PDA

View Full Version : Reds close to making a deal?



Pages : [1] 2

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 03:34 PM
Firmly Sellers, Reds 'Close' to a Deal
Posted Jul 27, 2009 3:07PM By Jeff Fletcher (RSS feed)

The Reds are "sellers" and top club officials spoke on a special conference call Monday morning, an indication to a major league source that the team is "close to doing something," most likely involving one of its big-money pitchers: Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Harang or Francisco Cordero.

The Dodgers, looking for a veteran starter, are among the teams that have expressed some interest in Arroyo and Harang, but only as a fallback if they don't get Cliff Lee, the source said.

Arroyo has postseason experience and he's pitching well now. He has a 2.08 earned run average over his past three starts. For the season, he's 10-9 with a 5.21 ERA.

The Reds aren't likely to be able to move any of those pitchers without picking up some of their salary. Harang is signed through 2010, with an option for 2011 at $12.5 million next year with a $2 million buyout or a $12.75 million salary in 2011. Arroyo is signed for $11 million next with a $2 million buyout or an $11 million salary in 2011.

Cordero, an All-Star, is signed through 2011, with an option for 2012, at a salary of $12 million each year.

Teams could also have interest in setup men Arthur Rhodes and David Weathers.

Even though the Reds are apparently selling on this year, perhaps there is still a chance they go after Toronto third baseman Scott Rolen, who is signed for next year. A major league source told FanHouse's Ed Price that the Blue Jays were sending a scout to Cincinnati Monday to watch the Reds.

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/07/27/firmly-sellers-reds-are-close-to-a-deal/

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 03:38 PM
Its time to get busy living, or get busy dying.

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 03:39 PM
If the Reds trade for Rolen right now then I am convinced that they are completely clueless. Why trade now when you can wait until the offseason when Rolen's value would be significantly lower in the offseason?

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 03:39 PM
I'm guessing Arroyo to either the Dodgers or Yankees.

WMR
07-27-2009, 03:45 PM
If they can dump Arroyo I'll be pleased.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 03:46 PM
I hope they don't end up picking up too much of any of those contracts, particularly if they end up getting nothing for them, which will probably be the case. The Dodgers and Yankees can afford to pay.

traderumor
07-27-2009, 03:48 PM
If the Reds trade for Rolen right now then I am convinced that they are completely clueless. Why trade now when you can wait until the offseason when Rolen's value would be significantly lower in the offseason?I don't think that is an automatic assumption. The Jays might decide to keep him by the offseason. If you want him and the price is agreeable now, go get him. They have tickets, season tickets, and ad spots to sell both now and for next year.

I(heart)Freel
07-27-2009, 03:48 PM
If the Reds trade for Rolen right now then I am convinced that they are completely clueless. Why trade now when you can wait until the offseason when Rolen's value would be significantly lower in the offseason?

Am I not seeing something obvious? Why would Rolen's value significantly drop? Wouldn't he be held in the same regard then as now?

The only difference I see is about 3/8 of his 2009 salary.

If Edwin isn't going to Toronto in that hypothetical deal, it also gives him some time in this "lost" season to learn left field, or show club brass that he can or cannot play there.

Seems to me also that Toronto could have more suitors in the off-season, with all the teams who have 3rd base holes after this season. So maybe the Reds are wise to lock him down now?

kpresidente
07-27-2009, 03:50 PM
If the Reds trade for Rolen right now then I am convinced that they are completely clueless. Why trade now when you can wait until the offseason when Rolen's value would be significantly lower in the offseason?

Because somebody else might trade for him before then.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 03:55 PM
This is the latest update from Fay's blog:


Jon Heyman of si.com says the Reds and Yankees are talking about Bronson Arroyo. But the Yankees want the Reds to pay some of his salary. This sounds plausible. The Yankees are looking for a starter. Arroyo's pitched well lately -- save the three inherited runners that scored on the Manny slam. But I don't think the Reds are going to pay much of what Arroyo's owed. They've got to look at moving either him or Aaron Harang to give them payroll flexibility for next year. It doesn't make sense to do that if you're going to pay part of the salary anyway.


--The Scott Rolen-for-Edwin Encarnacion is making the rounds again. This made sense to me when the Reds had a pulse in the race. It doesn't now. The only way I see it happening is if Walt Jocketty's decided that he needs veteran leadership in the clubhouse. He knows Rolen and whether Rolen could provide it. Bob Elliot of the Toronto Sun says the Reds wanted the Jays to pay half Rolen's salary in 2010, which would put him in the neighborhood of the what Encarnacion is supposed to make.

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 03:55 PM
Because somebody else might trade for him before then.

That's what I was going to say.

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 03:57 PM
I don't think that is an automatic assumption. The Jays might decide to keep him by the offseason. If you want him and the price is agreeable now, go get him. They have tickets, season tickets, and ad spots to sell both now and for next year.

Rolen is going to cost the Reds about $4M for the rest of the season, and is not going to help this team get anywhere close to where it needs to be. The extra salary taken on will not (IMO) be made up for in ad spots, tickets, etc.


Am I not seeing something obvious? Why would Rolen's value significantly drop? Wouldn't he be held in the same regard then as now?

The only difference I see is about 3/8 of his 2009 salary.

If Edwin isn't going to Toronto in that hypothetical deal, it also gives him some time in this "lost" season to learn left field, or show club brass that he can or cannot play there.

Seems to me also that Toronto could have more suitors in the off-season, with all the teams who have 3rd base holes after this season. So maybe the Reds are wise to lock him down now?

Same reason that the Jays feel the need to deal Halladay. His value is much higher now than it will be in the offseason. Teams that are out of it rarely add overpriced vets and succeed. I'm not trying very hard, but I can't think of a single trade like that occurring and ultimately working out.

Toronto may very well have more suitors in the offseason, but I think the Reds would be much better off waiting to assess their needs/priorities in the offseason rather than make the deal now. If Frazier gets a cup of coffee in the bigs and impresses, then maybe 3B isn't as pressing of a need as other positions such as SS, and SP. Then maybe the acquisition of an overpriced vet can be avoided (see Taveras-Dickerson situation).


Because somebody else might trade for him before then.


Sure. But my point is that Rolen does not help us now. If the Reds had a chance to win this year AND bring Rolen back next year, I'd be all for it.

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 03:58 PM
This is the latest update from Fay's blog:

If the Reds can get half of his salary paid for, I'd be much more supportive.

klw
07-27-2009, 04:00 PM
Drew Sutton is here, something brewing?
Posted by JohnFay at 7/27/2009 3:52 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Drew Sutton is here. The Reds haven't announced a move. But I assume that Chris Dickerson is going on the DL. Right now, Jonny Gomes, Laynce Nix and Willy Taveras are the only healthy true outfielders on the roster. Jerry Hairston Jr. can play there, too, as can Sutton.

Bob Castellini is on a conference call with the top baseball people. I hope to talk to him later. You've got to think the Reds are listening offers form the few high-priced veterans they have. If Castellini's involved, that means money is being discussed.

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 04:01 PM
If the Reds can get half of his salary paid for, I'd be much more supportive.

I think it is safe to assume that money would be coming back. There is no way that Walt is taking on all that money.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 04:04 PM
I'm totally against acquiring Rolen, but I just noticed one thing.

He has at least 100 PA's in 20 different stadiums in baseball.

His four highest in OPS are:

PNC: 1.128
Cinergy: 1.111
Coors: 1.066
GABP: .987

He's sort of a local guy and grew up liking the Reds, right? Well, maybe he likes the home cooking in Cincy. Again, I'm against going after him for a number of reasons. Just food for thought.

Team Clark
07-27-2009, 04:04 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.

klw
07-27-2009, 04:05 PM
He's sort of a local guy and grew up liking the Reds, right? Well, maybe he likes the home cooking in Cincy. Again, I'm against going after him for a number of reasons. Just food for thought.

Could also be who was pitching to him.

flyer85
07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
I'm guessing a turd for shinola

UKFlounder
07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
If the Pirates of all franchises had to include money in deals they made with the Red Sox and Yankees this year, I imagine the Reds would have to -though if so, maybe that will improve the quality of what they get back, at least in theory (or in my dreams, perhaps.)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 04:07 PM
Could also be who was pitching to him.

Good point.

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 04:09 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.

Are you hearing any specific scuttlebutt?

M2
07-27-2009, 04:10 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.

If the Reds move Harang and Arroyo, there's little reason not to shop Phillips and Cordero as well.

traderumor
07-27-2009, 04:12 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.If that is true, welcome to 2001. Lance Davis reincarnated into Matt Maloney, "Reithed" is replaced by "Baileyed," and many, many more attractions.

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 04:14 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.

Furthermore, are we talking Eric Valent, Brandon Harris types or players with actual potential?

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 04:15 PM
If the Reds move Harang and Arroyo, there's little reason not to shop Phillips and Cordero as well.

Yes on Cordero, not necessarily on Phillips. Would depend on the return.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 04:16 PM
If those pitchers are dealt you would think there would have to be some major league ready pitchers coming back in some of the deals. They just put Owings on the DL, Volquez is probably at least a few weeks away at a minimum. If they trade Harang and Arroyo which I am not against they somehow have to fill most of the rotation to get through the rest of this year.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2009, 04:18 PM
If the Reds move Harang and Arroyo, they can go after Halladay:)

bucksfan2
07-27-2009, 04:19 PM
If that is true, welcome to 2001. Lance Davis reincarnated into Matt Maloney, "Reithed" is replaced by "Baileyed," and many, many more attractions.

Over the last two seasons Harang ha a W-L record of 11-28, with an ERA north of 4.25. Arroyo over the same period is 25-20 with a combined ERA of around 5. Those two pitchers really haven't been doing what they are expected to do. It is actually quite shocking when you look at the numbers and the lack of success from your supposed top 2 pitchers.

reds44
07-27-2009, 04:19 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a7e953e71-432e-4763-aeea-0e1724c47127&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com


Bob Castellini is on a conference call with the top baseball people. I hope to talk to him later. You've got to think the Reds are listening offers form the few high-priced veterans they have. If Castellini's involved, that means money is being discussed.

Interesting.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 04:20 PM
Yes on Cordero, not necessarily on Phillips. Would depend on the return.

x2

Team Clark
07-27-2009, 04:22 PM
If the Reds move Harang and Arroyo, there's little reason not to shop Phillips and Cordero as well.

Exactamundo. :)

Team Clark
07-27-2009, 04:23 PM
Are you hearing any specific scuttlebutt?

Educated guess. ;)

LoganBuck
07-27-2009, 04:26 PM
Educated guess. ;)

:thumbup:

M2
07-27-2009, 04:27 PM
Yes on Cordero, not necessarily on Phillips. Would depend on the return.

Not much point to keeping Phillips for 2010-11 if you're hacking away 400-450 IP of starting pitching and your closer.

Kc61
07-27-2009, 04:29 PM
As I said in an earlier post today, this team is likely to be dramatically changed.

We can all criticize Walt, but he is not just some guy who is happy to have a GM job. He's been keeping his powder dry for some time now with little moves here and there. He now knows this ballclub and he won't stand for this type of performance.

Whether his moves dramatically improve things, that's another question, but I think the team will soon be unrecognizable.

traderumor
07-27-2009, 04:32 PM
As I said in an earlier post today, this team is likely to be dramatically changed.

We can all criticize Walt, but he is not just some guy who is happy to have a GM job. He's been keeping his powder dry for some time now with little moves here and there. He now knows this ballclub and he won't stand for this type of performance.

Whether his moves dramatically improve things, that's another question, but I think the team will soon be unrecognizable.Boy, I hope you're right, but I'm as optimistic as a Joe Randa for Germano/Chick deal as the level of radical transformation of the team. Your view is needed, and all hats will be off to WJ for the poker face if your scenario materializes.

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Whether his moves dramatically improve things, that's another question, but I think the team will soon be unrecognizable.

Hairston. Taveras. Nix. Gomes. Dickerson. Roenicke. Fisher. Manual. Owings. Rhodes. Hernandez. Hanigan.

I'm sure that's not all of them, but I don't believe any of them were on the roster as of the end of 2007. So this team is very unrecognizable to me already. I can't imagine what it will look like in 4 days.

Kc61
07-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Boy, I hope you're right, but I'm as optimistic as a Joe Randa for Germano/Chick deal as the level of radical transformation of the team. Your view is needed, and all hats will be off to WJ for the poker face if your scenario materializes.

I wouldn't get too excited until I see what luminaries are coming the Reds' way. All I'm saying is that I envision a dismantling of the current group.

dfs
07-27-2009, 04:37 PM
I expect BOTH Harang and Arroyo to be traded. One today and one tomorrow. I think a 3rd deal is in the works pending what the Phillies are ready to do. I expect at least 4 Major League ready prospects and 1 Major Leaguer, all of which will play this year, in return.

Oh my. That would make the free agent class of 2010 very interesting to loook at.

Brandon Phillips is due to make 11 million in 2011. I'm just sayin.

wheels
07-27-2009, 04:38 PM
Let's hope the ball gets rolling soon.

I dig trades. That is, usually until I see what they get back.

Cyclone792
07-27-2009, 04:38 PM
I will officially state that if the Reds are selling this week, then Phillips needs to be involved in the selling.

