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View Full Version : Your Turn to Improve the Reds in Three Moves



Benihana
07-24-2009, 06:10 PM
OK, here's the drill. Since Walt won't do anything, it's your turn. You have three moves to improve the Reds, and by improve, I mean do whatever you would do if you were the GM to improve the future outlook. You can blow it up or go for it, you can target 2010 or 2100. But first, there are a few rules of the game:

1. You can only make 3 moves. A trade counts as 1 move. A FA signing counts as 1 move.
2. Castellini, Jocketty, and Dusty are in place. Don't waste one of your moves discussing them.
3. You cannot add more than $10MM per year to the current payroll.
4. You cannot add contracts that have more than $50MM total left on the deal.
5. You cannot trade for any of the prospects that BA listed as "Untouchable."
6. Try to be as realistic as possible in any proposed trades, assessing the counterparty's needs and motives as best you can. (For instance, you cannot ship $50MM to the Pirates, attempt to trade Brandon Phillips to the Phillies, etc.)


Fire away!

Raisor
07-24-2009, 06:19 PM
1. Release Willy Taveras.
2. Release JHj
3. Release Alex Gonzalez.

A 22 man roster without those guys (since I'm out of moves) is already better. It might mean that Cueto is playing SS, on days he isn't pitching, but hey...

Homer Bailey
07-24-2009, 06:25 PM
Fire Dusty Baker, hire him back, then fire him again.

dougdirt
07-24-2009, 06:54 PM
1. Release Willy Taveras, call up a bench guy. Making Dickerson the starting CF every day.
2. Trade Bronson Arroyo/Matt Maloney/B prospect for anyone.
3. Sign John Lackey in the offseason.

Initial thoughts without much thought put into them.

Marc D
07-24-2009, 07:06 PM
1. Release Willy Taveras.
2. Release JHj
3. Release Alex Gonzalez.

A 22 man roster without those guys (since I'm out of moves) is already better. It might mean that Cueto is playing SS, on days he isn't pitching, but hey...


Its just that easy. No new contracts come in, no talent goes out and the team is better.

Shocking that the FO can't grasp something so simple.

corkedbat
07-24-2009, 07:38 PM
Too bad about theJodketty & Baker conditions because that is where it has to start IMO.

1) I'd want anowner that wants to make money and knows the way to do that is to start from the ground up an lay a solid foundation - funding now toreap the benfits for years to come.

2) A GM who is agressive and creative. someone who will deal guys a year to early instead of two years too late. Someone who who won't look at WillyT and think he's found an answer to anything. Someone who will either go for it now or build strong for tomorrow - not tiptoe some half-***** tightrope that insures long stretches of mediocrity.

3) Bring in an equally young and agressive manager to implement the plan. Someone who can handle young guys well and stresses fundamental. I'd also identify the best available pitching and hitting coaches and not only put them in charge of the 25-man roster, but I'd have them involved with selection of minor league hitting and pitching philosophies throughout the system - to be implemented the first day they lace up their cleats in Rookie ball.

4. Would have been a new owner, but if he would take these steps, then Castellini coud stay. :evil:

My GM, manager, pitching and hitting coaches would come from winning, well-run organizations and would be decided on after consulting the best and brightest minds I could find in the game. Like many, I had hoped for a the best with Jocketty, but it is coming clear that he'd just more of the same on the Major League level. Mediocrity has become the corporate culture of the Reds. Until this culture changes, nothing much else will.

Ltlabner
07-24-2009, 07:56 PM
Burn down the stadium

Take bus ride to St. Louis

Steal the identities of the Cardinals players

Falls City Beer
07-24-2009, 08:00 PM
Production when searching for pitchers.
Potential when searching for bats.
And get Halladay.

Rojo
07-24-2009, 08:02 PM
Can I turn the clock back to last winter?

corkedbat
07-24-2009, 08:57 PM
nm

corkedbat
07-24-2009, 08:57 PM
Can I turn the clock back to last winter?

Sure, if its before the Taveras signing so steps can be taken. If you do turn it back, you will find me saying that Arroyo should not be dealt unless a pitcher of equal value could be added - I was soooo wrong. I just want a GM and manager that realizes it six months before I do and acts on it.

savafan
07-24-2009, 09:06 PM
I trade fringe talent to acquire Ian Snell, Clint Barmes and Brandon Morrow.

reds44
07-24-2009, 09:11 PM
1. Acquire Mark Derosa
2. Acquire Julio Lugo
3. Acquire Matt Holliday

Oh....another team already did that?

traderumor
07-24-2009, 09:37 PM
Same three moves I've had on the table since the 22-1 butt whooping

1. Send everyone with options to the minors
2. DFA everyone not named Joey Votto
3. Fire the GM and everyone under him

Rojo
07-24-2009, 09:52 PM
The Pads will move Adrian Gonazlez. I'd offer Alonso and a generous package of yougsters for Peavy, provided he's healthy.

By hook or by crook, I'd try to get Izturus from the Angels. They want pitching. I'd listen on Harang (but want more than Izturus for him). I'd want to give them Weathers and/or Rhodes.

See if I can buy low on Bad Vlad over the winter.

Nasty_Boy
07-24-2009, 09:52 PM
Release Taveras
Trade either Arroyo or Harang (which ever has most value)
Play your high profile minor leaguers or package and trade for a productive veteran (basically make a decision about who can play and who can't and trade guys while their value is high)

Rojo
07-24-2009, 09:55 PM
Boy, everyone just jumps at releasing people. It's less the people we got, more the people we don't got.

savafan
07-24-2009, 10:05 PM
You still have to pay Taveras if you release him. That move saves you no money. You're stuck with his contract, might as well utilize him as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. Just tell Dusty to stop writing his name on the lineup card.

Walt's most frustrating move was bidding against himself for Taveras when no one else wanted him. Could have had him on a minor league contract. I'll never understand this.

Kc61
07-24-2009, 10:16 PM
IMO everyone is way, way, way too focused on Taveras. He's actually been a good singles hitter lately, he just unfortunately doesn't walk. I wouldn't worry about Taveras, next year he can split centerfield with Stubbs or Dickerson, he can hit eighth, he can be on the bench, he is not the major problem IMO.

I don't have particular names.

