PDA

View Full Version : Gammons: Reds Want to Move Harang or Arroyo



reds44
07-25-2009, 09:11 PM
One GM says "Cincinnati wants to move a few contracts, like either Bronson Arroyo or Aaron Harang, but we're not interested in giving players or taking on their money. Harang hasn't been the same guy since last May." Harang has a 4.99 ERA since a 63-pitch relief appearance on May 25th of last season.

MLBTR

redsfandan
07-25-2009, 09:17 PM
Which is why Arroyo may interest teams more. I just wouldn't ask too much for him.

Highlifeman21
07-25-2009, 09:22 PM
I think it should be Reds NEED to move Arroyo, might want to move Harang.

BCubb2003
07-25-2009, 09:33 PM
It's time for the "unnamed baseball executives put down another team's players" stories again.

Stormy
07-25-2009, 10:08 PM
MLBTR

Gee, what could have happened around May 25th, 2008?

Team Clark
07-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Gee, what could have happened around May 25th, 2008?

I love how they put that in there. That outing has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with Harang's mechanics being off. They were off before that and he's still not finishing his pitches. Sad to watch because the adjustments are so simple.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2009, 10:45 PM
Harang's velocity vacillates. That's what suggests it's mechanical and not injury-related.

Strikes Out Looking
07-25-2009, 10:51 PM
Maybe the Reds should move Dick Pole first and then find a pitching coach.

VR
07-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Maybe the Reds should move Dick Pole first and then find a pitching coach.

We may have a winner

Joseph
07-25-2009, 11:14 PM
Harang's velocity vacillates. That's what suggests it's mechanical and not injury-related.

Considering what we saw yesterday when he really 'needed' more he was able to reach back and get it to get some strikeouts I'd have to agree.

Where is that on a consistent basis?

BCubb2003
07-25-2009, 11:14 PM
I'd like to see some sabremetrics on pitching coaches. What's a replacement level pitching coach? What do we measure?

Raisor
07-25-2009, 11:25 PM
I'd like to see some sabremetrics on pitching coaches. What's a replacement level pitching coach? What do we measure?

S/HR

where S=Scratching and HR=Hour.

So, Dick Pole, who scratches himself about 43 times in a 3 hour game would have a S/HR of 14.33 or 4.78 S per Inning..

Highlifeman21
07-25-2009, 11:30 PM
S/HR

where S=Scratching and HR=Hour.

So, Dick Pole, who scratches himself about 43 times in a 3 hour game would have a S/HR of 14.33 or 4.78 S per Inning..

Does that count both halves of innings?

... b/c if so, then he's less than a scratch per out, which means he definitely needs to pick up the pace...

CTA513
07-25-2009, 11:44 PM
Considering what we saw yesterday when he really 'needed' more he was able to reach back and get it to get some strikeouts I'd have to agree.

Where is that on a consistent basis?

I don't know but I wish he would bring his good slider on a more consistent basis.

Stormy
07-25-2009, 11:48 PM
I don't know but I wish he would bring his good slider on a more consistent basis.

Harang's days of throwing his elite, out pitch, slider are gone. That absence has been every bit as much a factor in his decline as inconsistent velocity, mechanical issues, and decrease in his fine point control. He's still a workhorse, but he no longer has that explosive aspect to his arsenal, and that's not mechanical.

alexad
07-26-2009, 12:16 AM
Did Gammons just wake up or has he been living in a time machine? I think everybody in baseball has known the Reds have been dangling Bronson and Harang. How many scouts were in town last weekend before they headed West.

I think Gammons thought "Hey the Reds fans are complete idiots, I bet they did not know they are trying to get rid of Harang and Arroyo.

Give me some news we did not already know about.

KoryMac5
07-26-2009, 12:52 AM
Harang's days of throwing his elite, out pitch, slider are gone. That absence has been every bit as much a factor in his decline as inconsistent velocity, mechanical issues, and decrease in his fine point control. He's still a workhorse, but he no longer has that explosive aspect to his arsenal, and that's not mechanical.

