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HumnHilghtFreel
07-29-2009, 02:43 PM
The Phillies have reached agreement with the Indians on a trade that would bring them left-hander Cliff Lee and outfielder Ben Francisco for Class A right-hander Jason Knapp, Class AAA right-hander Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson, according to major-league sources.

Latest MLB buzz
Cliff Lee Trade buzz: What's going down as the MLB trade deadline draws near? Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi have all the latest news and notes.

The deal is pending a review of medical records.

Carrasco was scratched from his start for the Class AAA Lehigh IronPigs on Wednesday, and Donald and Marson were not in the lineup. It was not known whether Donald and Marson had scheduled off-days for an 11 a.m. start after a night game.

Talks remain fluid the Phillies also are talking to the Mariners about left-hander Jarrod Washburn, and the Dodgers planned to make a "hard push" for Lee on Wednesday, according to a source.

But if the deal described by the source is accurate, the Lee trade would be a coup for both the Phillies and Indians.

The Phillies would be getting the reigning American League Cy Young Award winner for the rest of 2009 and '10 without giving up any of the three players the Blue Jays initially wanted for Roy Halladay left-hander J.A. Happ, right-hander Kyle Drabek and outfielder Dominic Brown.

The Indians, meanwhile, would be getting four of the Phillies' top 10 prospects according to BaseballAmerica's preseason rankings. Carrasco was rated second, Marson third, Donald fourth and Knapp 10th.

Knapp, who does not turn 19 until Aug. 31, is currently sidelined with shoulder stiffness, but one scout says his upside is greater than Drabek's, calling the 6-foot-5, 215-pound righty a "Halladay clone."

It is possible that the Indians could send the Phillies money in the trade to cover part of Lee's remaining salary slightly less than $2 million this season, plus a $9 million club option for 2010.

Teams routinely include cash in deals to secure better prospects. The Phillies' payroll is a club-record $130 million, which is one reason the club has balked at a Halladay deal.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 02:44 PM
World Series again? The Dodgers better go get Halladay.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:46 PM
World Series again? The Dodgers better go get Halladay.

Cliff Lee is really not all that great. I wouldn't sweat it if I were the Dodgers.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 02:46 PM
The scary part is the Phillies still have the goods to go out and get Holliday. Could you imagine a rotation of Hamels, Lee, and Holliday?

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:47 PM
The scary part is the Phillies still have the goods to go out and get Holliday. Could you imagine a rotation of Hamels, Lee, and Holliday?

They won't.

REDREAD
07-29-2009, 02:47 PM
Great deal by the Phillies. Looks like a buyer's market and they took advantage of it.

REDREAD
07-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Cliff Lee is really not all that great. I wouldn't sweat it if I were the Dodgers.


I don't know.. Have not followed LA much, but isn't their rotation basically Kershaw, Billingsley, Wolf ?
Seems like the Phillies have a pretty big advantage here. Of course, I could be forgetting someon in LA.

edabbs44
07-29-2009, 02:51 PM
The Dodgers have the 3rd highest OPS in baseball vs LHPs, behind only NYY and Boston.

What do Hamels and Lee have in common?

flyer85
07-29-2009, 02:52 PM
nice deal for the Phillies

Bumstead
07-29-2009, 02:52 PM
Have to wonder what the Indians are going to do with another catcher...Marson is a pretty good catching prospect and they have Martinez, Shoppach, and Carlos Santana (AA stud) already. How about they relieve themselves of Santana to the us (Reds)??? ;)

Phillies are going to be tough to beat now.

Bum

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:54 PM
I'd say it's a nice deal for both teams. Still--as has been the case for several seasons, premium, top notch prospects staying put.

I say to Walt, go the extra mile and get Halladay.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 02:54 PM
Cliff Lee is really not all that great. I wouldn't sweat it if I were the Dodgers.

National League and the Dodgers have no pitchers other than Kershaw and Wolf. Billingsley is scuffling, and Koroda can't get out of the 5th. I think they need another starter although their offense is very good. They, at least, need some bullpen help. I picked the Dodgers back in March, along with the Yankees, but the Phillies are looking very good.

Bumstead
07-29-2009, 02:56 PM
The Dodgers have the 3rd highest OPS in baseball vs LHPs, behind only NYY and Boston.

What do Hamels and Lee have in common?

They are both pretty darn good pitchers regardless of what arm they throw with. They will make it tough on the Dodgers should they meet in the playoffs. The Phillies are the favorites by a long shot in my opinion to come out of the NL.

Bum

TRF
07-29-2009, 02:57 PM
Pitchers switching leagues often fare better than hitters switching leagues. For a post season run, this is a great move by the Phillies.

It hurts the Reds however as Halladay remains available. Harang and Arroyo are nobody's first choice.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:58 PM
National League and the Dodgers have no pitchers other than Kershaw and Wolf. Billingsley is scuffling, and Koroda can't get out of the 5th. I think they need another starter although their offense is very good. They, at least, need some bullpen help. I picked the Dodgers back in March, along with the Yankees, but the Phillies are looking very good.

