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flash
07-30-2009, 02:12 AM
Read John Fay's blog at Cincinnat.com. Dusty said the team's performance was pitiful and embarrassing.

I hate to say this, but I think it is of his own making. I don't even know where to start.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 02:20 AM
I'm sure he takes no blame. He did it in San Fran, he did it in Chicago and nows hes going to try to throw the team and everyone else under the bus.

Next thing out of his mouth is "This isnt my team" or something of the sorts like he said last year.

BigPoppa
07-30-2009, 02:28 AM
Dusty's right, dude. Pitiful. Bigtime. :rolleyes:



Is Dusty still here by the Dodgers' series ? end of August ?

mroby85
07-30-2009, 02:33 AM
I'm sure he takes no blame. He did it in San Fran, he did it in Chicago and nows hes going to try to throw the team and everyone else under the bus.

Next thing out of his mouth is "This isnt my team" or something of the sorts like he said last year.

It's NOT his fault!! you can't be serious? I don't think Chuck Norris could win with this team, lol. Seriously though, this team is pathetic, there is no way you can format this roster in a way it would be a successful team. You can thank the front office for this garbage product on the field, not Dusty Baker. He hasn't been costing them games, the outmatched levels of talent they've been playing against. If anyone thinks the losing is Dusty's fault, they either just want him to be the scapegoat, or truly believe it, and have a lack of baseball intelligence. You realize this team probably has 2 offensive players that would start on MLB teams outside of this city? and he's expected to win with that? give me a break!

GIDP
07-30-2009, 02:46 AM
Dusty is not a solution thats all I'm saying. He has no understanding of simple baseball concepts, and has he takes weeks to see what the average fan sees when it comes to players struggling or not. Not to mention if you ask him something about a player he never has a legit idea what hes talking about.

Lets not forget just last year he said this

"This guy is tough on lefties," Baker said. "[Adam] Dunn has been pretty good [against Maholm] and Griff hasn't. I'm just trying to find a way to get some right-handers in there. Griff will be back in there tomorrow. The guy tomorrow, [Zach Duke], has been tough on Dunn. Jerry [Hairston] and [Jeff] Keppinger are just getting their strokes together, and [so is] Edwin [Encarnacion]"

may I remind you this is what the numbers really were at the time.

Vs. Maholm:
Dunn 3-for-22 with zero extra base hits and 9 strike outs
Griffey 5-for-18 with 1 home run

Vs. Duke:
Dunn 5-for-9
Griffey 1-for-6

Yes this guy is a terrible manager and a big time idiot. No excuses for it.

BigPoppa
07-30-2009, 02:53 AM
Dusty is not a solution thats all I'm saying. He has no understanding of simple baseball concepts, and has he takes weeks to see what the average fan sees when it comes to players struggling or not. Not to mention if you ask him something about a player he never has a legit idea what hes talking about.

Lets not forget just last year he said this

"This guy is tough on lefties," Baker said. "[Adam] Dunn has been pretty good [against Maholm] and Griff hasn't. I'm just trying to find a way to get some right-handers in there. Griff will be back in there tomorrow. The guy tomorrow, [Zach Duke], has been tough on Dunn. Jerry [Hairston] and [Jeff] Keppinger are just getting their strokes together, and [so is] Edwin [Encarnacion]"

may I remind you this is what the numbers really were at the time.

Vs. Maholm:
Dunn 3-for-22 with zero extra base hits and 9 strike outs
Griffey 5-for-18 with 1 home run

Vs. Duke:
Dunn 5-for-9
Griffey 1-for-6

Yes this guy is a terrible manager and a big time idiot. No excuses for it.


You said "bigtime". Dusty says "bigtime" too. A lot. Dude.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 02:56 AM
You said "bigtime". Dusty says "bigtime" too. A lot. Dude.

:laugh:

texasdave
07-30-2009, 03:03 AM
Dusty does not have the horses, to be sure, but that does not absolve him.

Three glaring examples of mismanagement tonight:

1)Putting Taveras in the lead off position. If anyone thinks that WT is the best CFer in the system fine (he's not). But to continue to slot him in the 1-hole with his .279 OBP is criminal. He bats Taveras one and (normally) Gonzalez two and can't figure out why the team doesn't score more (i.e. looks lackluster). A .279 OBP followed up by a .250 OBP. And they get the most at-bats. Tonight it was .279 OBP followed up by .304 OBP. Laughable at best. Strike one.
2)He has Harang sacrifice in the sixth inning. Is Baker nuts? This team has had all of two baserunners to this point in the game, is trailing by four runs, has Willy Taveras sitting on-deck and Dusty is giving up outs. Inexcusable. Strike Two.
3)He trots Harang out there to start the 8th inning when Aaron is already sitting at 110 pitches. Say What? This team is out of it. It has no shot of getting back back into contention. It is trailing by four runs in a meaningless game. And yet Dusty sends a pitcher out to start an inning with 110 pitches. Brutal. He did the very same thing last night with Arroyo. Bronson starts the 7th inning with a pitch count of 112. At least that game was tied. But what are the Reds playing for here? As you said this team is woefully out-talented and Dusty is out there riding those starters as long and as hard as he can. Indefensible.
Strike Three.

Sorry, but Dusty needs to be out of here. Talent (or lack thereof) notwithstanding.

Captain Hook
07-30-2009, 03:10 AM
I said it in another post.If I were coach and I really felt that I had to bat the worst two hitters in all of baseball 1 and 2 I would just fire myself.

Maybe its not his fault but he did just that when he had other options.Dusty just has no clue.He can't motivate,he can't inspire and he sure can't coach.All he can do is stay on the players good side and when that is lost its time for him to go.

Actually I'll take that back.Baker should just be told that he is fired now but can stay on as intern manger until the Bats season is over so Sweet can finish what he started with the Bats.Then just fire him again when the time comes.Baker actually deserves to be fired twice and hey man, he would be the first dude to have ever accomplished that feat.What a way to end a coaching career.

40YrRedsFan
07-30-2009, 03:23 AM
The makeup of this team is not Dusty's fault, but I do question some of his moves. Just tonight by having Harang stay in and bunt in the 6th inning was
ridiculous. Where was he going with that. We were down by 4 with only 12 outs left, and he wastes an out. IMO not too good of a move.

40YrRedsFan
07-30-2009, 03:30 AM
I think this team is in such bad shape mentally, that Dusty and the coaches will not be able to motivate this team at all. This is the lowest I have seen this team in many many years. Except for a few players, the majority of this team, including the manager and coaches, need to be fired, traded, released, or what have you. This is not going to be a quick fix. We could be looking at a few years.

DTCromer
07-30-2009, 07:02 AM
I'm sure he takes no blame. He did it in San Fran, he did it in Chicago and nows hes going to try to throw the team and everyone else under the bus.

Next thing out of his mouth is "This isnt my team" or something of the sorts like he said last year.

In his defense, Chicago has always been a mess of a roster. No one is going to win there. . . not even Lou.

BLEEDS
07-30-2009, 09:17 AM
Next thing out of his mouth is "This isnt my team" or something of the sorts like he said last year.


The makeup of this team is not Dusty's fault,

If acquiring Wily Taveras and continually batting him leadoff doesn't prove to you the Duster's influence on this team, I don't know what does.

This IS Dusty's team, through and through.
Taveras, JHJ/Gonzalez/Janish/SS de jour de poo batting 2nd.

Nobody in their right mind would do that. IT IS Dusty's team.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Carin4Narron
07-30-2009, 10:00 AM
resign Dusty, save your pride and your career

bounty37h
07-30-2009, 10:06 AM
Dusty's right, dude. Pitiful. Bigtime. :rolleyes:



Is Dusty still here by the Dodgers' series ? end of August ?

Sure he is, he's paid for, the seasons pretty much in the books, and none of them seem to care.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 10:54 AM
In his defense, Chicago has always been a mess of a roster. No one is going to win there. . . not even Lou.

my complaints have nothing to do with his roster. Hed be a bad manager if he had a little league team or the yankees.

mroby85
07-30-2009, 12:02 PM
my complaints have nothing to do with his roster. Hed be a bad manager if he had a little league team or the yankees.

My only point is after nearly 15 years of not making the playoffs, it hasn't been the manager every year. At some point you have to point the finger at the front office/players. Managers can only do so much, and Dusty has proven he's capable of winning if he's given the tools, this year he was certainly given the tools to say the least, but not in the good kind of way.

FlyerFanatic
07-30-2009, 12:18 PM
My only point is after nearly 15 years of not making the playoffs, it hasn't been the manager every year. At some point you have to point the finger at the front office/players. Managers can only do so much, and Dusty has proven he's capable of winning if he's given the tools, this year he was certainly given the tools to say the least, but not in the good kind of way.

i think theres no question the MLB is a players league. the same can be said for all professional sports. clearly this team is playing a bunch of bench players as starters. my problem, and most dusty dislikers would agree, dusty isnt even playing the right players out of the players hes been given to work with. i know its been harped on, but the whole patterson leading off last year, and now taveras leading off this year. these arent things that are rare occurrences, dusty puts taveras at the top of the lineup card most every game.

the argument then a lot of times turns to, well who do you put in for so and so? well at this point, its time to bring up the young guns, i dont care if taveras is being paid 3 mill, he is a terrible lead off hitter, either move his butt down to the bottom of the order and see if he can be productive, if not, bench him bring up stubbs, heisey, etc.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 12:21 PM
My only point is after nearly 15 years of not making the playoffs, it hasn't been the manager every year. At some point you have to point the finger at the front office/players. Managers can only do so much, and Dusty has proven he's capable of winning if he's given the tools, this year he was certainly given the tools to say the least, but not in the good kind of way.

The teams Dusty won with you would be hard pressed to find a manager that couldnt have won with those teams. He is pulled towards the bad players and make sure they get more chances than they deserve. He will say one thing like Gonzales has great D and stick with him, but when he gets hurt he refuses to play another guy with great D because the bat. Its things like this that is just confusing. The sticking of Taveras in the 1 spot and dumping Dickerson in the 8th spot. The playing of Hernandez with a messed up knee for a month while Hanigan gets a spot start once every other week. The refusal to hit Hanigan higher than 7th. The batting of Edwin no higher than 5th. The batting of Dunn in the 7th and 8th spot. The playing of Gomes in RF. The habits of making sure 2 terrible players get the most AB he can get. He thinks speed means something other than being a fast runner. The griping at fans for questioning why hes been playing a guy who doesnt hit for a month instead of a guy whos hit 3 home runs in 4 starts. The over extending of starters for no reason, like last night, and arroyo the night before.

I see nothing that he does that makes me think he personally has improved the team. He fails at noticing simple things, and is stubborn. It makes me question what he does do, and what he does do well. I really just dont see anything. I think he might manage a club house decently, but even that I have questions on.

CySeymour
07-30-2009, 12:52 PM
The teams Dusty won with you would be hard pressed to find a manager that couldnt have won with those teams. He is pulled towards the bad players and make sure they get more chances than they deserve. He will say one thing like Gonzales has great D and stick with him, but when he gets hurt he refuses to play another guy with great D because the bat. Its things like this that is just confusing. The sticking of Taveras in the 1 spot and dumping Dickerson in the 8th spot. The playing of Hernandez with a messed up knee for a month while Hanigan gets a spot start once every other week. The refusal to hit Hanigan higher than 7th. The batting of Edwin no higher than 5th. The batting of Dunn in the 7th and 8th spot. The playing of Gomes in RF. The habits of making sure 2 terrible players get the most AB he can get. He thinks speed means something other than being a fast runner. The griping at fans for questioning why hes been playing a guy who doesnt hit for a month instead of a guy whos hit 3 home runs in 4 starts. The over extending of starters for no reason, like last night, and arroyo the night before.

I see nothing that he does that makes me think he personally has improved the team. He fails at noticing simple things, and is stubborn. It makes me question what he does do, and what he does do well. I really just dont see anything. I think he might manage a club house decently, but even that I have questions on.

Buddy, I couldn't have crafted things any better....this is the heart of the problem with Dusty.

PhillipsHead
07-30-2009, 01:35 PM
NOT HIS FAULT: The fact that Jocketty doesn't have a good enough product for him to arrange and win with (Taveras, Hairston, Nix, etc.)

HIS FAULT: He's terrible at game pitching management, in other words, constantly stringing out our starters past 110 pitches and not knowing when a pitcher is done.

Either way, at 10 games under, it is notw obvious, this team was not capable of winning...

texasdave
07-30-2009, 02:13 PM
HIS FAULT: Line up construction.

mroby85
07-30-2009, 04:07 PM
HIS FAULT: Line up construction.

It would be very hard to construct a lineup that gets about 5 hits a game in a way that you would win. Especially when at least 2-3 of those hits usually come from your 3-4 hitters.

GIDP
07-30-2009, 04:09 PM
It would be very hard to construct a lineup that gets about 5 hits a game in a way that you would win. Especially when at least 2-3 of those hits usually come from your 3-4 hitters.

Well if the team sucks the manager clearly cant. If the team is good its obvious the manager is good. Isnt that how it works?

texasdave
07-30-2009, 04:19 PM
It would be very hard to construct a lineup that gets about 5 hits a game in a way that you would win. Especially when at least 2-3 of those hits usually come from your 3-4 hitters.

Yes it would. But Dusty still failed the test. The players aren't very good. No one is saying they are. And neither is Dusty's managerial abilities. Does this make any sense? We don't have many good players so just let them bat in any old order. No, it doesn't.

WeLoveLarkin!!!
07-30-2009, 06:47 PM
as soon as we hired dusty baker, i screamed at the television and actually started to punch things. but hey guys, we're reds fans, we should already know not to have any confidence in the front office decisions. it's truly embarrassing that we continue to not learn from our mistakes in the past. i have nothing against baker as a human, but as a ball manager he has proven he does not belong there.

CesarGeronimo
07-30-2009, 06:51 PM
NOT HIS FAULT: The fact that Jocketty doesn't have a good enough product for him to arrange and win with (Taveras, Hairston, Nix, etc.)



I violently disagree with the idea that Dusty doesn't play a major role in the choice of players that the Reds add to the team. You're ignoring of missing what Dusty says about the types of players he needs on the team needs and then what he says about those types of players and how he uses them once they are on the team. The Taveras, Hairston types of players are his fault, and he is also the one - as he has discussed lately - who wants to keep running Taveras, Hairston and Nix out there rather than promoting somebody like Heisey, who he says wouldn't get enough playing time so it's better to keep him in Louisville.

WeLoveLarkin!!!
07-30-2009, 06:56 PM
I violently disagree with the idea that Dusty doesn't play a major role in the choice of players that the Reds add to the team. You're ignoring of missing what Dusty says about the types of players he needs on the team needs and then what he says about those types of players and how he uses them once they are on the team. The Taveras, Hairston types of players are his fault, and he is also the one - as he has discussed lately - who wants to keep running Taveras, