a guy to be nicked up for a couple of days, but for a guy to sit for three days and then be out for four to six weeks is pathetic. I know we don't like to criticize the teflon man on this board but Walt's handling of this roster this season has left a lot to be desired.

[Slyder]

How many games is our General Manager going to allow this team to play with less than 25 available players. It is one thing for a guy to be nicked up for a couple of days, but for a guy to sit for three days and then be out for four to six weeks is pathetic. I know we don't like to criticize the teflon man on this board but Walt's handling of this roster this season has left a lot to be desired.

It's been a thing in Cincy for years. Not just Walt. Many times someone will get "niched" up and sit out a couple days just to end up going on the DL. I forget specific circumstances but that seemed to be how things would happen maybe its something with the medical staff?

[Griffey012]

I am excited to see how Hanigan does in the full time role. Mainly to see if he is capable of producing at the level he has been in a full time role, and also because it has been such an on going debate on this board.

[NeilHamburger]

I respect Hernandez for playing first when Votto went down, and he's been a quality guy since being here, but this is honestly for the best. I think Hanigan is the best catcher on this team, but he's yet to prove it over an extended period. This is his chance, and if he plays well, then going into next year the Reds won't have to worry about catcher. And honestly, I'm already thinking of 2010.

[BigPoppa]

I respect Hernandez for playing first when Votto went down, and he's been a quality guy since being here, but this is honestly for the best. I think Hanigan is the best catcher on this team, but he's yet to prove it over an extended period. This is his chance, and if he plays well, then going into next year the Reds won't have to worry about catcher. And honestly, I'm already thinking of 2010.

I don't think Ramon gets enough credit for the job he did at 1B while Joey was out. He moved to an unfamiliar spot, and played admirably IMO.

[Jerry Narron]

At least they didn't bring Corky Miller up to be the backup catcher.

[jimbo]

Finally. An answer as to why there had been a drastic change to the pitching staff in games he started as Catcher since Votto came back.

Because of his knee? Oh geez......you have to be kidding??

[LouisvilleCARDS]

It's sad it often takes injuries for Dusty to make the right move with the lineup. Maybe Hernandez could have gotten through the year with some rest playing backup catcher - which he should have been regardless with the way Hanigan has played. Looks like Gonzo will be back next week though, so get ready for that hot bat back in the lineup. At least the SS position can't get any worse really.

[BLEEDS]

Because of his knee? Oh geez......you have to be kidding??

Sadly, he is not.

I suppose it was Hanigan's fault that the wheels fell off on Harang the other night too? OR, could it be the SP has just been struggling - regardless of catcher?

It's funny to read though. :p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Captain Hook]

Sadly, he is not.

I suppose it was Hanigan's fault that the wheels fell off on Harang the other night too? OR, could it be the SP has just been struggling - regardless of catcher?

It's funny to read though. :p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I'm surprised that you would bring this up considering that the last game Hernandez caught the Reds gave up 9 runs.The last 3 games combined with Hanigan behind the dish the team allowed only 8 runs.Last time I checked a 2.70 era against a offensive minded team is pretty good.

[BLEEDS]

I'm surprised that you would bring this up considering that the last game Hernandez caught the Reds gave up 9 runs.The last 3 games combined with Hanigan behind the dish the team allowed only 8 runs.Last time I checked a 2.70 era against a offensive minded team is pretty good.

You really think a catcher makes up that much of a difference in ERA? Seriously?
Pitcher, defense, opposing team offense, etc, etc... all should be thrown out the window; just look at the catcher and how many runs were given up, that's your indicator.
?

I thought you were smarter than that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Captain Hook]

You really think a catcher makes up that much of a difference in ERA? Seriously?
Pitcher, defense, opposing team offense, etc, etc... all should be thrown out the window; just look at the catcher and how many runs were given up, that's your indicator.
?

I thought you were smarter than that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

No I don't think the catcher makes that much of a difference.You brought this up by making a point that was unfair and pretty much incorrect.Harang gave up those runs in 1 inning and other then that the pitching this weekend was pretty good.That was all I was saying.

[PhillipsHead]

Well now everyone gets what they want ... more playing time from Hanigan.

