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Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Per Reds Twitter.

Wladimir Balentien traded for Robert Manuel!

This and Ian Snell were the two fliers I wanted most, though Jeremy Hermida is another guy I wanted to see traded (and still do). But while Snell went to Seattle, I like this one.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Per Reds Twitter.

For Robert Manuel!

May he be the next Jose Guillen.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:53 PM
Did Bavasi go back to being the GM for the Mariners? There is no downside for the Reds on this one.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:54 PM
May he be the next Jose Guillen.

For his age, power potential and the ability to draw walks he showed in the minors, I still think he has a pretty high ceiling. Certainly he may turn out to be Wily Mo, but I think this has a whole lot of upside.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 03:54 PM
Who is Balentein?

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Who is Balentein?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/wladimir-balentien.shtml

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Who is Balentein?

I edited the post as it should be in there, but Wladimir Balentien the OF for Seattle who just got DFA'd this week.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2009, 03:56 PM
How do you say his first name?

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 03:56 PM
No downside to this trade.

reds44
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
I like.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
The only downside is turning him over to Dusty. "Don't be clogging the bases, son"

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Nice.

Hope he figures out to hit major league pitching, but he looks solid.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
How do you say his first name?

I believe it's pronounced just like "Vladimir." That's always the impression I was under, anyhow.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Wily Mo is dead! Long live Wily Mo!

wheels
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
I really hate his name, but I could very well end up liking his game.

Nice, low drama deal.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Reeks of a WK move. Guy really hasn't shown the ability to find 1st base much throughout his entire career.

BRM
07-29-2009, 03:59 PM
Can he play CF or is he more of a corner OF?

Brutus
07-29-2009, 03:59 PM
Reeks of a WK move. Guy really hasn't shown the ability to find 1st base much throughout his entire career.

Not so far in the majors, but in the minor leagues, he actually had a pretty good OBP.

M2
07-29-2009, 03:59 PM
This deal also keeps alive one of the more fascinating trade chains in modern Reds history

Balentien - Manuel
Manuel - Dave Williams
Williams - Sean Casey
Casey - Dave Burba

Kc61
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Looking at this guy's numbers, this trade is to help get the Reds through the rest of the season without promoting Stubbs or Heisey. This guy will play some outfield in 2009 -- seems like a long shot to be a regular going forward.

If anyone knows different, please inform.

wheels
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Not so far in the majors, but in the minor leagues, he actually had a pretty good OBP.

He sure did.

Wasn't this kid high on a lot of lists?

Was he out of options or something?

I wish jojo was still around to give us the scoop.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Looking at this guy's numbers, this trade is to help get the Reds through the rest of the season without promoting Stubbs or Heisey. This guy will play some outfield in 2009 -- seems like a long shot to be a regular going forward.

If anyone knows different, please inform.

Sounds about right.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Can he play CF or is he more of a corner OF?

it doesn't matter, the Red have CF covered.

TRF
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
This is the big LF bat? a guy that is likely the product of the PCL? Color me unimpressed unless he's either being handed the starting LF job right now to see what the Reds really have or he's headed to AAA and Heisey is called up to man any OF spot.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 04:00 PM
This deal also keeps alive one of the more fascinating trade chains in modern Reds history

Balentien - Manuel
Manuel - Dave Williams
Williams - Sean Casey
Casey - Dave Burba

Awesome.

cincrazy
07-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Maybe he'll be the next Brandon Phillips.

Or maybe he'll be just one more automatic out in the lineup.

I'm hoping for the former, kind of expecting the latter.

joshnky
07-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Reeks of a WK move.

Exactly what I thought. It really reminds me of the Phillips move. A former top prospect, DFA'd, and acquired for nothing. Hopefully it works out just as well.

wheels
07-29-2009, 04:01 PM
This deal also keeps alive one of the more fascinating trade chains in modern Reds history

Balentien - Manuel
Manuel - Dave Williams
Williams - Sean Casey
Casey - Dave Burba

Wowzers.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 04:02 PM
One of Seattle's top 10 prospects in 2005 (#9), 2007 (#6), and 2008 (#5).

REDREAD
07-29-2009, 04:03 PM
This deal also keeps alive one of the more fascinating trade chains in modern Reds history

Balentien - Manuel
Manuel - Dave Williams
Williams - Sean Casey
Casey - Dave Burba

You're not taking the chain far back enough..

Deion (and others) - Burba (and others)
Roberto Kelly - Deion
Paul O'neill - Roberto Kelly

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 04:04 PM
This deal also keeps alive one of the more fascinating trade chains in modern Reds history

Balentien - Manuel
Manuel - Dave Williams
Williams - Sean Casey
Casey - Dave Burba

Add
Burba - Deion Sanders
Deion Sanders - Roberto Kelly
Roberto Kelly - Paul Oneil

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:04 PM
Maybe he'll be the next Brandon Phillips.

Or maybe he'll be just one more automatic out in the lineup.

I'm hoping for the former, kind of expecting the latter.

Pretty much my take, too. This organization draws its water from the well of Potential. Never mind the lead in the ground.

Time to quaff the waters of Production.

With this move I'm firmly of a mind that it's going to be an otherwise dead-silent trade deadline: they're going the wing and a prayer route that Krivsky went.

Time for some FCB hatin'.

Ron Madden
07-29-2009, 04:05 PM
It's a chance worth taking. :)

johngalt
07-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Looking at this guy's numbers, this trade is to help get the Reds through the rest of the season without promoting Stubbs or Heisey. This guy will play some outfield in 2009 -- seems like a long shot to be a regular going forward.

If anyone knows different, please inform.

Look at his numbers in the context of age, though. The Mariners promoted him pretty swiftly. He showed a pretty high walk rate early on.

edabbs44
07-29-2009, 04:06 PM
No risk, only reward when you are giving up pretty much nothing.

No problem with the move.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:06 PM
it doesn't matter, the Red have CF covered.

They do?

RedsManRick
07-29-2009, 04:06 PM
Great move. No doubt that Manuel has been quite effective, but he's not exactly young and we a lot of middle relief depth. Balentien has a ton of upside still. Very nice.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 04:06 PM
Not so far in the majors, but in the minor leagues, he actually had a pretty good OBP.

Career .345 OBP in the minors isn't bad, but it isn't great either. I guess its worth a flier, but he may just wind up taking a spot on the 25 man roster. Heck with JHJ, Taveras, and Gonzales those remaining spots are becoming very important.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:07 PM
It's a chance worth taking. :)which is really all it is. It doesn't address the major issues, not that anyone was suggesting that but it seems to be the rut that Walt has been stuck in since becoming GM.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:08 PM
They do?
Willy T :p:

I heard they are negotiating an extension because they can lock him cheap if they sign him now.

Kc61
07-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Look at his numbers in the context of age, though. The Mariners promoted him pretty swiftly. He showed a pretty high walk rate early on.

Sorry, but I'm out of patience on guys whose big attribute is a minor league walk rate.

I'm not against the trade, Manuel was probably not a keeper, but it's more of the same IMO. Other teams get studs, we get high minor league walk rates.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:10 PM
Career .345 OBP in the minors isn't bad, but it isn't great either. I guess its worth a flier, but he may just wind up taking a spot on the 25 man roster. Heck with JHJ, Taveras, and Gonzales those remaining spots are becoming very important.at least his minor league SLG% is ~.510

VR
07-29-2009, 04:10 PM
Add
Burba - Deion Sanders
Deion Sanders - Roberto Kelly
Roberto Kelly - Paul Oneil

Ironically, Wladimir Balentien is Spanish for.......you guessed it, Paul O'Neil.

TRF
07-29-2009, 04:11 PM
I agree it's a low risk move ala BP. I fear he's a product of his environment. great in the PCL, poor in the AL West and it's giant parks. Maybe he'll go hog wild in the NL Central's bandbox parks.

Manuel certainly isn't a lot to give up.

Reds Fanatic
07-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Not a bad move. It is worth a shot to see what he can do. He just turned 25 so he could give you some years and if it doesn't work out you really did not give up much in the deal.

cincyinco
07-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Well, at least Walt did something
:rollseyes:

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Sorry, but I'm out of patience on guys whose big attribute is a minor league walk rate.

I'm not against the trade, Manuel was probably not a keeper, but it's more of the same IMO. Other teams get studs, we get high minor league walk rates.

I hear that. Some teams trade for actual talent. The Reds trade for potential. That said, there really isn't any downside to this particular deal. The Reds didn't give up anything of note.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:12 PM
I hear that. Some teams trade for actual talent. The Reds trade for potential. That said, there really isn't any downside to this particular deal. The Reds didn't give up anything of note.

Well, they did give up a pitcher, something the Reds aren't exactly swimming in.

johngalt
07-29-2009, 04:12 PM
Sorry, but I'm out of patience on guys whose big attribute is a minor league walk rate.

I'm not against the trade, Manuel was probably not a keeper, but it's more of the same IMO. Other teams get studs, we get high minor league walk rates.

But it's a high minor league walk rate with power at the age of 22-23 in AA and AAA. There's talent there. Sure, he could stay more of the same and just end up as a bust. But there's also the potential of being a very good outfield regular, and I would say more potential than a longshot or just someone to get through the season.

TRF
07-29-2009, 04:12 PM
Also, it might really push some guys at AAA, Dorn, Stubbs, Heisey.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Well, they did give up a pitcher, something the Reds aren't exactly swimming in.

The Reds never seem to have trouble finding mediocre middle relief -- which is what they traded here.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Well, they did give up a pitcher, something the Reds aren't exactly swimming in.

Not a terribly gifted one though. He's a useful middle reliever, something the Reds should be able to replace easily.

johngalt
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Well, they did give up a pitcher, something the Reds aren't exactly swimming in.

There's about 15 potential Robert Manuels in every system.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Sorry, but I'm out of patience on guys whose big attribute is a minor league walk rate.

I'm not against the trade, Manuel was probably not a keeper, but it's more of the same IMO. Other teams get studs, we get high minor league walk rates.