1. Sign a cleanup hitter to bat between Votto and Bruce. Free agency. Let's say Holliday for the sake of listing a name. Trade off Arroyo or Harang to make up some of the financial difference. In the offseason they will be easier to trade, one year left on their deals. The Reds must have some attack in the middle of the lineup, the current configuration doesn't work.

2. Sign a solid starting pitcher to fill the gap left by Harang or Arroyo. A Randy Wolf caliber pitcher, someone to be a competent number 3.

3. Sign or trade for a shortstop who can get on base and field the position. Someone who can hit first or second in the order. I don't know who.

And continue to promote the best and the brightest from the minor leagues.

Raisor
07-24-2009, 10:35 PM
You still have to pay Taveras if you release him. That move saves you no money. You're stuck with his contract, might as well utilize him as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. Just tell Dusty to stop writing his name on the lineup card.



He has to be off the roster or Dusty WILL use him. There is no way Walt is going to tell Dusty to not play Willy. Just not going to happen.

RedsManRick
07-24-2009, 10:41 PM
1) Trade EE and prospects if necessary to Seattle for C Jeff Clement
2) Sign Adrian Beltre in free agency
3) Trade for a young near ML-ready SS who can field the position and get on base at a .340+ clip. Willing to trade just Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, and/or just about anybody in the system if the return is sufficient. Possible targets include Reid Brignac, Jason Donald, Brandon Wood and Ivan Dejesus -- all of whom are blocked in their organizations.

In 2010, CF gets manned by a Dickerson/Stubbs platoon unless one of them really steps up. LF gets manned by a platoon of Gomes and Heisey, Votto when/if Alonso is ready -- assuming he's not the one traded for the SS (though I'd be willing). The bullpen adds another young arm or two from the minors. Clement splits time with Hanigan to keep them both healthy. Taveras can be included in any dea, salary paid if necessary -- just get him off the roster.

The Beltre signing is the only real stretch, but none of the big market teams really needs a 3B, so I think it's a legit option. He'd probably require something in the 4/40 ballpark -- given his defense and the substantial offensive boost from moving from Safeco to GABP, I think he'd be a 3 win player easy.

So that's my plan. Of course, you could just do what I did in MLB 09: The Show. Trade Arroyo and Gonzalez for Elvis Andrus. Trade Harang, EE, and Frazier for Halladay. Sign Matt Holliday and Adrian Belre in FA. Problems solved. Of course, for some reason it said I could afford a $118 payroll too...

LoganBuck
07-24-2009, 11:33 PM
1. Get ML ready young shortstop that can hit and field! Now I know some of you don't really believe in Bigfoot, but I can assure you that you can get shortstops that can hit and field.

Trade Arroyo, Weathers, and cash to Angels for Brandon Wood
Gonzalez DFA.

2. DFA Taveras, play any of the in house options.

3. Sign Aroldis Chapman

TheNext44
07-25-2009, 12:51 AM
The problem with the Reds right now, is that there really is not enough organizational depth to make trades that will help the team significantly.

To get a RH cleanup hitter, or a genuine starting SS, or a solid starting pitcher, the Reds would have to give up something that would weaken them somewhere else, or blow up the payroll, taking away payroll flex.

Sure the Reds could make a move or three to put themselves back in the race, but only at the cost of hurting if not gutting their farm system and/or their starting rotation. That would make things difficult in 2010 and beyond, because the team just doesn't have the depth to suffer that.

So realistically, there is very little that the Reds can do at this point, that won't haunt them in the future. I would rather just make moves, big or small, that improve the depth of the organization, so that next year, or whenever the next time that the Reds are in contention is, they can make the bold moves needed to put themselves over the top.

That said, here's what I would do, trying to stick to that philosophy:

Trade Arroyo and Rhodes to Yankees for Zach McAllister, rhp and Alfredo Aceves rhp.
Aceves is having a great rookie year in the pen and McAllister projects to being an solid #3 starter who can eat innings.

Sign John Lackey
He's having an off year, due to an injury, but he looks to be healthy and pitching well.

Sign Chone Figgins
This would involve getting rid of EE somehow, but I only have three moves. He's one of the most underrated players in the game. Not much power, but great at getting on base, and great glove. Using WAR, he's been about a 3 win player a year over the last three seasons. I only hope the Reds can afford him.
Everyone is so focused on getting a SS, and I understand why. But the Reds need a real 3B just as badly. Getting one like Figgens is cheaper and easier.

This team still needs a SS and a cleanup hitter, but it would be a better team than this years, and without breaking the bank or giving up anyone that can't be replaced. If it can stay around .500 next year, the Reds should have more ammo to get that cleanup hitter or SS at the deadline.

Cedric
07-25-2009, 12:53 AM
1.Fire Walt Jocketty.
2. Hire myself.
3. Allow me to hire Davey Johnson.

Homer Bailey
07-25-2009, 05:39 AM
Haven't read this thread cuz I'm so discouraged by this org. But here are my simple moves.

1. Sign Matt Holliday. If it takes 5 yrs/ $75M I spend it. Otherwise, the Reds are just going to sit on that money like they currently do with their profit.

2. Trade for Yunel Escobar. If it takes Alonso, you do it. This lineup is best in the NL central in 2010:

Dickerson 8
Escobar 6
Votto 3
Holliday 7
Bruce 9
Phillips 4
EE 5
Hanigan 2

3. John Lackey


These moves involve adding salary. It also means you don't add stupid salary like LIncoln, Hairston, WT. In the long term, if you avoid stupid stuff like this, these moves all seem very affordable.

nate
07-25-2009, 10:09 AM
1. Invent time machine
2. Find fountain of youth
3. Go back in time/serve fountain of youth Martinis to the best 25 former Reds by position. Leave coaching staff, even Dusty couldn't mess up with those players.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 10:13 AM
1. Invent time machine
.

One of my 88 nobel prizes was for the time machine I invented.

Only problem was I went back and time and changed history so that I didn't end up inventing the thing causing the original universe to implode.

Sorry about that, because in that universe the Reds had made the playoffs for 15 straight years, and I'm the only one that remembers it.

Darn it.

Kc61
07-25-2009, 10:17 AM
The problem with the Reds right now, is that there really is not enough organizational depth to make trades that will help the team significantly.

