PDA

View Full Version : Brandon Webb



Benihana
07-28-2009, 10:35 PM
The Ashland, KY native and UK alum has been out with a shoulder injury since Opening Day, and shows no signs of returning before September at the earliest.

Meanwhile, the cash-strapped DBacks must make a choice to pick up his $8.5MM option or buy him out for $2MM. Unless he shows he's completely healthy, I have to imagine they buy him out, especially if last year's refusal to offer Dunn arbitration was any indication of their financial situation.

Assuming he is bought out, could/would/should the Reds make a run at him? Obviously it all depends on his health. What kind of deal would he command? Would he take a hometown discount? Could he be the TOR guy to headline a rotation filled with the youngsters? He just turned 30 in May.

What are your thoughts?

BrooklynRedz
07-28-2009, 10:45 PM
He won't sign with the Reds.

CTA513
07-28-2009, 10:46 PM
Depends on the type of injury he has and how long it would be before he could pitch again if he needed surgery.
He gets a lot of ground balls and can also miss bats.

Benihana
07-28-2009, 10:47 PM
He won't sign with the Reds.

Care to elaborate?

LoganBuck
07-28-2009, 11:00 PM
Care to elaborate?

Wasn't there some story about him being rubbed the wrong way over the scouting/drafting of him, under the Jimbo regime?

corkedbat
07-28-2009, 11:03 PM
I'd certainly make a strong run at him if he reached FA unless the injury is serious and chronic. I'd even rehab him for half a season if necessary.

WMR
07-28-2009, 11:18 PM
I don't think he would hold a grudge towards an organization over something that was done by a regime that was in power 3 "administrations" ago.

BrooklynRedz
07-28-2009, 11:35 PM
Care to elaborate?

Dude is absolutely overcome with personal requests for tickets, face time and promotion for every nickel-and-dime two-bit hustler who can navigate the 150-page phonebook in Ashland -- or otherwise even remotely connected to a member of his family -- every start in Cincy. Now combine that to the forecast for success shared by the majority of this board with the fact he is in desperate need of that last 4-6 year contract, and you have a terrible math problem for which there is no algebraic theorem to settle.

And this isn't conjecture.

WMR
07-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Griffey and Larkin were able to handle it. I'm sure everyone in Ashland would love to get a piece of Brandon, but if that's seriously a problem for him then he needs to do a better job of insulating himself. You're telling me someone can flip open the Ashland phonebook and get Brandon Webb on the phone (when he's not in AZ)? I'm not sure I believe that and if it were true then Brandon has himself to blame more than anything/anyone else.

BrooklynRedz
07-28-2009, 11:48 PM
Griffey and Larkin were able to handle it. I'm sure everyone in Ashland would love to get a piece of Brandon, but if that's seriously a problem for him then he needs to do a better job of insulating himself. You're telling me someone can flip open the Ashland phonebook and get Brandon Webb on the phone (when he's not in AZ)? I'm not sure I believe that and if it were true then Brandon has himself to blame more than anything/anyone else.

You don't have to believe it. His entire family lives in Ashland. How good are you at telling your family 'no'? Sometimes these obligations are best avoided. This isn't to say this is my opinion, only the opinion(s) that matter.

WMR
07-28-2009, 11:58 PM
You don't have to believe it. His entire family lives in Ashland. How good are you at telling your family 'no'? Sometimes these obligations are best avoided. This isn't to say this is my opinion, only the opinion(s) that matter.

I get what you're saying... it just seems like Brandon's family would want to help insulate him, not make his life more difficult.

Do you know someone who knows Brandon personally or something?

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 12:00 AM
Dude is absolutely overcome with personal requests for tickets, face time and promotion for every nickel-and-dime two-bit hustler who can navigate the 150-page phonebook in Ashland -- or otherwise even remotely connected to a member of his family -- every start in Cincy. Now combine that to the forecast for success shared by the majority of this board with the fact he is in desperate need of that last 4-6 year contract, and you have a terrible math problem for which there is no algebraic theorem to settle.

