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reds44
07-22-2009, 10:10 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com



Jocketty: Our position hasn't changed

Walt Jocketty says he’s not ready to write off the season.

“Nothing’s changed,” he said. “Our position hasn’t changed. We’re still 5 1/2 games out. We’re still looking for ways to improve the club.”

There’s one caveat in that.

“We’re not going to do anything for short-term,” he said.

That means the Reds won’t be trading young players for rent-a-players, i.e., players who become frère agents at the season’s end.

The last six days have not been good. The Reds have lost four of the first six on a critical 10-game stretch coming out of the All-Star Break.

There were two trades Wednesday. The Boston Red Sox sent Chris Duncan to St. Louis for shortstop Julio Lugo. The Pirates traded Adam LaRoche to Boston for prospects.

Jocketty said the Reds aren’t close to anything.

“I don’t expect anything to happen until we get closer to the deadline,” he said.

The non-waiver deadline is July 31.

Reds veterans, particularly relievers David Weathers and Arthur Rhodes, have been big names on the rumor mill.

“We’ve gotten some calls,” Jocketty said. “But not as many as you might think.”

Asked if he was inclined to hold onto the veterans, he said:

“Yeah, we’re still trying to win.”

The Reds are 18-29 since May 27.

“I still think we have a run in us,” Jocketty said. “The most telling stat is our starting eight have only played together 10 games. Getting (Alex Gonzalez) back will help. (Edinson) Volquez will be back in the couple of weeks. That will help.”

Reds4Life
07-22-2009, 10:12 PM
So the position is this; we want to win this year, but we aren't going to do anthing to help us win this year, because that's to short term.

Sounds about typical for the Reds. Lots of bluster and bravado and a big fat nothing to back it up. At this point I want Walt to do something....ANYTHING. To date, I am very disappointed in his performance as GM.

Jpup
07-22-2009, 10:12 PM
Walt said Volquez would be back in a couple weeks, three weeks ago. Does he think Reds' fans are morons?

KoryMac5
07-22-2009, 10:13 PM
So basically we can expect more of the same from this club.

WMR
07-22-2009, 10:13 PM
LMAO, in other words Walt and the Reds are telling the fans to ASSUME THE POSITION.

reds44
07-22-2009, 10:18 PM
So basically we can expect more of the same from this club.
Is that surprising?

Highlifeman21
07-22-2009, 10:20 PM
LMAO, in other words Walt and the Reds are telling the fans to ASSUME THE POSITION.

Thank you sir may I have another?


The Reds are 18-29 since May 27.

I'm used to that, can I have another season of that next year as well?

Stormy
07-22-2009, 10:26 PM
"Getting (Alex Gonzalez) back will help." Even as requisite GM speak, that's painful.

princeton
07-22-2009, 10:32 PM
"Getting (Alex Gonzalez) back will help." Even as requisite GM speak, that's painful.

we once made a big deadline trade for Brian Moehler, who was trying to come back from shoulder surgery at the time. that was hopeful

VR
07-22-2009, 10:33 PM
“Nothing’s changed,” he said. “Our position hasn’t changed

we still suck. We get that Walt, thanks.

Unassisted
07-22-2009, 10:33 PM
So the position is this; we want to win this year, but we aren't going to do anthing to help us win this year, because that's to short term.
I figure that Walt wasn't given any new money to make short-term acquisitions and he's not willing (or not allowed) to mortgage the future to acquire rent-a-players.

backbencher
07-22-2009, 10:42 PM
Shorter Walt: If you're buying, call us. If you're selling, call us.

Isn't that about what we want?

RFS62
07-22-2009, 10:43 PM
We're as doomed as doomed can be.

http://phoenix.fanster.com/coyotes/files/2009/05/ed_grimley.jpg

VR
07-22-2009, 10:43 PM
Walt said Volquez would be back in a couple weeks, three weeks ago. Does he think Reds' fans are morons?

It's a Cincy tradition to either misdiagnose injuries, or greatly mis-inform Reds fans about injuries.

The initial report on EV was 'just a little numbness, it went away after the game' (please rush out and buy tickets Reds fans)

reds44
07-22-2009, 10:47 PM
If the Reds win tonight, they're 3 out in the loss column.

I'm just sayin.

OldXOhio
07-22-2009, 10:56 PM
Does anyone really expect Walt to say "this season is over, we expect to lose and we're sellers"? Really?

Come on, of course he's going to dance around it. You need not read into his statement beyond the "nothing short term" comment. That's it. 2009 is short term. As another poster stated, if the moves they make happen to benefit this year but are designed for next year and beyond, all the better.

OldXOhio
07-22-2009, 11:00 PM
we once made a big deadline trade for Brian Moehler, who was trying to come back from shoulder surgery at the time. that was hopeful

I still remember the Bowden PC vividly. All that was released beforehand was the Reds have called an afternoon press conf to announce some very big news. Everyone on here speculated wildly about the big name about to come to Cincy. Instead we got Brian Moehler. Talk about getting doused with ice cold water...shrinkage was abound.

Brutus
07-22-2009, 11:14 PM
I don't get this. What do people expect him to say? Really?

Let him do whatever it is he's going to do. After July 31 comes and goes, everyone should go ahead and interject what they think of whatever it is the Reds did or did not do. It's fair game.

But at least let the guy make his moves (or not make moves) before criticizing he and the club. At this point, he's not going to put his cards down on the table for the media. Let him do his work then in 9 or 10 days, it will be out in the open.

I just don't understand the venting over what he says to a reporter.

Cedric
07-22-2009, 11:21 PM
I can't wait until the Jocketty era is over. Absolutely can't wait.

LoganBuck
07-22-2009, 11:54 PM
Playing Devil's Advocate here, the Reds need three position players,(SS,LF,CF) plus at least one starting pitcher in addition to Volquez going forward. If Walt wants to fix those holes while working on the current roster, be my guest.

M2
07-23-2009, 12:08 AM
I can't wait until the Jocketty era is over. Absolutely can't wait.

Unfortunately the continuum he's joined rather than broken is almost sure to remain after he leaves.

M2
07-23-2009, 12:11 AM
I don't get this. What do people expect him to say? Really?

Let him do whatever it is he's going to do. After July 31 comes and goes, everyone should go ahead and interject what they think of whatever it is the Reds did or did not do. It's fair game.

But at least let the guy make his moves (or not make moves) before criticizing he and the club. At this point, he's not going to put his cards down on the table for the media. Let him do his work then in 9 or 10 days, it will be out in the open.

I just don't understand the venting over what he says to a reporter.

I thought the purpose of this site was to let fans say what's on their minds, not to establish and enforce gag rules.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 12:19 AM
Unfortunately the continuum he's joined rather than broken is almost sure to remain after he leaves.


I think you're right. I think Branch Rickey could come here and after a few years he'd be Cincinnatized.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 12:22 AM
I thought the purpose of this site was to let fans say what's on their minds, not to establish and enforce gag rules.

And likewise someone is able to say that people are being silly and premature in their criticisms if they take advantage of that purpose.

I'm not saying anyone can't speak their minds. That's not at all what I said, is it? I'm merely saying why now? Why not wait until a little over a week from now when there is something of actual substance to speak your mind over.

oregonred
07-23-2009, 12:48 AM
Even Walt has to know the "sell" decision got a lot more obvious in the last three days.
Sell, sell, sell although I'm not sure the owner believes it. The injuries have quickly exposed this team from an interesting .500 type team with a nice pitching staff, to more like the Reds of 2001-2008... There was no margin of error in 2009, which is a shame since the division is ripe for the taking this season.

TheNext44
07-23-2009, 12:54 AM
This actually is a very different position from previous Reds seasons.

Bowden's position every year was to go for it all, the future be damned. That position, combined with Marge's disdain for scouting and the minor leagues, put the Reds back at least a decade.

Kuhlman et all were big time sellers, the only time the Reds had a fire sale this decade. They did a pretty good job considering.

O'Brien was a seller, but only on a small level. The Reds players were pretty young, or pretty bad back then, so not much to move.


Krivsky, well we all know what he did when the Reds were in it in 2006. No matter what you think of the trade, it clearly was a panic, let's go all in, the future be damned move.

Last year, Jocketty was a seller, and did a fine job at that. Much better than I expected.

So the Reds were either sellers, or buyers who were willing to mortgage the future. They have not been prudent or cautious this decade.

I'm glad to see it. It may be boring and tough to watch, but I am confident it will pay dividends in the near future.

M2
07-23-2009, 01:06 AM
And likewise someone is able to say that people are being silly and premature in their criticisms if they take advantage of that purpose.

I'm not saying anyone can't speak their minds. That's not at all what I said, is it? I'm merely saying why now? Why not wait until a little over a week from now when there is something of actual substance to speak your mind over.

You know, we have seen this movie before. And there's plenty of substance to discuss right now. The team is dropping like a stone, largely because it isn't very good. This is the place in our story where the GM moves from denial to resignation.

Big Klu
07-23-2009, 01:11 AM
This actually is a very different position from previous Reds seasons.

Bowden's position every year was to go for it all, the future be damned. That position, combined with Marge's disdain for scouting and the minor leagues, put the Reds back at least a decade.

Kuhlman et all were big time sellers, the only time the Reds had a fire sale this decade. They did a pretty good job considering.

O'Brien was a seller, but only on a small level. The Reds players were pretty young, or pretty bad back then, so not much to move.


Krivsky, well we all know what he did when the Reds were in it in 2006. No matter what you think of the trade, it clearly was a panic, let's go all in, the future be damned move.

Last year, Jocketty was a seller, and did a fine job at that. Much better than I expected.

So the Reds were either sellers, or buyers who were willing to mortgage the future. They have not been prudent or cautious this decade.

I'm glad to see it. It may be boring and tough to watch, but I am confident it will pay dividends in the near future.

Excellent post!

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2009, 02:08 AM
Krivsky, well we all know what he did when the Reds were in it in 2006. No matter what you think of the trade, it clearly was a panic, let's go all in, the future be damned move.

I know this isn't the thread for this discussion so I'll just leave it at I disagree that it was clearly a panic move to compete, I'll always see that move as try to improve the pitching and get better overall for then and the future kind of deal.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 02:18 AM
You know, we have seen this movie before. And there's plenty of substance to discuss right now. The team is dropping like a stone, largely because it isn't very good. This is the place in our story where the GM moves from denial to resignation.

You're absolutely correct the Reds are sinking. I don't dispute that one bit.

However, if I had a dollar for every time a baseball General Manager was not upfront with the media on its true intentions, I'd be a very rich man. My point is that people are raking Jocketty over the coals for his comments, as if they are an endorsement of the club's true intentions next week.

My point is, let him actually follow through with whatever his intentions are, and then we will be able to grade the club based on that. That's not saying we can't discuss it, but there's a lot of jumping off the bridge right now over something that could be nothing more than posturing.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2009, 02:57 AM
Walt just keeps on telling us what we want to here, gotta keep those butts coming thru the gates. All the while the season is unfolding like he suspected, tease ever so slightly keep the money rolling in and putting off for tomorrow what should have been done before yesterday. The guy shall forever be know as Walt "the puppet master" Jocketty by me.

TheNext44
07-23-2009, 03:41 AM
I know this isn't the thread for this discussion so I'll just leave it at I disagree that it was clearly a panic move to compete, I'll always see that move as try to improve the pitching and get better overall for then and the future kind of deal.

I agree with you that it was a future kind of deal, in that the Reds got some young arms, which they desperately needed. However, I still think it was a panic move in that Krivsky gave up way too much and was too quick on the trigger to fully vet the health of the pitchers. Also, the Reds had no one to replace those two, as evident by the huge drop in offense after that trade ever since.

Ron Madden
07-23-2009, 04:09 AM
My point is, let him actually follow through with whatever his intentions are, and then we will be able to grade the club based on that. That's not saying we can't discuss it, but there's a lot of jumping off the bridge right now over something that could be nothing more than posturing.

Walt is the GM of the Cincinnati Reds. We are all Reds Fans, we gather here to discuss anything and everything concerning the Cincinnati Reds.

Whenever Walt says anything at all we will discuss what ever he may have said.

Whenever or If ever Walt makes a move we will discuss that move. We are Redszone! :)


(and if you go back and check we have a history of being right most of the time) ;)

redsfandan
07-23-2009, 05:47 AM
I can't wait until the Jocketty era is over. Absolutely can't wait.
Yeah because we all know that somewhere out there is a future Reds GM who the fans WON'T complain about.:rolleyes:



Whenever or If ever Walt makes a move we will discuss that move. We are Redszone! :)
Hear us roar!! :p:

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 06:49 AM
And some folks thought I was being "negative" with the Epic Fail prediction.

For whatever reason Walt seems convinced that the "talent" he has assembled is just "that much" away from contending. Posters are asking us to wait until the deadline before decrying Walt's inaction. News flash: Walt's MO since the end of the 2008 season has been doing nothing. He's telegraphing that he's not likely to change in the next 8 days.

Walt and the FO is convinced that "speed and defense" will win the day when what wins baseball games is scoring runs and preventing them. Speed is but one component of scoring them and defense is but one component of preventing them. I wish he would have put more energy into the more important stuff like offense and to a lesser degree pitching.

But the trajectory of the season shouldn't be a suprise. If the Cards, Cubs and Brewers weren't so busy not trying to win we would have been out of it right on schedule (i.e. end of May/beginning of June).

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 06:50 AM
You know, we have seen this movie before. And there's plenty of substance to discuss right now. The team is dropping like a stone, largely because it isn't very good. This is the place in our story where the GM moves from denial to resignation.

But we have speed and defense?

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 08:01 AM
And some folks thought I was being "negative" with the Epic Fail prediction.

For whatever reason Walt seems convinced that the "talent" he has assembled is just "that much" away from contending. Posters are asking us to wait until the deadline before decrying Walt's inaction. News flash: Walt's MO since the end of the 2008 season has been doing nothing. He's telegraphing that he's not likely to change in the next 8 days.

Walt and the FO is convinced that "speed and defense" will win the day when what wins baseball games is scoring runs and preventing them. Speed is but one component of scoring them and defense is but one component of preventing them. I wish he would have put more energy into the more important stuff like offense and to a lesser degree pitching.

But the trajectory of the season shouldn't be a suprise. If the Cards, Cubs and Brewers weren't so busy not trying to win we would have been out of it right on schedule (i.e. end of May/beginning of June).

Nice call on the Reds not being good this year. That was a bold one.

I seriously doubt that Jocketty actually believes that this team can compete as it is right now. He's been around a long time and has put together some winning ballclubs. He isn't dumb.

He took over a middle market club that had a lot of money locked up in bad contracts, whether it is record money guaranteed to a closer, a decent amt of money given to a SS who is either hurting himself or hurting the team, a pitcher who received a ridiculous extension and gives up 5+ runs in half his games and comparable money to a guy who we all thought was on the road to being an ace who has ended up being a middle of the rotation guy.

He had zero ability to dump any money last offseason in the middle of a huge financial crisis and that is evidenced by the fact that teams still don't want to take on any money while the economy is rebounding a bit.

It looks as if he had limited money to spend last year and chose to try and catch lightning in a bottle. Those didn't work out. But he didn't hamper the long-term plans of the team by doling out dumb contracts. Everyone wanted Burrell, Bradley and Furcal last winter. Would you rather have had Walt do what he did or give 3+ years to one of those guys? If this is Epic Fail, you would have needed to invent a new slogan for what that would have been.

My belief is that Walt sees a window in the next couple of years and is going to build towards that organically. You can see that in how he has not dedicated material amounts of money or long term contracts. He has also spent in the draft, not worrying as much about signability as his predecessors may have. He has spent money in LatAm, where we haven't spent as much in the past.

Now, this isn't to say that I am doing backflips over the activity I have seen b/c I'm not. But I really don't know what the current state of the game is right now. Last offseason saw the top tier getting top tier money and the rest getting low-ball offers. The Reds never had a shot at getting Tex or CC and most of those middle tier FAs went to winning ballclubs, so I assume that they had no shot at coming to Cincy either unless it was on their terms. I am glad Walt didn't break there. Also, no one is trading prospects right now or taking on money for obvious reasons. So what is Walt to do? Steal guys from other organizations? Bust in Cashman's office and tell him his brains or his signature will be on this trade offer for Arroyo?

I am hoping that he is able to show us something between now and OD 2010. If nothing happens, then I will lose a ton of faith in this regime. Until then, I'll believe that he knows what he is doing. It is fair to assume that he didn't forget how to do his job.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 08:10 AM
My belief is that Walt sees a window in the next couple of years and is going to build towards that organically.

In other words, more of the same garbage we've seen this century.

I can't wait to hear "just wait until _______________ gets called up, ________________ stays healthy and we get a little luck! Then we'll be in the thick of things".......in 2013.

membengal
07-23-2009, 08:11 AM
And likewise someone is able to say that people are being silly and premature in their criticisms if they take advantage of that purpose.

I'm not saying anyone can't speak their minds. That's not at all what I said, is it? I'm merely saying why now? Why not wait until a little over a week from now when there is something of actual substance to speak your mind over.

Because in a week or so, you or another person will say "too soon" to discuss/complain, just give them until the end of August. And then people will be told, no complaining, "too soon", give them the off-season. Then people will be told, "too soon", see how it plays out, then next year the third week in July, people will be told "too soon", wait until the deadline has come and gone... etc. etc. etc.

We have seen this cycle from the Reds before. For nine years fans have been chided for being "impatient".

I guess the question is...when are fans allowed to legitimately question the direction of the franchise, the front office, and the ownership group? Will a mass e-mail go out on that fateful day letting people know that it is finally okay to poke their heads above the dirt and ask, why does it have to be like this? And ask, hey, maybe, when the team gets around to it, articulate just exactly what the vision is and the plan for winning is? Maybe let us know that there IS a plan, other than making the fanbase sift through the decaying caracasses of incremental Taveras moves past and guess at a plan?

I hope I am in the e-mail chain so I know when that day is. That will be swell.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 08:24 AM
In other words, more of the same garbage we've seen this century.

I can't wait to hear "just wait until _______________ gets called up, ________________ stays healthy and we get a little luck! Then we'll be in the thick of things".......in 2013.

If your plan is dependent upon Cincy to all of a sudden get revenue enough to support a big time payroll and top tier FAs, then you better start shopping for another team.

Middle mkt teams can't go out and drop tons of money like the LAs and NYs can. Especially teams whose fans traditionally don't show up until school lets out, which is when the season is almost 1/2 over.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 08:35 AM
Middle mkt teams can't go out and drop tons of money like the LAs and NYs can. Especially teams whose fans traditionally don't show up until school lets out, which is when the season is almost 1/2 over.

It may well be those fans don't show up because there's little reason to. The Reds have maneuvered themselves into the noise of movies, trips to the park, wings night at Bdubs, softball leagues, golf and mowing the yard in terms of entertainment value. People go to GABP because they got free tickets, or the Beach is boring, or Kings Island is too expensive. They are just dust on the radar screen of "what should we do this weekend".

Maybe, just maybe, if they show the fans they are serious about winning, and actually like, you know, win baseball games, the fans will show up. Fans showing up means more revenue. More revenue means more options. It's all very wonderful. But the first step belongs to the Reds, not the fans.

Sit back and wait for the stars to align, windows to open and your next I71 savior to arrive and you'll always be wondering why the fans don't care about your product.

Roy Tucker
07-23-2009, 08:36 AM
I didn't think WJ would run to the press saying "fire sale! we open at 6 AM tomorrow, be there!!!". Krivsky played his cards so close to the vest, they were Super-Glued on. WJ seems a little more open, but "open" is a very relative term. He still does the GM thing and mumbles empty platitudes. I'll be surprised if he does nothing.

I must say, the Reds are playing a spectacularly inept brand of baseball right now. West Coast swings are usually train wrecks and this one is a doozy. Lots of seasons have "ended" this way. Looks like that's how this one is too.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 08:58 AM
It may well be those fans don't show up because there's little reason to. The Reds have maneuvered themselves into the noise of movies, trips to the park, wings night at Bdubs, softball leagues, golf and mowing the yard in terms of entertainment value. People go to GABP because they got free tickets, or the Beach is boring, or Kings Island is too expensive. They are just dust on the radar screen of "what should we do this weekend".

Maybe, just maybe, if they show the fans they are serious about winning, and actually like, you know, win baseball games, the fans will show up. Fans showing up means more revenue. More revenue means more options. It's all very wonderful. But the first step belongs to the Reds, not the fans.

Sit back and wait for the stars to align, windows to open and your next I71 savior to arrive and you'll always be wondering why the fans don't care about your product.

Nope. Just dedicate yourself to building your organization in a smart and efficient manner and you will have a better chance to build a winner as a middle market franchise.

Here's an open question to all of those who think that Walt has done an awful job so far and that he missed an opportunity to put a winning team on the field this year: What should he have done? And don't say that he should have spent money on a big bat or that he should have acquired a young SS. No generic answers. Let's hear specifics. I'd like to hear who he could have obtained who would have helped this team, which salaries he legitimately could have dumped, which draft picks he screwed up on, etc etc etc.

And just an FYI, Willy Whipping Boy doesn't strike me as a huge screw up since the terms of the contract aren't detrimental to the club and Chris Dickerson has now come back to Earth with a resounding thud and is currently threatening the Taveras (OPS) line.

Go for it.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 09:02 AM
At least he didn't blame it on injuries in this sound byte. "We had a teeny, tiny, teeny, tiny bit of talent going in, then the injuries hit and we're left with Votto and a AAA team."

Boy, this sure is looking like 2001...and 2002...wait throw 2003 in there...and might as well include 2004...why not go with 2005 as well...now that I think about it, 2006 has to go in there too...I suppose 2007....yea, 2008 fits in as well.

Old Rip Van Winkle isn't missing a thing. He can just keep on sleeping.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 09:03 AM
Nope. Just dedicate yourself to building your organization in a smart and efficient manner and you will have a better chance to build a winner as a middle market franchise..

Tell you what. I'll give you a specific step-by-step plan with no "generic answers" once you provide yours.

Because "dedicating yourself to building your organization in a smart and efficient manner" is as generic as it gets. It's also the same crap this franchise has been peddling since nearly Clinton's presidency.

The fans ain't buying it and neither am I.

Time to try something new...like...oh, I don't know...quit thinking small.

M2
07-23-2009, 09:04 AM
Because in a week or so, you or another person will say "too soon" to discuss/complain, just give them until the end of August. And then people will be told, no complaining, "too soon", give them the off-season. Then people will be told, "too soon", see how it plays out, then next year the third week in July, people will be told "too soon", wait until the deadline has come and gone... etc. etc. etc.

We have seen this cycle from the Reds before. For nine years fans have been chided for being "impatient".

I guess the question is...when are fans allowed to legitimately question the direction of the franchise, the front office, and the ownership group? Will a mass e-mail go out on that fateful day letting people know that it is finally okay to poke their heads above the dirt and ask, why does it have to be like this? And ask, hey, maybe, when the team gets around to it, articulate just exactly what the vision is and the plan for winning is? Maybe let us know that there IS a plan, other than making the fanbase sift through the decaying caracasses of incremental Taveras moves past and guess at a plan?

I hope I am in the e-mail chain so I know when that day is. That will be swell.

Great post.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 09:12 AM
It may well be those fans don't show up because there's little reason to. The Reds have maneuvered themselves into the noise of movies, trips to the park, wings night at Bdubs, softball leagues, golf and mowing the yard in terms of entertainment value. People go to GABP because they got free tickets, or the Beach is boring, or Kings Island is too expensive. They are just dust on the radar screen of "what should we do this weekend".

Maybe, just maybe, if they show the fans they are serious about winning, and actually like, you know, win baseball games, the fans will show up. Fans showing up means more revenue. More revenue means more options. It's all very wonderful. But the first step belongs to the Reds, not the fans.

Sit back and wait for the stars to align, windows to open and your next I71 savior to arrive and you'll always be wondering why the fans don't care about your product.

Winning puts butts in seats.

If you build it (a winning ballclub), they will come.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 09:15 AM
Nope. Just dedicate yourself to building your organization in a smart and efficient manner and you will have a better chance to build a winner as a middle market franchise.

Here's an open question to all of those who think that Walt has done an awful job so far and that he missed an opportunity to put a winning team on the field this year: What should he have done? And don't say that he should have spent money on a big bat or that he should have acquired a young SS. No generic answers. Let's hear specifics. I'd like to hear who he could have obtained who would have helped this team, which salaries he legitimately could have dumped, which draft picks he screwed up on, etc etc etc.

And just an FYI, Willy Whipping Boy doesn't strike me as a huge screw up since the terms of the contract aren't detrimental to the club and Chris Dickerson has now come back to Earth with a resounding thud and is currently threatening the Taveras (OPS) line.

Go for it.

That's nice and all, but the Reds don't know smart or efficient.

Over The Lost Decade, I've seen far too many bad contracts, lack of talent, and dumb player personnel moves.

So sure, if (and I can't stress if enough) the Reds ever learn smart or efficient, they might have a chance.

M2
07-23-2009, 09:19 AM
At least he didn't blame it on injuries in this sound byte. "We had a teeny, tiny, teeny, tiny bit of talent going in, then the injuries hit and we're left with Votto and a AAA team."

Boy, this sure is looking like 2001...and 2002...wait throw 2003 in there...and might as well include 2004...why not go with 2005 as well...now that I think about it, 2006 has to go in there too...I suppose 2007....yea, 2008 fits in as well.

Old Rip Van Winkle isn't missing a thing. He can just keep on sleeping.

Perfect summation. And that history is why a Reds GM needs to communicate that this isn't the same old same old.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:26 AM
That's nice and all, but the Reds don't know smart or efficient.

Over The Lost Decade, I've seen far too many bad contracts, lack of talent, and dumb player personnel moves.

So sure, if (and I can't stress if enough) the Reds ever learn smart or efficient, they might have a chance.

Jocketty has been here for one year out of this decade.

OldXOhio
07-23-2009, 09:30 AM
I must say, the Reds are playing a spectacularly inept brand of baseball right now. West Coast swings are usually train wrecks and this one is a doozy. Lots of seasons have "ended" this way. Looks like that's how this one is too.

Let's hope. I guess one can dream, at least for now.

princeton
07-23-2009, 09:31 AM
I'd be PO'd because when you say that you're still a buyer, the other buyers really should stop calling you.

however, I'm not because of four observations:

first, the market looks pretty bad for sellers right now;

second, there are a lot of trades between two buyer clubs so it pays to say that you're still a buyer;

third, Walt's pretty good at selling in August;

fourth, the NL central fails to impress. I highly doubt that we'll turn around, but maybe the kids can learn some lessons about how to compete.

RichRed
07-23-2009, 09:32 AM
I expect that Walt is smart enough to know this team isn't a good team temporarily masquerading as a bad one. I just don't expect a whole lot to be done about it. I hope he proves me wrong with a coherent plan and some bold moves but until then, I'll believe he's been, to use Chip's word, "Cincinnatized."

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Jocketty has been here for one year out of this decade.

Ok, so 1 man in 1 year cannot undo the prior 9 years of dumb and inefficient.

All I'm saying is that if 1 man is going to be here multiple years, he has to start doing something differently.

Change the position, Walt.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 09:33 AM
fourth, the NL central fails to impress. I highly doubt that we'll turn around, but maybe the kids can learn some lessons about how to compete.


Lesson 1: Don't throw fastballs down the middle to Manny especially when the bases are loaded and it's a tie game.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:35 AM
Tell you what. I'll give you a specific step-by-step plan with no "generic answers" once you provide yours.

Because "dedicating yourself to building your organization in a smart and efficient manner" is as generic as it gets. It's also the same crap this franchise has been peddling since nearly Clinton's presidency.

The fans ain't buying it and neither am I.

Time to try something new...like...oh, I don't know...quit thinking small.

My plan has been to forget guaranteeing significant years and money to the "now" and mediocre and build a team around the youth coming up through the system. It has never changed. I can tell you that my plan wouldn't have included Cordero, Arroyo, Stanton and Gonzalez and you can check the logs. It also wouldn't have included guys like Stubbs and Mesoraco with top 10 and 15 picks. Hindsight is 20/20 but my overall plan would have involved purposely taking it on the chin the last few years in order to build a team for 2009, 2010 and beyond. But since they wanted to win in 2007-2008, we are now further behind.

Now, what opportunities do you believe that Walt missed? Or will you continue to ramble on about what he didn't do when the truth is that there wasn't enough opportunity available for him to make a difference?

I see more promise with Walt than I ever did with Wayne. And that is saying something. Now Walt has until OD 2010 with me to do something. If it is more of the same then I have no idea what I will think. But he is already ahead of the game by not hampering the future with dumb contracts while giving me a sense that he has a clue about the draft.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:36 AM
Ok, so 1 man in 1 year cannot undo the prior 9 years of dumb and inefficient.

All I'm saying is that if 1 man is going to be here multiple years, he has to start doing something differently.

Change the position, Walt.

I am giving him until next OD. If it is more of the same, then I have some soul searching to do.

Sea Ray
07-23-2009, 09:38 AM
This is the line that bothers me:


“I still think we have a run in us,” Jocketty said.

Does that sound like someone who's living in the real world?

I like to think I'm a realist and I see a team that is nowhere near contending. One that played over its head while it played .500 ball. This team needs to get better so it can compete in future years. No trade is going to make them contenders this year. If I'm Bob Cast, I tell him "make trades today so we don't have another season like this one."

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 09:40 AM
It's threads like this in which I wonder why half of you even visit RedsZone and still watch the ballgames?

Y'all sound like Nelson Muntz, walking a few steps behind Bart Simpson through life, just so when he screws up, you can jump up and say HA HA.

But hey... it's your life. Spend your time as you wish.

For me, I will keep this season in perspective. Someone said it well a few pages back. Bowden destroyed the farm system for short term gains so much that we are just now getting back to having a stocked pantry. Surely anyone who follows baseball knows how essential that is to middle market club success.

Your talent pipeline isn't free agency when you can't compete financially with the big boys. So it has to be the minors. So... really... what did you expect this decade with no farm system to speak of?

And here the club is, finally restocked and respected. The pipeline is very close to producing some ballplayers. Not one and then turn off. Consistently producing players. Only then can long term success happen. Using trades and free agency to supplement that pipeline. Trading from positions of surplus. Filling holes with short free agent contracts that aren't going to hogtie the organization financially.

Judging the health of the organization solely by the wins and losses of the major league club is myopic, at best. I'm glad there are those who can see the big picture.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 09:45 AM
My plan has been to forget guaranteeing significant years and money to the "now" and mediocre and build a team around the youth coming up through the system. Hindsight is 20/20 but my overall plan would have involved purposely taking it on the chin the last few years in order to build a team for 2009, 2010 and beyond.

Your original question asked for "no generic answers. Let's hear specifics".

What you've described above is nothing but generic. Building around the youth is the same "plan" many other similar teams talk about incessantly.

princeton
07-23-2009, 09:49 AM
I am giving him until next OD.


wow, I heard that last year. actually, first I heard July 31 2008, then OD 2009, then July 31 2009, now OD 2010.

on July 23 2010, it'll be OD 2011

traderumor
07-23-2009, 09:51 AM
It's threads like this in which I wonder why half of you even visit RedsZone and still watch the ballgames?

Y'all sound like Nelson Muntz, walking a few steps behind Bart Simpson through life, just so when he screws up, you can jump up and say HA HA.

But hey... it's your life. Spend your time as you wish.

For me, I will keep this season in perspective. Someone said it well a few pages back. Bowden destroyed the farm system for short term gains so much that we are just now getting back to having a stocked pantry. Surely anyone who follows baseball knows how essential that is to middle market club success.

Your talent pipeline isn't free agency when you can't compete financially with the big boys. So it has to be the minors. So... really... what did you expect this decade with no farm system to speak of?

And here the club is, finally restocked and respected. The pipeline is very close to producing some ballplayers. Not one and then turn off. Consistently producing players. Only then can long term success happen. Using trades and free agency to supplement that pipeline. Trading from positions of surplus. Filling holes with short free agent contracts that aren't going to hogtie the organization financially.

Judging the health of the organization solely by the wins and losses of the major league club is myopic, at best. I'm glad there are those who can see the big picture.I think the time limit is expired on blaming Bowden in Cincinnati. The Nats now have territorial rights there.

I probably posted a similar thing a few years after he was fired, after O'Brien was fired, and probably at some point after Jerry Narron was fired, maybe look around when Dave Miley was canned, when Brad Kullman was interim GM, when John Allen was running the PR department (hilarious just typing that), to the signing of Eric Milton, etc. and so forth. Now, this view of the "big picture" is just the type of wishful thinking that makes the Reds a victim of organizational gridlock. Nobody move.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Your original question asked for "no generic answers. Let's hear specifics".

What you've described above is nothing but generic. Building around the youth is the same "plan" many other similar teams talk about incessantly.

I guess your quoting function just deleted some of those lines by accident. Add those back in and it is anything but generic.

But continuing to evade my proposal is significantly weakening your argument. Your position is that Walt hasn't done what he should have done. My rebuttal is that, due to economics and the current structure of the team, his hands were pretty much tied. But I would love to hear what he should have done in your eyes.

You may as well say that Walt should have done something, leave it at that and then post a picture of a cat hanging from a tree or some other witty fail type image. Because I am hearing nothing else.

I will ask again, what obvious opportunities did he miss in his first year at the helm?

OldXOhio
07-23-2009, 09:54 AM
Lesson 1: Don't throw fastballs down the middle to Manny especially when the bases are loaded and it's a tie game.

Seems pretty simple and yet here's Dusty's take...


“Seems like any time we face a big hitter, he kills us,” Baker said.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:55 AM
wow, I heard that last year. actually, first I heard July 31 2008, then OD 2009, then July 31 2009, now OD 2010.

on July 23 2010, it'll be OD 2011

Nope. You have to give a guy a little time, especially someone with his track record. He has given me hope by not buying into the "now", which was Wayne's major downfall. So he has earned a little more time in my eyes.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 09:56 AM
Lesson 1: Don't throw fastballs down the middle to Manny especially when the bases are loaded and it's a tie game.Lesson 2: go to sleep and read about how they lost when you get up the next morning instead of kicking yourself for staying up late to watch that.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 09:59 AM
Nope. You have to give a guy a little time, especially someone with his track record. He has given me hope by not buying into the "now", which was Wayne's major downfall. So he has earned a little more time in my eyes.Not shooting yourself in the foot is admirable at some level......I guess....I wouldn't be expecting a purple heart, though.

Kc61
07-23-2009, 09:59 AM
And here the club is, finally restocked and respected. The pipeline is very close to producing some ballplayers. Not one and then turn off. Consistently producing players. Only then can long term success happen. Using trades and free agency to supplement that pipeline. Trading from positions of surplus. Filling holes with short free agent contracts that aren't going to hogtie the organization financially.

Judging the health of the organization solely by the wins and losses of the major league club is myopic, at best. I'm glad there are those who can see the big picture.

It's equally myopic to exaggerate a team's future because there is some decent depth in the prospects chain. The Reds don't have guys like Evan Longoria or Justin Upton about to emerge. Yes, the farm system is better but there are no game changers about to burst on the scene.

Even the best prospects, say a Jay Bruce, can take several years of major league ball to make it. And, as someone posted yesterday, with free agency there isn't that long a window to get top notch results from these players.

So you have to actively manage your assets. You can't just sit back and say we have kids on the farm. And I think that is what the complaining is about. People see decent drafting and also good international signings of teenagers. But they don't see efforts as of yet to convert assets to a winning team.

Maybe it's too soon, I don't know, but I'm not going to congratulate the Reds for this ballclub or this system. Because I don't see how they get from here to a winning team given their thrift and failure to take bold steps.

princeton
07-23-2009, 10:03 AM
Nope. You have to give a guy a little time, especially someone with his track record. He has given me hope by not buying into the "now", which was Wayne's major downfall. So he has earned a little more time in my eyes.

Walt needs a binder, in my opinion

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 10:03 AM
Not shooting yourself in the foot is admirable at some level......I guess....I wouldn't be expecting a purple heart, though.

I haven't given him the purple heart, but I also wouldn't be looking to give him a dishonorable discharge either. That is my position.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 10:06 AM
I'm starting to think BC and Mike Brown have made a super secret handshake that the Reds will tank by July before training camp starts to turn the attention toward the Bengals. Then, after the World Series is over and the Bengals have had a chance to alienate their fans before Halloween, the Hot Stove League can fire up and Reds fans can turn their attention to visions of free agent signings and blockbuster trades dancing in their heads. Of course, those visions have as much substance as seeing flying monkeys in an LSD induced hallucination. Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain.

Stormy
07-23-2009, 10:06 AM
Here's an open question to all of those who think that Walt has done an awful job so far and that he missed an opportunity to put a winning team on the field this year: What should he have done? And don't say that he should have spent money on a big bat or that he should have acquired a young SS. No generic answers. Let's hear specifics. I'd like to hear who he could have obtained who would have helped this team, which salaries he legitimately could have dumped, which draft picks he screwed up on, etc etc etc.

And just an FYI, Willy Whipping Boy doesn't strike me as a huge screw up since the terms of the contract aren't detrimental to the club and Chris Dickerson has now come back to Earth with a resounding thud and is currently threatening the Taveras (OPS) line.

Go for it.

Here was my brief list of Walt miscalculations from the game thread the other night. It's hardly exhaustive. Oh, and for the record, Chris Dickerson has a 365OBP and an OPS 150 points higher than Taveras, so I don't understand your reference.

Aside from a few minor bullpen additions, Walt's next significant accurate evaluation will virtually be his first.

He has a plus defender 370OBP CF and leadoff hitter in house, but he opts to spend $6.5 million to replace him with an erratic defender 290OBP blackhole. He gambles that career year JHJ is the new norm, and loses. Despite a desperate need for both a franchise SS, and a RHH big bopper in LF, he decides to stand pat (or rely upon reclamation projects). He accepts a low velocity, control-challenged Owings to be an acceptable return for a 900+OPS LF like Dunn, then doesn't replace the lost production. He errantly promotes Homer Bailey repeatedly, rather than trying to maximize his trade value at AAA. He fails to move Arroyo, despite Bronson posting 100IP of 3.47 ERA ball in the 2nd half of last year, and reports that teams were inquiring about him...

We're spinning our wheels here, and haven't added any impact MLB talent in well over a year, in the process.

So, why couldn't we have...

1.) Used this flourishing farm system you speak of to acquire the franchise SS we desperately need(ed)? Perhaps a guy like Escobar, who has burned a lot of bridges in Atlanta, would look pretty great hitting .300+/370OBP in the #2 slot instead of teacher's pet JHJ? That's just one option we probably had.

2.) Divested ourselves of Arroyo's contract amidst the interest surrounding him last offseason, following his brilliant 2nd half of 2008?

3.) Acquired our stop-gap power hitting LF like Jermaine Dye to hold the fort until our ML OFers matured, and sold relatively high on Bailey in the process?

4.) Left the CF/leadoff situation well enough alone for a fraction of the cost, and put the money utterly wasted on guys like Taveras and Lincoln (and even redundancies like Weathers) towards Dye's short contract?

These were remedial moves that strengthen the team for the present and future, without depleting the farm. We would have been much more competetive in 2009, and still primed the for alleged long-term window opening in 2010 and beyond.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 10:08 AM
I guess your quoting function just deleted some of those lines by accident. Add those back in and it is anything but generic.

So adding back in "don't give dumb contracts to Stanton" suddenly fleshes out a grand plan of some sort? I don't see it.


I will ask again, what obvious opportunities did he miss in his first year at the helm?

Not get a real LF bat. Not get a real SS solution. Shackled us with a sub-replacement level CF that would be guaranteed to be inked in the top of the lineup. Resigned a JHJ that any idiot knew had a carer year. Wasted spots on Mike Lincoln so that when Nick Masset struggles you have no extra talent in the pen to rely on. I think those are pretty much "fails" and missed opportunities...don't you?

Since you've provided exactly zero roadmap to the future other than to say "build on youth" I think I've given you more than enough specifics to work with. And since (1) none of us are privy to the FO conversations and (2) there's 20 some-odd teams + farm systems I think it's safe to say there were many more options available to Walt, if he chose to take them, than the trade ideas suggested on RZ. So don't just say "Bobby Abreau".

http://www.svcn.com/archives/sunnyvalesun/11.03.99/gifs/cat1-9944.jpg

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 10:11 AM
By the way Edabbs, on one hand you are saying build around youth.

On the other hand you are claiming that Chris Dickerson is as bad as Willy T. Assuming that was remotely close to being true, how do you rectify that youth fails more often than it goes super-nova?

I mean, if you're going to pin your hopes to the youth that coalesces into a baseball powerhouse in 2013, and 60% of that youth washes out, then what do you do? Push the plan back to 2018?

durl
07-23-2009, 10:13 AM
Winning puts butts in seats.

If you build it (a winning ballclub), they will come.

I agree with you. People may go to a game because they want to watch some baseball, but when there's a winner on the field, more people will want to go.

I hate to seem like a type of "fair-weather" fan but I doubt I'll make the drive to a game this year. While I was initially optimistic this season, this recent plunge into bad pitching and zero offense would just be too frustrating to watch in person.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 10:30 AM
It's threads like this in which I wonder why half of you even visit RedsZone and still watch the ballgames?

Y'all sound like Nelson Muntz, walking a few steps behind Bart Simpson through life, just so when he screws up, you can jump up and say HA HA.

But hey... it's your life. Spend your time as you wish.

For me, I will keep this season in perspective. Someone said it well a few pages back. Bowden destroyed the farm system for short term gains so much that we are just now getting back to having a stocked pantry. Surely anyone who follows baseball knows how essential that is to middle market club success.

Your talent pipeline isn't free agency when you can't compete financially with the big boys. So it has to be the minors. So... really... what did you expect this decade with no farm system to speak of?

And here the club is, finally restocked and respected. The pipeline is very close to producing some ballplayers. Not one and then turn off. Consistently producing players. Only then can long term success happen. Using trades and free agency to supplement that pipeline. Trading from positions of surplus. Filling holes with short free agent contracts that aren't going to hogtie the organization financially.

Judging the health of the organization solely by the wins and losses of the major league club is myopic, at best. I'm glad there are those who can see the big picture.

I thought I stumbled onto RaysZone for a second, or maybe PhilliesZone.

The Reds are restocked and respected?

The pipeline is close to producing some ballplayers?

Really?

My questions are:

Restocked with what?

Respected by whom?

Close to what?

What's your definition of ballplayer?

What big picture do you see?

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 10:33 AM
It's equally myopic to exaggerate a team's future because there is some decent depth in the prospects chain. The Reds don't have guys like Evan Longoria or Justin Upton about to emerge. Yes, the farm system is better but there are no game changers about to burst on the scene.

Even the best prospects, say a Jay Bruce, can take several years of major league ball to make it. And, as someone posted yesterday, with free agency there isn't that long a window to get top notch results from these players.

So you have to actively manage your assets. You can't just sit back and say we have kids on the farm. And I think that is what the complaining is about. People see decent drafting and also good international signings of teenagers. But they don't see efforts as of yet to convert assets to a winning team.

Maybe it's too soon, I don't know, but I'm not going to congratulate the Reds for this ballclub or this system. Because I don't see how they get from here to a winning team given their thrift and failure to take bold steps.

Would Votto and Bruce not be our Longoria and Upton? Seeing as they're two who made the jump to the big club recently.

Might argue Votto is panning out a hair better than Longoria actually.

I'd call that an example of the system producing a game-changer.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 10:39 AM
Would Votto and Bruce not be our Longoria and Upton? Seeing as they're two who made the jump to the big club recently.

Might argue Votto is panning out a hair better than Longoria actually.

I'd call that an example of the system producing a game-changer.

Votto and Bruce are already here.

Who else do we have in that pipeline that's a game changer?

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Votto and Bruce are already here.

Who else do we have in that pipeline that's a game changer?

My post was in direct reply to someone asking where was the Evan Longoria and Justin Upton for the Reds. I thought since they were recent arrivals that I could use recent arrivals. Apples to apples, you know.

As for your questions about who says we have a good system... wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that pundits said the Reds were one of the few teams that could swing a big deal at the deadline because it had enviable prospects?

Alfonso is being heralded as having the best plate discipline in the minors. Zach Stewart could see a September callup and have a role next season. Stubbs and Lehr started the AAA all-star game, didn't they?

And this doesn't even take into account (as it should, because they are examples of the system working) Cueto and Bailey and some of the young relief guys who are showing signs of being good-to-great major leaguers.

Kc61
07-23-2009, 10:50 AM
Would Votto and Bruce not be our Longoria and Upton? Seeing as they're two who made the jump to the big club recently.

Might argue Votto is panning out a hair better than Longoria actually.

I'd call that an example of the system producing a game-changer.

My point is somewhat different. I'm simply talking about 2010 and whether the farm is about to emerge to boost the Reds. I don't see it for next year. What I see is depth that can help over the long term but I don't see the quantum jump about to take place.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Because in a week or so, you or another person will say "too soon" to discuss/complain, just give them until the end of August. And then people will be told, no complaining, "too soon", give them the off-season. Then people will be told, "too soon", see how it plays out, then next year the third week in July, people will be told "too soon", wait until the deadline has come and gone... etc. etc. etc.

We have seen this cycle from the Reds before. For nine years fans have been chided for being "impatient".

I guess the question is...when are fans allowed to legitimately question the direction of the franchise, the front office, and the ownership group? Will a mass e-mail go out on that fateful day letting people know that it is finally okay to poke their heads above the dirt and ask, why does it have to be like this? And ask, hey, maybe, when the team gets around to it, articulate just exactly what the vision is and the plan for winning is? Maybe let us know that there IS a plan, other than making the fanbase sift through the decaying caracasses of incremental Taveras moves past and guess at a plan?

I hope I am in the e-mail chain so I know when that day is. That will be swell.

Direction should be measured by intent. My point all along is that in a week from now, we'll know the intent of the franchise for this particular season. To criticize Jocketty for what he may or may not do at this juncture is like criticizing a long-distance runner for losing a race before he's crossed the finish line.

There will always be people that think the best form of measurement is results. That does kind of make sense, doesn't it? Clearly the Reds have not got those results in a long time. However, to change the results, you have to make changes and give those changes time to work. It absolutely is brutal to hear "be patient" when you've been patient for many years waiting on the absolution, but every time the Reds front office induces another change (which the fans have said they wanted), it unfortunately comes with the territory that you have to tack on an additional amount of time for new management to do whatever it is they ultimately are going to do.

I'm not saying wait until after the season or two years from now to judge Jocketty. Though I do think no one can fairly judge results until after the fact, that's not to say it's taboo to make preliminary observations. All I'm saying is if people want to say Jocketty should or should not do this or that, then at least give him until next week to make whatever moves he will make and then you clearly will have ammunition one way or another to support or not support his idea for the direction of this team. Does that not make sense?

My only other question is this:

If people are so hungry for a winner, even though I have had my own thoughts on the (in)ability of this team to get it done this year, why should people be so upset that Jocketty comes out and says he has not given up on this team and thinks they have a run in them? Is that not what people want? Aren't you complaining on one hand that you're tired of the losing, but then mad that Jocketty wants to win now? It is somewhat contradictory.

Sea Ray
07-23-2009, 11:24 AM
Aren't you complaining on one hand that you're tired of the losing, but then mad that Jocketty wants to win now? It is somewhat contradictory.


I don't see anything contradictory. Sure we all want to win right now. I want to win the lottery. We just haven't seen anything from Walt to help us win now or later. All we've seen come our way is Corky Miller

Brutus
07-23-2009, 11:34 AM
I don't see anything contradictory. Sure we all want to win right now. I want to win the lottery. We just haven't seen anything from Walt to help us win now or later. All we've seen come our way is Corky Miller

OK but that was my original point - the trade deadline is next week, so I surmise you'll see something one way or another next week.

Sea Ray
07-23-2009, 11:38 AM
OK but that was my original point - the trade deadline is next week, so I surmise you'll see something one way or another next week.

I doubt you'll see anything significant. Do you think acquiring a Micah Owings is building for the future? My guess is if Walt does anything it'll be minor if not downright insignificant

osuceltic
07-23-2009, 11:46 AM
Here's my problem with the fire sale crowd. I'm OK with trading some bullpen arms. Even Cordero. Fine. We can rebuild the bullpen, although it won't be nearly as easy as many assume.

I'm OK with trading some position players who don't fit long-term, like Edwin or Taveras. But no one wants those guys.

So that brings us to what's left: Harang and Arroyo. Are they overpaid? Maybe by a little, but even with their current performance level, they're not grossly overpaid. And while they've been up and down, they still have given this team plenty of quality starts. These are solid, established major league starting pitchers. Replacing them is going to be incredibly hard. We don't have any replacements in-house. Homer? Micah? I don't think so. Maloney? Not hardly. So you trade those two and you blow a hole in your starting rotation, and have we already forgotten how hard it is to patch that kind of hole?

If I trade those guys, I want major league-ready pitching in return. But who is going to give up cheap, major league-ready pitching for those guys? For Roy Halladay, sure. For Harang or Arroyo? Not going to happen. So then you're just trading them for maybes and salary relief. Which brings me to my last point ...

Let's say the Reds free up $36 million by trading Harang, Arroyo and Cordero. Does anyone here have any faith in this team being able to use that money to replace what those players provide? I know I don't. Look at the free agent market. If you have $10 million to spend on a starting pitcher, that's going to get you a guy like ... Aaron Harang. So put me down as solidly against any kind of trade whose chief value is dumping a high-salaried producer. (If you can find one that dumps a high-salaried non-producer, I'm all ears.)

I just don't see how trading Harang and Arroyo gets us any closer to winning. I'm not interested in adding a couple of A-ball prospects. All those trades would do is line Castellini's pockets. No thanks.

No, I spend my time and energy before the deadline and in the offseason trying to build on the pieces we have (Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Arroyo, Owings). I try to find a SS, a third-baseman, a left fielder and continue to search for more pitching. My focus does shift from guys like Rolen and Holliday to more long-term additions. I make everyone else available -- including big-league guys like Cordero, Encarnacion, Dickerson, Hanigan, Weathers, Rhodes and minor leaguers like Alonso, Stubbs/Heisey, Valaika, Francisco, Soto, Maloney, Roenicke, Cozart.

My goal is to go into next season with the solid contributing players we currently have bolstered by improvements to our three glaring positional holes and depth in the pitching staff. It doesn't appease the reactionary "burn it down" reflex, but I reject the notion that every team must be either a buyer or a seller. There will be a season in 2010, and if Walt reaches the conclusion that this team can't win in 2009, I hope every decision he makes is done with 2010 in mind. That's the only way you ever get out of the Pirates-like rut of constant rebuilding.

hebroncougar
07-23-2009, 11:46 AM
I don't see anything contradictory. Sure we all want to win right now. I want to win the lottery. We just haven't seen anything from Walt to help us win now or later. All we've seen come our way is Corky Miller


Hey, don't forget the Taveras signing.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 11:49 AM
I doubt you'll see anything significant. Do you think acquiring a Micah Owings is building for the future? My guess is if Walt does anything it'll be minor if not downright insignificant

First on Owings: Redszone had artificially created a value for a player that did not exist in the real market. That trade was a salary issue to get something, anything of value in return they could. Considering nothing was able to be done (for lack of interest) before the deadline, and that the Reds even got that much for a player that had to pass through waivers first, I would say the return was as good as one could reasonably expect. But the purpose was two-fold... A) shed salary in the short term and B) create a different style of ballclub - one that focused more on defense. And whether people like it or not, they did improve the defense while actually maintaining about the same caliber of offense.

Walt is in a no-win situation in the short term.

If he goes out and acquires a Matt Holliday or some other big-name player, while giving up a couple of the Reds' big prospects, people will surely have a problem with that because he 'mortgaged' the future for a rental, no less in a year where it might not even matter.

If he trades Aaron Harang, Arthur Rhodes, David Weathers, Bronson Arroyo, etc. for anything less than a ransom, people will say he got fleeced. But nevermind that there are many reports suggesting these players would not actually garner much of a return. Though it would seem to me Harang would have a lot of value, if Hal McCoy's report about what scouts say about him are correct, perhaps Redszoners would overestimate the value of Harang.

So with neither of these being appealing options, the best possibility for Jocketty here in July might be to virtually stay put. Maybe add another bat, if one becomes available that either does not cost much or is not a rental. Maybe trade a few of these guys for spare parts or a good prospect or two. But if he goes this route, people will go bananas for staying put - even if it might actually be the best scenario for the franchise (assuming these players' values truly are not real high) considering this team really is not far off from competing.

Next week won't define this franchise, as much as everyone is within their rights to be frustrated by past results. But if people want Jocketty to make a definition on his intent, it might have to be done while sacrificing results. Clearly this forum has demanded that doing nothing is not an option, even if it truly, behind the scenes, might be the best option. That's clearly not something that will go over well on this board. He really is in a no-win situation.

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Hey, don't forget the Taveras signing.

Or the Freel/Ramon trade.

Ohh... sorry... that didn't prove the point.

redsmetz
07-23-2009, 11:53 AM
Here's my problem with the fire sale crowd. I'm OK with trading some bullpen arms. Even Cordero. Fine. We can rebuild the bullpen, although it won't be nearly as easy as many assume.

I'm OK with trading some position players who don't fit long-term, like Edwin or Taveras. But no one wants those guys.

So that brings us to what's left: Harang and Arroyo. Are they overpaid? Maybe by a little, but even with their current performance level, they're not grossly overpaid. And while they've been up and down, they still have given this team plenty of quality starts. These are solid, established major league starting pitchers. Replacing them is going to be incredibly hard. We don't have any replacements in-house. Homer? Micah? I don't think so. Maloney? Not hardly. So you trade those two and you blow a hole in your starting rotation, and have we already forgotten how hard it is to patch that kind of hole?

If I trade those guys, I want major league-ready pitching in return. But who is going to give up cheap, major league-ready pitching for those guys? For Roy Halladay, sure. For Harang or Arroyo? Not going to happen. So then you're just trading them for maybes and salary relief. Which brings me to my last point ...

Let's say the Reds free up $36 million by trading Harang, Arroyo and Cordero. Does anyone here have any faith in this team being able to use that money to replace what those players provide? I know I don't. Look at the free agent market. If you have $10 million to spend on a starting pitcher, that's going to get you a guy like ... Aaron Harang. So put me down as solidly against any kind of trade whose chief value is dumping a high-salaried producer. (If you can find one that dumps a high-salaried non-producer, I'm all ears.)

I just don't see how trading Harang and Arroyo gets us any closer to winning. I'm not interested in adding a couple of A-ball prospects. All those trades would do is line Castellini's pockets. No thanks.

No, I spend my time and energy before the deadline and in the offseason trying to build on the pieces we have (Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Arroyo, Owings). I try to find a SS, a third-baseman, a left fielder and continue to search for more pitching. My focus does shift from guys like Rolen and Holliday to more long-term additions. I make everyone else available -- including big-league guys like Cordero, Encarnacion, Dickerson, Hanigan, Weathers, Rhodes and minor leaguers like Alonso, Stubbs/Heisey, Valaika, Francisco, Soto, Maloney, Roenicke, Cozart.

My goal is to go into next season with the solid contributing players we currently have bolstered by improvements to our three glaring positions and depth in the pitching staff. It doesn't appease the reactionary "burn it down" reflex, but I reject the notion that every team must be either a buyer or a seller. There will be a season in 2010, and if Walt reaches the conclusion that this team can't win in 2009, I hope every decision he makes is done with 2010 in mind. That's the only way you ever get out of the Pirates-like rut of constant rebuilding.

This is what my thoughts are on the matter and I think it's what Jocketty's getting at. And I think you've said something critical to this discussion - teams don't always fit into the black & white boxes of "buyer/seller". And it's critical we don't lose the long term view for the immediate now.

This team doesn't need the proverbial "fire sale" - we are in the position to know now what are actual chips are. I don't agree there isn't a market for Encarnacion, for instance. We're seeing now where we have surplusses, either in the minors or with the big club. Do I agree with Jocketty that we could make a run still? It could happen, but it's highly unlikely.

Of course, now it's a matter of finding the specific matches, the real trial, really.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 12:03 PM
My post was in direct reply to someone asking where was the Evan Longoria and Justin Upton for the Reds. I thought since they were recent arrivals that I could use recent arrivals. Apples to apples, you know.

As for your questions about who says we have a good system... wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that pundits said the Reds were one of the few teams that could swing a big deal at the deadline because it had enviable prospects?

Alfonso is being heralded as having the best plate discipline in the minors. Zach Stewart could see a September callup and have a role next season. Stubbs and Lehr started the AAA all-star game, didn't they?

And this doesn't even take into account (as it should, because they are examples of the system working) Cueto and Bailey and some of the young relief guys who are showing signs of being good-to-great major leaguers.

I don't even know where to start with this reply....

The Reds farm system is horrible for developing talent. Absolutely horrible.

Cueto, Votto, and Dunn are the only game changers to come thru the pipes since 2001. Bruce is a maybe.

Everyone else has just fallen flat on their faces coming thru the pipes.

Hopefully Alonso will be the next game changer, but Stewart, Stubbs and Lehr? C'mon....

IslandRed
07-23-2009, 12:05 PM
I guess the question is...when are fans allowed to legitimately question the direction of the franchise, the front office, and the ownership group?

Any time. Every time.

But no, I don't get flipping out over this article. People should know a GM isn't going to lay all the real cards on the table in a pre-deadline trade piece. Recognize the "we're still in the race" talk for the keep-buying-those-tickets pap that it is and move on.

If Jocketty was being straight about not doing anything solely for the short term but isn't planning a check-back-in-three-years fire sale, he's accurately judged where the Reds are, in my opinion. That doesn't make it an easy job to get from here to there, but that's the job he has.

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 12:10 PM
I don't even know where to start with this reply....

The Reds farm system is horrible for developing talent. Absolutely horrible.

Cueto, Votto, and Dunn are the only game changers to come thru the pipes since 2001. Bruce is a maybe.

Everyone else has just fallen flat on their faces coming thru the pipes.

Hopefully Alonso will be the next game changer, but Stewart, Stubbs and Lehr? C'mon....


Isn't that what started this debate? That the Reds neglected the farm for so long that we might just now be seeing the fruits of our renewed interest in farming?

So yea... it has stunk for a while. News flash!

But we have 2/5 of our roto right now as the result of our farm, and 4 of our starting eight. Other teams would LOVE to have produced Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan.

Lehr started the AAA all star game. Did they draw that honor out of a hat? Stubbs homered in that game. But yea... just kneejerk your reactions.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2009, 12:19 PM
Isn't that what started this debate? That the Reds neglected the farm for so long that we might just now be seeing the fruits of our renewed interest in farming?

So yea... it has stunk for a while. News flash!

But we have 2/5 of our roto right now as the result of our farm, and 4 of our starting eight. Other teams would LOVE to have produced Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan.

Lehr started the AAA all star game. Did they draw that honor out of a hat? Stubbs homered in that game. But yea... just kneejerk your reactions.

Using Lehr as any example is killing your stance. One he isn't a prospect and neither was 2/3 of the guys who played in the AAA AS game. And 2 he was with 3 teams before he was ever a Red and has been with one other team since his 1st go around as a Red. He's top of the line organizational filler and a guy who could pitch at the big league level in an emergency situation only.

Big Klu
07-23-2009, 12:19 PM
Isn't that what started this debate? That the Reds neglected the farm for so long that we might just now be seeing the fruits of our renewed interest in farming?

So yea... it has stunk for a while. News flash!

But we have 2/5 of our roto right now as the result of our farm, and 4 of our starting eight. Other teams would LOVE to have produced Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan.

Lehr started the AAA all star game. Did they draw that honor out of a hat? Stubbs homered in that game. But yea... just kneejerk your reactions.

To be fair, Lehr's manager, Rick Sweet, was manager of the IL in the AAA All-Star Game. I'm not saying that Lehr didn't deserve it--he's having a fine season at Louisville. But having Sweet make the decisions doesn't hurt.

It was also Lehr's second AAA All-Star Game start--he started the 2007 game when pitching for Tacoma.

M2
07-23-2009, 12:22 PM
Direction should be measured by intent. My point all along is that in a week from now, we'll know the intent of the franchise for this particular season. To criticize Jocketty for what he may or may not do at this juncture is like criticizing a long-distance runner for losing a race before he's crossed the finish line.

He's been lapped and you're acting like we should wait to see if he starts sprinting.

Sorry, but this is Groundhog Day stuff around here. What you're saying might be new to you, but this board has done this dance too many times. We can do it in our sleep at this point. We know what he's going to do. It will involve some vets for some mediocre prospects and fringe players. If he's lucky, one of those fringe guys will turn out to be another Masset. The fundamental chemistry of the Reds not being good enough to matter isn't going to change.

M2
07-23-2009, 12:25 PM
My goal is to go into next season with the solid contributing players we currently have bolstered by improvements to our three glaring positional holes and depth in the pitching staff. It doesn't appease the reactionary "burn it down" reflex, but I reject the notion that every team must be either a buyer or a seller. There will be a season in 2010, and if Walt reaches the conclusion that this team can't win in 2009, I hope every decision he makes is done with 2010 in mind. That's the only way you ever get out of the Pirates-like rut of constant rebuilding.

Agreed completely.

Of course, what people are reacting to is that Walt's canned GM blather is an indication he is in no way ready to commit the acts necessary to bringing something like what you're talking to fruition.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 12:35 PM
He's been lapped and you're acting like we should wait to see if he starts sprinting.

Sorry, but this is Groundhog Day stuff around here. What you're saying might be new to you, but this board has done this dance too many times. We can do it in our sleep at this point. We know what he's going to do. It will involve some vets for some mediocre prospects and fringe players. If he's lucky, one of those fringe guys will turn out to be another Masset. The fundamental chemistry of the Reds not being good enough to matter isn't going to change.

How has he been lapped? Goodness. The Reds have been in the thick of the division race until the past week or two despite missing over 110 games from their starting 1B, 3B and (to the lesser extent), SS as well as two DL stints from the Reds ace of last year's staff. And for once, the Reds have a bonafide farm system in which to feed the big league club. When was the last time you could honestly say that?

The dude has been the GM only about a year and a half or less. And while he has not done a lot, the Reds are actually closer to competing now than they have been since 2000. And frankly, I think doing very little was the best move he could have made to this point (though I certainly would have liked to see a LF replacement in the offseason).

What is it you're looking for, exactly, that can be cured at this moment? Tell me what it is that Walt Jocketty can do, this week, to put the franchise where it needs to be? Everyone seems to have the right questions but I have not seen anyone come up with the right answers - not in the present. We can rehash plenty of things in the past, but nothing this week that Reds fans want to see him do is realistic, at least from what I'm reading.

I'm not saying everything is all rosy. Nor am I suggesting folks don't have a darn good reason to be frustrated. However, Jocketty has a proven track record and unlike past seasons, I see a plethora of good news on the horizon so I don't see a reason to have any knee-jerk reactions. I don't see what the Reds can or need to do this week to drastically change the franchise. For once, since going all out is probably not a wise idea this season, making minor adjustments is likely the way to go.

WMR
07-23-2009, 12:36 PM
He's been lapped and you're acting like we should wait to see if he starts sprinting.

Sorry, but this is Groundhog Day stuff around here. What you're saying might be new to you, but this board has done this dance too many times. We can do it in our sleep at this point. We know what he's going to do. It will involve some vets for some mediocre prospects and fringe players. If he's lucky, one of those fringe guys will turn out to be another Masset. The fundamental chemistry of the Reds not being good enough to matter isn't going to change.

Damn I feel like I should be giving you my credit card number and calling you Miss Cleo.

MikeS21
07-23-2009, 12:38 PM
Count me as one of those perplexed by the criticism of Walt's statements.

The most obvious reason he said was he said is because that the instant Jocketty appears as a "seller," his trading chips suddenly lose value. The longer he can appear to be satisfied to stand pat, or even appear to make a run for the division, the better offers he will get from other teams.

I'd rather see Walt hold out for the best deals, rather than squandering his assests on sub-par talent that can't help us this year, or any future year.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Here was my brief list of Walt miscalculations from the game thread the other night. It's hardly exhaustive. Oh, and for the record, Chris Dickerson has a 365OBP and an OPS 150 points higher than Taveras, so I don't understand your reference.

Everyone was gaga for Dickerson based on his cup of coffee last year. His OPS is now plummeting towards 700. Maybe he is being exposed now that he has gotten more time. But he isn't doing well at the plate.


Aside from a few minor bullpen additions, Walt's next significant accurate evaluation will virtually be his first.

Many on here made some evaluations of some expensive, big name FAs that they wanted Walt to sign to multi-year deals last off-season. He didn't sign them. Those were some accurate evaluations. No one wants to address the obsession that some had with guys like Burrell and Bradley for the LF opening. This board would be up in flames if Bradley was doing this with a 3 year, $30MM contract in Cincy.


He has a plus defender 370OBP CF and leadoff hitter in house, but he opts to spend $6.5 million to replace him with an erratic defender 290OBP blackhole. He gambles that career year JHJ is the new norm, and loses. Despite a desperate need for both a franchise SS, and a RHH big bopper in LF, he decides to stand pat (or rely upon reclamation projects). He accepts a low velocity, control-challenged Owings to be an acceptable return for a 900+OPS LF like Dunn, then doesn't replace the lost production. He errantly promotes Homer Bailey repeatedly, rather than trying to maximize his trade value at AAA. He fails to move Arroyo, despite Bronson posting 100IP of 3.47 ERA ball in the 2nd half of last year, and reports that teams were inquiring about him...

Regarding Dickerson, he actually had a career minor leaguer in house with success in the majors in limited time. Let's not act like he had Carl Crawford in house and then benched him for Taveras. Dickerson's OBP over the last 28 days is .324. I'm not calling him a .370 OBP guy just yet.

Owings (and Buck) was the return for 1 month worth of Adam Dunn. That was a shrewd move since he wasn't coming back.


We're spinning our wheels here, and haven't added any impact MLB talent in well over a year, in the process.

So, why couldn't we have...

1.) Used this flourishing farm system you speak of to acquire the franchise SS we desperately need(ed)? Perhaps a guy like Escobar, who has burned a lot of bridges in Atlanta, would look pretty great hitting .300+/370OBP in the #2 slot instead of teacher's pet JHJ? That's just one option we probably had.

I've seen numerous reports that he is both available and not available. I have no idea if he is available (or ever was), but he is also a headcase. Sure he would look good in the lineup, but not many teams look to add other teams' headaches.


2.) Divested ourselves of Arroyo's contract amidst the interest surrounding him last offseason, following his brilliant 2nd half of 2008?

I would be stunned if anyone wanted to take his contract on in that market.


3.) Acquired our stop-gap power hitting LF like Jermaine Dye to hold the fort until our ML OFers matured, and sold relatively high on Bailey in the process?

Does Dye get the team there this year? Did Walt have the approval on the money? Legitimate questions. But if he had the green light and pulled back, then this could be viewed as a negative against him.


4.) Left the CF/leadoff situation well enough alone for a fraction of the cost, and put the money utterly wasted on guys like Taveras and Lincoln (and even redundancies like Weathers) towards Dye's short contract?

Weathers has been solid. But I think this is a fair point. But again, do you view Dye as the missing link to the playoffs this year?


These were remedial moves that strengthen the team for the present and future, without depleting the farm. We would have been much more competetive in 2009, and still primed the for alleged long-term window opening in 2010 and beyond.

Thanks for detailing your beliefs, as I think this is the kind of back and forth that generates great discussion on the board.

Here's a good question: Say he traded Arroyo for prospects and traded Bailey for Dye. The rotation now looks like Volquez (inj), Cueto, Harang, Owings, someone else?

Where does that rotation get us? I know Bailey has been more cold than hot and Arroyo is either great or awful, but who is pitching now for Cincy? And take Weathers away also as you mentioned which hurts the bullpen. Where is this team's staff now, when you factor in Volquez' injury? Harang, Cueto, Owings, Maloney and pray for rain? That's not a playoff rotation by any stretch.

So we then rented Dye for the future of Bailey and a non-playoff finish. Not a great move. I'll take Bailey in that regard.

Also, I'm not sure who we would have dealt to get Escobar, but he wouldn't have come cheap at all.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 12:50 PM
By the way Edabbs, on one hand you are saying build around youth.

On the other hand you are claiming that Chris Dickerson is as bad as Willy T. Assuming that was remotely close to being true, how do you rectify that youth fails more often than it goes super-nova?

I mean, if you're going to pin your hopes to the youth that coalesces into a baseball powerhouse in 2013, and 60% of that youth washes out, then what do you do? Push the plan back to 2018?

I'm not claiming that Dickerson is as bad as Willy T. I am saying that everyone was using Dickerson as proof positive that Taveras should have never been signed. Now Dickerson is potentially being exposed, so if this trend continues then Walt actually had no one to play CF this season. Not to say that Taveras was any better, but it shows that he evaluated Dickerson properly and did something to try and rectify the situation.

And my hopes would be to add as much talented youth as possible and, when the young troops get close to ready, then you look to add proven talent via trade and FA. You don't spend $40MM+ on a closer when your roster is flawed. You keep that money to the side and spend it when Votto, Bruce, Cueto, etc are at that point.

So far Cordero will have made $20MM on his (most likely) two best seasons on bad Cincy teams. Now, as the young guys improve, we will have his two (most likely) worst seasons to enjoy when they need a closer and payroll flexibility more than 2008-2009. That's why the signing sucked and that's why you try and hold back from adding FAs until your team is ready to make that leap.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 12:55 PM
And my hopes would be to add as much talented youth as possible and, when the young troops get close to ready, then you look to add proven talent via trade and FA.

You realize that your "plan" relies on the hope that your young troops (A) pan out at all and (B) enough young troops pan out at the same time so you only need a couple of FA's to fill the gaps right?

Basically the plan is hope.

Which, coincidentally, has been the cornerstone of the FO plans since 2000. Patch together a team, hope every star in the universe aligns, be out of it by June.

So I'm not really sure why your brand of hope is any different.

VR
07-23-2009, 01:00 PM
Lesson 1: Don't throw fastballs down the middle to Manny especially when the bases are loaded and it's a tie game.

I believe the plan was to throw such a plum, juicy meatball down the middle that Manny would choke on that fancy mouthpiece of his as he tried to say "awwww...you've got to be *#$$%bleeping me!", and meekly ground out.

Oh well.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 01:07 PM
You realize that your "plan" relies on the hope that your young troops (A) pan out at all and (B) enough young troops pan out at the same time so you only need a couple of FA's to fill the gaps right?

Basically the plan is hope.

Which, coincidentally, has been the cornerstone of the FO plans since 2000. Patch together a team, hope every star in the universe aligns, be out of it by June.

So I'm not really sure why your brand of hope is any different.

Of course. But in this age I think that middle and smaller mkt teams need to rely on hope as one piece of the puzzle. They aren't going to get the big name FAs. So they need to get those guys before they start making the $100MM contracts. How else can they do that?

M2
07-23-2009, 01:14 PM
How has he been lapped?

The club is imploding in front of you. Even with Votto, the offense is atrocious and there is no starting pitching depth. It is July 23rd and the Reds have self-identified as a bad baseball team. That's not going to change from here to the end of the season.

And there's no impact players coming up from the farm system before the season closes.


The dude has been the GM only about a year and a half or less. And while he has not done a lot, the Reds are actually closer to competing now than they have been since 2000. And frankly, I think doing very little was the best move he could have made to this point (though I certainly would have liked to see a LF replacement in the offseason).

You know when doing very little is a good idea? When you've got a good team. When you've got a bad team, doing very little means very little is going to change. It is in no way a good move, let alone an optimal one.


What is it you're looking for, exactly, that can be cured at this moment? Tell me what it is that Walt Jocketty can do, this week, to put the franchise where it needs to be?

osuceltic laid out a perfectly viable gameplan and it jibes perfectly with what I was saying in one of these threads over the past day. If the Reds want to make a serious run at 2010, Jocketty needs to start moving now. To be more specific, that's going to involve turning over four or five spots in the lineup (at least if you want a team that can score and defend) in addition to bolstering the staring pitching and relief corps (every team has to bolster the relief corps every season).

He can't put the franchise where it needs to be in a week or a month. Maybe he can do it in eight months if he starts today and starts by making key acquisitions rather than supporting acquisitions.

As for what he should be saying, I'd start with "I've got a lot of work to do."

Brutus
07-23-2009, 01:33 PM
The club is imploding in front of you. Even with Votto, the offense is atrocious and there is no starting pitching depth. It is July 23rd and the Reds have self-identified as a bad baseball team. That's not going to change from here to the end of the season.

And there's no impact players coming up from the farm system before the season closes.

Name me very many teams that actually do have starting pitching depth. You could maybe stretch that list to 3-5 teams and that's really about it.

The Reds are a bad baseball team as is. There's no questioning that. However, the Reds have not been fully healthy all season long and it appears they will not be. At full strength, I do not believe this was a bad baseball team. On the contrary, I think it was an average baseball team with the ability to be playoff contenders with a move or two. This team would be right smack-dab in the thick of a playoff race had injuries not set in.




You know when doing very little is a good idea? When you've got a good team. When you've got a bad team, doing very little means very little is going to change. It is in no way a good move, let alone an optimal one.

Or when you're a new GM with an eye on 2010 and trying to feel out your organization before making any rash moves.




osuceltic laid out a perfectly viable gameplan and it jibes perfectly with what I was saying in one of these threads over the past day. If the Reds want to make a serious run at 2010, Jocketty needs to start moving now. To be more specific, that's going to involve turning over four or five spots in the lineup (at least if you want a team that can score and defend) in addition to bolstering the staring pitching and relief corps (every team has to bolster the relief corps every season).

He can't put the franchise where it needs to be in a week or a month. Maybe he can do it in eight months if he starts today and starts by making key acquisitions rather than supporting acquisitions.

As for what he should be saying, I'd start with "I've got a lot of work to do."

Most of what you are looking for does not come by way of July trades. These are issues that (usually) need to be resolved in December and January, as more times than not, guys being traded in July are pending free agents or 'rentals.'

I've been saying for a few weeks that I want the Reds to make deals for next season, if possible, while trading off some heavier contracts if they can get value for them. However, that's not always feasible. It depends on teams being willing to trade guys that are not walking at the end of the season.

In reality, the Reds only need to turn over 2-3 positions. SS and CF are major needs right now, although CF probably has the necessary in-house options coming next year in the form of Stubbs or Heisey. And as much as people hate the Taveras signing, I would wager it was done with the express purpose of filling a gap until one of those two guys stepped into the picture.

That really leaves LF as the only other position to tackle. The Nix-Gomes platoon has not been bad, but it's not been good enough for a struggling offense. I'd as soon find a everyday LF. I'm fine with Encarnacion at 3B if the other positions get upgraded.

The Reds had themselves, despite injuries, in position to make a run for almost half the season. Had the injuries never set in, I truly believe the Reds were not a bad baseball team and would have been close enough that they could make a few upgrades for the stretch run. It didn't work out that way, so it's back to the drawing board. Good news is, not a ton really has to be done to brace for 2010 other than the aforementioned moves, retooling a few bullpen spots and maybe find one more starting pitcher (assuming Volquez and Cueto are both healthy).

But no matter what is needed, the July period is not typically the time to find it. That's not to say Jocketty shouldn't be trying, but if everyone is resigned to the fact the Reds are not in the race this year, I would hope people are realistic about what some of the players the Reds could trade might fetch with regard to being potential 2010 answers.

RANDY IN INDY
07-23-2009, 01:33 PM
As for what he should be saying, I'd start with "I've got a lot of work to do."

He knows that, but I don't think he should be broadcasting it to all of MLB.

M2
07-23-2009, 01:42 PM
He knows that, but I don't think he should be broadcasting it to all of MLB.

I think he should be broadcasting it to Reds fans. Right now, a year plus of relative inactivity on Walt's part has got people legitimately questioning if he's up for the job.

And he can claim he's neither a buyer nor a seller, just a GM looking to improve his team.

M2
07-23-2009, 01:58 PM
Name me very many teams that actually do have starting pitching depth. You could maybe stretch that list to 3-5 teams and that's really about it.

So the Reds should forget adding what they need to add because it's hard to do?


The Reds are a bad baseball team as is. There's no questioning that. However, the Reds have not been fully healthy all season long and it appears they will not be. At full strength, I do not believe this was a bad baseball team. On the contrary, I think it was an average baseball team with the ability to be playoff contenders with a move or two. This team would be right smack-dab in the thick of a playoff race had injuries not set in.

Few teams are ever at full strength. Losing Votto hurt. Losing Volquez hurts. The rest should be survivable. No one else who's been out has been doing well enough to be missed. Injuries are just an excuse for a club that was built to spill.


Or when you're a new GM with an eye on 2010 and trying to feel out your organization before making any rash moves.

That's absurd. He's had the job for more than a year and he's yet to make his first key acquisition. That's either a failure in knowing what to do or inability to get it done. Take your pick. What the Reds most didn't and don't need is a do-nothing GM.

Reds1
07-23-2009, 02:15 PM
"Getting (Alex Gonzalez) back will help." Even as requisite GM speak, that's painful.

Well if getting Gonzo back keeps Rosales on the bench it does help a little. :)

dsmith421
07-23-2009, 02:17 PM
That's absurd. He's had the job for more than a year and he's yet to make his first key acquisition.

I'm sorry, apparently you've forgotten Willy "Willy" Taveras?

flyer85
07-23-2009, 02:19 PM
He's had the job for more than a year and he's yet to make his first key acquisition. That's either a failure in knowing what to do or in ability to get it done. Take your pick. What the Reds most didn't and don't need is a do-nothing GM.
Most minds cannot comprehend genius at work. :thisyear:

dsmith421
07-23-2009, 02:20 PM
Walt's position certainly hasn't changed, he still has his thumb planted securely up his butt.

WMR
07-23-2009, 02:26 PM
Walt's position certainly hasn't changed, he still has his thumb planted securely up his butt.

:dancingco

princeton
07-23-2009, 02:30 PM
So far Cordero will have made $20MM on his (most likely) two best seasons on bad Cincy teams. Now, as the young guys improve, we will have his two (most likely) worst seasons to enjoy when they need a closer and payroll flexibility more than 2008-2009. That's why the signing sucked.

I'm bummed by CoCo's success, too :D

Brutus
07-23-2009, 02:32 PM
So the Reds should forget adding what they need to add because it's hard to do?

Nope. You were criticizing them for something very few teams are able to pull off. I simply didn't think it was fair to critique a team because they were not able to acquire good starting pitching depth. That's all I meant by that.




Few teams are ever at full strength. Losing Votto hurt. Losing Volquez hurts. The rest should be survivable. No one else who's been out has been doing well enough to be missed. Injuries are just an excuse for a club that was built to spill.

Injuries are a part of the game and certainly this team had little margin for error. But it's not prudent to call someone a bad baseball team if it's been clearly ravaged by injuries and reasonably would have been much better if not. If we're going to critique what Jocketty has done or not done, the fact this team, healthy, could have been in the race should be taken into account at least on some small level.




That's absurd. He's had the job for more than a year and he's yet to make his first key acquisition. That's either a failure in knowing what to do or in ability to get it done. Take your pick. What the Reds most didn't and don't need is a do-nothing GM.

It's only absurd if you want to ignore the possibility Jocketty has been looking toward 2010 all along. If you hold him to the standard he waltzed in here expecting to win immediately, then there's plenty of ammunition to rip on him for his lack of forcefulness.

However, I truly believe he figured he was about one or two years away. If so, it would have made absolutely no sense to make "key" acquisitions unless/until necessary. Those acquisitions would not have been this past offseason if that is indeed his plan.

membengal
07-23-2009, 02:34 PM
You are simply guessing when you say he is "looking to 2010". It is backward looking rank apology for Walt's inaction. It is supposition of the first order.

nate
07-23-2009, 02:36 PM
I think Walt was just saying the Reds position hasn't changed in the standings.

:cool:

Strikes Out Looking
07-23-2009, 02:36 PM
I think I miss Wayne Krivsky, is that wrong?

princeton
07-23-2009, 02:36 PM
You are simply guessing when you say he is "looking to 2010".

especially as he seems to be looking to 2015

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm bummed by CoCo's success, too :D

I'd rather have the $46MM.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 02:38 PM
I think I miss Wayne Krivsky, is that wrong?

Dead wrong. He would have added someone like Milton Bradley to his multi-year contract collection, if anything.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 02:39 PM
You are simply guessing when you say he is "looking to 2010". It is backward looking rank apology for Walt's inaction. It is supposition of the first order.

Practically everything on here is "guessing," as no one on this forum is working in the front office.

And it's not like I'm saying this after the fact. I was saying back in March that I felt Jocketty was looking to 2010. That's been my belief all along.

princeton
07-23-2009, 02:39 PM
I'd rather have the $46MM.

I doubt they'd give it to you. your posts just aren't very good :D

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 02:45 PM
I doubt they'd give it to you. your posts just aren't very good :D

I close threads with the best of them.

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Reality check.

How many wins is a healthy Volquez worth? He's been out for 6 weeks. Conservatively an extra 3-4 wins over his replacement?

If he stays healthy, we're a couple games out of first, and we're having a VERY different conversation on here.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 02:55 PM
Brian Anderson Asks White Sox For Trade
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 23, 2009 at 1:21pm CST]
Brian Anderson wants the White Sox to trade him, according to MLB.com's Scott Merkin. The 27-year-old outfielder explained to GM Kenny Williams why he believes he'd do better with another organization.

"I need to play every day and be an everyday big-leaguer," Anderson said. "I have more to offer. If it's not with the White Sox, then maybe it really is time for a change."



The former first rounder headed to Triple A with a positive attitude earlier in the week, after the White Sox activated Carlos Quentin. Anderson has a .238/.322/.319 line this year with a pair of home runs in 65 games.

Going for speed and D :evil: The sad thing is that he fits the mold for what the Reds apparently are looking for in OFers :(

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 03:01 PM
Isn't that what started this debate? That the Reds neglected the farm for so long that we might just now be seeing the fruits of our renewed interest in farming?

So yea... it has stunk for a while. News flash!

But we have 2/5 of our roto right now as the result of our farm, and 4 of our starting eight. Other teams would LOVE to have produced Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan.

Lehr started the AAA all star game. Did they draw that honor out of a hat? Stubbs homered in that game. But yea... just kneejerk your reactions.

2/5 of the rotation? Cueto we produced, Bailey's been a bust, so I hope you're not counting him as the other 1/5th.

4 of our starting 8? Cueto's a pitcher, so he's not in the starting 8, Votto's a game changer while Bruce is still a work in progress but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Hanigan? He's not a long term solution. So who's the other 1 of the 4 out of the starting 8? Dickerson? He doesn't start, so you can't mean him.

Lehr and Stubbs have done nothing until they produce at the MLB level, which neither of them has done. So, while I want to be encouraged that Lehr or Stubbs might be something, they're not anything yet. Hopefully they will become something.

Sea Ray
07-23-2009, 03:06 PM
The only reason walt should make a move is if he gets a nice offer from another team. Since that's an unknown I can't say he has to make a move. I will say he can't go into 2010 with this roster and expect different results. These guys won't magically get better.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 03:06 PM
I'm not sure I believe this myself but does anyone think that Walt's been sold a bill of goods?

Bob brings him in and tells him to work his magic like he did in StL. Walt takes the gig and wants to go after guys like Holliday and Dye. Bob tells him to hold his horses because the Reds aren't drawing 3M a year like they do in StL and the economy isn't that good.

princeton
07-23-2009, 03:08 PM
I'm not sure I believe this myself but does anyone think that Walt's been sold a bill of goods?

Bob brings him in and tells him to work his magic like he did in StL. Walt takes the gig and wants to go after guys like Holliday and Dye. Bob tells him to hold his horses because the Reds aren't drawing 3M a year like they do in StL and the economy isn't that good.

absolutely.

but why put your head in the sand? you're still GM for a team with interesting players. make it better.

KronoRed
07-23-2009, 03:11 PM
absolutely.

but why put your head in the sand? you're still GM for a team with interesting players. make it better.

Maybe he wants the interesting players here for when he takes over another team and rips off the next Reds GM :D

bucksfan2
07-23-2009, 03:16 PM
Practically everything on here is "guessing," as no one on this forum is working in the front office.

And it's not like I'm saying this after the fact. I was saying back in March that I felt Jocketty was looking to 2010. That's been my belief all along.

Same here.

GAC
07-23-2009, 03:19 PM
I have no problem with GM "speak". PR is what they do. What I cringe at is Baker's post-game comments explaining and rationalizing another loss... "Gee, you know, that was tough. We got guys on base in the 4th, 5th, and 6th innings with no outs, and we just couldn't find a way to get them in. That was tough. We have to get better at that. And Bronson loading he bases in the 6th, well, man, that really was tough. We'll just have to go back out there tomorrow and try again."

If anything, that Dodger series should tell not only us, but this FO, that even if the Reds could find a way to win this weak, weak division they'd get spanked in the 1st round of the post-season and sent home with their tail between their legs. And regardless of what we've seen out of this team in the last decade, that would be seen as improvement? Not in my books.

I want Jocketty to make trades/acquisitions that are more long-term. I think the guy is looking. And if something could happen that would help this team now, then he'd do it. But I don't want him sacrificing prospects for rent-a-players just to somehow give us a shot this year.

Will M
07-23-2009, 03:23 PM
If anything, that Dodger series should tell not only us, but this FO, that even if the Reds could find a way to win this weak, weak division they'd get spanked in the 1st round of the post-season and sent home with their tail between their legs.

I want Jocketty to make trades/acquisitions that are more long-term. I think the guy is looking. And if something could happen that would help this team now, then he'd do it. But I don't want him sacrificing prospects for rent-a-players just to somehow give us a shot this year.

agree.

i was encouraged by Jocketty saying we are not going to trade youth for vets. building a consistent contender should be his goal.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 03:24 PM
absolutely.

but why put your head in the sand? you're still GM for a team with interesting players. make it better.


But this is the guy who made the deal for Willy Tavares (perhaps at the behest of his manager) because we needed speed and defense at the top of the lineup. The guy who signed Mike Lincoln to a 2 year deal. Who decided to bring back Jerry Hairston, Jr.

Plus there's only so much he could have done otherwise. If he tried to get rid of Gonzo, do you think Bob would have given him the OK for that?

I agree that he seems to have been rather torpid as far as trading has gone but for one thing we don't want a repeat of the Stanton and Nationals deals which were done to shore up a part of the team that was awful and made it worse. And for another thing, if he really believed that Tavares was the answer for this team, I worry that sort of judgement will affect his judgement for other deals.

princeton
07-23-2009, 03:32 PM
I agree that he seems to have been rather torpid as far as trading has gone.

Abraham Lincoln described it well, before he replaced the Chattanooga commander. Walt is stunned and confused, like a duck hit on the head. DanO had the same quality.

M2
07-23-2009, 03:32 PM
It's only absurd if you want to ignore the possibility Jocketty has been looking toward 2010 all along. If you hold him to the standard he waltzed in here expecting to win immediately, then there's plenty of ammunition to rip on him for his lack of forcefulness.

However, I truly believe he figured he was about one or two years away. If so, it would have made absolutely no sense to make "key" acquisitions unless/until necessary. Those acquisitions would not have been this past offseason if that is indeed his plan.

Organizations that can't get anything done today are looking to the future by default. 2010, 2015, 2525, whatever.

