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Chip R
07-21-2009, 09:14 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090720/SPT04/307200102/Phillips+screwup+draws+Dusty+s+ire

Phillips' mistake draws Dusty's ire

Reds blow 3-0 lead, then Ramirez homer settles it

By John Fay
jfay@enquirer.com
LOS ANGELES – It didn’t look like a big play at the time. Just a case of Brandon being Brandon.

Brandon Phillips was thrown out at second for the first out of the game Monday night. The Reds took a 3-0 lead on the same play.

But when you look back on what would become a 7-5 Reds loss to the Los Angeles Dodgers, it turned out to be a huge play.

"We should have gotten more than that in the first inning,” Reds manager Dusty Baker said. “You got to hustle on that ball there. It’s a totally different inning. That was a rally-killer for us.”

The Reds were facing Jason Schmidt, who was making his first start in 25 months, and it looked like he might not get out of the first inning.

Willy Taveras led off the game with a deep drive to left-center. He cruised in with a triple. Baker came out and argued that it was a home run. The umpires went in and looked at it on video replay. They eventually ruled it a triple.

Jerry Hairston Jr. doubled off the wall in left to get Taveras in. Joey Votto hit one off the wall in right for a long single. Hairston had to hold at third. Votto stole second. He went to third, and Hairston scored, on Russell Martin's throwing error.

Phillips hit a very catchable ball to right. It fell in front of Andre Ethier. Phillips, who did not break hard out of the batter’s box, was out at second. Votto scored to make it 3-0.

“I was happy to get the RBI in," Phillips said. “I was happy I finally did something with runners in scoring position. I hit the ball to the outfield. I was like ‘damn, I missed it.’ I put my head down.

“I didn’t know he missed until I looked back up. I could’ve done worse and not gotten the run in at all.”

“I (messed) up." Phillips admitted. "That’s my second time this year not hustling. It won’t happen again. I (messed) up.”

Baker was still livid after the game.

“You’ve got to play hard all the time,” Baker said. “That was big, real big. We had him on the ropes. We killed the rally. . . . We end up losing by two runs.”

Phillips has a history of this.

“Hey, man, we’ve all talked to him until we’re blue in the face,” Baker said. “This was going on long before I got here.”

The play became big quickly.

Micah Owings could not hold the early lead. He went five innings, allowing seven runs on nine hits.

It was the Reds' 10th straight loss in Dodger Stadium. They haven’t won in L.A. since Brandon Claussen beat the Dodgers July 28, 2005.

Schmidt would get out of the first without further damage.

“We were taking strikes and swinging at balls,” Baker said.

Rafael Furcal started Dodger first with a bunt double. He just popped it over Edwin Encarnacion's head. Russell Martin followed with an RBI single.

Micah Owings struck out Manny Ramirez on three pitches.

Ethier followed with a drive to right that Dickerson misplayed into a double. Casey Blake doubled in two runs to tie it. James Loney singled Blake in, and the Dodgers led 4-3.

“We score three in the first,” Owings said. “I’ve got to get us back to the dugout. I didn’t do it tonight.”

Owings got two quick outs to start the second. Martin singled. This time, Owings fell behind Ramirez 2-0.

Ramirez launched one to left for his 10th and it was 6-3.

The Reds would not get another hit until Phillips singled with two out in the fifth. He stole second. But Laynce Nix popped out to strand him.

Ethier made it a 7-3 game in the bottom of the fifth with his 19th home run of year, a no doubter to right.

The Reds scored two in the eighth. Votto led off with a walk. Phillips singled.

The Dodgers brought in Ramon Troncosco to face Nix. Nix hit one off second baseman Juan Castro’s glove. It was scored an error. Votto scored and Phillips went to third. Encarnacion hit into a double play. Phillips scored but the air was out of the rally.

bucksfan2
07-21-2009, 09:24 AM
I am a big Phillip fan but he has mental lapses like this way too often. His not hustling and smiling when he was tagged out is unacceptable. IMO if Phillips is on 2nd base, the Reds chase Schmidt before the first inning is over. Dusty should have pulled Phillips after he did that. I don't care about embarrassing your players or not, you can't allow them to dog it like Phillips did.

Roy Tucker
07-21-2009, 09:34 AM
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of yanking a guy in the middle of a game. Its a kneejerk "get off my lawn" kind of thing to do (like something I'd do :) ).

But if I were Dusty, I would have benched him in the next 1/2 inning. I don't think its going to alter Brandon's behavior (he is who he is) but its more a message to the young guys on the team as in "we don't play that way around here and this is what happens to you when you do". I don't remember exactly how many times this has happened, but its past just warning him about it. Dusty needs to put some teeth in it.

Kc61
07-21-2009, 09:38 AM
I am a big Phillip fan but he has mental lapses like this way too often. His not hustling and smiling when he was tagged out is unacceptable. IMO if Phillips is on 2nd base, the Reds chase Schmidt before the first inning is over. Dusty should have pulled Phillips after he did that. I don't care about embarrassing your players or not, you can't allow them to dog it like Phillips did.

It's good Dusty spoke up. I don't agree that Phillips has mental lapses that often. He has them occasionally, it's not good, he should fix it. I don't care if he smiles, that's just his way, he was embarassed and rightly so. Dusty made his point, he handled it correctly.

But Dusty shouldn't blame the loss on Phillips who got three hits last night.

It was the starting pitcher who gave up a three run lead and threw Manny Ramirez a meatball to make it 6-3 in an eyelash, as they say.

Maybe Owings has a gripe that he was put at the end of the line after the ASB and had ten days rest before that outing. I'm sure it isn't optimal for a starter.

But that performance last night, with an early lead, was not major league caliber. It wasn't even AAA caliber.

Far East
07-21-2009, 10:01 AM
...But that performance last night, with an early lead, was not major league caliber. It wasn't even AAA caliber.
The difference is that Micah was probably trying his hardest, Brandon probably was not.

I like, however, that Phillips says that it will never happen again.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 10:02 AM
It's good Dusty spoke up. I don't agree that Phillips has mental lapses that often. He has them occasionally, it's not good, he should fix it. I don't care if he smiles, that's just his way, he was embarassed and rightly so. Dusty made his point, he handled it correctly.

But Dusty shouldn't blame the loss on Phillips who got three hits last night.

It was the starting pitcher who gave up a three run lead and threw Manny Ramirez a meatball to make it 6-3 in an eyelash, as they say.

Maybe Owings has a gripe that he was put at the end of the line after the ASB and had ten days rest before that outing. I'm sure it isn't optimal for a starter.

But that performance last night, with an early lead, was not major league caliber. It wasn't even AAA caliber.


If Dusty wants to send a message to Brandon, he'll bench him for the next couple of games. But I doubt he will. Still, he must have been really upset if he called him out like that to the writers.

I don't think he's blaming the loss on Brandon. I think he was upset and trying to get his point across.

Hap
07-21-2009, 10:04 AM
I like, however, that Phillips says that it will never happen again.

And he will, of course, say the exact same thing next time the exact same thing happens.

edabbs44
07-21-2009, 10:08 AM
And he will, of course, say the exact same thing next time the exact same thing happens.


09/15/07 7:28 PM ET

Notes: Phillips forgets to hustle
Slugger admires a near homer, called out trying to advance
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

MILWAUKEE -- For a few moments on Friday, Brandon Phillips thought he had become a 30-30 player.
The lapse of judgment proved costly.

With a runner on first base in the fifth inning vs. the Brewers, Phillips hit a drive that appeared to be headed over the right-center-field fence. He was in a slow home run trot and rounding first base by the time he realized the ball had bounced off the wall.

"I didn't get all of it, but I thought it had enough," Phillips said on Saturday afternoon.