And this isn't conjecture.

I'm originally from Ashland and never knew too many people who had a problem telling leeches to bug off. As for expectations? They'll be there everywhere. Wouldn't be any better in NYC, Bos or Chi. The contract? I wouldn't expect a hometown discount, I'd figure on paying market, but then they're gonna have to do that to land a TOR starter anyway. Id' just hope they could sway him and proximity to home might end up being a positive in the end. Might not work, but I'd give it a shot.

The Reds are going to have to add a top pitcher to contend anyway and it needs to be more than a one year rental. Webb's one I would take my est shot on because he's just what you need in the GAB.

Team Clark
07-29-2009, 12:40 AM
I'd sign him yesterday. The PROBLEM is this... The Reds have NO ONE in the organization that can help Brandon Webb get back on track once he's healthy. NOT ONE COACH that can work with him to be successful again. They have some tinkerers and philosophers, but it's obvious that their BEST pitching coach is part time and can only make it for 3-4 days every other month and 3 weeks of Spring Training. (Mr. Soto)

Az Red
07-29-2009, 01:00 AM
TC, Why is it you are the ONLY one who will admit this? Doesn't the organization self-evaluate? Doesn't WK know he is hurting in the pitcher development area? (And the Manager area...)

Blitz Dorsey
07-29-2009, 01:06 AM
This is EXACTLY the kind of move the Reds need to make if they are serious about contending in 2010 and beyond. I have no problem with them cashing in this year (obviously) but at least have a plan going forward. Having Brandon Webb to go along with Cueto and Volquez would be a darn good plan. Then you need to find a SS and LF and we're in business. The Reds are not THAT far away. Getting someone like Brandon Webb is the kind of move that real MLB teams make. Let's start acting like one again. And I think the local connection helps. It wouldn't be a deciding factor, but if the Reds were able to trade for him, I think they could sign him to a LTC.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 01:30 AM
I'd sign him yesterday. The PROBLEM is this... The Reds have NO ONE in the organization that can help Brandon Webb get back on track once he's healthy. NOT ONE COACH that can work with him to be successful again. They have some tinkerers and philosophers, but it's obvious that their BEST pitching coach is part time and can only make it for 3-4 days every other month and 3 weeks of Spring Training. (Mr. Soto)

I've been saying for three years the most improtant acquisition this team could make (and the one they should be most willing to over-pay for) would be the best piitchng coach they can find. Not only that, I'd fill all minor league PC spot (and all roving instructor spots) with his disciples.

This organization needs to build a unified system/philosophy for both hitting and pitching based on strong fundamentals.

kaldaniels
07-29-2009, 05:27 AM
Dude is absolutely overcome with personal requests for tickets, face time and promotion for every nickel-and-dime two-bit hustler who can navigate the 150-page phonebook in Ashland -- or otherwise even remotely connected to a member of his family -- every start in Cincy. Now combine that to the forecast for success shared by the majority of this board with the fact he is in desperate need of that last 4-6 year contract, and you have a terrible math problem for which there is no algebraic theorem to settle.

And this isn't conjecture.

Considering he pitches in Cincy probably .7 to .8 times a year, of course he will get hit up for ticket request from his hometowners. Make him a staff regular and the novelty will wear off. Now of course odds are slim to none that he winds up here mostly due to economics...but unless you have factual info that he has said he won't come to Cincy I don't buy your speculation that the hustlers of Ashland Ky will keep him away.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 08:51 AM
Jocketty did the same thing years ago with Carpenter. I think Webb is a very good target. Sign him to an incentive laden contract with a handshake agreement to do a long term contract when his health returns.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 09:24 AM
The Reds have as good of a chance at getting Brandon Webb as they do winning the World Series this year.

RedsBaron
07-29-2009, 09:37 AM
The Reds have as good of a chance at getting Brandon Webb as they do winning the World Series this year.

