PDA

View Full Version : Roy Halladay / Cliff Lee



Brutus
07-28-2009, 12:15 AM
You know, I can tell many folks here, understandably, are frustrated and feel like the Yankees news of passing on Bronson Arroyo gives the feeling the Reds won't get anything done. I was thinking, though, that the Blue Jays' and Indians' reported stingy demands for Halladay and Lee will help the Reds the next three days.

If those teams continue to hold out for a ransom, there's an awful lot of teams out there needing pitching. I think someone might overpay for Arroyo or Harang if things hold the way they have.

When I say overpay, I do not suggest the Reds will get a fleecing that will make everyone here happy, but I think they could still get more value than perhaps their actual worth.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 01:48 PM
Looks a trade is going down between the Phillies and the Indians for Cliff Lee, and Ben Francisco. The Indians are supposed to be getting some sort of lesser package than was demanded for Halladay but the names aren't clear yet.

If Lee is off the market, and Halladay isn't going to be moved, and the Mariners are buying, Harang is now the top arm on the market.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 01:50 PM
Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Philly for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. The teams still have to examine medical records for the deal to go through.

Going down

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:04 PM
seems to me Halladay will stay put. The Pimp lost a lot of leverage with the Phillies off the table.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:16 PM
seems to me Halladay will stay put. The Pimp lost a lot of leverage with the Phillies off the table.

Ricciardi sounded pretty dejected about it, too. He priced himself right out of what could have been a pretty good trade. Still... there's the Dodgers and Rangers to keep the bidding going on Halladay.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Ricciardi sounded pretty dejected about it, too. He priced himself right out of what could have been a pretty good trade. Still... there's the Dodgers and Rangers to keep the bidding going on Halladay.
we don't know what the Phillies offered but the Dodgers don't have much a recent history for dealing away top prospects.

BRM
07-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Ricciardi sounded pretty dejected about it, too. He priced himself right out of what could have been a pretty good trade. Still... there's the Dodgers and Rangers to keep the bidding going on Halladay.

Are the Rangers really willing to go all-in on Halladay?

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 03:25 PM
Time for the Reds to jump in. Alonso, Stubbs/Heisey, Roenicke and Homer/Stewart/Wood.

I don't think Ricciardi will do better than that. In fact, throw in EE and add Rolen from their end and we have a deal.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:29 PM
Are the Rangers really willing to go all-in on Halladay?

They seem to be willing to give up the prospects necessary, but it does not sound like they're willing to take Halladay without some additional cash thrown in. The Jays don't act as if they're going to do that.

*BaseClogger*
07-29-2009, 03:32 PM
What's so hard to understand about the fact that Halladay has a no-trade clause, sent the Blue Jays a list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to, and I'm 99% confident the Reds weren't on that list?

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 03:36 PM
What's so hard to understand about the fact that Halladay has a no-trade clause, sent the Blue Jays a list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to, and I'm 99% confident the Reds weren't on that list?

Maybe, maybe not. And maybe he'd waive it. If his choice is Cincinnati or going back to Toronto as a miserable lame duck for, potentially, another 18 months, he might just acquiesce and accept the deal.

Just please stop thinking small. I'm so sick of this franchise thinking small.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:38 PM
Are the Rangers really willing to go all-in on Halladay?

In order to afford him will Liverpool have sell Xabi Alonso for Real Madrid's asking price?

Somewhere all of Tom Hicks' pockets must merge as one.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:38 PM
Maybe, maybe not. And maybe he'd waive it. If his choice is Cincinnati or going back to Toronto as a miserable lame duck for, potentially, another 18 months, he might just acquiesce and accept the deal.

Just please stop thinking small. I'm so sick of this franchise thinking small.he'd be just as miserable a lame duck in Cincy as in Toronto.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:40 PM
Maybe, maybe not. And maybe he'd waive it. If his choice is Cincinnati or going back to Toronto as a miserable lame duck for, potentially, another 18 months, he might just acquiesce and accept the deal.

Just please stop thinking small. I'm so sick of this franchise thinking small.

More likely (if he was desperate to get out of Toronto and Cincinnati was the only place the Jays were willing to send him) he'd accept the trade to the Reds and then opt out of his deal at the end of the season, which I believe he's allowed to do on a multi-year contract.

I'm with you about not thinking small, but Halladay's a bit of a futile target.

*BaseClogger*
07-29-2009, 03:40 PM
Maybe, maybe not. And maybe he'd waive it. If his choice is Cincinnati or going back to Toronto as a miserable lame duck for, potentially, another 18 months, he might just acquiesce and accept the deal.

Just please stop thinking small. I'm so sick of this franchise thinking small.

"Maybe we could freeze the beer into ice blocks and skate on it and melt it in the spring time and drink it!"

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 03:45 PM
More likely (if he was desperate to get out of Toronto and Cincinnati was the only place the Jays were willing to send him) he'd accept the trade to the Reds and then opt out of his deal at the end of the season, which I believe he's allowed to do on a multi-year contract.

I'm with you about not thinking small, but Halladay's a bit of a futile target.

No, I think he's allowed to request a trade at the end of the season (someone correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case, then trade him in the offseason.


he'd be just as miserable a lame duck in Cincy as in Toronto.

Not necessarily. In Toronto, he would know he was part of a team that tried to trade him. He would know his team was no better than third best in the division with no hope for postseason play.

