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View Full Version : Am I the only one looking at all these trades



lidspinner
07-29-2009, 02:31 PM
and wondering why we couldnt have done something similar? The phills got to keep their Top talent and still got Lee.......The M's got Ian snell who might turn out to be special or might turn out a bum, either way the M's got rid of a few guys that will never sniff their roster and picked up a starting SS who is a stop gap until a minor leaguer can handle it and grabbed snell.......The Cards gave up our equivalent of Yonder Alonso and now have Matt H and they will more than likely have the lead when it comes to Free Agency, they might not sign him but they will for sure be the front runners and all it cost them was a guy that "MIGHT" not ever make the major league club, its a big cost if Matt signs elsewhere but if they can sign him and he works out then its money........

I just dont understand all this stuff comming out of Walts mouth about not trading way our future.......I am here to tell ya walt, we dont have a future. You get a future by doing what it takes to win now..And if giving up Tonder Alonzo and a few AA guys and a few A guys means that we would be looking at Cliff Lee, Matt Holiday and Ian Snell.......then I say do it and do it again. Even if it meant Holiday and Lee were only here for the rest of the year....If we would have brought those guys in a month ago, where would we be now? The point I am trying to make is you play to win and win now.....

BluegrassRedleg
07-29-2009, 03:02 PM
I think it's a tough call at times. In the Cards example you gave, there's no way I'd give up Alonso in a deal for Holliday, who I don't believe is good enough to put put the Reds over the hump. It would take 2 or 3 big moves to do that IMO.

lidspinner
07-29-2009, 04:47 PM
you wouldnt take Holiday in our little pop stand of a park? Hey, its all opinions anyway. I respect yours....IMO, Matt would flourish in a park like this where long fly balls tend to make their way to the stands.....Even on Holidays bad years, he is still pretty above average and he plays LF......Yonder "might" make it to the majors in a few years and he might not....and he can only play 1st which just happens to be where our MVP plays. I would make that trade 10-10 times.....but thats me. I am not sure MH is worth 20 mil/year but he who knows. We will see.....

lidspinner
07-29-2009, 05:01 PM
lets look at it from another standpoint.....each year we hear the FO say that we are building and we wont sell off our future prospects.....JayB was untouchable, homer was untouchable....How many current Reds starters were a part of our minor leagues for at least 1 full year before they were a member of the starting 9? Or even bench players included?

I think I can make the argument that even your most prized talent in the minors rarely pans out the way you think it will pan out. My thougt is you can sell that talent at a high price and spend some money on "PROVEN" talent that is aleready playing......For every Joey Votto there are 10 Brandon Larson's. It seems the Cards have taken this theory and are starting to run with it. Maybe Yonder is your guy you dont touch, but that dont mean you cant trade Heisy and stubbs.....or even Homer if the price is right.....

I dont know, maybe I am just mad that the reds suck

Chris Sabowned
07-29-2009, 05:07 PM
I think you are a little off base here. First of all we are in 5th place and in no position to be buyers at this point. Secondly, we finally have a few talented prospects in the minors, I don't think we should take that for granted. Sure, we could afford to sell of a prospect maybe, but whats the point right now. If anything I think we should be trading for a pitching prospect

lidspinner
07-29-2009, 06:16 PM
so you would not trade these guys for Cliff Lee, which is the equilvalent to what the Phils gave for him.

Chris Valaika
Andrew Bowman
Corky Miller
Daryl Thompson


Or how about these guys for Matt Holiday? And I think our talent is better than the Talent that the Cards offered.

Yonder Alonzo
Darnell McDonald


My whole point behind this argument is Walt is holding tight with these prospects and thats fine, but not every stinking one of them....We could have easily traded the above prospects for Cliff lee and Matt Holiday and even if only till the end of the year, this team would be in another position right now and instead of watching Deadliest Catch re-runs tonight, I would be excited to turn on Chris Welch. Honestly, here who would not make those trades? Could you imagine the buzz around Ctown if this was our team...and a rotation of Volquez,Cueto,bailey,harang or arroyo then Lee...WOW.....

And the worst part of this all is this is not some wild fantasy dream....this is reality. Does Walt truly hold our prospects that high or is he just stupid and did not even try to make those deals?

bounty37h
07-30-2009, 09:29 AM
These discussions seem to forget one important fact, I doubt any of these players would ever want to or agree to come to Cincy to play.

CySeymour
07-30-2009, 09:33 AM
Give up Alonso for 2 months of Holiday? No thank you.

Griffey012
07-30-2009, 09:49 AM
so you would not trade these guys for Cliff Lee, which is the equilvalent to what the Phils gave for him.

Chris Valaika
Andrew Bowman
Corky Miller
Daryl Thompson


Or how about these guys for Matt Holiday? And I think our talent is better than the Talent that the Cards offered.

Yonder Alonzo
Darnell McDonald


My whole point behind this argument is Walt is holding tight with these prospects and thats fine, but not every stinking one of them....We could have easily traded the above prospects for Cliff lee and Matt Holiday and even if only till the end of the year, this team would be in another position right now and instead of watching Deadliest Catch re-runs tonight, I would be excited to turn on Chris Welch. Honestly, here who would not make those trades? Could you imagine the buzz around Ctown if this was our team...and a rotation of Volquez,Cueto,bailey,harang or arroyo then Lee...WOW.....