Let's see if what the fans want pans out ...

[BLEEDS]

No I don't think the catcher makes that much of a difference.You brought this up by making a point that was unfair and pretty much incorrect.Harang gave up those runs in 1 inning and other then that the pitching this weekend was pretty good.That was all I was saying.

Gotcha.

We are all good.

Hanigan gets 90% of the starts for the rest of the year. Now I suppose we will win 100 games according to Kingspoint... ;)



PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Kingspoint]

According to reports, Hernandez has a "degenerative-type" knee condition. If that is anything like what happened with Jeff Bagwell's shoulder, I wouldn't count on much from Hernandez if and when he ever comes back. A catcher with a bum knee does not sound promising.

Well, there goes my prediction. Actually, my prediction was that Hernandez will return to his April/May form when his injury is over. If his injury doesn't heal, then he won't return to form.

[Kingspoint]

Because of his knee? Oh geez......you have to be kidding??

I'm absolutely not kidding.

When the sun is out and there aren't any clouds, it's sunny, too.

[Kingspoint]

Sadly, he is not.

I suppose it was Hanigan's fault that the wheels fell off on Harang the other night too? OR, could it be the SP has just been struggling - regardless of catcher?



You have a lot to learn about pitchers and catchers. It's that simple.

If you watched the Harang start, you would know exactly what happened.

On the homerun pitch, Hanigan called for the ball inside and down. Harang put it up and over the middle. Harang missed with his pitches that inning, but Hanigan made the correct calls. The color-analyst for the REDS said the exact same thing.

You'll probably never understand the dynamics involved with a catcher's handling of a pitcher and the responsibility and results a catcher has with the outcome of a game. You're at the infantile stage of development in your understanding of this. 99.9% of the posters on this website including myself, aren't even at the 1st-grade level of understanding of this.

It's easy to laugh at what you don't understand, but please try to accept that you have a lot to learn in this area. You'll appreciate the game more once you do that.

[Kingspoint]

Hanigan gets 90% of the starts for the rest of the year. Now I suppose we will win 100 games according to Kingspoint... ;)





We will start winning series again. If we won 56% of the remaining games, that would be an amazing turnaround, considering we had won only 43% of the games since Votto came back, not counting the last 3 since Hernandez has been permanently gone.

43% to 56% would be a "dramatic" turnaround, when a team is going one direction and then to go the other direction. And, when the team has lost it's #1 homerun hitter in Bruce, and a Catcher in Hernandez that still hits well. Tatum is no Hernandez, who was hitting about .300 in July.

But, the proof will be in the runs given up. We now have, according to Doug Dirt, the "worst defensive 3rd Baseman in the League" playing 3rd every day, so that should make it more difficult to keep the runs down. We also have Gomes and/or Nix playing outfield instead of Bruce, and that clearly is a huge defensive hole in Right Field, so that should make it hard to keep the runs down.

But, I'll bet you anything, that Hanigan will continue to keep the runs-per-game to 4 runs or less for the remainder of his starts the rest of the season. That's a far cry better than the 5.5 runs-per-game that Hernandez was giving up in his 16 starts at Catcher since Votto returned.

[BLEEDS]

You're crazy.

You think Harang let's the catcher decide what pitch he's going to pitch? Give me a break. The pitcher does what he wants, all he has to do is SHAKE HIS HEAD and get a new sign.

Same thing with Arroyo. He's going to throw what he wants.
He's struggled early and looked better so far this second half. Hanigan catches him pretty much 99% of the time, this year.
But, year-in, year-out Arrroyo is pretty much the same streaky, inconsistent pitcher, especially from the start of the second half of the season.
IT DON'T MATTER WHO IS CATCHING HIM!!

It MIGHT make a bit of difference in younger pitchers, where the catcher can help them along a bit. That might explain Johnny Cueto's improvement this year - but of course that would fly in the face of your little theory. Volquez was looking better too after struggling a bit early with homeruns until he got hurt.
I don't really know if that has more to do with "catcher defense" than it does with his ability to speak Spanish and thereby getting the pitchers to a level of comfort they may not have had before.