Hey, all the Reds need is a nice 25 game winning streak and they are right back in the race. ;)
I know that Brandon Webb appears in some local ads around the Huntington-Ashland area. Maybe not wanting to be bothered by local leeches would keep him away from signing with Cincinnati, but I would find that to be unusual. My guess is that it would come down to money, as it usually does.

M2
07-29-2009, 09:43 AM
The stupid ballpark also might keep Webb away.

If you're a stud pitcher looking to bounce back and get yourself a big contract why on earth would you subject yourself to the GAB? Go somewhere that will forgive a few of your mistakes. Go pitch for Dave Duncan. Go pitch for a good team to pad your win totals. Whatever you do, don't sign to pitch in a bandbox.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:45 AM
The stupid ballpark also might keep Webb away.

If you're a stud pitcher looking to bounce back and get yourself a big contract why on earth would you subject yourself to the GAB? Go somewhere that will forgive a few of your mistakes. Go pitch for Dave Duncan. Go pitch for a good team to pad your win totals. Whatever you do, don't sign to pitch in a bandbox.

Shouldn't matter as much for a ground ball specialist like Webb, right?

In fact, if the Reds got Rolen and left a defensive specialist (Janish etc.) at SS, I'd argue that Webb might actually fare extremely well with that infield defense. Again, I may also be hopelessly optimistic at this point. (Did I mention I'm also a contrarian?)

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 09:47 AM
Shouldn't matter as much for a ground ball specialist like Webb, right?

No pitcher is bandbox proof.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 09:48 AM
No pitcher is bandbox proof.

Yeah, the Phillies have a bandbox WS ring.

It's not the park, it's the pitchers.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:48 AM
No pitcher is bandbox proof.

Cole Hamels says :wave:

M2
07-29-2009, 09:49 AM
Shouldn't matter as much for a ground ball specialist like Webb, right?

From Webb's POV, why take the risk? He's got tens of millions riding on a productive 2010 and he'll probably have his pick of destinations if the D-Backs cut him loose.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:50 AM
From Webb's POV, why take the risk? He's got tens of millions riding on a productive 2010 and he'll probably have his pick of destinations if the D-Backs cut him loose.

True. Unless of course they pick up the option and work out a trade. But that would actually require creativity on the Reds part. :rolleyes:

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 09:51 AM
Cole Hamels says :wave:

So does Aaron Cook, Wandy Rodriguez, Roy Oswalt, Edinson Volquez (2008).

Don't suck and you're golden. Wherever you pitch.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 09:52 AM
Yeah, the Phillies have a bandbox WS ring.

It's not the park, it's the pitchers.

They also have an offense to go with their pitching.

Granted, the Phillies have much better pitching than the Reds, but I'm pretty sure the Phillies' home ERA isn't setting the world on fire. It probably is compared to the Reds, but that's b/c the Phillies have better pitching than the Reds.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:55 AM
They also have an offense to go with their pitching.

Granted, the Phillies have much better pitching than the Reds, but I'm pretty sure the Phillies' home ERA isn't setting the world on fire. It probably is compared to the Reds, but that's b/c the Phillies have better pitching than the Reds.

But you said that "No pitcher is bandbox proof."

I submit to you Cole Hamels:

Career ERA at Home: 3.42
Career ERA on Road: 3.79

He's great you say. One of the best pitchers in the league. Brandon Webb is not?

M2
07-29-2009, 09:56 AM
Yeah, the Phillies have a bandbox WS ring.

It's not the park, it's the pitchers.

Agreed, but if you're a pitcher looking to put up a big season in order to get a big contract, then you'd do best to stay away from the bandbox clubs. For instance, Webb could go to San Diego and stud it up, then sign a fat contract with the Phillies.

He's a good pitcher who can pitch anywhere (and Arizona is no picnic), but next year I'd think he'll be a bit more selective

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 09:56 AM
Cole Hamels says :wave:

Hamels, sporting a home ERA of 3.92 this year?

Given up 12 HR in 11 GS @ home this year?

Opponents batting .252 vs him @ home this year?