To get a RH cleanup hitter, or a genuine starting SS, or a solid starting pitcher, the Reds would have to give up something that would weaken them somewhere else, or blow up the payroll, taking away payroll flex.

.

They can trade Yonder Alonso who has no position on this team. They can trade Todd Frazier who hasn't played a premium position in the higher minor leagues. They can trade Travis Wood who is at peak value right now but isn't a sureshot in the majors. They can trade Josh Roenicke who should be in the major leagues and has great stuff. They can trade Francisco or Soto, flawed but potentially dangerous bats. They can trade Chris Dickerson or Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey, they don't need all of them. They can trade Harang or Arroyo who have only one year left on their deals after 2009. In exchange for a high level pitcher, they can include Zach Stewart, the Reds' own best pitching prospect. They can trade EE and improve the team by acquiring a better bat in return for a package.

I don't see any of these guys as essential to the Reds' future if they get a real good player in return. And, if necessary, they can trade Cordero which would weaken the bullpen, but there are potential younger replacements.

It all comes down to the willingness to spend money. Period. The whole premise of keeping all these kids is that the Reds can't afford to build any other way.

There is plenty to trade. The problem is that the good veterans demand a good wage.

Jpup
07-25-2009, 11:19 AM
1) Trade EE and prospects if necessary to Seattle for C Jeff Clement
2) Sign Adrian Beltre in free agency
3) Trade for a young near ML-ready SS who can field the position and get on base at a .340+ clip. Willing to trade just Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, and/or just about anybody in the system if the return is sufficient. Possible targets include Reid Brignac, Jason Donald, Brandon Wood and Ivan Dejesus -- all of whom are blocked in their organizations.

In 2010, CF gets manned by a Dickerson/Stubbs platoon unless one of them really steps up. LF gets manned by a platoon of Gomes and Heisey, Votto when/if Alonso is ready -- assuming he's not the one traded for the SS (though I'd be willing). The bullpen adds another young arm or two from the minors. Clement splits time with Hanigan to keep them both healthy. Taveras can be included in any dea, salary paid if necessary -- just get him off the roster.

The Beltre signing is the only real stretch, but none of the big market teams really needs a 3B, so I think it's a legit option. He'd probably require something in the 4/40 ballpark -- given his defense and the substantial offensive boost from moving from Safeco to GABP, I think he'd be a 3 win player easy.

So that's my plan. Of course, you could just do what I did in MLB 09: The Show. Trade Arroyo and Gonzalez for Elvis Andrus. Trade Harang, EE, and Frazier for Halladay. Sign Matt Holliday and Adrian Belre in FA. Problems solved. Of course, for some reason it said I could afford a $118 payroll too...

The Red Sox are going to need a 3rd baseman this winter, if not now.

LINEDRIVER
07-25-2009, 02:35 PM
1) Fire Dusty Baker

2) Fire Brook Jacoby

3) Make Encarnacion the batboy

Degenerate39
07-25-2009, 04:34 PM
1. Fire the whole coaching staff.
2. Trade Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, Phillips for any minor league talent possible.
3. Sign Jason Bay in the offseason

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 04:40 PM
Boy, everyone just jumps at releasing people. It's less the people we got, more the people we don't got.

This is of course 100% correct.

VR
07-25-2009, 04:47 PM
Hire a pitching coach that can capitalize on the individual talent of every player under their watch, evaluate a scouting report and use those talents to gain a competitive advantage on the opponent, and know when to move them for younger, more talented players.

Hire a batting coach that can get the maximum out each hitter, based on capitalizing on their strengths, learning what a strike zone is, and positioning them for maiximum performance by being able to use a scouting report to their own hitters benefit against all opponents.


Hire a bonafide scouting department that is able to deliver intelligence to the team that can be used against each opponent.


In other words, become the St. Louis Cardinals.

Kc61
07-25-2009, 05:01 PM
I hope the Reds appreciate how much of a difference a few key moves can make.

Remember how the Cordero acquisition dramatically fixed the pen?

Sometimes one or two moves fix multiple problems.

If the Reds got a shortstop who gets on base and a cleanup hitter, they are a dramatically different team.

The shortstop and Phillips could hit one-two. The middle of the order has punch with Votto and the new guy. Then Bruce and EE fifth and sixth, with not too much pressure on them. Then the catcher and CF can hit at the bottom. Even a Hernandez/Hanigan duo at seventh and a Dickerson/Taveras/Stubbs combo at eighth.

This dramatically transforms this lineup. And I expect that with more run support the pitching holds up better. Ok, the third change is to pick up a solid starter, something like the Freddy Norman move of years ago. Someone to provide some veteran glue, particularly if Harang or Arroyo go.

The "three move" thread is good because with three real good moves this is a competitive team. It doesn't require ten more years of developing the kids in the GCL. Just get two or three real ballplayers in key spots.

*BaseClogger*
07-25-2009, 05:29 PM
1. DFA Willy Taveras. No one will claim him, so we should be able to sneak him through to AAA. See how he responds. Make Chris Dickerson the starting CF. Call up Drew Stubbs to platoon with him.

2. Trade the vets: David Weathers to LA Dodgers for warm body, Jerry Hairston to CH White Sox for warm body, Arthur Rhodes to NY Yankees for decent prospect, Jonny Gomes to SF Giants for decent prospect. Ramon Hernandez to DT Tigers for warm body, Alex Gonzalez to MN Twins for warm body before the waiver deadline. Promote Josh Roenicke and Drew Sutton.

3. Trade the young pups: Chris Heisey and Matt Maloney to LA Angels for Maicer Izturis and Reggie Willits, Danny Dorn and Byron Wiley to PT Pirates for John Grabow and Ian Snell.

C Ryan Hanigan
C Craig Tatum
1B Joey Votto
2B Brandon Phillips
SS Maicer Izturis
3B Edwin Encarnacion
IF Paul Janish
IF Drew Sutton
LF Drew Stubbs
CF Chris Dickerson
RF Laynce Nix
OF Reggie Willits
UT Adam Rosales

SP Aaron Harang
SP Johnny Cueto
SP Edinson Volquez
SP Bronson Arroyo
SP Micah Owings
SP Homer Bailey

MR Josh Roenicke
MR Carlos Fisher
MR Dany Herrera
SU Nick Massett
SU John Grabow
CL Francisco Cordero

I use a six-man rotation and that is my roster at the end of the season...