And when will it make sense to fix glaring holes in the team? You see, I'd argue that getting a keeper in place at SS makes more sense than expecting to snap your fingers to get it done at some mythical date in the future.

RANDY IN INDY
07-23-2009, 03:37 PM
Organizations that can't get anything done today are looking to the future by default. 2010, 2015, 2525, whatever.

And when will it make sense to fix glaring holes in the team? You see, I'd argue that getting a keeper in place at SS makes more sense than expecting to snap your fingers to get it done at some mythical date in the future.

And how do you magically get that "keeper" in place at SS? It would be great, but not sure that it is out there to snap your fingers and get it done right now, unless you know something that everybody else doesn't.

Homer Bailey
07-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Walt:

"Our position has not changed. We are still not very good."

LoganBuck
07-23-2009, 03:49 PM
I just want to see something done. I can't take this status quo, stuff anymore. Slash and Burn, or Prune and Build. I have argued since last offseason, for another bat, and I want a real SS. Walt sat on his thumbs while decent bats took reduced pay to play elsewhere before spring training, and then he sat idly by in May and early June, while the lineup wasn't producing any runs. I posit that the pitchers were under too much stress to throw 2 run or less baseball. You can't tell me that it didn't cause them stress. Suddenly the only decent pitcher in the rotation is Bronson Arroyo, and two weeks ago he couldn't get anyone out either.

He has to do something, and that includes some frank talk from Bob (We aren't going to lose anymore) Castellini. Coming on 700 WLW with Bill Cunningham, and Lance McCallister on August 1st, to tell the fans some bogus story about waiting for next year won't cut it. I want some action, because for Walt to come out and say that "Our position hasn't changed", reminds me of the position the fans are in every year from Reds Ownership and Management.

Admit you screwed up, and fix the problems. Spend some money, and identify flotsam and be rid of it.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 03:50 PM
Abraham Lincoln described it well, before he replaced the Chattanooga commander. Walt is stunned and confused, like a duck hit on the head. DanO had the same quality.


:laugh:

M2
07-23-2009, 03:52 PM
And how do you magically get that "keeper" in place at SS? It would be great, but not sure that it is out there to snap your fingers and get it done right now, unless you know something that everybody else doesn't.

My point is, regardless of whether it gets done, it ought to be hovering at the top of the priority list. The argument Brutus is making is that it's perfectly fine to put off important, essential moves until later. While it may take time to make them, it should not be the organizational strategy to delay in addressing glaring needs.

I say you make "key" acquisitions as often as you can, ESPECIALLY when you're trying to remake a franchise. If you never start the project, you're never going to finish.

LoganBuck
07-23-2009, 03:54 PM
My point is, regardless of whether it gets done, it ought to be hovering at the top of the priority list. The argument Brutus is making is that it's perfectly fine to put off important, essential moves until later. While it may take time to make them, it should not be the organizational strategy to delay in addressing glaring needs.

I say you make "key" acquisitions as often as you can, ESPECIALLY when you're trying to remake a franchise. If you never start the project, you're never going to finish.

Pseudo Rep for this one. I can't agree more. FIX THE TEAM.

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 03:56 PM
1.) Used this flourishing farm system you speak of to acquire the franchise SS we desperately need(ed)? Perhaps a guy like Escobar, who has burned a lot of bridges in Atlanta, would look pretty great hitting .300+/370OBP in the #2 slot instead of teacher's pet JHJ? That's just one option we probably had.



Agreed. Let's hope that after AGon is finally booted after this year, SS will become a higher priority. Not that this is right, but I am hoping Walt gave a higher priority to other areas since he was stuck with AGon.. Again, grasping at hope here. I realize that ML ready SS that are good are tough or impossible to trade for. I actually don't think Escobar was really on the market for anything less than a king's ransom (ie Ceuto). The Braves aren't going to create a hole at SS when they are trying to win.




2.) Divested ourselves of Arroyo's contract amidst the interest surrounding him last offseason, following his brilliant 2nd half of 2008?


That would've been nice. Sadly, the $$ owed Arroyo made him unattractive. He's still not attractive in light of the falling prices last winter. Not many teams are going to want to take on him at an ace's salary. Sure, it would've been a great move, but I'm not sure it's possible. He was stuck with this contract from the previous administration.




3.) Acquired our stop-gap power hitting LF like Jermaine Dye to hold the fort until our ML OFers matured, and sold relatively high on Bailey in the process?


Looks like ownership didn't want to spend the money for Dye. At least Homer's value has gone up this season. I would not have foreseen that happening. But yes, that is a valid criticisim.




4.) Left the CF/leadoff situation well enough alone for a fraction of the cost, and put the money utterly wasted on guys like Taveras and Lincoln (and even redundancies like Weathers) towards Dye's short contract?


I don't remember hearing anyone complaining about Lincoln at the time he was signed. Hindsight is 20/20.. I figured that of Lincoln, Weathers, and Rhodes, one of them was probably going to implode, just due to risk profiling. That's the way relief pitching is. Just about every team makes a bullpen mistake every year. I can forgive one bullpen mistake, esp since Weathers and Rhodes have been so good.

Taveras is a valid point.



These were remedial moves that strengthen the team for the present and future, without depleting the farm. We would have been much more competetive in 2009, and still primed the for alleged long-term window opening in 2010 and beyond.

It's still a tall order to get a LF that can hit clean up and a young ML ready SS (who is actually good) without giving up a prime prospect.

Since we are using hindsight, perhaps the best move would've been to cash in Bruce or Volquez..

Is Walt a genius? No, but he did improve the team he got. Hernandez for Freel was a great move. The bullpen signings were solid. As edabbs said, he gave out no crippling contracts or gave up no major prospects. True, no impact players added, but the only impact players we really added in the recent decade were Hamilton and Harang. (Maybe Dunn too, not trying to start that topic up. Also, maybe Cueto/Volquez end up being that catagory) It's hard to find guys like that.

Even with all the injuries we've had, the team may have a better W-L record than last year. That's a decent accomplishment. Not one to brag about, but respectable.

membengal
07-23-2009, 04:01 PM
I am with Chip (who mentioned this in chat and in a game thread or two). I think the good ship Cincypop is going to re-up with Alex G after this year.

Oh what a day that will be on Redszone...

bucksfan2
07-23-2009, 04:04 PM
It's still a tall order to get a LF that can hit clean up and a young ML ready SS (who is actually good) without giving up a prime prospect.

I get a kick out of these statements. Seriously? Get a good, young, cheep, MLB ready SS, without giving up too much. Read that again and tell me how that is possible. While were are at it lets go out and get Halladay without having to give up any of our top 5 prospects, sign Holliday to a 2 year 15M deal and the Reds legit contenders.

I am all for the Reds to redesign their club. I can't wait to see meaningful baseball into September but realize there is no easy button to push. When I say I see a plan developing for 2010 and that Jocketty's goal all along has been geared for 2010 I get told I have my head in the sand.

Building a sustainable winner takes time. You can't reasonably suggest that Jocketty can pull that off in less than 2 years.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 04:06 PM
Walt:

"Our position has not changed. Where are we again? How do you work this damn GPS contraption?"

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 04:20 PM
I get a kick out of these statements. Seriously? Get a good, young, cheep, MLB ready SS, without giving up too much. Read that again and tell me how that is possible. While were are at it lets go out and get Halladay without having to give up any of our top 5 prospects, sign Holliday to a 2 year 15M deal and the Reds legit contenders.
.

Yep, and do it all without having much money to spend too. Tall order.

I don't think Walt is a God GM by any means, but he improved the team, despite being forced to jettison Dunn due to pending FA. He didn't improve it as much as I would've liked him to, but finally I see the team moving forward.

I'll take Walt's slow and steady approach to Wayne's reckless roster managment and flury of questionable acquisions any day. Wayne hit gold a few times, but often failed.

redsmetz
07-23-2009, 04:24 PM
And how do you magically get that "keeper" in place at SS? It would be great, but not sure that it is out there to snap your fingers and get it done right now, unless you know something that everybody else doesn't.

I don't think SS was on this year's agenda, much to the consternation of RZ. But frankly it made sense to ride out Gonzalez's contract particularly in hard times. Was it a given he'd get hurt again. Many here would have predicted it, but we generally do that around here. But unless something superb came along, it just wasn't a position that required being addressed this year. I know that's not a popular view, but it's the reality I think they operated off of.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 04:24 PM
I'll take Walt's slow and steady approach to Wayne's reckless roster managment and flury of questionable acquisions any day. Wayne hit gold a few times, but often failed.


If you hit gold enough, you're going to be rich.

Benihana
07-23-2009, 04:25 PM
According to Jayson Stark, the Reds seem to be thinking at least somewhat rationally behind closed doors.


• Behind the red door: Officially, the Reds haven't decided if they're buyers or sellers. But unofficially, according to teams that have spoken with them, they've already moved into at least a soft-sell mode. They're looking for a taker for Weathers' salary (which, by the deadline, will be a little more than $1.5 million for the rest of the year, plus a $400,000 buyout). And if a team has an appetite for the $17 million or so left on Bronson Arroyo's deal, "they'll be very happy to listen to you," said an exec of one club.

Trade Arroyo, Weathers, and either Rhodes or Cordero.
Acquire some players (LF, SS, SP?) that will help the big club 2010-2012.

bucksfan2
07-23-2009, 04:27 PM
Yep, and do it all without having much money to spend too. Tall order.

I don't think Walt is a God GM by any means, but he improved the team, despite being forced to jettison Dunn due to pending FA. He didn't improve it as much as I would've liked him to, but finally I see the team moving forward.

I'll take Walt's slow and steady approach to Wayne's reckless roster managment and flury of questionable acquisions any day. Wayne hit gold a few times, but often failed.

Not getting into a Wayne/Walt discussion but you can't turn around a club as fast as many want. You can't take a club that has lost for an entire decade, snap your fingers, get some of the most valuable commodities in baseball for next to nothing, and become a contender overnight.

I have little doubt this club is headed in the right direction. I have little doubt that this front office is competent in decision making. We have seen very little action on the trade front so far, and it may be a good thing. We have no idea what the return will be on any of the Reds players. A patient and prudent method is much better than doing things very quickly.

redsmetz
07-23-2009, 04:28 PM
I just want to see something done. I can't take this status quo, stuff anymore. Slash and Burn, or Prune and Build. I have argued since last offseason, for another bat, and I want a real SS. Walt sat on his thumbs while decent bats took reduced pay to play elsewhere before spring training, and then he sat idly by in May and early June, while the lineup wasn't producing any runs. I posit that the pitchers were under too much stress to throw 2 run or less baseball. You can't tell me that it didn't cause them stress. Suddenly the only decent pitcher in the rotation is Bronson Arroyo, and two weeks ago he couldn't get anyone out either.

He has to do something, and that includes some frank talk from Bob (We aren't going to lose anymore) Castellini. Coming on 700 WLW with Bill Cunningham, and Lance McCallister on August 1st, to tell the fans some bogus story about waiting for next year won't cut it. I want some action, because for Walt to come out and say that "Our position hasn't changed", reminds me of the position the fans are in every year from Reds Ownership and Management.

Admit you screwed up, and fix the problems. Spend some money, and identify flotsam and be rid of it.

Many of us keep saying this, but with the exception of Dunn, the "big bats" went to teams clearly capable of contending for reduced salaries. It was highly doubtful that they were coming to Cincinnati with our recent history for a reduce rate. And Dunn would have been a perfect fit, but he'll never play for this team again in his life and I can't blame him. Why would he want all that grief? I sure wouldn't.

And if Walt's going on Cunningham's show to give a State of the Reds address, he's a bigger idiot than most here think he is.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 04:29 PM
Trade Arroyo, Weathers, and either Rhodes or Cordero.
Acquire some players (LF, SS, SP?) that will help the big club 2010-2012.

Yes.

M2
07-23-2009, 04:31 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 04:39 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

The key guys aren't Krivsky guys. They key contracts you want to get rid of are.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 04:46 PM
Not getting into a Wayne/Walt discussion but you can't turn around a club as fast as many want. You can't take a club that has lost for an entire decade, snap your fingers, get some of the most valuable commodities in baseball for next to nothing, and become a contender overnight.

I have little doubt this club is headed in the right direction. I have little doubt that this front office is competent in decision making. We have seen very little action on the trade front so far, and it may be a good thing. We have no idea what the return will be on any of the Reds players. A patient and prudent method is much better than doing things very quickly.
I have a lot of doubt that this club is headed in the right direction. There has been no substantive behavioral change. About the only plus that I can think of that is improved is that a 1st round draft pick that is a pitcher actually has pitched in the majors and is still healthy. Other than that, it is business as usual, with only the names changing. The flip side of "patient and prudent" is opportunity cost.

bucksfan2
07-23-2009, 04:48 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

I get your point, but I think it is missing the real world implications.

Here is the way I look at it. The current MLB corner stones of the team now are Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, and Bailey. You can even throw Hanigan in the mix because he looks to be a very good defensive catcher who knows how to get to 1b. The issue becomes how do you add pieces to the team. Mark DeRosa, a nice complimentary player would have cost the Reds their best pitching prospect in Zack Stewart. We are not talking about a difference, rather a nice player.

Key needs for the Reds club are SS, CF, and LF.

CF - The Reds look to have two potential answers for CF in Stubbs and Heisey. It would be nice to trade one of them, but they wouldn't return a whole lot. Would you like to trade Heisey + for DeRosa?

LF - IMO the biggest issue for the Reds. They could have signed Burrell, but Gomes has played as well as Burrell this season. They could have traded for Holliday, but he was a rental. The could go out and sign a Holliday type player but he be an expensive risk.

SS - The most difficult position to fill. Everybody wants a young, cheap SS. The best SS on the market this past off season was Furcal. Furcal was coming off a season in which he played little due to a nagging injury. Not someone the Reds would want to invest in with such an injury risk. This off season the ideal player to target is Marcos Suctaro. He may be old, 35, but he wouldn't be a bad stop gap player if the Reds think Cozart is the real deal.

Trading pieces - Weathers, Rhodes, Arroyo, Harang, Cordero. The problem with the Reds trading pieces is they come with a price tag. Weathers and Rhodes will be the two easiest to deal, while the ladder three have contract issues to deal with. Are the Reds better off trading a Harang for prospects but also paying 1/4 of his remaining salary. Substitute Arroyo or Cordero in there and ask yourself the same question.

I see a plan developing. It has been painful this season because there is talent there, it just hasn't performed the way we had wished it had. If you want to believe that the Reds are in a continuous cycle of suckitude that is your prerogative. I just tend to look at it in a different light.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 04:52 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?


Because Bob said the losing would stop then.

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 04:57 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

Willy Taveras doesn't qualify?

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 05:04 PM
I see a plan developing.

Plans don't develop over time. That's called "winging it".

Highlifeman21
07-23-2009, 05:08 PM
Plans don't develop over time. That's called "winging it".

Or smoke and mirrors.

Kc61
07-23-2009, 05:11 PM
I get your point, but I think it is missing the real world implications.

Here is the way I look at it. The current MLB corner stones of the team now are Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, and Bailey. You can even throw Hanigan in the mix because he looks to be a very good defensive catcher who knows how to get to 1b. The issue becomes how do you add pieces to the team. Mark DeRosa, a nice complimentary player would have cost the Reds their best pitching prospect in Zack Stewart. We are not talking about a difference, rather a nice player.

Key needs for the Reds club are SS, CF, and LF.

CF - The Reds look to have two potential answers for CF in Stubbs and Heisey. It would be nice to trade one of them, but they wouldn't return a whole lot. Would you like to trade Heisey + for DeRosa?

LF - IMO the biggest issue for the Reds. They could have signed Burrell, but Gomes has played as well as Burrell this season. They could have traded for Holliday, but he was a rental. The could go out and sign a Holliday type player but he be an expensive risk.

SS - The most difficult position to fill. Everybody wants a young, cheap SS. The best SS on the market this past off season was Furcal. Furcal was coming off a season in which he played little due to a nagging injury. Not someone the Reds would want to invest in with such an injury risk. This off season the ideal player to target is Marcos Suctaro. He may be old, 35, but he wouldn't be a bad stop gap player if the Reds think Cozart is the real deal.

Trading pieces - Weathers, Rhodes, Arroyo, Harang, Cordero. The problem with the Reds trading pieces is they come with a price tag. Weathers and Rhodes will be the two easiest to deal, while the ladder three have contract issues to deal with. Are the Reds better off trading a Harang for prospects but also paying 1/4 of his remaining salary. Substitute Arroyo or Cordero in there and ask yourself the same question.

I see a plan developing. It has been painful this season because there is talent there, it just hasn't performed the way we had wished it had. If you want to believe that the Reds are in a continuous cycle of suckitude that is your prerogative. I just tend to look at it in a different light.


Frankly, I look at your plan and I see another decade of losing. Marcos Scutoro, Stubbs or Heisey, and a low budget left fielder will get you no place. And your cornerstones include several unproven or injured players.

At some point, the Reds have to go out and acquire very good proven players. This slow developing competent plan is great, but at some point they have to go after proven talent or the team will continue to be bad.

Because there is competition. The Cubs spend. The Cards spend. Even the Brewers now spend. As do the Astros. Nobody else -- except the losers -- adhere to this plan of perpetually adding young kids.

So, ok, we can all wait some more. Maybe it's not the right time yet. Ok, not a tragedy. But it's not enough to build a foundation. At some point you need to put up a house.

Big Klu
07-23-2009, 05:12 PM
Not getting into a Wayne/Walt discussion but you can't turn around a club as fast as many want. You can't take a club that has lost for an entire decade, snap your fingers, get some of the most valuable commodities in baseball for next to nothing, and become a contender overnight.

I have little doubt this club is headed in the right direction. I have little doubt that this front office is competent in decision making. We have seen very little action on the trade front so far, and it may be a good thing. We have no idea what the return will be on any of the Reds players. A patient and prudent method is much better than doing things very quickly.

I agree. This club is like a battleship, and you can't turn the ol' U.S.S. Rheinland around on a dime. I also think that the Reds are moving in the right direction. I also think that it is going to be a slower process that many fans want. (After all, we live in a generation where immediate gratification is the order of the day.) But as you say, patience and prudence are the wise courses of action.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Plans don't develop over time. That's called "winging it".

This doesn't appear to be a winging it type of situation.

nate
07-23-2009, 05:21 PM
Yep, and do it all without having much money to spend too. Tall order.

I don't think Walt is a God GM by any means, but he improved the team, despite being forced to jettison Dunn due to pending FA. He didn't improve it as much as I would've liked him to, but finally I see the team moving forward.

I'll take Walt's slow and steady approach to Wayne's reckless roster managment and flury of questionable acquisions any day. Wayne hit gold a few times, but often failed.

The team is moving forward?

It's one game behind last year's pace.

I think it's just unbalanced differently now.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 05:32 PM
The team is moving forward?

It's one game behind last year's pace.

I think it's just unbalanced differently now.

2007 final winning percentage: .444
2008 final: .457
2009 (as of today): .468

dsmith421
07-23-2009, 05:37 PM
2007 final winning percentage: .444
2008 final: .457
2009 (as of today): .468

After 94 games in 2009: 44-50
After 94 games in 2008: 45-49

But you're probably right, we might be able to crest that glorious .465 mark this year, with a fast finish. Clearly the franchise is chugging right along toward glory.

Unassisted
07-23-2009, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure I believe this myself but does anyone think that Walt's been sold a bill of goods?

Bob brings him in and tells him to work his magic like he did in StL. Walt takes the gig and wants to go after guys like Holliday and Dye. Bob tells him to hold his horses because the Reds aren't drawing 3M a year like they do in StL and the economy isn't that good.I believe there's a 50/50 chance it is true. If Walt retires quietly before the end of his contract, I will be convinced it is true.

IMHO, Bob wants to win games and not lose money. He differs from Uncle Carl, who wanted the team to make money and not embarrass him personally. Walt is probably the right guy to help Bob meet both of his goals. The issue is whether he realized how important and difficult not losing money would be.

RichRed
07-23-2009, 05:38 PM
After 91 games in 2009: 44-50
After 91 games in 2008: 45-49

But you're probably right, we might be able to crest that glorious .465 mark again this year, with a fast finish. Clearly the franchise is chugging right along toward glory.

On pace for 83 wins in 2012. Catch the fever.

I(heart)Freel
07-23-2009, 05:38 PM
Just because we don't know the plan doesn't mean there isn't one.

I'm continually amazed that people think smart business people would show their hand to their competitors.

Fans can clamor for some enunciation of a plan all they want. I don't think we deserve one. I for one don't need one. I'll still go to games next week whether or not I know that Bailey is being slotted into the roto next year and Arroyo is being shopped aggressively.

Let them do the behind the scenes stuff to the best of their ability. That usually means secretly.

One wonders, for instance, if stating that a right handed left fielder was the club's offseason target drew the price for one of them up unnecessarily?

Kc61
07-23-2009, 05:41 PM
Fans can clamor for some enunciation of a plan all they want. I don't think we deserve one. I for one don't need one. I'll still go to games next week whether or not I know that Bailey is being slotted into the roto next year and Arroyo is being shopped aggressively.

Let them do the behind the scenes stuff to the best of their ability. That usually means secretly.

One wonders, for instance, if stating that a right handed left fielder was the club's offseason target drew the price for one of them up unnecessarily?

The problem is not the lack of enunciation. The problem is the lack of positive action.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 05:41 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

Look, I understand what you're saying. Understand what I am not saying myself: I'm not saying that the Reds should sit on their hands.

I honestly think Jocketty looked at the market this year and analyzed his team. I felt this team was one year away (a real one year, not the tell ourselves it will be OK type of one year that Reds' followers have experienced in the past) so it's not irrational to think Jocketty felt the same way.

Your M.O. is that Jocketty should have done something - anything.

Problem is, if by chance Jocketty's goal really was to get ready for 2010, anything he does has to, by definition, help, not hurt, that goal.

This offseason, a lot of free agents were signing one-year deals because of the economy. The rationale from their agents was that they should play one year at an abbreviated cost, then test the market again a year from now hoping the economy would be better. The ones that did not fit this description were probably priced out of the Reds' ballpark to effectively maintain the necessary financial resources.

You can't snap your fingers now or this upcoming offseason any more than you could have this past offseason. It's easy to say the Reds should have done something, but there really was not much out there to get that would have helped them in 2010. The shortstop options out there were slim-pickings, beyond arguably Orlando Cabrera.

I don't think Jocketty sat on his hands, I just simply think he read the market and did not see anything that helped the Reds both short and long term. I think that will be the goal, with presumably any savings they may have made by not replacing the additional $5-8 mil they saved by not adding any further payroll (not that I'm naive enough to believe all of that will be reinvested).

I think the Willy Taveras signing, after I thought about it, made perfect sense from a logistics standpoint even if I thought the actual signing itself was questionable. Jocketty wanted a defensive, speedy center fielder to plug in this year while being able to keep Stubbs and/or Heisey in the minors one more year to season. The thinking, presumably, was that then one of these two would be ready in 2010 to take over in center, and they would have a veteran backing them up in case their growing pains ached worse than expected.

Jocketty did make several comments in the offseason and early in the year stating they were feeling out what they had and they did not want to ruin any plans they had for the future just based on short-sighted thinking. I remember this because it sent several people into a panic asking when the Reds would actually try to win. There have been plenty of signals all along that Jocketty did not expect to win this season and that he was thinking long-term. People just chose to ignore those signals or simply didn't like them when they were made.

If Jocketty had come out and said "we have a goal of fielding the best possible team we can in 2010" he may have been truthful, but Reds fans would not have taken that any better, as it's essentially saying the Reds are not trying to win now (or that's how folks would take it).

It's easy to say Jocketty should have done something. But if my hunch is correct, and 2010 and beyond was the goal, I'm really not seeing much he could have done to this point.

The one thing I would definitely do if I'm Jocketty - chase down Yunel Escobar and back the Braves into every corner possible. If it's true they're willing to move him, that is the absolute type of deal the Reds should make right now.

jojo
07-23-2009, 05:42 PM
My take-the Reds have made some progress. They entered the season with a legit expectation of being a .500 team and the reasonable hope that with alot of luck and most things goiing right, they might actually be in the race for a majority of the summer.

Well everything seems to have gone wrong except perhaps at the margins with one or two platooners. It kind of makes it tough to remember that coming out of spring training there was legit reason for tempered optimism.

nate
07-23-2009, 05:55 PM
2007 final winning percentage: .444
2008 final: .457
2009 (as of today): .468

See dsmith's post.

WMR
07-23-2009, 06:07 PM
After 94 games in 2009: 44-50
After 94 games in 2008: 45-49

But you're probably right, we might be able to crest that glorious .465 mark this year, with a fast finish. Clearly the franchise is chugging right along toward glory.

Condition/position, whatever. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhOKhJaM1QE

Maybe The Dude can replace The Dusty?

"Bob, you're out of your element!!!"

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 06:17 PM
If you hit gold enough, you're going to be rich.

True, but the problem is that Wayne stocked his teams with Stanton, Castro, Cormier, Maj, AGon, Bako, Valentin (sorry Chip), etc.. Putting enough bad players on the roster outweighs the truly great moves he did (which I acknowledge).

Wayne's faults:
totally ignoring defense.
Questionable bullpen building skills (although he got it right his last year)
Signing horrible players to backfill.
Poor judgement when giving out contract extensions.

That's why the Reds' W-L record slipped every year that Wayne ran the team, despite the fact that Wayne always seemed to be able to pull in one great player per year on average. (Phillips, etc).

IMO, this year's team was improved, despite the fact that Walt inherited lame ducks in the OF corners and had a lot of chaff (fortunately a lot of it like Bako was pending FAs).

It's not too much of a stretch to say that if Wayne was running the show, several marginal guys like Valentin, Freel, etc would still be on the team.

Again, I am not worshiping Walt, but I see improvement since he arrived. Granted, it's pretty easy to improve on a 74 win team (or whatever the 2008 record was), but at least we are moving forward.

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 06:27 PM
If the 2010 plan involves sitting on your hands and waiting for the team Krivsky mostly assembled to shift into another gear, then why is Jocketty the GM?

I'd get the argument that there's a 2010 plan if Jocketty had acquired anyone likely to make a significant difference in 2010. He hasn't.

That's not the plan.
I'd rather he do nothing than try to pick up another Cormier or a desperate trade to try to get this team to improve in pseduo contention.

We've got a few chips to trade, but they aren't that desirable.

Surely you don't believe teams are lining up to get Weathers, Cordero, Arroyo, and Harang? I'm sure they're trying to steal players like that from us, but there's no point in giving any of those guys away. Even Weathers.. What is the point in repeating the Mercker-Belisle deal? We don't need to trade Weathers for another Belisle. Only trade Weathers if we get something worth having in return.

Heck, I want to see action too, but it's a buyers market now, just as it has been for years. Teams can chose Halliday, maybe Cliff Lee, and some other pretty nice pitchers too. A team with money to absorb one of our veteran pitchers can be pretty picky and ultimately not give up many prospects to get their man. CC Sabitha didn't fetch that much last year, considering what an impact pitcher he was.. What makes us think that Arroyo is that coveted?

LvJ
07-23-2009, 06:30 PM
Paging Khalil Green....


http://www.lolstash.com/images/xiw6jui3vj9pdi1y4ts.jpg

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 06:31 PM
The team is moving forward?

It's one game behind last year's pace.

I think it's just unbalanced differently now.

Considering last year's team was fully healthy, the fact that this injury ravaged team is only one game behind last year's pace is pretty good.

The team played well when it was healthy.

If this team gets healthy, I think they will beat last year's win mark.
Now if Volquez is done for the year, that might be difficult, especially considering the other injuries.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 06:37 PM
Just because we don't know the plan doesn't mean there isn't one.

Whether its a super-secret plan or one laid bare for all to see, they better come up with a plan B, because their plan A sucks.

M2
07-23-2009, 06:43 PM
I get your point, but I think it is missing the real world implications.

...

I see a plan developing. It has been painful this season because there is talent there, it just hasn't performed the way we had wished it had. If you want to believe that the Reds are in a continuous cycle of suckitude that is your prerogative. I just tend to look at it in a different light.

All you did was list the current players on the team, the same guys Jocketty inherited. That is NOT a plan. In the real world the Reds have all the same holes they did at the end of last season.

The Reds are in a continuous cycle of suckitude. That's not a belief, that's not a way of looking at things. It's an incontrovertible statement of fact.

REDREAD
07-23-2009, 06:55 PM
All you did was list the current players on the team, the same guys Jocketty inherited. That is NOT a plan. In the real world the Reds have all the same holes they did at the end of last season.
.

Actually, I went through this exercise once. I looked at last year's opening day roster (not counting DL), There's only 12 or 13 players (can't remember exactly) from last year's OD roster still on the team.

So there's been churning. Most of it has been on the ends, like upgrading catching and OF depth and bullpen.. Not the sexiest of moves, but if you have little money to spend, not a bad place to invest.

I guess I disagree on the holes. We still have holes in the offense. Bullpen has improved. Defense has improved. I am not sure on the offense, it has probably declined.. So there are still holes, but not the same holes as the end of last season.. there's been some hole filling. Walt just had too many holes to fill.

M2
07-23-2009, 07:03 PM
I honestly think Jocketty looked at the market this year and analyzed his team. I felt this team was one year away (a real one year, not the tell ourselves it will be OK type of one year that Reds' followers have experienced in the past) so it's not irrational to think Jocketty felt the same way.

I honestly think I've heard that sentiment offered up a hundred times every season since 2001. Literally, your entire post - reruns.


Your M.O. is that Jocketty should have done something - anything.

He certainly should have done something in the past year other than spin his wheels.


Jocketty did make several comments in the offseason and early in the year stating they were feeling out what they had and they did not want to ruin any plans they had for the future just based on short-sighted thinking.

GMs are paid to know what they have, not feel it out.

M2
07-23-2009, 07:12 PM
Actually, I went through this exercise once. I looked at last year's opening day roster (not counting DL), There's only 12 or 13 players (can't remember exactly) from last year's OD roster still on the team.


Walt has acquired Taveras, Nix, Gomes, Hernandez, Sutton, Owings, Rhodes and Masset. Everything else he inherited.

In other words, he's added temporary filler while, according to some here, waiting for the franchise Krivsky handed him to lay golden eggs.

Me, I think he's like most GMs. He does some stuff, hopes for the best, does more stuff, hopes for the best again.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 07:12 PM
I honestly think I've heard that sentiment offered up a hundred times every season since 2001. Literally, your entire post - reruns.



He certainly should have done something in the past year other than spin his wheels.



GMs are paid to know what they have, not feel it out.

1. The hundred times that sentiment has been offered up has been over a span of now three different general managers and three different managers as well as a change of ownership just before that. That's an awful lot of turnover and very little stability.

2. He did do things. He did improve the defense. He did upgrade the catching position by trading Freel for Hernandez. He did sign Taveras, whether it turned out well is a different story. He did manage to find a decent platoon with Nix-Gomes in left. And in only a few months time, he did cycle half the 40-man roster into new bodies. These are not blockbuster moves, but let's not pretend he did nothing. To say otherwise is hyperbole.

3. GM's are paid to know what they have. But new GM's need time to learn what they have. You don't just show up on the job and automatically know the system inside and out. It's ridiculous expectations to expect any professional to show up and automatically know the company dynamic right away.

M2
07-23-2009, 07:29 PM
1. The hundred times that sentiment has been offered up has been over a span of now three different general managers and three different managers as well as a change of ownership just before that. That's an awful lot of turnover and very little stability.

The excuses for the team's plight have been extremely stable.


2. He did do things. He did improve the defense. He did upgrade the catching position by trading Freel for Hernandez. He did sign Taveras, whether it turned out well is a different story. He did manage to find a decent platoon with Nix-Gomes in left. And in only a few months time, he did cycle half the 40-man roster into new bodies. These are not blockbuster moves, but let's not pretend he did nothing. To say otherwise is hyperbole.

Window dressing. Said it at the time. Saying it now. Will be saying it in the future. You apparently bought into the schtick that something important had changed. Nothing has.


3. GM's are paid to know what they have. But new GM's need time to learn what they have. You don't just show up on the job and automatically know the system inside and out. It's ridiculous expectations to expect any professional to show up and automatically know the company dynamic right away.

Were the Reds playing games in secret before Jocketty took over? Could he not be bothered to pay attention while he was in the special assistant's role? Did he skip over assessing all the players on the Reds when he was GM in St. Louis?

It's ridiculous to assert that he shouldn't have known the fundamentals of what he had when he took the job. That he'd still be sorting out what he's got and what he needs more than a year later would be galactic incompetence.

Ltlabner
07-23-2009, 07:29 PM
It's ridiculous expectations to expect any professional to show up and automatically know the company dynamic right away.

If he can't figure out the company dynamic in 1.5 years of being around the FO he really ought to retire and enjoy a new hobby.

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2009, 07:31 PM
Walt has acquired Taveras, Nix, Gomes, Hernandez, Sutton, Owings, Rhodes and Masset. Everything else he inherited.

In other words, he's added temporary filler while, according to some here, waiting for the franchise Krivsky handed him to lay golden eggs.

Me, I think he's like most GMs. He does some stuff, hopes for the best, does more stuff, hopes for the best again.

Which begs the question, if Krivsky did such a damn good job that his team is on the cusp, why was the dude fired for his successor to come in and water the garden?

nate
07-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Considering last year's team was fully healthy, the fact that this injury ravaged team is only one game behind last year's pace is pretty good.

I wonder if the pace will still be "pretty good" when we're looking up to the Pirates in the standings.

traderumor
07-23-2009, 07:48 PM
I'm not sure how much credit Jocketty should get for improving the D. Getting rid of the statues in LF and RF was predicated on contract issues and age concerns. By not replacing them with good offense/bad defenders, but with bad offense/good defense does not seem to be a helpful tactital move. The rest of the guys were already here.

Cooper
07-23-2009, 08:13 PM
I have trouble caring one way or the other....it's this kind of empathy that the Reds should be weary of --but i get the feeling that they're just fine with holding steady and waiting it ...as a fan i think i'll dothe same and just not care....until they care.

IslandRed
07-23-2009, 08:19 PM
If he can't figure out the company dynamic in 1.5 years of being around the FO he really ought to retire and enjoy a new hobby.

More to the point, the company dynamic on the baseball side is supposed to be the GM's to define. Either he doesn't have the energy for an extreme makeover or he doesn't have the latitude to do what he wants, but either way, it suggests he's not real long for the office unless something changes.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 08:20 PM
The excuses for the team's plight have been extremely stable.



Window dressing. Said it at the time. Saying it now. Will be saying it in the future. You apparently bought into the schtick that something important had changed. Nothing has.

Haven't really bought into anything. I'm reading the tea leaves and reserving judgment. Everyone said all offseason this team would struggle. For three months, the team started teasing people and some wanted to go for it. Injuries kept piling up and the team could not sustain enough momentum. Now, when the team is back to where expectations were to start with, everyone is using the benefit of hindsight to rip on what should have been done. Other than Bobby Abreu, though, I've not seen one rational, realistic proposal on what the Reds could have done to have averted this problem for 2009.




Were the Reds playing games in secret before Jocketty took over? Could he not be bothered to pay attention while he was in the special assistant's role? Did he skip over assessing all the players on the Reds when he was GM in St. Louis?

It's ridiculous to assert that he shouldn't have known the fundamentals of what he had when he took the job. That he'd still be sorting out what he's got and what he needs more than a year later would be galactic incompetence.

He's had basically 1 1/2 years to assess things. Prior to the start of the season, he'd had no more than a year. That's about how long I would expect someone to gain intimate knowledge of matters within the franchise. But again, it comes back to strategy.

Everyone continues to say the Reds are without a plan. Fine. That's an opinion that one is entitled to, but it does not make it correct.

I keep asking this rhetorical question, but what should the Reds have done that may have helped them for 2010 this past offseason or to this point? Show me a free agent that got away that would help in 2010 they could have signed or a trade that the Reds turned down that would have improved the club.

Opinions are fine. Unfortunately there's a lot of hyperbole going around but no one has really supported it with any practical improvements that were available to the Reds thus far.

redsmetz
07-23-2009, 08:29 PM
Brutus, you're fighting a valient fight, but it's wearing me out. I agree with you, but I think those who disagree will only be satisfied when some of us acquiesce and join in the chorus of woe. I'm sure I'm overlooking what dunderheads the team's management is. Well keep up the struggle, pal.

M2
07-23-2009, 08:44 PM
I keep asking this rhetorical question, but what should the Reds have done that may have helped them for 2010 this past offseason or to this point?

Acquire at least one player to offer up some real help in 2010 and beyond. There's the whole of MLB out there and it's an exceedingly low bar to clear.

For the record, I didn't care about 2009 and never once thought the Reds had a viable shot with this team. The problem with the Reds is the club at this moment profiles as every bit as flawed as it was at the end of the 2008 season. You're offering Jocketty absolution for his failure to deliver progress because he shouldn't have been expected to deliver a miraculous turnaround. The two should not be conflated.

Chip R
07-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Wayne's faults:
totally ignoring defense.

He got rid of Lopez who was an indifferent fielder at SS at best. He signed Phillips and Gonzo both of which are very good defenders. He wanted to move Dunn to 1st where his glove may have been less of a liability. He got Jr. to move from CF to RF and put better defenders like Freel and Patterson in there.


Questionable bullpen building skills (although he got it right his last year)

Ask JimBo how easy it was to build a bullpen. Wayne didn't cover himself in glory but he at least recognized the bullpen was bad and tried to fix it.


Signing horrible players to backfill.

Lot of those guys were bad but your hero JimBo wasn't much better. Juan Castro, Gookie Dawkins, Roberto Bobby Roberto Bobby Kelly and all his other 5 tool OFers. Every GM is going to sign his share of dreck off the refuse heap.[/quote]


Poor judgement when giving out contract extensions.

He also signed Harang to a long term extention which everyone felt was great. I admit, Arroyo's was strange but the rest of them didn't handicap the Reds that much.

No GM is perfect. John Scherholz signed Mike Hampton and he's done exactly squat for them. If you don't make mistakes, you're not trying.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 08:54 PM
Brutus, you're fighting a valient fight, but it's wearing me out. I agree with you, but I think those who disagree will only be satisfied when some of us acquiesce and join in the chorus of woe. I'm sure I'm overlooking what dunderheads the team's management is. Well keep up the struggle, pal.

Yea I mean, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the fact this franchise has been in a rut. I just won't succumb to the woe is us mentality. The Reds might have it bad, but quite honestly, half of the franchises in Major League Baseball appear directionless to their fan bases. Some of that is the financial landscape and some of it is poor management. I'm sure the Reds' problems have been a combination of the two at various points.

I see people comparing the Reds to the Pirates' organization. Well, while I won't act as if the Reds have been a whole lot better, I look at the Pirates and in the past year they just gutted an entire roster of decent players, in one case or two, pretty valuable, for a whole bunch of of fringe prospects. People want Walt to act, but I can't fathom the outrage if the Reds' team was gutted for that kind of return.

Bottom line is this... In the past decade, this franchise has seen:

Three (3) owners
Four (4) general managers
Six (6) managers

all the while, at least as recently as 2005, the Reds are literally in the smallest media market in the United States with teams residing there in all of Major League Baseball. I kid you not. The smallest. Not a single MLB franchise (not even Milwaukee) as of 2005 resided in a smaller market.

Any, any business owner or manager would tell you stability is a major key to a successful business/franchise. It's even more vital when you have such a handicap as the Reds do.

I'm not going to pretend everything has been wonderful with the Reds. I'm also not going to be so empathetic of other clubs to act like the Reds are in dire straights relative to other franchises. But most certainly I'm not going to demonize any single front office official for their (in)ability to get the job done until this franchise finally gains some sort of stability to proceed forward.

You won't find that much turnover at the top in any organization, folks. I guarantee it. I've looked. You won't find it. Hard to win when you've a rotating door of managers, general managers, consultants and ownership. Even harder when you are in the smallest media market in America with baseball ownership.

*BaseClogger*
07-23-2009, 08:55 PM
Everyone was gaga for Dickerson based on his cup of coffee last year. His OPS is now plummeting towards 700. Maybe he is being exposed now that he has gotten more time. But he isn't doing well at the plate.

Chris Dickerson has been everything we wish Willy Taveras could have been. He's a leadoff hitter with a .356 OBP, he runs the bases well, he's a great defender in CF, and he even has a little bit of pop in his bat. All of this for league minimum. I guess I just don't understand the point in bashing Dickerson at this point. He is slowly developing into my second favorite Red...

Stormy
07-23-2009, 08:56 PM
Building a sustainable winner takes time. You can't reasonably suggest that Jocketty can pull that off in less than 2 years.

2 years will definitely be difficult when you haven't taken your first positive step nearly 1 1/2 years into your tenure.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:06 PM
Chris Dickerson has been everything we wish Willy Taveras could have been. He's a leadoff hitter with a .356 OBP, he runs the bases well, he's a great defender in CF, and he even has a little bit of pop in his bat. All of this for league minimum. I guess I just don't understand the point in bashing Dickerson at this point. He is slowly developing into my second favorite Red...

Not bashing Dickerson. But the truth is that many wanted to hand the keys to CF to him this season based on his 100 ABs last year. I am sure if Dickerson put a .738 and sinking OPS up for the first half and Walt made that choice, WJ would be getting blasted.

Dickerson looks a lot better when your other choice is Taveras. That's the truth.

Stormy
07-23-2009, 09:11 PM
Not getting into a Wayne/Walt discussion but you can't turn around a club as fast as many want. You can't take a club that has lost for an entire decade, snap your fingers, get some of the most valuable commodities in baseball for next to nothing, and become a contender overnight.

No one is asking for a 'snap of the fingers' turnaround. Critics are simply saying, identify the areas of need and make individual moves to address them for the future. Acquire pieces of the puzzle as you identify them. So far, Walt hasn't acquired anything resembling a long-term asset to this team.

*BaseClogger*
07-23-2009, 09:17 PM
Not bashing Dickerson. But the truth is that many wanted to hand the keys to CF to him this season based on his 100 ABs last year. I am sure if Dickerson put a .738 and sinking OPS up for the first half and Walt made that choice, WJ would be getting blasted.

Dickerson looks a lot better when your other choice is Taveras. That's the truth.

Very truth. But he's like our best OF right now, it's not just Taveras.

I wanted to hand him the keys because I though he had some upside, was cheap, and had an improving minor league track record. The opinion wasn't solely based on last September...

M2
07-23-2009, 09:18 PM
No one is asking for a 'snap of the fingers' turnaround. Critics are simply saying, identify the areas of need and make individual moves to address them for the future. Acquire pieces of the puzzle as you identify them. So far, Walt hasn't acquired anything resembling a long-term asset to this team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbex1kbops

TheNext44
07-23-2009, 09:18 PM
I am very amused at today’s discussion over the current state of the Reds. I have tried to get though every post, but had to skim a few, so I apologize in advance if I am repeating anything that has already been said.

First, this notion that this is a failed season is beyond ridiculous. The Reds are still very much in the race, and are a much, much better team, and more importantly, a better organization than they have been in a decade.

It is so easy to watch the Reds in the middle of a losing streak and declare that the team is a failure. But it only takes a brief look at the team and the season as a whole to understand that the Reds and this season have been a huge improvement over past years.

1) The Reds finally have a solid pitching staff, 1-12. During the past decade, the Reds have had a good bullpen every now and then, but they have never had good starting pitching. If you took the all the starters the Reds have had from 2001-2007, only one of them makes this staff, Paul Wilson, and he would be the fifth starter.
The Reds starting staff is not the best in the league, and it does have some holes, but it is definitely for the first time this decade, good enough to contend.

2) The Reds finally have a solid defensive team. Again, not the best defensive team in the league, but not one of the worst, as has been the case every year since 2000.

3) The Reds have a very manageable payroll. Sure, it would be better if they didn’t have so much tied into Harang, Arroyo and Cordero, but all those guys do contribute, even if not as much as their salaries dictate they should. What’s important, is that the Reds have very little tied up in dead weight. $4 for Taveras next year and $2.5 for Lincoln is about it. I would imagine that every team as at least that much dead weight on the books.

4) The Reds are very young. Everyone in the starting lineup is 28 or younger, except for Hairston/Gonzo at SS. The average age of all the pitchers who have started for the Reds this year is 26. The bullpen is old, but getting younger with guys like Fisher, Roenicke, Herrera, Massett, Burton and Manuel. The heart of this team should be around for many years.

5) The farm system is stocked with players that fit the above mentioned attributes, and most important, the ballpark the Reds play in. Look at Jocketty’s two drafts. Filled with sinker ball pitchers, and solid baseball players who have a position. He also instituted a very smart policy of going for cheaper, sure things early in the draft, and going after riskier players later. Paying a 10th rounder what you would pay a 5th rounder saves a lot money compared to paying an 8th overall above slot money.
Right now, the Reds farm system looks better than it has since the late 80’s when it developed, Larkin, Davis, Stillwell, Browning, Jones, Daniels, Sabo, O’Neill, Robinson, Armstrong, and Dibble. I am not sure if it will produce as many talented players, but it already has produced Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Hanigan, Roenicke, Fisher, and Dickerson. I think between Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Stewart, Bailey, Maloney, Wood, Cozart, Soto, Fraizier, Valaika, and Viola, there’s a good chance more than a few will contribute.

Most importantly, a solid plan is now in place, and so far, Jocketty has stuck to it. I think that everyone can agree, looking at the Reds the last decade, that this is the first time in a decade that a solid plan has been stuck to.

Many posters have begged for specifics, so here they are. They aren’t hard to find, unless you are specifically trying not to look for them.

The top 5 points make up crucial elements of the plan. Pitching, defense, youth, controlled payroll, and a farm system that fits into all that, and the Reds ballpark. While that may seem very broad and vague, it really is a stark departure from the Reds past plans, if you can say that there ever was a past plan.

Prior Reds plans revolved around building up the offense, with no regard to defense, and relying on scraps for pitching. Holes then were filled with expensive, long term contracts to mediocre talent that made it impossible for the Reds to do anything except sell at the trading deadline.

Now we are seeing a very definitive, very well thought out plan to overhaul the overall philosophy of the organization. This will probably not yield many more wins at the major league level this year, and maybe even not next year. But it is not meant to. It is meant to pay off in the long run, and provide the Reds with a strong organization that will be able to compete every year, and have the resources to go for it when the timing is right.

I look at it like Jocketty inherited a house that was falling apart. The previous owners had tried to hide it’s fundamental, structural flaws with new paint, fancy lighting, cool, expensive appliances and other window dressings. Walt first got rid of all the expensive appliances and window dressings and is working on rebuilding a stronger foundation, adding new copper plumbing, new wiring, and new windows.
The house looks worse than it did when he got it, but it’s finally on it’s way to being structurally sound. Once he accomplishes that, he can move onto getting the fancy window dressings and expensive appliances that fans love. Until then, we need to be patient.

M2
07-23-2009, 09:21 PM
First, this notion that this is a failed season is beyond ridiculous. The Reds are still very much in the race, and are a much, much better team, and more importantly, a better organization than they have been in a decade.

For those of us who think run differential is a truer measurement of overall team quality, the Reds pythag has them only four games better than the Nats. This is a fairly awful team.

There are pieces that can be worked with, but it means very little when the GM isn't working with them.


and is working on rebuilding a stronger foundation, adding new copper plumbing, new wiring, and new windows.

Where has he done any such thing?

Brutus
07-23-2009, 09:39 PM
For those of us who think run differential is a truer measurement of overall team quality, the Reds pythag has them only four games better than the Nats. This is a fairly awful team.

There are pieces that can be worked with, but it means very little when the GM isn't working with them.

If ever there were a misleading usage of the pythagorean, this would be it. Of the Reds -65 run differential (FYI the Nats is -120, pretty significant difference regardless of how that works out in expected wins), they are -54 this month.

To even suggest the Reds, as whole, are on the same level of the Nationals is not really looking at the entire picture. Before the month started, the Reds were a .500 team lurking within a few games of both the division and wildcard. These last 2-3 weeks do not a season make. I'm a fan of the pythag, but there's nothing worse than taking an extreme stretch of the season that skews the number and the represent it as a true measure of a team's ability.

nate
07-23-2009, 09:39 PM
Not bashing Dickerson. But the truth is that many wanted to hand the keys to CF to him this season based on his 100 ABs last year. I am sure if Dickerson put a .738 and sinking OPS up for the first half and Walt made that choice, WJ would be getting blasted.


Speaking for myself (and not those dreaded "blasters"), had Chris Dickerson been the CF from day 1 and put up the line he's put up so far, I'd be pretty pleased that the Corey Patterson show didn't have a sequel.

Let alone a trilogy.

paulrichjr
07-23-2009, 09:46 PM
Walt has acquired Taveras, Nix, Gomes, Hernandez, Sutton, Owings, Rhodes and Masset. Everything else he inherited.

In other words, he's added temporary filler while, according to some here, waiting for the franchise Krivsky handed him to lay golden eggs.

Me, I think he's like most GMs. He does some stuff, hopes for the best, does more stuff, hopes for the best again.

I agree M2. I think Krivs was twice the GM that Jock has been so far for the Reds. I hated the move when it was done to replace him and I still do. Think about this....Could you ever imagine Jock coming up with Hamilton? Could you then ever imagine Jock having the guts to turn him into Volquez? I honestly believe Wayne was heading in the right direction. Jocketty is just much slower and has less guts than Krivs. Even "The Trade" has proven that he knew what the true value of Kearns was...not much at all to anyone but JimBo.

wolfboy
07-23-2009, 09:49 PM
Speaking for myself (and not those dreaded "blasters"), had Chris Dickerson been the CF from day 1 and put up the line he's put up so far, I'd be pretty pleased that the Corey Patterson show didn't have a sequel.

Let alone a trilogy.

Agreed. I think Dickerson is a capable CF, especially for the money he makes. He gives you good defense, a respectable OBP, and an average bat at league minimum. That's not bad in my book.

The crime is that Taveras has about a hundred more plate appearances than Dickerson and has an OPS that's about 150 points lower. There were so many conversations on the board last year about the high number of plate appearances that were given to inexcusably terrible batters. New season, same story.

Stormy
07-23-2009, 09:53 PM
I agree M2. I think Krivs was twice the GM that Jock has been so far for the Reds. I hated the move when it was done to replace him and I still do. Think about this....Could you ever imagine Jock coming up with Hamilton? Could you then ever imagine Jock having the guts to turn him into Volquez? I honestly believe Wayne was heading in the right direction. Jocketty is just much slower and has less guts than Krivs. Even "The Trade" has proven that he knew what the true value of Kearns was...not much at all to anyone but JimBo.

Walt's forte when in St. Louis (where he was long dubbed "Wait" Jocketty prior to Mac's arrival) was in his ability to land impending FAs, whom many teams were hesitant to bid upon and risk losing at seasons end, with lesser prospect packages and then utilize the large payroll and franchise lure of St. Louis to extend them. Those tactics aren't an option here, where his job description is now diametrically opposed to what he did during his decade+ in St. Louis. So far, he's shown very little evidence to demonstrate that he has altered his methodology, aside from waiting and making small moves around the fringes.

We need a GM who can find a Phillips and a Hamilton in the rough, and then who has the mental resolve to move a fanbase favorite in his prime for a Volquez. To the degree that we are improved in terms of personnel and unit strength from the despair of the 2001-2005 period, it's a direct result of Krivsky's acumen. Walt hasn't made a single indellible imprint on any facet of this team yet. And those who tell you he's following a grand design may be projecting their own desires upon him, as he hasn't shown a propensity towards doing anything positive yet in terms of the MLB roster's construction. Absolutely nothing.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 09:56 PM
I agree M2. I think Krivs was twice the GM that Jock has been so far for the Reds. I hated the move when it was done to replace him and I still do. Think about this....Could you ever imagine Jock coming up with Hamilton? Could you then ever imagine Jock having the guts to turn him into Volquez? I honestly believe Wayne was heading in the right direction. Jocketty is just much slower and has less guts than Krivs. Even "The Trade" has proven that he knew what the true value of Kearns was...not much at all to anyone but JimBo.

When you think about it, the Hamilton/Volquez story has become quite the overrated story. Both have struggled mightily since they took the world by storm in 2008.

Stormy
07-23-2009, 10:00 PM
Agreed. I think Dickerson is a capable CF, especially for the money he makes. He gives you good defense, a respectable OBP, and an average bat at league minimum. That's not bad in my book.

The crime is that Taveras has about a hundred more plate appearances than Dickerson and has an OPS that's about 150 points lower. There were so many conversations on the board last year about the high number of plate appearances that were given to inexcusably terrible batters. New season, same story.

True across the board on the Dickerson and Taveras comps. Frankly, the same could be said about Hanigan. Despite more production, he has a fraction of the ABs that Hernandez garnered, and who knows if he'd have any if not for the injury first to Votto, then to Hernandez. The M.O. of the new regime so far has been for Walt to acquire utterly 'productionless' assets, and for Dusty to use them to their uttermost unproductive extreme. And it's called progress.

edabbs44
07-23-2009, 10:02 PM
Agreed. I think Dickerson is a capable CF, especially for the money he makes. He gives you good defense, a respectable OBP, and an average bat at league minimum. That's not bad in my book.

The crime is that Taveras has about a hundred more plate appearances than Dickerson and has an OPS that's about 150 points lower. There were so many conversations on the board last year about the high number of plate appearances that were given to inexcusably terrible batters. New season, same story.

Sometimes it takes the world a little while to figure people out. We have seen situations like this before. Keppinger is a great example. Ross is another.

Dickerson really has given us zero reason to believe that he is a long-term anything with his bat. The last month of .650ish OPS might be what he is. Especially when you consider that he wasn't much of anything in the minors. Hopefully I'm wrong. But I 'm not expecting Dickerson to be any kind of lmid to long term answer.

Kc61
07-23-2009, 10:07 PM
I look at it like Jocketty inherited a house that was falling apart. The previous owners had tried to hide it’s fundamental, structural flaws with new paint, fancy lighting, cool, expensive appliances and other window dressings. Walt first got rid of all the expensive appliances and window dressings and is working on rebuilding a stronger foundation, adding new copper plumbing, new wiring, and new windows.
The house looks worse than it did when he got it, but it’s finally on it’s way to being structurally sound. Once he accomplishes that, he can move onto getting the fancy window dressings and expensive appliances that fans love. Until then, we need to be patient.

Great post, I cut the quote down for size, but very thoughtful and well said. However, the analogy breaks down because a baseball team doesn't ever become structurally sound like a house does.

Once sound, a house stays that way for many years. In baseball, the core can evaporate quickly. Free agency. Injuries. A few bad decisions. You have to seize the moment when it comes or, next thing you know, you're rebuilding the core again.

I have admired Dan O' Brien's drafting skills. Krivsky's bold moves, particularly the Hamilton acquisition and trade for V. And Jocketty's focus on international signings and building up the farm from the bottom up.

None of these GMs, however, has shown the ability to make the major league moves necessary to win with the Reds. Walt can in the future, but hasn't yet.

So congratulations are not yet in order. Because it means nothing to have a good foundation if the house is perpetually bad. And, you know, if the rebuilding plan takes forever that's failure too. Because you lose entire generations of fans -- even if after decades you finally win a little. So the clock is ticking.

M2
07-23-2009, 10:09 PM
If ever there were a misleading usage of the pythagorean, this would be it. Of the Reds -65 run differential (FYI the Nats is -120, pretty significant difference regardless of how that works out in expected wins), they are -54 this month.

To even suggest the Reds, as whole, are on the same level of the Nationals is not really looking at the entire picture. Before the month started, the Reds were a .500 team lurking within a few games of both the division and wildcard. These last 2-3 weeks do not a season make. I'm a fan of the pythag, but there's nothing worse than taking an extreme stretch of the season that skews the number and the represent it as a true measure of a team's ability.

I'd say the Reds' true quality resides a lot closer to their 40-54 pythag than their 44-50 record.

The Reds played lucky in April (11-10, -14 run diff), above their heads in May (15-13, +20). They they began finding their level in June (11-15, -21). The current July collapse (7-12, -50) is hardly surprising. You're looking at a team settling into what it is, and we've seen the Reds do this a lot over the years (2008, 2006, 2002-4 being the best examples). When the wheels come off a team like this, it'll spend the rest of the season chasing down that pythag.

My expectation is that you'll see them drop roughly another 10 games below .500 from here on out.

Raisor
07-23-2009, 10:10 PM
Sometimes it takes the world a little while to figure people out. We have seen situations like this before. Keppinger is a great example. Ross is another.

Dickerson really has given us zero reason to believe that he is a long-term anything with his bat. The last month of .650ish OPS might be what he is. Especially when you consider that he wasn't much of anything in the minors. Hopefully I'm wrong. But I 'm not expecting Dickerson to be any kind of lmid to long term answer.


...and this is exactly how Walt brought in Willy.

Go with the guy that we know is going to stink instead of going with the guy that MIGHT stink.

And give him two years too.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 10:21 PM
I'd say the Reds' true quality resides a lot closer to their 40-54 pythag than their 44-50 record.

The Reds played lucky in April (11-10, -14 run diff), above their heads in May (15-13, +20). They they began finding their level in June (11-15, -21). The current July collapse (7-12, -50) is hardly surprising. You're looking at a team settling into what it is, and we've seen the Reds do this a lot over the years (2008, 2006, 2002-4 being the best examples). When the wheels come off a team like this, it'll spend the rest of the season chasing down that pythag.

My expectation is that you'll see them drop roughly another 10 games below .500 from here on out.

Injuries are a part of the game, but replacements of Votto and Encarnacion played some 40-60 runs below the expected production of the guys they were replacing while out of the lineup. That means the Reds were close to even differential if they had been full strength at that time.

Though Jay Bruce was struggling, his injury I think finally deflated the balloon last week completely and you're seeing the residual affects of a defeated clubhouse.

I come back to my post at #199. The Reds are the smallest media market of all MLB teams in America. Combine that with the ridiculous turnover there's been in a decade, and I don't know how anyone can reasonably expect this franchise to have a chance to accomplish anything of consequence. This franchise needs stability and a few years to right a lot of wrongs before it's fair to pile on. We can cite this team or that team, this manager, that manager or this GM or that GM as failures for reasons to say "this is the same old song and dance," but until any team, manager, GM or owner goes through a solid period of stability to put in order some semblance of a plan and see it out, we really have no credible period in which to properly critique.

M2
07-23-2009, 10:34 PM
Injuries are a part of the game, but replacements of Votto and Encarnacion played some 40-60 runs below the expected production of the guys they were replacing while out of the lineup. That means the Reds were close to even differential if they had been full strength at that time.

Though Jay Bruce was struggling, his injury I think finally deflated the balloon last week completely and you're seeing the residual affects of a defeated clubhouse.

I agree you're seeing a defeated clubhouse, but if losing an out machine (and I think Jay Bruce is essential to the Reds' future, but he was struggling mightily) is the straw that breaks your back, then you didn't have a very strong back.

Turns out getting Votto back wasn't the boost people expected. The team is 10-16, -56 since he returned. The offense is only scoring 3.69 runs a game during that stretch, an indication that one guy can't make up for a crew that's collapsing around him. And the pitching/defense is allowing 5.85 rpg during that same stretch.

Anyway, I don't expect them to get any less defeated ... which is why I'm saying that pythag is a pretty good representation of how bad this team is.


... but until any team, manager, GM or owner goes through a solid period of stability to put in order some semblance of a plan and see it out, we really have no credible period in which to properly critique.

You should walk into the gig with a plan. You can start working toward it immediately. It does take time to see it out, but the critique being leveled here is that Jocketty's produced nothing to see. How about add some players who'll help in that 2010-2012 time frame? No one would even worry overly much about the plan if there were warm bodies to glom onto. Jocketty doesn't have to deliver the whole solution in a single flourish, just show that he's working in the right direction.

cincrazy
07-23-2009, 10:46 PM
It's very clear that our position hasn't changed.

All it takes is a peak at the standings to reveal this.

Brutus
07-23-2009, 11:08 PM
I agree you're seeing a defeated clubhouse, but if losing an out machine (and I think Jay Bruce is essential to the Reds' future, but he was struggling mightily) is the straw that breaks your back, then you didn't have a very strong back.

Turns out getting Votto back wasn't the boost people expected. The team is 10-16, -56 since he returned. The offense is only scoring 3.69 runs a game during that stretch, an indication that one guy can't make up for a crew that's collapsing around him. And the pitching/defense is allowing 5.85 rpg during that same stretch.

Anyway, I don't expect them to get any less defeated ... which is why I'm saying that pythag is a pretty good representation of how bad this team is.



You should walk into the gig with a plan. You can start working toward it immediately. It does take time to see it out, but the critique being leveled here is that Jocketty's produced nothing to see. How about add some players who'll help in that 2010-2012 time frame? No one would even worry overly much about the plan if there were warm bodies to glom onto. Jocketty doesn't have to deliver the whole solution in a single flourish, just show that he's working in the right direction.

I completely agree about Bruce. For all the trouble we give Willy Taveras, Bruce had an identical OBP when he got hurt. The only thing, though, that the Reds did lose was their biggest power threat. Though the 72% out machine was dragging the lineup down, that mere presence or threat of a 3-run homer was enough to keep the Reds hopeful of an instant rally. But you're right, his production was otherwise subpar.

I see where you're coming from. I really do. I just don't know that Walt took over without a plan. Perhaps he did at first, but you have to get on the road before you can drive. If, in fact, Jocketty has been looking toward 2010 (and I cannot say he is or isn't, but I believe that's the case), then I imagine he does have a plan. It might not be a plan that has revealed itself outwardly, but all I'm saying is that no one can say clearly he does not have one. If we're having this conversation again at this time next summer, then most likely he either was not prepared or simply failed to follow through on his outline.

I, like you, want to see something. Anything positive to show this organization is going to turn it around. But there's still next week and this offseason to start the engine running. I just prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Stormy
07-23-2009, 11:11 PM
It is so easy to watch the Reds in the middle of a losing streak and declare that the team is a failure. But it only takes a brief look at the team and the season as a whole to understand that the Reds and this season have been a huge improvement over past years.

1) The Reds finally have a solid pitching staff, 1-12. During the past decade, the Reds have had a good bullpen every now and then, but they have never had good starting pitching.

How does this signal progress over the past 2 years, or advancement under Walt Jocketty? Every single starter, aside from Owings' 5.33ERA, was already present and performing in their current capacity prior to Walt's arrival. Likewise, aside from Masset, what long-term additions have been made to the bullpen at Walt's behest aside from natural progression of farm hands?

2) The Reds finally have a solid defensive team. Again, not the best defensive team in the league, but not one of the worst, as has been the case every year since 2000.

Only 2 positions have really changed. And you could argue that both of the changes acquired (Taveras, Hernandez) were actual downgrades from the inhouse solutions already present to inherit the positions (Dickerson, Hanigan), and that neither acquisition will even be with the squad in another year. That's our great defensive adjustment? It's a myth.

4) The Reds are very young. Everyone in the starting lineup is 28 or younger, except for Hairston/Gonzo at SS. The average age of all the pitchers who have started for the Reds this year is 26. The bullpen is old, but getting younger with guys like Fisher, Roenicke, Herrera, Massett, Burton and Manuel. The heart of this team should be around for many years.

The vast majority of that youthful core was already here. And frankly, aside from Jay Bruce, most of the young positional nucleus currently present on the team don't project to greatly improve their production ceilings. Phillips, Votto, EdE even Dickerson, Hanigan etc... already pretty much are what they project to become. So where is the inherent improvement coming from? You can't just wait for this group to mature into mammoth production. They're already here, and they're getting more expensive. I'm glad we're young too, but we need some impact players added to complement them.

Most importantly, a solid plan is now in place, and so far, Jocketty has stuck to it. I think that everyone can agree, looking at the Reds the last decade, that this is the first time in a decade that a solid plan has been stuck to.

What plan have you heard articulated, or have you witnessed anyone adhering to in principle? Walt hasn't done anything of merit with the MLB roster, but there is a long-term plan in place to win through building the current farm to optimal production?

Now we are seeing a very definitive, very well thought out plan to overhaul the overall philosophy of the organization. This will probably not yield many more wins at the major league level this year, and maybe even not next year. But it is not meant to. It is meant to pay off in the long run, and provide the Reds with a strong organization that will be able to compete every year, and have the resources to go for it when the timing is right.

Wow. So now Walt's design from the moment of his ascension was not to improve the team's MLB roster in 2008, or 2009, or even 2010... but instead simply to wait for a complete overhaul of the farm to take hold in the hopes of fielding a consistently viable homegrown team in 2011 and beyond? And to hope that in addition to the advent of the farmhands, that the window of the Phillips, Votto, EdE, Volquez, Cueto core is still open? It runs counter to every methodology he's ever utilized in the profession, and contrary to the inference that he's unlikely to want to stay in this small market GM position indefinitely, and yet you see it taking shape so clearly. I wish I could see the same.

M2
07-23-2009, 11:32 PM
I just don't know that Walt took over without a plan.

My take generally is most GMs have one plan - find some players, try to fix a few holes. If it's not working this year, then next year nominally becomes the target year ... unless it's a complete tear down, in which case there really isn't a target year.

For instance, I don't think Krivsky had a specific plan. He was hyperfocused on turning around the pitching and made real progress on that front, but the team in the field was a bit of a mess.

More than a plan, Jocketty needs to be active. He's got a lot to do and at some point he's got to tackle the top of the to-do list rather than the items at the bottom.

WVRedsFan
07-24-2009, 12:18 AM
Great counter-argument, Stormy. I agree with every point. We've seen little from the GM we have now to show that the club is improving. I get a kick out of people saying Edwin is still young (as he's been since he came up to the Reds). For crying out loud, all of the "talent" is pushing 30.

Hanigan will soon be 29, Edwin 26, Dickerson 27, Phillips 28, and Votto is the younster at 25. They should be in their prime with only decline to follow. That's enhanced with the old folks, namely, Hairston (33), as well as Nix and Gomes (both 29). How many on the roster are younger than that? Three. Cueto (23), Bailey (23), and Herrera (25). Remember, Volquez is 26 heading for 27.

Of course, many still feel Edwin is "still young", so it must be that these guys are too. They're not, and that's something to think about. What if they all decline next year? Then you've got a real mess considering the tumbling record this season.

TheNext44
07-24-2009, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
It is so easy to watch the Reds in the middle of a losing streak and declare that the team is a failure. But it only takes a brief look at the team and the season as a whole to understand that the Reds and this season have been a huge improvement over past years.

1) The Reds finally have a solid pitching staff, 1-12. During the past decade, the Reds have had a good bullpen every now and then, but they have never had good starting pitching.

How does this signal progress over the past 2 years, or advancement under Walt Jocketty? Every single starter, aside from Owings' 5.33ERA, was already present and performing in their current capacity prior to Walt's arrival. Likewise, aside from Masset, what long-term additions have been made to the bullpen at Walt's behest aside from natural progression of farm hands?

2) The Reds finally have a solid defensive team. Again, not the best defensive team in the league, but not one of the worst, as has been the case every year since 2000.

Only 2 positions have really changed. And you could argue that both of the changes acquired (Taveras, Hernandez) were actual downgrades from the inhouse solutions already present to inherit the positions (Dickerson, Hanigan), and that neither acquisition will even be with the squad in another year. That's our great defensive adjustment? It's a myth.

4) The Reds are very young. Everyone in the starting lineup is 28 or younger, except for Hairston/Gonzo at SS. The average age of all the pitchers who have started for the Reds this year is 26. The bullpen is old, but getting younger with guys like Fisher, Roenicke, Herrera, Massett, Burton and Manuel. The heart of this team should be around for many years.

The vast majority of that youthful core was already here. And frankly, aside from Jay Bruce, most of the young positional nucleus currently present on the team don't project to greatly improve their production ceilings. Phillips, Votto, EdE even Dickerson, Hanigan etc... already pretty much are what they project to become. So where is the inherent improvement coming from? You can't just wait for this group to mature into mammoth production. They're already here, and they're getting more expensive. I'm glad we're young too, but we need some impact players added to complement them.

Most importantly, a solid plan is now in place, and so far, Jocketty has stuck to it. I think that everyone can agree, looking at the Reds the last decade, that this is the first time in a decade that a solid plan has been stuck to.

What plan have you heard articulated, or have you witnessed anyone adhering to in principle? Walt hasn't done anything of merit with the MLB roster, but there is a long-term plan in place to win through building the current farm to optimal production?

Now we are seeing a very definitive, very well thought out plan to overhaul the overall philosophy of the organization. This will probably not yield many more wins at the major league level this year, and maybe even not next year. But it is not meant to. It is meant to pay off in the long run, and provide the Reds with a strong organization that will be able to compete every year, and have the resources to go for it when the timing is right.

Wow. So now Walt's design from the moment of his ascension was not to improve the team's MLB roster in 2008, or 2009, or even 2010... but instead simply to wait for a complete overhaul of the farm to take hold in the hopes of fielding a consistently viable homegrown team in 2011 and beyond? And to hope that in addition to the advent of the farmhands, that the window of the Phillips, Votto, EdE, Volquez, Cueto core is still open? It runs counter to every methodology he's ever utilized in the profession, and contrary to the inference that he's unlikely to want to stay in this small market GM position indefinitely, and yet you see it taking shape so clearly. I wish I could see the same.

First, just in general, if you read my past posts on the subject, I have been the first to credit Krivsky with the majority of the talent infusion in this current team. And as far as I know, Krivsky could have had the same plan in terms of pitching and defense as Jocketty, and Jocketty is just continuing it.

That doesn't change the fact that this is Jocketty's plan. The fact that he is using players he inherited from past regimes says nothing about the validity or intelligence of his plan.
He could have brought in other players that did not fit into the plan, like Burrell, Bradley, Abreu, or Dunn, but didn't because he was sticking to a plan. He could have traded any one of the starting pitchers for a big bat, but he didn't. He deserves credit for that, for sticking to his plan, especially when doing so is unpopular.

His plan is to improve the MLB roster when he can, without straying from the plan, without giving up youth, without blowing up the payroll, without making the pitching and defense worse, without gutting the farm system. Considering all those limitations, he's done pretty well in my opinion.

This "window" idea is a red herring. Before it was the Reds have to win during the window of Dunn and Kearns, then Harang and Arroyo, now it's Votto, Bruce and Cueto. If you think that your team will never produce any more quality players, you might as well stop being a fan, because it will be very painful. Teams turn over very fast these days due to arbitration and free agency. If you have a solid farm system, there always will be a window, but just with different players.

And the point of the solid farm system is not just to provide players to your MLB team, it also is to use to trade for the players you need. That has been Jocketty's strongest skill. He has used his farm system to acquire the following players over his 14 year career as Cardinal GM:

Dennis Eckersley
Ken Hill
Todd Stottlemeyer
Mark McGwire
Royce Clayton
Juan Acevado
Darrin Oliver
Fernando Tatis
Fernando Vina
Edgar Renteria
Will Clark
Darryl Kyle
Dave Veres
Pat Hentgan
Jim Edmonds
Dustin Hermanson
Steve Kline
Mike Timlin
Woody Williams
Chuck Finley
Scott Rolen
Larry Walker
Jason Marquis
Adam Wainwright
Ray King
Mark Mulder
Jeff Weaver
Joel Pineiro

That's 28 players or two a year and everyone was solid contributor when the were on the Cardinals. That is the greatest benifit of having a solid farm system, and a strong organization.

Stormy
07-24-2009, 12:46 AM
Great counter-argument, Stormy. I agree with every point. We've seen little from the GM we have now to show that the club is improving. I get a kick out of people saying Edwin is still young (as he's been since he came up to the Reds). For crying out loud, all of the "talent" is pushing 30.

Thanks, WV. I like quite a bit of the current core of the team, but the truth is that we are witnessing what they are currently capable of offensively. It's going to take a lot more than Bruce returning to health and progressing, or the arrival of an Alonso, Heissey or Frazier to make this a viable offensive unit in 2010. Walt needs to be identifying and addressing areas of weakness, as none of the 3 most glaring voids (SS, LF, mid rotation SP) are likely to be filled from within anytime soon. Avoiding the tough decisions while tinkering through another off season is not an option.

WVRedsFan
07-24-2009, 01:18 AM
Thanks, WV. I like quite a bit of the current core of the team, but the truth is that we are witnessing what they are currently capable of offensively. It's going to take a lot more than Bruce returning to health and progressing, or the arrival of an Alonso, Heissey or Frazier to make this a viable offensive unit in 2010. Walt needs to be identifying and addressing areas of weakness, as none of the 3 most glaring voids (SS, LF, mid rotation SP) are likely to be filled from within anytime soon. Avoiding the tough decisions while tinkering through another off season is not an option.

Spot on. Yes, these "Kids" will probably, maybe help, but a good farm system is not the only key. When there is not a solid, no-miss SS in the farm system, you go out and get one (if available). If there is not a solid outfielder that a no-miss guy, you go out and spend the money to get one. When your starting pitching needs an arm or you're banking on a 33-year old (or 28-year old) never was to lead your team, and the farm doesn't have that just yet, you go out and get someone to fill that void. Surprisingly, Jocketty has just played the same old game that we've seen from O'Brien, Krivsky, and now Walter--throw some junk at the wall and hope it sticks. It sometimes works, but not often.

My great frustration this year is that we went into the season emasculated from the loss of Dunn and Griffey. What did we do (and I'm not arguing about sending either away--they had worn out their welcome in many ways), but we replaced them with two journeymen outfielders, a "speedy" guy who couldn't hit a pumpkin if it rolled up to the plate, and the hope and promise of a below average utility guy who had a career year. If that isn't throwing Mud (in the void of having a better, more profane word) at the wall to see if it sticks, I don't know what is.

And witness the train wreck the Pittsburgh Pirates are, and they are only two games behind us in last place. Someone needs to evaluate what the club is doing, and make some corrections.

TheNext44
07-24-2009, 01:46 AM
Thanks, WV. I like quite a bit of the current core of the team, but the truth is that we are witnessing what they are currently capable of offensively. It's going to take a lot more than Bruce returning to health and progressing, or the arrival of an Alonso, Heissey or Frazier to make this a viable offensive unit in 2010. Walt needs to be identifying and addressing areas of weakness, as none of the 3 most glaring voids (SS, LF, mid rotation SP) are likely to be filled from within anytime soon. Avoiding the tough decisions while tinkering through another off season is not an option.

I agree with you on this, and I think Jocketty agrees with you on this. I don't think he is avoiding the tough decisions. He simply is not making any moves that would hurt the foundation of this organization. If he can fill those holes without weakening the team in other areas, he will, but only then.

A good example of this is the Volquez/Hamilton deal. I like the deal and would do it again if given the chance. But what Jocketty is trying to get to, is a point where the Reds can get a Volquez without having to give up their best offensive player, or if they have to give up their best offensive player, they have someone right there, ready to fill his shoes.

If he sticks to this, and builds a strong organization from top to bottom, next year it will be much easier to fill those holes, and even easier the year after that.

oregonred
07-24-2009, 02:14 AM
Looking at the 28-66 Nationals, I can safely come to the conclusion that the Schott/Bowden/Lindner trioka have literally set this franchise back 15 years. The Expos had one of the best farm systems since its inception in the late 60s. Bowden seemed to ruin the franchise in short order.

The good news is that about 15 years have gone by since that kick-butt team of 1995 that flamed in the playoffs to the Braves. Pitching is the key and finally we see some progress. Offense will always be easier to find. A 4.0 or below staff is what we need to actually print playoff tickets.

Walt hasn't done a thing yet, but I really do think we finally have a quality GM and an owner who really "wants" to win.

Ron Madden
07-24-2009, 03:45 AM
It's threads like this in which I wonder why half of you even visit RedsZone and still watch the ballgames?

Y'all sound like Nelson Muntz, walking a few steps behind Bart Simpson through life, just so when he screws up, you can jump up and say HA HA.

But hey... it's your life. Spend your time as you wish.

And here the club is, finally restocked and respected. The pipeline is very close to producing some ballplayers. Not one and then turn off. Consistently producing players. Only then can long term success happen. Using trades and free agency to supplement that pipeline. Trading from positions of surplus. Filling holes with short free agent contracts that aren't going to hogtie the organization financially.

I've been a Reds Fan going on 50 years (50) that's why I visit RedsZone.

Yes it is my life and yes I'm spending it the way I want to. (Thank You)

There is absolutely no evidence that this organization has restocked and retooled enough to consistently Identify Good Players, let alone consistently Produce Productive Players.

It's easy to keep blaming Bowden and Marge but exactly what have O'Brian and Lindner, Wayne and Bob or Walt and Bob done to right the ship? We are right where we have always been the past 18 years.

I've been a Cincinnati Reds Fan for a long time, I'll most likely go to my grave as a Cincinnati Reds Fan. There are many here at RedsZone just like me.

I think it's an insult to question our loyalty.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2009, 11:08 AM
Reds' pitching 11th in the NL in ERA and RA and dropping.

This team has all kinds of problems. But even fewer pitching solutions. The offensive problems could be easily dealt with in one offseason with just a slight payroll boost. But the pitching is several seasons away from resembling a playoff rotation.

Jpup
07-24-2009, 11:10 AM
Reds' pitching 11th in the NL in ERA and RA and dropping.

This team has all kinds of problems. But even fewer pitching solutions.

Along with a GM that won't do anything to improve it.

Marc D
07-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Keeping with the Walt thread saw this on MLBtraderumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/)





Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle (http://twitter.com/susanslusser/status/2818719246) passes along the latest on three Athletics not named Matt Holliday:

Mid-season acquisition Adam Kennedy says he loves it in Oakland and wants to remain with the A's.
The Twins are looking at Michael Wuertz and Orlando Cabrera as they attempt to improve their bullpen and middle infield.
Wuertz makes $1.1MM and Cabrera makes $4MM, so both are relatively affordable options for the Twins, who are 2.5 games back of the AL Central lead.


I'm thinking one of our relievers and JHJ could be just as, if not more, attractive a package. I'm not familiar with what the Twins system might hold but if we could get another bat in there for them I think Cuddeyer(sp?) is a good player for this team.

Interested to hear from those who know more about the specifics of some of these guys.

Edit**
ehh nevermind

Weathers/JHJ is a little more money for a little less production than Wuertz/OC.

Benihana
07-24-2009, 11:27 AM
Keeping with the Walt thread saw this on MLBtraderumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/)



I'm thinking one of our relievers and JHJ could be just as, if not more, attractive a package. I'm not familiar with what the Twins system might hold but if we could get another bat in there for them I think Cuddeyer(sp?) is a good player for this team.

Interested to hear from those who know more about the specifics of some of these guys.

Edit**
ehh nevermind

Weathers/JHJ is a little more money for a little less production than Wuertz/OC.

I doubt a defensive minded team like the Twins would want JHJ at SS. However, I would love to move David Weathers for Delmon Young. I think that deal makes a lot of sense for both sides.

Ltlabner
07-24-2009, 11:29 AM
Walt is locked in mortal combat with Dick Pole for the "King of Napping" title in the Reds Clubhouse. It's very time consuming work.

Marc D
07-24-2009, 11:29 AM
I doubt a defensive minded team like the Twins would want JHJ at SS. However, I would love to move David Weathers for Delmon Young. I think that deal makes a lot of sense for both sides.

I thought their infield need was at 2b, my bad.

wolfboy
07-24-2009, 11:47 AM
Sometimes it takes the world a little while to figure people out. We have seen situations like this before. Keppinger is a great example. Ross is another.

Dickerson really has given us zero reason to believe that he is a long-term anything with his bat. The last month of .650ish OPS might be what he is. Especially when you consider that he wasn't much of anything in the minors. Hopefully I'm wrong. But I 'm not expecting Dickerson to be any kind of lmid to long term answer.

No one needs him to be the long term answer. Heisey is probably that guy. In the mean time, he's not a complete waste of an at bat like Taveras is this season and Patterson was last season. Did I mention he's cheap?

No offense, but I don't see what your point is here. Are you mad that some people were really high on Dickerson after last season? To me, that was much less dangerous than being really down on Dickerson. That kind of thinking brought us Taveras.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2009, 11:56 AM
A-ha, knew it. But seriously there is supposed to be some rumblings about Weathers to the Rangers but I can't find a legit or even semi-legit source citing it, just chatter.


• Behind the Red door: Officially, the Reds haven't decided if they're buyers or sellers. But unofficially, according to teams that have spoken with them, they've already moved into at least a soft-sell mode. They're looking for a taker for Weathers' salary (which, by the deadline, will be a little more than $1.5 million for the rest of the year, plus a $400,000 buyout). And if a team has an appetite for the $17 million or so left on Bronson Arroyo's deal, "they'll be very happy to listen to you," said an exec of one club.

Jayson Stark (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090723)

redsfan4445
07-24-2009, 12:33 PM
A-ha, knew it. But seriously there is supposed to be some rumblings about Weathers to the Rangers but I can't find a legit or even semi-legit source citing it, just chatter.



Jayson Stark (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090723)

Nice to know the Cardinals and Brewers made moves and Walt did nothing.. its to late in my opinion to even think this team can make a run. I may not have a college education but COMMON SENSE that if the Reds did ZERO to help the struggling offense, ZERO results would happen. Guess the Cardinals and Brewers players have a good ownership that TRYS to go for it and the Reds who I thought would at least try, tell the fans "our position hasnt changed" which means they arent a buyer or seller and the same team will be together mostly in 2010.

Hard to see any positive out of this next week end of trading deadline.. To bad the Reds dont have LaRussa to entice to STAY as manager by doing something, instead have Dusty to give excuses next year for the same thing all over again..

nate
07-24-2009, 12:37 PM
A-ha, knew it. But seriously there is supposed to be some rumblings about Weathers to the Rangers but I can't find a legit or even semi-legit source citing it, just chatter.



Jayson Stark (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090723)

Well, it is ESPN:


From 2006: Carlos Lee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4000) to the Rangers, Aubrey Huff (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4479) to the Astros, Bob Wickman (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=2761) to the Indians, Austin Kearns (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5012)/Felipe Lopez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4254) to the Reds

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Well, it is ESPN:

Yeah I saw that, pretty lame because not sure it was just a typo the subject insuanated those 2 were also acquired for a playoff drive that season. Real funny because somewhere else in the piece he cited Cormier and Majewski to the Reds not helping either.

WVRedsFan
07-24-2009, 03:42 PM
I've been a Reds Fan going on 50 years (50) that's why I visit RedsZone.

Yes it is my life and yes I'm spending it the way I want to. (Thank You)

There is absolutely no evidence that this organization has restocked and retooled enough to consistently Identify Good Players, let alone consistently Produce Productive Players.

It's easy to keep blaming Bowden and Marge but exactly what have O'Brian and Lindner, Wayne and Bob or Walt and Bob done to right the ship? We are right where we have always been the past 18 years.

I've been a Cincinnati Reds Fan for a long time, I'll most likely go to my grave as a Cincinnati Reds Fan. There are many here at RedsZone just like me.

I think it's an insult to question our loyalty.Here, here. Well said.

GAC
07-24-2009, 04:00 PM
Hey Walt! Come out of there! We need to talk!

http://www.mikepellegrini.com/Graphics/butt_head.jpg

Sea Ray
07-24-2009, 04:06 PM
Not getting into a Wayne/Walt discussion but you can't turn around a club as fast as many want. You can't take a club that has lost for an entire decade, snap your fingers, get some of the most valuable commodities in baseball for next to nothing, and become a contender overnight.


You should be able to show improvement and we've seen precious little of that. I can remember the same debate during the O'Brien years. People said give him time. Well, we're still giving time and all we've seen are the deck chairs on the Titanic moved around a bit.

I(heart)Freel
07-24-2009, 05:00 PM
I've been a Reds Fan going on 50 years (50) that's why I visit RedsZone.

Yes it is my life and yes I'm spending it the way I want to. (Thank You)

There is absolutely no evidence that this organization has restocked and retooled enough to consistently Identify Good Players, let alone consistently Produce Productive Players.

It's easy to keep blaming Bowden and Marge but exactly what have O'Brian and Lindner, Wayne and Bob or Walt and Bob done to right the ship? We are right where we have always been the past 18 years.

I've been a Cincinnati Reds Fan for a long time, I'll most likely go to my grave as a Cincinnati Reds Fan. There are many here at RedsZone just like me.

I think it's an insult to question our loyalty.

I hardly questioned anyone's loyalty. I questioned why a fan who visits a fan site continually chooses to see the glass not only half empty but broken at the bottom and leaking out.

Or worse. You'd think some on here would rather root for someone to fail just for the satisfaction of saying I told you so. I'm not saying you do this. But reading the balance of this thread, you do get the feeling that plenty do. Hence my post about Nelson Muntz.

As for evidence, I see Votto, Bruce, Cueto and even Edwin and Hanigan and to some extent Dickerson and Homer (if they figure it out) as very recent examples of identifying and producing good players.

Again... judging the state of the franchise on the wins/losses record on the MLB level does not tell the whole story. If you think the minors are every bit in shambles and not improved at all then perhaps we are (as you say) "right where we've always been."

I would disagree and for that reason I think the future looks brighter. Or, I should say, I choose to view the future as looking brighter.

Raisor
07-24-2009, 05:20 PM
I hardly questioned anyone's loyalty. I questioned why a fan who visits a fan site continually chooses to see the glass not only half empty but broken at the bottom and leaking out.



It's usually the "half empty" people that still post around here in Sept, while the "half full" people are off watching football.

reds44
07-24-2009, 05:26 PM
I hardly questioned anyone's loyalty. I questioned why a fan who visits a fan site continually chooses to see the glass not only half empty but broken at the bottom and leaking out.

As for evidence, I see Votto, Bruce, Cueto and even Edwin and Hanigan and to some extent Dickerson and Homer (if they figure it out) as very recent examples of identifying and producing good players.

What reason does any Reds fan have to see the glass half full? I see a joke of a decade and a joke of a baseball team.

As for evidnece, this team can't hit and they can't pitch. And they're dumb on top of it.

There's no reason to see anything but this team is not good and it hasn't been for a long time, and there's no sign of it changing anytime soon.

The Reds are 44-51, and are well on there way to finishing 5th place (if that).

Falls City Beer
07-24-2009, 05:29 PM
What reason does any Reds fan have to see the glass half full? I see a joke of a decade and a joke of a baseball team.

As for evidnece, this team can't hit and they can't pitch. And they're dumb on top of it.

There's no reason to see anything but this team is not good and it hasn't been for a long time, and there's no sign of it changing anytime soon.

The Reds are 44-51, and are well on there way to finishing 5th place (if that).

Being untalented leads teams to do dumb things out of desperation, lose focus, etc.

I'm glad that acceptance of the team's poor pitching is beginning to reach critical mass around here; now maybe it's doing the same thing in the team's FO. Pitching first. Everything else later.

M2
07-24-2009, 05:30 PM
I hardly questioned anyone's loyalty. I questioned why a fan who visits a fan site continually chooses to see the glass not only half empty but broken at the bottom and leaking out.

Some people just aren't into baseball as an excuse to practice self-deception.

And, though you can't possibly know this, most of what you posted is reruns around here. Heard it all before - folks here are congenitally negative and the Reds look just fine, the future in fact is very bright. Been hearing it for a decade.

That doesn't mean they won't get it right this time, but optimism for optimism's sake isn't what will set Reds fans free. That will require astute roster management.