Might wanna stop waving that hand, Mr. Hamels.

M2
07-29-2009, 09:57 AM
True. Unless of course they pick up the option and work out a trade. But that would actually require creativity on the Reds part. :rolleyes:

Fair point. The way for the Reds to get him would be via trade. I was thinking free agency.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 09:58 AM
But you said that "No pitcher is bandbox proof."

I submit to you Cole Hamels:

Career ERA at Home: 3.42
Career ERA on Road: 3.79

He's great you say. One of the best pitchers in the league. Brandon Webb is not?

And I repeat, no pitcher is bandbox proof.

Sure, better pitchers will predominantly put up better numbers in bandboxes, but they'll also take some lumps as well, which was my point.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 09:58 AM
Hamels, sporting a home ERA of 3.92 this year?

Given up 12 HR in 11 GS @ home this year?

Opponents batting .252 vs him @ home this year?

Might wanna stop waving that hand, Mr. Hamels.

Might wanna go back and read my last post. I'll repeat it for you:

Career home ERA: 3.42
Career road ERA: 3.79

Get your hands up in the air!

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:00 AM
And I repeat, no pitcher is bandbox proof.

Sure, better pitchers will predominantly put up better numbers in bandboxes, but they'll also take some lumps as well, which was my point.

No, you're missing the point.

Hamels has a BETTER ERA in the bandbox than he does on the road. I'm not comparing him to other pitchers, I'm comparing him to himself.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:00 AM
And I repeat, no pitcher is bandbox proof.


This is wrong. Heck, Roy Halladay pitches in something of a bandbox. Do you honestly think his numbers would be appreciably better in Dodgers Stadium?

Bandboxes can actually benefit certain species of pitchers. Sure, the Reds' flyball mavens are going to get roughed up, but as I said, don't suck and give up deep flyballs, and you're going to be fine.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:01 AM
Might wanna go back and read my last post. I'll repeat it for you:

Career home ERA: 3.42
Career road ERA: 3.79

Get your hands up in the air!

Yeah, I read it.

He's also above his career home ERA for this year.

Kinda shows my point more than yours.

He's enjoyed some success pitching @ Citizens Bank BP, but has this year caught up to him to some extent?

And I don't think a career 3.42 home ERA @ CBBP is really setting the world on fire, either. But that's a different argument altogether.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:02 AM
Fair point. The way for the Reds to get him would be via trade. I was thinking free agency.

Arizona has a smart GM. Webb is worth much more to them in trade value than he is if you buy out the option (unless of course, he is simply not healthy enough to pitch.) I just wonder if they have the financial risk profile to take that chance. Their handling of Dunn's arbitration last year suggests they may not, but you never know.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:05 AM
This is wrong. Heck, Roy Halladay pitches in something of a bandbox. Do you honestly think his numbers would be appreciably better in Dodgers Stadium?

Bandboxes can actually benefit certain species of pitchers. Sure, the Reds' flyball mavens are going to get roughed up, but as I said, don't suck and give up deep flyballs, and you're going to be fine.

My point is that you can't guarantee me every time a pitcher toes the rubber in a bandbox, they're going to dominate in spite of the bandbox.

Eventually, the park does get you.

I fully agree that your better pitchers won't have the park get them as much as crappy pitchers, but every pitcher out there will run into the occasional start where they put up a bad line b/c of the park.

So, why put yourself in that situation if you don't have to, or if you're not being handsomely compensated to do so?

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:06 AM
And I don't think a career 3.42 home ERA @ CBBP is really setting the world on fire, either. But that's a different argument altogether.

Um, what?

Cole Hamels is one of the best pitchers in baseball. I'd take his 3.42 home ERA @ CBBP (or GAB) any day of the week. I don't know what you're expecting, but that would set the Reds' world on fire.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:08 AM
No, you're missing the point.

Hamels has a BETTER ERA in the bandbox than he does on the road. I'm not comparing him to other pitchers, I'm comparing him to himself.

Eh, splitting hairs.