TheNext44
07-25-2009, 05:45 PM
They can trade Yonder Alonso who has no position on this team. They can trade Todd Frazier who hasn't played a premium position in the higher minor leagues. They can trade Travis Wood who is at peak value right now but isn't a sureshot in the majors. They can trade Josh Roenicke who should be in the major leagues and has great stuff. They can trade Francisco or Soto, flawed but potentially dangerous bats. They can trade Chris Dickerson or Drew Stubbs or Chris Heisey, they don't need all of them. They can trade Harang or Arroyo who have only one year left on their deals after 2009. In exchange for a high level pitcher, they can include Zach Stewart, the Reds' own best pitching prospect. They can trade EE and improve the team by acquiring a better bat in return for a package.

I don't see any of these guys as essential to the Reds' future if they get a real good player in return. And, if necessary, they can trade Cordero which would weaken the bullpen, but there are potential younger replacements.

It all comes down to the willingness to spend money. Period. The whole premise of keeping all these kids is that the Reds can't afford to build any other way.

There is plenty to trade. The problem is that the good veterans demand a good wage.

All good points. You are right, Alonso is a solid trading chip, and if he can get a young starting SS, that would make the biggest difference for the Reds for all the reasons you stated.

The only issue is that the Reds would not have a top prospect anymore, a solid B+, maybe A prospect. So that means, that if the Reds do contend next year, they would only be able to pick up small parts, since they would have no trading chips left.
The other guys you mentioned are nice prospects, but none of them, and no combination of them will bring in anyone who will make a real difference. You probably could get a DeRosa, or a Betancourt, but not a Holliday or Halladay.
And this would be true for a few years, as the Reds really don't have any top prospects in the system, which means you would have to draft them next year, and wait a year to be able to trade them.

But if the SS or whoever you get for Alonso is good enough, that might not be a problem.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 05:48 PM
1. DFA Willy Taveras. No one will claim him, so we should be able to sneak him through to AAA. See how he responds. Make Chris Dickerson the starting CF. Call up Drew Stubbs to platoon with him.

2. Trade the vets: David Weathers to LA Dodgers for warm body, Jerry Hairston to CH White Sox for warm body, Arthur Rhodes to NY Yankees for decent prospect, Jonny Gomes to SF Giants for decent prospect. Ramon Hernandez to DT Tigers for warm body, Alex Gonzalez to MN Twins for warm body before the waiver deadline. Promote Josh Roenicke and Drew Sutton.

3. Trade the young pups: Chris Heisey and Matt Maloney to LA Angels for Maicer Izturis and Reggie Willits, Danny Dorn and Byron Wiley to PT Pirates for John Grabow and Ian Snell.

C Ryan Hanigan
C Craig Tatum
1B Joey Votto
2B Brandon Phillips
SS Maicer Izturis
3B Edwin Encarnacion
IF Paul Janish
IF Drew Sutton
LF Drew Stubbs
CF Chris Dickerson
RF Laynce Nix
OF Reggie Willits
UT Adam Rosales

SP Aaron Harang
SP Johnny Cueto
SP Edinson Volquez
SP Bronson Arroyo
SP Micah Owings
SP Homer Bailey

MR Josh Roenicke
MR Carlos Fisher
MR Dany Herrera
SU Nick Massett
SU John Grabow
CL Francisco Cordero

I use a six-man rotation and that is my roster at the end of the season...

Since your moves focus on eliminating players, why on earth would you not move Arroyo?

*BaseClogger*
07-25-2009, 06:23 PM
Since your moves focus on eliminating players, why on earth would you not move Arroyo?

I was being realistic; I don't think he is tradeable and I think he is more valueable to the Reds...

mth123
07-25-2009, 08:40 PM
I don't think three is enough. Probably need three now to position the team for the winter meetings and three then to acquire the needed talent. I'll focus on now.

1. Deal Willy to the White Sox for a low A suspect (clears $4 Million from next year).
2. Deal Cordero to the Dodgers for Ivan Dejesus and Xavier Paul (Clears $12 Million from 2010).
3. Deal Arroyo, Weathers and Hairston to the Giants for Merkin Valdez, Manny Burris and Tim Alderson (Clears $11 to $13 Million from 2010).

With nearly $30 Million off the books, added prospects for the mix and Valdez in the pen, the team can shop free agency and trade prospects from positions of redundancy for core type players.

Deal from:

CF (Trade one) Dickerson, Stubbs and Heisey.
Offense First Supersubs (Trade one or all three if necessary) - Frazier, Valaika, Sutton
Back-end or swingman arms (Trade two) - Maloney, Ramirez, Lecure, Owings
Mid-to-late inning relievers (Trade one or two if necessary) - Roenicke, Fisher, Massett, Valdez, Bray, Manuel, Viola, Burton
SS with Questions (May need to keep them all for now) - Dejesus, Burris, Cozart
Free Swinging 3B with pop and questions on D (Trade One) - Francisco, Soto

Core Players: Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Bruce, Phillips

Other keepers: Alonso, Wood, Stewart, Alderson

corkedbat
07-25-2009, 10:46 PM
1) If I'm GM, the first thing I do is make out a roster for the 2011 season using my best projections and guys in the system now.

1B Alfonso
2B Phillips/Valaika
SS Cozart/Janish
3B Frazier/Francisco
LF Votto
CF Stubbs/Dickerson
RF Bruce/Heisey
CA Hanigan/(Tatum/Kroski)

S1 Cueto
S2 Volquez
S3 Wood
S4 Stewart
S5 Leake
LR Owings
LH Herrera
LH (Bray/Maloney)
LH Viola
RH (Roenicke/Fisher)
RH (Burton/Bailey)
RH Massett

2) I identify the most critical (amd toughest to acquire) needs. You can always find MI backups, a backup catcher, a reliever or two and even a backend starter on a year-to-year basis among journeymen FAs. That leaves me with three main needs to focus on, IMO.

a) a TOR starter
b) a big bat for the middle of the order (3B or more likely - LF)
c) an young all-around upgrade at SS
d) another young closing prospect (optional)

I go about getting them by using any names currently in the system other than those on the list above. Not that there are many, if any, untouchables, I just have to figure-in replacing the spots of those I use.