The combination of the return he would bring plus the liability he could become in two years due to his salary just screams deal him for a haul right now. Phillips would be worth his salary in 2010, but not 2011 ... not for the type of production he provides with the additional probability that his defense is going to decline.

cincyinco
07-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Let the firesale begin.

We don't need no water...

M2
07-27-2009, 04:45 PM
I will officially state that if the Reds are selling this week, then Phillips needs to be involved in the selling.

The combination of the return he would bring plus the liability he could become in two years due to his salary just screams deal him for a haul right now. Phillips would be worth his salary in 2010, but not 2011 ... not for the type of production he provides with the additional probability that his defense is going to decline.

I expect Phillips will be pretty much the same player he is now in two years and I wouldn't sweat overpaying a good player.

That said, if the Reds are taking out the dynamite then Votto and Volquez might be the most veteran players that get to stay.

Here's a question I've got, would the Red Sox want him as a SS?

corkedbat
07-27-2009, 04:47 PM
Let the firesale begin.

We don't need no water...Interesting info TC. If they do deal for Rolen, they need to get at least as much can as they send to NY (or whomever) with Arroyo

UKFlounder
07-27-2009, 04:47 PM
You mean our friend Pile O' Cash doesn't excite you? :eek:


Let's hope the ball gets rolling soon.

I dig trades. That is, usually until I see what they get back.

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 04:47 PM
Not much point to keeping Phillips for 2010-11 if you're hacking away 400-450 IP of starting pitching and your closer.

Again, it depends on the return. If they are getting young but ML ready players back, then maybe he should stay.

If you get a Godfather type offer, I'll help him pack.

Strikes Out Looking
07-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Walt is good at selling.

Walt hasn't been very good at buying while living in the Queen City.

My point being is that it is much easier to get rid of players than to bring in what is needed--and I'll be even more upset than I currently am if, when the week is done, they are pointing to 2011.

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 04:50 PM
I expect Phillips will be pretty much the same player he is now in two years and I wouldn't sweat overpaying a good player.

I agree. I don't see him fading into the sunset at the moment. I think he is the type of player that would be "energized" if he were put on a team with good players. There are probably a lot of teams that would love to have Phillips. With that said, unless the return was huge, I'd keep him.

I feel bad for Votto if they go into a complete rebuilding phase. I also feel sorry for us, the fans. You can rebuild forever.

The Reds don't need prospects. They need players. I think there is a difference.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 04:52 PM
Here's a question I've got, would the Red Sox want him as a SS?

If they do then why can't/shouldn't the Reds want him as a SS?

I understand the philosophy that everything goes in a firesale, but Phillips would be one piece I'd like to hang onto, as he's signed through 2012 and I'm really hoping this isn't another "Build for 5 years from now" plan. Plus, after seeing AD play 1B for the DBacks and KGJ bat 7th for the White Sox last year, I've had my fill of trading a player to another team, only to see that team play said player where the Reds should have been playing him for years.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 04:52 PM
I expect Phillips will be pretty much the same player he is now in two years and I wouldn't sweat overpaying a good player.


I feel no particular urgency to trade away good defense behind this exceedingly green and needy pitching staff.

M2
07-27-2009, 04:58 PM
I feel no particular urgency to trade away good defense behind this exceedingly green and needy pitching staff.

I'd feel no urgency to tear the starting rotation to shreds either. I'm not talking about anything I'd do, I'm talking about what a team going into the fetal position might do.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 05:00 PM
I'd feel no urgency to tear the starting rotation to shreds either. I'm not talking about anything I'd do, I'm talking about what a team going into the fetal position might do.

I'd call shedding Arroyo some necessary intubation.

danforsman
07-27-2009, 05:00 PM
JD's website has pointed out that the Reds' official site now lists tomorrow's SP for Cincy as being "to be determined", rather than Arroyo.

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 05:02 PM
JD's website has pointed out that the Reds' official site now lists tomorrow's SP for Cincy as being "to be determined", rather than Arroyo.

It was like that yesterday.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2009, 05:02 PM
What? I can dream right?

Reds Trade:
Travis Wood
Yonder Alonso
Edwin Encarnacion
Juan Francisco
Chris Helsey TO BLUE JAYS
Bronson Arroyo
Arthur Rhodes/Stormy Weathers TO YANKEES

Blue Jays Trade
Scott Rolen
Roy Halladay to REDS

Yankees Trade
Prospect to BLUE JAYS
Prospect to Reds

Reds Receive:
Roy Halladay
Scott Rolen
Prospects

Blue Jays Receive:
Edwin
Travis Wood
Chris Helsey
Yonder Alonso
Prospect from Yankees

Yankees receive:
Bronson Arroyo
Arthur Rhodes
Roy Halladay not on the Bo Sox

edabbs44
07-27-2009, 05:03 PM
I'd feel no urgency to tear the starting rotation to shreds either. I'm not talking about anything I'd do, I'm talking about what a team going into the fetal position might do.

Trading Harang and Arroyo before they truly implode is the kind of move they need to make.

Volquez and Cueto are the ones who will be around and need to be added to. Watching Arroyo and Harang take up 30% of the payroll while providing ERAs in the 4s and 5s isn't what they need next year.

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 05:04 PM
I have a feeling that the Reds will acquire Rolen today.

They definitely are bringing in salary, not shedding it, at least not today. Fay said Cast was on a conference call with the other owners. No need to call them if they are dumping salary. only adding. It's like you don't need an I.D. at the bank when you are depositing money, only withdrawing it.

BRM
07-27-2009, 05:06 PM
I have a feeling that the Reds will acquire Rolen today.

They definitely are bringing in salary, not shedding it, at least not today. Fay said Cast was on a conference call with the other owners. No need to call them if they are dumping salary. only adding. It's like you don't need an I.D. at the bank when you are depositing money, only withdrawing it.

Or he could have been talking to them about the amount of Arroyo or Harang's salary the Reds will be picking up in a potential trade. Just a thought.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 05:06 PM
I have a feeling that the Reds will acquire Rolen today.

They definitely are bringing in salary, not shedding it, at least not today. Fay said Cast was on a conference call with the other owners. No need to call them if they are dumping salary. only adding. It's like you don't need an I.D. at the bank when you are depositing money, only withdrawing it.

They also may be discussing an Arroyo deal. If the Yankees are looking for the Reds to pay part of the salary as is rumored that would have to be discussed.

Kc61
07-27-2009, 05:06 PM
I have a feeling that the Reds will acquire Rolen today.

They definitely are bringing in salary, not shedding it, at least not today. Fay said Cast was on a conference call with the other owners. No need to call them if they are dumping salary. only adding. It's like you don't need an I.D. at the bank when you are depositing money, only withdrawing it.

Unless they are trading an Arroyo or Harang and paying some of the salary. That would likely be a Bob C thing.

Over the past weeks the rumored trade partners have been the Yanks, Phils, Rangers, Jays, Dodgers. We'll see.

REDREAD
07-27-2009, 05:08 PM
Not much point to keeping Phillips for 2010-11 if you're hacking away 400-450 IP of starting pitching and your closer.

I can see that logic, but on the other hand, let's say Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero are unloaded for young players. Let's say 2 of the players coming back are immediate contributors that are at least average.

The Reds now have a bunch of money freed up. (Esp with AGon and Hernandez being shed at the end of the year too).

With smart moves, they could rebuild pretty quickly. I'm not sure you want to just throw in the towel and say the team is going to suck for at least 3 more years, so might as well trade Phllips. If the Reds get a good offer for Phillips, then fine, cash him in. I don't see nearly the urgency to unload Phillips as I do some of the high priced pitchers. Harang might have some injury problem and be hanging on by a thread. Arroyo is a good pitcher, but a bit overpaid.
We'd miss either of them, for sure, but we need to try a new formula.
Phillips could be part of the new formula.

wheels
07-27-2009, 05:08 PM
I will officially state that if the Reds are selling this week, then Phillips needs to be involved in the selling.

The combination of the return he would bring plus the liability he could become in two years due to his salary just screams deal him for a haul right now. Phillips would be worth his salary in 2010, but not 2011 ... not for the type of production he provides with the additional probability that his defense is going to decline.

A thousand times "yes".

Good to see you've re - entered the fray.

smith288
07-27-2009, 05:11 PM
JD's website has pointed out that the Reds' official site now lists tomorrow's SP for Cincy as being "to be determined", rather than Arroyo.
Very interesting.

wheels
07-27-2009, 05:12 PM
Could this be a Redszone Night at La Casa De Wheels?

I'm making my special banana bread if anyone wants to come over.:D

M2
07-27-2009, 05:13 PM
If they do then why can't/shouldn't the Reds want him as a SS?

I understand the philosophy that everything goes in a firesale, but Phillips would be one piece I'd like to hang onto, as he's signed through 2012 and I'm really hoping this isn't another "Build for 5 years from now" plan. Plus, after seeing AD play 1B for the DBacks and KGJ bat 7th for the White Sox last year, I've had my fill of trading a player to another team, only to see that team play said player where the Reds should have been playing him for years.

I get the frustration, but the Sox are playing Nick Green at SS. Brandon Phillips has got to be better. Plus, the Red Sox are adventurous in ways the Reds aren't.

The Sox at least have prospects, which is why I brought them up.

Johnny Footstool
07-27-2009, 05:16 PM
Arroyo plus cash to Yankees for Melky Cabrera.

I think that's the kind of return we can expect. Meh.

redsfan4445
07-27-2009, 05:19 PM
Arroyo plus cash to Yankees for Melky Cabrera.

I think that's the kind of return we can expect. Meh.

AND TAVERAS is included in the deal if the Reds have to kick in any money

Az Red
07-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Arroyo plus cash to Yankees for Melky Cabrera.

I think that's the kind of return we can expect. Meh.

Boy I hope not! I don't think anyone can milk much else out of Melky.

KoryMac5
07-27-2009, 05:23 PM
Arroyo plus cash to Yankees for Melky Cabrera.

I think that's the kind of return we can expect. Meh.

They have been trying to pawn Melky to the Reds for the last three or four years it seems.

M2
07-27-2009, 05:23 PM
With smart moves, they could rebuild pretty quickly. I'm not sure you want to just throw in the towel and say the team is going to suck for at least 3 more years, so might as well trade Phllips. If the Reds get a good offer for Phillips, then fine, cash him in. I don't see nearly the urgency to unload Phillips as I do some of the high priced pitchers.

In order:

1. They could rebuild quickly, but they probably won't.

2. The Reds have been acting like they're going to suck forever, they don't need to say anything.

3. No matter what sorts of lemons the Reds get for Phillips, most fans will insist it's all lemonade ... and Phillips will be labeled a malcontent better turned into someone else's problem. If the kids have a good month in AA, the deal will be declared a victory for the Reds and that assessment will remain as long as Phillips fails to gain entry into Cooperstown.

4. Phillips strikes me as sensible enough to start asking what he's doing here if every other vet is leaving: "If it's my turn next year, why not just trade me now?" The Reds front office response: "Hey, good thinking. Pack your bags."

RANDY IN INDY
07-27-2009, 05:23 PM
Could this be a Redszone Night at La Casa De Wheels?

I'm making my special banana bread if anyone wants to come over.:D

I love banana bread!:beerme:

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 05:24 PM
Again, I predict that the Reds will not be sellers. If they trade veterans, it will be similar to what Team Clark said, for a bunch of major league ready prospects or actual major leaguers.

I think that is the smart move. The Reds are not that far off from being a solid contender. They just need more depth and more payroll flex. Trading players like Arroyo and Harang, and getting back pitchers who might be just a tad worse, but far less expensive, along with some other prospects, a is a very shrewd move, if that is what happens.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:27 PM
Again, I predict that the Reds will not be sellers. If they trade veterans, it will be similar to what Team Clark said, for a bunch of major league ready prospects or actual major leaguers.

I think that is the smart move. The Reds are not that far off from being a solid contender. They just need more depth and more payroll flex. Trading players like Arroyo and Harang, and getting back pitchers who might be just a tad worse, but far less expensive, along with some other prospects, a is a very shrewd move, if that is what happens.

I hope you're right.

I also hope one of those pitchers is Ian Snell.

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 05:27 PM
I expect Phillips will be pretty much the same player he is now in two years and I wouldn't sweat overpaying a good player.

That said, if the Reds are taking out the dynamite then Votto and Volquez might be the most veteran players that get to stay.

Here's a question I've got, would the Red Sox want him as a SS?

I'd laugh my butt off if we traded Phillips to the Red Sox and he played SS for the, but wouldn't play SS for us.

11larkin11
07-27-2009, 05:27 PM
Its time to get busy living, or get busy dying.

The Shawshank quotes keep comin. I love it!

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 05:31 PM
Could this be a Redszone Night at La Casa De Wheels?

I'm making my special banana bread if anyone wants to come over.:D

The kinda banana bread that makes you start askin' camisdelgolf type questions?

redsmetz
07-27-2009, 05:31 PM
I'd laugh my butt off if we traded Phillips to the Red Sox and he played SS for the, but wouldn't play SS for us.

Phillips can't play shortstop for us unless someone writes his name in the line-up there. It seems to me that various levels of management has made clear that they believed 2nd was his better position. Are you suggesting that Phillips refused to play there when asked?