Those ERAs are pretty close to being the same.

But, Hamels is a good pitcher, so I would hope he could have a better chance for success in a bandbox, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:09 AM
Um, what?

Cole Hamels is one of the best pitchers in baseball. I'd take his 3.42 home ERA @ CBBP (or GAB) any day of the week. I don't know what you're expecting, but that would set the Reds' world on fire.

And therein lies the problem.

I'd take that ERA @ GABP, but it's more a commentary that a 3.42 ERA in GABP is setting the world on fire.

Low standards.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 10:13 AM
And therein lies the problem.

I'd take that ERA @ GABP, but it's more a commentary that a 3.42 ERA in GABP is setting the world on fire.

Low standards.

How many guys out there would post an ERA lower than that at GABP?

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:13 AM
Eh, splitting hairs.

Those ERAs are pretty close to being the same.

But, Hamels is a good pitcher, so I would hope he could have a better chance for success in a bandbox, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it.

No, they are not the same. They are almost half a run different- that is significant.

The point is, even if they were exactly the same, Hamels would be "bandbox proof" by definition. He pitches just as well (actually better) in the bandbox than he does outside of it. Isn't that the very definition of being bandbox proof?

That's all I'm trying to say.

Oh, and for the record, Brandon Webb has a career 2.97 ERA pitching in Great American Ballpark (to bring this thread back on topic.) He has more outings in GAB than any other stadium outside of his division.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:16 AM
How many guys out there would post an ERA lower than that at GABP?

I dunno, but as FCB's suggested and I agree, the Reds need to find out.

We lack a true TOR, and our coaches and FO can't stay out of the way of negatively impacting Cueto and Volquez.

I'd say Harang's been negatively impacted recently by the Reds, wouldn't you?

We don't have the arms (except maybe Cueto) to sniff an ERA under 3.25 @ GABP over a year.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:19 AM
I dunno, but as FCB's suggested and I agree, the Reds need to find out.

We lack a true TOR, and our coaches and FO can't stay out of the way of negatively impacting Cueto and Volquez.

I'd say Harang's been negatively impacted recently by the Reds, wouldn't you?

We don't have the arms (except maybe Cueto) to sniff an ERA under 3.25 @ GABP over a year.

How have Cueto and Volquez been "impacted" by the Reds? Or Harang for that matter? Or do you mean impacted by the stadium?

Volquez has TOR potential in any park. But I definitely worry about his health.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:20 AM
No, they are not the same. They are almost half a run different- that is significant.

The point is, even if they were exactly the same, Hamels would be "bandbox proof" by definition. He pitches just as well (actually better) in the bandbox than he does outside of it. Doesn't that suggest he is bandbox proof?

That's all I'm trying to say.

Oh, and for the record, Brandon Webb has a career 2.97 ERA pitching in Great American Ballpark (to bring this thread back on topic.) He has more outings in GAB than any other stadium outside of his division.

I would think Roy Oswalt, as mentioned by FCB, would be the closest to bandbox proof due to his track record of ***** slapping the Reds @ GABP.

Doesn't surprise me that Webb's had success @ GABP at all, but I'd definitely guarantee that from time to time he'd get rocked at least once or twice a year pitching @ GABP, and that's my definition of not being bandbox proof.

Sounds like we're just argument semantics at this point, no?

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:22 AM
How have Cueto and Volquez been "impacted" by the Reds? Or Harang for that matter? Or do you mean impacted by the stadium?

Volquez has TOR potential in any park. But I definitely worry about his health.

Who are you and what have you done with FCB?

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 10:22 AM
How have Cueto and Volquez been "impacted" by the Reds? Or Harang for that matter? Or do you mean impacted by the stadium?

Volquez has TOR potential in any park. But I definitely worry about his health.

I don't think the Reds have coddled Cueto or Volquez enough to this point. We've seen The Dusty beat on Harang on a regular basis.

That's what I mean by negatively impact.