3) I get my best organizational minds together and make a list of the 10-20 best fits across MLB that are conceivably available and I do everything in my power to make it happen. I take the savings from moving contracts of higher-priced vets like Harang, Arroyo and Cordero and earmark them to ward the Starter and the Big Bat.

I try to get one by trade and one from free Agency and one by dealing. I dal for the SS.

I resist the urge to deal for any mid-season rentals or short term fill-ins. A Ron Halladay or a Scott Rolen is great, but only if I feel they're gonna be here 2 or 3 years from now. Otherwise, it's a waste of resources, IMO.

HokieRed
07-25-2009, 11:59 PM
1. I resolve to outlive the ridiculous contracts given out to Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero (not to mention Gonzalez) given out by previous management.
2. I resolve further not to be persuaded or to try to persuade myself that a non-contender is really a contender if it just has one more bat.
3. I talk enough stuff and make a couple essentially meaningless cosmetic additions to make it look like I'm doing something.
4. I protect at all costs the few players in my system who are likely desired by other teams because they recognize these people will contribute to their--much better than my own--team. This list begins with Alonso and includes, but with less certaintly, Frazier, Stewart, and possibly Wood. Y. Rodriguez is rapidly earning his place on this list.
In other words, I do about what Walt Jocketty has been doing. I don't make a point of it but I act from the conviction that the team's really a lot worse than most people would like to believe and, despite the fans' earned impatience, will take a good bit of time to fix.

Chip R
07-26-2009, 12:02 AM
1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit

mth123
07-26-2009, 12:08 AM
1. I resolve to outlive the ridiculous contracts given out to Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero (not to mention Gonzalez) given out by previous management.
2. I resolve further not to be persuaded or to try to persuade myself that a non-contender is really a contender if it just has one more bat.
3. I talk enough stuff and make a couple essentially meaningless cosmetic additions to make it look like I'm doing something.
4. I protect at all costs the few players in my system who are likely desired by other teams because they recognize these people will contribute to their--much better than my own--team. This list begins with Alonso and includes, but with less certaintly, Frazier, Stewart, and possibly Wood. Y. Rodriguez is rapidly earning his place on this list.
In other words, I do about what Walt Jocketty has been doing. I don't make a point of it but I act from the conviction that the team's really a lot worse than most people would like to believe and, despite the fans' earned impatience, will take a good bit of time to fix.

I agree with most of it. I just don't think its what Walt has been doing nor is it the job assigned to him. He was hired to win now. The owner said as much when the hiring was announced. He's either not doing his job (trying to win now) or he's really rotten at it. I think he signed guys like Willy and Hairston with expectation that they were additions that would help this team win.

I think he's lost his mind.

*BaseClogger*
07-26-2009, 12:53 AM
1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit

http://www.gardengnomefromhell.com/images/new_pa4.jpg

Will M
07-26-2009, 01:10 AM
I don't think three is enough. Probably need three now to position the team for the winter meetings and three then to acquire the needed talent. I'll focus on now.

1. Deal Willy to the White Sox for a low A suspect (clears $4 Million from next year).
2. Deal Cordero to the Dodgers for Ivan Dejesus and Xavier Paul (Clears $12 Million from 2010).
3. Deal Arroyo, Weathers and Hairston to the Giants for Merkin Valdez, Manny Burris and Tim Alderson (Clears $11 to $13 Million from 2010).

With nearly $30 Million off the books, added prospects for the mix and Valdez in the pen, the team can shop free agency and trade prospects from positions of redundancy for core type players.

Deal from:

CF (Trade one) Dickerson, Stubbs and Heisey.
Offense First Supersubs (Trade one or all three if necessary) - Frazier, Valaika, Sutton
Back-end or swingman arms (Trade two) - Maloney, Ramirez, Lecure, Owings
Mid-to-late inning relievers (Trade one or two if necessary) - Roenicke, Fisher, Massett, Valdez, Bray, Manuel, Viola, Burton
SS with Questions (May need to keep them all for now) - Dejesus, Burris, Cozart
Free Swinging 3B with pop and questions on D (Trade One) - Francisco, Soto

Core Players: Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Bruce, Phillips

Other keepers: Alonso, Wood, Stewart, Alderson


Nice plan.

IMO the best thing Walt could do now is move Arroyo & Cordero's contracts off the books. Then the key this offseason is dealing the glut of secondary prospects we have to field a quality team this offseason.

What could be pencilled in for 2010 after a trade deadline sell off?
1B Votto
2B Phillips
RF Bruce
CF Dickerson plus either Heisey or Stubbs
C Hanigan
SP Cueto, Volquez, Harang along with the suspects (Owings, Bailey) & Stewart and Wood on their heels.
RP Rhodes, Masset, Herrera, Roenicke, Fisher & Burton.

What would this team need to win? Another quality SP, SS, 3B & LF.
With the payroll room available and the glut of decent to good prospects we have this could be accomplished in the offseason.

Unfortunately it would take creativity which the Reds seem to lack.

HokieRed
07-26-2009, 01:10 AM
mth,
I think it is what Walt's been doing (of course this is just an inference from what I see and what I know of his record in St.L.) He has an owner who wants to win now and a team that had no chance to win in 2009 b/c it had neither the rotation nor the offense to do so. The team has a slight chance in 2010 if several things break right and no really bad moves are made in order to feed the owner and fans' illusory hopes of contending in 2009. By 2011 it could be a serious team but only if crippling moves are avoided (like tying up way too much payroll in players like Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, Gonzalez). So far Walt has avoided those really bad moves. Taveras' acquisition was a mistake but it only lasts through next year; Hairston would have been perfectly useful as a utility guy and he's gone after this year. I don't see these as long-term mistakes that will hurt when the team has a chance to be good (i.e. when Cueto, Volquez, and hopefully Bailey have become consistent starters). Doing something like trading Alonso would be, IMHO, such a mistake.

HokieRed
07-26-2009, 01:14 AM
If Walt Jocketty can move two of Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero's contracts off the books, he will qualify, IMHO, as an unequalled baseball genius.

WVRedsFan
07-26-2009, 02:00 AM
If Walt Jocketty can move two of Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero's contracts off the books, he will qualify, IMHO, as an unequalled baseball genius.