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 05:34 PM
Castellini isn't ready to sell players
Posted by JohnFay at 7/27/2009 5:17 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The perception around baseball is that the Reds are ready to sell. But the man who will ultimately make that call, CEO Bob Castellini, says he’s not to that point.

“I believe we’re not at that point,” he said. “If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.

“How long that lasts, you’ll probably know before I do.”

Time is definitely getting short. The Reds are nine games under .500 at 44-53, 7½ games out of first with 65 games to play.

They placed two more players – Chris Dickerson and Micah Owings -- on the disabled list Monday. They have nine players on the DL currently.

“I don’t think we’ve dealt with injuries any worse than the Mets and they have twice the payroll,” Castellini said.

Castellini tried to stress the positive.

“The guys have to keep their chins up,” he said. “It’s been tough.”

Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty have said all along that the Reds are trying to add players to help win this year.

They’ve talked to the Toronto Blue Jays about Scott Rolen. Talks began three weeks ago. The Reds were hovering around .500 at the time.
They’ve since slid hard. They are 3-12 since July 7.

The only way dealing for Rolen makes sense is if the club feels it needs a veteran presence in the clubhouse for this year and next. Jocketty was the general manager in St. Louis when he traded for Rolen.

Rolen would be a major upgrade over Edwin Encarnacion defensively.

Toronto is also trying to trade Roy Halladay. Reports out of Toronto say the Jays would like to move Halladay before making other moves.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a75af17f4-160c-4bb0-ac52-ae77cfd70809&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:34 PM
I'd laugh my butt off if we traded Phillips to the Red Sox and he played SS for the, but wouldn't play SS for us.

You mean like Adam Dunn did at 1B last year?

FWIW, I don't believe Phillips wouldn't play SS for us. I think the Reds are too dumb to play him there.

BRM
07-27-2009, 05:36 PM
“I believe we’re not at that point,” he said. “If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.

If we could just get our pitchers to pitch better and our hitters to hit better, we'd be contenders!!

Homer Bailey
07-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Bob really thinks we're contenders.

How can the front office seriously be this blind?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Why does he have to be so obtuse?

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 05:37 PM
Phillips can't play shortstop for us unless someone writes his name in the line-up there. It seems to me that various levels of management has made clear that they believed 2nd was his better position. Are you suggesting that Phillips refused to play there when asked?

Phillips has appeared in all of 4 games @ SS for the Reds.

I'm wondering why various levels of management has made it clear that they wouldn't even try Phillips @ SS when we've had statues like Jeff Keppinger, Jerry Hairston Jr and to some extent Alex Gonzalez play SS.

While Phillips might be a dish best served @ 2B, why the heck not try him @ SS?

4 games @ SS in 3 years tells me he doesn't wanna play there.

klw
07-27-2009, 05:39 PM
Also, the Yankees do have interest in Bronson Arroyo. But the money and his inconsistency make it unlikely to happen.
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a75af17f4-160c-4bb0-ac52-ae77cfd70809&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 05:39 PM
I think Bob is floating a bargaining position: "Hey we're not that bad and we want MLB-ready or near-MLB-ready talent in return." Not saying it will work, but it's not uncommon and doesn't have to reflect the reality on the ground.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Castellini isn't ready to sell players
Posted by JohnFay at 7/27/2009 5:17 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com


http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a75af17f4-160c-4bb0-ac52-ae77cfd70809&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

This makes me sick. Welcome to Cincinnati Peter Angelos!

SirFelixCat
07-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Castellini isn't ready to sell players
Posted by JohnFay at 7/27/2009 5:17 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The perception around baseball is that the Reds are ready to sell. But the man who will ultimately make that call, CEO Bob Castellini, says he’s not to that point.

“I believe we’re not at that point,” he said. “If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.

“How long that lasts, you’ll probably know before I do.”

Time is definitely getting short. The Reds are nine games under .500 at 44-53, 7½ games out of first with 65 games to play.

They placed two more players – Chris Dickerson and Micah Owings -- on the disabled list Monday. They have nine players on the DL currently.

“I don’t think we’ve dealt with injuries any worse than the Mets and they have twice the payroll,” Castellini said.

Castellini tried to stress the positive.

“The guys have to keep their chins up,” he said. “It’s been tough.”

Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty have said all along that the Reds are trying to add players to help win this year.

They’ve talked to the Toronto Blue Jays about Scott Rolen. Talks began three weeks ago. The Reds were hovering around .500 at the time.
They’ve since slid hard. They are 3-12 since July 7.

The only way dealing for Rolen makes sense is if the club feels it needs a veteran presence in the clubhouse for this year and next. Jocketty was the general manager in St. Louis when he traded for Rolen.

Rolen would be a major upgrade over Edwin Encarnacion defensively.

Toronto is also trying to trade Roy Halladay. Reports out of Toronto say the Jays would like to move Halladay before making other moves.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a75af17f4-160c-4bb0-ac52-ae77cfd70809&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Oh for the love of Christ!!!:eek::bang::bang::bang:

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:40 PM
I think Bob is floating a bargaining position: "Hey we're not that bad and we want MLB-ready or near-MLB-ready talent in return." Not saying it will work, but it's not uncommon and doesn't have to reflect the reality on the ground.

Since when has the owner turned into the GM? I didn't know we were talking about the Bengals.

SirFelixCat
07-27-2009, 05:41 PM
I think Bob is floating a bargaining position: "Hey we're not that bad and we want MLB-ready or near-MLB-ready talent in return." Not saying it will work, but it's not uncommon and doesn't have to reflect the reality on the ground.

We'll know in a handful of days, one way or the other.

BRM
07-27-2009, 05:41 PM
I think Bob is floating a bargaining position: "Hey we're not that bad and we want MLB-ready or near-MLB-ready talent in return." Not saying it will work, but it's not uncommon and doesn't have to reflect the reality on the ground.

Let's hope it works.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 05:41 PM
From Will Carroll's twitter page:

RT @mattbirnbach: some dude on a Marlins board posted 45 min ago that he was hearing Hermida to Cincy & now Arroyo being scratched...

http://twitter.com/injuryexpert

Unassisted
07-27-2009, 05:42 PM
Why does he have to be so obtuse?IMO, Bob's just covering the "we don't need to trade to be successful" base, so that Walt and the organization won't look bad if they don't get a deal done. It also puts the players at ease, so that they won't be on edge wondering whose dugout they'll be in tomorrow, instead of worrying about today's game.

If they do get a deal done, he can say "We weren't really looking to deal ____, but this was a deal we just couldn't pass up. ____ has been an important part of our club for ___ seasons, but this was an opportunity to improve our ____ and we think that will help us win more games in the long run."

BRM
07-27-2009, 05:42 PM
"some dude on a Marlins board". Sounds like a good source.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Bob really thinks we're contenders.

How can the front office seriously be this blind?

He's not blind to anything. It's public relations.

He's trying to emphasize that they're not giving up on anything. Any trades that are made will not be a 'fire sale' but rather done with keeping the team competitive this year but ultimately trying to improve the club next year.

He is not "blind." He's trying to keep up the morale of the fan base. Based on these responses, clearly he is fighting a losing battle.

When will people learn that this game with the media is just that - a game. Folks take comments in the media way too seriously. It's all positioning.

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 05:43 PM
You mean like Adam Dunn did at 1B last year?

FWIW, I don't believe Phillips wouldn't play SS for us. I think the Reds are too dumb to play him there.

Dunn had at least played some 1B for the Reds here and there. 108 games between 2002 and 2007.

Phillips has played 4 games @ SS in 3+ years.

With Dunn, I never bought that he wouldn't play 1B for the Reds, it was that no one made him play 1B, and they actually said that they thought they (the Reds) were better offensively and defensively with him in LF and other guys @ 1B.

I think Phillips wouldn't play SS for the Reds b/c he knows his best chance to win a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger is at 2B.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:44 PM
Dunn had at least played some 1B for the Reds here and there. 108 games between 2002 and 2007.

Phillips has played 4 games @ SS in 3+ years.

With Dunn, I never bought that he wouldn't play 1B for the Reds, it was that no one made him play 1B, and they actually said that they thought they (the Reds) were better offensively and defensively with him in LF and other guys @ 1B.

I think Phillips wouldn't play SS for the Reds b/c he knows his best chance to win a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger is at 2B.

Disagree. I think it's almost exactly the same situation with Phillips as you described with Dunn (the Reds think they're better with Phillips at 2B)

M2
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
some dude on a Marlins board posted 45 min ago that he was hearing Hermida to Cincy & now Arroyo being scratched...

What does that mean? Was there almost a deal, but it got scuttled? Or are they about to pull the trigger on it?

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
"some dude on a Marlins board". Sounds like a good source.

Indeed.

VR
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
“If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.


this is yet another sub title to the novel "The Cincinnati Reds of the 21st century"

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
"some dude on a Marlins board". Sounds like a good source.

Ramp?


Seriously, the Reds are turning into the Bengals right before our eyes.

M2
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
IMO, Bob's just covering the "we don't need to trade to be successful" base, so that Walt and the organization won't look bad if they don't get a deal done. It also puts the players at ease, so that they won't be on edge wondering whose dugout they'll be in tomorrow, instead of worrying about today's game.

If they do get a deal done, he can say "We weren't really looking to deal ____, but this was a deal we just couldn't pass up. ____ has been an important part of our club for ___ seasons, but this was an opportunity to improve our ____ and we think that will help us win more games in the long run."

That covers it.

klw
07-27-2009, 05:46 PM
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/


Yankees, Reds Working On Arroyo Deal
Posted: Jul 27, 2009 5:38PM By Jeff Fletcher (RSS feed)
Filed Under: Reds, Yankees, MLB Inside Scoop, MLB Trade Deadline
0 COMMENTS
The Yankees are in serious discussions with the Reds about acquiring Bronson Arroyo, although right now the deal may be hinging on how much of Arroyo's remaining contract the Reds are willing to eat, major league sources told FanHouse on Monday.

"It will get done," the source said.

Arroyo, 32, is due nearly $4 million for the rest of this season, plus $11 million in 2010 and a $2 million buyout or a $11 million option in 2012. Arroyo is 10-9 with a 5.21 ERA, but he has a 2.08 ERA in his past three starts.

Reds top officials met via conference call this morning, an indication to one big-league source that they were "close to a deal." Arroyo has since been removed as the Reds probable pitcher for Tuesday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REDREAD
07-27-2009, 05:46 PM
In order:
."

All solid points, and unfortunately grounded in reality.

I am not sure though that Cast wants to put the fans through another 2003-type firesale. I admit that last season has dampened my optimism that Cast is going to bring us home a winner, but I hold on to hope that he won't be as bad as Carl.

I won't sit through another year of Lance Davis, etc.. I'm actually pretty easy to please. If the Reds could get back to around .500 in the short term (meaning next year), without pillaging the farm system, that would make me happy.

I mean, you don't really want them to go back to a 20 million payroll and trade off everything, do you? Phillips is one of the few legitimate above average players we have. Unlike a pitcher, he's a low risk to have a career ending injury. I only trade him if I get a deal worth doing. Trade Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero for salary relief (if you need to).

BRM
07-27-2009, 05:47 PM
Yankees, Reds Working On Arroyo Deal
Posted: Jul 27, 2009 5:38PM By Jeff Fletcher (RSS feed)
Filed Under: Reds, Yankees, MLB Inside Scoop, MLB Trade Deadline
0 COMMENTS
The Yankees are in serious discussions with the Reds about acquiring Bronson Arroyo, although right now the deal may be hinging on how much of Arroyo's remaining contract the Reds are willing to eat, major league sources told FanHouse on Monday.

"It will get done," the source said.

Arroyo, 32, is due nearly $4 million for the rest of this season, plus $11 million in 2010 and a $2 million buyout or a $11 million option in 2012. Arroyo is 10-9 with a 5.21 ERA, but he has a 2.08 ERA in his past three starts.

Reds top officials met via conference call this morning, an indication to one big-league source that they were "close to a deal." Arroyo has since been removed as the Reds probable pitcher for Tuesday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd love to hear who the Reds would get in return. The more salary the Reds pay, the better the prospect should be. In theory anyway.

savafan
07-27-2009, 05:48 PM
I think Phillips wouldn't play SS for the Reds b/c he knows his best chance to win a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger is at 2B.

http://www.crookedpitch.com/317/brandon-phillips-could-add-shortstop-eligibilty/


Dusty Baker hasn’t said anything about this yet, but Brandon Phillips is throwing his hat into the ring to play a little bit at the shortstop position.

Second baseman Brandon Phillips wouldn’t be averse to playing shortstop.

“I’d love to play shortstop again,” Phillips said. “But it’s up to (Baker).”

Phillips played shortstop in the minors and has played five games there in the majors. The Reds considered moving him there before they signed Gonzalez.



This entry was posted on Thursday, May 15th, 2008

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 05:49 PM
Disagree. I think it's almost exactly the same situation with Phillips as you described with Dunn (the Reds think they're better with Phillips at 2B)

Then it will just confirm the Reds are stupid if they don't think that Phillips isn't just as good or better defensively than the statues that have played SS for the Reds since 2006. Offensively, he's better than all of them.

I'm pretty sure we'd find someone who could hack it at least the same offensively as the statues that have played SS to play 2B.