It's like the Reds have these high end sports cars, but they never take them for an oil change or a tire rotation.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:24 AM
Who are you and what have you done with FCB?

I said potential. I draw a bright line between potential and consistent ability. But it's hard to argue with what he did last season. Look, I was a huge cheerleader of the move that brought Volquez here.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:26 AM
I don't think the Reds have coddled Cueto or Volquez enough to this point. We've seen The Dusty beat on Harang on a regular basis.

That's what I mean by negatively impact.

It's like the Reds have these high end sports cars, but they never take them for an oil change or a tire rotation.

Cueto has been treated perfectly. As has Volquez. As for Harang: sometimes you're just an '88 Saab. And nothing else.

M2
07-29-2009, 10:27 AM
As for Harang: sometimes you're just an '88 Saab. And nothing else.

Good car, the kind that can run forever.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:31 AM
Good car, the kind that can run forever.

Don't run it over 80 though.

RedlegJake
07-29-2009, 10:32 AM
I don't buy the "hometown leeches" argument for one second. I don't buy the "bandbox" argument either. Good pitchers really aren't looking at that, imo. Good pitchers aren't afraid pitch anywhere. What would make it difficult to sign Brandon is the team that plays in that bandbox. The Reds can't go to him and claim - "Hey, we're ready to win, all we need is an ace and we think you're the guy who gets us over the top". The defense has improved a lot but the Reds still can't say - "look, you have a gold glove infield behind you". And they can't say "Look, we score a lot of runs so you'll win here even if this park costs you now and then because we can out hit the other teams coming in here". The Reds can't say "Look, Cast is going to put a large sum of money into filling our holes this winter, we've targeted a and b as LTC targets so this team will be much better if you sign, too".

The Reds can't tell a potential ace any of those things so it's going to be very difficult to sign a FA ace quality pitcher or extend one. The Reds can

A: grow their own - in which case Team Clark's point about the lousy coaching still working throughout this organization becomes the stall angle, OR

B: rent a pitcher to make a late season run when the team is in the thick of it, hope you win so you CAN say some of those things to get him signed LT. That means first improving the offense without damaging the defense, and keeping the bullpen strong and the starters you have effective enough to make it to that point in the year.

If you don't have option B in place - THEN the good pitchers will look at the park and say not a chance. If you're going to be on a perennial also ran THEN San Diego or Seattle or even Washington looks better from a career enhancing viewpoint. First and foremost I believe almost all pros want the chance to get that ring. Offer them a realistic chance to get there and they'll listen no matter what park you play in.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 10:33 AM
I don't buy the "hometown leeches" argument for one second. I don't buy the "bandbox" argument either. Good pitchers really aren't looking at that, imo. Good pitchers aren't afraid pitch anywhere. What would make it difficult to sign Brandon is the team that plays in that bandbox. The Reds can't go to him and claim - "Hey, we're ready to win, all we need is an ace and we think you're the guy who gets us over the top". The defense has improved a lot but the Reds still can't say - "look, you have a gold glove infield behind you". And they can't say "Look, we score a lot of runs so you'll win here even if this park costs you now and then because we can out hit the other teams coming in here". The Reds can't say "Look, Cast is going to put a large sum of money into filling our holes this winter, we've targeted a and b as LTC targets so this team will be much better if you sign, too".

The Reds can't tell a potential ace any of those things so it's going to be very difficult to sign a FA ace quality pitcher or extend one. The Reds can

A: grow their own - in which case Team Clark's point about the lousy coaching still working throughout this organization becomes the stall angle, OR

B: rent a pitcher to make a late season run when the team is in the thick of it, hope you win so you CAN say some of those things to get him signed LT. That means first improving the offense without damaging the defense, and keeping the bullpen strong and the starters you have effective enough to make it to that point in the year.

If you don't have option B in place - THEN the good pitchers will look at the park and say not a chance. If you're going to be on a perennial also ran THEN San Diego or Seattle or even Washington looks better from a career enhancing viewpoint. First and foremost I believe almost all pros want the chance to get that ring. Offer them a realistic chance to get there and they'll listen no matter what park you play in.

