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reds44
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
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Reds manager Dusty Baker has rarely fired on his team.

He did Wednesday after the 7-1 loss to San Diego Padres, a game in which the Reds had a total of one hit.

“This is totally unacceptable,” Baker said. “It is embarrassing. It is pitiful. This is terrible.”

Baker questioned the team’s effort and enthusiasm.

“You’ve got to get after them,” Baker said. “They’re taking it to us. We’re not getting after it. We’ve got to do a whole lot better than this.

“Like I said, this is pitiful.”

The Reds have lost two of the first three in the four-game series with the Padres. The Padres, mind you, were 4-19 in the month of July when they came to Cincinnati.

“They’re not a good club,” Baker said. “They’re beating us like this. What does that make us?”

I'm sure plenty of you on the blog will be glad to answer that question.


It's about time somebody in the organization did it.

RFS62
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
“They’re not a good club,” Baker said. “They’re beating us like this. What does that make us?”


Lollygaggers?

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
It's been a long time since I heard a coach or manager in ANY sport refer to an opponent as "Not a good team/club/squad" publicly. They may think it, or say it privately, but all you ever hear or see printed is coachspeak™ like "They're a good ballclub" or "They've got some good players" etc.

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
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It's about time somebody in the organization did it.

Awesome! Finally!

I just hope this anger and frustration leads to getting rid of some deadwood, and bringing up and bringing in some fresh blood.

M2
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Did he have his shirt on?

reds44
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Awesome! Finally!

I just hope this anger and frustration leads to getting rid of some deadwood, and bringing up and bringing in some fresh blood.
Hopefully it leads to something because this is as embarassed as I have been to be a Reds fan in a long time.

It takes a lot for a players manager as much as Dusty is to lay into his team like that.

redsfan4445
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
then start by firing the hitting coach.. thats a good start too

Kc61
07-29-2009, 10:55 PM
I'm not sure his players are the correct target. With the injuries, the team is woefully short in the talent department. He has two true starting players, maybe three, in his lineup. The starting pitchers are trying, it's just that Harang and Arroyo aren't that good at this point and Bailey and Cueto are kids.

The people he needs to talk to are Walt and Bob. I'm not sure anger at the players will get him very far.

savafan
07-29-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, he didn't go all Lee Elia, but this is something.

Dusty will have to start feeling the pressure eventually if this continues, it's inevitable.

savafan
07-29-2009, 10:56 PM
then start by firing the hitting coach.. thats a good start too

Have we actually heard of anything Jacoby has implemented since he arrived here?

reds44
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
Wasn't Jacoby hired because of Dunn?

Has any Reds hitter actually gotten better while he is here?

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
I'm not sure his players are the correct target. With the injuries, the team is woefully short in the talent department. He has two true starting players, maybe three, in his lineup. The starting pitchers are trying, it's just that Harang and Arroyo aren't that good at this point.

The people he needs to talk to are Walt and Bob.

I'm a big Jocketty supporter, but his refusal to put players on the DL and call up reinforcements is beyond ridiculous. It has probably cost the Reds 3-5 games minimum this season. There is no excuse for it. A MLB team should be at full strength at all times.

reds44
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
I'm a big Jocketty supporter, but his refusal to put players on the DL and call up reinforcements is beyond ridiculous. It has probably cost the Reds 3-5 games minimum this season. There is no excuse for it. A MLB team should be at full strength at all times.
I'd rather play with 24 than have Corky Miller up here.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
“This is totally unacceptable,” Baker said. “It is embarrassing. It is pitiful. This is terrible.”


Is he talking about those responsible for this 25-man roster construction or the job he's done managing them? Plenty of unaccepables and embarrassings to go around.

Stormy
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
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It's about time somebody in the organization did it.

God bless him. I've learned over the course of the past 2 years that although I strongly disagree with Dusty philosophically on virtually all personnel usage issues, his negative impact on the Reds is fractional compared to the lack of innovation being demonstrated by this front office. Dusty contributed to this failed roster design and seemingly apathetic clubhouse more than we can imagine, but he's ultimately not the architect. It's nice to see him lay into this all-too-complacent organization.

Hopefully his tangent wakes somebody up upstairs.

reds44
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
I don't even know how anybody can honestly blame Dusty for this garbage.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 11:01 PM
Sounds like a HS football coach circa a long time ago.

“You’ve got to get after them,”

“They’re taking it to us. We’re not getting after it."

LOL.

Sounds like something from Rudy.

jojo
07-29-2009, 11:01 PM
I thought this was Dusty's team....

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
I think if the Reds simply traded EE+ for Rolen and accept whatever salary relief the Jays will offer, even if it's none, that would go a long way to shaking up this team. I am not a big fan of "clubhouse" guys, but this is a case where the Reds could really use a veteran who can inject some fire into them, and Rolen is perfect for that role.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
I thought this was Dusty's team....

Nah, it's not his fault. It never is. It's not anyone's fault. The reinforcements are coming.

reds44
07-29-2009, 11:03 PM
I think if the Reds simply traded EE+ for Rolen and accept whatever salary relief the Jays will offer, even if it's none, that would go a long way to shaking up this team. I am not a big fan of "clubhouse" guys, but this is a case where the Reds could really use a veteran who can inject some fire into them, and Rolen is perfect for that role.
So getting older and more expensive is the direction we should go in?

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:04 PM
I thought this was Dusty's team....

It is, and hopefully he can learn something from that.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
At least Dusty is getting paid $3.5 million, per year, for a front row seat of the trainwreck.

We all get nada.

Jpup
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
I said many months ago that Dusty would be given the players he wanted and then he would be allowed to get himself fired. It's coming. 70 wins is still my prediction.

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
So getting older and more expensive is the direction we should go in?

Yes. For a team that is too inexperienced and full of too many "bargains", that is exactly what it needs. Someone with experience, who may be expensive, but is worth his salary.

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
I said many months ago that Dusty would be given the players he wanted and then he would be allowed to get himself fired. It's coming. 70 wins is still my prediction.

Maybe Jocketty is smarter than we think?

reds44
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Yes. For a team that is too inexperienced and full of too many "bargains", that is exactly what it needs. Someone with experience, who may be expensive, but is worth his salary.
This team needs be trading their old, expensive, hurt guys (as in Arroyo and Harang) and not acquiring new ones.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Maybe Jocketty is smarter than we think?

That would be genius.

The best acquisition WJ can make in the off-season is Duncan, LaRussa, or both.

Do that, and 2009 will be forgiven.

M2
07-29-2009, 11:12 PM
Didn't Dusty have a moment like this his last season with the Cubs?

flyer85
07-29-2009, 11:12 PM
I guess now the losing really stops

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:14 PM
That would be genius.

The best acquisition WJ can make in the off-season is Duncan, LaRussa, or both.

Do that, and 2009 will be forgiven.

If the Cards do not make the Playoffs, I could see them part ways with LaRussa and Duncan. LaRussa insisted they get players like Holliday, Lugo, and DeRosa, so it's his bed he's making.

RedsManRick
07-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Yup. If only we tried harder we'd be a much better team. It's not a talent issue at all. When half of your lineup is sub-replacement quality, nights like these happen. I know you can't call guys out merely for not being talented, but that's the hand he's been dealt (and in part requested).

CTA513
07-29-2009, 11:15 PM
I'm sure the Padres know they suck and I bet they probably don't want to hear another teams manager say that.

TheNext44
07-29-2009, 11:15 PM
This team needs be trading their old, expensive, hurt guys (as in Arroyo and Harang) and not acquiring new ones.

This teams needs players with more talent. Rolen is exactly that.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2009, 11:18 PM
This teams needs players with more talent. Rolen is exactly that.


Debatable and probably for another thread.

Stormy
07-29-2009, 11:18 PM
I think if the Reds simply traded EE+ for Rolen and accept whatever salary relief the Jays will offer, even if it's none, that would go a long way to shaking up this team. I am not a big fan of "clubhouse" guys, but this is a case where the Reds could really use a veteran who can inject some fire into them, and Rolen is perfect for that role.

You know, I can actually see where you're going with this, but I fear that the current rosters a little too muddled to make it work. Rolen would be a great fit if we had a team filled with talented youth that we were just waiting to mature. His leadership, professionalism, and production would be just the ticket. However, in this case, we have such a mishmash at so many positions.

We need to divest ourselves of numerous overpaid/underproductive vets (Gonzo, Taveras, Arroyo, Harang?), need to actually identify and acquire targets from outside the organization to fill existing voids (SS, LF etc...) ,and then still need to sift through our arriving farmhands to sort contenders from pretenders (Heisey, Stubbs, Frazier, Alonso). There is so much to do, and we haven't even taken the first step in that direction yet. I worry that Rolen would be wasted on a team that's "neither here nor there" yet.

M2
07-29-2009, 11:22 PM
I'm sure the Padres know they suck and I bet they probably don't want to hear another teams manager say that.

And I imagine they'll be a little extra motivated in tomorrow's getaway contest.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 11:22 PM
This teams needs players with more talent. Rolen is exactly that.

Again, an injury-plagued vet with declining numbers (who you would be insane to re-up) for one year @$11M (a year when this team has virtually no chance of contending). Why?


Yeah, this team definitely needs a huge influx of talent, but at the same time, they do not need to be throwing away big chunks of money at targets with no future.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 11:23 PM
Serenity Now!!!!!

savafan
07-29-2009, 11:25 PM
This team needs be trading their old, expensive, hurt guys (as in Arroyo and Harang) and not acquiring new ones.

You can't always just look at a guy and say he's old and expensive, you have to ask if he's better than the option that is currently in place as well.

savafan
07-29-2009, 11:27 PM
Bring in Dave Parker to be the hitting coach. Something tells me that would shake up the clubhouse.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 11:27 PM
You can't always just look at a guy and say he's old and expensive, you have to ask if he's better than the option that is currently in place as well.

Would you sign him to an extension Say 2yrs/$14M ($7M per) for 20112-2013?

savafan
07-29-2009, 11:30 PM
Would you sign him to an extension Say 2yrs/$14M ($7M per) for 20112-2013?

I can't say one way or another right now, I'd want to see a medical report.

corkedbat
07-29-2009, 11:42 PM
I can't say one way or another right now, I'd want to see a medical report.

That's my only problem with him. If he can't be here beyond next year then save the cash and trading chips and deal for somone else who can contribute at least a couple of years. His medical history and declining power makes me highly afraid of re-signing him toan extension. This is just the kind of deal that tie up dollars that could be spent on something more valuable.

If the Reds were on the verge of contending and Rolen were one of the last couple of needed pieces, I'd be all over this deal, but we're not, so I'd pass.

If they do deal, they better be sure about his health. Injuries happen and you can't always fault a team for one that makes a deal look bad (I don't fault the Reds for taking a chance on Griffey). In this case though, if they deal for Rolen and it goes pear-shaped they will deserve all the criticism headed their way.

KronoRed
07-29-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm sure the Padres know they suck and I bet they probably don't want to hear another teams manager say that.

I bet they find it hilarious, one suck team insulting the other.

Nice rant Dusty, as always I'm sure none of this is at all your responsibility.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2009, 11:43 PM
I'm not sure his players are the correct target. With the injuries, the team is woefully short in the talent department. He has two true starting players, maybe three, in his lineup. The starting pitchers are trying, it's just that Harang and Arroyo aren't that good at this point and Bailey and Cueto are kids.

The people he needs to talk to are Walt and Bob. I'm not sure anger at the players will get him very far.

Hmmm. Who are we missing?

1. Jay Bruce - .207 AVG, .283 OBP, .725 OPS, 41 RBI
2. R. Hernandez - .249 AVG, .330 OBP, .685 OPS, 36 RBI
3. C. Dickerson - .259 AVG, .355 OBP, .715 OPS, 13 RBI

Seems like the statistics of the 1962 Mets. No one is hitting. Bruce has been a bust (ducking, running, and heading for cover), Hernandez has been better than the last dozen catcher's we've had, but that's all, and Dickerson has 4th outfielder written all over him. Sorry, but the mess above cannot be an excuse.

Pitching?

1. Volquez - 49 IP, 34 Hits allowed, 4.35 ERA
2. Owens - 102 IP, 114Hits allowed, 5.35 ERA
3. Burton - 36 IP, 45 Hits allowed, 5.70 ERA
4. Lincoln - 23 IP, 29 Hits allowed, 8.22 ERA.

Not much to covet there either. Yes, fans, it's the players and the brain trust who put this pitiful team (Dusty's words) together. The future be darned, they need to get rid of each of these players (save Bruce, who may turn into something, and Volquez), but the trouble is no one wants them, just like we shouldn't have. And that includes Taveras, Gonzo, and many others.

LoganBuck
07-29-2009, 11:50 PM
Can the Reds fire him for conduct detrimental to a field manager?

savafan
07-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Can the Reds fire him for conduct detrimental to a field manager?

The Reds can fire him for any reason whatsoever. Ohio is an at will state.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2009, 11:54 PM
You know, I can actually see where you're going with this, but I fear that the current rosters a little too muddled to make it work. Rolen would be a great fit if we had a team filled with talented youth that we were just waiting to mature. His leadership, professionalism, and production would be just the ticket. However, in this case, we have such a mishmash at so many positions.

Exactly. But it would be a first step to showing they wanted to improve the club at a position that needs improving. But more moves are needed, as you know.


We need to divest ourselves of numerous overpaid/underproductive vets (Gonzo, Taveras, Arroyo, Harang?), need to actually identify and acquire targets from outside the organization to fill existing voids (SS, LF etc...) ,and then still need to sift through our arriving farmhands to sort contenders from pretenders (Heisey, Stubbs, Frazier, Alonso). There is so much to do, and we haven't even taken the first step in that direction yet. I worry that Rolen would be wasted on a team that's "neither here nor there" yet.

Rolen would not be wasted if, and it's a big if, the proper personnel were acquired at SS, LF, CF, and SP. Get rid of fool's gold like Taveras, Hairston, Nix, and Gomes so the feeble minded managers we seem to attract wouldn't consider them starters. They're not. Yes, do not renew Gonzo, DFA Taveras, trade Arroyo and even Harang -- all good ideas that need to be done, but get back people with promise instead of has beens or never wases. Leave that to Pittsburgh and not to the Pittsburgh of the South.

guttle11
07-29-2009, 11:55 PM
Has anyone ever seen Bob Castellini and Wade Phillips in the same room? I imagine Cast is in his office, pounding his fist on the table and muttering "It's time to win."

savafan
07-30-2009, 12:00 AM
Get rid of fool's gold like Taveras, Hairston, Nix, and Gomes so the feeble minded managers we seem to attract wouldn't consider them starters.

Aside from Taveras, the rest make pretty good bench players. The team does need a bench, but the players on said bench should be paid like bench players, and should only start in emergencies or to give a guy a day off.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2009, 12:01 AM
While he went overboard with criticizing the opponent at least it shows someone in the organization that knows just how pitiful this team is. It is better than an owner who thinks the team is magically going to turn it around and compete.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2009, 12:03 AM
Aside from Taveras, the rest make pretty good bench players. The team does need a bench, but the players on said bench should be paid like bench players, and should only start in emergencies or to give a guy a day off. I suppose that is what I meant, but a team of bench players is a losing team, as we have seen.

11larkin11
07-30-2009, 12:15 AM
Hmmm. Who are we missing?

1. Jay Bruce - .207 AVG, .283 OBP, .725 OPS, 41 RBI
2. R. Hernandez - .249 AVG, .330 OBP, .685 OPS, 36 RBI
3. C. Dickerson - .259 AVG, .355 OBP, .715 OPS, 13 RBI

Seems like the statistics of the 1962 Mets. No one is hitting. Bruce has been a bust (ducking, running, and heading for cover), Hernandez has been better than the last dozen catcher's we've had, but that's all, and Dickerson has 4th outfielder written all over him. Sorry, but the mess above cannot be an excuse.

Pitching?

1. Volquez - 49 IP, 34 Hits allowed, 4.35 ERA
2. Owens - 102 IP, 114Hits allowed, 5.35 ERA
3. Burton - 36 IP, 45 Hits allowed, 5.70 ERA
4. Lincoln - 23 IP, 29 Hits allowed, 8.22 ERA.

Not much to covet there either. Yes, fans, it's the players and the brain trust who put this pitiful team (Dusty's words) together. The future be darned, they need to get rid of each of these players (save Bruce, who may turn into something, and Volquez), but the trouble is no one wants them, just like we shouldn't have. And that includes Taveras, Gonzo, and many others.

Your ragging on a guys RBIs when hes hitting either 1st or 7th and hasn't been a full time save maybe a couple weeks. Look at that OBP! OBP is what you look for in a Leadoff hitter

WVRedsFan
07-30-2009, 01:05 AM
Your ragging on a guys RBIs when hes hitting either 1st or 7th and hasn't been a full time save maybe a couple weeks. Look at that OBP! OBP is what you look for in a Leadoff hitter True, but what are they doing with runners on base? That's RBI's. And how many times have or did they fail? Getting on base is one thing, but getting them in is another.

I mentioned Dickerson only in that even 1st or second place hitters have a chance to drive in runs when the OBP guys are at the bottom of the lineup as it is with Dusty managing. Too many times they fail and that is the problem with this club. Lack of hitting. Would you not agree?

schroomytunes
07-30-2009, 01:12 AM
Honestly, when you look at this team its pretty bad, Dusty is only saying what we as fans are thinking! MAybe this forces the higher ups to get off their arses and do something, and I'm not talking about moves like Balentin either, we may have to be creative but we have some guys that are coveted by other teams, ex: Weathers, Rhodes why not move them for whatever youngsters we can get!

LINEDRIVER
07-30-2009, 02:27 AM
It could be interesting to see how the Padres react on Thursday to Dusty saying publicly that they are not a good team. Perhaps San Diego will steal a few bases in the 8th inning with an 8 run lead?

Perhaps Dusty could of said, "They dont have any more talent than we do, but at least they try and have some fire in their bellies. That's more than I can say for my guys".

Ron Madden
07-30-2009, 04:12 AM
I don't even know how anybody can honestly blame Dusty for this garbage.


Dusty is the guy who puts two near automatic outs at the top of the line up every night. I'm sure Dusty has some input on the make up of the roster.

This is Dustys team every bit as much as it is Walts. It's Dustys job to make sure the team is ready to play and to put players in the best position to succeed. Dusty accepts the credit when his teams play well and takes none of the blame when they don't.

StillFunkyB
07-30-2009, 06:42 AM
“They’re not a good club,” Baker said. “They’re beating us like this. What does that make us?”


Lollygaggers?

HAHA, that's the first thing that I thought of as well! :)

Matt700wlw
07-30-2009, 07:31 AM
WWHAD?

What Would Hank Aaron Do?

traderumor
07-30-2009, 07:33 AM
I knew something was coming when they showed shots of Dusty late in the game on FSN. I wouldn't do a whole lot of analyzing his comments, unless you want one of your own personal fits of frustration analyzed for its rationality and content. What I just heard him saying is "this is unacceptable, something needs to change." That is a first step. Like others said, hopefully someone who can do something about it has a similar epiphany and gets off their dead butts in August.

BCubb2003
07-30-2009, 07:45 AM
I know he was speaking in frustration, but I wish the stated goal was better developed than just "getting after it."

Roy Tucker
07-30-2009, 07:56 AM
It's hard to motivate a team to do things that they really can't do. Like hit. And field. And now pitch. They just really don't have the horses.

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the coming weekend. The Reds will start to play better in about a week. Make a small run to get back to within like 5 games of 1st. The team will claim they're again a contender. All will be well again.

And then face-plant in August and auger in.

RFS62
07-30-2009, 07:58 AM
Groundhog Day

RANDY IN INDY
07-30-2009, 07:59 AM
Sounds plausible, Roy.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 08:01 AM
He should have had this rant in April.

hebroncougar
07-30-2009, 08:27 AM
I thought this was Dusty's team....

I said this about a month ago when he was griping about something else........it's HIS team. Last year about this time, he threw Krivsky under the bus, saying they weren't his players. Dusty's full of crap, and never takes responsibility. I'd fire the entire coaching staff, starting with the manager. Give me Duncan and Larussa. It's funny how guys like Todd Coffey turn fine once they leave here.

BCubb2003
07-30-2009, 08:31 AM
It's beginning to sound like the recliner days of Dave Miley, even though Dusty has more clout than those small-time company men had.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 08:37 AM
I thought this was Dusty's team....

He isn't making excuses. He knows that his rear is on the line and that's probably what is behind the explosion.

bucksfan2
07-30-2009, 08:50 AM
Yup. If only we tried harder we'd be a much better team. It's not a talent issue at all. When half of your lineup is sub-replacement quality, nights like these happen. I know you can't call guys out merely for not being talented, but that's the hand he's been dealt (and in part requested).

Did you watch the game last night? It was embarrassing to say the least. The hitters didn't go up there with a plan. The SD pitcher had a fastball and that was about it. He couldn't locate his breaking pitches but he continued to blow the fastball by the Reds. It looked like Homer when he doesn't have his secondary stuff. I was watching the game thinking to myself only Votto has a chance against this guy.

I realize that a ball traveling 95+ mph is fast, but I have seen other teams sit on fastball and now swing at anything else. Why couldn't the Reds hitters do that? The Reds players don't have a clue at the plate and that reflects not only upon the hitters but also the coaching staff. I can't even count how many times a hitter has gone up to the plate after a 4 or 5 pitch walk and swung at the first pitch way out of the strike zone. I can only think of 2 players on the team who change their hitting style as the count changes(Votto and Phillips).

The Reds haven't been sending out a very good team lately, but the fact of the matter is they still are major league players. It is embarrassing to watch the plate presence of the Reds. It is hard to watch some Reds with very long swings try to catch up to a straight 95 mph fastball. This isn't a very good offensive team, but fact of the matter is they don't help themselves out much by playing good baseball.

traderumor
07-30-2009, 08:50 AM
"This is Dusty's team" is pure speculation. How much input he has had in personnel decisions is based on reading between the lines logic and not clear evidence.

traderumor
07-30-2009, 08:54 AM
...and another thing...everyone gets that the heart of the matter is talent, and lack thereof, and even though Dusty is apparently the dumbest person on the planet, I'm sure he realizes that as well...so it is just possible that the blowup was aimed at the FO and not so much at lack of effort, if I may be afforded the same luxury of reading between the lines and speculating like everyone else.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 09:01 AM
...and another thing...everyone gets that the heart of the matter is talent, and lack thereof, and even though Dusty is apparently the dumbest person on the planet, I'm sure he realizes that as well...so it is just possible that the blowup was aimed at the FO and not so much at lack of effort, if I may be afforded the same luxury of reading between the lines and speculating like everyone else.

I would think that Dusty just thinks that the team can do better. I'm pretty sure that he realizes that the team doesn't have the talent to win it all, but he believes that they are better than this.

Dusty seems like the kind of guy who puts a lot of stock in busting your hump day in and day out. Think about when he called out Phillips and Dickerson a few weeks ago. He sees a lot more than we do and he probably realizes that the team is starting to mail it in, which bothers him b/c it is a huge reflection on him as well as it being just against his nature.

nate
07-30-2009, 09:01 AM
Why couldn't the Reds hitters do that?

Because, for the most part, they lack talent.

Not desire.

nate
07-30-2009, 09:01 AM
He isn't making excuses. He knows that his rear is on the line and that's probably what is behind the explosion.

I know my rear is usually what's behind the explosion.

nate
07-30-2009, 09:02 AM
That is a first step.

On the treadmill.

Kc61
07-30-2009, 09:03 AM
Hmmm. Who are we missing?

1. Jay Bruce - .207 AVG, .283 OBP, .725 OPS, 41 RBI
2. R. Hernandez - .249 AVG, .330 OBP, .685 OPS, 36 RBI
3. C. Dickerson - .259 AVG, .355 OBP, .715 OPS, 13 RBI

Seems like the statistics of the 1962 Mets. No one is hitting. Bruce has been a bust (ducking, running, and heading for cover), Hernandez has been better than the last dozen catcher's we've had, but that's all, and Dickerson has 4th outfielder written all over him. Sorry, but the mess above cannot be an excuse.

Pitching?

1. Volquez - 49 IP, 34 Hits allowed, 4.35 ERA
2. Owens - 102 IP, 114Hits allowed, 5.35 ERA
3. Burton - 36 IP, 45 Hits allowed, 5.70 ERA
4. Lincoln - 23 IP, 29 Hits allowed, 8.22 ERA.

Not much to covet there either. Yes, fans, it's the players and the brain trust who put this pitiful team (Dusty's words) together. The future be darned, they need to get rid of each of these players (save Bruce, who may turn into something, and Volquez), but the trouble is no one wants them, just like we shouldn't have. And that includes Taveras, Gonzo, and many others.

I disagree. You left out Hanigan. So both catchers and Bruce are out, Dickerson is out, Volquez is out. Those are meaningful losses on a team that is short on talent anyway. Dickerson's RBI total may be 13 but he does get on base reasonably well.

It's good for a manager to be feisty and all, but the best way to handle it is improving personnel and getting healthy.

And I don't think the team is pitiful. Healthy, it is a slightly below average team in need of offense. Injured, it is poor.

RANDY IN INDY
07-30-2009, 09:08 AM
I disagree. You left out Hanigan. So both catchers and Bruce are out, Dickerson is out, Volquez is out. Those are meaningful losses on a team that is short on talent anyway. Dickerson's RBI total may be 13 but he does get on base reasonably well.

It's good for a manager to be feisty and all, but the best way to handle it is improving personnel and getting healthy.

Agree.

puca
07-30-2009, 09:11 AM
Dusty needs to look in the mirror as well.

This team is not going to win mostly because it lacks talent, but it is not only the players that seemingly aren't putting forth an honest effort.

Simple things like continuing to bat the players least likely to get on base in front of your best hitter is not what I expect out of a manager.

bucksfan2
07-30-2009, 09:16 AM
Because, for the most part, they lack talent.

Not desire.

Thats my thing, it isn't necessarily talent. They have talent if they made it to the major leagues. I have seen pitchers freakin sit on fastballs, why can position players do that?

It really isn't an issue of being talented or not, it is an issue of understanding the game. Being patient at the plate isn't a talent thing. Going up to the plate with a game plan in mind isn't a talent thing. If you made it to the major leagues you should be able to hit a straight fastball.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 09:17 AM
Dusty will get the axe, the pitching staff will still suck. Repeat. It's the same thing every time. Nothing changes in Redsland. It's the manager. But then it turns out it isn't. But, wait, after losing a lot, then it somehow IS the manager's fault again. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 09:40 AM
I'd rather play with 24 than have Corky Miller up here.

I'd rather play with 23 than have Corky and The Virus on the roster.

Just sayin'...

traderumor
07-30-2009, 09:45 AM
Dusty will get the axe, the pitching staff will still suck. Repeat. It's the same thing every time. Nothing changes in Redsland. It's the manager. But then it turns out it isn't. But, wait, after losing a lot, then it somehow IS the manager's fault again. Repeat, repeat, repeat.It won't until they change their business model, my friend. We all see it, we know it, no one has been willing to uproot the rotten tree and plant a new one, so we keep on getting the same rotten fruit from a bad business model.

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 09:46 AM
Let's roll some dice ...

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/664/dustysdugoutdice2009.jpg

Jpup
07-30-2009, 09:48 AM
Dusty will get the axe, the pitching staff will still suck. Repeat. It's the same thing every time. Nothing changes in Redsland. It's the manager. But then it turns out it isn't. But, wait, after losing a lot, then it somehow IS the manager's fault again. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

You really think Bob is keeping Jocketty from making trades that do not increase payroll? He is given a budget and if he can't work within that budget, it's time for him to go home.

traderumor
07-30-2009, 09:48 AM
Let's roll some dice ...

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/664/dustysdugoutdice2009.jpgBoy, copying from Cubs fans? That might be more unacceptable than getting 1 hit by a Pads rookie ;)

nate
07-30-2009, 09:54 AM
Thats my thing, it isn't necessarily talent. They have talent if they made it to the major leagues. I have seen pitchers freakin sit on fastballs, why can position players do that?

It really isn't an issue of being talented or not, it is an issue of understanding the game. Being patient at the plate isn't a talent thing. Going up to the plate with a game plan in mind isn't a talent thing. If you made it to the major leagues you should be able to hit a straight fastball.

Maybe the plan they went to the plate with sucked?

Cooper
07-30-2009, 09:55 AM
Dusty is not authentic. He is cliche'. No one listens -it's Dusty doing the CYA dance.

Hoosier Red
07-30-2009, 10:04 AM
I find it humorous that people are worried about Dusty firing up San Diego. What's going to happen? Are they going to beat us worse than the 7-1 tail whooping we got before they were fired up?

traderumor
07-30-2009, 10:09 AM
I find it humorous that people are worried about Dusty firing up San Diego. What's going to happen? Are they going to beat us worse than the 7-1 tail whooping we got before they were fired up?They gonna be waitin' outside the clubhouse after the game for a rumble before they head on out of Dodge.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 10:10 AM
Maybe the plan they went to the plate with sucked?

Gotta be aggressive dude.

Always Red
07-30-2009, 10:15 AM
FWIW, I have been impressed with San Diego's pitching.

I realize they are pitching against the Reds, but still, they have some excellent young talent. Their end of game bullpen is also very good.

Again, I realize they are pitching against the Reds, and look better because the Reds hitting is so inept. But these guys are not a bunch of soft tossers. Latos was hitting 96-97 fairly regularly last night.

I can't blame Dusty for being frustrated. The smoke and mirrors of contention is fading, and the stark reality of ineptitude is in full view.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:17 AM
FWIW, I have been impressed with San Diego's pitching.

I realize they are pitching against the Reds, but still, they have some excellent young talent. Their end of game bullpen is also very good.

Again, I realize they are pitching against the Reds, and look better because the Reds hitting is so inept. But these guys are not a bunch of soft tossers. Latos was hitting 96-97 fairly regularly last night.

