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View Full Version : Cardinals get Holliday...



mroby85
07-24-2009, 02:39 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AsjDnRSRg8lrToGhtAzJIyU5nYcB?slug=ap-cardinals-athleticstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

Difference between a team that tries, and the Reds.

BluegrassRedleg
07-24-2009, 02:52 PM
You said it.

Sickening, but what can we do about it? We keep accepting it and coming back for more.

texasdave
07-24-2009, 03:01 PM
derosa, lugo, holliday....and they probably aren't done.
Walt "we were buyers and we still are buyers' Jocketty - nada, enchilada.

BlastFurnace
07-24-2009, 03:02 PM
"Holliday has struggled in his first season with the A’s, batting .286 with 11 home runs and 54 RBIs."

That's struggling! That's an All Star on the Reds. Once again, the Cardinals do what they need to do. The Reds stand by and do nothing.

BLEEDS
07-24-2009, 03:10 PM
They gave up their #1 pick from last year, a possible 3/4 starter sometime down the road, and scruff.

I'm sure it's not what Bean envisioned, but it's pretty good considering.

If I'm Cardinal fan, I wouldn't be that happy with giving up those prospects unless they were able to extend him.
I'm thinking with Satan as his agent, he is likely going to hit FA. I guess you can get two draft picks for him after you offer him arbitration...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Red in Atl
07-24-2009, 03:12 PM
I have always thought he was a product of Coors and overrated. Especially considering the amount of money he would cost, plus the loss of minor league talent. I would rather have someone else, but regardless, I hate the Cardinals!!!

He'll probably win the triple crown there next year.

bounty37h
07-24-2009, 03:30 PM
derosa, lugo, holliday....and they probably aren't done.
Walt "we were buyers and we still are buyers' Jocketty - nada, enchilada.

but, but, but....theres nothing/noone out there.

xavr1
07-24-2009, 03:50 PM
Cardinals taking care of business. Its expected. At least he didnt go to the Cubs. I hate the Cubs.

Jack Burton
07-24-2009, 03:53 PM
You can put the Phillies, Dodgers and now the Cardinals in the playoffs. Pujols and Holliday? Crazy. Wild card is still up for grabs.

Jones1
07-24-2009, 04:06 PM
They gave up their #1 pick from last year, a possible 3/4 starter sometime down the road, and scruff.

I'm sure it's not what Bean envisioned, but it's pretty good considering.

If I'm Cardinal fan, I wouldn't be that happy with giving up those prospects unless they were able to extend him.
I'm thinking with Satan as his agent, he is likely going to hit FA. I guess you can get two draft picks for him after you offer him arbitration...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

When you have the best player in baseball on your team, probable the best manager, a fan base that rivals any and realize your a national league guy. Its a no brainer your probable gonna take less and sign with them even If Satan is your agent. Id say odds are Holliday plays for the Cards for multiple seasons.

And I'd trade what the cards did for Holiday knowing that in a St Louis second. Good teams make good moves and the reds, well we know what they do...

DTCromer
07-24-2009, 05:15 PM
When Yonder comes up here, where would Holliday play?

Why would we trade for him when we're not winning this year?

Why would we give up on some real good quality prospects for a hitter that isn't going to be the difference between us making the playoffs and sitting home?

Why would we trade for him when we're not winning this year?

Walt's doing the right thing contrary to what most "intelligent" Reds fans say.

BlastFurnace
07-24-2009, 05:22 PM
Why would we give up on some real good quality prospects for a hitter that isn't going to be the difference between us making the playoffs and sitting home?



I have heard about our "really good prospects" for years. How many of these prospects actually pan out? I would rather get a guy who is proven, pay him, and take my chances than one a farm system that hasn't provided squat in nearly 2 decades other than Adam Dunn.

The Reds stink because they are constantly rebuilding. Every year is the beginning of another 5 year plan.

Who knows what Holliday would do for our lineup. I just know what we are rolling out there right now isn't working.

BluegrassRedleg
07-24-2009, 05:28 PM
I have heard about our "really good prospects" for years. How many of these prospects actually pan out? I would rather get a guy who is proven, pay him, and take my chances than one a farm system that hasn't provided squat in nearly 2 decades other than Adam Dunn.

The Reds stink because they are constantly rebuilding. Every year is the beginning of another 5 year plan.

Who knows what Holliday would do for our lineup. I just know what we are rolling out there right now isn't working.