Agreed. But, if he can move one of them for something of value, he'll earn my respect. He'll earn it even more if he moves Hairston, Taveras, and Gonzalez to Washington for a bucket of balls and a pound of roast beef.

corkedbat
07-26-2009, 02:09 AM
I might have to amend my 2011 lineup projection to include Yorman Rodriguez in CF. LOLOL

GAC
07-26-2009, 07:14 AM
The most important and critical move we can't make.... Firing Baker. After all, the objective is to IMPROVE this team right? That would go a long way IMO. ;)

It's very easy, on a forum, to say "make a trade"; but one also has to have a willing trade partner who WANTS said player(s) and may have somthing in return. But I'll play along....

This season is a wash. Think 2010 and beyond.

Dump Arroyo and Harang by the trading deadline. If I could get something out of them then fine; but the main objective is free up payroll. I'll take prospects.

Sign Halladay long term.

I guess that's my 3 moves.

Do we get 3 more in the off-season? If so....

Release Taveras.
Release Nix
Trade for Matt Kemp

kpresidente
07-26-2009, 09:27 AM
1. Dump Arroyo
2. Sign Hudson and move Phillips to SS
3. Sign Beltre and move EE to LF

Will M
08-12-2009, 01:38 PM
For the Reds to truly win in 2010 it will involve adding more than $10M to the payroll. Below is a playoff caliber team...

1. sign Johnny Damon for LF. still has some speed. 20 HR power. good leadoff man. he is 35 years old but is still playing well. i don't know what it would take to get him. likely a 2 year deal
2. sign Mark DeRosa for 2B. (BP moves to SS)
3. go 'all in' on John Lackey. do whatever it takes to get him

1B Votto (L)
2B DeRosa (Frazier plays 2B in AAA to start 2010)
SS Phillips
3B Rolen
RF Bruce (L)
CF Dickerson (L) splitting time with Heisey or Stubbs
LF Damon (L)
C Hanigan

Bench:
C some decent backup catcher via trade
OF Gomes or Balentien
OF Heisey or Stubbs
IF 2 of Sutton, Rosales, Janish, etc. Frazier may push his way into the 2B job making DeRosa the #1 bench guy.

SP Lackey
SP Cueto
SP Harang
SP Arroyo
SP Bailey
DL Volquez. if he recovers well he will be on pitch & innings limits for 2010
AAA Maloney, Wood (L)

RP Cordero
RP Rhodes (L)
RP Masset
RP Herrara
RP Fisher
RP 2 of Viola (L), Burton, Owings, cheap free agent vet

TheNext44
08-12-2009, 03:45 PM
Here is my general philosophy on building a mid market team:

The team should be built just good enough to compete, if it has a normal amount of luck. It does not need to be built to dominate (leave that to the big market teams) and it does not need to be built to withstand a wave of bad luck. If it has bad luck in any one year, simply accept it and move on to the next year. A mid market team can not be built deep enough to withstand a rash of bad luck. Again, that is a luxury for large market teams.

If the team has a decent amount of luck, then at mid season, it should have he resources and payflex to get the players needed to get it over the top. This is when a team should "go for it." not at the beginning of the season. (see luck factor to understand why).

Here are the three moves I would make following the above philosophy:

1) Sign Johnny Damon. Probably a 1-2 year deal for around $5M a year should do it. As WillM stated, good leadoff man with decent power and speed. Not great defensively, but smart enough to not hurt you that much. And smaller, speedier guys tend to have longer careers, so age is less of a risk. With the addition of Rolen, the need for a big bat in LF is greatly decreased.

2) Trade for JJ Hardy. It would be great if the Reds could move Phillips to SS and use Frazier or someone cheap at 2B. Not sure that will happen, not as sure as I was last season, but I'm not counting on it.
Assuming that doesn't happen, JJ Hardy is the a perfect fit for the Reds. The Brewers don't need him, and he would give the Reds one of the best defensive infields in the game. And he should provide close to a league average bat.
He's a free agent after the season, but Cozart should be ready then, if he is the answer.
Not sure what it takes to get him here. The Brewers most likely will wait until the off-season to trade him. Makes no sense now, his value is too low. I am not sure the Reds could outbid the Red Sox for him, and not sure they should, since he is just for one year.

3) Sign Jason LaRue to split time with Hanigan.

Those three moves add around $10M to the payroll, meaning the Reds don't have to shed salary to get them. They still can, but don't have to. And I think that gets the Reds to a point where they can compete if healthy, and then make a bigger move if they are still in it at the trading deadline.

Benihana
08-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Alas it's finally my turn:

1. Trade Bronson Arroyo and Drew Stubbs for JJ Hardy

2. Trade Todd Frazier, Johnny Gomes, Juan Francisco, Devin Mesoraco and any AAA pitcher not named Wood for Brandon Webb and Chris Snyder

3. Spend $20 MM to sign P Doug Davis and Brett Myers to two-year contracts. Divide it up whatever way necessary, but I think that could get it done for both of them. Make Myers' deal more incentive-heavy.

The rationale behind the Arroyo-Hardy trade has been laid out in all the other threads. I'd add Drew Stubbs to the deal so that no money changes hands, and after all is said and done the Reds would save ~$8MM on the deal.

Trade Frazier (who appears to have no position in Cincy), Gomes (who is made expendable by Balentien), Francisco (sell high especially if he can't handle 3B), Mesoraco (to help restock AZ's catching depth in the minors) and an AAA pitcher (Maloney, LeCure, etc.) for Webb and Snyder. This assumes that AZ picks up Webb's option but trades him so that they save on his buyout (very possible.) The $8MM saved on the Arroyo deal pays for Webb and Snyder in 2010. Snyder has been deemed expendable with the emergence of Montero, and would provide a nice complement for Hanigan in case his offense continues to tank. Webb rehabs for the first half of the season, and hopefully enjoys being home enough and appreciates the rehab effort that he agrees to take a hometown discount on an extension once he's healthy. Meanwhile, Webb and Volquez could provide an ENORMOUS boost to your 2nd half rotation. We don't need the 3B prospects in the upper minors if they are planning on Rolen being around for the next couple years. Plus, we'd be selling high on Francisco and Mesoraco, the latter which clears the way for guys like Coddington, Fleury, and Weems in the system.