BrooklynRedz is actually one poster with genuine inside knowledge.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:43 AM
BrooklynRedz is actually one poster with genuine inside knowledge.

I'm still holding out hope for that Halladay deal. ;)

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:45 AM
I said potential. I draw a bright line between potential and consistent ability. But it's hard to argue with what he did last season. Look, I was a huge cheerleader of the move that brought Volquez here.

A bright line departure from yesterday's rhetoric. No one ever claimed Volquez was consistent- especially not at this stage in his career. But outside of Tim Lincecum, what 25 year old pitcher is consistent?

M2
07-29-2009, 10:46 AM
Don't run it over 80 though.

So says you, I used to drive my '82 Honda Civic hatchback at 100.

Say what you will about Harang, but he's one of the top starting pitchers we've ever seen take the mound for the Reds.

Rijo, Soto and Seaver were better (though Soto and Seaver weren't that much better if you look at their entire body of work with the club). Gary Nolan probably qualifies as better too, but give Harang a few more years with the club and he'd probably overtake Nolan. After that, Harang's pretty much the man.

I don't get the mindset that causes people to spit on a guy like that.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 10:47 AM
So says you, I used to drive my '82 Honda Civic hatchback at 100.

Say what you will about Harang, but he's one of the top starting pitchers we've ever seen take the mound for the Reds.

Rijo, Soto and Seaver were better (though Soto and Seaver weren't that much better if you look at their entire body of work with the club). Gary Nolan probably qualifies as better too, but give Harang a few more years with the club and he'd probably overtake Nolan. After that, Harang's pretty much the man.

I don't get the mindset that causes people to spit on a guy like that.

To some folks, other team's players are always better.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 10:47 AM
I don't get the mindset that causes people to spit on a guy like that.

Yep, you and me both- especially when he took a discount (at the time) to re-sign here.

M2
07-29-2009, 10:48 AM
To some folks, other team's players are always better.

I suppose, but the club could spend another decade in search of a pitcher as good as Harang's 2005-9 has been.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 10:49 AM
I suppose, but the club could spend another decade in search of a pitcher as good as Harang's 2005-9 has been.

Other than Dunn, Harang has been my favorite Red since he got there. I really like the guy and it concerns me that he's hurt because I think he's better than what he has shown for the last 2 seasons. I was high on the guy before almost anyone around here.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 11:10 AM
I suppose, but the club could spend another decade in search of a pitcher as good as Harang's 2005-9 has been.

Harang's obviously not the problem, but he's not been the TOR answer either. Rotations need guys like Harang. But they need more and better too.

That's not spitting on anyone, it's just the truth.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Harang's obviously not the problem, but he's not been the TOR answer either. Rotations need guys like Harang. But they need more and better too.

That's not spitting on anyone, it's just the truth.

2006 and 2007 he was as good or better than anyone in the NL I would call that TOR!

Benihana
07-29-2009, 11:15 AM
2006 and 2007 he was as good or better than anyone in the NL I would call that TOR!

Yep. Only Brandon Webb, Carlos Zambrano and Roy Oswalt were comparable IIRC.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 11:16 AM
2006 and 2007 he was as good or better than anyone in the NL I would call that TOR!

Best I can tell that's the past.

Team Clark
07-29-2009, 11:16 AM
TC, Why is it you are the ONLY one who will admit this? Doesn't the organization self-evaluate? Doesn't WK know he is hurting in the pitcher development area? (And the Manager area...)

Wish I had an answer for that. The Player Development Department is in better shape than it has been, HOWEVER, when you are still nickle and diming to get coaches...you get what you pay for. :confused:

Team Clark
07-29-2009, 11:18 AM
BrooklynRedz is actually one poster with genuine inside knowledge.

That is a fact. He is an EXCELLENT source. Great person too.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2009, 11:24 AM
Best I can tell that's the past.

Fair enough, however you have to take the bad with the good a majority of the time.