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Benihana
07-25-2009, 05:15 PM
So typical of the Reds...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9850064/Sources:-Jays,-Reds-talking-possible-Rolen-deal


Sources: Jays, Reds talking possible Rolen deal
The Reds and Blue Jays have had discussions within the past several days about a trade that would send Toronto third baseman Scott Rolen to Cincinnati, major league sources told FOXSports.com on Saturday.

The sides are still trying to determine which players would head to Toronto in the deal, but the source said that third baseman Edwin Encarnacion would be included.

A deal was not imminent as of Saturday afternoon, as Rolen played third base for the Blue Jays during their extra-inning game against Tampa Bay. The possible Rolen trade could also be affected by Toronto's ongoing trade talks relating to Roy Halladay.

Rolen won a World Series while playing for current Reds general manager Walt Jocketty in St. Louis. Cincinnati officials have been looking for a right-handed hitter such as Rolen for much of the season.

Rolen is having his best year since 2006, batting .319 with seven home runs and 37 RBIs.

The Reds, who have lost five straight games, are widely expected to sell at the deadline. But acquiring Rolen would give the team a head start on planning for 2010, since Rolen is already under contract for next year at $11 million.

Unless owner Bob Castellini plans to expand the team's payroll, acquiring Rolen may necessitate that Jocketty move other salaries off the books. One source with knowledge of the team's plans said the Reds have already made right-handers Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo available on the trade market.

Harang will earn $12.5 million next year, Arroyo $11 million.

I'm not interested unless Halladay is involved.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 05:16 PM
Blue Jays, Reds Discussing Rolen By Drew Silva [July 25 at 3:59pm CST]

According to Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com, a source has indicated that the Blue Jays and Reds are discussing a trade involving third baseman Scott Rolen. As Morosi writes,

"The sides are still trying to determine which players would head to Toronto in the deal, but the source said that third baseman Edwin Encarnacion would be included."

Rolen is enjoying a nice resurgence this season after spending the last several years battling injuries. As of Saturday afternoon, he's batting .317/.372/.469 with seven home runs and 37 RBI in 322 at-bats. He is owed $11MM next season and about $3.5MM for the rest of '09. The Reds are quickly falling out of contention, but adding Rolen's veteran presence and Gold Glove defense would surely help them chase the NL Wild Card.

Will M
07-25-2009, 05:19 PM
if its EE & another player/prospect then sign me up. why? because both EE's & Rolen's contracts are up after 2010 but Rolen is a better hitter & a way better fielder. it would be step #1 of improving the team for 2010. it would help this years team also but the #1 goal of any move Walt makes should be to improve the team from 2010 on.

alexad
07-25-2009, 05:19 PM
We are chasing our own tail, not to mention four other teams in the NL Central. So yea trade for Rolen and then chase the NL Wild Card.

Maybe three weeks ago, this would of been an awesome story.

StillFunkyB
07-25-2009, 05:19 PM
I would love to have Scott Rolen....


Seven years ago.

reds44
07-25-2009, 05:20 PM
I think this is a move for 2010...

Benihana
07-25-2009, 05:23 PM
if its EE & another player/prospect then sign me up. why? because both EE's & Rolen's contracts are up after 2010 but Rolen is a better hitter & a way better fielder. it would be step #1 of improving the team for 2010. it would help this years team also but the #1 goal of any move Walt makes should be to improve the team from 2010 on.

The difference in their salaries will most likely prevent other additions for next season, be it a Lackey, Holliday, or otherwise.

This is the exact type of Reds move that is half-assing it for the rest of the year. "Look what we did to try and contend!" after they are already out of it. Like I said, if Halladay is in the deal, or there are other high-priced acquisitions, then it's something else. If this is it, I'm not interested.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 05:33 PM
I wouldn't assume that this deal (IF it happens) would mean they wouldn't do anything else. Too soon to tell. But like others, I think this would be more for 2010. While the playoffs isn't technically impossible this year yet the odds are pretty stacked against it.

SirFelixCat
07-25-2009, 05:35 PM
The difference in their salaries will most likely prevent other additions for next season, be it a Lackey, Holliday, or otherwise.

This is the exact type of Reds move that is half-assing it for the rest of the year. "Look what we did to try and contend!" after they are already out of it. Like I said, if Halladay is in the deal, or there are other high-priced acquisitions, then it's something else. If this is it, I'm not interested.

Agreed. And 3b is not the issue w/ this team right now. Plain and simple.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 05:35 PM
I think this move would mean that other moves are certainly pending. The payroll isn't going to go up.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 05:35 PM
Agreed. And 3b is not the issue w/ this team right now. Plain and simple.

Yes it is.

reds44
07-25-2009, 05:36 PM
I just refuse to believe this would be the only move. I'd have to think there are more trades to follow. Considering Walt has said time and time again they won't make a move to mortgage the future, this has to be more for next year, with more moves to follow.

reds44
07-25-2009, 05:36 PM
Agreed. And 3b is not the issue w/ this team right now. Plain and simple.
Is it the top issue? No, but even I am starting to think it needs to be improved.

Benihana
07-25-2009, 05:43 PM
I would not include a Top 10 prospect with EE for Rolen, unless the Jays were picking up some of the bill.

However for Rolen and Halladay, I'd offer Alonso, Wood, Heisey, and just about anyone else in Dayton or Sarasota- provided they'd take EE and Arroyo to offset some of the cost.

SirFelixCat
07-25-2009, 05:46 PM
Is it the top issue? No, but even I am starting to think it needs to be improved.

That's my point. This simply isn't a pressing need. Give me a real, major league SS, a real LF that isn't a statue and some SP's...


My point isn't that EdE is the best we can hope for. Fine, if improving 3b is feasible, I'm all for it, but it's hardly a top 3 issue on this team.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 05:52 PM
Fix offense and defense wherever possible.

traderumor
07-25-2009, 05:53 PM
That's my point. This simply isn't a pressing need. Give me a real, major league SS, a real LF that isn't a statue and some SP's...


My point isn't that EdE is the best we can hope for. Fine, if improving 3b is feasible, I'm all for it, but it's hardly a top 3 issue on this team.I'll take more offense at any position right now. Add to it better D and it will make this team better, FWIW.

reds44
07-25-2009, 05:54 PM
Fix offense and defense wherever possible.
Yep. This wouldn't be the only move. If they just trade for Rolen and go into 2010 with crap in LF and SS again, I'll disagree with this trade.

If EE goes, I'll be rooting hard for him.

SirFelixCat
07-25-2009, 05:59 PM
Fix offense and defense wherever possible.


The key here is that this has to be done to go hand-in-hand with other moves. If it's the only move, then I feel like it's a move to make a move. As long as the other more pressing needs are addressed, then fine. But not by itself.

Reds1
07-25-2009, 06:03 PM
I would love to have Scott Rolen....


Seven years ago.

If EE and one other prospect I'm all for it. I'm not an EE fan these days. Still can't play defense and as we've seen the past few days defense has killed us. We need offense two and Rolen gives you both. I like the move for 2010, but for sure not a long term solution. I could go either way here, but wouldn't mind seeing it. He does get paid a lot. Depends on payroll and a few things I'm not privied too!

edabbs44
07-25-2009, 06:24 PM
One added plus to trading EE is that we'd be off the hook with waiting out his expected breakout season. There would be a similar bonus in dealing Homer for an upgraded arm.

Caveat Emperor
07-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Hard to see this as anything other than improving the team for both the remainder of 2009 and 2010.

Rolen is a better bat and a better glove than Encarnacion -- even at his age.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 06:41 PM
One added plus to trading EE is that we'd be off the hook with waiting out his expected breakout season. There would be a similar bonus in dealing Homer for an upgraded arm.
Except EE is older and has been playing for the Reds for a few seasons without much improvement.

Brutus
07-25-2009, 06:41 PM
Hard to see this as anything other than improving the team for both the remainder of 2009 and 2010.

Rolen is a better bat and a better glove than Encarnacion -- even at his age.

I agree. I'm trying to remind myself this is not the Scott Rolen that was being acquired from Philadelphia to St. Louis, but even in doing so, I can't help but think this makes the Reds a better team now and more importantly, next season. To me, this is a good trade regardless of what they would do elsewhere, though I hope they would make other corresponding moves (which it seems they intend to do).

This is more to the point I've been making about my belief Jocketty has had 2010 in mind all along.

edabbs44
07-25-2009, 06:47 PM
Except EE is older and has been playing for the Reds for a few seasons without much improvement.

My point exactly. Keeping him on the books will keep us thinking (or hoping) that he'll eventually break out. Now, we would deal him and not have to worry about him anymore.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 06:53 PM
My point exactly. Keeping him on the books will keep us thinking (or hoping) that he'll eventually break out. Now, we would deal him and not have to worry about him anymore.
I just wouldn't think of EE like I do Bailey. But IF they do make this trade AND a couple other moves 2010 will look a lot better (to me at least).

RANDY IN INDY
07-25-2009, 06:53 PM
If they trade for Rolen and re-sign Gonzalez, they can have a great defensive left side of the infield on the DL next season. I have always liked Rolen, but a 35 year old third baseman with a history of back problems sounds scary to me.

Reds1
07-25-2009, 06:53 PM
My point exactly. Keeping him on the books will keep us thinking (or hoping) that he'll eventually break out. Now, we would deal him and not have to worry about him anymore.

I like the way you think

osuceltic
07-25-2009, 06:58 PM
All for it. This solves third base for the rest of this season and 2010. We have an eternity to worry about anything beyond that.

Do this, then get to work on SS and LF.

Kc61
07-25-2009, 06:59 PM
This would be a very good trade for 2010 if too much isn't going to Toronto.

It improves third base and gives the Reds a better hitter at the position.

Perhaps Todd Frazier would become a third baseman and would eventually replace Rolen.

Third base may not be the highest order of need, but it would be an improvment. It could not, however, be the only upgrade. It would hopefully be one of several.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 07:04 PM
Third base may not be the highest order of need, but it would be an improvment. It could not, however, be the only upgrade. It would hopefully be one of several.
I agree. It may not be top priority but it would help. My main concern would be:


If they trade for Rolen and re-sign Gonzalez, they can have a great defensive left side of the infield on the DL next season. I have always liked Rolen, but a 35 year old third baseman with a history of back problems sounds scary to me.

TheNext44
07-25-2009, 07:08 PM
The key to this deal, if it happens, is the money. Rolen is worth money, if the Reds have it to spend, but I think it would put the Reds near their limit. If they can give better prospects and split the money, I'd do it, unless the prospects are expected to contribute next year.

I think the Reds finally realized that they can't compete with EE's glove at 3B. Rolen's glove will be a more important upgrade than his bat.

nate
07-25-2009, 07:41 PM
Agreed. And 3b is not the issue w/ this team right now. Plain and simple.

I'd argue that 3b and CF are the biggest problems with the offense to date.


Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
as DH 9 38 32 5 11 3 0 3 7 1 0 5 8 .344 .447 .719 1.166 23 1 1 0 0 0 0 .381 225 192
as P 86 203 171 11 25 4 1 3 13 0 0 6 59 .146 .174 .234 .408 40 5 0 25 1 0 2 .200 15 134
as C 95 387 331 31 98 16 2 3 30 4 5 45 38 .296 .379 .384 .762 127 6 2 4 5 6 2 .322 118 115
as PH 80 143 124 15 27 10 2 2 11 3 0 19 44 .218 .322 .379 .701 47 3 0 0 0 3 0 .321 98 114
as 2B 95 410 363 54 100 16 3 16 69 15 8 33 41 .275 .334 .468 .802 170 13 3 3 8 3 4 .268 125 112
as 1B 95 413 360 54 109 18 1 16 63 5 1 46 70 .303 .389 .492 .881 177 8 5 2 0 5 4 .339 148 110
as Infield 95 2006 1759 210 467 90 8 47 227 27 15 185 279 .265 .340 .406 .746 714 38 23 19 20 19 21 .289 111 98
at Def. Pos. 95 1628 1451 184 386 75 8 25 149 40 17 122 199 .266 .324 .380 .705 552 29 12 24 19 13 16 .290 99 93
at Off. Pos. 95 1626 1430 172 346 66 6 55 183 12 9 157 320 .242 .324 .412 .736 589 23 21 9 9 9 17 .273 108 87
as RF 95 408 362 42 79 16 2 19 51 5 3 42 79 .218 .302 .431 .733 156 6 2 1 1 2 3 .226 106 86
as SS 95 396 360 42 86 27 1 4 31 7 3 22 55 .239 .290 .353 .643 127 6 5 6 3 4 4 .270 82 82
as LF 95 405 363 47 84 19 2 12 35 1 2 30 96 .231 .298 .394 .692 143 4 6 2 4 1 3 .278 95 79
as Outfield 95 1248 1122 146 265 51 6 33 105 25 11 94 240 .236 .299 .381 .680 427 14 10 14 8 3 12 .271 92 77
as 3B 95 400 345 29 74 13 1 8 34 1 3 39 75 .214 .306 .328 .633 113 5 8 4 4 1 7 .248 80 70
as CF 95 435 397 57 102 16 2 2 19 19 6 22 65 .257 .297 .322 .620 128 4 2 11 3 0 6 .300 76 66


Hey, at least our pitchers are good hitters!

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 07:48 PM
Fwiw, that chart isn't exactly the best way to point to the difference between EE & Rolen. Rolen would replace EE. Only EE. That chart includes everyone that has had any time at 3rd (Hairston, Rosales, Sutton, etc).

mth123
07-25-2009, 07:49 PM
This is just what the Jays have been waiting for. Rolen has a healthy stretch and some sucker with a history with him comes along and takes him off their hands before his back explodes again. All things considered, I'd rather have EdE.

How quickly we forget Jr. landing on the DL again and again and again.

Kc61
07-25-2009, 07:50 PM
If they trade for Rolen and re-sign Gonzalez, they can have a great defensive left side of the infield on the DL next season. I have always liked Rolen, but a 35 year old third baseman with a history of back problems sounds scary to me.

Gonzo is not going to be the primary shortstop next year. It would be ridiculous for that to happen. He's had too many injuries, too much mileage to be the primary shortstop next year. And his contract is up.

Anything's possible, but that's not a realistic scenario.

As for third base, it's not as if EE has been injury free this season. Worst case, we have another mix and match year at third. And it's not like Griffey at all. Rolen isn't getting a lengthy extension, this is for a couple of years.

I'm not ecstatic about this possibility, but it would be a reasonable risk, a decent move for 2010 if the price is not too high.

Chip R
07-25-2009, 07:52 PM
Gonzo is not going to be the primary shortstop next year. It would be ridiculous for that to happen.

A lot of us thought it would be ridiculous to bring in a leadoff hitter who couldn't get on base but that's what happened.

Kc61
07-25-2009, 07:52 PM
This is just what the Jays have been waiting for. Rolen has a healthy stretch and some sucker with a history with him comes along and takes him off their hands before his back explodes again. All things considered, I'd rather have EdE.

How quickly we forget Jr. landing on the DL again and again and again.

The Reds signed Griffey for what, seven years. Very different from a short-term contract with Rolen that expires after 2010. If the Reds give Rolen a lengthy extension, then you're right, but nobody said that's happening.

SirFelixCat
07-25-2009, 07:54 PM
I'd argue that 3b and CF are the biggest problems with the offense to date.


Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
as DH 9 38 32 5 11 3 0 3 7 1 0 5 8 .344 .447 .719 1.166 23 1 1 0 0 0 0 .381 225 192
as P 86 203 171 11 25 4 1 3 13 0 0 6 59 .146 .174 .234 .408 40 5 0 25 1 0 2 .200 15 134
as C 95 387 331 31 98 16 2 3 30 4 5 45 38 .296 .379 .384 .762 127 6 2 4 5 6 2 .322 118 115
as PH 80 143 124 15 27 10 2 2 11 3 0 19 44 .218 .322 .379 .701 47 3 0 0 0 3 0 .321 98 114
as 2B 95 410 363 54 100 16 3 16 69 15 8 33 41 .275 .334 .468 .802 170 13 3 3 8 3 4 .268 125 112
as 1B 95 413 360 54 109 18 1 16 63 5 1 46 70 .303 .389 .492 .881 177 8 5 2 0 5 4 .339 148 110
as Infield 95 2006 1759 210 467 90 8 47 227 27 15 185 279 .265 .340 .406 .746 714 38 23 19 20 19 21 .289 111 98
at Def. Pos. 95 1628 1451 184 386 75 8 25 149 40 17 122 199 .266 .324 .380 .705 552 29 12 24 19 13 16 .290 99 93
at Off. Pos. 95 1626 1430 172 346 66 6 55 183 12 9 157 320 .242 .324 .412 .736 589 23 21 9 9 9 17 .273 108 87
as RF 95 408 362 42 79 16 2 19 51 5 3 42 79 .218 .302 .431 .733 156 6 2 1 1 2 3 .226 106 86
as SS 95 396 360 42 86 27 1 4 31 7 3 22 55 .239 .290 .353 .643 127 6 5 6 3 4 4 .270 82 82
as LF 95 405 363 47 84 19 2 12 35 1 2 30 96 .231 .298 .394 .692 143 4 6 2 4 1 3 .278 95 79
as Outfield 95 1248 1122 146 265 51 6 33 105 25 11 94 240 .236 .299 .381 .680 427 14 10 14 8 3 12 .271 92 77
as 3B 95 400 345 29 74 13 1 8 34 1 3 39 75 .214 .306 .328 .633 113 5 8 4 4 1 7 .248 80 70
as CF 95 435 397 57 102 16 2 2 19 19 6 22 65 .257 .297 .322 .620 128 4 2 11 3 0 6 .300 76 66


Hey, at least our pitchers are good hitters!

Kinda skewed seeing as EdE has missed 1/2 the season and can't account for a healthy chunk of time @ 3B, no?

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 07:54 PM
The Reds signed Griffey for what, seven years. Very different from a short-term contract with Rolen that expires after 2010. If the Reds give Rolen a lengthy extension, then you're right, but nobody said that's happening.

9 years. Post-age-30 seasons.

SirFelixCat
07-25-2009, 07:55 PM
The Reds signed Griffey for what, seven years. Very different from a short-term contract with Rolen that expires after 2010. If the Reds give Rolen a lengthy extension, then you're right, but nobody said that's happening.

I fear Rolen and his lack of health the last handful of years. That said, as long as the Reds don't give up anything major for him, I would think that Frazier would be ready to take over in late 2010 or 2011 for sure, right?

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 07:57 PM
Rolen didn't miss that much time before his current contract started. So I wouldn't be surprised if his next contract addresses injury concerns.

Chip R
07-25-2009, 08:02 PM
I fear Rolen and his lack of health the last handful of years. That said, as long as the Reds don't give up anything major for him, I would think that Frazier would be ready to take over in late 2010 or 2011 for sure, right?


It'd be nice if Frazier actually played 3rd lately. I can't imagine he's so good at 3rd that he could play at the major league level without having played there for awhile.

mth123
07-25-2009, 08:06 PM
The Reds signed Griffey for what, seven years. Very different from a short-term contract with Rolen that expires after 2010. If the Reds give Rolen a lengthy extension, then you're right, but nobody said that's happening.

I'm not worried about his next contract. I just think at his salary he'll be the key acquisition for 2010 and could very easily spend most of it on the DL. I'll pass.

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 08:14 PM
Like others have mentioned, this only works if there are also other moves made as well. It's something entirely different if it's the only move.

JaxRed
07-25-2009, 08:37 PM
Essentially every move Jocketty has made has so far (or not made) has reflected the reality of a small market team. Dumping Griffey and Dunn, not trading for Dye. Not signing any Krivsky-like disaster contracts (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, and semi-disaster contract Gonzalez).

So trading EE and a prospect for an 11 milion dollar guy would be a very bad sign.

Ron Madden
07-25-2009, 08:44 PM
Essentially every move Jocketty has made has so far (or not made) has reflected the reality of a small market team. Dumping Griffey and Dunn, not trading for Dye. Not signing any Krivsky-like disaster contracts (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, and semi-disaster contract Gonzalez).

So trading EE and a prospect for an 11 milion dollar guy would be a very bad sign.

I agree. Rolens best days are well behind him, I don't think he is worth 11 million.

edabbs44
07-25-2009, 08:45 PM
I agree. Rolens best days are well behind him, I don't think he is worth 11 million.

There would have to be a decent amt of money coming back.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 08:54 PM
There would have to be a decent amt of money coming back.

I imagine Ricciardi is moving Rolen to shed money.

If Rolen could fill the salary space left by Arroyo if he's moved, it would be a mammoth coup. But that's two "if"s

edabbs44
07-25-2009, 09:00 PM
I imagine Ricciardi is moving Rolen to shed money.

If Rolen could fill the salary space left by Arroyo if he's moved, it would be a mammoth coup. But that's two "if"s

Shedding money could mean taking on 50%.

EdE and a prospect is a decent return. I would assume that Toronto is paying some of his remaining money.

LoganBuck
07-25-2009, 09:01 PM
re-sign Gonzalez,

Shhhhhh!!!! Don't even think about it. Someone will read that. I have to go pour rubbing alcohol in my eyes for even reading that.

Stormy
07-25-2009, 09:02 PM
If they trade for Rolen and re-sign Gonzalez, they can have a great defensive left side of the infield on the DL next season. I have always liked Rolen, but a 35 year old third baseman with a history of back problems sounds scary to me.