I think we can thank Dick Pole for that, he has been trying to get Harang to throw more ground balls. Thus turning him into something very medicore along the way.

redsfandan
07-26-2009, 02:32 AM
So when is the contract up for our wonderful pitching coach?

Matt700wlw
07-26-2009, 03:39 AM
Gammons...he's the guru of breaking news, isn't he?

Move 'em...I don't care anymore.


Until this organization realizes that winning involves NOT listening to the talk show hosts or fans that call them programs, the cycle will continue.

:)

KronoRed
07-26-2009, 04:20 AM
So when is the contract up for our wonderful pitching coach?

Does it matter? He's been with Dusty for a long time.

TheNext44
07-26-2009, 05:00 AM
I love how they put that in there. That outing has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with Harang's mechanics being off. They were off before that and he's still not finishing his pitches. Sad to watch because the adjustments are so simple.

Very correct sir. What people don't mention when mentioning that date, is that Harang was in a funk before then. For the five starts before his relief performance, Harang had these numbers:

2-3 4.45 ERA 1.52 WHIP and 1.4 HR/9

Before then they were:

68-55 4.01 ERA 1.29 WHIP and 1.1 HR/9

Something happened to Harang a month before that appearance, and he hasn't been the same since. Maybe the relief appearance made things worse, but it was not what caused Harang's decline.

One thing to note, Harang's K and BB totals have remained very constant throughout it all. He just has been giving up more hits and more homers. To me that just sounds like hitters have adjusted to him, and he has not adjusted back. Or he was getting lucky for a few years, and now things are evening out. But nothing points to him being hurt.

GAC
07-26-2009, 06:55 AM
If they move these two guys, and I'm not in any disagreement, who does this FO have as replacements? Ya got to have a plan don't you? Maybe not.

You got Cueto, EV, and Owings left. Homer? Hasn't risen to the hype. Not saying, hypothetically, that's not something you can't build on; but they are going to have to soend the mone for replacements (I hope).

But then, when I look at the position players, there ain't much there to move, or that most teams desire.

thatcoolguy_22
07-26-2009, 07:11 AM
If they move these two guys, and I'm not in any disagreement, who does this FO have as replacements? Ya got to have a plan don't you? Maybe not.

You got Cueto, EV, and Owings left. Homer? Hasn't risen to the hype. Not saying, hypothetically, that's not something you can't build on; but they are going to have to soend the mone for replacements (I hope).

But then, when I look at the position players, there ain't much there to move, or that most teams desire.

Maybe "the minor league depth" will amount to more than Adam Rosales? :dunno:

Cueto, EV, blank, Owings, Homer.

With the payroll flex here is a list of some potential FA

3B Adrian Beltre
OF Xavier Nady
OF Jason Bay
OF Jason Werth
P Josh Beckett
P Brandon Webb
P Rich Haden
P Cliff Lee
P Erik Bedard
P John Lackey

Just some of the bigger names

Free Agent List (http://major-league-baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/2010_mlb_free_agents)


1. Create Flex
2. Ruin Flex with FA spending Spree
3. Have a 3 year window with more talent coming


I just want to see a championship caliber team in my lifetime.

_Sir_Charles_
07-26-2009, 01:05 PM
I love how they put that in there. That outing has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with Harang's mechanics being off. They were off before that and he's still not finishing his pitches. Sad to watch because the adjustments are so simple.

THANK YOU! I'm so sick of hearing about how that SD outing screwed him up. It's BS. Plain and simple. He was out of whack well before then. He's had good outting here and there before & after, but they're much more rare than they used to be.

Reds4Life
07-26-2009, 01:10 PM
If they move these two guys, and I'm not in any disagreement, who does this FO have as replacements? Ya got to have a plan don't you? Maybe not.