Sure, the Phillies are good. Probably the best in the NL, but I don't necessarily see the Phils' rotation as better, even with Lee.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 02:59 PM
Pitchers switching leagues often fare better than hitters switching leagues. For a post season run, this is a great move by the Phillies.

It hurts the Reds however as Halladay remains available. Harang and Arroyo are nobody's first choice.

Harang and Arroyo aren't any many teams' radar.

TRF
07-29-2009, 03:00 PM
Harang and Arroyo aren't any many teams' radar.


Sure they are. maybe not locked in dead center, but they are options. Just not first options.

edabbs44
07-29-2009, 03:04 PM
They are both pretty darn good pitchers regardless of what arm they throw with. They will make it tough on the Dodgers should they meet in the playoffs. The Phillies are the favorites by a long shot in my opinion to come out of the NL.

Bum

Without a doubt. But Manny and Kemp are pretty good hitters as well. Same with some of the guys in NY and Bos, if they make it that far.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:04 PM
Ben Francisco is one heck of a good 4th OF. He, Victorino and Werth aren't going to let many flyballs land in the later innings.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 03:04 PM
Very depressing to watch the Indians make a run and then tear it down.

Make another run and tear it down again.

Then make another run and tear it down once again.

In the same span the Reds run in place on the treadmill of purgatory.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 03:05 PM
Sure, the Phillies are good. Probably the best in the NL, but I don't necessarily see the Phils' rotation as better, even with Lee.

Hamels > Kershaw
Blanton > Koroda
Lee > Billingsley
Happ = Wolf

I like the Phillies rotation much better and their bullpen is way better other than Broxton.

SirFelixCat
07-29-2009, 03:07 PM
FCB, no way does Halladay come to Cincy...why would he waive his no-trade clause to go there? No chance in hell...zero, zip, nadda.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 03:12 PM
Hamels > Kershaw
Blanton > Koroda
Lee > Billingsley
Happ = Wolf

I like the Phillies rotation much better and their bullpen is way better other than Broxton.

It would go more like this:

Hamels<Billingsly
Lee<Kershaw
Blanton<Wolf

That's the 1's v 1's, 2 v 2's, and 3 vs 3's.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 03:13 PM
It would go more like this:

Hamels<Billingsly
Lee<Kershaw
Blanton<Wolf

That's the 1's v 1's, 2 v 2's, and 3 vs 3's.

Hamels is better than Billingsley, Lee is better than Kershaw (at this point) and Blanton is better than Wolf. So, anyway you want to look at it.

HokieRed
07-29-2009, 03:17 PM
I'm thinking this trade, together with Seattle's, can only bode well for our being able to make a deal, though of course that doesn't mean anything will happen. Does it take Washburn off the market, for instance? Does it make it a little more incumbent on the Angels to get somebody? Ditto the Dodgers? maybe one of our guys now becomes an alternative for the Yankees? Does the Phillies backing off suggest the BJays are asking just a little too much for RH?

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Ben Francisco is one heck of a good 4th OF. He, Victorino and Werth aren't going to let many flyballs land in the later innings.

Ben Francisco would probably be the best OF on the Reds roster right about now...

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 03:20 PM
Hamels is better than Billingsley, Lee is better than Kershaw (at this point) and Blanton is better than Wolf. So, anyway you want to look at it.

Hamels and Billingsly are a wash at best. I'd rather give the ball to Billingsly against the Phils than Hamels against the Dodgers.

Kershaw has been completely unhittable aside from the beginning of the season. Him against the lefty hitting Phillies, or Lee against the righty Dodgers? I'll take Kershaw again.

Wolf has been significantly better than Blanton over the past two years, and is again, a lefty.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 03:24 PM
Hamels and Billingsly are a wash at best. I'd rather give the ball to Billingsly against the Phils than Hamels against the Dodgers.

Kershaw has been completely unhittable aside from the beginning of the season. Him against the lefty hitting Phillies, or Lee against the righty Dodgers? I'll take Kershaw again.

Wolf has been significantly better than Blanton over the past two years, and is again, a lefty.

Blanton has been tremendous since the first of May. Hamels is Hamels and Billingsley has looked horrible his past several starts. I've watched most of them. No doubt, the Dodgers could beat them in a short series, as could St. Louis, but I just believe the Dodgers need to get another starter and quite a bit of bullpen help. The Dodgers pen is horrible and Torre abuses those guys.

VR
07-29-2009, 03:26 PM
In the same span the Reds run in place on the treadmill of purgatory.

For those needing a visual aid for the Reds of the 21st century.


http://blog.friendsofdarwin.com/media/2007/chimp-treadmill.jpg

M2
07-29-2009, 03:27 PM
Now if the Phillies really want to blow some minds they ought to go out and get themselves some Scott Rolen.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 03:29 PM
Now if the Phillies really want to blow some minds they ought to go out and get themselves some Scott Rolen.

With apologies to the BRM, would that make them the best infield of all time?

MrCinatit
07-29-2009, 03:32 PM
Very depressing to watch the Indians make a run and then tear it down.

Make another run and tear it down again.

Then make another run and tear it down once again.

In the same span the Reds run in place on the treadmill of purgatory.


I was just thinking the same thing.
The Tribe was a joke when I was growing up - but it seems lately, they have been a model on how to build an "almost there...but not quite" team on a relatively cheap budget by developing young players and getting an occasional good one from another organization.
Meanwhile, the Reds' "scrappy" model...not quite so much.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 03:35 PM
I say to Walt, go the extra mile and get Halladay.

I don't know that Cincinnati has the farm system to get that kind of deal done. Maybe if Alosno hadn't gotten hurt and was putting up great numbers in the minors you could swing something, but I don't know that there is the star power to overwhelm Toronto with an offer.

RedsBaron
07-29-2009, 03:36 PM
The Blue Jays organization can't be happy right now.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:36 PM
With apologies to the BRM, would that make them the best infield of all time?

It would be a pretty good one.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:37 PM
The Blue Jays organization can't be happy right now.

They should blame their GM.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 03:43 PM
They should blame their GM.

He's terrible. Absolutely terrible.

wheels
07-29-2009, 03:44 PM
For those needing a visual aid for the Reds of the 21st century.


http://blog.friendsofdarwin.com/media/2007/chimp-treadmill.jpg

I think that comparing the Reds to chimps does a great disservice to chimps.

RichRed
07-29-2009, 04:01 PM
With apologies to the BRM, would that make them the best infield of all time?

They're missing their Johnny Bench but yeah, that's one top-notch infield.

MasonBuzz3
07-29-2009, 04:16 PM
anybody know if any team has ever traded two Cy Young winners within one calander year?

MrCinatit
07-29-2009, 04:41 PM
anybody know if any team has ever traded two Cy Young winners within one calander year?

On February 15, 1980, the Padres traded CY winner Gaylord Perry to the Texas Rangers for the great Willie Montanez. Perry had been the NL CY winner with San Diego in 1978 (as well as with Cleveland in 1972).
On December 15, 1980, the Padres traded Randy Jones to the Mets for Jose Moreno and John Pacella. Jones was the CY winner in 1976.

M2
07-29-2009, 04:42 PM
On February 15, 1980, the Padres traded CY winner Gaylord Perry to the Texas Rangers for the great Willie Montanez. Perry had been the NL CY winner with San Diego in 1978 (as well as with Cleveland in 1972).
On December 15, 1980, the Padres traded Randy Jones to the Mets for Jose Moreno and John Pacella. Jones was the CY winner in 1976.

Imaginary rep for you.

MasonBuzz3
07-29-2009, 04:56 PM
On February 15, 1980, the Padres traded CY winner Gaylord Perry to the Texas Rangers for the great Willie Montanez. Perry had been the NL CY winner with San Diego in 1978 (as well as with Cleveland in 1972).
On December 15, 1980, the Padres traded Randy Jones to the Mets for Jose Moreno and John Pacella. Jones was the CY winner in 1976.

great job, but i add to the question if any team has ever traded winners the year after they won the award consectutively

alexad
07-29-2009, 05:53 PM
I am watching the Tribe game and they were just talking about trading two straight Cy Young Award winners.

The Indians have won the Cy Young two straight years with two different pitchers. How many teams have done this?

The interesting thing they were talking about is trading the past two Cy Young Award Winners for players who are not in the major leagues right now. Meaning they are trading them for players not major league ready.

I think the Indians have been getting hosed on their past two deals. Not to mention they gave up a pretty good outfielder in the deal also.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:54 PM
I am watching the Tribe game and they were just talking about trading two straight Cy Young Award winners.

The Indians have won the Cy Young two straight years with two different pitchers. How many teams have done this?

The interesting thing they were talking about is trading the past two Cy Young Award Winners for players who are not in the major leagues right now. Meaning they are trading them for players not major league ready.

I think the Indians have been getting hosed on their past two deals. Not to mention they gave up a pretty good outfielder in the deal also.seems like they went for quantity over quality, never a good idea.

RedsBaron
07-29-2009, 06:15 PM
The Indians have won the Cy Young two straight years with two different pitchers. How many teams have done this?



1962-63 Dodgers: Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax
1977-78 Yankees: Sparky Lyle and Ron Guidry
1979-80 Orioles: Mike Flanagan and Steve Stone
1982-83 Phillies: Steve Carlton and John Denny
1993-96 Braves: Greg Maddux ('93-'95) and John Smoltz
1996-98 Blue Jays: Pat Hentgen and Roger Clemens ('97-'98)