Rolen is good for about 1 productive, and healthy, year out of every 4 seasons at this point. ;)

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 09:03 PM
6:08pm: AOL FanHouse's Ed Price tweets that it's possible for the Reds to acquire Rolen, "but a lot would have to happen," according to a source.
Now I don't know who Ed Price is but I think the point is that, at this point, it's just a rumor.

RANDY IN INDY
07-25-2009, 09:03 PM
Gonzo is not going to be the primary shortstop next year. It would be ridiculous for that to happen. He's had too many injuries, too much mileage to be the primary shortstop next year. And his contract is up.

Anything's possible, but that's not a realistic scenario.

As for third base, it's not as if EE has been injury free this season. Worst case, we have another mix and match year at third. And it's not like Griffey at all. Rolen isn't getting a lengthy extension, this is for a couple of years.

I'm not ecstatic about this possibility, but it would be a reasonable risk, a decent move for 2010 if the price is not too high.

I said that, about Gonzo, mainly in jest. I would hope that he is on someone else's DL next season.

GradyHatton
07-25-2009, 09:03 PM
Like others have mentioned, this only works if there are also other moves made as well. It's something entirely different if it's the only move.

Seems to me that any move will have minimal positive impact if it's the only move. That said, I'm in favor of bringing in Rolen. Then get a shortstop.....and a corner outfielder.......and.......;)

RedEye
07-25-2009, 09:19 PM
Are we really certain that Rolen, at his age, would be that much of an upgrade over EE? Since when have 26 year-old, cheap, productive 3B gone out of style? I just don't get it.

Stormy
07-25-2009, 09:28 PM
Are we really certain that Rolen, at his age, would be that much of an upgrade over EE? Since when have 26 year-old, cheap, productive 3B gone out of style? I just don't get it.

EdE has out-produced Rolen both of the past 2 seasons, while staying vastly more healthy. And I wouldn't be surprised to see EdE be more productive this year during the July-September period.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 09:32 PM
EdE has out-produced Rolen both of the past 2 seasons, while staying vastly more healthy. And I wouldn't be surprised to see EdE be more productive this year during the July-September period.

EdE's fine, but he's not a 3rd baseman. That's beyond established. I'd have no problem keeping him and putting him in LF. But if he moves to LF, then the Reds have no 3rd baseman in earnest. Enter Rolen.

Stormy
07-25-2009, 09:37 PM
EdE's fine, but he's not a 3rd baseman. That's beyond established. I'd have no problem keeping him and putting him in LF. But if he moves to LF, then the Reds have no 3rd baseman in earnest. Enter Rolen.

Yea, I see where you are coming from. I would still feel that Rolen's salary is a luxury we can't afford, given that his addition would still leave us needing to vastly upgrade SS, LF and a mid-high rotation spot. A lot of money allocated to a guy who hasn't produced consistently in years, and who is on a first name basis with the DL.

IslandRed
07-25-2009, 09:38 PM
EdE's fine, but he's not a 3rd baseman. That's beyond established. I'd have no problem keeping him and putting him in LF. But if he moves to LF, then the Reds have no 3rd baseman in earnest. Enter Rolen.

Yep. And starting next year, Encarnacion's not that cheap. Cheaper than Rolen, yes. But no longer cheap enough for the prevailing logic to this point -- "good offense, he gives a lot of it back on defense, but that's okay, he's cheap" -- to remain nearly as logical.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 10:22 PM
Rolen for 11 mil next year is alot for someone that is basicly a 810ish OPS guy the last four years.

With a bad back.

It sounds exactly like something the Reds would do.

LINEDRIVER
07-25-2009, 10:28 PM
Third base may not be the biggest problem on this team, but if someone is willing to take EEE, then I am all for it. 100%. Who else would want EEE other than Toronto??? Even if it means taking on Rolen and his 34-year-old not-so-healthy back that has caused him to cut down on his swing and become a singles hitter. To see EEE 'get the hell out of Dodge' would probably rank in my top five all-time Reds' memories. I've been a big Reds fan since 1964 and there has not been a Reds' player I've despised more than EEE.

corkedbat
07-25-2009, 10:30 PM
Rolen for EdE (+)? :thumbdown Three years ago? Sign me up. A one year (+) bridge to Frazier or Francisco doesn't sound that bad at first glance, but then you start thinking what else could the $11M be ear-marked for? What who else might EdE fetch in a deal? What are the chances of a 35yo Rolen staying healthy for all of 2010?

I'd pass, but this is just the kind of disjointed, poorly-conceived, pointless move I've come to expect. Improve the team now - I'm all for it, but make a deal with some future also!

I'm all for getting Edwin a change of scenery, but surely there's another deal. Does Frisco still want him?

reds44
07-25-2009, 10:30 PM
Third base may not be the biggest problem on this team, but if someone is willing to take EEE, then I am all for it. 100%. Who else would want EEE other than Toronto??? Even if it means taking on Rolen and his 34-year-old not-so-healthy back that has caused him to cut down on his swing and become a singles hitter. To see EEE 'get the hell out of Dodge' would probably rank in my top five all-time Reds' memories. I've been a big Reds fan since 1964 and there has not been a Reds' player I've despised more than EEE.
Probably a lot of teams.

LINEDRIVER
07-25-2009, 10:37 PM
His lapses in the field and in the batter's box would not be tolerated by most other teams. He would be booed off the field in many big league cities.

He would have to become a left fielder to have a chance.

mth123
07-25-2009, 10:39 PM
His lapses in the field and in the batter's box would not be tolerated by most other teams. He would be booed off the field in many big league cities.

Maybe. Then he could sit on the end of the bench with the $11 Million DL guys.

I don't mind the Reds dealing EdE. I want no part of Rolen. Sadly, the drop-off from EdE to other in house options is huge.

LINEDRIVER
07-25-2009, 10:43 PM
Perhaps Jocketty is ALSO looking to fill a major void on this team known as clubhouse leadership.

reds44
07-25-2009, 10:44 PM
His lapses in the field and in the batter's box would not be tolerated by most other teams. He would be booed off the field in many big league cities.

He would have to become a left fielder to have a chance.
You exaggerate. He really hasn't been that bad in the field this year, and he's been more than adequate with the bat since coming off the DL.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 10:45 PM
Perhaps Jocketty is ALSO looking to fill a major void on this team known as clubhouse leadership.

I'd rather he fill the void of talent first. Let Dusty handle the "leadership" part. it's his primary skill.

Degenerate39
07-25-2009, 10:45 PM
His lapses in the field and in the batter's box would not be tolerated by most other teams. He would be booed off the field in many big league cities.

He would have to become a left fielder to have a chance.

I doubt his bat is good enough for left field honestly.

LoganBuck
07-25-2009, 10:45 PM
I have a feeling that Rolen is being targeted because the team needs a "veteran leader". This team is a collection of the young, unproven, and never were. I don't think any of the older pitchers are the kind of personality they are looking for, and besides during game situations the older bullpen guys are, not in the dugout. There seems to be a cry for the Reds to add veteran leadership, I think this is just an extension of that.

mth123
07-25-2009, 10:46 PM
Perhaps Jocketty is ALSO looking to fill a major void on this team known as clubhouse leadership.

I hope so. I hope he gets it from some one likely to perform on the field. They already have $4 Million Manager who doesn't play in any games, eating up the budget and doesn't seem to be able to provide it. I don't see the need to add an $11 Million DL guy to the mix.

Ron Madden
07-25-2009, 10:48 PM
Perhaps Jocketty is ALSO looking to fill a major void on this team known as clubhouse leadership.

Maybe he is, I hope not. I hope he's looking for young talented players.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 10:55 PM
Leadership + scrappy players=Cincy lovefest.

Find a scrappy leader and he could print money out of his basement.

Chip R
07-25-2009, 10:55 PM
I have a feeling that Rolen is being targeted because the team needs a "veteran leader".

That may be but Rolen has a reputation for being very quiet. Doesn't mean he can't be a leader but many fans look for that in your face rah rah guy to be a leader.

Ron Madden
07-25-2009, 10:59 PM
I really believe that all this veteran presence and clubhouse leader stuff is very over-rated. Games are won on the field not in the clubhouse.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 11:02 PM
I really believe that all this veteran presence and clubhouse leader stuff is very over-rated. Games are won on the field not in the clubhouse.

Someone has to be in charge of what music gets played in the locker-room, dude.

15fan
07-25-2009, 11:08 PM
I really believe that all this veteran presence and clubhouse leader stuff is very over-rated. Games are won on the field not in the clubhouse.

I'll play devil's advocate.

The Reds haven't been worth a rip in a decade. The last time they were relevant in MLB was 1999..the same year that Greg Vaugh showed up and started getting in guys' grills.

Raisor
07-25-2009, 11:14 PM
I'll play devil's advocate.

The Reds haven't been worth a rip in a decade. The last time they were relevant in MLB was 1999..the same year that Greg Vaugh showed up and started getting in guys' grills.

I guess they could hire Greg Vaughn to come in every couple days to yell at them.

Ron Madden
07-25-2009, 11:14 PM
I'll play devil's advocate.

The Reds haven't been worth a rip in a decade. The last time they were relevant in MLB was 1999..the same year that Greg Vaugh showed up and started getting in guys' grills.

I don't believe the Reds won 96 games because Greg Vaughn was a clubhouse leader.

You go ahead and believe whatever you want, you have the right.

:)

CTA513
07-25-2009, 11:16 PM
I guess they could hire Greg Vaughn to come in every couple days to yell at them.

I'll do it for cheaper.

:D

Raisor
07-25-2009, 11:17 PM
I don't believe the Reds won 96 games because Greg Vaughn was a clubhouse leader.

You go ahead and believe whatever you want, you have the right.

:)

I think it was because Mark Sweeny destroyed pitchers to the tune of .355 .429 .645 1.074 over 35 glorious PA's.

Ron Madden
07-25-2009, 11:20 PM
I think it was because Mark Sweeny destroyed pitchers to the tune of .355 .429 .645 1.074 over 35 glorious PA's.

That may have had more to do with winning some games than clubhouse leadership.

mth123
07-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Leadership is like Hustle. Of course its a good thing. I wouldn't take a lesser player for his leadership though, just like I wouldn't want a lesser player just because he runs to first on a walk. Give me a good player who does those things and I'll be very happy. At this point, I just suspect that Rolen will not stay on the field enough to qualify as a good player. $11 Million going toward a leader on the sidelines causes the team to give-up talent in other areas to stick to the budget. Doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

Scrap Irony
07-25-2009, 11:22 PM
To get back on track, I don't mind Cincinnati dealing for Rolen, assuming a lesser prospect goes to Toronto. He's still a plus defender and a quality hitter. He's a better player, at this point, than is EdE. The caveat that goes along with that, however, is that the Reds can't be done at that point. He'd be a great #6 hitter, below, say, Votto, Holiday/Bay, and Bruce.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-25-2009, 11:30 PM
This is hilarious, yet appropriate. A day after the Cards land Holliday, the Reds appear to be going after the guy that SEVEN years ago they missed out on (and the Cards didn't).