You got Cueto, EV, and Owings left. Homer? Hasn't risen to the hype. Not saying, hypothetically, that's not something you can't build on; but they are going to have to soend the mone for replacements (I hope).

But then, when I look at the position players, there ain't much there to move, or that most teams desire.

Unlike most, I'm not ready to give up on Homer yet. He is still very young, with plenty of potential. I think a new pitching coach (aside from helping Harang and others) could do Homer a WORLD of good.

Kc61
07-26-2009, 01:12 PM
THANK YOU! I'm so sick of hearing about how that SD outing screwed him up. It's BS. Plain and simple. He was out of whack well before then. He's had good outting here and there before & after, but they're much more rare than they used to be.

Somebody in the press recently suggested that Harang's current problems are the result of the rain delay game when he resumed pitching to two batters after the long delay and then departed.

It's really just certain patterns of baseball criticism. When fans or the press decides somebody is no good they just like to keep the theme alive -- sometimes not really focusing on the particulars of the situation.

In this case, of course, it is consistent with the "theme" to blame Dusty Baker for all ills on the Reds. And while Baker probably did deserve some blame for using Harang in relief in San Diego -- on balance it probably was the incorrect decision -- it strikes me as ludicrous to suggest that that outing is to blame for Harang's performance over a year later.

nate
07-26-2009, 01:16 PM
THANK YOU! I'm so sick of hearing about how that SD outing screwed him up. It's BS. Plain and simple. He was out of whack well before then. He's had good outting here and there before & after, but they're much more rare than they used to be.

I'm not so sure it's BS. At least, I'm very sure it's not perceived (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/gammons-latest-duke-halladay-reds-rays.html) as BS.


One GM says "Cincinnati wants to move a few contracts, like either Bronson Arroyo or Aaron Harang, but we're not interested in giving players or taking on their money. Harang hasn't been the same guy since last May." Harang has a 4.99 ERA since a 63-pitch relief appearance on May 25th of last season.I guess it depends on how much one thinks of what Peter Gammons says.

Brutus
07-26-2009, 02:17 PM
I'm not so sure it's BS. At least, I'm very sure it's not perceived (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/gammons-latest-duke-halladay-reds-rays.html) as BS.

I guess it depends on how much one thinks of what Peter Gammons says.

All that says is last May. That does not say it had anything to do with San Diego. As others pointed out, he made some not-so-good starts in May before that relief appearance.

Falls City Beer
07-26-2009, 02:19 PM
As others pointed out, he made some not-so-good starts in May before that relief appearance.

I've tried that bit of factual, forensic argumentation before. Doesn't set well with the narrative that's been constructed around the "event." Correlation is nearly always causation around here.

OldXOhio
07-26-2009, 02:21 PM
Did Gammons just wake up or has he been living in a time machine? I think everybody in baseball has known the Reds have been dangling Bronson and Harang. How many scouts were in town last weekend before they headed West.

I think Gammons thought "Hey the Reds fans are complete idiots, I bet they did not know they are trying to get rid of Harang and Arroyo.

Give me some news we did not already know about.

Not that I'm a fan, but Gammons doesn't necessarily concern himself with news on teams that the majority don't care about. The Reds fall in that category.

Scrap Irony
07-26-2009, 02:24 PM
1. Create Flex
2. Ruin Flex with FA spending Spree
3. Have a 3 year window with more talent coming

Good plan. It's a bumper crop of free agents for teams that need good pitching and good OF play. If you're willing to pay. The Yankees are likely not to make a big deal, as they have only a need for a LF. LA may need a starter. Boston needs a catcher and perhaps a LF. Beyond that, you've got people to pick from.

I hope that's the route Jocketty decides/ has decided.

nate
07-26-2009, 02:28 PM
All that says is last May. That does not say it had anything to do with San Diego. As others pointed out, he made some not-so-good starts in May before that relief appearance.