QFT. The Reds "top prospects" over the years read like a parade of flame-outs. Why should anyone believe those fortunes are changing?

I'm not even really complaining that they should have gone after Holliday. This is more about one organization that CLEARLY wants to win and makes an effort versus one that does not.

If what DT is suggesting is accurate, then the Reds should come out and say it. Then let the fans speak with their wallets.

GIDP
07-24-2009, 05:30 PM
Id rather keep my crappy prospects for a free agent walking and us not having even the crappy prospects any more. Then again thats just me.

fewfirstchoice
07-24-2009, 05:46 PM
Wouldnt it be great to be a fan of a time that cared. The Reds only care about money not fan support or wins. I wonder if they know that if they get the players they need to win they would make more money.

Boston Red
07-24-2009, 05:47 PM
When Yonder comes up here, where would Holliday play?


I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but are we really supposed to count on Yonder being even in the same universe as Holliday? I hope Yonder turns out to be great, but it's a little early to think he's going to be so good that a guy like Holliday would have to get out of his way.

BLEEDS
07-24-2009, 06:00 PM
When Yonder comes up here, where would Holliday play?


Left Field. You think Yonder is a consideration for a team with Holliday?!?!? I would rather consider trading Yonder for something else. As I've said before he currently mans the position of the best player on our team, he's redundant.




Why would we trade for him when we're not winning this year?


So we could win this year, and possibly next year if we could get him to sign an extension, though we'd have to probably grab Halladay in order for him to even consider it.




Why would we give up on some real good quality prospects for a hitter that isn't going to be the difference between us making the playoffs and sitting home?


He would be the difference, that is the point.




Why would we trade for him when we're not winning this year?


is there an echo in here?




Walt's doing the right thing contrary to what most "intelligent" Reds fans say.

I'd say he's done more wrong than right. I liked swapping terrible contract/player A (Freel) for terrible contract/good player B (Hernandez), but his signing of Taveras, Lincoln, and JHJ were bush-league horrible.

He needs to make a "Walt" type trade, you know something that will make a difference. It is probably 6 months too late, but something to give us a push to get us closer.

This move by the Cardinals probably puts them as Pennant favorites now, no need to do anything at this point. Game Over.
Problem was, we WERE in the game, whether deserved or not, and we refused to even TRY to win the game, heck we barely played.



PEACE

-BLEEDS

texasdave
07-24-2009, 06:25 PM
It's not really about Holliday. Yes, he may not be the perfect fit for this organization. But I refuse to believe that there isn't someone out there that could have helped this team now and in the future. And still we remain buyers that do not buy. Welcome to Cincinnati Reds baseball - Walt Jocketty style.

texasdave
07-24-2009, 06:26 PM
Somebody please wake up Walt and tell him that he can go to sleep now. This thing is over. Dollar dogs, anyone?

gilpdawg
07-24-2009, 06:57 PM
Holliday isn't even that good. I wouldn't have included Wallace in that deal. Seems like the Cards overpaid a little bit. I want no part of Matt Holliday for the simple fact that he's a FA to be, and you know he wouldn't want to re-sign here. What's a 2 month rental going to do for this team? Nada. So I don't really understand why everybody's spitting blood about this. I would love it if this blew up in the Cards faces and he didn't re-sign, and they're out Brett Wallace. (who was "untouchable" according to SI.)

bgwilly31
07-24-2009, 06:58 PM
Yep its sad but the reds season is over. and honestly it has been over. This team is no different than years past. Over and done in june.


Im not sure why some of you are griping so much about not getting holiday. Unless your just frustrated with the team in general.

Time for whooo-dey. Hard knocks starts in a couple of weeks. :beerme:

GIDP
07-24-2009, 06:59 PM
Oakland not only got Holliday for half the year, they also recieved more in return from the deal they sent to get him.

Not to mention found someone to take Houston Street, who they have been trying to trade for years.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-24-2009, 07:46 PM
But wait! Didn't some posters here say that we could get him for Stubbs, Encarnacion, and a pack of gum??? I'm confused, I thought we were a lock! LOL.

Sorry, but its just funny. Once again, another year people get their hopes as if we can somehow make a major trade for a big time player even though we haven't pulled that since the Junior trade almost 10 years ago. And once again, they're wrong.

It's time to just accept we're not making deals for any name guys with this organization, thats just the way it is. No one either 1) wants to come to this craphole or 2) has any pull in this organization to get it done even if the player was crazy enough to.

Jack Burton
07-24-2009, 08:26 PM
It's gonna be hard for this fan base to gather any hope until a new coaching staff is in place. This staff has proven itself unworthy of jobs in the Majors, especially for one of the most storied franchises in all of sports.

BlastFurnace
07-24-2009, 11:26 PM
It's gonna be hard for this fan base to gather any hope until a new coaching staff is in place. This staff has proven itself unworthy of jobs in the Majors, especially for one of the most storied franchises in all of sports.

It's just not the coaching staff. It's everything about this team. Six of the starting eight may be some of the worst in baseball. It doesn't matter who manages this team if they don't begin drafting better players and bringing in some talent that can compete.

mikemo14
07-25-2009, 12:20 AM
Walt could have had Abreu in the spring for a bargain deal. We lose out on Derosa to the Cards and now Holliday. I know that Holliday is a free agent to be, however the Reds could have offered arbitration and with Boras as his agent more than likely he wouldnt take it netting two number ones. if he did take it, what is so wrong with having a 29 year old OF who has put up great numbers his whole career. Seems like they are only pretending to be buyers and by the time they make a move it will be second rate talent. I predict St Louis will win it all.

40YrRedsFan
07-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Our poor drafts and poor minor league player development/coaching are the reasons we are a poor team now. Since the late '90's, our only draft picks that have made it to the majors and have had an impact have been Adam Dunn and Joey Votto. The list of players picked after our picks is an all star team.
Players we could have picked include: Berkman, Utley, Fielder, Y. Molina, Lackey, Lester, Cain, Br Roberts, Josh Johnson, Ludwick, Wellemeyer, Sizemore, Morneau, Hermida, Haren, Saunders, Alex Rios, Bedard, Granderson, Brandon Webb, and many more. The point is: what have our scouts been watching?
What have our minor league coaches and managers been teaching (or haven't been teaching?) The players that have made the majors from our drafts have to be among the fewest in numbers since the late '90's.

BluegrassRedleg
07-25-2009, 01:25 AM
The point is: what have our scouts been watching?
What have our minor league coaches and managers been teaching (or haven't been teaching?)

Two great questions. How many legit superstars has this franchise produced since the Big Red Machine? Think about it for a minute. Only a handful, and hardly any since the turn of the century.

GIDP
07-25-2009, 01:27 AM
Two great questions. How many legit superstars has this franchise produced since the Big Red Machine? Think about it for a minute. Only a handful, and hardly any since the turn of the century.

You can pretty much go down the list of every major league baseball team and say the same thing.

BluegrassRedleg
07-25-2009, 01:29 AM
Quick follow up to that last post... Has any team produced fewer stars since 1980?

We're going on 30 years, and the list would have Eric Davis, Barry Larkin, Chris Sabo (borderline), Paul O'Neill (borderline) and Adam Dunn (borderline).

Am I leaving anyone out?

I don't think you could find any franchise in MLB with a weaker list.

GIDP
07-25-2009, 01:33 AM
Quick follow up to that last post... Has any team produced fewer stars since 1980?

We're going on 30 years, and the list would have Eric Davis, Barry Larkin, Chris Sabo (borderline), Paul O'Neill (borderline) and Adam Dunn (borderline).

Am I leaving anyone out?

I don't think you could find any franchise in MLB with a weaker list.

Why dont you just go ahead and start naming the stars from other teams and see how many you come up with.

BluegrassRedleg
07-25-2009, 01:36 AM
Why dont you just go ahead and start naming the stars from other teams and see how many you come up with.

Not a project I'm eager to tackle at 1:30 a.m. on a Saturday. :)

Maybe for another time. I'd like to see it broken down like that.

GIDP
07-25-2009, 01:38 AM
Not a project I'm eager to tackle at 1:30 a.m. on a Saturday. :)

Maybe for another time. I'd like to see it broken down like that.

I really think you would struggle to find a team that really produces that many superstars.