Maybe in seven years they'll go after Holliday. LOL. Folks, the difference between Cincy and St. Louis can be summed up right here.

A day late and a dollar short.

As for Rolen. No thank you.

RedLegSuperStar
07-25-2009, 11:35 PM
No thanks on Rolen.. I think he is having a good year but wouldn't be a player i'd target. Look at SS and LF Walt.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Encarnacion and Rolen are a wash offensively and other than this year, EE actually plays.

Rolen has missed 223 games the past four years (not counting what he's missed in 2009). He played 2/3 of a year in both 2007 and 2008 and he OPS'd .729 and .780. All that and the guy is in his 35th year. He ain't getting any better folks, and he certainly isn't going to get healthier.

I can't even believe this is an option, but with the Reds I shouldn't be surprised.

Homer Bailey
07-26-2009, 01:21 AM
I think it's safe to say this move makes no sense. Make this move in the offseason when it would cost much less and maybe it's a good move. It they buy at this deadline, I think I'm officially done as a fan.

Caveat Emperor
07-26-2009, 03:20 AM
Are we really certain that Rolen, at his age, would be that much of an upgrade over EE? Since when have 26 year-old, cheap, productive 3B gone out of style? I just don't get it.

When they can't play defense worth a damn -- that act has never been in style and never will be.

EE doesn't have the quickness, range, footwork or instinct to play third base effectively, and he doesn't have the bat to play LF. Unless one of those two things changes, he's a utility player and a bat off the bench masquerading as an everyday player -- which makes it no surprise he's starting for the Reds.

TheNext44
07-26-2009, 04:39 AM
6:08pm: AOL FanHouse's Ed Price tweets that it's possible for the Reds to acquire Rolen, "but a lot would have to happen," according to a source.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I am guessing that Reds are trying to move one of big three contracts, Harang, Arroyo or Cordero, first before taking on Rolen. There is about a $10M difference between EE's contract and Rolen's contract for this year and 2010. Trading one of those three saves the Reds between $15M and $18M depending on who it is.

thatcoolguy_22
07-26-2009, 05:51 AM
Pure conjecture on my part, but I am guessing that Reds are trying to move one of big three contracts, Harang, Arroyo or Cordero, first before taking on Rolen. There is about a $10M difference between EE's contract and Rolen's contract for this year and 2010. Trading one of those three saves the Reds between $15M and $18M depending on who it is.

With Hernandez coming off the books next year, the Reds could still afford Rolen while maintaining payroll flex. Trading Arroyo or Harang would be a luxury to the budget but, not exactly necessary IMO. WJ does not need to trade for a bag of marbles to have any spending money in the offseason. If Rolen is picked up, it would virtually guarentee that Razor Ramon will be playing baseball for another squad next year. just my .02

kpresidente
07-26-2009, 07:51 AM
This makes sense if it means EE > LF

Solves two big problems: who plays LF next year and what to do about the terrible defense at 3B? That leaves SS as the only real issue.

OldXOhio
07-26-2009, 11:35 AM
Agreed. And 3b is not the issue w/ this team right now. Plain and simple.

The entire organization is an issue badly in need of an overhaul. If it means parting with EE for Rolen for 2010, then that would appear to be the case. Have to think Walt's trying to throw Arroyo or Harang into the deal to cover the discrepancy in cost. Sign me up.

wheels
07-26-2009, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't mind if Rolen were a Red.

Thing is....Don't they have other more pressing areas of need that they could be pursuing?

HokieRed
07-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Toronto's trying to unload salary so I see no way they're going to be taking on highly overpriced back of the rotation starters like Harang and Arroyo. If we sign Rolen I think we keep Harang and Arroyo, hope they can do about what they've done this year as next year's 4 and 5 and look for real elevation of the rotation next year out of Cueto, Volquez, and Bailey, next year's possible 1, 2, 3 (with Owings as fallback). If those three (Cueto, Volquez, Bailey) can assume that status by next year, Rolen might be enough to make us serious. EE, in my view, will not, either at 3b or in LF where he's unlikely to outperform even a Gomes-Nix platoon. Rolen makes us better for 2010, which is all we'd really want out of him. 2011 will bring a more extensive change to the whole lineup.

_Sir_Charles_
07-26-2009, 11:56 AM
This is just what the Jays have been waiting for. Rolen has a healthy stretch and some sucker with a history with him comes along and takes him off their hands before his back explodes again. All things considered, I'd rather have EdE.

How quickly we forget Jr. landing on the DL again and again and again.

This is what I forsee exactly. I like Rolen when he's healthy. But how often IS that really? I don't see him having longer healthy stretches this late in his career.

In my eyes, this is a move to get the headache that is EE off the books period. It opens up a slot for the numerous up-and-coming minor league guys like Frazier, Valiaka, Francisco, etc. Rolen will be much easier to move to the bench when those guys are ready due to his age.

I don't mind the deal, but to assume this helps us for 2010 is just ignoring his injury history and age IMO.

redsfan4445
07-27-2009, 11:53 AM
per mlb traderumors today:and the Toronto sun

*It doesn't look like the Reds will acquire Scott Rolen, now that they're nine games below .500 and in fifth place. A few weeks ago the Reds wanted to trade for Rolen, but asked the Jays to pay half of his $11MM salary next year"

Season is over anyways..

traderumor
07-27-2009, 02:45 PM
per mlb traderumors today:and the Toronto sun

*It doesn't look like the Reds will acquire Scott Rolen, now that they're nine games below .500 and in fifth place. A few weeks ago the Reds wanted to trade for Rolen, but asked the Jays to pay half of his $11MM salary next year"

Season is over anyways..I don't know how much truth there is to the details, but let's assume that the Reds are in talks on Rolen. Here is what is bugging me if now they do not decide to get him. Are you telling me that Walt did not see this coming anymore than we did? If you are working out a deal for Rolen, I would hope that WJ wasn't looking at the standings as the barometer. The GM needs to know his team better than that.

If he was considering dealing for Rolen when we were around .500, then it is still just as good an idea today if it makes the squad better, esp. looking toward 2010. Sure, there are budgetary constraints, but if this was an "if we're in contention" thought, then he clearly doesn't know his team well enough, which is honestly inexcusable at this stage.

Yet, the evidence points to him being as possibly delusional about the current squad as some of the most optimistic fans. If our GM is sitting around waiting to see where we are on this date or the other, we are sunk, because that is not a man with a plan. I know that this has the possibility of being one big strawman argument because the above information is just rumor at this point, but the clues suggest that he really thought this team, injuries not withstanding, had a chance.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 02:58 PM
I don't know how much truth there is to the details, but let's assume that the Reds are in talks on Rolen. Here is what is bugging me if now they do not decide to get him. Are you telling me that Walt did not see this coming anymore than we did? If you are working out a deal for Rolen, I would hope that WJ wasn't looking at the standings as the barometer. The GM needs to know his team better than that.

If he was considering dealing for Rolen when we were around .500, then it is still just as good an idea today if it makes the squad better, esp. looking toward 2010. Sure, there are budgetary constraints, but if this was an "if we're in contention" thought, then he clearly doesn't know his team well enough, which is honestly inexcusable at this stage.

Yet, the evidence points to him being as possibly delusional about the current squad as some of the most optimistic fans. If our GM is sitting around waiting to see where we are on this date or the other, we are sunk, because that is not a man with a plan. I know that this has the possibility of being one big strawman argument because the above information is just rumor at this point, but the clues suggest that he really thought this team, injuries not withstanding, had a chance.

I agree, traderumor.

I'm also troubled that Walt was even entertaining the thought of acquiring Scott Rolen for 2009 and 2010. At this point, he would cost about $9-10M more than EE through 2010 and all we'd be getting is 8-10 less errors per 162 games played, with less offensive production.

Add the fact that Rolen is going to be 35 and only plays 60-70% of the time and it makes for a really bad acquisition, expecially if your actually giving something up for him.

OldXOhio
07-27-2009, 03:07 PM
I don't know how much truth there is to the details

Therein lies your answer I believe. And I think your point is well taken despite my feeling that WJ had to know this type of collapse could be imminent. Whether you agree with the trade idea or not, an argument can certainly be made that acquiring a player like Scott Rolen could make sense for next year.

RedEye
07-27-2009, 03:10 PM
I agree, traderumor.

I'm also troubled that Walt was even entertaining the thought of acquiring Scott Rolen for 2009 and 2010. At this point, he would cost about $11M more than EE through 2010 and all we'd be getting is 8-10 less errors per 162 games played, with less offensive production.

Add the fact that Rolen is going to be 35 and only plays 60-70% of the time and it makes for a really bad acquisition, expecially if your actually giving something up for him.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. I am completely mystified as to why the Reds would think Rolen is an upgrade--and troubled that the team would want to acquire him by using up valuable prospects in what is already clearly a lost season. All things considered, I prefer EE.

Jpup
07-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Couldn't have said it any better myself. I am completely mystified as to why the Reds would think Rolen is an upgrade--and troubled that the team would want to acquire him by using up valuable prospects in what is already clearly a lost season. All things considered, I prefer EE.

He's Walt's buddy?

nate
07-27-2009, 03:13 PM
I can't remember if I said it earlier but it ties into another thought currently flying around tORG. That is, Rolen is a name people know. In fact, it might be a name the casual fan knows better than half the current 25-man roster. Therefore, getting Rolen might help attendance in addition to the lineup.

I reserve the right for the preceding to be farfetched.

RedEye
07-27-2009, 03:14 PM
He's Walt's buddy?

Gah... I really hope that's not the reason. That sort of "buddy" deal tends to go bad for teams--especially the Reds. See Patterson, Corey.

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 03:17 PM
Saw a rumor floating around that the Blue Jays have people in town tonight to watch Homer Bailey and EE.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 03:26 PM
Saw a rumor floating around that the Blue Jays have people in town tonight to watch Homer Bailey and EE.

OMGSMITH!

Benihana
07-27-2009, 03:32 PM
Saw a rumor floating around that the Blue Jays have people in town tonight to watch Homer Bailey and EE.

That would be too much for Rolen, even if the Jays kick in $5MM. EE and a non-top 5 prospect, fine. Anything more would be uncivilized.

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 03:34 PM
The return might not be limited to Rolen. At this point with all the rumors floating around they may be sending someone down to try some LaRosa's, Skyline, and a Penn Station sub.

Roy Tucker
07-27-2009, 03:36 PM
This all sounds like a Buddy Bell or Bill Doran trade, i.e. lets go get a guy that we've always wanted and maybe we can squeeze a year out of him at the tail end of his career.

Just the kind of thing you want to build a ball club on. :rolleyes:

Benihana
07-27-2009, 03:38 PM
The return might not be limited to Rolen. At this point with all the rumors floating around they may be sending someone down to try some LaRosa's, Skyline, and a Penn Station sub.

Might be interesting if they trade EE and Bailey for Rolen, Scutaro and cash. Offer Scuarto arb and either he accepts and you have a SS or he declines and you have Type A draft picks. I'd still like a little more, though. Scutaro is having a career year at age 34- not exactly the type you want to "Buy now."

traderumor
07-27-2009, 03:42 PM
This all sounds like a Buddy Bell or Bill Doran trade, i.e. lets go get a guy that we've always wanted and maybe we can squeeze a year out of him at the tail end of his career.

Just the kind of thing you want to build a ball club on. :rolleyes:The flip side of that is that Buddy Bell was productive while he was here and helped set the stage for contending teams the rest of the decade as the kids grew into their roles that culminated in the 1990 WS.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 03:44 PM
The flip side of that is that Buddy Bell was productive while he was here and helped set the stage for contending teams the rest of the decade as the kids grew into their roles that culminated in the 1990 WS.

Bell played very well for the Reds. Would love to have someone that would contribute as much as he did, offensively and defensively at 3b for a couple of years. Bell was a professional and was good for the kids that were breaking in.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 03:45 PM
Let's say they trade Homer and EE for Rolen and the Jays kick in the remainder of Rolen's salary for 2009 ($4M+).

In 2010, the Reds would be paying Rolen $6.25M more than they'd be paying EE.

What would that get them?

Better D at 3B more than likely, but less offense (if the 35-year old Rolen is even healthy).

All that, and you've given them Homer. A guy that has been traded when his value is low and there was never an attempt to see what he could do out of the bullpen.

I just don't see how this makes the club better in 2010 and you've spent a bit more money in the process. Rolen would probabaly be gone by 2011, replaced by Frazier, etc. So, in the end, you spent $6M+ and gave up a live arm for nothing, but maybe a few more butts in the seats. That's it.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 03:47 PM
Wouldn't give them Homer and EE. Way too much.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 03:49 PM
Bailey and EdE for Rolen would be an awful trade.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Bailey and EdE for Rolen would be an awful trade.

Really awful.

Roy Tucker
07-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Bell played very well for the Reds. Would love to have someone that would contribute as much as he did, offensively and defensively at 3b for a couple of years. Bell was a professional and was good for the kids that were breaking in.

That's a good point and I'd be OK with it if the Reds had the caliber of players like Eric Davis, Kal Daniels, Barry Larkin, and Paul O'Neil rolling down the pike. But I don't think they do.

klw
07-27-2009, 03:55 PM
Bailey and EdE for Rolen would be an awful trade.

It sounds like part of a three team trade where another player would be coming in from team C. Possibly as an attachment to a Halladay deal. Ex Phils won't part with Happ and Drabek but will give up Taylor and Dominic Brown (?). Jays don't want both OF's and want a young power arm. They flip Taylor to the Reds with Rolen for Bailey and EdE.

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
Bailey and EdE for Rolen would be an awful trade.


Really awful.

Really, really awful.

CTA513
07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
Bailey and EdE for Rolen would be an awful trade.

:beerme:

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 04:59 PM
Really, really awful.

There would probably be more coming back to Cincy.

wheels
07-27-2009, 05:06 PM
They can't seriously be thinking about Homer and EE for Rolen.

There has to be another player or some prospects (or money) coming back. Walt Jocketty isn't a total dunce.

reds44
07-27-2009, 05:16 PM
Just do Homer for Rolen and see if EE can play LF for the rest of the year.

redsfan4445
07-27-2009, 05:17 PM
this was just posted at 4:59 pm

"Reds, Jays still talking about Rolen
Posted on: July 27, 2009 4:25 pm
Edited on: July 27, 2009 4:59 pm

The Reds are not sellers.

Despite an 0-6 trip to Los Angeles and Chicago, the Reds have continued to talk to Toronto about acquiring third baseman Scott Rolen, and sources said the deal has a chance of happening.

The Reds are in fifth place in the National League East, 7 1/2 games behind the first-place Cubs, but club officials are said to believe that the competition isn't imposing and that their young lineup would be helped considerably by the addition of the 34-year-old Rolen. Rolen is hitting .318 with eight home runs and 40 RBIs in 85 games for Toronto.

Cincinnati has scored fewer runs than any NL team other than San Francisco and San Diego.

Rolen, who is signed through 2010, played for Reds general manager Walt Jocketty for 5 1/2 years in St. Louis.

The Reds have talked to teams about trading pitchers, including Bronson Arroyo, but sources said such deals would only be made if they helped the Reds this year and next."

Im lost to think the Reds front office think Rolen alone will turn this lousy season around!!!! and then trading 2 of your starters and your closer.. I say ZERO chance they win hardly any more games and just have a rookie closer and 2 more AAA starters..

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:20 PM
this was just posted at 4:59 pm

"Reds, Jays still talking about Rolen
Posted on: July 27, 2009 4:25 pm
Edited on: July 27, 2009 4:59 pm

The Reds are not sellers.

Despite an 0-6 trip to Los Angeles and Chicago, the Reds have continued to talk to Toronto about acquiring third baseman Scott Rolen, and sources said the deal has a chance of happening.

The Reds are in fifth place in the National League East, 7 1/2 games behind the first-place Cubs, but club officials are said to believe that the competition isn't imposing and that their young lineup would be helped considerably by the addition of the 34-year-old Rolen. Rolen is hitting .318 with eight home runs and 40 RBIs in 85 games for Toronto.

Cincinnati has scored fewer runs than any NL team other than San Francisco and San Diego.

Rolen, who is signed through 2010, played for Reds general manager Walt Jocketty for 5 1/2 years in St. Louis.

The Reds have talked to teams about trading pitchers, including Bronson Arroyo, but sources said such deals would only be made if they helped the Reds this year and next."

Im lost to think the Reds front office think Rolen alone will turn this lousy season around!!!! and then trading 2 of your starters and your closer.. I say ZERO chance they win hardly any more games and just have a rookie closer and 2 more AAA starters..

Danny Knobler has been wrong repeatedly in the last few days. I'd take this report with a grain of salt.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 05:38 PM
Danny Knobler has been wrong repeatedly in the last few days. I'd take this report with a grain of salt.

At face value, I'd take any report with a grain of salt. But the thing is, a lot of people have been saying the Reds are talking about Rolen.

I think there's an awful lot of smoke right now about this.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:42 PM
At face value, I'd take any report with a grain of salt. But the thing is, a lot of people have been saying the Reds are talking about Rolen.

I think there's an awful lot of smoke right now about this.

I do too, and I'm not saying Rolen won't be a Red. But, Knobler's sources have been way off this week.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
I do too, and I'm not saying Rolen won't be a Red. But, Knobler's sources have been way off this week.

That makes sense. I don't know that I've particularly seen his stuff this week so I can't speak for that.

Ron Madden
07-28-2009, 02:59 AM
I honestly don't know what good can come of this deal.

Rolen, IF he remains healthy will be a better defensive 3B than Edwin, but that's an awful BIG IF. I believe Edwin will put up better offensive numbers than Rolen for the remainder of this season and in the 2010 season.

Just my humble opinion.

Ltlabner
07-28-2009, 06:09 AM
If anything happens, and I seriously doubt we're going to see anything more than window dressing moves, the Reds will trade EE for Rolen. Rolen will have a stretch of good games including some nice plays and the fans will declare it a master move.

Rolen will then get injured, Adam Rosales/JHJ will take over third and EE will continue to produce for the Jays. Oh yea, to really rub it in, they'll find a way to fix EE's throwing issues.

osuceltic
07-28-2009, 09:41 AM
Rolen will then get injured, Adam Rosales/JHJ will take over third and EE will continue to produce for the Jays. Oh yea, to really rub it in, they'll find a way to fix EE's throwing issues.

Continue???

TheNext44
07-28-2009, 12:40 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/reds-are-sellers-close-to-making-a-deal.html


Reds Still Eyeing Scott Rolen
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 28, 2009 at 11:14am CST]

TUESDAY, 11:14am: Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports says the Reds "haven't ruled out" a Rolen acquisition, but must wait to see what the Jays do with Roy Halladay first.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2009, 12:54 PM
My guess is that Rolen would help about as much as Aurilia did in 05--that is, a lot. In spite of teeth-gnashers.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 12:55 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/reds-are-sellers-close-to-making-a-deal.html

This leads me to believe the deal is contingent upon the Jays kicking back some money, which perhaps they're not able (or willing) to do unless Halladay is traded.

Benihana
07-28-2009, 01:03 PM
This leads me to believe the deal is contingent upon the Jays kicking back some money, which perhaps they're not able (or willing) to do unless Halladay is traded.

I think it's been well-documented that is indeed the case. The Reds want the Jays to pick up half of Rolen's 2010 salary. I'd also be interested in Marco Scuarto.

However I wouldn't offer that much in addition to EE. In other words, no Homer Bailey and no Alonso/Frazier/Stewart.

HokieRed
07-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Having watched Scott Rolen, will Toronto fans rebel at watching EE play defense? I'm just not buying that EE is part of the trade.

Benihana
07-28-2009, 02:06 PM
Having watched Scott Rolen, will Toronto fans rebel at watching EE play defense? I'm just not buying that EE is part of the trade.

Who plays 3B if he's not? Would that cause a bigger rebellion?

HokieRed
07-28-2009, 02:09 PM
Todd Frazier? Drew Sutton until Juan Francisco can do it?

Benihana
07-28-2009, 02:10 PM
Todd Frazier? Drew Sutton until Juan Francisco can do it?

Uh, I thought we were talking about the Blue Jays?

HokieRed
07-28-2009, 02:12 PM
I am.

Benihana
07-28-2009, 02:25 PM
I am.

I have a hard time believing that any team would prefer a return of Drew Sutton and/or Juan Francisco to EE. If they would, be my guest!

HokieRed
07-28-2009, 05:53 PM
I have a hard time believing that any team would prefer a return of Drew Sutton and/or Juan Francisco to EE. If they would, be my guest!

That wouldn't be the whole package. The whole package might involve either one of Stubbs/Heisey, probably Stubbs, and both Sutton and Francisco, or possibly a pitcher. If the name isn't Bailey, Travis Wood will surely be the one being talked about. I just think that there's next to no reason for a club that's trying to cut payroll to take on EE, whose value I think RZers tend to vastly overrate.

paulrichjr
07-29-2009, 12:17 AM
There obviously could be a trade for Rolen but if a deal is made it would appear that there really is no truth to the rumors over the years of LaRussa coming here. I think some have speculated on that if Dusty was fired this winter. LaRussa and Rolen didn't see "eye to eye" the last time they wore the same uniform.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 09:01 AM
Foxsports.com says the Reds are still trying to get Rolen, but the Jays are holding it up because on the Halladay stuff. They also said the Reds are not in on Halladay.

PuffyPig
07-29-2009, 09:19 AM
That wouldn't be the whole package. The whole package might involve either one of Stubbs/Heisey, probably Stubbs, and both Sutton and Francisco, or possibly a pitcher. If the name isn't Bailey, Travis Wood will surely be the one being talked about. I just think that there's next to no reason for a club that's trying to cut payroll to take on EE, whose value I think RZers tend to vastly overrate.

Stubbs and Francisco, or Stubbs and Bailey/Woods for about one year of Rolen????

Have I fallen asleep and suddenly awoken at a time that we are contending?

We should be trading guys like Rolen instead of trading two top prospects for an aging vet.

HokieRed
07-29-2009, 09:30 AM
Stubbs and Francisco, or Stubbs and Bailey/Woods for about one year of Rolen????

Have I fallen asleep and suddenly awoken at a time that we are contending?

We should be trading guys like Rolen instead of trading two top prospects for an aging vet.

I wasn't suggesting that's what we'd be trading: I was speculating about what they'd be asking. Remember we're supposedly asking them also to take half Rolen's salary. They're not going to do that for nothing. I've suggested it before but I do think a Francisco, Sutton, Stubbs package would make sense for both sides, we to get Rolen and half his salary. It frees us also to move EE elsewhere, either to LF or to somebody else.

PuffyPig
07-29-2009, 09:37 AM
I wasn't suggesting that's what we'd be trading: I was speculating about what they'd be asking. Remember we're supposedly asking them also to take half Rolen's salary. They're not going to do that for nothing. I've suggested it before but I do think a Francisco, Sutton, Stubbs package would make sense for both sides, we to get Rolen and half his salary. It frees us also to move EE elsewhere, either to LF or to somebody else.

Trading Stubbs and Francisco for even a half price Rolen makes zero sense to the Reds.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 09:40 AM
Trading Stubbs and Francisco for even a half price Rolen makes zero sense to the Reds.

You've been pretty obviously against the Reds trading promise for production. What would you argue the Reds should do? Remember: few teams are parting with prospects right now (and even fewer are parting with prospects for the garbage that the Reds are trying to palm off--Arroyo, etc).

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:43 AM
Trading Stubbs and Francisco for even a half price Rolen makes zero sense to the Reds.

I don't really view Stubbs or Francisco as a "top prospect." They might have that status right now, but I can't say that I see either one reaching their "ceiling."

I see Stubbs as Taveras with better range and Francisco as a Tony Batista type. I'd consider this deal, as long as the Jays pay half of Rolen's salary and there's another shoe to drop (a front-end starter and/or SS is brought in.)

Ltlabner
07-29-2009, 01:47 PM
Whats amazing to me is we keep hearing this rumor. Do the Reds really think they are 'that close' and bringing in a gimpy 30something player is going to cure all their ills?

Or are the going to get Rolen and then trade Weathers for a so-so AA prospect and try to sell the idea that they are going 'all in'.

The whole thing smacks of them being lost in fantesy land.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 01:52 PM
Whats amazing to me is we keep hearing this rumor. Do the Reds really think they are 'that close' and bringing in a gimpy 30something player is going to cure all their ills?

Or are the going to get Rolen and then trade Weathers for a so-so AA prospect and try to sell the idea that they are going 'all in'.

The whole thing smacks of them being lost in fantesy land.

I think getting Rolen for these rumored names isn't fantasy at all. I think it's understanding the market.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 01:56 PM
Whats amazing to me is we keep hearing this rumor. Do the Reds really think they are 'that close' and bringing in a gimpy 30something player is going to cure all their ills?

Or are the going to get Rolen and then trade Weathers for a so-so AA prospect and try to sell the idea that they are going 'all in'.

The whole thing smacks of them being lost in fantesy land.

He is Walt's buddy.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 02:39 PM
He is Walt's buddy.

He's also a plus-fielding / plus-hitting third baseman -- something this franchise doesn't have right now -- under contract for just 1 more year.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 02:43 PM
in 2007 Rolen's OPS was 730, in 2008 it was 780, this year it is 850.

Considering his injury history and age(will be 35) what would be the expectations?

IslandRed
07-29-2009, 02:45 PM
It's pretty clear to me that a Rolen deal would be primarily a move to solidify the position for next year, giving them freedom to use Encarnacion to solve another problem, be it as a left fielder or a trading chip.

This is the kind of deal I could be strongly in favor of or totally aghast that we made, all depending on the particulars.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 02:45 PM
in 2007 Rolen's OPS was 730, in 2008 it was 780, this year it is 850.

Considering his injury history and age(will be 35) what would be the expectations?

Facing National League (specifically NL Central) pitching and playing half his games in the GABP? Assuming he stays healthy, I'd say it's not out of line to expect at least an .820-.830 OPS.

Health is the primary concern. As long as he's healthy, he should be fairly productive, IMO.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:47 PM
in 2007 Rolen's OPS was 730, in 2008 it was 780, this year it is 850.

Considering his injury history and age(will be 35) what would be the expectations?

In the NL, against Central pitching in GAB, probably .850. With top of the heap defense.

That infield would be solidly demonic defensively (let's assume Janish for the sake of argument): Rolen, Janish, Phillips, Votto, and Hanigan. Assume Heisey/Stubbs in CF, Bruce (maybe) in RF. Get a masher in LF. They're all of a sudden on to something. Offensively, they're not that far away if they get Rolen.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 02:47 PM
in 2007 Rolen's OPS was 730, in 2008 it was 780, this year it is 850.

Considering his injury history and age(will be 35) what would be the expectations?

Well in Reds Front Office Logic

He went up 50 in 2008
He went up another 70 in 2009
In 2010 he will be up 90 more so he will OPS 940

:beerme:

flyer85
07-29-2009, 02:48 PM
He also only managed 112 and 115 games in 07 and 08. This year it looks like he will make it to 140+. What is more reasonable to expect in 2010?

BTW, if I was making a projection while assembling a team I wouldn't go any higher than 120 games and 780 OPS.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 02:54 PM
He also only managed 112 and 115 games in 07 and 08. This year it looks like he will make it to 140+. What is more reasonable to expect in 2010?

BTW, if I was making a projection while assembling a team I wouldn't go any higher than 120 games and 780 OPS.

You are underestimating the value of playing the game the right way, and veteran leadership. Calculating those two as well he may well OPS 1.000. I can just see that lineup now

Taveras
Janish
Votto
Rolen
Phillips
Bruce
Gomes
Hanigan

flyer85
07-29-2009, 02:55 PM
You are underestimating the value of playing the game the right way, and veteran leadership. Calculating those two as well he may well OPS 1.000.
Reds do seem to go for projecting the best case scenario

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2009, 03:03 PM
What value do you put on moving BPhil from the clean up spot?

And how much value do you put on having someone at least a little bit fearful behind Joey Votto in the lineup?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... me likey Rolen.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 03:07 PM
What value do you put on moving BPhil from the clean up spot?

And how much value do you put on having someone at least a little bit fearful behind Joey Votto in the lineup?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... me likey Rolen.

Phillips is likely a better option than Rolen. Much more power at this point.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 03:08 PM
In the NL, against Central pitching in GAB, probably .850. With top of the heap defense.

That infield would be solidly demonic defensively (let's assume Janish for the sake of argument): Rolen, Janish, Phillips, Votto, and Hanigan. Assume Heisey/Stubbs in CF, Bruce (maybe) in RF. Get a masher in LF. They're all of a sudden on to something. Offensively, they're not that far away if they get Rolen.

This right here is exactly why the team is (correctly) kicking the tires to see if they can pry Scott Rolen loose on the cheap.

Rolen is a legitimate #5 hitter than can provide additional protection for Votto/Phillips/ whatever masher they bring in to play LF.

dsmith421
07-29-2009, 03:12 PM
That infield would be solidly demonic defensively (let's assume Janish for the sake of argument): Rolen, Janish, Phillips, Votto, and Hanigan. Assume Heisey/Stubbs in CF, Bruce (maybe) in RF. Get a masher in LF. They're all of a sudden on to something. Offensively, they're not that far away if they get Rolen.

The problem is getting a masher for LF while addressing the obvious problems with the starting rotation, and doing this with no payroll flexibility whatsoever given Rolen's sizable contract and the money flushed down the toilet on below average talent like Arroyo and Taveras. Also it assumes that Bruce's offseason surgery to remove his head from his hindquarters is successful.

But hey, it's something.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 03:14 PM
The problem is getting a masher for LF while addressing the obvious problems with the starting rotation, and doing this with no payroll flexibility whatsoever given Rolen's sizable contract and the money flushed down the toilet on below average talent like Arroyo and Taveras. Also it assumes that Bruce's offseason surgery to remove his head from his hindquarters is successful.

But hey, it's something.

I am posting a sunny scenario, and you don't have to convince me that fixing water on the knee (the offense) isn't as important as removing the brain tumor (rotation) it has, but one thing at a time I guess.

On a related note, it appears with the recent dumpster-diving, a big move for pitching isn't happening at the deadline.

dsmith421
07-29-2009, 03:21 PM
On a related note, it appears with the recent dumpster-diving, a big move for pitching isn't happening at the deadline.

Given the way the Castellini Reds have done business, especially since Jocketty's appointment, any sort of "big move" was highly unlikely.

I could see us dumping Arroyo plus cash on someone but that's it. Hell, Nick Swisher made a horse's patoot of himself in front of the Steinbrenners in TB last night, maybe ask about him.

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2009, 03:48 PM
The problem is getting a masher for LF while addressing the obvious problems with the starting rotation, and doing this with no payroll flexibility whatsoever given Rolen's sizable contract and the money flushed down the toilet on below average talent like Arroyo and Taveras. Also it assumes that Bruce's offseason surgery to remove his head from his hindquarters is successful.

But hey, it's something.

For the sake of using actual numbers (always, according to Cot's) and assumgin Reds don't pick up any options...

Reds 2010 payroll with Edwin: 56.5
Reds 2010 payroll with Rolen (and not Edwin): 62.75

Maybe you stick with Janish's glove at SS. And a whole lot of league minimum salaries for the rest of the team. That means there could be $6-10 to spend on a left field free agent and still be in the $75 to $80 payroll range.

Just saying: even if they don't unload an Arroyo or Harang contract but still acquire Rolen, there is *some* money to play with. How's it's spent... well... there we're in a little gray area.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Given the way the Castellini Reds have done business, especially since Jocketty's appointment, any sort of "big move" was highly unlikely.those only happen down the hall at the first door on the right.

Hoosier Red
07-29-2009, 05:11 PM
I think its important to remember that the deadline for acquiring Scott Rolen isn't July 31, heck it really doesn't even matter if he's acquired by August 31(Post-Season deadline.)

Also, the Reds should be able to shed Arroyo's payroll onto a contender if the contender is agreeable. I doubt anyone's going to claim him off waivers if they're trying to make a trade.

Raisor
07-30-2009, 02:02 PM
mlbtraderumors.com


12:34pm: No mention of Alonso from him, but Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun tweets, "Looks like Rolen to Reds has a 'good chance' of getting done."

12:20pm: Joe McDonald of the Providence Journal says the Reds and Jays are talking about a Rolen-Yonder Alonso swap. Say what?

BRM
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Unreal.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:06 PM
Unreal.

As flyer said, anyone can say anything. Alonso being involved is no more or less true than there even being discussions for Rolen. It's all phantom till the documents get signed.

I doubt the deal gets done.

BRM
07-30-2009, 02:08 PM
Good point FCB.

lollipopcurve
07-30-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm back on the Rolen bandwagon. But I can't believe they'd include Alonso if it's just Rolen coming back. It appears the Jays need to cut costs, so there's no way the Reds eat salary and have to give up an elite prospect. Is there?

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 02:10 PM
How come the cincy writers/media have absolutely no sources?

Roy Tucker
07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
I can see giving up EE plus chaff for Rolen. Defense and leadership and professionalism does count some.

But why in heaven's name would they give up Alonso?

Walt, no.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:15 PM
How come the cincy writers/media have absolutely no sources?

Sources are only as good as the people feeding the information want them to be.

It was mentioned in another thread, but I think some general managers are shrewdly using other media outlets to get out what they want. Putting Alonso's name out in the open could be a leveraging tactic to drive up the price.

Stormy
07-30-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm back on the Rolen bandwagon. But I can't believe they'd include Alonso if it's just Rolen coming back. It appears the Jays need to cut costs, so there's no way the Reds eat salary and have to give up an elite prospect. Is there?

I can't fathom the rationale behind a Scott Rolen bandwagon. He'll be 35 opening day of next season, and he's spent a very significant amount of time on the DL in 3 of his last 4 full MLB seasons. Meanwhile, this season is only the 2nd time in the past 5 years that he's managed an OPS over .780, so even on those rare occasions when he's healthy for a full season, production isn't guaranteed. And that's going to improve with age? Likewkise, we'll be paying $11 million for his services, which expire in 2010, despite the fact that this team has no chance in Hades of contending in 2010.

If we had shed all our cumbersome contracts, had addressed the major outstanding needs at SP, SS, LF, had seen all of youngsters trending towards major production upswings, and had a nice haul from the farm knocking down the door... THEN it might have been the time to enjoy a 1 year rental of Rolen in a gesture of going for it. But we've accomplished NONE of the above. Rolen is a great fit for a lot of teams for the professionalism, leadership, production that he brings, but the 2009/2010 Reds would not appear to be one of them.

Jocketty has no overarching plan, and seemingly no new innovative ideas, so this smacks of a safety retreat into the familiarity of acquiring an old resource that helped change his team's fortunes in the past. Only it's 7 years late, and we're not the Cardinals.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:23 PM
I can't fathom the rationale behind a Scott Rolen bandwagon. He'll be 35 opening day of next season, and he's spent a very significant amount of time on the DL in 3 of his last 4 full MLB seasons. Meanwhile, this season is only the 2nd time in the past 5 years that he's managed an OPS over .780, so even on those rare occasions when he's healthy for a full season, production isn't guaranteed. And that's going to improve with age? Likewkise, we'll be paying $11 million for his services, which expire in 2010, despite the fact that this team has no chance in Hades of contending in 2010.

If we had shed all our cumbersome contracts, had addressed the major outstanding needs at SP, SS, LF, had seen all of youngsters trending towards major production upswings, and had a nice haul from the farm knocking down the door... THEN it might have been the time to enjoy a 1 year rental of Rolen in a gesture of going for it. But we've accomplished NONE of the above. Rolen is a great fit for a lot of teams for the professionalism, leadership, production that he brings, but the 2009/2010 Reds would not appear to be one of them.

I'm starting to come around on this opinion. This team literally needs improvement out of 70% of its 25 man roster. That won't be accomplished next year or in two or three years. That's a five year mission at least, be it Beane, Jocketty, Gillick, or DePodesta.

This team is MLB's worst. Its immediate future is as bad as the Royals and the Nats.

Edd Roush
07-30-2009, 02:24 PM
I was on the Scott Rolen bandwagon until I heard the price was Alonso. If Alonso is going there, I want a piece of Halladay or Scutaro or one of their top prospects. Or if it is straight up, we better be able to provide them speed off the bench in the form of Willy Taveras.

I like the concept of Alonso as trade bait, but I always imagined him getting traded for the shortstop of the future.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 02:26 PM
A source would not deny that the Jays are talking to the Reds about a Rolen trade. That usually means something's cooking...

http://twitter.com/MLBastian/status/2934866512

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:27 PM
I was on the Scott Rolen bandwagon until I heard the price was Alonso. If Alonso is going there, I want a piece of Halladay or Scutaro or one of their top prospects. Or if it is straight up, we better be able to provide them speed off the bench in the form of Willy Taveras.

I like the concept of Alonso as trade bait, but I always imagined him getting traded for the shortstop of the future.

I don't believe for a second the price is Alonso. If it were, it would be as part of a bigger deal or would mean the Reds had something else cooking. Otherwise, I pass the Alonso thing off as nothing more than typical rumoring that happens 24 hours before the deadline.

I've vowed to give Walt Jocketty a chance. But I cannot fathom he would ever make that deal. And if he did (does), shame on him.

No worries for me though. I don't have the slightest belief there's truth to this 1-for-1 deal.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:27 PM
A source would not deny that the Jays are talking to the Reds about a Rolen trade. That usually means something's cooking...

http://twitter.com/MLBastian/status/2934866512

Usually when it gets to the point of being universally admitted there's serious talks, it winds up happening.

Edd Roush
07-30-2009, 02:29 PM
I don't believe for a second the price is Alonso. If it were, it would be as part of a bigger deal or would mean the Reds had something else cooking. Otherwise, I pass the Alonso thing off as nothing more than typical rumoring that happens 24 hours before the deadline.

I've vowed to give Walt Jocketty a chance. But I cannot fathom he would ever make that deal. And if he did (does), shame on him.

No worries for me though. I don't have the slightest belief there's truth to this 1-for-1 deal.

Let's hope you are right. I would have a hard time supporting WJ if he trades arguably our best minor league hitter for a 34 year old 3b. Again, I like Rolen, just he is not close to worth Alonso especially if the Reds have to pay Rolen $10 mil next year.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 02:30 PM
I'm starting to come around on this opinion. This team literally needs improvement out of 70% of its 25 man roster. That won't be accomplished next year or in two or three years. That's a five year mission at least, be it Beane, Jocketty, Gillick, or DePodesta.

Five years? No. Two years? Maybe.


This team is MLB's worst. Its immediate future is as bad as the Royals and the Nats.

Hyperbole strikes again.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:30 PM
Let's hope you are right. I would have a hard time supporting WJ if he trades arguably our best minor league hitter for a 34 year old 3b. Again, I like Rolen, just he is not close to worth Alonso especially if the Reds have to pay Rolen $10 mil next year.

I agree 100 percent. I think Rolen would be a good acquisition. And I'm not totally opposed to trading Yonder in the right deal. But these two things do not mix as positioned.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:33 PM
Hyperbole strikes again.

How does one replace what needs to be replaced in two years? This team is a disaster from top to bottom. As has been discussed, there are 6-7 keepable or worthy players on the 25 man.

And even if you're really bullish on the minor leaguers, it certainly takes two or three years for most to produce at a competitive or contending level.

Stormy
07-30-2009, 02:33 PM
I'm starting to come around on this opinion. This team literally needs improvement out of 70% of its 25 man roster. That won't be accomplished next year or in two or three years. That's a five year mission at least, be it Beane, Jocketty, Gillick, or DePodesta.

This team is MLB's worst. Its immediate future is as bad as the Royals and the Nats.

Yes. I'd say that Votto, Phillips, EdE*, Bruce*, Cueto and Volquez*, and 2-3 bullpen arms, combine to form the nucleus of a slightly below average NL team (and even many of the keys to the young core have major question marks around them, denoted by *). This is further compounded by the fact that the remaining 2/3 of the roster is mostly comprised by absolute dreck, and a few solid role players.

So, even with optimal returns to health, and ideal progress from the farm, you're looking at the need to replace a majority of the roster, and in some cases replace them with major impact players (SP, SS, LF etc...). That's not happening on a quick timetable. Let's not make short-sighted trades, as though it were. The only thing that could change this would be the pie-in-the-sky scenario of major talent infusion via blockbuster trade, but I don't think we have the will or the fortitude for that.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Yes. I'd say that Votto, Phillips, EdE*, Bruce*, Cueto and Volquez*, and 2-3 bullpen arms, combine to form the nucleus of a slightly below average NL team (and even many of the keys to the young core have major question marks around them, denoted by *). This is further compounded by the fact that the remaining 2/3 of the roster is mostly comprised by absolute dreck, and a few solid role players.

So, even with optimal returns to health, and ideal progress from the farm, you're looking at the need to replace a majority of the roster, and in some cases replace them with major impact players (SP, SS, LF etc...). That's not happening on a quick timetable. Let's not make short-sighted trades, as though it were. The only thing that could change this would be the pie-in-the-sky scenario of major talent infusion via blockbuster trade, but I don't think we have the will or the fortitude for that.


I'd almost certainly dump EdE from the list. He's athletic laudanum.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 02:39 PM
How does one replace what needs to be replaced in two years? This team is a disaster from top to bottom. As has been discussed, there are 6-7 keepable or worthy players on the 25 man.

And even if you're really bullish on the minor leaguers, it certainly takes two or three years for most to produce at a competitive or contending level.

You answered your own question.

The Reds have a lot of perceived talent in the minor leagues. Things can turn around fast if you have a GM willing to pull the trigger.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 02:40 PM
Reds Talks Stalling

Kenny Ken Ken and Pope John Paul Morosi are quoting a source describing the Scott Rolen talks between the Jays and Reds as "Going nowhere. Stuck. Impasse."

I assume that's a word for word quote of a txt message. I wonder if the punctuation is right.


http://www.drunkjaysfans.com/

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Alonso for Rolen? Well, I've already done quite a bit of laughing this season so I guess I might as well laugh some more.

I actually like Scott Rolen too. I think he's been an underrated player most of his career, and I think he's got a pretty darn good case for the Hall of Fame. But he's getting up there in age and has been missing a good chunk of time to injury, and like Stormy said, this team has far too many problems for a Scott Rolen to fix. At this point in his career, Rolen is moreso a guy to use as a finishing touch, not help the foundation.

Then again, the Reds could have just drafted Gordon Beckham last year instead of Alonso and all of this would be a moot/already solved problem.