I do understand that. This kid, though, has has all of about 400 plate appearances at the major league level. He showed good walk rates and very, very good power in the minors. It's not like we're talking about someone that's been in the bigs for three full seasons. He's still not had a real good chance to develop yet.

RedLegSuperStar
07-29-2009, 04:14 PM
I love this move.. Manuel looked great and is having a solid year at Louisville but I'd rather have Wladimir on the roster over Robert.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Also, it might really push some guys at AAA, Dorn, Stubbs, Heisey.

Is Balentien gonna be added to the 25 man? If not, that's a crowded OF in Louisville.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:15 PM
I hear that. Some teams trade for actual talent. The Reds trade for potential. That said, there really isn't any downside to this particular deal. The Reds didn't give up anything of note.Walt hasn't given up anything of note (Dunn was going to be a FA, he doesn't count) since becoming GM. If he finally makes a deal where he actually does, that will define him as a GM in Cincinnati. If the Reds want to go forward they will have to take some risk, so far Walt hasn't done that.

cincyinco
07-29-2009, 04:16 PM
The Reds never seem to have trouble finding mediocre middle relief -- which is what they traded here.

Right, I'm not going to sweat the loss of soft tossing Robert Manuel..

I just hope this isn't it. Which it very well might be.

M2
07-29-2009, 04:16 PM
You're not taking the chain far back enough..

Deion (and others) - Burba (and others)
Roberto Kelly - Deion
Paul O'neill - Roberto Kelly

I wasn't counting anything beyond that blunderbuss trade, but it is kind of fun to take it all the way back to O'Neill.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:17 PM
middle relievers are fungible is a GM has any skill at all, especially ones who fastball tops at 87.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Not a terribly gifted one though. He's a useful middle reliever, something the Reds should be able to replace easily.

Not a tragedy, I understand that. But it's more of the same dumpster-diving otherwise known as treading water.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:18 PM
Not a tragedy, I understand that. But it's more of the same dumpster-diving otherwise known as treading water.

I agree completely with that. This is yet another low-risk move. It may pay off one day, if we are lucky.

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 04:19 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.

RichRed
07-29-2009, 04:21 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.

Classic oversimplification. I think many of us, myself included, like this deal but will be much less enamored if it's the only one that happens.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:21 PM
I agree completely with that. This is yet another low-risk move. It may pay off one day, if we are lucky.

I held out hope that Walt could get Castellini to break from the Krivsky Doctrine.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:21 PM
I agree completely with that. This is yet another low-risk move. It may pay off one day, if we are lucky.even if it does though it isn't going to appreciably move the franchise forward. To do that higher risks will have to be taken.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 04:22 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.

Encarnacion is already the bird in the hand.

No need to throw money away for a few less errors, less offense, and a 34-year old bad back.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:23 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.

I don't see this move being lauded by anyone. I see a lot of "I don't hate it" type posts but no one is fawning over it. There is also quite a bit of love for the idea of acquiring Rolen in the other thread as well. Several don't want him for sure but it isn't being dismissed entirely by RedsZone as a whole.

redsmetz
07-29-2009, 04:23 PM
Is Balentien gonna be added to the 25 man? If not, that's a crowded OF in Louisville.

I could see it going either way. Manuel was on the current roster, so there's that slot, but that leaves just 11 pitchers. It's also possible they send Sutton back and put Balentien on the ML roster. We've only got four outfielders at the present, counting Hairston.

Kc61
07-29-2009, 04:23 PM
I recall, now, that this player was DFA'd by Seattle. So Seattle had 40 better players on its roster, no room for Wladimir.

I wonder if the Reds ever look for players who weren't DFA'd or non-tendered or if that's a prerequisite for its roster.

Really, I wish the Reds hadn't done this, the player swap may be all right, but it's just a reminder of how hopeless the franchise seems to be right now.

BRM
07-29-2009, 04:23 PM
I held out hope that Walt could get Castellini to break from the Krivsky Doctrine.

There is still two more days to find that out.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:25 PM
taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.
in the case of Rolen it's the fact that he is old with declining power, has a bad injury history and only signed for next year. The ONLY reason you would bring him on is if you think you are very close and he would push you over the top. Rolen would do little to address the major issues around the Reds, he would be a minor upgrade for 1 season if he could stay healthy and I am sure the Reds could revisit a Rolen deal in the offseason if some heavy lifting were to get done.

*BaseClogger*
07-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.

http://thebloggersdesktop.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/grumpy.jpeg

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:25 PM
There is still two more days to find that out.

I doubt it; this is the same trajectory.

Patrick Bateman
07-29-2009, 04:26 PM
I recall, now, that this player was DFA'd by Seattle. So Seattle had 40 better players on its roster, no room for Wladimir.

I wonder if the Reds ever look for players who weren't DFA'd or non-tendered or if that's a prerequisite for its roster.

Really, I wish the Reds hadn't done this, the player swap may be all right, but it's just a reminder of how hopeless the franchise seems to be right now.

Players fall through cracks all the time. This team sucks either way, may as well grab a few young guys that could potentially will some holes.

M2
07-29-2009, 04:26 PM
I held out hope that Walt could get Castellini to break from the Krivsky Doctrine.

What is the Krivsky Doctrine?

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:28 PM
What is the Krivsky Doctrine?

"Sometimes it's not the sexiest moves that [build a franchise]"

No, Wayne it's *always* the sexiest moves that build a franchise.

membengal
07-29-2009, 04:29 PM
"Sometimes it's not the sexiest moves that [build a franchise]"

No, Wayne it's *always* the sexiest moves that build a franchise.

Unless it's not.

How about a little bit of both to build a franchise?

A Ludwick AND a Holliday, say?

wolfboy
07-29-2009, 04:32 PM
"Sometimes it's not the sexiest moves that [build a franchise]"

No, Wayne it's *always* the sexiest moves that build a franchise.

Like slowly cultivating a productive farm system? I mean, compared to blockbuster trades, that's about as sexy as watching paint dry. It's a proven winner though.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 04:32 PM
May he be the next Jose Guillen.

Reading his scouting report, he sounds like a Jose Pena clone.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 04:33 PM
"Sometimes it's not the sexiest moves that [build a franchise]"

No, Wayne it's *always* the sexiest moves that build a franchise.

Signing Chris Carpenter, Kyle Lohse and Joel Piniero were about as sexy as an Office Depot ad -- how's that working out for the Cards?

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:33 PM
Unless it's not.

How about a little bit of both to build a franchise?

A Ludwick AND a Holliday, say?

This franchise has been dumpster-diving since the Griffey trade. Most of the GMs since then have been good to excellent at that task (Bowden, Krivsky, Jocketty). But this team hasn't gotten a bit closer to relevance.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 04:34 PM
This team does one thing well as an organization, and that is collecting useful outfielders off the junk pile. Even if it is just for the short term. That has been the only thing the front office has done well for the last 15 years.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Like slowly cultivating a productive farm system? I mean, compared to blockbuster trades, that's about as sexy as watching paint dry. It's a proven winner though.

I'd say drafting Lincecum over Stubbs is the apotheosis of sexy.

VR
07-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Signing Chris Carpenter, Kyle Lohse and Joel Piniero were about as sexy as an Office Depot ad -- how's that working out for the Cards?

There's a big difference in the dumpster diving strategy of those organizations. One has the ability to identify special talent, and maximize that talent through superior coaching, scouting, and preparation.
The other operates under the chaos theory.

I'll let you fill in which is Cin/ which is StL.

Nugget
07-29-2009, 04:40 PM
Balentin was very far down when you consider when Chavez was injured the Mariners went out and got Ryan Langerhans to fill in. He is not a great fielder and his bat as many commented on was a product of the PCL. Its not fluke that two so called top Mariner batting prospects have been moved this week, along with Betancourt a few weeks ago. The Mariners are more in retooling mode but still trying to acquire major league pieces than going straight for depth.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 04:41 PM
There's a big difference in the dumpster diving strategy of those organizations. One has the ability to identify special talent, and maximize that talent through superior coaching, scouting, and preparation.
The other operates under the chaos theory.

I'll let you fill in which is Cin/ which is StL.

That wasn't FCB's point -- his point was sexy / unsexy. None of those are sexy moves, but they're well thought out and well executed. They took guys other teams didn't want or weren't willing to bid big dollars for and acquired them based on the belief in their own ability to make them contributing major leaguers.

The point is you don't need to be flashy to win, you need to be smart. Sometimes the smartest moves aren't the sexiest.

wolfboy
07-29-2009, 04:43 PM
I'd say drafting Lincecum over Stubbs is the apotheosis of sexy.

With the benefit of hindsight, yes. That's not to say that there wasn't a solid argument for Lincecum over Stubbs at the time, but each had a high probability of failure before they ever reached the majors.

Of course, I'm not talking about drafting in the first round. I'm talking about the entire draft, the scouting, the international signings, and the grueling process of development. It isn't sexy. It isn't flashy.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 04:45 PM
I love this move.

Much like Brandon Phillips years ago, I've had an eye on Balentien for a couple years. No downside whatsoever to this trade, unless of course, it is the only trade they make this week.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 04:45 PM
The only downside is turning him over to Dusty. "Don't be clogging the bases, son"

As if young Balentien needs more encouragement of his hacktastic ways...

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:47 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, yes. That's not to say that there wasn't a solid argument for Lincecum over Stubbs at the time, but each had a high probability of failure before they ever reached the majors.

Of course, I'm not talking about drafting in the first round. I'm talking about the entire draft, the scouting, the international signings, and the grueling process of development. It isn't sexy. It isn't flashy.

Jocketty's strength is to cut through the cuteness, reach into the fire, and pull out the masterpiece. Any two-bit GM can futz around at the periphery. It's a total failure on Castellini's part to utilize his resources. He brought in the big game hunter to bag squirrels.

Typical Reds.

Tom Servo
07-29-2009, 04:47 PM
Good move, although I liked Manuel. Hard to pass up on someone who was as highly thought of as Balentien though.

TRF
07-29-2009, 04:48 PM
Jocketty's strength is to cut through the cuteness, reach into the fire, and pull out the masterpiece. Any two-bit GM can futz around at the periphery. It's a total failure on Castellini's part to utilize his resources. He brought in the big game hunter to bag squirrels.

Typical Reds.

OR....

Jocketty's magic stayed in St. Louis. Perhaps magic had more to do with the people around him than it did with the man himself.

REDREAD
07-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Well, they did give up a pitcher, something the Reds aren't exactly swimming in.

But they gave up a chaff pitcher to take a flyer on a position they actually need help in. I have no problem with giving up minor league pitchers that aren't potential difference makers.

This move really doesn't excite me either, but it's a solid move.

It's going to be difficult to move Harang, Arroyo, and/or Cordero in this trade environment. Once again, it's a buyer's market. Too many teams want to dump salary.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:49 PM
OR....

Jocketty's magic stayed in St. Louis. Perhaps magic had more to do with the people around him than it did with the man himself.

He needed money. It's not for the faint of heart.

CTA513
07-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Classic Reds and classic Redszone. The Reds are trying to get something for nothing, even if that something amounts to nothing. Same with RedsZone. Trading for a never-been is lauded because we didn't give up much, but taking a risk on a legitimate major leaguer like Scott Rolen is derided. Don't want to give up anyone with potential.

I think the crowd here has never heard the expression about the bird in the hand.


If all this team needed was Rolen then I would have no problems with trading for him.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:52 PM
If all this team needed was Rolen then I would have no problems with trading for him.

All teams need MLB talent.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 04:53 PM
OR....

Jocketty's magic stayed in St. Louis. Perhaps magic had more to do with the people around him than it did with the man himself.made that point on numerous occasions. The constant seems to be Larussa/Duncan.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 04:54 PM
made that point on numerous occasions. The constant seems to be Larussa/Duncan.

I'd say their talent acquisition since the departure of Jocketty has taken a pronounced nosedive.

Their big-guns are all Jocketty acquisitions. That too is a constant.

REDREAD
07-29-2009, 04:54 PM
Not a tragedy, I understand that. But it's more of the same dumpster-diving otherwise known as treading water.

But that's the nature of a team like the Reds. It doesn't matter who the GM is. What other team is adding young promising talent? The only one I can think of is Cleveland, but we don't have a Cliff Lee to trade. The prospects CLE got for Bentancourt and Garko really aren't that much to write home about either.

When even the Yankees balk at Arroyo's salary, you've got to figure there's not a whole lot of interest across baseball. Same with Harang.

Teams probably figure they can get a Harang/Arroyo calibar pitcher (this year's version) for much less in FA this offseason.

Az Red
07-29-2009, 04:57 PM
Baby steps...

Who won the "predict which Red gets traded" office pool on this one?

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 04:58 PM
If all this team needed was Rolen then I would have no problems with trading for him.

We're waiting to pounce on that trade that will bring back a SS, 3B, LF, CF and SP.

You have to start somewhere.

I thought the Celtics were nuts to trade for Ray Allen two years ago. They were terrible, he was aging, and they gave up a lottery pick for him. My thinking was they weren't a Ray Allen away from being anything other than mediocre. Then they went out and traded for Kevin Garnett. Now they have a championship and guys like Rasheed Wallace jumping on the bandwagon hoping to get another one.

You have to go for it. Every year, you have to go for it. That separates the Reds and Cardinals as much as anything.

TRF
07-29-2009, 04:59 PM
I'd say their talent acquisition since the departure of Jocketty has taken a pronounced nosedive.

Their big-guns are all Jocketty acquisitions. That too is a constant.

And yet they just got Holliday, DeRosa and Lugo, turne Lohse into gold, Piniero into the promise he was as a prospect, and made Ryan freaking Franklin into one of the leagues best closers.

All sans Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:00 PM
And yet they just got Holliday, DeRosa and Lugo, turne Lohse into gold, Piniero into the promise he was as a prospect, and made Ryan freaking Franklin into one of the leagues best closers.

I'm not taking anything away from Duncan (in reference to the pitchers), but Holliday, DeRosa didn't exactly come cheap.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:01 PM
I'm not taking anything away from Duncan (in reference to the pitchers), but Holliday, DeRosa didn't exactly come cheap.that remains to be seen. Too many GMs go for quantity

TRF
07-29-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm not taking anything away from Duncan (in reference to the pitchers), but Holliday, DeRosa didn't exactly come cheap.

Remember Walt's last big deal in St. Louis? How's Mulder doing these days?

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:03 PM
that remains to be seen

Both are or are going to be very expensive soon. DeRosa/Holliday were pretty obvious and expensive choices (in cash and prospects).

CTA513
07-29-2009, 05:04 PM
We're waiting to pounce on that trade that will bring back a SS, 3B, LF, CF and SP.

You have to start somewhere.

I thought the Celtics were nuts to trade for Ray Allen two years ago. They were terrible, he was aging, and they gave up a lottery pick for him. My thinking was they weren't a Ray Allen away from being anything other than mediocre. Then they went out and traded for Kevin Garnett. Now they have a championship and guys like Rasheed Wallace jumping on the bandwagon hoping to get another one.

You have to go for it. Every year, you have to go for it. That separates the Reds and Cardinals as much as anything.


Then trade for him and if that happens then I don't want to hear about dumping his salary next season if the Reds are still not competing.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 05:05 PM
That wasn't FCB's point -- his point was sexy / unsexy. None of those are sexy moves, but they're well thought out and well executed. They took guys other teams didn't want or weren't willing to bid big dollars for and acquired them based on the belief in their own ability to make them contributing major leaguers.

The point is you don't need to be flashy to win, you need to be smart. Sometimes the smartest moves aren't the sexiest.

Plenty of very good players fall through the cracks. Just off the top of my head Santana, Victorino, Ortiz, Carlos Pena, Hamilton, Wearth, and Phillips were given up on by their respective clubs and acquired for cheap. They weren't sexy moves, more often than not there were head scratchers. It doesn't really matter where or how you find the talent, it matters whether or not you do find talent.

Sometimes the sexy moves that most people are in favor of end up back firing in the worst way. Just two off seasons ago people were ready to trade Cueto and Votto for Joe Blanton. People moaned and groaned when the Reds didn't trade Homer for Jermaine Dye. Looking back at it the Reds could have given up their best overall player as well as two very promising pitchers for a 3rd place finish?

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:05 PM
Both are or are going to be very expensive soon. DeRosa/Holliday were pretty obvious and expensive choices (in cash and prospects).
IMO, the prospects were overrated(as are the majority of prospects). That obviously remains to be seen.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:07 PM
IMO, the prospects were overrated(as are the majority of prospects). That obviously remains to be seen.

I understand that, but prospects are still a commodity. I still the Cubs will win the division.

M2
07-29-2009, 05:08 PM
Balentien is supposedly the type of boom-boom hitter Jocketty has an eye for and Baker can coach up. Doesn't mean he'll pan out, but he's definitely the kind of fish this GM-manager combo try to get on the line.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:09 PM
I understand that, but prospects are still a commodity. I still the Cubs will win the division.they have gotten somewhat healthy and Harden has started to pitch better. They have to be the favorite although losing Lilly was a blow. However, the other teams in the division have even more pitching problems that the Cubs.

bucksfan2
07-29-2009, 05:09 PM
Remember Walt's last big deal in St. Louis? How's Mulder doing these days?

Walt's best deal was drafting Pujols in the 13th round. Signing Carpenter after he had been released by the Blue Jays wasn't too shabby of a move. Oh and by the way Mulder was a top pitcher in baseball, one year removed from a 142 ERA+ season. Sometime good moves don't work out, we all witnessed that with Jr. and his tenure as a Red.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Walt's best deal was drafting Pujols in the 13th round. Signing Carpenter after he had been released by the Blue Jays wasn't too shabby of a move. Oh and by the way Mulder was a top pitcher in baseball, one year removed from a 142 ERA+ season. Sometime good moves don't work out, we all witnessed that with Jr. and his tenure as a Red.getting Wainwright in the Drew deal was a good move.

TRF
07-29-2009, 05:13 PM
Both are or are going to be very expensive soon. DeRosa/Holliday were pretty obvious and expensive choices (in cash and prospects).

Rolen got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

Edmonds got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

McGuire got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

umm so?

Sometime small moves are needed, sometimes big moves are needed. This is a nothing move. it hurts not one bit and might not even help. It doesn't even warrant a minor headline on ESPN's MLB homepage.

What Walt hasn't done is...


correct his mistake in CF. a simple DFA would do it.
correct his mistake at SS.
manage the 25 man roster properly


Till he does those things, I'd say he's lost a bit of his touch. I'd also say St. Louis doesn't miss him a bit.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:13 PM
I understand that, but prospects are still a commodity. and the great GMs are the ones who best able to determine the real value versus the perceived value.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:16 PM
Rolen got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

Edmonds got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

McGuire got expensive in St. Louis after he was acquired.

umm so?

Sometime small moves are needed, sometimes big moves are needed. This is a nothing move. it hurts not one bit and might not even help. It doesn't even warrant a minor headline on ESPN's MLB homepage.

What Walt hasn't done is...


correct his mistake in CF. a simple DFA would do it.
correct his mistake at SS.
manage the 25 man roster properly


Till he does those things, I'd say he's lost a bit of his touch. I'd also say St. Louis doesn't miss him a bit.

Without Wainwright and Carpenter, that team was belly up. The Jocketty acquisitions and contracts have been the cement holding that club together.

nate
07-29-2009, 05:17 PM
I somehow _knew_ Balentien would be Red.

Not a bad move, let's see what else happens.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:18 PM
Not a bad move, let's see what else happens.

I've got a pretty good idea.

redsfandan
07-29-2009, 05:19 PM
Some like this move cuz it's a flyer on a player that still has potential to be good in exchange for a very replaceable part. Some want to bash this move cuz it's one in a long line of "small" moves when all they want is a big move. I'm in the first group although I just wish he still had options left. It will be interesting to see how he does in the Reds outfield in a day or two.

membengal
07-29-2009, 05:21 PM
This club needs both small moves and big ones.

As far as fliers go that are small moves, there is no reason to hate this deal. Good move to Walt. Worth a shot.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:22 PM
seems like it is a buyers market ... need to be smart about what you do.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 05:24 PM
Let's see...

Acquire a former top prospect with a career .871 OPS in the minors (higher than Stubbs and Heisey, mind you) for essentially nothing. Manuel was a 26 year old undrafted FA who was behind Burton, Masset, Fisher, Roenicke, and Weathers on the depth chart.

He has the highest minor league OPS out of any current minor league OF above A ball.
He is the same age as Drew Stubbs and Chris Heisey.

Sure he has been pretty bad in 400 major league ABs, but he's been better than Brandon Phillips was at the time we acquired him (at exactly the same age.)

I understand the backlash if anyone is disillusioned into thinking this solves the Reds' problems, but assuming there's still more to come- tell me again the part that's not to like?

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:25 PM
tell me again the part that's not to like?
I heard he was related to Willy T

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:25 PM
I don't think anyone is experessing a dislike for this deal. They are just hoping it's not the only one Walt will make this week.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:26 PM
Let's see...

Acquire a former top prospect with a career .871 OPS in the minors (higher than Stubbs and Heisey, mind you) for essentially nothing. Manuel was a 26 year old undrafted FA who was behind Burton, Masset, Fisher, Roenicke, and Weathers on the depth chart.

He has the highest minor league OPS out of any current minor leaguer in the system.
He is younger than Drew Stubbs and the same age as Chris Heisey. Sure he has been pretty bad in 400 major league ABs, but he's been better than Brandon Phillips was at the time we acquired him (at exactly the same age.)

I understand the backlash if anyone is disillusioned into thinking this solves the Reds' problems, but if that's not the case- tell me again the part that's not to like?

It's important to look at moves individually, but it's just as important to look at them as of a piece with certain philosophies.

chicoruiz
07-29-2009, 05:27 PM
Hmmm... a corner OF from the AL West, once a highly-thought-of prospect, but now not so much...with a first name that's spelled strangely but pronounced normally...

Hey, it's the Hispanic Laynce Nix!

(Not that there's anything wrong with that...)

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 05:27 PM
Then trade for him and if that happens then I don't want to hear about dumping his salary next season if the Reds are still not competing.

I can promise you this -- you will never hear me suggest dumping a salary for a player who is producing. That's why I'm not pushing for selling Harang or Arroyo or Cordero, like many are.

I'm not trying to save Castellini's money. And until he goes out and spends some money, I'll never believe payflex will provide any actual on-field value to this franchise.

If they dump Harang/Arroyo/Cordero, they will talk about being players in free agency this winter. Then the bidding will get started. The Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers and Mets will gobble up the top players, the pricetag will be too high for the second tier, and pretty soon we'll be reading stories about how much of those savings are going to arbitration raises. No thanks.

durl
07-29-2009, 05:28 PM
Talk about the Krivsky Doctrine (boring trades...) made me wonder. Some of you who follow AL trades closer than I do might want to contribute.

We know Krivsky brought the Minnesota Twins method of team building with him to the Reds. I went to a game up in Minnesota a few weeks ago. Seeing their World Series Banner and (especially) the banner with their multiple Division Championships listed caught my eye.

Reds fans would LOVE to have half the success that the Twins have had over the past with 4 division titles this decade. However, I can't recall any blockbuster trades that pushed them up to the top; they brought up their own players and made big waves.

So is the Krivsky Doctrine really all that bad? It worked incredibly well in Minnesota.

By the way, I'm OK with the trade. :)

wolfboy
07-29-2009, 05:28 PM
Let's see...

Acquire a former top prospect with a career .871 OPS in the minors (higher than Stubbs and Heisey, mind you) for essentially nothing. Manuel was a 26 year old undrafted FA who was behind Burton, Masset, Fisher, Roenicke, and Weathers on the depth chart.

He has the highest minor league OPS out of any current minor league OF above A ball.
He is younger than Drew Stubbs and the same age as Chris Heisey. Sure he has been pretty bad in 400 major league ABs, but he's been better than Brandon Phillips was at the time we acquired him (at exactly the same age.)

I understand the backlash if anyone is disillusioned into thinking this solves the Reds' problems, but if that's not the case- tell me again the part that's not to like?


If this trade was made a month ago, I think the reaction would have been almost universally positive. Right now, emotions are high with the trade deadline closing in.

M2
07-29-2009, 05:28 PM
seems like it is a buyers market ... need to be smart about what you do.

You're right, but it's crazy that it is a buyers' market. There are 19 clubs in the hunt at this moment and a 20th (the Mets most definitely aren't selling). Yet the insane overvaluing of prospects has run roughshod over the math that ought to be guiding the market (twice as many buyers as sellers).

In short, what we've got here is a prospect bubble.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 05:28 PM
Let's see...

Acquire a former top prospect with a career .871 OPS in the minors (higher than Stubbs and Heisey, mind you) for essentially nothing. Manuel was a 26 year old undrafted FA who was behind Burton, Masset, Fisher, Roenicke, and Weathers on the depth chart.

He has the highest minor league OPS out of any current minor league OF above A ball.
He is younger than Drew Stubbs and the same age as Chris Heisey. Sure he has been pretty bad in 400 major league ABs, but he's been better than Brandon Phillips was at the time we acquired him (at exactly the same age.)

I understand the backlash if anyone is disillusioned into thinking this solves the Reds' problems, but if that's not the case- tell me again the part that's not to like?

I agree with everything except one minor detail. Balentien is older than Stubbs. He just turned 25 (7-2) and Stubbs turns 25 in October.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 05:29 PM
Talk about the Krivsky Doctrine (boring trades...) and it made me wonder. Some of you who follow AL trades closer than I do might want to contribute.

We know Krivsky brought the Minnesota Twins method of team building with him to the Reds. I went to a game there a few weeks ago. Seeing their World Series Banner and (especially) the banner with their multiple Division Championships listed caught my eye.

Reds fans would LOVE to have half the success that the Twins have had over the past with 4 division titles this decade. However, I can't recall any blockbuster trades that pushed them up to the top; they brought up their own players and made big waves.

So is the Krivsky Doctrine really all that bad? It worked incredibly well in Minnesota.

By the way, I'm OK with the trade. :)

Ryan was the architect of the Twins' model.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 05:29 PM
Some like this move cuz it's a flyer on a player that still has potential to be good in exchange for a very replaceable part. Some want to bash this move cuz it's one in a long line of "small" moves when all they want is a big move. I'm in the first group although I just wish he still had options left. It will be interesting to see how he does in the Reds outfield in a day or two.

No need for options with Balentien:

1. He has nothing left to prove in the minors.
2. The AAA OF is currently loaded.
3. The major league OF is currently barren.

There will never be a better opportunity for Balentien to have an extended tryout and try to right himself than in the Reds OF for the remainder of 2009.

TRF
07-29-2009, 05:31 PM
Without Wainwright and Carpenter, that team was belly up. The Jocketty acquisitions and contracts have been the cement holding that club together.

please. It takes a full rotation and without Piniero and Lohse this current Cards team is done as well. Franklin has been a hammer at the end of the game, and that's ALL Duncan. Carpenter actually turning into an ACE despite being a crap pitcher his entire career before coming to St. Louis is further proof. And yes, Carpenter was a #4 prior to Duncan getting a hold of him. He was treading the waters of mediocrity. That said, he's brittle as hell and has only had 3 1/2 good seasons out of 12.

Jocketty isn't the genius you think he is, Duncan is.

wolfboy
07-29-2009, 05:31 PM
I'm not trying to save Castellini's money. And until he goes out and spends some money, I'll never believe payflex will provide any actual on-field value to this franchise.

He opened the wallet for Cordero. In fact, he overpaid. Of course, that's where flashy thinking gets you.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 05:31 PM
You're right, but it's crazy that it is a buyers' market. There are 19 clubs in the hunt at this moment and a 20th (the Mets most definitely aren't selling). Yet the insane overvaluing of prospects has run roughshod over the math that ought to be guiding the market (twice as many buyers as sellers).

In short, what we've got here is a prospect bubble.

Yep. Been saying that for weeks. Time to short prospects and go long major leaguers.

osuceltic
07-29-2009, 05:31 PM
You're right, but it's crazy that it is a buyers' market. There are 19 clubs in the hunt at this moment and a 20th (the Mets most definitely aren't selling). Yet the insane overvaluing of prospects has run roughshod over the math that ought to be guiding the market (twice as many buyers as sellers).

In short, what we've got here is a prospect bubble.

Amen. An aggressive team could do some serious damage in this climate. I wish I was a fan of an aggressive team.

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:32 PM
No need for options with Balentien:

1. He has nothing left to prove in the minors.
2. The AAA OF is currently loaded.
3. The major league OF is currently barren.

There will never be a better opportunity for Balentien to have an extended tryout and try to right himself than in the Reds OF for the remainder of 2009.

Might as well give him a corner spot full-time and see what you've got. Especially considering the alternative is a lot of JHJ in LF.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 05:33 PM
I agree with everything except one minor detail. Balentien is older than Stubbs. He just turned 25 (7-2) and Stubbs turns 25 in October.

Sorry, misread Stubbs' year of birth. He is the same age as Stubbs and Heisey (born a few months earlier.) Changed my post to make note of it.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:34 PM
In short, what we've got here is a prospect bubble.I once played in a roto league and was mire in 7th place and got to the break with no hope of winning. Tried to make some trades with those at the top to unload expiring contracts for some cheap talent ... none wanted to deal.

My partner came up with a really dumb idea ... talk to the guys at the bottom of the league. We did, they wanted to deal and made trades to acquire some decent talent.