The Brewers, trailing 5-2 at the time, easily threw Phillips out at second base and he was credited with a single. Cincinnati didn't score in the inning and barely held on to win the game by a 6-5 score.

Back in the dugout, Phillips approached interim manager Pete Mackanin before anything had to be said to him.

"I apologized about it," Phillips said. "That wasn't really like me. I've been hustling all year. It cost us a run, too. That's what ticked me off more than anything. A play like that could have cost us the game. I'm glad we won the game because I would have been really ticked off."

"He came up to me and said something. We spoke," Mackanin said. "We'll talk some more. It doesn't go unnoticed. It's addressed."

Phillips, who entered Saturday with 31 steals, has 29 home runs this season. He's trying to join Alfonso Soriano as the only second basemen in Major League history to get 30 homers and 30 stolen bases in a season. Barry Larkin was the last Reds player to achieve the feat in 1996.

It has Phillips pressing lately to hit the milestone homer.

"It would have been nice to get over it so I can go and finish the year," said Phillips, who entered batting .292 with 88 RBIs and 298 total bases. "I just have to let it come instead of trying to make it come. I'm not going to lie. I've been trying."




Posted on Fri, May. 1, 2009


WEEKLINGS

Quote of the week
Reds manager Dusty Baker, on second baseman Brandon Phillips' failure to hustle on Sunday, turning a potential double into a single: "It was addressed quickly. I've already addressed it. He has overall been running harder than he did in the past. You agree? You haven't noticed? Well, maybe it's because he hasn't been on base enough to run to be noticed."

That's called sarcasm, boys and girls. Phillips is batting .188.

BCubb2003
07-21-2009, 10:09 AM
It's odd because Phillips usually plays with such joy, as if he owns the field. He'll steal two bases at a time. He doesn't have to run out the walks like Rosales, just run out the batted balls.

RichRed
07-21-2009, 10:12 AM
It's just Branny being Branny.

hebroncougar
07-21-2009, 10:13 AM
And I'd be surprised if he's not in the lineup batting fourth tonight...................

Chip R
07-21-2009, 10:13 AM
For the record, I don't think Votto exactly busted his hump out of the batters box on that single. Hard to believe someone with decent speed like Votto couldn't have made 2nd on that hit.

alexad
07-21-2009, 10:15 AM
The biggest problem with this team is there is no leader. IT should not have been Dusty to lay into Phillips. We need a leader who is waiting at the dugout steps on him and just ripping into him. The leaders on this team sit out in the bullpen everynight. Rhoades and Weathers. Maybe Dusty should have them sit in the dugout until the 6th inning. That way if something goes down like last night, someone can rip some serious butt for not hustling.

It upsets me that Phillips did what he did last night and then smiled about it. This after Arroyo and Weathers have publicly said that these next 6 games are important to this team to determine if upstairs keeps them together or sells them off. Same thing coming from Dusty in his talk with the team.

Phillips just added more worry to this team by players wondering if they are going to be traded.

Phillips seems to be a good player, but he is starting to act like our former 2nd baseman, Pokey Reese. Phillips needs to grow up or realize he needs to go. I think we are starting to see why the Expos and Indians gave up on him. Attitude is a big part of a player and right now Phillips is not providing the winning attitude. (He smiled the other day when he got picked off like it was no big deal)

So this has happened to Phillips twice in the past few days. Maybe it is time for a blanket party on Phillips to get his attention and focus back to winning games all the time.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 10:20 AM
The biggest problem with this team is there is no leader.


Brandon and the mediots said he was supposed to be the leader.

Roy Tucker
07-21-2009, 10:23 AM
For the record, I don't think Votto exactly busted his hump out of the batters box on that single. Hard to believe someone with decent speed like Votto couldn't have made 2nd on that hit.

Hairston was on 2nd and hung around the bag till he was sure that the ball was over the RF head. He only went to 3rd. I think Votto didn't go to 2nd because of that (with an emphasis on "think", FSN Ohio's camera work wasn't very good on any of the baserunning last night).

Jpup
07-21-2009, 10:36 AM
The biggest problem on the Reds is there aren't enough good players.

15fan
07-21-2009, 10:43 AM
Good thing Phillips doesn't play for Bobby Cox.

flyer85
07-21-2009, 10:45 AM
The biggest problem on the Reds is there aren't enough good players.
and hustling isn't going to the change that. I am not saying players shouldn't hustle, just that talents trumps it.

The real problem wasn't that he didn't hustle as much as getting himself thrown out. Phillips has an issue with at first not hustling and then compounding the problem by trying to take the extra base and getting thrown out.

BTW, I really don't want to hear Dusty whining about this. If you don't like it, don't just talk about it, actually do something.

RANDY IN INDY
07-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Play the game. Help your team. It takes zero talent to hustle. It isn't just Phillips. Most players today are more concerned about "stylin'" for the cameras than playing the game the right way. There is no hammer. Once, teams demanded it. Now, the salary structure is such that managers and coaches don't make enough money to enforce it. They are likely to be gone, far sooner than the player. The majority of the star players are into the stylin' so being a leader in that regard is beginning to be a lost intangible as well. One thing is for sure. It is really ugly when it happens.

TheNext44
07-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Hairston was on 2nd and hung around the bag till he was sure that the ball was over the RF head. He only went to 3rd. I think Votto didn't go to 2nd because of that (with an emphasis on "think", FSN Ohio's camera work wasn't very good on any of the baserunning last night).

That had something to do with it. But Votto clearly was caught looking at his blast. He did hustle once he left the box, but he definitely was admiring it. Maybe with Hairston waiting, Votto never would have made it to second anyway, but he was in the box for a good one to two extra seconds as he watched it almost go out.

Screwball
07-21-2009, 10:56 AM
At least Rosales woulda been out at 3rd.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 10:58 AM
The biggest problem on the Reds is there aren't enough good players.


That's very true.

I don't have as much of a problem with the lack of hustle as others do. Especially if it's something that happens on a rare occasion. But, while Brandon is a fine player and plays with enthusiasm and joy, this happens more than it should. What's especially irritating is that Brandon and the media that covers the Reds have put the mantle of "team leader" on his shoulders. If he's going to be the leader he needs to act like the leader. It makes it difficult for him to set an example for younger players when he does that.

VR
07-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Not sure BP gets it.


I could’ve done worse and not gotten the run in at all

When he swung at that 3-0 ball a month ago...his 1st response was "It would have been pretty special if it was a hit"

REDSEER
07-21-2009, 11:02 AM
Play the game. Help your team. It takes zero talent to hustle. It isn't just Phillips. Most players today are more concerned about "stylin'" for the cameras than playing the game the right way. There is no hammer. Once, teams demanded it. Now, the salary structure is such that managers and coaches don't make enough money to enforce it. They are likely to be gone, far sooner than the player. The majority of the star players are into the stylin' so being a leader in that regard is beginning to be a lost intangible as well. One thing is for sure. It is really ugly when it happens.
Agreed. Teams would rather have a team full of Brandon Phillips than a team full of David Ecksteins and Adam Rosales, and players know that. It doesn't take hustling to put up good numbers and get paid....superior talent can do that.

Sure, the fans can applaud the scrappiness of Ryan Freel or the sprinting to the position of Adam Rosales, but it's the players that have the talent and the mental attitude (Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, etc.) that become fan favorites

Nasty_Boy
07-21-2009, 11:06 AM
That's very true.

I don't have as much of a problem with the lack of hustle as others do. Especially if it's something that happens on a rare occasion. But, while Brandon is a fine player and plays with enthusiasm and joy, this happens more than it should. What's especially irritating is that Brandon and the media that covers the Reds have put the mantle of "team leader" on his shoulders. If he's going to be the leader he needs to act like the leader. It makes it difficult for him to set an example for younger players when he does that.

+1 :beerme:

I'm not big on all out guys like Rosales, but Brandon just seems to have this I've gotta look cool doing what I'm doing attitude. Like he wants to find a way to shine the spotlight on himself. I'm just amazed that PDoc hasn't written an articles blaming BP for the losing... :D

The media does seem to give BP a free pass, but I see that starting to go away slowly. I'm not going to bring up players from the past but if this would have been Edwin, he would have been benched and talk radio would be ready to string the guy up.

WMR
07-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Not sure BP gets it.



When he swung at that 3-0 ball a month ago...his 1st response was "It would have been pretty special if it was a hit"

I think it's pretty clear Phillips isn't a Rhodes Scholar.

Dusty should just shut up. Quit *****ing about it to the media and jerk his ass out of the game. Maybe that will make an impression because this has happened over and over again with BP.

M2
07-21-2009, 11:26 AM
You know what bad teams do? They grouse about the guy who went 3-4 when they lose. They magnify every mistake made by their best players.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen a ballplayer who does the exact right thing all the time. These things are easily forgotten when your club wins more than it loses, but when the team is 20-28 since Memorial Day then the otherwise forgivable flaws of your best player become cardinal sins.

If Brandon Phillips is going to play well, then it's going to be all his fault ... at least while he's on this team.

flyer85
07-21-2009, 11:28 AM
You know what bad teams do?
or they whine but don't actually do anything(other than talk) to address the problems.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 11:30 AM
I think it's pretty clear Phillips isn't a Rhodes Scholar.

Dusty should just shut up. Quit *****ing about it to the media and jerk his ass out of the game. Maybe that will make an impression because this has happened over and over again with BP.


I thought one incident recently was typical of Brandon. The Reds were playing StL and it was that Sunday game where they were getting the crap beat out of them. It was about the 6th or 7th inning and Brandon hit a roller up the 1st base line about 60 feet. Pujols fields it and waited for Brandon to get to him so he could tag him out. Brandon jogged a few steps and then took a right turn to the dugout. Pujols stood there for a few seconds and then went and tagged the bag. It almost looked like he was in disbelief that Brandon did that. I don't think anyone expected him to sprint into the tag since he clearly was going to be out but I think they at least expected him to jog up the line until Pujols tagged him.

WMR
07-21-2009, 11:35 AM
You know what bad teams do? They grouse about the guy who went 3-4 when they lose. They magnify every mistake made by their best players.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen a ballplayer who does the exact right thing all the time. These things are easily forgotten when your club wins more than it loses, but when the team is 20-28 since Memorial Day then the otherwise forgivable flaws of your best player become cardinal sins.

If Brandon Phillips is going to play well, then it's going to be all his fault ... at least while he's on this team.

The Reds have got a lot of young guys who are watching every move BP makes.

This season has been over for a while now and letting the young guys see "the best player" pull such bush league CRAP and "get away with it" is horrible for the future of the team.

Is anyone saying that "everything" is "all BP's fault"??? Is asking Brandon to be a big boy and be responsible for his own stupidity/laziness/showboating on the field somehow equal blaming him for the Taveras acquisition? No.

durl
07-21-2009, 11:35 AM
You know what bad teams do? They grouse about the guy who went 3-4 when they lose. They magnify every mistake made by their best players.

It's very easy to say that Phillips had a great night at the plate and be done with it, but his out didn't have to happen. "Brandon, you hit .750 for the night so we'll just not discuss your lack of hustle and potentially killing a big inning that might have helped us win the game." His lack of going 4-4 isn't the problem, it's a lack of keeping his head in the game at a time that could have made a big difference. Again.

After numerous occasions, Phillips still hasn't learned that you never know when the defense will let your single turn into a double. He doesn't have to sprint like Rosales, but it never hurts to try each and every time.

WMR
07-21-2009, 11:37 AM
I thought one incident recently was typical of Brandon. The Reds were playing StL and it was that Sunday game where they were getting the crap beat out of them. It was about the 6th or 7th inning and Brandon hit a roller up the 1st base line about 60 feet. Pujols fields it and waited for Brandon to get to him so he could tag him out. Brandon jogged a few steps and then took a right turn to the dugout. Pujols stood there for a few seconds and then went and tagged the bag. It almost looked like he was in disbelief that Brandon did that. I don't think anyone expected him to sprint into the tag since he clearly was going to be out but I think they at least expected him to jog up the line until Pujols tagged him.

:lol:

I think even Griffey would've jogged to first.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 11:49 AM
Not sure BP gets it.



When he swung at that 3-0 ball a month ago...his 1st response was "It would have been pretty special if it was a hit"

That is Brandon Phillips. That is who he is and nothing is going to change that. He has a poor attitude that is a "better than you" attitude. It's good to be confident, but arrogance can become a problem.

bucksfan2
07-21-2009, 11:52 AM
You know what bad teams do? They grouse about the guy who went 3-4 when they lose. They magnify every mistake made by their best players.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen a ballplayer who does the exact right thing all the time. These things are easily forgotten when your club wins more than it loses, but when the team is 20-28 since Memorial Day then the otherwise forgivable flaws of your best player become cardinal sins.

If Brandon Phillips is going to play well, then it's going to be all his fault ... at least while he's on this team.

You know what bad teams do? They do exactly what Brandon Phillips did.

I agree with you that not everybody is perfect all the time. The baseball season is a long grind and it wears on you. But Phillips has had this problem over the course of his career as a Red. That play was a big break for the Reds and Philips blew it because he was bush leaguing it. If you find that acceptable then that is your prerogative. I find that the good teams don't play like that. And if they do the player is disciplined either by his coach or his team. I remember last year when BJ Upton has a problem dogging it and Madden sat him down. IIRC he pulled him out of the game saying "I like BJ, but he can't play like that".

Chip R
07-21-2009, 11:53 AM
You know what bad teams do? They grouse about the guy who went 3-4 when they lose. They magnify every mistake made by their best players.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen a ballplayer who does the exact right thing all the time. These things are easily forgotten when your club wins more than it loses, but when the team is 20-28 since Memorial Day then the otherwise forgivable flaws of your best player become cardinal sins.

If Brandon Phillips is going to play well, then it's going to be all his fault ... at least while he's on this team.

We're not talking about striking out or making an error here. We're talking about something that is in Brandon's control. It's an error of omission rather than an error of comission. The latter is forgivable as long as you are making an effort. The former is something you can control.

If this was something that happened once or twice then it would be nitpicking - especially with a player who plays as well as Brandon. But this happens time and again. He always says it won't happen again but it does. Brandon could absolutely own this town if he busted his ass like Pujols does and it's absolutely within his power to do that.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 11:54 AM
You know what bad teams do? They do exactly what Brandon Phillips did.

I agree with you that not everybody is perfect all the time. The baseball season is a long grind and it wears on you. But Phillips has had this problem over the course of his career as a Red. That play was a big break for the Reds and Philips blew it because he was bush leaguing it. If you find that acceptable then that is your prerogative. I find that the good teams don't play like that. And if they do the player is disciplined either by his coach or his team. I remember last year when BJ Upton has a problem dogging it and Madden sat him down. IIRC he pulled him out of the game saying "I like BJ, but he can't play like that".

You would never see Derek Jeter do something like that. He has more pride in himself, his team, and his fans than to do that.

WMR
07-21-2009, 11:57 AM
You would never see Derek Jeter do something like that. He has more pride in himself, his team, and his fans than to do that.

You know what, I'd go so far as to say that you wouldn't see that out of a team that Derek Jeter is ON. And if it did happen, I bet it would only happen once. I wonder how many times BP would try his crap if he knew he'd get to have a personal, not-too-kind meeting with A-Rod and Jeter after he got back to the dugout?