Harang has a 4.99 ERA since a 63-pitch relief appearance on May 25th of last season.

Brutus
07-26-2009, 02:34 PM
C'mon...

Take a look at Fan Graphs. The average speed of Harang's fastball was on the decline for four straight seasons, bottoming out last season. He lost more than an a MPH average in that time. His slider lost a MPH decline over three seasons.

This year, they're back up from last year, but only at 2007 levels - still lower than any season in his career.

Scouts have said he does not have the same stuff any more. That San Diego debacle may have contributed to his extremely poor performance, but it sure didn't cause it.

nate
07-26-2009, 02:39 PM
Take a look at Fan Graphs. The average speed of Harang's fastball was on the decline for four straight seasons, bottoming out last season. He lost more than an a MPH average in that time. His slider lost a MPH decline over three seasons.

This year, they're back up from last year, but only at 2007 levels - still lower than any season in his career.

Scouts have said he does not have the same stuff any more. That San Diego debacle may have contributed to his extremely poor performance, but it sure didn't cause it.

I'm not talking about the reason, I'm talking about the perception.

westofyou
07-26-2009, 02:43 PM
Attrition is a mean taskmaster. The SD game is a data point, that's a valid concern. But the guys career is bigger than that appearance, take his 2007 season, he was horse:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2007/Kharaa0010072007.htm

Narron rode him Pete M rode him, he was a stud. He had a good April in 2008 but he's been prone to poor stretches more since that SD game, but that was just one game.

Folks always talk about the abuse that Zambrano must have due to work load



NL
CAREER
2004-2008

GAMES STARTED >= 100

BATTERS FACED BFP GS
1 Brandon Webb 4745 169
2 Roy Oswalt 4653 166
3 Carlos Zambrano 4434 161
4 Aaron Harang 4332 158
5 Greg Maddux 4304 169
6 Doug Davis 4242 162
7 Jason Marquis 4196 158
8 Jeff Suppan 4181 160
9 Livan Hernandez 4174 145
10 Jake Peavy 3959 150

Brutus
07-26-2009, 02:45 PM
I'm not talking about the reason, I'm talking about the perception.

Maybe some fans and writers perceive it as that, but I'm not sure how that matters. What matters is reality, and reality is as much as I want to vilify Dusty Baker as much as the next guy, blaming his mismanagement for the reason why Aaron Harang is simply not as effective as he once was is simply a convenient excuse. Perception does not matter, especially among baseball people - who don't believe that.

For the strict debate, you might be right that some perceive that. But that doesn't really matter when it comes right to the point - that Harang simply is not the same pitcher he was.

Stormy
07-26-2009, 03:54 PM
THANK YOU! I'm so sick of hearing about how that SD outing screwed him up. It's BS. Plain and simple. He was out of whack well before then. He's had good outting here and there before & after, but they're much more rare than they used to be.

I disagree. He came into that relief appearance with a 3.50ERA, and his peripherals on the season K/9, WHIP etc... were completely in line with those of his entire Reds' career. He had absolutely devastatingly filthy stuff in that prolonged relief appearance, maybe the best slider he'd ever had in his life. Since that day he's been a completely different pitcher: inconsistent velocity, errant control, a shadow of his previous slider. He'd had one poor outing in May prior to the relief appearance, not any type of downward trend.

What you basically have is 3+ years of one version of Harang, and starting from that very day a completely different manifestation. Even when he records stellar outings since then, they are of a very different variety, where he relies almost purely upon fastball location, and his curve. He's still somewhat effective at times, but he's a completely different creature. Perhaps it's random coincidence, but a night and day contrast sure did begin his first start after that relief outing.

Falls City Beer
07-26-2009, 03:55 PM
I disagree. He came into that relief appearance with a 3.50ERA, and his peripherals on the season K/9, WHIP etc... were completely in line with those of his entire Reds' career. He had absolutely devastatingly filthy stuff in that prolonged relief appearance, maybe the best slider he'd ever had in his life. Since that day he's been a completely different pitcher: inconsistent velocity, errant control, a shadow of his previous slider. He'd had one poor outing in May prior to the relief appearance, not any type of downward trend.