Davis would be a great #3 starter, and between Myers, Bailey, and Owings- two of them could be the 4 and 5 starters and one of them could make a great bullpen arm.

CF Dickerson/Heisey
SS Hardy
1B Votto
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
2B Phillips
LF Balentien
C Hanigan/Snyder

FIRST HALF ROTATION
SP1 Cueto
SP2 Harang
SP3 Davis
SP4 Myers/Bailey/Owings
SP5 Myers/Bailey/Owings

SECOND HALF ROTATION
SP1 Cueto
SP2 Webb
SP3 Harang
SP4 Davis
SP5 Volquez

IF Webb and Volquez both make it back for the 2nd half, Myers, Bailey, and Owings are all headed to the bullpen or trade bait- unless Bailey breaks out, in which case Davis/Harang are trade bait. If Webb and/or Volquez cannot return to form for the 2nd half or suffer a setback in rehab, this pitching depth provides a cushion.

Keep Nix (or promote Dorn) as the 4th OF/LH pinch hitter. Keep Willy T (we might as well) as the pinch runner/defensive replacement in the OF. Hanigan and Snyder complement each other, and have an infield bench of three from Rosales/Sutton/Valaika/Janish. Owings is (almost) always the first RH pinch hitter off the bench, and he can frequently remain in the game as a middle reliever. Not the best bench, but certainly a cheap one.

Only $10 MM added to the payroll. You still have Yonder, Yorman, Cozart, Soto, Wood and Leake in the system. With Harang coming off the books after 2010 and Cordero's NTC becoming limited, you have some room to re-sign Webb and Rolen, especially if they are willing to take hometown discounts. Plus the two could be local faces of the franchise.

hippie07
08-12-2009, 04:51 PM
Alas it's finally my turn:

1. Trade Bronson Arroyo and Drew Stubbs for JJ Hardy

2. Trade Todd Frazier, Johnny Gomes, Juan Francisco, Devin Mesoraco and any AAA pitcher not named Wood for Brandon Webb and Chris Snyder

3. Spend $20 MM to sign P Doug Davis and Brett Myers to two-year contracts. Divide it up whatever way necessary, but I think that could get it done for both of them. Make Myers' deal more incentive-heavy.

The rationale behind the Arroyo-Hardy trade has been laid out in all the other threads. I'd add Drew Stubbs to the deal so that no money changes hands, and after all is said and done the Reds would save ~$8MM on the deal.

Trade Frazier (who appears to have no position in Cincy), Gomes (who is made expendable by Balentien), Francisco (sell high especially if he can't handle 3B), Mesoraco (to help restock AZ's catching depth in the minors) and an AAA pitcher (Maloney, LeCure, etc.) for Webb and Snyder. This assumes that AZ picks up Webb's option but trades him so that they save on his buyout (very possible.) The $8MM saved on the Arroyo deal pays for Webb and Snyder in 2010. Snyder has been deemed expendable with the emergence of Montero, and would provide a nice complement for Hanigan in case his offense continues to tank. Webb rehabs for the first half of the season, and hopefully enjoys being home enough and appreciates the rehab effort that he agrees to take a hometown discount on an extension once he's healthy. Meanwhile, Webb and Volquez could provide an ENORMOUS boost to your 2nd half rotation. We don't need the 3B prospects in the upper minors if they are planning on Rolen being around for the next couple years. Plus, we'd be selling high on Francisco and Mesoraco, the latter which clears the way for guys like Coddington, Fleury, and Weems in the system.

Davis would be a great #3 starter, and between Myers, Bailey, and Owings- two of them could be the 4 and 5 starters and one of them could make a great bullpen arm.

CF Dickerson/Heisey
SS Hardy
1B Votto
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
2B Phillips
LF Balentien
C Hanigan/Snyder

FIRST HALF ROTATION
SP1 Cueto
SP2 Harang
SP3 Davis
SP4 Myers/Bailey/Owings
SP5 Myers/Bailey/Owings

SECOND HALF ROTATION
SP1 Cueto
SP2 Webb
SP3 Harang
SP4 Davis
SP5 Volquez

IF Webb and Volquez both make it back for the 2nd half, Myers, Bailey, and Owings are all headed to the bullpen or trade bait- unless Bailey breaks out, in which case Davis/Harang are trade bait. If Webb and/or Volquez cannot return to form for the 2nd half or suffer a setback in rehab, this pitching depth provides a cushion.

Keep Nix (or promote Dorn) as the 4th OF/LH pinch hitter. Keep Willy T (we might as well) as the pinch runner/defensive replacement in the OF. Hanigan and Snyder complement each other, and have an infield bench of three from Rosales/Sutton/Valaika/Janish. Owings is (almost) always the first RH pinch hitter off the bench, and he can frequently remain in the game as a middle reliever. Not the best bench, but certainly a cheap one.

Only $10 MM added to the payroll. You still have Yonder, Yorman, Cozart, Wood and Leake in the system. With Harang coming off the books after 2010 and Cordero's NTC becoming limited, you have some room to re-sign Webb and Rolen, especially if they are willing to take hometown discounts. Plus the two could be local faces of the franchise.

This makes entirely too much sense to happen

Eric_the_Red
08-12-2009, 04:54 PM
2. Trade Todd Frazier, Johnny Gomes, Juan Francisco, Devin Mesoraco and any AAA pitcher not named Wood for Brandon Webb and Chris Snyder



I can't see why AZ would make this deal. This proposal illustrates how fans tend to overrate their organization's "prospects".

Benihana
08-12-2009, 05:02 PM
I can't see why AZ would make this deal. This proposal illustrates how fans tend to overrate their organization's "prospects".

From most reports, cash-strapped Arizona has little interest in an injured Brandon Webb next year at $8MM. But they don't want to pay his $2MM buy-out either. So the logical thing for them to do would be to pick up his option and trade him to a team patient enough to pay him $8MM while he rehabs. That's a risk I'm looking to take if I'm the Reds, especially since Webb is from the area.

I'm not disillusioned into thinking anyone I named in the AZ deal other than Frazier is a top prospect. Francisco has some value, and the others are mainly throw-ins. But none of them cost any money, and they each have enough upside to restock the Arizona system with some depth. Plus Arizona gets to save $2MM in the process. I'd happily upgrade the package if I had any degree of confidence in Webb recovering for next year and/or agreeing to a hometown discounted extension.

PuffyPig
08-12-2009, 05:11 PM
I can't see why AZ would make this deal. This proposal illustrates how fans tend to overrate their organization's "prospects".

Since they aren't going to pick up Webb's option, he's got zero value to them.

I doubt Webb will give much to anyone in 2010. I certainly don't want to trade 5 prospects for him and them lose him as a FA after the season.

Kc61
08-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Here is my general philosophy on building a mid market team:

The team should be built just good enough to compete, if it has a normal amount of luck. It does not need to be built to dominate (leave that to the big market teams) and it does not need to be built to withstand a wave of bad luck. If it has bad luck in any one year, simply accept it and move on to the next year. A mid market team can not be built deep enough to withstand a rash of bad luck. Again, that is a luxury for large market teams.

If the team has a decent amount of luck, then at mid season, it should have he resources and payflex to get the players needed to get it over the top. This is when a team should "go for it." not at the beginning of the season. (see luck factor to understand why).

Here are the three moves I would make following the above philosophy:

1) Sign Johnny Damon. Probably a 1-2 year deal for around $5M a year should do it. As WillM stated, good leadoff man with decent power and speed. Not great defensively, but smart enough to not hurt you that much. And smaller, speedier guys tend to have longer careers, so age is less of a risk. With the addition of Rolen, the need for a big bat in LF is greatly decreased.

2) Trade for JJ Hardy. It would be great if the Reds could move Phillips to SS and use Frazier or someone cheap at 2B. Not sure that will happen, not as sure as I was last season, but I'm not counting on it.
Assuming that doesn't happen, JJ Hardy is the a perfect fit for the Reds. The Brewers don't need him, and he would give the Reds one of the best defensive infields in the game. And he should provide close to a league average bat.
He's a free agent after the season, but Cozart should be ready then, if he is the answer.
Not sure what it takes to get him here. The Brewers most likely will wait until the off-season to trade him. Makes no sense now, his value is too low. I am not sure the Reds could outbid the Red Sox for him, and not sure they should, since he is just for one year.

3) Sign Jason LaRue to split time with Hanigan.

Those three moves add around $10M to the payroll, meaning the Reds don't have to shed salary to get them. They still can, but don't have to. And I think that gets the Reds to a point where they can compete if healthy, and then make a bigger move if they are still in it at the trading deadline.

Not Larue again. Please. I can't watch him swing through those low outside sliders anymore.

Maybe a lefty hitting catcher. Hanigan needs a strong partner, he seems to have worn down over the season IMO.

I think the three moves depend in part on whether they trade off a big contract. Like Arroyo. If so, it's one set of moves. If not, it's another.

Benihana
08-12-2009, 05:22 PM
I doubt Webb will give much to anyone in 2010. I certainly don't want to trade 5 prospects for him and them lose him as a FA after the season.

It's a gamble, sure, but those are the kind of gambles you need to take in order to get a proven ace on a small market team. The only significant prospect you would be giving up would be Frazier, as the others are all very expendable. Plus, if they are planning on keeping Rolen around, there is no need for 3B in the high minors. You still have Soto for the long term, but Frazier and Francisco appear to be blocked everywhere in the near future (and there is significant doubt as to whether either can actually play 3B.)

As far as Webb leaving via FA, you have a couple of things working in your favor in that you are the local team (have him talk to Rolen about that) and you paid for his rehab- frequently players feel a sense of loyalty over that.

Plus, don't overlook the value that Chris Snyder would have to this team.

Benihana
08-13-2009, 02:45 PM
In light of Hal's recent claim that the Reds will trade Cordero before Harang/Arroyo, how about Cordero to the Phillies for JA Happ?

Lidge has a 7.29 ERA, and they already have one-too-many pitchers in their lefty-heavy rotation. Moyer is very unhappy about being moved to the bullpen, Philly could kill two birds with one stone, and we could get significantly cheaper, younger, and better in the rotation.

*BaseClogger*
08-13-2009, 04:58 PM
Dude, benihana, I mean this in a totally respectful way, but you have performed excellently in Krusty's absence...

flyer85
08-13-2009, 05:04 PM
1) Get Bronson some real PEDs
2) Find Willy T some non-termite infested wood
3) Spike Dusty's prune juice before he makes out the lineup

mth123
08-13-2009, 09:39 PM
In light of Hal's recent claim that the Reds will trade Cordero before Harang/Arroyo, how about Cordero to the Phillies for JA Happ?

Lidge has a 7.29 ERA, and they already have one-too-many pitchers in their lefty-heavy rotation. Moyer is very unhappy about being moved to the bullpen, Philly could kill two birds with one stone, and we could get significantly cheaper, younger, and better in the rotation.

I'd be ecstatic with that deal. It would be even better if Stewart and Roenicke were here to plug in.

Cordero for Happ and then sign John Smoltz to close.

schroomytunes
08-13-2009, 10:12 PM
Wow 3 moves! Ok here are my 3 moves:

1)I try to free some cash up to make a splash in the FA market so I trade Arroyo and pay his contract though this year to Boston who is hurting for pitching for Jed Lowrie(SS) and a low A prospect. This frees up 10 million for next year allowing me 20 million now!

2)I sign Rich Harden via Free Agency to shore up the rotation.

3)I sign Jason Marquis via Free Agency to shore up the rotation.

These 2 signings should be under the 20 million if Arroyo is moved, and You ask why no Offense? Well pitching wins games and with our guys in the minors they should be able to fill-in. So your 2010 Reds:

RF-Bruce
CF-Stubbs/Tavares
LF-Dickerson/Gomes
3b-Rolen/Rosales
SS-Lowrie/Janish
2b-Phillips
1b-Votto
C-Hanigan/Tatum

Rotation:
1)Cueto
2)Harang
3)Marquis
4)Harden
5)Owings

Bullpen:
1)Cordero
2)Masset
3)Rhodes
4)Herrera
5)Fisher
6)Burton
7)Bailey

The only weakness I see is the bench, and Spring training will offer some fillers there!

Ltlabner
08-13-2009, 10:41 PM
Four words: Gomes Long Term Contract

Had to get it in before Nate stole my thunder.