I can't blame Dusty for being frustrated. The smoke and mirrors of contention is fading, and the stark reality of ineptitude is in full view.

Yeah, Latos is a beast. Their lineup is eminently retireable, however; except by Reds' starters apparently.

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Boy, copying from Cubs fans? That might be more unacceptable than getting 1 hit by a Pads rookie ;)

Cubs fans are the riffraff of MLB fans, but occasionally they'll come up with a truly fantastic idea. Dusty's Dugout Dice falls into that category. It's been almost perfect too because of guys like Patterson, Bako, Willy T, etc.

Personally, I'm hoping Willy T plays every day the rest of the season because of the historical significance.

M2
07-30-2009, 10:28 AM
It's hard to motivate a team to do things that they really can't do. Like hit. And field. And now pitch. They just really don't have the horses.

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the coming weekend. The Reds will start to play better in about a week. Make a small run to get back to within like 5 games of 1st. The team will claim they're again a contender. All will be well again.

And then face-plant in August and auger in.

The Cardinals and Cubs are going to sprint to the finish. While the Reds surely will do better in various future weeks than this past one, I doubt it's going to recover enough ground to matter in the standings. If the current slide last another week it all but guarantees the Reds won't be spending much, if any, time with a record better than 10 games below .500.

Cyclone792
07-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Yeah, Latos is a beast. Their lineup is eminently retireable, however; except by Reds' starters apparently.

The Pads' lineup is a mirror image of the Reds' lineup. They've got one truly feared hitter (Votto for the Reds; Gonzalez for the Pads) surrounded by a bunch of garbage.

M2
07-30-2009, 10:29 AM
The Pads' lineup is a mirror image of the Reds' lineup. They've got one truly feared hitter (Votto for the Reds; Gonzalez for the Pads) surrounded by a bunch of garbage.

The Padres also have Everth Cabrera, who's the greatest thing ever.

cincrazy
07-30-2009, 10:57 AM
Maybe if Dusty took the time to stop putting Taveras and Gonzo in the first two spots in the batting order, this team would have more of a chance. It's amazing to hear him consistently whine about things when the man HAS CONTROL OVER SOME ASPECTS OF THE ORGANIZATION! You're the manager, you get paid to fix things, so fix things.

This team is going to be bad no matter what. But it doesn't have to be embarrassingly bad. I don't care if it's a directive from the top to play Taveras and Gonzo, if I'm Dusty I say, "I'm giving my team a chance to win, they're not playing, and if you don't like it, fire me."

IslandRed
07-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Yup. If only we tried harder we'd be a much better team. It's not a talent issue at all. When half of your lineup is sub-replacement quality, nights like these happen. I know you can't call guys out merely for not being talented, but that's the hand he's been dealt (and in part requested).

Obviously, talent is the team's primary current problem. But that doesn't mean effort/hustle/pride can't also be problems. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Or, put another way, lousy ballplayers sometimes need a butt-kicking too.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:53 AM
I haven't had too many complaints with Dusty this season up until the last few days. His handling of Arroyo/Harang the last two nights was very puzzling. Arroyo had thrown something like 112 pitches through six innings on Tuesday night and Dusty sent him back out for the 7th. Of course he surrendered a run and the Reds lost 3-2. Last night, Dusty sent Harang back out for the 8th inning after he had thrown 109 pitches through seven innings. Right on cue, the first two batters reached base and eventually came around to score thanks to a botched doubleplay. He did the same thing with Bailey on Monday night but thankfully Homer retired the first hitter and was then pulled.

Kc61
07-30-2009, 11:58 AM
I haven't had too many complaints with Dusty this season up until the last few days. His handling of Arroyo/Harang the last two nights was very puzzling. Arroyo had thrown something like 112 pitches through six innings on Tuesday night and Dusty sent him back out for the 7th. Of course he surrendered a run and the Reds lost 3-2. Last night, Dusty sent Harang back out for the 8th inning after he had thrown 109 pitches through seven innings. Right on cue, the first two batters reached base and eventually came around to score thanks to a botched doubleplay. He did the same thing with Bailey on Monday night but thankfully Homer retired the first hitter and was then pulled.

I think the Reds have been showcasing certain guys. Weathers during the LA series, for example. In Harang's case, having allowed 5 in the first, Dusty may have wanted to show that he can go deep into games -- didn't work. Similarly with Arroyo.

I felt he left Arroyo out too long the other night. The Harang game was a loss in any event. No way the Reds were coming back. It had no impact.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 12:26 PM
I haven't had too many complaints with Dusty this season up until the last few days. His handling of Arroyo/Harang the last two nights was very puzzling. Arroyo had thrown something like 112 pitches through six innings on Tuesday night and Dusty sent him back out for the 7th. Of course he surrendered a run and the Reds lost 3-2. Last night, Dusty sent Harang back out for the 8th inning after he had thrown 109 pitches through seven innings. Right on cue, the first two batters reached base and eventually came around to score thanks to a botched doubleplay. He did the same thing with Bailey on Monday night but thankfully Homer retired the first hitter and was then pulled.

I would guess that Cincy wanted to give the scouts something to see. Being able to see a guy get through 7 or 8 is something a contender would want. Showing Bronson as a 6 inning guy isn't too tempting.

EDIT: Wow, I didn't even see Kc61s post above.

WMR
07-30-2009, 12:29 PM
I think the Reds have been showcasing certain guys. Weathers during the LA series, for example. In Harang's case, having allowed 5 in the first, Dusty may have wanted to show that he can go deep into games -- didn't work. Similarly with Arroyo.

I felt he left Arroyo out too long the other night. The Harang game was a loss in any event. No way the Reds were coming back. It had no impact.

Except on Harang's arm. Of course, he's already likely ruined it for good.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:29 PM
Except on Harang's arm. Of course, he's already likely ruined it for good.

What a joke. What an underfunded bunch of garbage.

WMR
07-30-2009, 12:32 PM
What a joke. What an underfunded bunch of garbage.

I know what M2 thinks about the situation and I know what FCB thinks. And I also know whose opinion I trust. ;)

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:35 PM
I know what M2 thinks about the situation and I know what FCB thinks. And I also know whose opinion I trust. ;)

This says far more about you than it does either M2 or me.