What you basically have in 3+ years of one version of Harang, and starting from that very day a completely different version. Even when he records stellar outings since then, they are of a very different variety, where he relies almost purely upon fastball location, and his curve. He's still somewhat effective at times, but he's a completely different creature. Perhaps it's random coincidence, but a night and day contrast sure did begin his first start after that relief outing.

His peripherals are hardly off the mark this season. Maybe a bit down.

In other words, if he were really hurting, his peripherals would reflect a more drastic downturn. He can't be both "good" and "hurting" or "screwed up."

Stormy
07-26-2009, 03:59 PM
His peripherals are hardly off the mark this season. Maybe a bit down.

In other words, if he were really hurting, his peripherals would reflect a more drastic downturn. He can't be both "good" and "hurting" or "screwed up."

I think that is inaccurate. His K/9, his WHIP, his BAA/OPSA are all considerably worse than in his peak seasons with the Reds (as they have been for every measurable period since that May appearance, and never were for any measurable period for 3 years prior).

Falls City Beer
07-26-2009, 04:02 PM
I think that is inaccurate. His K/9, his WHIP, his BAA/OPSA are all considerably worse than in his peak seasons with the Reds (as they have been for every measurable period since that May appearance, and never were for any measurable period for 3 years prior).

His K/9 and BB/9 this season are both better than his career average, and much better than last year's.

Really, Harang's "peak" looks like one season.

TheNext44
07-26-2009, 04:07 PM
I disagree. He came into that relief appearance with a 3.50ERA, and his peripherals on the season K/9, WHIP etc... were completely in line with those of his entire Reds' career. He had absolutely devastatingly filthy stuff in that prolonged relief appearance, maybe the best slider he'd ever had in his life. Since that day he's been a completely different pitcher: inconsistent velocity, errant control, a shadow of his previous slider. He'd had one poor outing in May prior to the relief appearance, not any type of downward trend.

What you basically have is 3+ years of one version of Harang, and starting from that very day a completely different manifestation. Even when he records stellar outings since then, they are of a very different variety, where he relies almost purely upon fastball location, and his curve. He's still somewhat effective at times, but he's a completely different creature. Perhaps it's random coincidence, but a night and day contrast sure did begin his first start after that relief outing.

1) As many people have pointed out, his troubles started 5 starts before that appearance. 2-3, 4.45 ERA, 1.52 WHIP

2) His key peripherals have been the same before and after the relief appearance.

Before:

7.5 K/9 3.0 K/BB

After:

7.6 K/9 2.6 K/BB

What has gone up is his hits allowed: WHIP 1.29 to 1.46 and HR's 1.1 HR/9 to 1.6 HR/9.

He really has been the same pitcher, just getting hit harder.

Stormy
07-26-2009, 04:11 PM
His K/9 and BB/9 this season are both better than his career average, and much better than last year's.

Really, Harang's "peak" looks like one season.

1 peak season? Career averages? That's inveterate nonsense. For 3 full seasons (2005-2008) the guy logged averaged approximately 220IP of 3.75 ERA, 1.25WHIP, .265BAA baseball. And he started at exactly that pace through the first 2 months of 2008. Since that time, his ERA is inflated, his HR rate has increased, his BAA has risen to nearly .290, his WHIP is up near 1.45, and his K/9 rate has decreased. That's a very visible decline. Attribute it to what you will, but don't say it doesn't exist, use his numbers from Oakland, or claim the guy wasn't a horse for 3+ seasons with the Reds.