I think Jeter has been highly overrated for quite some time now, but you absolutely cannot deny his professionalism.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 12:00 PM
You know what, I'd go so far as to say that you wouldn't see that out of a team that Derek Jeter is ON. And if it did happen, I bet it would only happen once. I wonder how many times BP would try his crap if he knew he'd get to have a personal, not-too-kind meeting with A-Rod and Jeter after he got back to the dugout?

I think Jeter has been highly overrated for quite some time now, but you absolutely cannot deny his professionalism.

It's another discussion, but I don't think Derek Jeter is overrated at all. He's the heart and soul of the Yankees. He's a pretty darn good player as well.

WMR
07-21-2009, 12:01 PM
It's another discussion, but I don't think Derek Jeter is overrated at all. He's the heart and soul of the Yankees. He's a pretty darn good player as well.

If I had a nickel for every time a Yank fan told me those exact same words.....

I'd have a bunch of nickels. ;)

M2
07-21-2009, 12:03 PM
You know what bad teams do? They do exactly what Brandon Phillips did.

Then give him away for a bag of balls if he's such an anchor.

osuceltic
07-21-2009, 12:03 PM
Unfortunately, this has become an organizational problem. The Reds have on their roster and continue to produce from the system players who don't play the game the right way--and I mean effort, awareness, fundamentals, etc.

The best organizations set a philosophy, and that philosophy is taught and enforced up and down the organization. Not coincidentally, those organizations tend to be successful over the long haul -- think Cardinals, Twins, Braves.

The Reds produce long-time minor leaguers who don't back up plays (Dickerson), don't cover their position (Roenicke), and veteran players who don't hustle consistently (Phillips, Encarnacion), are terrible baserunners (Bruce), and can't field their position (too many to name).

Of course they talk about these problems. But they never do anything about it. It's not just Dusty. It's the entire organization, from the minor leagues on up. It's incredibly frustrating.

Unassisted
07-21-2009, 12:05 PM
The Reds have got a lot of young guys who are watching every move BP makes.

This season has been over for a while now and letting the young guys see "the best player" pull such bush league CRAP and "get away with it" is horrible for the future of the team.
It's also the kind of thing that will inspire management to replace Dusty with a disciplinarian. For those who aren't fans of Dusty, it's exactly the right thing for the future of the team.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 12:05 PM
Unfortunately, this has become an organizational problem. The Reds have on their roster and continue to produce from the system players who don't play the game the right way--and I mean effort, awareness, fundamentals, etc.

The best organizations set a philosophy, and that philosophy is taught and enforced up and down the organization. Not coincidentally, those organizations tend to be successful over the long haul -- think Cardinals, Twins, Braves.

The Reds produce long-time minor leaguers who don't back up plays (Dickerson), don't cover their position (Roenicke), and veteran players who don't hustle consistently (Phillips, Encarnacion), are terrible baserunners (Bruce), and can't field their position (too many to name).

Of course they talk about these problems. But they never do anything about it. It's not just Dusty. It's the entire organization, from the minor leagues on up. It's incredibly frustrating.

a lot of teams have those problems. you just don't watch them everyday.

RANDY IN INDY
07-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Wish that players today would look to the past and players like Joe Dimaggio who was once asked why he always played so hard.
"I always think, there might be someone out there in the stands who's never seen me play."

flyer85
07-21-2009, 12:10 PM
The Reds have got a lot of young guys who are watching every move BP makes.

This season has been over for a while now and letting the young guys see "the best player" pull such bush league CRAP and "get away with it" is horrible for the future of the team. .what they are seeing and taking note of is that BP dogs it from to time and there are NO consequences.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 12:10 PM
Then give him away for a bag of balls if he's such an anchor.


No one wants to do that. All people want him to do is bust his butt so he doesn't embarrass himself like he did last night. And if he's going to talk the talk about being a leader he needs to walk the walk.

M2
07-21-2009, 12:12 PM
a lot of teams have those problems. you just don't watch them everyday.

Exactly. Albert Pujols and Derek Jeter don't bust it 100% all the time either, but they're deified so when they lope it to 1B nobody makes a comment on it.

PuffyPig
07-21-2009, 12:12 PM
Maybe Owings has a gripe that he was put at the end of the line after the ASB and had ten days rest before that outing.

Well, if he had a gripe, he sure proved them wrong.....

Jpup
07-21-2009, 12:18 PM
Exactly. Albert Pujols and Derek Jeter don't bust it 100% all the time either, but they're deified so when they lope it to 1B nobody makes a comment on it.

I've never seen Jeter not play hard. never. Pujols, I can't speak on. Jeter always runs hard to 1st base.

M2
07-21-2009, 12:20 PM
I've never seen Jeter not play hard. never. Pujols, I can't speak on. Jeter always runs hard to 1st base.

My wife is a mondo Yankees fan. I've seen a large portion of Jeter's career. I've seen him jog to 1B plenty of times.

Roy Tucker
07-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Actually, my problem is more with Dusty. He needs to call Brandon into his office, read him the riot act, and then sit his butt down for a game. When the press asks why, say "he didn't hustle and we've talked to him about it".

Grousing about it to the press and alluding to it was there before he came seems weak. If Brandon is in the starting lineup tonight, then we'll know how much teeth Dusty puts into his displeasure.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 12:38 PM
My wife is a mondo Yankees fan. I've seen a large portion of Jeter's career. I've seen him jog to 1B plenty of times.

same here, I'm must have blinked. I've been a Yankees fan longer than Jeter has played and I've never seen it. I would be surprised, but I'll take your word for it.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 12:38 PM
Actually, my problem is more with Dusty. He needs to call Brandon into his office, read him the riot act, and then sit his butt down for a game. When the press asks why, say "he didn't hustle and we've talked to him about it".

Grousing about it to the press and alluding to it was there before he came seems weak. If Brandon is in the starting lineup tonight, then we'll know how much teeth Dusty puts into his displeasure.


Yep. That's on Dusty. If he feels it's a problem and they have talked to him about it before, he should have done something about it by now. But what'll happen is that he'll talk to Brandon about it, Brandon will tell him he will sin no more and Dusty will pat him on the head and write his name in the 4th spot tonight.

CrackerJack
07-21-2009, 12:59 PM
The Cincinnati obsession with "hustle" continues....

So they would've lost by one run instead of two...

To say Brandon doesn't play hard or care is ignorant, "hustle" is awfully ambiguous - his problem is that he gets too emotionally wrapped up in the result of his AB's and pouts or puts his head down or is busy throwing his bat...

The guy plays every night, produces consistently, is diving and making catches or sliding into bases all the time.

If he needs some coaching on controlling his emotions after AB's -then so be it. He gets too emotionally caught up in his performances - in baseball an even keel can help, but he seems to be very passionate about his play and the result of games. I'll take that every day if it's what makes him who he is on the field.

So it amazes me people in this city continue to bash him whenever he makes a mistake (what is this, the 2nd or 3rd time he's done this all year?) ...but refuse to give him credit for all the things he does well.

Lance McAlister is the worst - a sports groupie who has it in for Phillips and has never really said a good word about him...ever.

"Hustle this, hustle that," I am so tired of the focus being on one scapegoated player. He had little to do with the loss - the 7 runs given up by the 5th or 6th inning had everything to do with it. The guy went 3-4 for at the plate!!

If this were, say, Austin Kearns, he'd be getting praised for "being careful" or something.

This city ridiculous and so darned backwards.

osuceltic
07-21-2009, 01:22 PM
a lot of teams have those problems. you just don't watch them everyday.

Of course a lot of teams have those problems. Some don't. That's why they stand out. And a big reason why they are so consistently successful.

I'm not saying the Twins never make mistakes. Of course they do. You'll even see their players fail to run out a ball from time to time. But it doesn't happen often. They make sure of that.

The Reds just talk about it.

I'll never understand this board. I can't believe people who follow the game as closely as everyone here would shrug their shoulders at a lack of hustle or even in many cases roll their eyes when a guy hustles. I guess it just shows that following the game and understanding the game are two different things.

Jpup
07-21-2009, 01:30 PM
Of course a lot of teams have those problems. Some don't. That's why they stand out. And a big reason why they are so consistently successful.

I'm not saying the Twins never make mistakes. Of course they do. You'll even see their players fail to run out a ball from time to time. But it doesn't happen often. They make sure of that.

The Reds just talk about it.

I'll never understand this board. I can't believe people who follow the game as closely as everyone here would shrug their shoulders at a lack of hustle or even in many cases roll their eyes when a guy hustles. I guess it just shows that following the game and understanding the game are two different things.

it pisses me off and I don't shrug my shoulders.

bucksfan2
07-21-2009, 01:40 PM
The Cincinnati obsession with "hustle" continues....

So they would've lost by one run instead of two...

To say Brandon doesn't play hard or care is ignorant, "hustle" is awfully ambiguous - his problem is that he gets too emotionally wrapped up in the result of his AB's and pouts or puts his head down or is busy throwing his bat...

The guy plays every night, produces consistently, is diving and making catches or sliding into bases all the time.

If he needs some coaching on controlling his emotions after AB's -then so be it. He gets too emotionally caught up in his performances - in baseball an even keel can help, but he seems to be very passionate about his play and the result of games. I'll take that every day if it's what makes him who he is on the field.

So it amazes me people in this city continue to bash him whenever he makes a mistake (what is this, the 2nd or 3rd time he's done this all year?) ...but refuse to give him credit for all the things he does well.

Lance McAlister is the worst - a sports groupie who has it in for Phillips and has never really said a good word about him...ever.

"Hustle this, hustle that," I am so tired of the focus being on one scapegoated player. He had little to do with the loss - the 7 runs given up by the 5th or 6th inning had everything to do with it. The guy went 3-4 for at the plate!!

If this were, say, Austin Kearns, he'd be getting praised for "being careful" or something.

This city ridiculous and so darned backwards.

Phillips issue wasn't a Cincinnati and Hustle thing. If it happened in any other city, people would be in uproar as well. Well maybe not LA where Manny is Manny.

I just don't get your statement. This city is backwards because we expect the players to play hard. We expect the players to play the game the right way. For years I have watched the Cards run circles around the Reds. They put themselves in position to capitalize on mistakes. They do it time and time again to the Reds. Is it too much to ask for the players to play the game correctly? I guess I am backwards because I expect a degree of professionalism out of the Reds players.

Benihana
07-21-2009, 01:43 PM
I like Brandon Phillips.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 01:49 PM
The Cincinnati obsession with "hustle" continues....

So they would've lost by one run instead of two...

To say Brandon doesn't play hard or care is ignorant, "hustle" is awfully ambiguous - his problem is that he gets too emotionally wrapped up in the result of his AB's and pouts or puts his head down or is busy throwing his bat...

The guy plays every night, produces consistently, is diving and making catches or sliding into bases all the time.

If he needs some coaching on controlling his emotions after AB's -then so be it. He gets too emotionally caught up in his performances - in baseball an even keel can help, but he seems to be very passionate about his play and the result of games. I'll take that every day if it's what makes him who he is on the field.

So it amazes me people in this city continue to bash him whenever he makes a mistake (what is this, the 2nd or 3rd time he's done this all year?) ...but refuse to give him credit for all the things he does well.

Lance McAlister is the worst - a sports groupie who has it in for Phillips and has never really said a good word about him...ever.

"Hustle this, hustle that," I am so tired of the focus being on one scapegoated player. He had little to do with the loss - the 7 runs given up by the 5th or 6th inning had everything to do with it. The guy went 3-4 for at the plate!!

If this were, say, Austin Kearns, he'd be getting praised for "being careful" or something.

This city ridiculous and so darned backwards.

Whoa, horse. First of all, no one said he doesn't play hard or doesn't care. He's a fine ballplayer but he has areas he can improve in just like anyone.

You're right. Hustle is ambiguous but in a situation like last night, it was clear as day. I think everyone can agree that as a player, when you hit the ball, you try to get as many bases as possible. Brandon didn't do that last night. If it was the first or second time it happened, you might want to let it slide. But this has happened time and again. Is Brandon so good that he doesn't need to run hard to 1st when he thinks he's hit a homer? Or when he hits a pop up that may drop?

You say he's too emotionally wrapped up un his game that this sort of thing happens. Brandon is a grown man, not a little kid. If he is the leader he says he is and others say he is, he needs to keep those emotions in check and play the game like he's supposed to.

Brandon's not the first and he won't be the last player to be criticized for a mistake by the fans and the media. But, as I've said before, he's the one who wanted to be the leader and the same people in the media who are critcizing him now were singing his praises during the offseason and anointing him team leader. If it were someone like Nix, people wouldn't care as much since he has never said that he's a leader of this team and no one has suggested he is.

As for never getting credit, you're dead wrong. All the radio and TV announcers pimp him shamelessly for the Gold Glove and, as I've said before, have said he's a team leader. He gets plenty of credit. In fact, he gets so much credit that there are people on here who were/are fans of guys like Dunn and Jr. who got criticized frequently for lack of hustle that they are envious of Brandon and the praise he gets that they will rip him for every little thing he does wrong.

Of course he didn't lose the game for the Reds last night. No one is suggesting that.

As for Austin Kearns, you know very well he got criticized on here plenty when he didn't produce. So don't even think about playing that card I think you're playing.

I think it's great you like Brandon but he's not perfect.

reds44
07-21-2009, 02:04 PM
No part of me expects BP or any other major league player to bust his butt on a routine flyout. 95% of major league players would have jogged after hitting that ball. However, Phillips can not get thrown out on the bases with the way Schmidt was pitching. He didn't hustle, and then made up for it by getting thrown out at 2nd.

TheNext44
07-21-2009, 02:39 PM
If I was Dusty, I would sit Phillips today. I doubt he will.

Still, we have to be careful about accusing Dusty of doing nothing, or not doing enough. We don't know exactly how Dusty handled or will handle this with Phillips. We only know he called him out, by name, in the media.

He could have yelled at him in front of the team as well, or fined him, or forced Phillips to do extra workouts on his own time or gave him a verbal thrashing in his office, or many other options that will never be made public.

Maybe Dusty did none of those things, but we really don't know, and we really can't complain that he didn't do enough until we do know.

nate
07-21-2009, 02:44 PM
we really can't complain that he didn't do enough until we do know.

But that's how we roll!

:cool:

traderumor
07-21-2009, 02:46 PM
Rather than it being an issue of hustle, it is an issue of fundamentals. You keep running hard until the ball is caught. You get up, what, 4-5 times a game. Is it too much to ask that you keep running hard until the umpire signals you are out on a ball that appears to be a routine out? That isn't a hustle issue, that is an issue of playing the game hard while you have the chance, understanding the privilege of getting to play a game for millions of dollars. It is the exact same play as the two out popup where you see the guys circling the bases until the ball is officially caught.

Why anyone would want to excuse such poor play with strawman arguments of "we need better players" or "I've seen Derek Jeter not hustle" I have no idea. That is crappy baseball that has nothing to do with "hustle."

RedsManRick
07-21-2009, 02:46 PM
Actually, my problem is more with Dusty. He needs to call Brandon into his office, read him the riot act, and then sit his butt down for a game. When the press asks why, say "he didn't hustle and we've talked to him about it".

Grousing about it to the press and alluding to it was there before he came seems weak. If Brandon is in the starting lineup tonight, then we'll know how much teeth Dusty puts into his displeasure.

Perhaps some guys need a little public humiliation. I don't know Dusty's thought process, but I could easily see that for Phillips, he needs to be knocked down a peg publicly for things to sink in. His comments suggest it worked.

As for Phillips' mistake, I can understand not busting your hump out of the box on what you think is a routine fly, even if I don't approve of it. That was not his big mistake. The big problem was turning an error in to an out.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and I took food upstairs to snack while watching TV. My mom was mad that I disobeyed, but I got grounded for a week when I lied about. It's not the first time Phillips' has tried too hard to make up for something and made a stupid mistake.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 02:51 PM
If I was Dusty, I would sit Phillips today. I doubt he will.

Still, we have to be careful about accusing Dusty of doing nothing, or not doing enough. We don't know exactly how Dusty handled or will handle this with Phillips. We only know he called him out, by name, in the media.

He could have yelled at him in front of the team as well, or fined him, or forced Phillips to do extra workouts on his own time or gave him a verbal thrashing in his office, or many other options that will never be made public.

Maybe Dusty did none of those things, but we really don't know, and we really can't complain that he didn't do enough until we do know.


Maybe but Dusty said this has happened before and they have talked to him many times about it. He's not going to yell at him in front of the team. That's not Dusty's style. He could fine him but Brandon's making enough money that a fine is an empty gesture. Extra workouts might be a good idea. But benching the modern day player might be the quickest way towards him "getting it." You don't play in the game, you don't have a chance to get on Sportscenter and you have to deal with the embarassment of being asked why you're being benched. And if the team wins without you, you may start to feel a little nervous that they could win without you.

RANDY IN INDY
07-21-2009, 03:33 PM
Whoa, horse. First of all, no one said he doesn't play hard or doesn't care. He's a fine ballplayer but he has areas he can improve in just like anyone.

You're right. Hustle is ambiguous but in a situation like last night, it was clear as day. I think everyone can agree that as a player, when you hit the ball, you try to get as many bases as possible. Brandon didn't do that last night. If it was the first or second time it happened, you might want to let it slide. But this has happened time and again. Is Brandon so good that he doesn't need to run hard to 1st when he thinks he's hit a homer? Or when he hits a pop up that may drop?

You say he's too emotionally wrapped up un his game that this sort of thing happens. Brandon is a grown man, not a little kid. If he is the leader he says he is and others say he is, he needs to keep those emotions in check and play the game like he's supposed to.

Brandon's not the first and he won't be the last player to be criticized for a mistake by the fans and the media. But, as I've said before, he's the one who wanted to be the leader and the same people in the media who are critcizing him now were singing his praises during the offseason and anointing him team leader. If it were someone like Nix, people wouldn't care as much since he has never said that he's a leader of this team and no one has suggested he is.

As for never getting credit, you're dead wrong. All the radio and TV announcers pimp him shamelessly for the Gold Glove and, as I've said before, have said he's a team leader. He gets plenty of credit. In fact, he gets so much credit that there are people on here who were/are fans of guys like Dunn and Jr. who got criticized frequently for lack of hustle that they are envious of Brandon and the praise he gets that they will rip him for every little thing he does wrong.

Of course he didn't lose the game for the Reds last night. No one is suggesting that.

As for Austin Kearns, you know very well he got criticized on here plenty when he didn't produce. So don't even think about playing that card I think you're playing.

I think it's great you like Brandon but he's not perfect.

Good post, Chip. When fans get wrapped up in players, they will make excuses. When players get wrapped up in themselves, the same things happen. It's still a team game. After playing for so long, these kinds of things should be somewhat automatic for professionals. It is nothing more than a mindset of not being wrapped up in yourself and playing the game the right way. It is not too much to ask regardless of how talented you are.

My son, Matt, who is 12, and I were listening to XM 175 yesterday. A pitcher complained and made an excuse to the extent of this. He didn't cover first base because they didn't tell him or stress it in the minors. Matt's reply was, "Yeah, right. What happened to all the times he was told to do it when he was playing as a kid, and in high school?" Last night, when Phillips was thrown out at second, he looked at me before I could say anything and said, "That's what happens when you are selfish and don't run out of the box." If a 12 year old player gets this, what is the excuse of a major league player?

Far East
07-21-2009, 03:51 PM
So they would've lost by one run instead of two...
But if Brandon had not made the out at second base, the inning potentially could have lasted one (or possibly several more) batters longer, possibly leading to a much bigger than 3 run inning.

The out helped Schmidt get out of the inning before being sent to the showers.

bucksfan2
07-21-2009, 03:56 PM
But if Brandon had not made the out at second base, the inning potentially could have lasted one (or possibly several more) batters longer, possibly leading to a much bigger than 3 run inning.

The out helped Schmidt get out of the inning before being sent to the showers.

Thats the issue. No one knows how that inning would have worked out. Phillips could have been stranded at 2nd base and no more runs could have scored, but it didn't look like Schmidt was going to pull it all together.

If Phillips had done what he was supposed to do he should have been standing on 2nd base. I am not expecting him to go A Rosales and run with his pants on fire, but he at least jogs down to 1b he is half way to second by the time the ball hits the ground.

Chip R
07-21-2009, 03:57 PM
But if Brandon had not made the out at second base, the inning potentially could have lasted one (or possibly several more) batters longer, possibly leading to a much bigger than 3 run inning.

The out helped Schmidt get out of the inning before being sent to the showers.


Getting Schmidt out of there might have backfired on the Reds. He was throwing up crap out there and someone else may have come in and shut the Reds down. Of course Schmidt shut them down the rest of the way too so who knows?

Schmidt has to pitch better than that against other teams or he's not going to do very well. Not every team has a sad sack offense.

nate
07-21-2009, 04:05 PM
I think if BP wants to be the leader in the clubhouse, he needs to stop having these issues. Otherwise, the rest of the team is going to select someone like Votto to be the leader.

If they haven't already.

CrackerJack
07-21-2009, 05:06 PM
I read Chip's response and yeah I agree he's by no means "perfect" and has his flaws, you do what you can to correct them - but I think the over-infatuation in this town with a 70's disco dance term is just annoying and inaccurate.

He plays hard, every day he's out there, he plays hurt - he gets too emtionally caught up in failing at his AB's, and hurts his team a few times a year.

He's not the reason this team is losing, not by a long shot. He's not the reason they lost yesterday, the starting pitcher is the reason. Do you really think this offense is capable of stringing together a huge inning, ever? When's the last time they've done that?

Yet all the blogs and the Enquirer has to talk about today is BP didn't "hustle" so they lost.

I am not excusing him, I am confused at the infatuation with calling BP a slacker and someone who doesn't "hustle."

He's a GG 2nd baseman and a consistent offensive threat - if 2-3 times a year he doesn't run out a routine fly or ground ball because he's too busy moping or slamming his bat down, then at least recognize his heart's in the right place and he needs some better coaching and discipline in that particular area.

It's the least of this team's worries really.

He's NOT doing it because he's indifferent or lazy, that's totally inaccurate, and it makes me wonder where people are getting that from exactly? Be fair in your criticism at least.

Homer Bailey
07-21-2009, 05:08 PM
I think the one thing that frustrates people about hustle is that it is completely and 100% not based on talent. Everyone can and should hustle. If a guy strikes out because of lack of ability, it doesn't necessarily make me mad. If a guy doesn't hustle when he is completely capable of it, it is very very frustrating.

M2
07-21-2009, 05:51 PM
I'm not saying the Twins never make mistakes. Of course they do. You'll even see their players fail to run out a ball from time to time. But it doesn't happen often. They make sure of that.

The Reds just talk about it.

Exactly 30 teams talk about it ... incessantly. Hustle and playing the game the "right" way are the "Wapner's on" for MLB's Rain Man-oriented brain.

I'll grant you the Twins are better about it than most (the Angels also have a high motor), but you won't find a single club in MLB that doesn't have a large kangaroo court kitty by the end of the season. And these things you say the Twins rarely do supposedly plagued them all the time back before they started winning this decade - same organization, same philosophy, Tom Kelly at the helm. You know what changed? They got better players and didn't have to act like every mistake or lapse in judgment was fatal.

Brandon Phillips has led the Reds in bases taken every season since he arrived with the Reds. He's taken an extra base on a single or double roughly 55% of the time since he put on a Reds uniform, which is excellent. He's a Gold Glove fielder. The guy plays hard. I'm not saying he doesn't have a monthly brainfart, but you'd think he murdered somebody when it happens. Like anybody else, he should be held accountable when he makes a mistake and he should endeavor to learn from those mistakes, but excluding 99.9% of the things he does on the baseball field to obsess over the occasional foible is tiresome and largely pointless. I saw Phillies fans do it with Mike Schmidt and Yankees fans do it with Dave Winfield too. Some people need someone to blame and they can spend years failing to notice that the guy they're ragging on all day long is a pretty good player.

traderumor
07-21-2009, 06:00 PM
Brandon Phillips has led the Reds in bases taken every season since he arrived with the Reds. He's taken an extra base on a single or double roughly 55% of the time since he put on a Reds uniform, which is excellent. He's a Gold Glove fielder. The guy plays hard. I'm not saying he doesn't have a monthly brainfart, but you'd think he murdered somebody when it happens. Like anybody else, he should be held accountable when he makes a mistake and he should endeavor to learn from those mistakes, but excluding 99.9% of the things he does on the baseball field to obsess over the occasional foible is tiresome and largely pointless. I saw Phillies fans do it with Mike Schmidt and Yankees fans do it with Dave Winfield too. Some people need someone to blame and they can spend years failing to notice that the guy they're ragging on all day long is a pretty good player. I don't think I fit this broadbrush characterization of those "ragging" in this thread, but last night was one of those "enough is enough" type plays with the guy. You're in the middle of landing several hard jabs to the jaw of the team with the best record in the league, and then you trip over your own shoelace and knock yourself out. Sometimes, you have to discipline the good, but ornery kid. You can't always shrug your shoulders at those types.

Brutus
07-21-2009, 06:10 PM
I don't think I fit this broadbrush characterization of those "ragging" in this thread, but last night was one of those "enough is enough" type plays with the guy. You're in the middle of landing several hard jabs to the jaw of the team with the best record in the league, and then you trip over your own shoelace and knock yourself out. Sometimes, you have to discipline the good, but ornery kid. You can't always shrug your shoulders at those types.

I think the criticism of Phillips is warranted, but I'll also add that it seems (at least to me) Phillips gets noticed, not because of the frequency of his transgressions, but rather the timing and consequences of them. It does not seem to me that Phillips is a lazy player. In fact, I'd say he hustles a majority of the time. For whatever reason though, it's those noticeable plays once every 2-3 weeks that stand out which really frustrate people because it's at a crucial moment in the ball game or it was a costly mistake.

I guess if I'm busting on someone for attitude or lack of emotion/hustle/effort, Phillips is not anywhere near the top of my list of targets in Major League Baseball. He usually gives great effort. But it's those isolated incidents that keep coming back to haunt the Reds. In sheer number of runs this amounts to over the course of a season, it's probably minimal. So from that standpoint, I tend to agree with M2 it's not a major issue. I do get upset with these isolated incidents though, just as I have been outspoken about Griffey, Dunn and some of other players that have not maximized their efforts.

RANDY IN INDY
07-21-2009, 06:14 PM
I'll grant you the Twins are better about it than most (the Angels also have a high motor), but you won't find a single club in MLB that doesn't have a large kangaroo court kitty by the end of the season. And these things you say the Twins rarely do supposedly plagued them all the time back before they started winning this decade - same organization, same philosophy, Tom Kelly at the helm. You know what changed? They got better players and didn't have to act like every mistake or lapse in judgment was fatal.

Interesting that you bring up the Twins and the Kelly years. I had the good fortune of coaching with one of the players from those years (8 to be exact) this past spring and summer. It was very apparent to me, through our many conversations, that while every mistake or lapse in judgement was not fatal in that organization, those mistakes or lapses in judgement had a very thin limit and were basically not tolerated, regardless of the talent. Some of the stories were pretty fascinating and eye opening.

nate
07-21-2009, 07:12 PM
Just reported on Hal's Twitter feed that BP is getting benched (http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/07/21/caught_up_my_sleep_today.html) tonight.

WMR
07-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Wow, Dusty finally put his money where his mouth is, good for him.

Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call for Brandon.

M2
07-21-2009, 07:44 PM
Interesting that you bring up the Twins and the Kelly years. I had the good fortune of coaching with one of the players from those years (8 to be exact) this past spring and summer. It was very apparent to me, through our many conversations, that while every mistake or lapse in judgement was not fatal in that organization, those mistakes or lapses in judgement had a very thin limit and were basically not tolerated, regardless of the talent. Some of the stories were pretty fascinating and eye opening.

And the stupid mistakes were supposedly epidemic during the decade the Twins spent in the tank. They weren't, but you're only going so far when Marty Cordova is your best player. Tom Kelly wasn't in charge of a lazy or stupid team. He was in charge of a bad team. Yet almost all you heard was the Twins weren't playing the game the "right" way. Preposterous stuff.


I don't think I fit this broadbrush characterization of those "ragging" in this thread, but last night was one of those "enough is enough" type plays with the guy. You're in the middle of landing several hard jabs to the jaw of the team with the best record in the league, and then you trip over your own shoelace and knock yourself out. Sometimes, you have to discipline the good, but ornery kid. You can't always shrug your shoulders at those types.

I don't think you fit that characterization either. I don't have a problem if Dusty's got a standard way he handles this and Phillips has earned himself a sitting. Teams have rules. We all know that.

My issue is with folks who are seemingly of the opinion that Phillips is a slacker who's dragging down the team with his undisciplined play.

11larkin11
07-21-2009, 07:46 PM
I don't agree with this at all. Sitting BP against a lefty in LA where he crushes the ball, while the team is on the brink of losing the whole season, for not running out a routine flyball, while Votto singles off the wall while staring at it? I know BP has a history of this, but thats who he is, he's not gonna change. The Indians tried to change him, that is what screwed him up there. Lay it on him, fine him, but don't sit him against a lefty in LA.

westofyou
07-21-2009, 08:10 PM
I like teh Sparky approach (at least I think it was Sparky) when confronted with a player he felt hadn't given his all he ran out to teh field in a flash... "You ok? he said to the player, yes, he replied looking at Sparky questionably. "Are you sure" replied Sparky, "because you didn't look like you were ok on that last play, and if you're not ok I'll get someone in here who is to get the job done."

Other managers have walked out on the field and removed the guy from the OF for dogging it. IF anyone knows that it's a problem with a particular player they generally take care it based on the player and his past.

that said... Night game in LA 24 hours after a day game in Cincinnati is bound to cause some fatigue, ill timed? Yes... for sure, but I bet it's also a result of the grind, beating the grind is big part of being a leader, being a star and being a winner in a long baseball season.

I didn't expect him to ride the pine tonight, but also I don't expect the next incident to be handled the same.

VR
07-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Is 'benches' really that hard to spell? :thumbup:

BP has shown some great progress this year in his all around plate approach, but it sounded like it took a great amount of humbling to get him to understand right field and patience existed.

I'm all on board with this getting BP's attention, hopefully this is behind him for good, and a good reminder for the team.

GAC
07-21-2009, 08:45 PM
I like teh Sparky approach (at least I think it was Sparky) when confronted with a player he felt hadn't given his all he ran out to teh field in a flash... "You ok? he said to the player, yes, he replied looking at Sparky questionably. "Are you sure" replied Sparky, "because you didn't look like you were ok on that last play, and if you're not ok I'll get someone in here who is to get the job done."

Other managers have walked out on the field and removed the guy from the OF for dogging it. IF anyone knows that it's a problem with a particular player they generally take care it based on the player and his past.

that said... Night game in LA 24 hours after a day game in Cincinnati is bound to cause some fatigue, ill timed? Yes... for sure, but I bet it's also a result of the grind, beating the grind is big part of being a leader, being a star and being a winner in a long baseball season.

I didn't expect him to ride the pine tonight, but also I don't expect the next incident to be handled the same.

Yep. Talk is fine. But talk is also cheap if, at some point, action isn't forthcoming. It's like a parent constantly harping on a teenager who knows their words are empty.

I wonder if the Red's clubhouse has a fine system in place, like the BRM had, where the team captain would hold "court" and fine a player. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I even read where they use to fine guys for ERRORS!

Scrap Irony
07-21-2009, 08:55 PM
When I was a child, my grandfather loved to tell the story of a farmer going out in the field to get the mule for plowing. Before he did anything else, my grandfather said, this farmer would hit the mule over the head with a 2x4, claiming it as an attention-getter.

20 some-odd years later, as a teacher, I've come to understand that some children need to earn an F, get a telephone call home, and perhaps a conference with Mom, Dad, and teacher to finally understand they need to work harder to get better grades.

Perhaps Phillips is like the mule and some of my students? Perhaps he needs an attention-getter to finally understand the value of not making boneheads?

Unfortunately, I suspect it's not so much Phillips needing to learn that lesson as Phillips struggling with Baker. And vice versa. Baker's kicking him in the rear right now. Maybe that's tough love; maybe it's to get him to leave town.

BCubb2003
07-21-2009, 09:16 PM
The Big Red Machine had Perez to needle anybody who needed it.

RedFanAlways1966
07-21-2009, 09:37 PM
I hope BP learns from this. Good ballplayer who needs to play hard on each AB. The worst thing that can happen is you run hard for maybe 90 feet or so and then go sit for a few minutes or go stand at your position and prepare to play defense. It really is not asking much to have a player run hard on each AB (4 or 5 times a night). Mental gaffes are a part of the game and you hope the player learns from it.

Now how about this... the fan is not happy with Dusty. Can we bench him in his hotel room tonight for not having Micah Owings give Manny Ramirez an unintentional-intentional walk with two outs in the 2nd inning last night? Sure it might have moved a runner into scoring position by walking him, but I'll face almost anyone else with two outs in that situation (next batter did flyout to CF, but who knows what happens with Owings in the stretch). Just saying (mental gaffe)...

May 22, 1990 - REDS @ Cubs
> Andre Dawson receives 5 intentional walks in a 16-inning game. Lou Pinella was not going to allow one of the best hitters in MLB beat him. REDS lost 2-1, but not b/c of Andre Dawson.

M2
07-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Perhaps Phillips is like the mule and some of my students? Perhaps he needs an attention-getter to finally understand the value of not making boneheads?

Unfortunately, I suspect it's not so much Phillips needing to learn that lesson as Phillips struggling with Baker. And vice versa. Baker's kicking him in the rear right now. Maybe that's tough love; maybe it's to get him to leave town.

Or maybe it's grown men thrashing around like angry children because they keep losing games.

Scrap Irony
07-21-2009, 09:48 PM
Possible. We just don't know.

durl
07-21-2009, 10:42 PM
When I was a child, my grandfather loved to tell the story of a farmer going out in the field to get the mule for plowing. Before he did anything else, my grandfather said, this farmer would hit the mule over the head with a 2x4, claiming it as an attention-getter.

20 some-odd years later, as a teacher, I've come to understand that some children need to earn an F, get a telephone call home, and perhaps a conference with Mom, Dad, and teacher to finally understand they need to work harder to get better grades.

Perhaps Phillips is like the mule and some of my students? Perhaps he needs an attention-getter to finally understand the value of not making boneheads?

Unfortunately, I suspect it's not so much Phillips needing to learn that lesson as Phillips struggling with Baker. And vice versa. Baker's kicking him in the rear right now. Maybe that's tough love; maybe it's to get him to leave town.

Different people respond to different types of "encouragement." Some need you to get in their face and lay it all out for them. Others need more of a pat-on-the-back. I don't know what Phillips needs but whatever he's been getting isn't reaching him.

He seems to be the type of guy that thinks everything's fine even when it's not. While that may show good composure, it also shows a bit of arrogance in that he doesn't believe he needs to do what his coaches ask of him. I like Phillips. I just wish he didn't rationalize things when he makes a Little League mistake.

Highlifeman21
07-22-2009, 07:16 AM
The difference is that Micah was probably trying his hardest, Brandon probably was not.

I like, however, that Phillips says that it will never happen again.

Lip service

It'll happen again.

bucksfan2
07-22-2009, 08:21 AM
I was listening to Lance McAllister on the Radio yesterday. While for most of the Phillips discussion he was being an over-reacting idiot, he did bring up one good point. Each night you have 3-5 at bats. Why is it so hard to play hard for those select few at bats during a game?

traderumor
07-22-2009, 09:25 AM
I was listening to Lance McAllister on the Radio yesterday. While for most of the Phillips discussion he was being an over-reacting idiot, he did bring up one good point. Each night you have 3-5 at bats. Why is it so hard to play hard for those select few at bats during a game?Hey, he stole that from me ;)

traderumor
07-22-2009, 09:31 AM
I don't agree with this at all. Sitting BP against a lefty in LA where he crushes the ball, while the team is on the brink of losing the whole season, for not running out a routine flyball, while Votto singles off the wall while staring at it? I know BP has a history of this, but thats who he is, he's not gonna change. The Indians tried to change him, that is what screwed him up there. Lay it on him, fine him, but don't sit him against a lefty in LA.

If you discipline when it is convenient, then you greatly weaken the impact of the discipline. Discipline seems to really sink in when it costs everybody something and also has an effect on prevention for possible future offenders.

Chip R
07-22-2009, 09:41 AM
If you discipline when it is convenient, then you greatly weaken the impact of the discipline. Discipline seems to really sink in when it costs everybody something and also has an effect on prevention for possible future offenders.


Exactly.

Hopefully this benching has taught Brandon a lesson. Dusty must have really been angry with him if he not only called him out in the media but benched him.

Brandon had a mental lapse. It happens. Dusty's telling him to not let it happen again. Hopefully it won't. Brandon's too good of a player to be like that.

RANDY IN INDY
07-22-2009, 09:41 AM
If you discipline when it is convenient, then you greatly weaken the impact of the discipline. Discipline seems to really sink in when it costs everybody something and also has an effect on prevention for possible future offenders.

Agree.

GAC
07-22-2009, 05:13 PM
You bench him for one game hoping that a greater, long term lesson will be learned. If you don't take nay action then it basically condones his attitude/behavior and endorses it in the future.

Besides...the way Homer pitched last night I don't think we could have caught them with 8 Ted Williams in the lineup. ;)

Orenda
07-22-2009, 07:53 PM
I have no problem with Dusty benching Phillips for a game, although I don't think Brandon dogs it as much as he has a tendency to lose focus at times.

On the other hand Dusty should bench himself for penciling in proficient out makers in front of Votto and Phillips.