And the worst part of this all is this is not some wild fantasy dream....this is reality. Does Walt truly hold our prospects that high or is he just stupid and did not even try to make those deals?

That is not at all the equivalent of what what the phils gave up. Try something like...
Frazier
Heisey/Stubbs
Bailey
and someone else

REDblooded
07-30-2009, 10:06 AM
Your prospect evaluation skills are lacking lidspinner...

lidspinner
07-30-2009, 10:16 AM
That is not at all the equivalent of what what the phils gave up. Try something like...
Frazier
Heisey/Stubbs
Bailey
and someone else

Frazier....Ok, Ill give ya that one, still a little higher prospect than what the phils gave.....jason Donald is batting .235...compared to Fraziers .305 but I'll give ya that one...
Heisy/stubbs...are you saying they are the equivalent of Lou Marson???? come on, lets be real
Bailey......Are you comparing Carlos Carrasco to Homer Bailey??? could be close but I would argue that CC has not sniffed the majors...

lidspinner
07-30-2009, 10:23 AM
Your prospect evaluation skills are lacking lidspinner...

look at above post.....I am not just making this stuff up...go to MLB.com and look at the minor league rosters....the guys that were trade for Lee and Holiday, were filler guys in most trades.......the only player worth anything was the Cards 1st round draft selection last year, Brett Wallace.....and he was not quite tearing it up in the minors....doing well but not great.

Redblood....please by all means, compare prospects for yourself and try and come up with a equal trade with our prospects.....look up the stats and the ages of these guys....The phillies kept their top 2 prospects and still got lee.

A trade that just happened that is really giving up talent is San Fran just gave up a stud in the minors for Freddy Sanchez....that would be like us giving up Homer Bailey for Sanchez....I wouldnt have done that trade....but Cliff Lee and Matt Holiday....all day long if all I have to give up is Fillers.

lidspinner
07-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Give up Alonso for 2 months of Holiday? No thank you.


I do agree, that is a steep price.....But was you saying the same thing a few years back when the Yankees were wanting us to give them Brandon larson? We thought he was untouchable.....what about CJ Nitkowski? NOONE could have him, he was the future. I could go on and on......Yonder Alonso might be an allstar some day, I dont know.....never hardly even watched him play....But I do know the kid has a major uphill battle to climb to make this team. The odds are clearly stacked against him becomming better than Mat Holiday. Even if it means we only have him the rest of the year, I would hope he would give us 1st negotiating rights and that might be enough to keep him....if not, we go get another Yonder Alonzo in the draft. You can build for the future all you want but at some point you have to play for the present.

lidspinner
07-30-2009, 10:29 AM
These discussions seem to forget one important fact, I doubt any of these players would ever want to or agree to come to Cincy to play.

Did Lee and Holiday have no trade clauses? Maybe they did, I guess Inever looked into that.....

CySeymour
07-30-2009, 10:54 AM
I do agree, that is a steep price.....But was you saying the same thing a few years back when the Yankees were wanting us to give them Brandon larson? We thought he was untouchable.....what about CJ Nitkowski? NOONE could have him, he was the future. I could go on and on......Yonder Alonso might be an allstar some day, I dont know.....never hardly even watched him play....But I do know the kid has a major uphill battle to climb to make this team. The odds are clearly stacked against him becomming better than Mat Holiday. Even if it means we only have him the rest of the year, I would hope he would give us 1st negotiating rights and that might be enough to keep him....if not, we go get another Yonder Alonzo in the draft. You can build for the future all you want but at some point you have to play for the present.

I have no idea what previous trades you are talking about. But 2 months of Babe Ruth reincarnated wouldn't supply us with enough offense to pull out of this and get back into the race this year. So why give up our #1 prospect for 2 months of a player who at this point is just decent who probably won't sign for next year? I really fail to see the logic here.

Carin4Narron
07-30-2009, 11:02 AM
Reds 2010

1. Chris Dickerson CF
2. Ryan Hanigan C
3. Joey Votto LF
4. Edwin Encarnacion 3B
5. Jay Bruce RF
6. Yonder Alonso 1B
7. Brandon Phillips 2B
8. Chris Valaika SS
9. Johnny Cueto P

Let it happen!!!

If that happens dude, it's a last place finish. Do you actually want that? I don't! You can not have a good team just having players from your farm system especially with how the Reds draft. You have to make good trades,sign a free agent or two, and mix in a few players from your farm system. That's a mark of a good team!

lidspinner
07-30-2009, 11:03 AM
Big Klu.....I do agree that is alot to give up.....I am taking into consideration that matt Holiday might have given the Reds 1st rights to get him signed.....He has already said the same to the Cards......and a Matt Holiday in our park at 16mill/20mill/year might be worth it for a guy we never know if he will sniff our roster or not.....thats my thinking....I'll gladly eat my words if Yonder comes up here and out preforms Matt Holiday

bounty37h
07-30-2009, 12:34 PM
Did Lee and Holiday have no trade clauses? Maybe they did, I guess Inever looked into that.....

I dont know that for fact either, just thinking it seems they have the time in to have it, but havent bothered to look.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Halladay does, but Lee didnt