Falls City Beer
07-26-2009, 04:13 PM
1 peak season? Career averages? That's inveterate nonsense. For 3 full seasons (2005-2008) the guy logged averaged approximately 220IP of 3.75 ERA, 1.25WHIP, .265BAA baseball. And he started at exactly that pace through the first 2 months of 2008. Since that time, his ERA is inflated, his HR rate has increased, his BAA has risen to nearly .290, his WHIP is up near 1.45, and his K/9 rate has decreased. That's a very visible decline. Attribute it to what you will, but don't say it doesn't exist, use his numbers from Oakland, or claim the guy wasn't a horse for 3+ seasons with the Reds.

BAA? Who's talking nonsense?

The peripherals which Harang controls aren't really off since that relief appearance.

Stormy
07-26-2009, 04:18 PM
1) As many people have pointed out, his troubles started 5 starts before that appearance. 2-3, 4.45 ERA, 1.52 WHIP

2) His key peripherals have been the same before and after the relief appearance.

Before:

7.5 K/9 3.0 K/BB

After:

7.6 K/9 2.6 K/BB

What has gone up is his hits allowed: WHIP 1.29 to 1.46 and HR's 1.1 HR/9 to 1.6 HR/9.

He really has been the same pitcher, just getting hit harder.

5 of his previous 7 starts leading into the relief appearance had been quality starts. And I would attribute his suddenly getting hit harder after 3 years, and 2 months, of not being hit in that manner to the subsequent loss of 1+MPH on his fastball, the increasingly errant finepoint command, and the loss of his slider as an out pitch. Had the best slider of his career the day of the relief outing... have you ever seen it again? I sure haven't.

It's obviously speculation, but I know what my perception is, and it sure is coincidental after 3+ years of contrary precedent.

TheNext44
07-26-2009, 04:33 PM
5 of his previous 7 starts leading into the relief appearance had been quality starts. And I would attribute his suddenly getting hit harder after 3 years, and 2 months, of not being hit in that manner to the subsequent loss of 1+MPH on his fastball, the increasingly errant finepoint command, and the loss of his slider as an out pitch. Had the best slider of his career the day of the relief outing... have you ever seen it again? I sure haven't.

It's obviously speculation, but I know what my perception is, and it sure is coincidental after 3+ years of contrary precedent.

2 out of his next 4 starts after the relief appearance were quality starts. And just a few weeks later, he posted 6 quality starts in a row.

Stormy
07-26-2009, 04:51 PM
2 out of his next 4 starts after the relief appearance were quality starts. And just a few weeks later, he posted 6 quality starts in a row.

I think that's being conveniently selective. He might have managed 2QS in the midst of the worst shellings of his career, but then the bottom falls completely out for him. Likewise, the 6QS you just noted come after an extensive DL stint where he pitched 1 time in 6 weeks, after having never been a significant injury concern in his career. I think all of those facts are much more supportive of my contention, than they are of this idea that Harang was business as usual during this span of time.

Coming off that appearance, the guy basically posted a 7+ERA for the next month, for the first time in his career, followed by a DL stint.

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 12:28 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=cin


Tuesday, July 28 Tickets Great American Ball Park | 7:10 PM ET
SD Kevin Correia, RHP (6-8, 4.84)
Padres (38-61) @ CIN To be announced
Reds (44-53)


Saw this on Reds.com. They have Harang and Cueto listed on the following days. Any chance Arroyo's been dealt? Or has he been given some extra days of rest? Or are they moving him to Fri's game to cover Owing's spot and calling someone up Tues?
Anyone have any info on this?

jojo
07-27-2009, 12:32 AM
I'd like to see some sabremetrics on pitching coaches. What's a replacement level pitching coach? What do we measure?

What the heck does a pitching coach actually do? I bet the job description can vary fairly dramatically across mlb.

HokieRed
07-27-2009, 12:48 AM
Maloney last went on the 21st for the Bats; should be his turn tomorrow. If they skip him, I think we'll know who's going for the Reds Tues. Maloney certainly is the one who deserves it.