This could be a market to look in strange places.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:34 PM
Might as well give him a corner spot full-time and see what you've got. Especially considering the alternative is a lot of JHJ in LF.is there any real chance of that with Dusty managing?

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:35 PM
Yep. Been saying that for weeks. Time to short prospects and go long major leaguers.

Go get Halladay.

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:35 PM
is there any real chance of that with Dusty managing?

No

MikeS21
07-29-2009, 05:37 PM
The problem with "sexy" deals are that not every one agrees as to what is "sexy." Nor do I think Castelinni's penny pinching is the hold-up in making a splashy deal.

I think any deal for Rolen is about five years too late. He won't help THIS year, or next, or the year after. Halladay would be nice, but you'd have to give up so much good young talent in return, you set the franchise back another five years, and Halladay would be long before his supporting cast was restocked.

I honestly see NO deal that will help 2009, and very few deals that will help 2010. And a trade just for the sake of making a trade is the last thing I want to see.

If Jocketty can trade Arroyo, Harang, or Coco, go for it. But I think your return for them will be about like the return we got for Dunn.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 05:37 PM
May he be the next Jose Guillen.

Good point.

I thought Phillips' career was a good comp, but Guillen's career is a great comp for Balentien.

If he finds his stroke and trade him for the next Harang or Volquez once Frazier or someone else is ready to takeover full-time, so be it!

flyer85
07-29-2009, 05:39 PM
Good point.

I thought Phillips' career was a good comp, but Guillen's career is a great comp for Balentien.
Make sure the directions to the bathroom are clear.

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:39 PM
Make sure the directions to the bathroom are clear.

Or buy some plastic to cover Dusty's desk.

SirFelixCat
07-29-2009, 05:40 PM
Some like this move cuz it's a flyer on a player that still has potential to be good in exchange for a very replaceable part. Some want to bash this move cuz it's one in a long line of "small" moves when all they want is a big move. I'm in the first group although I just wish he still had options left. It will be interesting to see how he does in the Reds outfield in a day or two.

Agreed. But if he had options, he wouldn't have been DFA'd, but I hear what you're saying and I agree. I just pray this isn't "it" this year....

durl
07-29-2009, 05:40 PM
Ryan was the architect of the Twins' model.

Yes, Ryan put the team together but Krivsky seemed to want to follow his model. No mega-blockbuster moves. No big trades that took up the first 15 minutes of Sportscenter. Just bringing up your own talent.

In 2002, the Twins finished 1st with players like Ortiz, Hunter, Pierzynski, Mientkiewicz, Mohr...and they were all home-grown talent. Now they've got players like Mauer and Mourneau.

What many would see as boring activity on the part of the GM turned them into a team that has finished at least 2nd 7 of the past 10 seasons and won the division 4 times.

SirFelixCat
07-29-2009, 05:44 PM
Might as well give him a corner spot full-time and see what you've got. Especially considering the alternative is a lot of JHJ in LF.

I fully, 100% agree w/ this. He should be starting everyday for the rest of 09!

BRM
07-29-2009, 05:45 PM
Balentien is expected to join the team tomorrow or Friday and will wear uniform number 64.


http://redsintern.mlblogs.com/

VR
07-29-2009, 05:47 PM
That wasn't FCB's point -- his point was sexy / unsexy. None of those are sexy moves, but they're well thought out and well executed. They took guys other teams didn't want or weren't willing to bid big dollars for and acquired them based on the belief in their own ability to make them contributing major leaguers.

The point is you don't need to be flashy to win, you need to be smart. Sometimes the smartest moves aren't the sexiest.

Sorry, I wasn't responding to FCB's point, I was responding to yours....which is accurate.

If an organizaiton is neither 'smart' to know how to get the best out of marginal players, nor able to acquire the 'sexy', I believe it is called "Cincinnati Reds Baseball".

The Reds acquire players and 'hope' they'll turn out.

The Cards acquire players with a purpose, either short term or long term, and completely squeeze out every fragment of value out of them.

NC Reds
07-29-2009, 05:48 PM
Uniform number 64?

Will he be shoring up our offensive line?

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 05:49 PM
All teams need MLB talent.

So you're saying Rolen would put us over the top and into the playoffs next year FCB? If not, are you saying you'd offer him an extension beyond 2010 with his injury history and declining production? If neither, why bring him in and spend $11M for one year that could be spent elsewhere on someone with more future?

redsfandan
07-29-2009, 05:50 PM
If this trade was made a month ago, I think the reaction would have been almost universally positive. Right now, emotions are high with the trade deadline closing in.
I'll agree on that.

Agreed. But if he had options, he wouldn't have been DFA'd, but I hear what you're saying and I agree. I just pray this isn't "it" this year....
Just seems like he needs to work on some things but since the Reds outfield needs help now and the rest of the season is headed towards tryouts...

There's still plenty of time between now and then but here's the projected 2010 outfield:

Bruce
Dickerson
WT (unless he's DFA'd)
Balentien
& possibly Gomes?*

Throw in Heisey/Stubbs and any possible moves, if any, that the Reds make.

* I know Gomes is on a one year contract but I think he'll also be arbitration eligible after the season so he might be back. I need confirmation on this though.

Unless Balentien sets the world on fire the next couple months we still need a big bat for left.

wolfboy
07-29-2009, 05:52 PM
Yes, Ryan put the team together but Krivsky seemed to want to follow his model. No mega-blockbuster moves. No big trades that took up the first 15 minutes of Sportscenter. Just bringing up your own talent.

In 2002, the Twins finished 1st with players like Ortiz, Hunter, Pierzynski, Mientkiewicz, Mohr...and they were all home-grown talent. Now they've got players like Mauer and Mourneau.

What many would see as boring activity on the part of the GM turned them into a team that has finished at least 2nd 7 of the past 10 seasons and won the division 4 times.

You are dead on, except that Ortiz and Mohr weren't necessarily home grown. With that said, they were acquired through the type of non-sexy, smart moves you want.

reds44
07-29-2009, 05:52 PM
Number 64?

IslandRed
07-29-2009, 05:58 PM
In short, what we've got here is a prospect bubble.

Yep. The high cost of free agents makes it unfeasible as a team-building method for all but a handful of franchises, so teams hoard their best prospects and do their best to lock up young stars beyond the initial free-agency threshold. That reduces the supply of prime free agents, which drives up the price of the ones that hit the market, and... lather, rinse, repeat.

Like you said, it's a bubble. Popping it is simple enough in theory but the execution depends on the ability and willingness to buy full-fare tickets.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 06:02 PM
the "bubble" has been created by the likes of the Red Sox and Yankees. They could always be counted to deal prospects for veterans, starting a bit of a chain reaction. The past few seasons both teams have moved away from that model and now almost everyone won't trade their best prospects. The only exception I can think of is when the Braves dealt for Texeira.

RichRed
07-29-2009, 06:05 PM
Number 64?

Wladimir "The Commodore" Balentien!

Benihana
07-29-2009, 06:08 PM
the "bubble" has been created by the likes of the Red Sox and Yankees. They could always be counted to deal prospects for veterans, starting a bit of a chain reaction. The past few seasons both teams have moved away from that model and now almost everyone won't trade their best prospects. The only exception I can think of is when the Braves dealt for Texeira.

The Mariners mortgaged the farm for Bedard: Adam Jones, George Sherill and Chris Tillman. :eek:

GAC
07-29-2009, 06:11 PM
Looking at this guy's numbers, this trade is to help get the Reds through the rest of the season without promoting Stubbs or Heisey. This guy will play some outfield in 2009 -- seems like a long shot to be a regular going forward.

I think you nailed it pretty good. The Reds are down to only 3 healthy OFers. He's a stopgap to prevent rushing any youngster. He's another warm butt on the bench in case they need him.

TRF
07-29-2009, 06:12 PM
The Mariners mortgaged the farm for Bedard: Adam Jones, George Sherill and Chris Tillman. :eek:

The Bewers last year dealing for CC.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 06:13 PM
The Mariners mortgaged the farm for Bedard: Adam Jones, George Sherill and Chris Tillman. :eek:Bavasi deserves a special category

BRM
07-29-2009, 06:13 PM
Per Fay:

BAKER ON BALENTIEN: Baker hasnít seen Wladimir Balentien play much.

ďI talked to some people in Seattle,Ē he said. ďHeís real strong. Heís a little bit rough. Heís hasnít played much lately. Heís got some tools.

You canít know everybody. You go on the advice of our scouts and staff. We need some offensive help. He hasnít play in a while. It might take a few days before we get him in the lineup.Ē

Balentien went home to Arizona after being designated for assignment.

He could arrive tomorrow. But the Reds play a day game.

The Reds hope to have him hit off Volquez in the simulated game.

Somebdoy tweeted it earlier. But this trade is Jim Bowdenesque. Balentien has the tools to be good. But the numbers aren't there. Ruben Mateo, perhaps.

flyer85
07-29-2009, 06:14 PM
The Bewers last year dealing for CC.the Indians didn't get the Brewers best prospects. Just like they didn't this time around for Lee.

RichRed
07-29-2009, 06:17 PM
I think you nailed it pretty good. The Reds are down to only 3 healthy OFers. He's a stopgap to prevent rushing any youngster. He's another warm butt on the bench in case they need him.

Well, somebody's got to backup Jerry Hairston.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 06:19 PM
Per Fay:

BAKER ON BALENTIEN: Baker hasnít seen Wladimir Balentien play much.

ďI talked to some people in Seattle,Ē he said. ďHeís real strong. Heís a little bit rough. Heís hasnít played much lately. Heís got some tools.

You canít know everybody. You go on the advice of our scouts and staff. We need some offensive help. He hasnít play in a while. It might take a few days before we get him in the lineup.Ē

Balentien went home to Arizona after being designated for assignment.

He could arrive tomorrow. But the Reds play a day game.

The Reds hope to have him hit off Volquez in the simulated game.

Somebdoy tweeted it earlier. But this trade is Jim Bowdenesque. Balentien has the tools to be good. But the numbers aren't there. Ruben Mateo, perhaps.


Oh boy.

If Balentien doesn't get regular playing time for the rest of this year...

BRM
07-29-2009, 06:20 PM
Oh boy.

If Balentien doesn't get regular playing time for the rest of this year...

Don't hold your breath.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 06:21 PM
Another positive externality of this trade is that it doesn't force the Reds into bringing up Heisey and/or Stubbs before they're "ready."

My take?

With Heisey, there's no need to burn an option and start his clock now.
With Stubbs, there's no need to expose his lack of offensive ability against major league pitching and ruin his trade value.

TRF
07-29-2009, 06:23 PM
the Indians didn't get the Brewers best prospects. Just like they didn't this time around for Lee.

They got LaPorta right? Anything else? I don't remember the exact deal.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2009, 06:27 PM
As long as Balentien goes 1 for his first 100, he should have no problem getting playing time.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 06:27 PM
the Indians didn't get the Brewers best prospects. Just like they didn't this time around for Lee.

Because Sabathia was a rental, and because they did get LaPorta, I thought the Indians did pretty well in that deal. But in this case, they did not get any of the Phillies top 3-4 prospects despite the fact Lee is signed through next season. I think that's crazy.

Johnny Footstool
07-29-2009, 06:33 PM
I don't think this deal should be cause for much celebration or much hand-wringing. It's a fine deal, giving up a bullpen arm for an OF prospect with a decent ceiling.

HokieRed
07-29-2009, 06:36 PM
I don't think this deal should be cause for much celebration or much hand-wringing. It's a fine deal, giving up a bullpen arm for an OF prospect with a decent ceiling.


Agree. Seems a very reasonable estimate. Hopefully we'll see at least another deal. This one is what it is. I don't see what's not to like about it except as evidence the FO isn't trying to do more, and we don't know that, because we don't know what they're trying or how possible it is to deal what we consider our prime tradeables.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 06:40 PM
I don't think this deal should be cause for much celebration or much hand-wringing. It's a fine deal, giving up a bullpen arm for an OF prospect with a decent ceiling.

When there is a 356 post thread about the Reds maybe being on the verge of making a trade, you have to expect any move is going to be celebrated and hand-wrung at the same time.

I'm just genuinely excited that the deal wasn't horrible, and the player we acquired actually has a chance to be very good.

BRM
07-29-2009, 06:41 PM
When there is a 356 post thread about the Reds maybe being on the verge of making a trade, you have to expect any move is going to be celebrated and hand-wrung at the same time.

I'm just genuinely excited that the deal wasn't horrible, and the player we acquired actually has a chance to be very good.

The bolded part sums it up for me.

redsfandan
07-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Come to think of it this may also make Gomes expendable to any team that's interested. Gomes/Balentien are at least similar in that their defense makes them leftfielders and it's debatable whether either one should be a starter. Gomes has certainly made himself look more attractive to teams. Sell high with a Gomes/Weathers package for a B prospect?

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Sell high with a Gomes/Weathers package for a B prospect?

It would be like trading Jeff Conine all over again!

Kc61
07-29-2009, 07:01 PM
I don't think this deal should be cause for much celebration or much hand-wringing. It's a fine deal, giving up a bullpen arm for an OF prospect with a decent ceiling.


The problem is not with this deal.

The problem is that this is the deal.

Always Red
07-29-2009, 07:06 PM
cool- the Reds now have their very own Wlad.

Let's hope he turns into an impaler.

I like this deal. This year is dead, it keeps the young guys playing where they belong in AAA, and it gives enough time to Balentien to see if he has what it takes. Change of scenery and all that. If he's terrible, release him at the end of the year and hope he doesn't turn into Jorge Cantu for someone else.

The only problem with that scenario is it will take Balentien at least half a year to become one of "Dusty's guys" and "earn" himself any meaningful playing time.

I've seen enough of Nix. I'm ready to watch someone else struggle. :)

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 07:09 PM
The problem is not with this deal.

The problem is that this is the deal.

Yep.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 07:14 PM
Yep.

If that's the case, then it's on your boy Walt.

VR
07-29-2009, 07:15 PM
Per Fay:

BAKER ON BALENTIEN: Baker hasnít seen Wladimir Balentien play much.

ďI talked to some people in Seattle,Ē he said. ďHeís real strong. Heís a little bit rough. Heís hasnít played much lately. Heís got some tools.

You canít know everybody. You go on the advice of our scouts and staff. We need some offensive help. He hasnít play in a while. It might take a few days before we get him in the lineup.Ē



Completed quote
.....and we thought bringing in a guy with a .619 Career OPS could fill that need"

Brutus
07-29-2009, 07:17 PM
The problem is not with this deal.

The problem is that this is the deal.

Not really sure how this means anything. Any team should be looking for these types of deals regardless of their situation. Even if the Reds were a 'well-run' team, by standards on here, this is the kind of deal you should be looking to make when at all possible. I'm not seeing how that should be an issue. Regardless of the standing of the franchise, this is still a no-lose situation.

Marty and Joe
07-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Excellent chance to take. Young guy with definite upside. His new home park will only help him compared to Seattle also. I like it and hope there is more to come.

Benihana
07-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Granted it's now 15 months old, but here's a good perspective on Balentien and his talents:

http://www.seattlepi.com/baseball/361126_mfarm30.html

It seems he is pretty good defensively. Does anyone have any insight otherwise?

11larkin11
07-29-2009, 07:27 PM
Granted it's now 15 months old, but here's a good perspective on Balentien and his talents:

http://www.seattlepi.com/baseball/361126_mfarm30.html

It seems he is pretty good defensively. Does anyone have any insight otherwise?

He's got great power. At least, in the minors he did. Looking at the Fielding stats, he has his boneheaded plays, but has lots of assists, so he may have a cannon.

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2009, 07:32 PM
Solid deal. I just hope it's not the only move the Reds can make this week.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2009, 07:37 PM
Until he hits Major League pitching, this is no big deal. He has not proven he can hit--curious for a team that needs hitting. Add his career .209 bat in the lineup and you've got Corey Patterson with pop.

Sorry, but after the guys we've brought up from the minors who were world beaters in AAA, I have no faith in minor league stats. None.

VR
07-29-2009, 07:47 PM
Solid deal. I just hope it's not the only move the Reds can make this week.

I agree completely. Wlad the impaler is someone the Reds should look to acquire, especially coming from a pitcher's park.

But big picture, we need some dominos to start falling.

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2009, 07:49 PM
O'Neill for Balentien?
Posted by JohnFay at 7/29/2009 6:25 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

In a very roundabout way, the Reds get Wladimir Balentien for Paul O'Neill.

It's a old gag based on the fact that when people mentioned the O'Neill trade to Jim Bowden he would point out how the Reds really got Sean Casey for O'Niell.

Let's see if I can get this right:

The Reds traded O'Neill the Yankees for Roberto Kelly. They traded Kelly to Atlanta to get Deion Sanders. They traded Sanders to San Francisco to get Dave Burba. They traded Burba to Cleveland to get Sean Casey. They traded Casey to Pittsburgh to get Dave Williams. They traded Williams to the Mets to get Robert Manuel. They traded Manuel to Seattle to get Balentien.

Other players were involved but you get the point.

It's sort of like how you can link any actor to Kevin Bacon in six moves.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a66c65a23-5969-4209-bf1f-62504f343130&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Benihana
07-29-2009, 07:50 PM
Until he hits Major League pitching, this is no big deal. He has not proven he can hit--curious for a team that needs hitting. Add his career .209 bat in the lineup and you've got Corey Patterson with pop.

Sorry, but after the guys we've brought up from the minors who were world beaters in AAA, I have no faith in minor league stats. None.

The difference between Balentien and guys like Adam Rosales and Drew Sutton is that Balentien was considered a premium prospect, not just a AAAA player.

Therefore I'd put him more in the Jose Guillen/Brandon Phillips category than the Adam Rosales/Drew Sutton category. Of course there are no guarantees, but I hope he pans out as well as the former two.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 07:52 PM
O'Neill for Balentien?
Posted by JohnFay at 7/29/2009 6:25 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

In a very roundabout way, the Reds get Wladimir Balentien for Paul O'Neill.

It's a old gag based on the fact that when people mentioned the O'Neill trade to Jim Bowden he would point out how the Reds really got Sean Casey for O'Niell.

Let's see if I can get this right:

The Reds traded O'Neill the Yankees for Roberto Kelly. They traded Kelly to Atlanta to get Deion Sanders. They traded Sanders to San Francisco to get Dave Burba. They traded Burba to Cleveland to get Sean Casey. They traded Casey to Pittsburgh to get Dave Williams. They traded Williams to the Mets to get Robert Manuel. They traded Manuel to Seattle to get Balentien.

Other players were involved but you get the point.

It's sort of like how you can link any actor to Kevin Bacon in six moves.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a66c65a23-5969-4209-bf1f-62504f343130&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Fay reads the Redszone, huh?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 07:54 PM
Therefore I'd put him more in the Jose Guillen/Brandon Phillips category than the Adam Rosales/Drew Sutton category. Of course there are no guarantees, but I hope he pans out as well as the former two.

Agree. Freaky how similar he is to Guillen. Low risk, high reward deal.

Highlifeman21
07-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Solid deal. I just hope it's not the only move the Reds can make this week.

Wouldn't surprise me if this was the only deal made between now and Friday...

11larkin11
07-29-2009, 07:56 PM
The difference between Balentien and guys like Adam Rosales and Drew Sutton is that Balentien was considered a premium prospect, not just a AAAA player.

Therefore I'd put him more in the Jose Guillen/Brandon Phillips category than the Adam Rosales/Drew Sutton category. Of course there are no guarantees, but I hope he pans out as well as the former two.

Exactly. The Brandon Phillips trade is a great comparison, with Manuel being more a a value than Jeff Stevens (is that right?). Nothing to lose here.

savafan
07-29-2009, 07:56 PM
Fay reads the Redszone, huh?

Saw John Fay on the Reds broadcast the other night. He looks like the kind of guy who reads Redszone...and plays Dungeons and Dragons in his mom's basement. ;)


I don't understand the "sky is falling" attitude here. There are still 2 days until the trading deadline. I'd rather the Reds think thoroughly about what they want to do rather than act impulsive. Geez, many of you are acting like you're jumping off the Titanic before it ever left port. :D

RedEye
07-29-2009, 07:56 PM
Nice! I don't think you can go wrong trading a fringe MR for a potential all-around OF star who is still only 24. Sure, it may not work out, but the downside is not all that bad--even if Manuel is solid for many years and Wlad busts, we will still all concur it was worth a shot. Low risk, high reward move = just the right kind of deal.

jojo
07-29-2009, 07:56 PM
He sure did.

Wasn't this kid high on a lot of lists?

Was he out of options or something?

I wish jojo was still around to give us the scoop.

I really like this trade for the Reds.

The Ms basically get a bag of balls for a guy with zero role in their organisation and the Reds get "upside" for basically nothing.

That said, Wlad is probably a long shot to be a Red next May. He's out of options, has poor plate discipline and trouble with offspeed stuff. He's a mediocre defender as well. Basically he's a corner outfielder who can hit the ball really far but has yet to show he can do it consistently against major league pitching while failing to show he can do much of anything else.

He'll hopefully get some solid playing time this season and then get a chance to make mthe club next spring. The Reds will have Bruce, Taveras, Dickerson and the two CFers doing the sme thing. Maybe even Nix and Gomes will still be around to challenge for platoon roles.

At this point, Wlad is flintstone vitamins-i.e. cheap insurance.

Kudos to the Reds for getting him for nothing but at the same time, he's swimming against the current.

Sounds like just the type of guy who is fun to root for....

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 07:59 PM
If that's the case, then it's on your boy Walt.

Absolutely. And his penny-pinching handlers.

Always Red
07-29-2009, 08:01 PM
Fay reads the Redszone, huh?

He not only reads Redszone, he rips off the content and passes it off as his own work. :thumbdown

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 08:01 PM
I really like this trade for the Reds.

The Ms basically get a bag of balls for a guy with zero role in their organisation and the Reds get "upside" for basically nothing.

That said, Wlad is probably a long shot to be a Red next May. He's out of options, has poor plate discipline and trouble with offspeed stuff. He's a mediocre defender as well. Basically he's a corner outfielder who can hit the ball really far but has yet to show he can do it consistently against major league pitching while failing to show he can do much of anything else.

He'll hopefully get some solid playing time this season and then get a chance to make mthe club next spring. The Reds will have Bruce, Taveras, Dickerson and the two CFers doing the sme thing. Maybe even Nix and Gomes will still be around to challenge for platoon roles.

At this point, Wlad is flintstone vitamins-i.e. cheap insurance.

Kudos to the Reds for getting him for nothing but at the same time, he's swimming against the current.

Sounds like just the type of guy who is fun to root for....

Great stuff. He also seems like the kind of guy that needs to start from here on out so that they know what they got going into 2010.

I would also hope that even though WT makes $4M next year that they look at him as a sunk cost and dump him before they let any potential decent players go in the spring.

savafan
07-29-2009, 08:02 PM
He not only reads Redszone, he rips off the content and passes it off as his own work. :thumbdown

So...which one of us is he? :dunno:

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 08:03 PM
Anyone can lurk on the ORG.

Always Red
07-29-2009, 08:04 PM
So...which one of us is he? :dunno:

Well, I know for sure that he is not Matt700WLW.

I miss Matt's traffic reports in the morning.

savafan
07-29-2009, 08:05 PM
Well, I know for sure that he is not Matt700WLW.

I miss Matt's traffic reports in the morning.

Or were they John Fay's traffic reports? Hmmm... ;)

Falls City Beer
07-29-2009, 08:06 PM
Matt spells too well.

Always Red
07-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Matt spells too well.

And he also writes much better than Fay.

Ltlabner
07-29-2009, 08:08 PM
Interesting low risk/high reward lotto ticket sorta move. As someone else said, neither a very good move or very bad move on the surface. Likely some outfield depth for the remainder of this year with the hopes he shows something useful for next.

Plug him in LF and see what you have. That is, if Dusty can "find room" for him.

Have to give Walt bonus points for getting a guy nobody expected (although in the back of my mind I seem to remember someone maybe mentioning him once or something).

savafan
07-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Matt spells too well.

Good point!

savafan
07-29-2009, 08:12 PM
And he also writes much better than Fay.

Okay, I'm convinced that Matt isn't Fay :p:

jojo
07-29-2009, 08:15 PM
Great stuff. He also seems like the kind of guy that needs to start from here on out so that they know what they got going into 2010.

I would also hope that even though WT makes $4M next year that they look at him as a sunk cost and dump him before they let any potential decent players go in the spring.

One thing that is in Wlad's favor is that he no longer has the burden of being a righthanded hitter in Safeco.

*BaseClogger*
07-29-2009, 08:26 PM
He's out of options, has poor plate discipline and trouble with offspeed stuff. He's a mediocre defender as well. Basically he's a corner outfielder who can hit the ball really far but has yet to show he can do it consistently against major league pitching while failing to show he can do much of anything else.

http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pdvd_004bmp-724091.jpg

savafan
07-29-2009, 08:30 PM
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pdvd_004bmp-724091.jpg

Easy fix. Just need one of these.

http://americancrow.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/jobu.jpg

wheels
07-29-2009, 09:08 PM
15 pages on Wlad.

We are a thirsty lot.

jojo
07-29-2009, 09:15 PM
15 pages on Wlad.

We are a thirsty lot.

This thread in some ways reminds me of the first years with my wife-sometimes the argument had nothing to do with what we were arguing about.

WMR
07-29-2009, 09:17 PM
Let's just hope that this is the precursor to several more moves.

I am fine with this move taken on its own merits, but if this represents the entirety of the moves made by the Reds by July 31st then I will be very, very disappointed.

savafan
07-29-2009, 09:19 PM
If teams aren't offering anything back in return, then I won't be upset if the Reds make no other moves. We tend to forget that it takes two to make a trade, and if nothing is coming back the Reds' way, then there's not a whole lot they can do.

Johnny Footstool
07-29-2009, 09:22 PM
The problem is not with this deal.

The problem is that this is the deal.

Well, sure. But there are still a couple of days before the deadline. If Friday passes and this deal is the only move the team makes, then I'll commence to wringing my hands.

WMR
07-29-2009, 09:24 PM
If teams aren't offering anything back in return, then I won't be upset if the Reds make no other moves. We tend to forget that it takes two to make a trade, and if nothing is coming back the Reds' way, then there's not a whole lot they can do.

I'm sure that that's the exact excuse they'll use if they don't get anything else done. More loser-speak from the Reds. Funny how other teams are able to make things happen but the Reds never seem quite able to get it together.

Let's hope WJ is able to break free from the Reds stasis of suck before Friday and make some inventive moves.

savafan
07-29-2009, 09:25 PM
I'm sure that that's the exact excuse they'll use if they don't get anything else done. More loser-speak from the Reds. Funny how other teams are able to make things happen but the Reds never seem quite able to get it together.



It's not funny at all, but the Reds don't exactly have players the caliber of Matt Holliday or Cliff Lee to deal now, do they? Teams have to want what the Reds are offering, and vice versa.

Superdude
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
I'd still like to see either Harang or Arroyo moved, but this is the kind of rollin' the dice move I like to see...especially from Jocketty whose played a fairly conservative hand so far in his time here.

WMR
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
It's not funny at all, but the Reds don't exactly have players the caliber of Matt Holliday or Cliff Lee to deal now, do they? Teams have to want what the Reds are offering, and vice versa.

I'm just done with making excuses for why the Reds continue to fail. Eventually, you either get some things done or you don't. The Reds have got plenty of assets that could be shifted around to improve the 25/40 man roster through inventive trades.

Hell, DFA Willy T and at least show me you're paying attention!

Sea Ray
07-29-2009, 09:30 PM
The only downside is turning him over to Dusty. "Don't be clogging the bases, son"


Dusty said on the pre game show "I don't know too much about him but our scouts like him"

Way to sound knowledgable Dusty. You are one impressive manager :rolleyes:

savafan
07-29-2009, 09:32 PM
Dusty said on the pre game show "I don't know too much about him but our scouts like him"

Way to sound knowledgable Dusty. You are one impressive manager :rolleyes:

To be fair, Dusty probably doesn't get to see too many Mariner games while managing the Reds. That's why teams have scouts.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 09:33 PM
Dusty said on the pre game show "I don't know too much about him but our scouts like him"

Way to sound knowledgable Dusty. You are one impressive manager :rolleyes:

Why should he know anything about him? He's probably never managed against Seattle when Balentien was there. I'm not much of a Dusty supporter, but there's no reason Baker should know much about this kid to this point.

Sea Ray
07-29-2009, 09:38 PM
Let's put it this way. Most of us have seen him play and know about him and we work 40-50 hrs a week at our real jobs. Dusty ought to do more than just watch Reds games.

joshnky
07-29-2009, 09:53 PM
Let's put it this way. Most of us have seen him play and know about him and we work 40-50 hrs a week at our real jobs. Dusty ought to do more than just watch Reds games.

Really? I'd guess that 90% of Redszone has never seen this kid play and all they know about him is from this board.

Also, criticizing Dusty for not watching the Mariners is ridiculous. I'd much rather he spent his time watching the Reds and teams they actually play.

PuffyPig
07-29-2009, 09:54 PM
Let's put it this way. Most of us have seen him play and know about him and we work 40-50 hrs a week at our real jobs. Dusty ought to do more than just watch Reds games.

Well, I for one would rather he be watching the Reds play than seeing him in the dugout glued to the tube diamond surfing for other games.

Brutus
07-29-2009, 10:07 PM
Let's put it this way. Most of us have seen him play and know about him and we work 40-50 hrs a week at our real jobs. Dusty ought to do more than just watch Reds games.

Well, first off, these people put in a lot more time than people realize. It's not just show up at the ballpark at 3 PM and leave at 11 PM and done. These managers are at the park putting in work a lot than they're given credit for. It just never gets discussed because it's something we don't think about. But they're not your typical 40-50 hour a week workers.

I can't speak for baseball managers as much, because I don't know any that well, but I know some coaches in college and pros in other sports, and I can tell you that many of them aren't spending much time watching other teams unless it's preparing for games against those teams or scouting them.

Usually these folks, when they're anywhere near the ballpark, are watching video, breaking down scouting reports and such. They're not scouring the internet, visiting message boards, watching ESPN or viewing MLB TV.

When these guys aren't putting in their 60, 70 or 80 hours a week (and I am willing to bet that's about how much many of them put in), they're spending the rest of their time with their families as much as possible and not paying attention to baseball. We use baseball to get away from the stresses of our real jobs. For them, baseball is their life and the time they aren't preparing for their work is time to get away from baseball.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
I just read this whole thread!!!

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
I just read this whole thread!!!

Sweetness.

You now are the proud owner of a 2009 commemorative Wladimir Balentien trade deadline pin.

Please wait 6-8 weeks for delivery.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 11:35 PM
Not bad. The rest of this season is just an audition for next year and beyond anyway. Didn't give up much, there's portential for lightning in a bottle and not much downside. Only possible negative would be if he's still not producing this time next year and he's still in the lineup on a regular basis. Then again, if it's not him, chances are it will just be another crappy OFer. At least thi crappy OFer has power.

I will be disappointed though if this is the only move before the deadline.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-29-2009, 11:36 PM
Geez, many of you are acting like you're jumping off the Titanic before it ever left port. :D

If the Titanic were still at port, wouldn't it be more advisable to simply walk off the ship than jump into the water? :p:

savafan
07-29-2009, 11:38 PM
If the Titanic were still at port, wouldn't it be more advisable to simply walk off the ship than jump into the water? :p:

It would be, but some of these reactions are logically akin to jumping off. ;)

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 12:18 AM
Well, I for one would rather he be watching the Reds play than seeing him in the dugout glued to the tube diamond surfing for other games.

Although I think he'd rather be watching other games than watching the Reds lately.

REDREAD
07-30-2009, 12:26 AM
No need for options with Balentien:

1. He has nothing left to prove in the minors.
2. The AAA OF is currently loaded.
3. The major league OF is currently barren.

There will never be a better opportunity for Balentien to have an extended tryout and try to right himself than in the Reds OF for the remainder of 2009.

Exactly, I don't care if Balentien has no options. It's not as if carrying him on the roster is going to block a more deserving candidate. If Balentein flops, he can be cut at any time. He won't have to play that well to stick as a cheap backup OF for a couple years. That's more value than what we gave up.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2009, 01:23 AM
Great move! And moves like this should always be made, despite what other moves are/aren't being made. Balentein as has been said represents a chance to be something and a chance is well worth Robert "middling" Manuel. That it wasn't a bigger deal bothers me not, I had that temper tantrum about a month and a half of ago when I realized we weren't taking on money at all this season.

As someone in the Sundeck so elequently put it you just dealt a dollar for a chance at a thousand dollars. Now I'll put my own spin on it, we might still be out there looking for that nice crisp Benjamin but no sense passing up on that 1 dollar scratch off just because it doesn't read "gauranteed" on the face of it. Money well spent no matter what happens.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2009, 02:50 AM
Pretty informative piece about him here.

Link (http://www.seattlepi.com/baseball/361126_mfarm30.html)


Last updated April 29, 2008 9:46 p.m. PT

Farm Report: Balentien showing outstanding progress
Trained eyes say he could help Mariners with glove and bat
By JASON A. CHURCHILL
SPECIAL TO THE P-I

When the Mariners traded outfield prospect Adam Jones to Baltimore as part of the package that brought ace Erik Bedard to Seattle, part of the club's rationale was the depth behind Jones in the farm system.

Outfield prospect Wladimir Balentien, 23, has performed well at every level of the minors and turned his game up a notch last season at Triple-A Tacoma. He has always had middle-of-the-order power, but was more of a slugger than a hitter until the 2007 season.

"He was a free swinger, really," said one American League scout. "Not really all-or-nothing, but close. Lots of problems making contact and his swing was longer than ideal."

Balentien came into 2007 having posted 300 strikeouts over the previous two seasons. The power remained, but the whiffs were holding him back. And then he flipped the switch.

"It just looked like it started clicking for him, not one thing in particular," said the scout. "He began to stay off that breaking ball away and put himself into better counts."

Balentien hit .291 with 24 home runs and 24 doubles in 124 games for Tacoma last season and reduced his strikeout total from 140 to 105 in the same number of plate appearances. He also induced 54 walks and continued to play solid defense.

"His power is what's interesting," the scout said. "His big power swing is still there, but it's quicker and shorter, which has helped him make contact.

"He's improved from year to year, and that's a good sign for a young player. Without a stall in his development along the way, you can have more confidence that his physical projection can work itself out ... I think there are 30 home runs in that bat, and maybe 30 or 40 doubles."

But Balentien is not just a slugger anymore. Progress with his strike zone judgment and overall plate discipline have his hitting coach thinking big things are ahead for the Curacao native, who is making a case for a promotion to Seattle with a strong showing in Tacoma this month.

The 6-foot-2, 215-pounder smacked three home runs in Tacoma's 15-9 victory over New Orleans Monday night at Cheney Stadium, the final round-tripper being of the inside-the-park variety. He drove in five runs, and with his race around the bases in the eighth inning, showed the knee injury (earlier this season) is certainly not going to stop him.

"He was on every pitch all night," said an AL Central scout in attendance. "He's strong and may not have even got all of any of them, and they all went soaring. He showed he can run, too. That wasn't a gift four-bagger there -- he was moving."

"Wlad has made strides in all areas the past year or so," said Rainiers hitting instructor Alonzo Powell. "He's putting together good at-bats, grinding them out, and he gets good pitches to hit more often than he was before.

"He's not a swinger, he's a hitter, and that's what we've worked on since day one. He has a chance to be a really good run producer."

Powell agrees with scouts that Balentien's defense could prove to be just as valuable to the 2008 Mariners as might his offensive production.

"He gets good reads out there, and he can play in either corner," said Powell, a former outfielder who played 15 professional seasons in the states and five more in Japan.

The scout's take on Balentien further suggests he's closer to the big leagues than teammate Jeff Clement, the Rainiers' power-hitting catcher.

"The Mariners could use some defense in the corners of their outfield, in my opinion," he said. "In left field, when they're home, there is so much ground to cover, and without a lot of offense they need to prevent runs any way they can. Balentien is a capable defender in either corner, and he's not going to hurt a lineup with his bat. He can hit, too.

"Last I checked, Seattle could use help in either corner, and it's not just an offensive problem. I really think Balentien is someone who would make them better right now. I think a lot of people underestimate his future."

Topcat
07-30-2009, 03:40 AM
Love the trade! We just turned Dave Williams into this kid:), I am pleased as hell by this trade. I am commenting just on this trade nothing more.

I hope there are more trades for sure but on this deal a serious :thumbup:, it is a no lose proposition. Now play him till he pukes or drops dead rest of season.

Ron Madden
07-30-2009, 04:27 AM
Saw John Fay on the Reds broadcast the other night. He looks like the kind of guy who reads Redszone...and plays Dungeons and Dragons in his mom's basement. ;)


I don't understand the "sky is falling" attitude here. There are still 2 days until the trading deadline. I'd rather the Reds think thoroughly about what they want to do rather than act impulsive. Geez, many of you are acting like you're jumping off the Titanic before it ever left port. :D


If I was going to jump off the Titanic, I could think of no better time than before it left port. ;)

savafan
07-30-2009, 04:28 AM
If I was going to jump off the Titanic, I could think of no better time than before it left port. ;)

This may have been the worst analogy created in the history of mankind...

durl
07-30-2009, 11:30 AM
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pdvd_004bmp-724091.jpg

And now the guy sells insurance on TV...

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 11:31 AM
And now the guy sells insurance on TV...

But he was once President.

TRF
07-30-2009, 11:42 AM
But he was once President.

and leads a kickass team of special forces guys.

Unassisted
07-30-2009, 12:36 PM
and leads a kickass team of special forces guys.Not anymore, thanks to CBS's unceasing quest to populate its entire primetime schedule with acronym shows.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Reds Add Wlad
by Erik Manning - 7/30/2009 -

Big trades ruled the day yesterday. A minor deal that flew under the radar was the Reds buying low on Wladimir Balentien, having acquired him from Seattle for right-handed reliever Robert Manuel. Mís fans had to be hoping for a better return than a 26-year old reliever who recently broke into the big leagues. Manuel has notable minor league numbers but has done it with guile and pedestrian stuff.

Balentienís descend from grace has been pretty dramatic. In 2008, Balentien was considered to be one of the better prospects in all of baseball. He just missed the cut on Baseball Americaís Top 100 and the tough-grading John Sickels gave him a B+ grade. Balentien was coming off a season in which he hit .291/.362/.509 as a 22-year old in Triple-A, having shown improvement in pitch recognition after formerly being a hacker of the highest order. His minor league success didn't translate to big league success. He was shuttled back and forth between Tacoma and Seattle last year and after posting a .269 wOBA in 434 major league plate appearances, Balentien was out of options and Jack Z. was out of patience. Wladimir was designated for assignment.

Yesterday, here and all over the blogosphere you read a lot of snap judgments as to what teams won what trade based on the package of prospects they were getting in return. I think Balentien illustrates that prospect grading will never be a perfect science, and even those who are considered to be very good prospects still have high rates of attrition. I for one love the snap judgments and make them myself based on scouting reports, the research that we have and by my own gut. But we wonít really know who won these trades until a few years from now.

http://www.fangraphs.com/