FlyerFanatic
07-25-2009, 02:04 AM
I really think you would struggle to find a team that really produces that many superstars.

i agree with you. i dont know how many superstars are produced by teams. with free agency and trades happening all the time, its hard to bring up players that began in your farm system to become superstars. i think more than anything is we havent really had anyone come up recently that has become even viable as a major leaguer FOR US. i emphasize "for us" simply because look at all the players we got rid of that turned out to become solid players for other teams. its the same thing you hear with bailey, some people say if we part ways, he's gonna flourish and become a solid ace somewhere else.

i do think you have to begin to look at the player development our minor league staffs are doing. heck we have a roster full of guys who simply cant lay down sac bunts EVER. the reds cant spend spring training teaching players how to sac bunt. i'm sure AAA coaches are saying the same, but its gotta start somewhere right?

if the reds arent going to spend the money to go out and get players. they need to put the money into the farm system.

BluegrassRedleg
07-25-2009, 02:15 AM
I really think you would struggle to find a team that really produces that many superstars.

Maybe so. But I'd be willing to bet almost 90% of the MLB teams have produced more, even if the number is not huge.

Just quick off the top of my head in the current division:

CUBS: Grace, Maddux, Wood, Zambrano, Prior (before injury), Lee Smith, Palmeiro, maybe Dunston?

BREWERS: Fielder, Braun, Burnitz, Surhoff, Vaughn, Jenkins

ASTROS: Berkman, Bagwell, Biggio, Caminiti, Glenn Davis, Bass, Hidalgo, Oswalt, Wagner, Kile

CARDS: Pujols, Lankford, Drew, McGee, Coleman, Van Slyke, Pendleton, Morris, Wainwright (maybe on his way)

PIRATES: Bonds, Bonilla, Bay, Kendall, Pena, Smiley, Wakefield, A. Ramirez

BluegrassRedleg
07-25-2009, 02:16 AM
^ And just as a quick reminder, I'm being pretty liberal with the "star" label, as I was with the Reds by including Sabo, O'Neill, Dunn.

DTCromer
07-25-2009, 03:51 PM
Left Field. You think Yonder is a consideration for a team with Holliday?!?!? I would rather consider trading Yonder for something else. As I've said before he currently mans the position of the best player on our team, he's redundant.

I'd rather have Yonder at 1-2 mil a year for 5-6 years than Holliday at 12 mil or whatever he's worth, for 5-6.


So we could win this year, and possibly next year if we could get him to sign an extension, though we'd have to probably grab Halladay in order for him to even consider it.


We're not winning this year nor did I think we ever would. Holliday isn't going to stay here because of Halladay . . . he'd stay here because of $.

He would be the difference, that is the point.
Have you watched this team? No SS, no great leadoff guy, mediocre defense on the left side of the IF, and injuries have hurt us. Getting Holliday would've been a waste of $ and prospects.



I'd say he's done more wrong than right. I liked swapping terrible contract/player A (Freel) for terrible contract/good player B (Hernandez), but his signing of Taveras, Lincoln, and JHJ were bush-league horrible.

Signings of Willy, Lincoln, and JHJ aren't major problems. Signing Adam Dunn for 12 mill a year would've been a major problem IMO.

He needs to make a "Walt" type trade, you know something that will make a difference. It is probably 6 months too late, but something to give us a push to get us closer.

I have faith in the guy. He's done it before and he knows what he's doing. We're in great position to make a serious run in 2010.


This move by the Cardinals probably puts them as Pennant favorites now, no need to do anything at this point. Game Over.
Problem was, we WERE in the game, whether deserved or not, and we refused to even TRY to win the game, heck we barely played.


Again, we weren't going to win anyway. Injuries have hurt us more than any other team in the central and it's silly to make a trade JUST to make a trade. You waste some good prospects and money doing this kind of crap. We can't afford to make those mistakes.

PEACE

-BLEEDS[/QUOTE]

DTCromer
07-25-2009, 03:56 PM
I really think you would struggle to find a team that really produces that many superstars.

The late 90's Yankees had the best run of farm-hand prospects with Jeter, Posada, Bernie Williams, Rivera, Mendoza, Ledee, Soriano, Pettitte and a few minor others as the core of their team.

Jones1
07-25-2009, 04:01 PM
Why dont you just go ahead and start naming the stars from other teams and see how many you come up with.
Are you serious? How bout the Pirates?

40YrRedsFan
07-25-2009, 04:13 PM
It is time to put this season behind us and move forward. At this point, the only untouchables (IMO) should be Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, and Bailey.
Everyone else should be and hopefully will be gone. We are not going to win
in the near future with the current players, so clean house and try to build a team that will gel together in three years or so where you aren't hanging on to players beyond their prime (Harang, Hernandez, Hairston, Taveras, Nix, Gomes,
etc, etc.)