Will M
07-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Maloney last went on the 21st for the Bats; should be his turn tomorrow. If they skip him, I think we'll know who's going for the Reds Tues. Maloney certainly is the one who deserves it.

i know Maloney didn't pitch great in his 3 starts but i am interested to see if he can make adjustments and be better. lots of guys (pitchers and hitters) fail in their first shot in the bigs. however, since he doesn't have dominating stuff he won't get endless chances.

Orenda
07-27-2009, 12:57 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=cin


Saw this on Reds.com. They have Harang and Cueto listed on the following days. Any chance Arroyo's been dealt? Or has he been given some extra days of rest? Or are they moving him to Fri's game to cover Owing's spot and calling someone up Tues?
Anyone have any info on this?

It shouldn't be related to Owings because it was listed TBA yesterday when I looked at it.

kaldaniels
07-27-2009, 01:50 AM
I think that's being conveniently selective. He might have managed 2QS in the midst of the worst shellings of his career, but then the bottom falls completely out for him. Likewise, the 6QS you just noted come after an extensive DL stint where he pitched 1 time in 6 weeks, after having never been a significant injury concern in his career. I think all of those facts are much more supportive of my contention, than they are of this idea that Harang was business as usual during this span of time.

Coming off that appearance, the guy basically posted a 7+ERA for the next month, for the first time in his career, followed by a DL stint.

There's no way to know the correct answer on this unless true medical evidence would somehow be produced. Of course the relief appearance didn't help matters with him...but there's no way to be sure that it was the arm-killer that some make it out to be.

You make good points, but remember...Aaron had 6 straight Quality Starts towards the end of last year...heck he shutout the Cards.

Could it at least be possible he's just a guy who has peaked and is now heading off towards the twilight. No blame needed, just concede that he has apparently lost what he once had and move on? Is that too much to ask in this finger-pointing society we call Redszone?

jojo
07-27-2009, 02:02 AM
Personally, I'm really having trouble trying to find a reason to be negative about Harang either this year or really even while considering him over his remaining contract.

Mario-Rijo
07-27-2009, 03:42 AM
I love how they put that in there. That outing has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with Harang's mechanics being off. They were off before that and he's still not finishing his pitches. Sad to watch because the adjustments are so simple.

TC I usually take everything you say very seriously and as truth so I'd be interested in hearing more about your opinion on this matter. As it stands I am right with Stormy in his analysis of the situation. Harang despite his numbers hasn't looked right since the outing after that relief appearance. I hoped he would bounce back (so I refused to accept he wouldn't for some time) and his starts late last season despite the results weren't typical Harang, his stuff hasn't looked good, heavy or sharp since that SD debacle.

Also have to admit I found it odd he felt the need to lose so much weight last offseason, I never thought too much about it but I felt it signaled he knew something wasn't right and was compensating perhaps.

Jpup
07-27-2009, 10:26 AM
TC I usually take everything you say very seriously and as truth so I'd be interested in hearing more about your opinion on this matter. As it stands I am right with Stormy in his analysis of the situation. Harang despite his numbers hasn't looked right since the outing after that relief appearance. I hoped he would bounce back (so I refused to accept he wouldn't for some time) and his starts late last season despite the results weren't typical Harang, his stuff hasn't looked good, heavy or sharp since that SD debacle.

Also have to admit I found it odd he felt the need to lose so much weight last offseason, I never thought too much about it but I felt it signaled he knew something wasn't right and was compensating perhaps.

Maybe he's hurt?

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 10:29 AM
Maybe he's hurt?

Do truly hurt players pitch well in stretches like he has?

Maybe this is who he is.

KoryMac5
07-27-2009, 10:34 AM
The one thing I have noticed about Harang this year is that his velocity is down slightly (88mph-90mph) and that his breaking balls don't seem to be as sharp as they have in years past. I guess I am wondering if it could be a combination of bad mechanics and Pole's influence on Harang.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 10:34 AM
Personally, I'm really having trouble trying to find a reason to be negative about Harang either this year or really even while considering him over his remaining contract.

In general I agree. He's pretty unelectric, but he stays healthy, throws a decent number of pitches, and usually gives the team a reasonable chance to win.

I'd wager he'll be worth more to the Reds' MLB team than he would in a trade.

M2
07-27-2009, 10:54 AM
Harang OR Arroyo? Try AND.

My guess is neither may move prior to Friday, but that both may be gone before the end of August.

FWIW, I think Harang may be the best pitching pickup out there other than Halladay. Get him out of Cincinnati, put him in an honest ballpark, give him some consistent coaching and he'll thrive. I'd love to see the Twins get him (though he's almost surely out of their price range).

HokieRed
07-27-2009, 10:56 AM
In general I agree. He's pretty unelectric, but he stays healthy, throws a decent number of pitches, and usually gives the team a reasonable chance to win.

I'd wager he'll be worth more to the Reds' MLB team than he would in a trade.

Agree. I think we have a better rotation in 2010 with Harang than without and therefore a better chance to win. I think his contract's difficult to sell to another team but that doesn't mean it's necessarily all that bad in its own right. To trade Harang without eating a lot of his salary, Walt has to persuade other teams not only that the contract is reasonable but that it represents the best way for them to spend those dollars.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 11:34 AM
Harang OR Arroyo? Try AND.

My guess is neither may move prior to Friday, but that both may be gone before the end of August.

FWIW, I think Harang may be the best pitching pickup out there other than Halladay. Get him out of Cincinnati, put him in an honest ballpark, give him some consistent coaching and he'll thrive. I'd love to see the Twins get him (though he's almost surely out of their price range).

Both?

I don't know--with Owings out (shoulder is bad news) and Volquez probably headed for surgery, the Reds all of a sudden need innings badly, not only this year, but certainly next when you consider the Reds have no starters in the minors. This rotation wasn't good at 100%, but now it's been decimated (and I don't like and I'm sure Walt doesn't like the notion of turning the rotation over to one-man morale destroyers like Bailey).

Maybe Harang goes under different circumstances, but I seriously doubt he's going now.

M2
07-27-2009, 11:44 AM
Both?

I don't know--with Owings out (shoulder is bad news) and Volquez probably headed for surgery, the Reds all of a sudden need innings badly, not only this year, but certainly next when you consider the Reds have no starters in the minors. This rotation wasn't good at 100%, but now it's been decimated (and I don't like and I'm sure Walt doesn't like the notion of turning the rotation over to one-man morale destroyers like Bailey).

Maybe Harang goes under different circumstances, but I seriously doubt he's going now.

The Reds' pathological need to denude themselves will trump all else.

Plus, Travis Wood and Zach Stewart need to be thrown to the wolves.

osuceltic
07-27-2009, 12:15 PM
Harang OR Arroyo? Try AND.

My guess is neither may move prior to Friday, but that both may be gone before the end of August.


If you have a good plan for replacing those 400 innings and 35 quality starts, I'm all ears.


Plus, Travis Wood and Zach Stewart need to be thrown to the wolves.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm.

M2
07-27-2009, 12:28 PM
If you have a good plan for replacing those 400 innings and 35 quality starts, I'm all ears.

I don't. Personally I think it would be an idiotic move. Yet the Reds have been making idiotic moves this entire decade. No reason to stop now. The team is losing (and losing ugly), these guys cost money and the book says this is when you trade the guys with the salaries.


I'm assuming this is sarcasm.

Well, sure. That said, there's a new generation to be killed. It would be very un-Redslike to allow them to spend a full year starting in AAA before getting a shot at the majors.

It's time overpromote them, burn some waivers and get that arbitration clock ticking.

Point being, selling off veterans and asking too much of kids are the two essential steps in the Desperation Tango ... and the Reds are wearing their dancing shoes.