In Cincinnati, he would have a team that wanted him and a winnable division.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:08 PM
J.P. says he needs to be "wowed" in order to trade Halladay. And he hasn't been "wowed" yet. I'm thinking Roy is going to stay in Toronto.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
If the Reds can't figure out how to trade for or sign TOR guys, they'll never win. I don't care how effective their minors development is. I really believe it's that black and white.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:16 PM
This is the quote I was referring to. The Reds aren't listed as one of the inquiring teams.



The Blue Jays have had talks with the Boston Red Sox, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers, Tampa Bay Rays, Texas Rangers and New York Yankees about Halladay, and while names have been exchanged with all teams, the Jays had not made significant progress with any team as of midday Wednesday.

"We'd have to be wowed," Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi told ESPN's Peter Gammons. "And we haven't been wowed."

Despite a report of renewed interest from the Yankees, they so far appeared to be just monitoring the market for Halladay. The Yankees have no interest in giving up both Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain and don't have room within the budget currently defined by team ownership.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 06:29 PM
What's so hard to understand about the fact that Halladay has a no-trade clause, sent the Blue Jays a list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to, and I'm 99% confident the Reds weren't on that list?

People can dream, right?

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 06:37 PM
If the Reds can't figure out how to trade for or sign TOR guys, they'll never win. I don't care how effective their minors development is. I really believe it's that black and white.

I'd argue that our minors development isn't that effective, if any at all.

Rojo
07-29-2009, 06:46 PM
More likely (if he was desperate to get out of Toronto and Cincinnati was the only place the Jays were willing to send him) he'd accept the trade to the Reds and then opt out of his deal at the end of the season, which I believe he's allowed to do on a multi-year contract.

I think this is right. IIRC, Lasorda was caught off-guard by this rule when he traded for Jeff Shaw.

OnBaseMachine
09-13-2009, 05:35 PM
If this is true, then J.P. Ricciardi is crazier than I thought.

Bob Elliot of the Toronto Sun reports that the Red Sox offered the Blue Jays six pitchers for Roy Halladay at the trading deadline. The names: Daniel Bard, Michael Bowden, Clay Buchholz, Felix Doubront, Nick Hagadone and Justin Masterson. That's quite an impressive array of names, and it's shocking Toronto didn't snap it up. The scout that revealed this deal said the Jays had difficulty projecting Masterson's future, and -- probably most important --- "the Jays were worried about Halladay beating them next year." Obviously, Masterson and Hagadone are no longer with the Sox club so it's unlikely a deal could be reached in the offseason. If it's going to take more than that package to land Halladay, GM J.P. Ricciardi won't find any takers.

http://firebrandal.com/2009/09/13/jays-turned-down-soxs-6-for-1-offer-on-halladay.html

Brutus
09-13-2009, 05:39 PM
If this is true, then J.P. Ricciardi is crazier than I thought.

Bob Elliot of the Toronto Sun reports that the Red Sox offered the Blue Jays six pitchers for Roy Halladay at the trading deadline. The names: Daniel Bard, Michael Bowden, Clay Buchholz, Felix Doubront, Nick Hagadone and Justin Masterson. That's quite an impressive array of names, and it's shocking Toronto didn't snap it up. The scout that revealed this deal said the Jays had difficulty projecting Masterson's future, and -- probably most important --- "the Jays were worried about Halladay beating them next year." Obviously, Masterson and Hagadone are no longer with the Sox club so it's unlikely a deal could be reached in the offseason. If it's going to take more than that package to land Halladay, GM J.P. Ricciardi won't find any takers.

http://firebrandal.com/2009/09/13/jays-turned-down-soxs-6-for-1-offer-on-halladay.html

I can't fathom that's actually true, as I don't think the Red Sox would offer that much. There were reports they wouldn't even trade Bucholz in the Lee deal.

However, you're right though, if that's true... I wouldn't know how to respond. That would be amazing they turned that down.

Tom Servo
09-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Theo said the rumor wasn't true, but it's said that it was more of a package of 4 or so of those guys, not 6.

So the Blue Jays were still pretty dumb not to take it.

nate
09-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Theo said the rumor wasn't true, but it's said that it was more of a package of 4 or so of those guys, not 6.

So the Blue Jays were still pretty dumb not to take it.

Heh, just less dumb than previously reported.

:cool:

IslandRed
09-13-2009, 08:33 PM
From the article:


Bob Elliot of the Toronto Sun reports that the Red Sox offered the Blue Jays six pitchers for Roy Halladay at the trading deadline. The names: Daniel Bard, Michael Bowden, Clay Buchholz, Felix Doubront, Nick Hagadone and Justin Masterson. That's quite an impressive array of names, and it's shocking Toronto didn't snap it up. The scout that revealed this deal said the Jays had difficulty projecting Masterson's future, and -- probably most important --- "the Jays were worried about Halladay beating them next year."

The bolded part struck me as odd. A Halladay trade clearly would have signaled a retooling in Toronto. So if they weren't going to win in 2010 anyway, why would they have cared if he came back and beat them in Boston's uniform or someone else's?

blumj
09-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Gammons:


Where would they sit had the Blue Jays accepted Boston's offer of Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden, Justin Masterson, Nick Hagadone, and Josh Reddick for Roy Halladay?


http://espn.go.com/boston/columns/blog?post=4464754&name=gammons

Degenerate39
09-14-2009, 11:15 AM
I think that's too good of an offer to pass up.

lollipopcurve
09-14-2009, 01:10 PM
Beware the prospects of Boston and NYY. The hype is higher. Buchholz is looking legit right now, but Bowden and Reddick have had down years, Hagadone is too green and far away to project with any certainty, and Masterson may not survive as a starter. I don't blame Toronto for holding out for a more certain return.