RedsBaron
07-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Let's hope you are right. I would have a hard time supporting WJ if he trades arguably our best minor league hitter for a 34 year old 3b. Again, I like Rolen, just he is not close to worth Alonso especially if the Reds have to pay Rolen $10 mil next year.

You don't rebuild with 34 year old players with a history of not being healthy. Rolen could be useful, but not for Alonso.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:42 PM
Heck, this is a monumental waste of time chasing Rolen. Even if they get him for free.

Stormy
07-30-2009, 02:43 PM
I'd almost certainly dump EdE from the list. He's athletic laudanum.

True. He's just a guy who has shown some production, still at a fairly young age. He doesn't really fit here though, in any meaningful capacity. I'd still hold him until next year to see if you can't sell him high when he's hitting .275 with an 800+OPS, rather than at the lowest value of his career. You're right that he's more in the category of replacement, than foundation. There's not much foundation to go around though.

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2009, 02:43 PM
FoxSports.com -


Reds, Rolen talks 'going nowhere' — 2:25 p.m.

The Reds' talks with the Blue Jays about third baseman Scott Rolen have failed to progress.

Asked to characterize the negotiations, one source said, "Going nowhere. Stuck. Impasse."

The impasse could break if the Jays trade Roy Halladay. At that point, they would concede the 2010 season and likely move Rolen and other veterans.

Maybe because they wanted Yonder Alonso! That is a step in the wrong direction even if Alonso was drafted just to use as trade bait. Scott Rolen is not the targeted player I would be dealing a number 1 draft choice for.

lollipopcurve
07-30-2009, 02:43 PM
two financially challenged franchises trying to work a deal where only 1 big contract moves -- these days, that's a tough one to execute -- Reds do have the leverage, though

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Heck, this is a monumental waste of time chasing Rolen. Even if they get him for free.

You could at least show some consistency within the thread:



That infield would be solidly demonic defensively (let's assume Janish for the sake of argument): Rolen, Janish, Phillips, Votto, and Hanigan. Assume Heisey/Stubbs in CF, Bruce (maybe) in RF. Get a masher in LF. They're all of a sudden on to something. Offensively, they're not that far away if they get Rolen.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:49 PM
You could at least show some consistency within the thread:

Stormy's changed my opinion, as I've said upthread. Foolish consistency and all that....

When the facts change, my conclusions change... blah blah.

The Reds have to replace 4/5th of a rotation, 3/5th at best. They're not contending for years, even if they turn around the offense quickly (which they still can).

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2009, 02:49 PM
And for the record, I think Yonder Alonso will be gone before he hits the bigs.

His only position is 1b, and there is no way, no how the Reds are going to touch anything about Joey Votto as long he's performing at the level he currently is.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:51 PM
Stormy's changed my opinion, as I've said upthread. Foolish consistency and all that....

When the facts change, my conclusions change... blah blah.

A broken clock is right two times a day.

Though I do sometimes agree with your (assertive) opinions, (perhaps it's the broken clock analogy), I sure would love to see a data point set of your statements on various subjects. Those dots would be all over the grid. And I say that more in an entertainment sort of way, than anything negative. Your opinions most certainly do fascinate me.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:54 PM
A broken clock is right two times a day.

Though I do sometimes agree with your (assertive) opinions, (perhaps it's the broken clock analogy), I sure would love to see a data point set of your statements on various subjects. Those dots would be all over the grid. And I say that more in an entertainment sort of way, than anything negative. Your opinions most certainly do fascinate me.

Data point set. :laugh:

I'd say where it merits, my opinions are blindingly consistent. When the facts change, my opinions generally do as well.

I'd say that, despite the extremity of opinion that some folks perceive, that's usually far more reasonable than not.

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 02:54 PM
And for the record, I think Yonder Alonso will be gone before he hits the bigs.

His only position is 1b, and there is no way, no how the Reds are going to touch anything about Joey Votto as long he's performing at the level he currently is.

I think you're right that Alonso will be gone before ever wearing a Reds uniform, and I think he should be ... unless, of course, the Reds want to teach him left field, and I don't think I'd want to witness that.

But at the same time, and most people agree with this (you probably do too), the Reds need to use Alonso for a better target than Rolen.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Data point set. :laugh:

I'd say where it merits, my opinions are blindingly consistent. When the facts change, my opinions generally do as well.

I'd say that, despite the extremity of opinion that some folks perceive, that's usually far more reasonable than not.

There's a subtle genius to the weather patterns of your ways :thumbup:

HokieRed
07-30-2009, 03:01 PM
At the risk of being proven wrong later this afternoon by a deal or something, I'll risk the opinion that Yonder Alonso will play for the Reds, will move Joey Votto to LF (or perhaps to RF if he can play that). I think Alonso will prove too valuable not to play. On the matter of FCB's switching gears, I've got no problem with that. It's certainly not clear that we should be looking at Rolen, though I've generally thought we should--and still do, given the right deal. But pursuing Rolen really only makes sense if you think we have some--even the smallest--window of opportunity to contend in 2010. What's being crushed out of us now is even that small hope and so assessments about players to be dealt for and dealt are in flux. The case for Rolen would still, however, be, to use FCB's terms, that he would give us a third "major league player"--i.e. somebody who could actually play his position and be an above average regular (I count Votto and Phillips as the other two, hoping of course for Bruce too but recognizing he's not yet established that status for himself.)

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 03:05 PM
2:00pm: CBSSports' Danny Knobler says the Jays would get Edwin Encarnacion and others, if this does get done. The sticking point appears to be how much of Rolen's remaining $15MM the Jays would assume.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

BRM
07-30-2009, 03:06 PM
I'd love to hear who the "others" are.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2009, 03:06 PM
This is as update from 10 minutes ago from Fox Sports:


The Reds' talks with the Blue Jays about third baseman Scott Rolen have failed to progress.

Asked to characterize the negotiations, one source said, "Going nowhere. Stuck. Impasse."

The impasse could break if the Jays trade Roy Halladay. At that point, they would concede the 2010 season and likely move Rolen and other veterans.

Another source says the chances of Rolen going to the Reds are "50-50," adding, "Not dead."

Brutus
07-30-2009, 03:07 PM
AJ Bastian, a Blue Jays' beat writer, tweets that "all is quiet." And also says "don't believe other reports you hear right now."

FWIW.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:07 PM
I tell you what, Walt apparently still has the goo for Rolen much in the same way he went after Nate's favorite player, Willy T.

If they put it together, I hope it works out better than the Willy move. I doubt it, but here's to hope right?

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 03:07 PM
I'd love to hear who the "others" are.

Yea, the "others" is the most interesting word in that entire snippet.

BRM
07-30-2009, 03:08 PM
Ltlabner is a negative nilly.

HokieRed
07-30-2009, 03:09 PM
I'm relieved to hear that EE's involved as I can't imagine the "others" then refers to Alonso. "The others"--identity and number--probably has to do with the dollars.

indy_dave00
07-30-2009, 03:09 PM
Joey Votto played LF for team Canada , he played it 5 games when he was first recalled from Louisville and played it some at Louisville its not a foreign position to him.

Yonder Alonso can not be technically traded till the middle of Aug. 1 year from his signing with the Reds.

If Walt is stupid enough to even consider a 1 for 1 Rolen/ Alonso trade he should be fired on the spot. This is a 34 year old version of Rolen not the All Star version who played for the Phillies.

smith288
07-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Yea, the "others" is the most interesting word in that entire snippet.
Ill guess Roenike as one just to take a stab at it.

Redmachine2003
07-30-2009, 03:18 PM
After the Dead line I would move Votto to LF for the rest of the season and move Phillips to SS. Give Fraizer a shot a 2nd and have 1st ready for Alonso next year.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 03:28 PM
Before I die, I'd love to get an inside look into real, live, actual trade discussions leading up to the deadline, and then take a look at what is being simultaneously reported about such discussions. I'd imagine the two versions would be nearly unrecognizable from one another.

I'm beginning to feel like it might actually be worth taking a 24 hour nap from baseball right about now, and coming back tomorrow to see what actually transpired...













but of course I won't.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:36 PM
Ltlabner is a negative nilly.

Hey dude, I said there's always "hope". That's pretty sunshine isn't it?

BRM
07-30-2009, 03:37 PM
Yeah, that's you in a nutshell. A man of hope. All sunshine and roses.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:38 PM
Yeah, that's you in a nutshell. A man of hope.

I always thought of myself as a true men of genius, but I guess hope is pretty trendy these days.

BRM
07-30-2009, 03:39 PM
I always thought of myself as a true men of genius, but I guess hope is pretty trendy these days.

You and Dan O'Brien. Two peas in a pod.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:41 PM
You and Dan O'Brien. Two peas in a pod.

You should see my binders!

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 03:41 PM
I always thought of myself as a true men of genius, but I guess hope is pretty trendy these days.

Or are you a real men of genius?

youtube.com /watch?v=ZHNt9rXSsTM

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=Benihana;1934849]Before I die, I'd love to get an inside look into real, live, actual trade discussions leading up to the deadline, and then take a look at what is being simultaneously reported about such discussions. I'd imagine the two versions would be nearly unrecognizable from one another.

I'm beginning to feel like it might actually be worth taking a 24 hour nap from baseball right about now, and coming back tomorrow to see what actually transpired...



Tracy Ringolsby wrote a great book in the 80's about a winter meetings. I wish I could remember the name if it. He followed the Braves team around as they discussed deal after deal. It was a real good, intimate look inside how these things work.

I read it twenty years ago, so I can't remember many details, except most of the talk was around Jeff Blauser. Every team wanted him from the Braves.

But from what I can remember, you are very correct that what gets reported was very different from what was actually being discussed. I believe the GM's even joked about some crazy reports a few times.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:44 PM
Or are you a real men of genius?

And if there's gravy, well then everything is going to be ok..... :laugh:

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 03:45 PM
And if there's gravy, well then everything is going to be ok.....

I only wish that whoever posted that commercial hadn't disabled the embed...

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I only wish that whoever posted that commercial hadn't disabled the embed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYInUvLalQ&feature=related

Totally unrelated to baseball but in some ways this season seems like Walt floated one and left us in the fart cloud.

redsfan4445
07-30-2009, 05:35 PM
Reds Back Off Rolen Deal
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 4:13pm CST]
4:13pm: ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Reds "backed off a potential deal" for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there's the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 06:07 PM
Reds Back Off Rolen Deal
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 4:13pm CST]
4:13pm: ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Reds "backed off a potential deal" for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there's the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.

I'm still betting it happens. Sounds like posturing to me. Jocketty is like Boras. He likes to wait to the last possible moment hoping to get the best deal possible.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 06:09 PM
I'm still betting it happens. Sounds like posturing to me. Jocketty is like Boras. He likes to wait to the last possible moment hoping to get the best deal possible.

It would be the peak of pointlessness.