Hanigan is a better hitter, and better at throwing guys out, but there "defense" and ability to call a game you don't have the slightest clue on.

Those "stats", especially over a small sample size chosen at random, are all mere coincidence, nothing more nothing less.
You lose a ton of credibility trying to make them into anything else.

Now you get to see your silly theory blown to bits here in a second, as Hanigan will be catching EVERYBODY and the results won't be any different.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[BLEEDS]

But, I'll bet you anything, that Hanigan will continue to keep the runs-per-game to 4 runs or less for the remainder of his starts the rest of the season. That's a far cry better than the 5.5 runs-per-game that Hernandez was giving up in his 16 starts at Catcher since Votto returned.

Good thing you're not a professional gambler, you'd be broke.

I'll take your bet, name your terms.

I seriously can't believe you actually believe yourself when you type the words "runs per game that the CATCHER is giving up"...
It's comedy gold.

Try this for a little light reading will ya?:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/6/19/919142/please-everyone-stop-using

or this:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1489


PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Kingspoint]

You're crazy.

You think Harang let's the catcher decide what pitch he's going to pitch? Give me a break. The pitcher does what he wants, all he has to do is SHAKE HIS HEAD and get a new sign.



Getting past that would be your first lesson advancing you past the infantile stage of development.

Email Dan Wilson and advance to the next level.

[Kingspoint]

I'll take your bet, name your terms.



Pizza Hut Specialty Pizza with the works at the end of the season.

Be glad to serve it up if Hanigans starts from 7/17 to the end of the season produce 4.00 runs per game or more.

[BLEEDS]

Pizza Hut Specialty Pizza with the works at the end of the season.

Be glad to serve it up if Hanigans starts from 7/17 to the end of the season produce 4.00 runs per game or more.

Serve it up? Do you work at a Pizza Hut?

Not sure where "all over" is, so where do I go to place my order?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[bounty37h]

You really think a catcher makes up that much of a difference in ERA? Seriously?
Pitcher, defense, opposing team offense, etc, etc... all should be thrown out the window; just look at the catcher and how many runs were given up, that's your indicator.
?

I thought you were smarter than that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I think your both being hardheaded just not wanting to concede the other might have a point. Yes, Bleeds is very correct that there are many factors involved, other teams hitters of course, ballpark, weather, etc. But to ignore what the catcher does bring also plays in-how he sets up, calls the game,sets the pace etc also plays a role. Your both right, your both wrong.

[BigPoppa]

I think your both being hardheaded just not wanting to concede the other might have a point. Yes, Bleeds is very correct that there are many factors involved, other teams hitters of course, ballpark, weather, etc. But to ignore what the catcher does bring also plays in-how he sets up, calls the game,sets the pace etc also plays a role. Your both right, your both wrong.


What he said. :thumbup: :reds:

[Plus Plus]

I think your both being hardheaded just not wanting to concede the other might have a point. Yes, Bleeds is very correct that there are many factors involved, other teams hitters of course, ballpark, weather, etc. But to ignore what the catcher does bring also plays in-how he sets up, calls the game,sets the pace etc also plays a role. Your both right, your both wrong.

Agreed. Catchers have an impact, but not +-3 points of era. Maybe something like +- 0.5 points, but not 1.67era vs 5.50 era or whatever the stat was. A lot of it boils down to the pitcher too. Johnny Bench couldn't have saved Micah Owings last night.

[Kingspoint]

Serve it up? Do you work at a Pizza Hut?

Not sure where "all over" is, so where do I go to place my order?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I figured Pizza Hut was a much better choice to Domino's. So, is it a bet? At the end of the season, we can tell the other where to have the pizza delivered.

[Kingspoint]

Agreed. Catchers have an impact, but not +-3 points of era. Maybe something like +- 0.5 points, but not 1.67era vs 5.50 era or whatever the stat was. A lot of it boils down to the pitcher too. Johnny Bench couldn't have saved Micah Owings last night.

Of course all that is true.

[BLEEDS]

So, is it a bet? At the end of the season, we can tell the other where to have the pizza delivered.

Yep, I said name your terms.



I'll take your bet, name your terms.


I like Pizza.

PEACE

-BLEEDS