Defensively, the Reds are better with Phillips @ 2B than anyone else in the organization.

However, Phillips is probably the 2nd best SS we have in the organization, defensively.

I just think Phillips is selfish b/c he knows he's more marketable as a 2B than a SS.

WMR
07-27-2009, 05:50 PM
“I believe we’re not at that point,” he said. “If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.



:lol:

I sincerely hope he's not that delusional/stupid.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 05:51 PM
What does that mean? Was there almost a deal, but it got scuttled? Or are they about to pull the trigger on it?

Arroyo has postseason experience and he's pitching well now. He has a 2.08 earned run average over his past three starts. For the season, he's 10-9 with a 5.21 ERA. He was also scheduled to start for Cincinnati Tuesday night, but the team Web site is now listing the starter for that game against the Padres as "to be announced."

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/07/27/firmly-sellers-reds-are-close-to-a-deal/#cont

VR
07-27-2009, 05:51 PM
Correct me if I'm assuming, but the Reds ARE trying to acquire some important pieces for Arroyo, et al.....not just giving them aware for a salary dump?
That's the only thing that has me excited about the prospect of moving these guys right now....

VR
07-27-2009, 05:53 PM
Arroyo has postseason experience and he's pitching well now. He has a 2.08 earned run average over his past three starts. For the season, he's 10-9 with a 5.21 ERA. He was also scheduled to start for Cincinnati Tuesday night, but the team Web site is now listing the starter for that game against the Padres as "to be announced."

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/07/27/firmly-sellers-reds-are-close-to-a-deal/#cont


His stuff during his last start was as good as I've seen, hopefully the scouts (and the Reds) were paying attention to that.

WMR
07-27-2009, 05:53 PM
He's not blind to anything. It's public relations.

He's trying to emphasize that they're not giving up on anything. Any trades that are made will not be a 'fire sale' but rather done with keeping the team competitive this year but ultimately trying to improve the club next year.

He is not "blind." He's trying to keep up the morale of the fan base. Based on these responses, clearly he is fighting a losing battle.

When will people learn that this game with the media is just that - a game. Folks take comments in the media way too seriously. It's all positioning.

This is just wrong on every level. Bob must think the fans are pretty stupid if he thinks saying idiotic things like "if only our pitchers would pitch better and out hitters would hit better" is going to pass the smell test for ANYBODY.

No one is buying that crap and Castellini shouldn't be trying to sell it.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 05:57 PM
Quick, we need a 411 on Yankees prospects (other than the obligatory, "they're overrated.")

I'd assume Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero are not going anywhere, along with Hughes and Chamberlain. Who else could we hope for?

Given their catching depth, Austin Romine would quickly surpass Devin Mesoraco as the catcher of the future, but I'm guessing the Reds want something closer to contributing.

Andrew Brackman is a local guy, but he's been horrible since coming back from surgery.

Phil Coke is a nice lefty arm for the bullpen, but I'd want a little more (unless the Yanks are picking up all of the $$.) As part of a package, he could be a good replacement for Rhodes should he get dealt this week.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 05:59 PM
This is just wrong on every level. Bob must think the fans are pretty stupid if he thinks saying idiotic things like "if only our pitchers would pitch better and out hitters would hit better" is going to pass the smell test for ANYBODY.

No one is buying that crap and Castellini shouldn't be trying to sell it.

I think you're wrong. I think Joe Average Fan that does not frequent Redszone does buy into it. Heck, even the more passionate folks like yourself that are on here a lot believe his statements even if they don't believe the logic behind them.

It's all positioning. I promise. I have been fortunate enough through my job to get to know a lot of people in the public eye in sports. This is very common procedure. You have to try to keep excitement. They want people to know if they see some sort of deal that seems like it's selling off, it's done with the idea that they are going to continue to compete.

Whether people buy it or not is another story, but I will guarantee this is the purpose. Why do you think these comments are almost identical to what Jocketty said less than a week ago? Clearly these guys have a coordinated plan. We'll see how it gets executed, but I think they know what the are trying to do.

M2
07-27-2009, 06:00 PM
I mean, you don't really want them to go back to a 20 million payroll and trade off everything, do you? Phillips is one of the few legitimate above average players we have. Unlike a pitcher, he's a low risk to have a career ending injury. I only trade him if I get a deal worth doing. Trade Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero for salary relief (if you need to).

Those three are roughly half the payroll. Moving Arroyo is relief. Moving all three is divestiture. You've also got to figure Weathers and Rhodes are going.

Add in Gonzalez and Hernandez coming off the books after the season and the Reds are suddenly a bottom-of-the-barrel payroll. At that point they might as well move Phillips while there's a market for him.

Though it should be noted that Walt's finest hour as a GM was moving J.D. Drew and Eli Marrero for Adam Wainwright, Jason Marquis and Ray King, then using the savings to buy Reggie Sanders and Jeff Suppan. So perhaps this is part of a money shuffle and not a punt.

VR
07-27-2009, 06:01 PM
Any gems in this year's FA pool?

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Quick, we need a 411 on Yankees prospects (other than the obligatory, "they're overrated.")

I know Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero. I'd assume they're not going anywhere, along with Hughes and Chamberlain. Who else could we hope for?

Given their catching depth, Austin Romine would quickly surpass Devin Mesoraco as the catcher of the future, but I'm guessing the Reds want something closer to contributing.

Andrew Brackman is a local guy, but he's been horrible since coming back from surgery.

Phil Coke is a nice lefty arm for the bullpen, but I'd want a little more. As part of a package, he could be a good replacement for Rhodes should he get dealt this week.

I've surpassed Mesorasco on the catching depth chart.

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:02 PM
If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders

This quote made me lol hard.

And anybody who believes anything BCast said in that article, well, you're better than that.

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:03 PM
Oh, and I'd rather have Hermida than anything the Yankees can offer.

That fills one of the gaping holes for next year.

redsfan4445
07-27-2009, 06:04 PM
just posted:mlb traderumors

"Yankees And Reds Talking Arroyo Trade
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 27 at 5:00pm CST]
The Yankees and Reds are seriously discussing a Bronson Arroyo trade, according to Jeff Fletcher of AOL FanHouse. One of Fletcher's sources says the possible deal "will get done," though the two clubs haven't determined how much of the $4MM remaining on Arroyo's contract the Reds will pay. Arroyo will make $11MM next season and the same amount in 2011 if his team doesn't buy him out for $2MM.

Earlier this afternoon Fletcher reported that the Reds could be on the brink of making a move."

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:04 PM
As an aside, if Arroyo goes I'd like to give Mark Mulder an incentive-laden deal.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:04 PM
FWIW, I would love to have Hermida.

WMR
07-27-2009, 06:06 PM
I think you're wrong. I think Joe Average Fan that does not frequent Redszone does buy into it. Heck, even the more passionate folks like yourself that are on here a lot believe his statements even if they don't believe the logic behind them.

It's all positioning. I promise. I have been fortunate enough through my job to get to know a lot of people in the public eye in sports. This is very common procedure. You have to try to keep excitement. They want people to know if they see some sort of deal that seems like it's selling off, it's done with the idea that they are going to continue to compete.

Whether people buy it or not is another story, but I will guarantee this is the purpose. Why do you think these comments are almost identical to what Jocketty said less than a week ago? Clearly these guys have a coordinated plan. We'll see how it gets executed, but I think they know what the are trying to do.

I think fans would appreciate straight talk more than more blustery words from Big Mouth Bob.

I was hoping that the "losing stops now" might shut him up for good but that apparently was a pipe dream. He should leave the PR crap to the PR people because all he's doing when he flaps his gums, IMO, is piss people off and make himself look more and more foolish.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 06:06 PM
Oh, and I'd rather have Hermida than anything the Yankees can offer.

That fills one of the gaping holes for next year.

I didn't really take that tweet to mean any Hermida deal would include Arroyo. I think it was deducing that the Reds were trying to get Hermida, and because Arroyo was apparently scratched, by association, it must be for him. I don't think that's the case, though.

I can't see the Marlins adding someone like Arroyo unless the Reds spring for an awful lot of the remaining salary. I think whatever deal might be in the works for Hermida (if it's even a credible rumor), probably has/had nothing to do with Bronson.

RedLegSuperStar
07-27-2009, 06:07 PM
MLBTR.com

Yankees On Verge Of Getting Arroyo - Deal "Will get done."

Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano?

Phillip Hughes?

VR
07-27-2009, 06:07 PM
FWIW, I would love to have Hermida.

don't like his walk rate too much as an outfielder....but could be a good option. Straight up for Weathers? :)

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:08 PM
I didn't really take that tweet to mean any Hermida deal would include Arroyo. I think it was deducing that the Reds were trying to get Hermida, and because Arroyo was apparently scratched, by association, it must be for him. I don't think that's the case, though.

I can't see the Marlins adding someone like Arroyo unless the Reds spring for an awful lot of the remaining salary. I think whatever deal might be in the works for Hermida (if it's even a credible rumor), probably has/had nothing to do with Bronson.
Even better. :thumbup:

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:09 PM
MLBTR.com


Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano?

Phillip Hughes?
Oh there's no way we would get Cano by himself for Arroyo. I would do backflips.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 06:09 PM
I think fans would appreciate straight talk more than more blustery words from Big Mouth Bob.

I was hoping that the "losing stops now" might shut him up for good but that apparently was a pipe dream. He should leave the PR crap to the PR people because all he's doing when he flaps his gums, IMO, is piss people off and make himself look more and more foolish.

If he comes out and says "our goal is to win in 2010," then people stop coming to the ballpark the rest of the year even if the Reds can field a half-decent team. That's the psychology of the situation.

If the Reds acquire Rolen, Hermida and someone else, even though they have traded (possibly) Arroyo, Encarnacion and a few others, people still buy into competing and sub-consciously remain interested. It's a mind game. It's human nature and the Reds brass understand that.

It's been studied in psychology that people don't usually want the truth. They want 'truth' that is convenient.

BRM
07-27-2009, 06:12 PM
None of the Arroyo to the Yankees rumors ever mention the possible return. That tells me I probably won't be all giddy with excitement when/if it happens.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 06:14 PM
None of the Arroyo to the Yankees rumors ever mention the possible return. That tells me I probably won't be all giddy with excitement when/if it happens.

I believe Arroyo's deal is...

A) Only a precursor to another deal, and
B) Salary flexibility for the structure of the 2010 Reds

I never anticipated any sort of real return for Arroyo. It's all for flexibility to do other things.

WMR
07-27-2009, 06:15 PM
If he comes out and says "our goal is to win in 2010," then people stop coming to the ballpark the rest of the year even if the Reds can field a half-decent team. That's the psychology of the situation.

If the Reds acquire Rolen, Hermida and someone else, even though they have traded (possibly) Arroyo, Encarnacion and a few others, people still buy into competing and sub-consciously remain interested. It's a mind game. It's human nature and the Reds brass understand that.

It's been studied in psychology that people don't usually want the truth. They want 'truth' that is convenient.

Better to remain quiet and have folks think you're a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Or Bob can keep spinning his own unique form of PR and lose whatever shreds of credibility he has remaining.

Another thing that has been proven is that people don't like being lied to.

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 06:16 PM
Another thing that has been proven is that people don't like being lied to.

I don't know about that.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:16 PM
Quick, we need a 411 on Yankees prospects (other than the obligatory, "they're overrated.")

I'd assume Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero are not going anywhere, along with Hughes and Chamberlain. Who else could we hope for?

Given their catching depth, Austin Romine would quickly surpass Devin Mesoraco as the catcher of the future, but I'm guessing the Reds want something closer to contributing.

Andrew Brackman is a local guy, but he's been horrible since coming back from surgery.

Phil Coke is a nice lefty arm for the bullpen, but I'd want a little more (unless the Yanks are picking up all of the $$.) As part of a package, he could be a good replacement for Rhodes should he get dealt this week.

I like Arodys Vizcaino and Zach McAllister.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=527055

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=502083

wheels
07-27-2009, 06:17 PM
The kinda banana bread that makes you start askin' camisdelgolf type questions?

I wish.

M2
07-27-2009, 06:20 PM
Quick, we need a 411 on Yankees prospects (other than the obligatory, "they're overrated.")

I'd assume Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero are not going anywhere, along with Hughes and Chamberlain. Who else could we hope for?

Given their catching depth, Austin Romine would quickly surpass Devin Mesoraco as the catcher of the future, but I'm guessing the Reds want something closer to contributing.

Andrew Brackman is a local guy, but he's been horrible since coming back from surgery.

Phil Coke is a nice lefty arm for the bullpen, but I'd want a little more (unless the Yanks are picking up all of the $$.) As part of a package, he could be a good replacement for Rhodes should he get dealt this week.

Zach McAllister is a 21-year-old, solidly built, 6'6" groundball pitcher with a 1.14 WHIP and 7.34 K/9 in AA. He might entice the Reds.

Romine and Ian Kennedy might be a decent score.

BRM
07-27-2009, 06:22 PM
I think Brutus is likely correct. The return for Arroyo will be "Payflex" and not much more. I won't be holding my breath for any sort of actual prospect.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:22 PM
Kennedy is most likely out for the season but I'd still be interested in him. Romine would be a great get, too.