WMR
07-30-2009, 12:37 PM
This says far more about you than it does either M2 or me.

:laugh:

M2
07-30-2009, 12:38 PM
I know what M2 thinks about the situation and I know what FCB thinks. And I also know whose opinion I trust. ;)

Hey now, for the record, I don't think anyone's armed has been ruined, but I do think that Harang and Arroyo could stand some gentler handling when they start to get off kilter. If you push them to the limit in every start then you're going to get diminishing returns.

WMR
07-30-2009, 12:41 PM
Hey now, for the record, I don't think anyone's armed has been ruined, but I do think that Harang and Arroyo could stand some gentler handling when they start to get off kilter. If you push them to the limit in every start then you're going to get diminishing returns.

I think Harang HAS been ruined by Dusty.

I agree with the rest of your post 100%. Running a guy like Harang out there for an 8th inning in a game that doesn't matter when he's already well over 100 pitches amounts to malpractice in my opinion.

Has he EVER given Harang the "benefit of the doubt" so to speak when it comes to taking him out early rather than leaving him in too long? Harang has been through the meat grinder and boy does it ever show.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
I agree with the rest of your post 100%. Running a guy like Harang out there for an 8th inning in a game that doesn't matter when he's already well over 100 pitches amounts to malpractice in my opinion.

Has he EVER given Harang the "benefit of the doubt" so to speak when it comes to taking him out early rather than leaving him in too long? Harang has been through the meat grinder and boy does it ever show.

Oh lord...why did you have to go and use that word?

Kc61
07-30-2009, 12:51 PM
I think Harang HAS been ruined by Dusty.

I agree with the rest of your post 100%. Running a guy like Harang out there for an 8th inning in a game that doesn't matter when he's already well over 100 pitches amounts to malpractice in my opinion.

Has he EVER given Harang the "benefit of the doubt" so to speak when it comes to taking him out early rather than leaving him in too long? Harang has been through the meat grinder and boy does it ever show.

This year, Harang and Arroyo are well down the list of high inning pitchers. Their innings this year are just not that high. In past years it has been high for both of them.

Raisor
07-30-2009, 01:59 PM
The Padres also have Everth Cabrera, who's the greatest thing ever.

Greatest thing EVERth

M2
07-30-2009, 02:37 PM
I find it humorous that people are worried about Dusty firing up San Diego. What's going to happen? Are they going to beat us worse than the 7-1 tail whooping we got before they were fired up?

Not for nothing, but it's looking exactly like that.

The Pads might have been content to split the series before Dusty dissed them. Instead I'm guessing Bud Black got to make a Vince Lombardi speech. If Dusty was looking to light a fire under a team, he lit it under the wrong one.

Hoosier Red
07-30-2009, 02:40 PM
Not for nothing, but it's looking exactly like that.

The Pads might have been content to split the series before Dusty dissed them. Instead I'm guessing Bud Black got to make a Vince Lombardi speech. If Dusty was looking to light a fire under a team, he lit it under the wrong one.

BFD.

If the Reds can't score more than one run, it doesn't matter if they lose 2-1, 3-1, or 22-1.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:41 PM
BFD.

If the Reds can't score more than one run, it doesn't matter if they lose 2-1, 3-1, or 22-1.

The Reds "aces" can't keep their offense out of the moon deck, either.

CTA513
07-30-2009, 02:42 PM
Reds cant hit, pitch or play defense.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Reds cant hit, pitch or play defense.

Worst team I've ever followed. I used not to think so, but this is the bottom. They could get worse, I don't know, but this is the worst team I've ever followed up to this point.

BRM
07-30-2009, 02:48 PM
Is Bob ready to sell now?

Kc61
07-30-2009, 02:50 PM
Worst team I've ever followed. I used not to think so, but this is the bottom. They could get worse, I don't know, but this is the worst team I've ever followed up to this point.

They were at .500 after 80 games. It's fallen apart in the last three weeks. During that time there have been injuries and a big decline in pitching.

Right this minute they are pretty bad, but at full strength they aren't that bad. They need a hitter, a pitcher, and a shortstop to be pretty good.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:51 PM
They were at .500 after 80 games. It's fallen apart in the last three weeks. During that time there have been injuries and a big decline in pitching.

Right this minute they are pretty bad, but at full strength they aren't that bad. They need a hitter, a pitcher, and a shortstop to be pretty good.

Even their healthy guys have been atrocious. Forget their replacements.

M2
07-30-2009, 03:03 PM
BFD.

If the Reds can't score more than one run, it doesn't matter if they lose 2-1, 3-1, or 22-1.

I agree at the level you're talking about it, but the manager needs to pull this team out of a nosedive and he all but assured it would continue for at least one more day.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Even their healthy guys have been atrocious. Forget their replacements.

Votto missed over a months worth of games. Hard to call his play atrocious.

Volquez was 3-1 with a 2.97 ERA in his last six starts before getting injured for the rest of the season. Not exactly atrocious.

EE was playing injured, and was atrocious at the beginning of the season, but if he were healthy, he would have been fine, as evident by his hitting now.

Bruce was not as good as expected, but was actually 1 win over replacement when his defense was factored in.

That makes up the bulk of the injuries suffered by the Reds this season. That's a lot of solid production to replace.

*BaseClogger*
07-30-2009, 03:47 PM
Bring in Dave Parker to be the hitting coach. Something tells me that would shake up the clubhouse.

I'd rather have a coach who had a better plate approach back in his playing days...

M2
07-30-2009, 06:30 PM
I'd rather have a coach who had a better plate approach back in his playing days...

You weren't around to see Dave Parker in action, but from 1975-79 he didn't need an approach. His approach was "I'm awesome so just throw me the damn ball and get ready for tonight's highlight reel."

And he had range and speed and the sickest arm in the universe. It was like watching Superman out there. He's on the short list of best ballplayers I've ever seen.

Force of nature was his approach.

After he bottomed out due to drug use he rebuilt himself. His plate approach doesn't look remarkably different in the stats columns, but Parker, like a lot of players from that era, was looking for something to hit and he made a nice career for himself even after he couldn't catch up to a quality heater. I don't know if he'd be the kind of coach who'd be stuck in the era that produced him or if he'd be the kind who can impart the pile of tricks he learned over the years. Could be either, neither or both.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 06:32 PM
I love Dave Parker. Grew up down the street from him. Great guy in person.

*BaseClogger*
08-01-2009, 02:37 PM
You weren't around to see Dave Parker in action, but from 1975-79 he didn't need an approach. His approach was "I'm awesome so just throw me the damn ball and get ready for tonight's highlight reel."

And he had range and speed and the sickest arm in the universe. It was like watching Superman out there. He's on the short list of best ballplayers I've ever seen.

Force of nature was his approach.

After he bottomed out due to drug use he rebuilt himself. His plate approach doesn't look remarkably different in the stats columns, but Parker, like a lot of players from that era, was looking for something to hit and he made a nice career for himself even after he couldn't catch up to a quality heater. I don't know if he'd be the kind of coach who'd be stuck in the era that produced him or if he'd be the kind who can impart the pile of tricks he learned over the years. Could be either, neither or both.

Hey thanks for the info. It was really interesting.

That said, if I were looking a hitting coach I don't think I would hire somebody like Bo Jackson who could get by with his own given abilities. I would want a smart ballplayer who could help share some of his own knowledge with players who perhaps have less talent than he had in his playing days.

And even if Parker could hit anything thrown at him, that's not going to work for most players on the Reds. Now like you said I'm not sure if his approach has matured since then, but that kind of mindset is something I'd keep away from young players.

I know Eric Davis already does a lot in the organization, but I think he'd be a great hitting coach too (well, he'd be a great everything except pitching coach)...

pedro
08-01-2009, 02:40 PM
Dave Parker was an absolute joy to watch play baseball, especially during the 1975-79 years that M2 mentioned. Just a monster AB and in the field.

RANDY IN INDY
08-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Those "Lumber Co." teams that Parker played on didn't see too many pitches that they didn't like. That was a hittin' team.

WVRedsFan
08-01-2009, 04:03 PM
Dave Parker was an absolute joy to watch play baseball, especially during the 1975-79 years that M2 mentioned. Just a monster AB and in the field.

Absolutely. Unlike today when you wonder if you'll score, you only wondered how many you would score. I miss Parker and those days. A lot.

BoydsOfSummer
08-01-2009, 09:40 PM
I can't wait until Dusty snaps his spindly legs on out of the Queen City, myself. I'm probably alone on that.

:cool:

redsfan4445
08-01-2009, 11:29 PM
I can't wait until Dusty snaps his spindly legs on out of the Queen City, myself. I'm probably alone on that.

:cool:

I wont miss him either. He can manage a all-star team that way they cant make him look bad and he cant screw it up.
He cant manage young guys.. He isn't tough enough, isnt respected and accepts failure and cant do a lineup.

NOTE TO DUSTY. You dont bat your two worse hitters 1 & 2 as they make the most outs!!

GAC
08-02-2009, 09:23 AM
then start by firing the MANAGER

Fixed that for ya. ;)

The reason I say that is for two reasons...

1) The hitting coach is not anyway responsible for the construction of the team. Knowing Baker, his philosophy/approach, and the type of player(s) he craves, I believe he did have influence in bringing WT here and resigning JHJ, because that is what he wanted.

Now would you want the task of trying to teach players like Taveras, and even free swinging Phillips, AGon, and maybe a few others, on how to hit? No, BP is not near as bad as Taveras; but that is not my point. How do you correct the plate approach (discipline) of players who may be "unteachable" in that aspect, or even veteran players, like an AGon, who have been set in their ways for years (that's simply how he was taught, and been doing it for years)? Old habits are hard to break.

I have no idea what Jacoby's hitting philosophy/approach is. But asking Jacoby to teach certain players on this team on how to hit, is like filling a classroom with a bunch of mental deficients, and trying to teach them quantum physics.

2) It's not the fault of the hitting coach when I watch this team on the base paths...getting picked off, making poor decisions, and acting like they don't know what's going on. IMO, that's the fault of a manager who believes the answer is speed and making things happen on those bases (translation: taking risks).

Baker gives up outs like he has an endless supply. He'll sacrifice two batters to move a runner from 1st to 3rd, and then hope the next guy will drive him in. Unfortunately, that "next" guy could turn out to be Taveras, Hairston, or Rosales. ;)

You begin by getting rid of a manager who, throughout the season, even when questioned about WT and Hairston's lack of performance and production in the #1 and #2 spots would respond... "They just need to string a few hits together and get going."

The guy hasn't got a clue.

membengal
08-04-2009, 08:41 AM
Stop him before he snaps again.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 09:42 AM
Dave Parker was an absolute joy to watch play baseball, especially during the 1975-79 years that M2 mentioned. Just a monster AB and in the field.


He and Seaver were two of my favorite non-Reds and I was so happy when both eventually became Reds.

Now Parker was hitting coach in StL for a year or so under LaRussa. So I'm guessing Walt has a pretty good idea of what he can and cannot contribute as a coach.

CrackerJack
08-04-2009, 10:36 AM
Votto missed over a months worth of games. Hard to call his play atrocious.

Volquez was 3-1 with a 2.97 ERA in his last six starts before getting injured for the rest of the season. Not exactly atrocious.

EE was playing injured, and was atrocious at the beginning of the season, but if he were healthy, he would have been fine, as evident by his hitting now.

Bruce was not as good as expected, but was actually 1 win over replacement when his defense was factored in.

That makes up the bulk of the injuries suffered by the Reds this season. That's a lot of solid production to replace.


Still seems like quite a stretch to me....Bruce over replacement? Votto's been back for some time now and they were still in contention when he re-joined...EE is still hitting something like .212 and can't field (and his obviously gone for good any ways)...Volquez wouldn't have made a major difference I'm guessing, because this team can't score any runs.

So essentially you're missing Votto and Bruce, and had Bruce the first half, I just don't think they would've made enough of a difference...maybe a bit closer to .500.

The entire OF on this team is gar-bage, as is the SS, you aren't going to win anything with that alone.