WMR
07-27-2009, 06:22 PM
I think Brutus is likely correct. The return for Arroyo will be "Payflex" and not much more. I won't be holding my breath for any sort of actual prospect.

If we could get them to take on the entire contract I wouldn't really have an issue with that.

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 06:25 PM
Zach McAllister is a 21-year-old, solidly built, 6'6" groundball pitcher with a 1.14 WHIP and 7.34 K/9 in AA. He might entice the Reds.

Romine and Ian Kennedy might be a decent score.

I earlier suggested a Alfredo Aceves Zach McAllister for Arroyo and Rhodes trade. Take out Rhodes and insert some cash, and I think the Yankees would bite.

Not high on Romine. All defense, no hit catchers are everywhere.

BRM
07-27-2009, 06:25 PM
If we could get them to take on the entire contract I wouldn't really have an issue with that.

You must be assuming Walt will spend the Payflex wisely. I hope he does. That said, if the Reds are kicking in a pretty good chunk of his salary, there really should be a decent prospect coming back. It's going to be an interesting couple of days.

M2
07-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Not high on Romine. All defense, no hit catchers are everywhere.

He's flashing some power in the FSL. No patience is the main concern with his offensive game.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:29 PM
Not high on Romine. All defense, no hit catchers are everywhere.

He's got a career OPS of .789. That's better than anything we've got in the system outside of Hanigan.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:30 PM
Provided the Reds are sending over <$3MM in cash, I'd be happy with 2 out of Romine, McAllister, and Coke.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:31 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern

http://twitter.com/Redreporter

savafan
07-27-2009, 06:33 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern

http://twitter.com/Redreporter

If it's all 3, that better be one helluva return!

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:33 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern

http://twitter.com/Redreporter

Wow. Could the Yanks get Cordero as a setup man, then deal Hughes and/or Joba for Halladay?

If so, I hope we can pry away Montero or Jackson, although their positions make them semi-redundant.

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:33 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern



Now they're letting interns make deals!?

Awe. Some.

WMR
07-27-2009, 06:33 PM
You must be praying Walt will spend the Payflex wisely.

fixed.

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:35 PM
From Miss Enquirer (works in the Cincy Enquirer sports department)

RT @LatestNewsOnMLB: As I said earlier today, #Reds near a deal after morning meeting. Player is: Arroyo to #Yankees. Deal almost done

http://twitter.com/MissEnquirer

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:35 PM
wait, if the Reds "aren't sellers" yet they are moving possibly BA, AH, and Coco then that means they have to be bringing in more money then that is going out.

ARod will be a Red tonight.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:36 PM
Sounds like it's pretty much a done deal.

Question: Would you be satisfied with straight up Arroyo-for-Igawa swap? Igawa makes $4MM per through 2011 and has a 3.45 ERA in AAA. It would certainly jive with trading expensive pitchers for slightly inferior less expensive pitchers.

JaxRed
07-27-2009, 06:36 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern

http://twitter.com/Redreporter


That report sounds bogus on so many levels

BRM
07-27-2009, 06:36 PM
wait, if the Reds "aren't sellers" yet they are moving possibly BA, AH, and Coco then that means they have to be bringing in more money then that is going out.

ARod will be a Red tonight.

Sweet!! That intern deserves a promotion.

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:37 PM
That report sounds bogus on so many levels

I wonder if the intern has to fetch Walt coffee. He's selling Walt out because Walt wanted a Double soy latte with a twist of lemon.

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:37 PM
How much you want to bet the meeting is to tell them they aren't going anywhere?

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 06:38 PM
That report sounds bogus on so many levels

The guy that reported that is apparently an intern with the Reds. Not sure how true the report is though.

CTA513
07-27-2009, 06:38 PM
wait, if the Reds "aren't sellers" yet they are moving possibly BA, AH, and Coco then that means they have to be bringing in more money then that is going out.

ARod will be a Red tonight.

:cool:

REDREAD
07-27-2009, 06:39 PM
It's been studied in psychology that people don't usually want the truth. They want 'truth' that is convenient.

Yep. Remember the problems the Reds had when they said around 2000 or 2001, "Just wait until 2003, we aren't even going to try to win until then".
All they did was whine about their share of the stadium payments, etc.
That is stupidity.

Having the owner make some remarks about there still being hope for the season, it's a good team, etc is just smart, particularly becauase I don't think the plan is to burn the entire team to the ground.

Realistically, maybe one or two trades get made, because Walt isn't going to give away talent for pure salary relief. There's just not enough time and there's so much inertia with any trade this time of year...that not much else can be expected to be done.

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:39 PM
How much you want to bet the meeting is to tell them they aren't going anywhere?

I'll bet

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 06:40 PM
This is from Fox Sports:


The Reds have made tentative plans to scratch right-hander Bronson Arroyo from his start Tuesday because of ongoing trade talks, one major league source said Monday, although one team official didn't immediately confirm or deny the decision.

Fanhouse.com has reported that Cincinnati is in "serious discussions" with the Yankees about a trade involving Arroyo.

JaxRed
07-27-2009, 06:40 PM
The guy that reported that is apparently an intern with the Reds. Not sure how true the report is though.

If I'm an intern with the Reds.... the LAST thing I do is blog by calling myself Reds Intern

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:40 PM
Merely three hours ago, Tyler Kepner (NY Times) noted that the Yankees "had zero interest in Bronson Arroyo from Cincinnati."

The plot thickens...

JaxRed
07-27-2009, 06:42 PM
The funny part to me about all this is my wife is Yankees fan and I've been kidding her for months that Bronson is going to Yankees. I usually say for Hughes and Jackson.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 06:42 PM
I have never really heard of someone being scratched from a start before a deal is done. It is almost like they are afraid to have Bronson get pounded in a start tomorrow night which might cause a team to have second thoughts.

REDREAD
07-27-2009, 06:43 PM
I have never really heard of someone being scratched from a start before a deal is done. It is almost like they are afraid to have Bronson get pounded in a start tomorrow night which might cause a team to have second thoughts.

Maybe the team that Arroyo is heading to doesn't want to wait 5 days to use him? I guess they are close enough to a deal to tentatively scratch him.

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:43 PM
The plot thickens...

1. Reds intern breaking news.
2. Cast lets everyone know that they aren't "sellers".
3. NY Times reporting that Yanks have no interest in BA.


The Reds are trading Marty for Charlie Steiner, eventhough I have no idea if Steiner is even with the yanks anymore.

REDREAD
07-27-2009, 06:44 PM
The Reds are trading Marty for Charlie Steiner, eventhough I have no idea if Steiner is even with the yanks anymore.

Walt wins GM of the year if he pulls that off, even if Steiner isn't alive anymore :)

M2
07-27-2009, 06:45 PM
Question: Would you be satisfied with straight up Arroyo-for-Igawa swap? Igawa makes $4MM per through 2011 and has a 3.45 ERA in AAA. It would certainly jive with trading expensive pitchers for slightly inferior less expensive pitchers.

You're being reasonable, no fair.

Igawa and a prospect might do the trick.

DoogMinAmo
07-27-2009, 06:49 PM
Where is Krusty when you need him?

That being said, notice how the quote said the Yankees "had" no interest in Arroyo, they very well might have a ton of interest in him now.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 06:50 PM
Jon Heymann of CNN SI is also now reporting the Reds are also continuing to pursue a trade for Rolen.

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:52 PM
The Reds are going to trade everybody and acquire everybody simulatenously. It's going to be one big, 40 player trade.

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:52 PM
The Reds are going to trade everybody and acquire everybody simulatenously. It's going to be one big, 40 player trade.

That would be awesome. Krusty would explode.

11larkin11
07-27-2009, 06:53 PM
The Reds are going to trade everybody and acquire everybody simulatenously. It's going to be one big, 40 player trade.

I'm pretty sure no one here would be opposed to that.

Actually 39 for 39. If we trade Votto, Pujols better be coming back

Benihana
07-27-2009, 06:55 PM
MLB.com's Mark Sheldon says that Arroyo is indeed scheduled to start for the Reds tomorrow. Tuesday's starter had been listed as TBA in error.

riiiight

reds44
07-27-2009, 06:56 PM
The longer this goes on the more I believe nothing will happen.

Raisor
07-27-2009, 06:57 PM
According to the voices in my head, the Reds have traded fdkngfdkjgn to Kffsdjf for sdkjfsd.

For some reason, the voices are garbled.

You may now all get on with your lives.

Strikes Out Looking
07-27-2009, 06:58 PM
Walt wins GM of the year if he pulls that off, even if Steiner isn't alive anymore :)

He is alive and well doing Dodger games--unfortunately he's no longer on XM and I for one, miss his show. He'd be great as the Reds announcer, but I think they have a better chance at Halladay than Steiner.

Brutus
07-27-2009, 06:58 PM
According to the voices in my head, the Reds have traded fdkngfdkjgn to Kffsdjf for sdkjfsd.

For some reason, the voices are garbled.

You may now all get on with your lives.

The voices in my head categorically deny this report.

savafan
07-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Arroyo is now listed as tomorrow's starter on the Reds website

Raisor
07-27-2009, 07:01 PM
I love the fact that an intern "broke" the story.

Reminds me of when during spring training, a Dodgers telesales guy was telling prospective season ticket buyers that the Dodgers were "really close" to signing Manny.

..and they were.

JaxRed
07-27-2009, 07:10 PM
Well, nothing will happen now till after game now.....

Always Red
07-27-2009, 07:13 PM
How much you want to bet the meeting is to tell them they aren't going anywhere?

I think that you are correct!

Strikes Out Looking
07-27-2009, 07:15 PM
Are we all starting to feel like Charley Brown yet?

Falls City Beer
07-27-2009, 07:24 PM
Are we all starting to feel like Charley Brown yet?

Sometimes smoke is just dry ice.

savafan
07-27-2009, 07:29 PM
http://twitter.com/PeteAbe/statuses/2879489096

The Arroyo-to-the-Yankees thing? Yeah, not so much. Shot down by the Yanks.

DoogMinAmo
07-27-2009, 07:32 PM
If Arroyo has a lights-out start tomorrow, then that might get him out of here.

Sabo Fan
07-27-2009, 07:33 PM
So what kind of package would it take to get Nick Swisher here? I'm too lazy to look, but is he even playing reguarly for the Yankees? I know he was struggling for a time after starting off hot so I guess I assumed Girardi just benched him. The Reds likely don't have the pieces to get him in a deal involving Arroyo but he would help now and in the future so management could point to that as evidence they aren't throwing in the towel.

Stormy
07-27-2009, 07:41 PM
My own intuition tells me that if anything is imminent, it's very minor. Everyone is either bemoaning or rationalizing BCast's words, but I actually believe that he means them. These guys think they are likely to reel off several consecutive wins playing one of the only teams in the NL worse than themselves (and I agree that a small win streak might be imminent). Given the realities of the NL Central, that buys more time to let the 'we're not far from contending' charade continue. Ultimately, this gives the F.O. cover for minimal activity at the deadline, which I expect.

Prove me wrong, Walt.

RFS62
07-27-2009, 07:46 PM
Prove me wrong, Walt.


Don't count on it.

We're stuck in baseball limbo. An owner afraid to gut the team and start over and not willing to put enough money into it to make a real difference.

Reds Fanatic
07-27-2009, 07:52 PM
Another update from Fox Sports:


Well, Bronson Arroyo is scheduled to pitch for the Reds on Tuesday after all.

An error on the team's website (since corrected) inadvertently gave the impression that Arroyo had been scratched from Tuesday's start.

"Arroyo always has been scheduled to pitch, and will pitch, tomorrow for the Reds," team spokesman Rob Butcher said in an e-mail.

Earlier Monday, Fanhouse.com reported that the Reds are in "serious discussions" with the Yankees about a trade involving Arroyo. One source with knowledge of the talks told FOXSports.com that nothing is imminent, although Arroyo is on the Yankees' list of potential pitching acquisitions.

The Yankees believe the amount of money remaining on his contract is prohibitive. Arroyo is due to earn $11 million next year, and the Reds currently hold a team option for 2011.

TheNext44
07-27-2009, 08:01 PM
From RedReporter twitter:

RT: @owensjp: CoCo Harang & Bronson are in w/ dusty. word around the office a deal is close for one of them & maybe all three #reds intern

http://twitter.com/Redreporter

Dusty:
"Bronson, just got a new Bose sound system at home, think you could come over and fix the levels for me? And Aaron, been trying to lose that tire around my waist, think you could give me your dieting secrets? And Coco, where'd you get that jacket you wore the other day? Very sharp!"

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 09:25 PM
Now they're letting interns make deals!?

Awe. Some.

At least someone's making a deal

OnBaseMachine
07-27-2009, 10:41 PM
9:14pm: Jon Heyman of SI.com tweets that the Yankees said a deal was "not realistic at this point," implying that Arroyo was making too much money for their liking.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

WMR
07-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Who are the Yanks to quibble over a few million?

JaxRed
07-27-2009, 10:51 PM
But what about that intern report? :)

Highlifeman21
07-27-2009, 10:55 PM
But what about that intern report? :)

Methinks the intern might no longer be an intern...

redsmetz
07-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Don't count on it.

We're stuck in baseball limbo. An owner afraid to gut the team and start over and not willing to put enough money into it to make a real difference.

I just find it astounding that there are posters calling on the team to be gutted and start over. And then folks complain about the endless turmoil and failure to make any progress. You keep tearing the darn thing down and you'll be running in place forever. I'm not against making some moves, but if it's a tear down, I'll be very disappointed.

Jpup
07-27-2009, 11:10 PM
Wow. :thumbdown

traderumor
07-27-2009, 11:39 PM
9:14pm: Jon Heyman of SI.com tweets that the Yankees said a deal was "not realistic at this point," implying that Arroyo was making too much money for their liking.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/That's laughable, it really is. They have thrown more money toward worse.

cincrazy
07-27-2009, 11:41 PM
That's laughable, it really is. They have thrown more money toward worse.

All pity the Yankees because they can't afford to take on Arroyo's contract. Poor babies.

Team Clark
07-28-2009, 12:14 AM
Interesting info TC. If they do deal for Rolen, they need to get at least as much can as they send to NY (or whomever) with Arroyo

A little surprised a deal has not been announced as of yet. Just a hunch, but maybe the finances are too strong for BCast. We all now there is "room" under the cap so to speak but just how much is the real question. From what little I have read and some of what I have heard, every domino is waiting on a Halladay deal. Personally, I am beginning to believe that is not going to happen. The Phillies are buyers and have offered some decent packages, if not the STRONGEST package. If Harang goes to Philly I expect the Reds will receive Happ and some fodder. Drabek isn't going anywhere for anyone LESS than Halladay.

I would not at all be surprised to see Arroyo land in Anaheim. There is an outside possibility of him going to Texas. I'd like to see Aybar for Arroyo. Throw in Andruw Jones and I would be tickled. (Not gonna happen... I think) I do believe he will land in NY before Anaheim or Texas get too deep into the mix.

VR
07-28-2009, 12:17 AM
Wouldn't mind gambling on another Arroyo start. If he can throw up a7+ inning of 2 runs or less.....the price goes up, significantly.

Team Clark
07-28-2009, 12:23 AM
If I'm an intern with the Reds.... the LAST thing I do is blog by calling myself Reds Intern

You'd be surprised! Real surprised.

kaldaniels
07-28-2009, 12:30 AM
Wouldn't mind gambling on another Arroyo start. If he can throw up a7+ inning of 2 runs or less.....the price goes up, significantly.

Playing the Pads helps matters with regard to this. On the other hand if he gives up a 9 spot in the first inning...he may be ours to keep. Interesting dynamic regarding his start tommorrow...easily the trade effect it may have is larger than the single one game win or loss tomorrow...if he throws a gem it may pay off dividends...

Yeah I know GM's are smarter than to just look at one start...but it just takes one with an itchy trigger finger.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 12:34 AM
Playing the Pads helps matters with regard to this. On the other hand if he gives up a 9 spot in the first inning...he may be ours to keep. Interesting dynamic regarding his start tommorrow...easily the trade effect it may have is larger than the single one game win or loss tomorrow...if he throws a gem it may pay off dividends...

Yeah I know GM's are smarter than to just look at one start...but it just takes one with an itchy trigger finger.

Even scouts have emotions. You are correct. If Arroyo goes out there and throws a gem, that could have enough of a difference in the world as to whether a GM makes a trade for him or passes completely.

corkedbat
07-28-2009, 12:49 AM
A little surprised a deal has not been announced as of yet. Just a hunch, but maybe the finances are too strong for BCast. We all now there is "room" under the cap so to speak but just how much is the real question. From what little I have read and some of what I have heard, every domino is waiting on a Halladay deal. Personally, I am beginning to believe that is not going to happen. The Phillies are buyers and have offered some decent packages, if not the STRONGEST package. If Harang goes to Philly I expect the Reds will receive Happ and some fodder. Drabek isn't going anywhere for anyone LESS than Halladay.

I would not at all be surprised to see Arroyo land in Anaheim. There is an outside possibility of him going to Texas. I'd like to see Aybar for Arroyo. Throw in Andruw Jones and I would be tickled. (Not gonna happen... I think) I do believe he will land in NY before Anaheim or Texas get too deep into the mix.

Harang for Happ? Sign me up!

WVRedsFan
07-28-2009, 12:53 AM
But what about that intern report? :)

A plant. Many on here don't know I do a little reporting on auto racing. Back in 1996, I was a rookie and young and a guy in a team uniform started a conversation with me and told me all kinds of "inside information." I ran with it and printed it on the motorsportsforum.com and it was picked up by a lot of the regular guys, many names you would recognize. It was a plant to help negotiations between a driver and a team. I was used.

My guess is that the "intern" was someone who was told this and ran with it on Twitter. It served a purpose. We'll know what purpose in the next few days.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 01:01 AM
A plant. Many on here don't know I do a little reporting on auto racing. Back in 1996, I was a rookie and young and a guy in a team uniform started a conversation with me and told me all kinds of "inside information." I ran with it and printed it on the motorsportsforum.com and it was picked up by a lot of the regular guys, many names you would recognize. It was a plant to help negotiations between a driver and a team. I was used.

My guess is that the "intern" was someone who was told this and ran with it on Twitter. It served a purpose. We'll know what purpose in the next few days.

These things happen a ton. More than anyone ever realizes.

College football and basketball coaches use this in recruiting. Agents use unsuspecting reporters as pawns. Baseball and basketball general managers float information regarding trades as leverage.

Team Clark
07-28-2009, 01:05 AM
A plant. Many on here don't know I do a little reporting on auto racing. Back in 1996, I was a rookie and young and a guy in a team uniform started a conversation with me and told me all kinds of "inside information." I ran with it and printed it on the motorsportsforum.com and it was picked up by a lot of the regular guys, many names you would recognize. It was a plant to help negotiations between a driver and a team. I was used.

My guess is that the "intern" was someone who was told this and ran with it on Twitter. It served a purpose. We'll know what purpose in the next few days.

Couldn't agree more. :thumbup:

acredsfan
07-28-2009, 01:34 AM
I just wonder how much of a baseball front office really knows exactly what's going on and how many are used as pawns. I know GMs need a select few that they can really trust, but that usually also means they are trusted not to leak such information. I guess Team Clark can give me a better idea, but I'd suspect that only the GM and owner truly know what is happening.

Big Klu
07-28-2009, 02:52 AM
A plant. Many on here don't know I do a little reporting on auto racing. Back in 1996, I was a rookie and young and a guy in a team uniform started a conversation with me and told me all kinds of "inside information." I ran with it and printed it on the motorsportsforum.com and it was picked up by a lot of the regular guys, many names you would recognize. It was a plant to help negotiations between a driver and a team. I was used.

My guess is that the "intern" was someone who was told this and ran with it on Twitter. It served a purpose. We'll know what purpose in the next few days.

Ahhh, just like Midway. The fresh water condensers are malfunctioning, and there is a water shortage on the island.

Misinformation at its finest. Perhaps to find a leak?

Blitz Dorsey
07-28-2009, 02:56 AM
Uh, we're not the Cardinals (or other real MLB teams). We don't make these things called "moves."

Ron Madden
07-28-2009, 03:49 AM
Castellini isn't ready to sell players
Posted by JohnFay at 7/27/2009 5:17 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The perception around baseball is that the Reds are ready to sell. But the man who will ultimately make that call, CEO Bob Castellini, says he’s not to that point.

“I believe we’re not at that point,” he said. “If we can get our pitching to show up and get our hitting to show up, we’re still possibly contenders.


Yea, Yea, Yea, and if Raisor's Aunt had wheels she'd be a wagon.

Ron Madden
07-28-2009, 04:20 AM
I just find it astounding that there are posters calling on the team to be gutted and start over. And then folks complain about the endless turmoil and failure to make any progress. You keep tearing the darn thing down and you'll be running in place forever. I'm not against making some moves, but if it's a tear down, I'll be very disappointed.

Don't you see that's the problem. This team hasn't made the post season since 1995. Since then the've beenrunning in place. They refuse to tear it down and start over and they refuse to spend enough money to go for it.

It's about time to do one or the other because you can't do both at the same time.

BearcatShane
07-28-2009, 04:36 AM
I really, really hope they trade Arroyo before the deadline. Even if the return is not that great. When he's on, he's pretty good. But when he's bad he won't even keep you in the game.

Ltlabner
07-28-2009, 05:58 AM
If he comes out and says "our goal is to win in 2010," then people stop coming to the ballpark the rest of the year even if the Reds can field a half-decent team. That's the psychology of the situation.

Note: People have stopped coming to the ballpark despite whatever quote that owner gives out and most casual fans will never read/hear about.

The Reds have maneuvered themselves in the same level as the movies, community theater and the kids soccer practice. They better quit worrying about trying to fake out the fans and start worrying about providing a reason to come to the ballpark.

Ltlabner
07-28-2009, 06:00 AM
My own intuition tells me that if anything is imminent, it's very minor. Everyone is either bemoaning or rationalizing BCast's words, but I actually believe that he means them. These guys think they are likely to reel off several consecutive wins playing one of the only teams in the NL worse than themselves (and I agree that a small win streak might be imminent). Given the realities of the NL Central, that buys more time to let the 'we're not far from contending' charade continue. Ultimately, this gives the F.O. cover for minimal activity at the deadline, which I expect.

Prove me wrong, Walt.

Bingo.

We'll see some moves like the aformentioned Randa for Germano/Chick deals. Nothing more although they might deal EE for Rolen (and then do nothing else) and try to package it as "a real step towards winning more baseball games.

Bozo Bob really thinks were "just this close".

This organization is flat out clueless.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 07:03 AM
Bingo.

We'll see some moves like the aformentioned Randa for Germano/Chick deals. Nothing more although they might deal EE for Rolen (and then do nothing else) and try to package it as "a real step towards winning more baseball games.

Bozo Bob really thinks were "just this close".

This organization is flat out clueless.

What are you looking for Walt to do?

membengal
07-28-2009, 07:08 AM
Good grief edabbs. That's been covered ad naseum in a companion thread on this here forum. In the last day. With stuff from that poster and a bunch of others. Enjoy the read.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77516

Ltlabner
07-28-2009, 07:40 AM
What are you looking for Walt to do?

I expect Walt to put together a baseball team that wins (hopefully a bunch) more games than it loses. What's so damned confusing about that?

And I don't really care how he does it. The onus is on him, as GM, to make the moves to accomplish that. The onus on me, as a fan, to is either approve of disapprove as shown through words (on RZ for example) or actions (going to more/less baseball games). That is how the GM/fan relationship works.

The weight is not on me to provide Walt a step-by-step plan that he simply has to follow to accomplish his goal. Doesn't mean most of us won't throw out sure-fire ideas to fix the team (because we will), but the weight simply isn't on me to do the GM's job. It's on the GM.

Thus far Walt ain't cutting it.

Highlifeman21
07-28-2009, 07:49 AM
I expect Walt to put together a baseball team that wins (hopefully a bunch) more games than it loses. What's so damned confusing about that?

And I don't really care how he does it. The onus is on him, as GM, to make the moves to accomplish that. The onus on me, as a fan, to is either approve of disapprove as shown through words (on RZ for example) or actions (going to more/less baseball games). That is how the GM/fan relationship works.

The weight is not on me to provide Walt a step-by-step plan that he simply has to follow to accomplish his goal. Doesn't mean most of us won't throw out sure-fire ideas to fix the team (because we will), but the weight simply isn't on me to do the GM's job. It's on the GM.

Thus far Walt ain't cutting it.

But we're supposed to give Walt a free pass, remember?

He's done nothing to deserve all this criticism, right?

He's still dealing with Wayne's bad contracts, or so we've been told?

Strikes Out Looking
07-28-2009, 07:49 AM
I expect Walt to put together a baseball team that wins (hopefully a bunch) more games than it loses. What's so damned confusing about that?

And I don't really care how he does it. The onus is on him, as GM, to make the moves to accomplish that. The onus on me, as a fan, to is either approve of disapprove as shown through words (on RZ for example) or actions (going to more/less baseball games). That is how the GM/fan relationship works.

The weight is not on me to provide Walt a step-by-step plan that he simply has to follow to accomplish his goal. Doesn't mean most of us won't throw out sure-fire ideas to fix the team (because we will), but the weight simply isn't on me to do the GM's job. It's on the GM.

Thus far Walt ain't cutting it.

With Walt and Bob, it's like Deja vu all over again as I get the feeling that Carl Linder and Dick Wagner are back.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 08:04 AM
I expect Walt to put together a baseball team that wins (hopefully a bunch) more games than it loses. What's so damned confusing about that?

And I don't really care how he does it. The onus is on him, as GM, to make the moves to accomplish that. The onus on me, as a fan, to is either approve of disapprove as shown through words (on RZ for example) or actions (going to more/less baseball games). That is how the GM/fan relationship works.

The weight is not on me to provide Walt a step-by-step plan that he simply has to follow to accomplish his goal. Doesn't mean most of us won't throw out sure-fire ideas to fix the team (because we will), but the weight simply isn't on me to do the GM's job. It's on the GM.

Thus far Walt ain't cutting it.

Totally agree. However, I think that it is reasonable to ask in general terms. Just saying that you expect him to put a winner on the field is fine and all, but it might be unreasonable at this juncture. When you say that you want him to put together a winner, are you expecting a winner next year? 3 years from now? What would be some general steps you think he would need to take to meet that goal? Should he be looking to move some payroll off the books right now? Who might those candidates be?

Just crying out that he needs to put together a winner is very hollow. I think it is a foregone conclusion that we won't be seeing NYY style money pouring out the door so this isn't a very easy job, especially in the short term. So, IMO, this will take a little time. I get the feeling that any move he makes (unless he somehow gets Pujols for Maloney) will not meet your expectations right now since you're expectations are probably quite high for right now. That's why I asked what you think he should do. Generally. I think everyone wants him to put together a winner, so putting those posts on repeat isn't really bringing much to the table.

There have been so many posts regarding what walt should have done last year, like go get Generic Power Hitting LFer, OBP Monger CFer and Young Talented SS. Yet many of those expectations, when actually given some thought, were fairly unreasonable. We sometimes think that it is easy for a GM to go and get someone when there are so many things to think about. Payroll, availability of said players, demands from player regarding contract, demands from other team if you need to trade for that person, etc. These guys aren't baseball cards. You can't just go and trade for the guy you want just because you want him.

So generally (but more specifically than "put together a winner"),what are your expectations?

That's not unreasonable to ask for by any stretch.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 08:04 AM
He's still dealing with Wayne's bad contracts, or so we've been told?

Rumor has it that the Yankees don't want to take on Arroyo b/c of his contract.

The Friggin Yankees.

Give me a break.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 08:08 AM
Good grief edabbs. That's been covered ad naseum in a companion thread on this here forum. In the last day. With stuff from that poster and a bunch of others. Enjoy the read.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77516

Thanks Chuck.

However, hearing that the expectation is for Walt to put together a winner is kind of a cop out. That's like telling the doctor to get you all better by next week after he told you that you'll need 24 months of intensive physical therapy after you spend 6 months in the hospital.

You can't flip the switch and make a winner. Expecting a winner in the short term while looking at the current team, market conditions and financial situation is pretty unfair.

bucksfan2
07-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Totally agree. However, I think that it is reasonable to ask in general terms. Just saying that you expect him to put a winner on the field is fine and all, but it might be unreasonable at this juncture. When you say that you want him to put together a winner, are you expecting a winner next year? 3 years from now? What would be some general steps you think he would need to take to meet that goal? Should he be looking to move some payroll off the books right now? Who might those candidates be?

Just crying out that he needs to put together a winner is very hollow. I think it is a foregone conclusion that we won't be seeing NYY style money pouring out the door so this isn't a very easy job, especially in the short term. So, IMO, this will take a little time. I get the feeling that any move he makes (unless he somehow gets Pujols for Maloney) will not meet your expectations right now since you're expectations are probably quite high for right now. That's why I asked what you think he should do. Generally. I think everyone wants him to put together a winner, so putting those posts on repeat isn't really bringing much to the table.

There have been so many posts regarding what walt should have done last year, like go get Generic Power Hitting LFer, OBP Monger CFer and Young Talented SS. Yet many of those expectations, when actually given some thought, were fairly unreasonable. We sometimes think that it is easy for a GM to go and get someone when there are so many things to think about. Payroll, availability of said players, demands from player regarding contract, demands from other team if you need to trade for that person, etc. These guys aren't baseball cards. You can't just go and trade for the guy you want just because you want him.

So generally (but more specifically than "put together a winner"),what are your expectations?

That's not unreasonable to ask for by any stretch.

Well said.

The bolded part has become a major contention of mine on RZ. Those types of guys are big time commodities in MLB. They don't come cheap. If they are entering FA they will likely sign a big time deal. If they aren't eligible for FA then they carry a lot of trade weight.

Saying I want a winning team is like saying I want to lose 20 pounds. Its not easy and it takes time and effort. I guess WJ should just cast his magic wand over the Cards organization and steal Pujols for some middling A ball prospects. Or as one WLW caller mentioned, lets trade Taveras and Gomes to Seattle for Ichiro and Jr.

osuceltic
07-28-2009, 09:37 AM
A plant. Many on here don't know I do a little reporting on auto racing. Back in 1996, I was a rookie and young and a guy in a team uniform started a conversation with me and told me all kinds of "inside information." I ran with it and printed it on the motorsportsforum.com and it was picked up by a lot of the regular guys, many names you would recognize. It was a plant to help negotiations between a driver and a team. I was used.

My guess is that the "intern" was someone who was told this and ran with it on Twitter. It served a purpose. We'll know what purpose in the next few days.

Not to get too far off topic, but wanted to follow up on this great post.

Newspapers are dying for a lot of reasons, many of them self-inflicted. A lot of people don't care, because so much information is available on the Internent. But situations like this are why we should care. A good journalist (emphasis on the word "good") doesn't get played like this. A blogger's most common defense is "I was just reporting what I was told" but that isn't a legitimate defense for a legitimate journalist.

Anyway, I'm going to miss good journalism.

icehole3
07-28-2009, 09:40 AM
Well said.

The bolded part has become a major contention of mine on RZ. Those types of guys are big time commodities in MLB. They don't come cheap. If they are entering FA they will likely sign a big time deal. If they aren't eligible for FA then they carry a lot of trade weight.

Saying I want a winning team is like saying I want to lose 20 pounds. Its not easy and it takes time and effort. I guess WJ should just cast his magic wand over the Cards organization and steal Pujols for some middling A ball prospects. Or as one WLW caller mentioned, lets trade Taveras and Gomes to Seattle for Ichiro and Jr.

thats been my opinion since day one as well :thumbup:

REDREAD
07-28-2009, 09:54 AM
I just find it astounding that there are posters calling on the team to be gutted and start over. And then folks complain about the endless turmoil and failure to make any progress. You keep tearing the darn thing down and you'll be running in place forever. I'm not against making some moves, but if it's a tear down, I'll be very disappointed.

Yep. I'm not ready to tear the team down either. What is that going to lead to? 4 more seasons of crappy baseball, and then we get to look forward to trading Votto, Bruce, Ceuto, and Volquez to rebuild all over again (because after all, they are going to be expensive then).

At some point, you have to keep a few of your good players and actually try to improve the team. Looks like Arroyo's salary is going to be burdensome to move in a trade, and Cast is not willing to kick in money. Oh well, in hindsight extending Arroyo looks like a mistake. However, I still defend Wayne on this decision. Even though the $$ were a little bit high, at some point you have to make an effort to actually keep your players for more than 2 years.

Just giving away Arroyo for salary relief sets the team back. Kicking in money to get a decent prospect doesn't make a lot of sense either (assuming we would have to kick in millions).


I know there's a lot of gloom and doom here. I understand that. Even if nothing happens this summer, we are getting rid of Hernandez and AGon's contracts. That will free up some money.

traderumor
07-28-2009, 09:56 AM
Thanks Chuck.

However, hearing that the expectation is for Walt to put together a winner is kind of a cop out. That's like telling the doctor to get you all better by next week after he told you that you'll need 24 months of intensive physical therapy after you spend 6 months in the hospital.

You can't flip the switch and make a winner. Expecting a winner in the short term while looking at the current team, market conditions and financial situation is pretty unfair.Walt has been on the job for approx. 18 months. Castellini came along in 2006. Everyone has had plenty of time to have surgery, recover and start living differently to prevent a relapse. But the Reds have refused surgery, refuse to change their lifestyle, and expect their disease to just go away all by itself.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 10:07 AM
Walt has been on the job for approx. 18 months. Castellini came along in 2006. Everyone has had plenty of time to have surgery, recover and start living differently to prevent a relapse. But the Reds have refused surgery, refuse to change their lifestyle, and expect their disease to just go away all by itself.

Understood, however it is tough to blame Walt for inactivity if much of that is caused by the doings of his predecessor or the financial crisis.

But something has to give at some point. Those excuses expire for me by OD of next year.

traderumor
07-28-2009, 10:11 AM
Understood, however it is tough to blame Walt for inactivity if much of that is caused by the doings of his predecessor or the financial crisis.

But something has to give at some point. Those excuses expire for me by OD of next year.True, it is not much of a bargaining position when the discussion turns to "so, you want me to take your overpaid, average or below average starter and pay the rest of the contract AND give you some bodies in return?"

nate
07-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Totally agree. However, I think that it is reasonable to ask in general terms. Just saying that you expect him to put a winner on the field is fine and all, but it might be unreasonable at this juncture. When you say that you want him to put together a winner, are you expecting a winner next year? 3 years from now? What would be some general steps you think he would need to take to meet that goal? Should he be looking to move some payroll off the books right now? Who might those candidates be?

Just crying out that he needs to put together a winner is very hollow. I think it is a foregone conclusion that we won't be seeing NYY style money pouring out the door so this isn't a very easy job, especially in the short term. So, IMO, this will take a little time. I get the feeling that any move he makes (unless he somehow gets Pujols for Maloney) will not meet your expectations right now since you're expectations are probably quite high for right now. That's why I asked what you think he should do. Generally. I think everyone wants him to put together a winner, so putting those posts on repeat isn't really bringing much to the table.

There have been so many posts regarding what walt should have done last year, like go get Generic Power Hitting LFer, OBP Monger CFer and Young Talented SS. Yet many of those expectations, when actually given some thought, were fairly unreasonable. We sometimes think that it is easy for a GM to go and get someone when there are so many things to think about. Payroll, availability of said players, demands from player regarding contract, demands from other team if you need to trade for that person, etc. These guys aren't baseball cards. You can't just go and trade for the guy you want just because you want him.

So generally (but more specifically than "put together a winner"),what are your expectations?

That's not unreasonable to ask for by any stretch.

All of your questions have been discussed, dissected, deliberated, detailed, debated to the most picayune degree on this very forum. To say there have been no specifics regarding any of these issues is disingenuous at best.

flyer85
07-28-2009, 10:42 AM
My expectation is that the trade deadline will produce a fizzle rather than a bang

BRM
07-28-2009, 10:46 AM
My expectation is that the trade deadline will produce a fizzle rather than a bang

Sounds like nearly every trade deadline in Reds country.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 10:49 AM
All of your questions have been discussed, dissected, deliberated, detailed, debated to the most picayune degree on this very forum. To say there have been no specifics regarding any of these issues is disingenuous at best.

My questions were directed to one person only.

I didn't think that his concerns were detailed as much as others have been, so I was curious as to the specifics.

klw
07-28-2009, 10:51 AM
I am just hoping for a Reds season in which the time after the trade deadline is as exciting as the week leading up to it. It is frustrating having Septembers which are only interesting to see how the call ups are doing- especially as there are few potential interesting ones on the 40 man right now. I love the nonwaiver deadline excitement but I wish there was meaningful Reds baseball played after it.

edabbs44
07-28-2009, 10:54 AM
Front offices, players, agents driven 'crazy' over trade rumors

By Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY
Roy Halladay, the crème de la crème of the trade market, will be dealt to the Philadelphia Phillies, beating the Toronto Blue Jays' self-imposed deadline of tonight.
Oops, scratch that. He now is going to the Los Angeles Angels.

Wait, that can't be true, since the Angels won't give up pitcher Joe Saunders, so the Blue Jays ace is headed to the Boston Red Sox. Or is it the New York Yankees? The Detroit Tigers? The Hanshin Tigers?

"I can't keep up with all of it myself, and we're the ones who are making the decision," says Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi. "It's crazy what's going on out there. There are rumors, atop of rumors, atop of rumors, atop of rumors.

"We know what the truth is, and we can laugh about it. But when it gets it out there, now you've got to explain to the player why it's not true. Why that team never called. You spend half of the time putting out fires and never getting anything done."


ROUNDTABLE: Discuss the latest trades and rumors, noon ET
JULY 7 ARCHIVE: Jays willing to listen to Halladay trade offers
Ricciardi's plight is echoed by many of his peers. They believe baseball's rumor mill, which long has stoked fan interest in the game, is on the verge of spinning off its axis.

Shifting dynamics within the news media have placed an even greater emphasis on immediacy. Increased competition and the ability for almost anyone — veteran newsman, online reporter or independent blogger — to report both rumor and fact has at times blurred the lines between both.

The magical date for those enthralled with baseball transactions is July 31 — the non-waivers trade deadline.

And until Friday comes, baseball executives will spend a disproportionate amount of time addressing rumors rather than closing deals.

'Standards have dropped'

Many have personal tales of controlling damage

It was just last week when SI.com reported that the New York Mets rejected a deal that would have sent four of their top prospects for Halladay. The radio shows buzzed. TV commentators opined. The Mets' prospects wondered if they needed to get their visas and pack their bags.

There was just one problem.

There wasn't a shred of truth to the report.

"It was absolutely wrong," Ricciardi says. "We didn't exchange names with the Mets. I felt so bad for [Mets GM] Omar [Minaya] because there was no truth to it. None. Now, he's the one who has to answer why they didn't get Halladay.

"There's so much information out there, people are making things up."

This spring, the Atlanta-Journal Constitution reported that Ken Griffey Jr. had agreed to a free-agent contract with the Atlanta Braves. He may have been close, but the only contract he signed was with the Seattle Mariners.

"That was just one of a handful of bad reports last winter," says Tim Dierkes, whose website, mlbtraderumors.com, aggregates and disseminates the information on a minute-to-minute basis.

There were the false reports last winter that the Chicago White Sox traded right fielder Jermaine Dye to the Cincinnati Reds for pitcher Homer Bailey. There was the MLB.com report last July that the Tampa Bay Rays acquired Jason Bay from the Pittsburgh Pirates. Bay was traded an hour later to the Boston Red Sox in the three-way deal that sent Manny Ramirez to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Then there was the New York Daily News offseason report that the Yankees were mulling re-signing Carl Pavano, although GM Brian Cashman says it was never remotely considered.

"The thing that bothers me in this day and age is that nobody really cares about being wrong," says Ken Rosenthal of Foxsports.com, who noted he corrected an error in one of his online reports within an hour of its original post Sunday.

"When I started," says Rosenthal, who has covered baseball since 1984, "the biggest sin of all was to be wrong. But it just blows my mind that people don't feel bad about being wrong. Our standards have dropped. And it bothers the hell out of me."

ESPN analyst Peter Gammons, perhaps the pioneer in procuring information during the trade deadline, can't keep up anymore with the latest minute-by-minute updates of trade talks. Everyone with a computer is chiming in.

"This stuff is just driving everybody crazy, and it's getting worse and worse," Gammons says. "It's like there's 10 new trade rumors on the Internet every hour. There is so much stuff thrown out there, people can't differentiate between fact and fiction.

"People have an insatiable thirst for this stuff, but GMs get so tied down with this stuff, you can't even get ahold of them this time of year. It's just insane."

And while nothing excites fans like a blockbuster deal, GMs say the rumor mill has been responsible for killing deals. Trade talks become public in their initial stages, which leads to fan discussion and debates. And if the reaction becomes negative, teams may opt to back out.

Kevin Towers, general manager of the San Diego Padres, is convinced reports involving ace Jake Peavy going to the Chicago Cubs last winter forced the trade to dissolve.

"It became so public, so counterproductive to [Cubs GM] Jim Hendry and I," Towers says, "the deal didn't get done. There was too much public knowledge, and so many players being mentioned, it got out of hand. I really sensed we were close to a deal, but once it got out in the open, Jim said he was pulling the plug. I don't blame him."

Said Hendry: "It certainly didn't help. I'd leave Kevin's room and the same names we talked about were on the Internet two hours later. It certainly puts a damper on a lot of things. All of us would prefer the days when deals would be announced (at a news conference). But those days are over. The stuff that gets out there now drives all of us crazy."

It's rare these days when deals are done without the slightest leak. The Chicago White Sox quietly worked out a trade last May for Peavy, and if not for Peavy exercising his no-trade clause, no one would have known they even talked. To this day, Towers has never publicly confirmed the deal was even done.

"You never know what you're going to hear," says Towers, who rejected overtures from the Red Sox seeking first baseman Adrian Gonzalez last week. "One time I'm pulling into my driveway in San Diego, and I hear, 'There's breaking news on the high-speed newswire. Kevin Towers is in Orlando, working on 10-player deal. Should they do it, or should they not?' Here I am in San Diego, and everyone in town is weighing in on a trade that wasn't even happening."

Oakland A's GM Billy Beane traded outfielder Matt Holliday last week to the St. Louis Cardinals, but not until dismissing print, online and broadcast reports he was discussing sending Holliday across the bay to the San Francisco Giants.

"It's more annoying than anything else," Beane says. "You spend 50% of your day shooting down false rumors. It doesn't hinder your ability to make a trade, but it takes a lot of time. More than anything, it can mislead your fan base."

Misleading reports

In the era of the 24-hour news cycle, heightened competition means more chances to make mistakes.

Many print reporters also blog and tweet developments immediately. Every team has an official website with a beat reporter. National websites, with no home team to cover, instead aggressively report on all 30 teams.

The mad dash for exclusive information sometimes turns ugly.

There was never a more misleading report, Beane says, than the reported three-team deal two years ago. The A's were trading starter Dan Haren in a blockbuster with pitcher Johan Santana of the Minnesota Twins and shortstop Jose Reyes of the New York Mets.

"That was just absolutely ridiculous," Beane says. "It was absurd."

It was also fabricated.

Dierkes says a news reporter, having fun at the expense of mlbtraderumors.com, sent a fictitious e-mail saying the deal was going down. He believed the e-mail was from a New York reporter, who claimed he couldn't get the trade into his own paper, but wanted to pass it along.

"I don't know if I was naive," says Dierkes, who has operated his site since November 2005, "but I bought it hook, line and sinker. The guy even threw in bit prospects to add legitimacy to it. As soon as it got out, I saw all of these quotes from Billy Beane saying it was the worst rumor ever.

"I'm thinking, 'Oh, no, what did I do?' It was a horrible thing to publish. It produced a lot of traffic, but it was bad for the site.

"Ever since then, I've taken a double filter, especially if it's from a random guy."

It's this cautious approach, Dierkes said, that prevented the site from breaking the story last week in which Cardinals outfielder Chris Duncan was traded to Boston for shortstop Julio Lugo. Dierkes was swamped with e-mails, many he presumed were from Duncan's associates informing him of the trade. He did not publish the item until he confirmed with outside sources.

Players in limbo

Perhaps no one is affected more by trade rumors than players. They call their agents. The agents call the front office. And sometimes, even when the front office tells a player there's no truth to the rumors, it does no good.

"There are a lot of things that get put out in the public arena," Cashman says, "that in many cases just aren't accurate. You have to talk to your players. You may have to talk to your beat writers. It's unsettling."

Cincinnati Reds GM Walt Jocketty, formerly with St. Louis, watched shortstop Edgar Renteria struggle one season under the duress of trade rumors. He and manager Tony La Russa went to Renteria and tried to comfort him.

"We said, 'Look, Edgar, we are not trading you,' " Jocketty said. "'You've got to trust us on this.' But it wasn't until the trade deadline passed that he finally relaxed and he had a great last two months."

Renteria, now with the Giants, concedes he permitted the speculation to affect his performance, never quite believing Jocketty and La Russa.

"It was hard to concentrate when the people are [saying] you are about to get traded," Renteria says, "especially when you do not want to get traded. It distracts you little bit. A lot of people, not just me, start playing better after the deadline passes because they concentrate when they are on the field. You're human."

Agent Dave Stewart, former assistant general manager and 20-game winner for Oakland, says he has spent time the last two trade deadlines calming Dodgers outfielder Matt Kemp's fears. Kemp has learned to deal with the speculation, Stewart says, but still, it's a nuisance.

"Man, it's crazy," Stewart says. "Early on, yeah, he was worried about it. His family was worried about it. Last year, he was less worried about it, Now, he's not worrying about it at all.

"There's just so much sensationalizing out there, and this Halladay stuff is out of control."

Ricciardi, who fed the rumor mill by announcing they were going to listen to trade offers for Halladay, says his club likely won't trade him by today, their deadline.

So will this bring the Halladay rumor machine to a halt?

"No," Dierkes says, "Ricciardi has said a lot of things that haven't been entirely true or completely honest. So we're going to stick with it until Friday, because I really do believe he will be dealt.

"And I'm predicting the [Texas] Rangers."

Yes, that's the latest trade rumor.

Contributing: Ray Glier in Atlanta


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2009-07-27-base-trades_N.htm

flyer85
07-28-2009, 10:58 AM
all the stuff going on around a Halladay trade is highly amusing. The truth is out there and I am pretty sure what gets reported is more a case of certain front offices using the press to further their own ends.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 12:07 PM
all the stuff going on around a Halladay trade is highly amusing. The truth is out there and I am pretty sure what gets reported is more a case of certain front offices using the press to further their own ends.

Indeed. General Managers will leak information or use Peter Gammons as a sounding-board (for example) to see to it something gets out in the public, then they turn around and complain when a lot of unsubstantiated rumors are fueled after doing so.

They want to have it both ways. Use the media to employ their agenda but not have to deal with untruthful rumors.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2009, 12:45 PM
Indeed. General Managers will leak information or use Peter Gammons as a sounding-board (for example) to see to it something gets out in the public, then they turn around and complain when a lot of unsubstantiated rumors are fueled after doing so.

They want to have it both ways. Use the media to employ their agenda but not have to deal with untruthful rumors.

They'll also use guys like Gammons to goose the market (or at least try to) for certain guys.

You leak out there that the Yankees are after Bronson Arroyo and maybe the phone rings a few hours later with a few other teams kicking the tires to see if they can get him before New York does.

reds44
07-28-2009, 02:52 PM
This is from some Marlins website I follow on Twitter:

tealandblackFLA, CIN, NYY working on a three way? Marlins would trade Ross to NYY and acquire A. Rhodes and prospects
Then I did some investigating, and saw some "insider" on the soflamarlins.com said this

Cincinnati: Jeremy Hermida/Prospects
Yankees: Cody Ross and Arroyo
Florida: Arthur Rhodes, a bat/Prospects

Yeah, there's like a 0.5% chance this is true but I figured I'd post it anyways.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 03:05 PM
This is from some Marlins website I follow on Twitter:

Then I did some investigating, and saw some "insider" on the soflamarlins.com said this

Cincinnati: Jeremy Hermida/Prospects
Yankees: Cody Ross and Arroyo
Florida: Arthur Rhodes, a bat/Prospects

Yeah, there's like a 0.5% chance this is true but I figured I'd post it anyways.

It's not the most insane thing I've ever heard, but it does kind of leave me wondering who on earth will be playing LF & RF for the Marlins if both are traded. Brett Carroll is a guy the Marlins seem to like, but beyond that, I can't see them trading two outfielders in the same deal.

corkedbat
07-28-2009, 03:07 PM
This is from some Marlins website I follow on Twitter:

Then I did some investigating, and saw some "insider" on the soflamarlins.com said this

Cincinnati: Jeremy Hermida/Prospects
Yankees: Cody Ross and Arroyo
Florida: Arthur Rhodes, a bat/Prospects

Yeah, there's like a 0.5% chance this is true but I figured I'd post it anyways.

Guess it would depend on what prospects the Reds would receive. I take it with the Reds ponying up Arroyo & Rhodes, the prospects going to the Fish would be Yank prospects and not from the Reds System. I'd rather have Ross. I've liked Hermida's "potential in the past", but I've reached the point where I believe that's all there is. I'd hope that at least one of the prospects heading to Cincy would be of the special variety.

corkedbat
07-28-2009, 03:09 PM
It's not the most insane thing I've ever heard, but it does kind of leave me wondering who on earth will be playing LF & RF for the Marlins if both are traded. Brett Carroll is a guy the Marlins seem to like, but beyond that, I can't see them trading two outfielders in the same deal.

Maybe the "bat" headed their way is an OF. Cabrera possibly?

OnBaseMachine
07-28-2009, 03:21 PM
This is from some Marlins website I follow on Twitter:

Then I did some investigating, and saw some "insider" on the soflamarlins.com said this

Cincinnati: Jeremy Hermida/Prospects
Yankees: Cody Ross and Arroyo
Florida: Arthur Rhodes, a bat/Prospects

Yeah, there's like a 0.5% chance this is true but I figured I'd post it anyways.

I've said it before: Jeremy Hermida would be a great target for the Reds, IMO. He's got the talent to be an above average or better hitter. Just three years ago he was ranked the #4 prospect in all of baseball, and he's still only 25 years old. I think he could use a change of scenery as a move from the spacious Marlins Stadium to GABP could only help.

Jeremy Hermida - career home/away splits

Home: 861 plate appearances, .253/.327/.400 - .727 OPS

Away: 952 plate appearances, .272/.354/.451 - .805 OPS

Get him Walt.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 03:21 PM
Maybe the "bat" headed their way is an OF. Cabrera possibly?

I missed the "a bat" part of that, so yeah that would make a bit more sense, actually.

That kind of trade is at least a realistic type. Obviously the odds are well stacked against it happening even if it's being discussed. But at least it's something that would make sense for teams to do.

Brutus
07-28-2009, 03:23 PM
I've said it before: Jeremy Hermida would be a great target for the Reds, IMO. He's got the talent to be an above average or better hitter. Just three years ago he was ranked the #4 prospect in all of baseball, and he's still only 25 years old. I think he could use a change of scenery as a move from the spacious Marlins Stadium to GABP could only help.

Jeremy Hermida - career home/away splits

Home: 861 plate appearances, .253/.327/.400 - .727 OPS

Away: 952 plate appearances, .272/.354/.451 - .805 OPS

Get him Walt.

I would be tremendously happy if the Reds were able to acquire Hermida and also Ian Snell. Upside galore with both. Not even taking into account the possibility of Rolen or whomever the Reds could get if they traded Harang, those two acquisitions would please me as fliers.

pahster
07-28-2009, 03:26 PM
I've said it before: Jeremy Hermida would be a great target for the Reds, IMO. He's got the talent to be an above average or better hitter. Just three years ago he was ranked the #4 prospect in all of baseball, and he's still only 25 years old. I think he could use a change of scenery as a move from the spacious Marlins Stadium to GABP could only help.

Jeremy Hermida - career home/away splits

Home: 861 plate appearances, .253/.327/.400 - .727 OPS

Away: 952 plate appearances, .272/.354/.451 - .805 OPS

Get him Walt.

What's he like on defense?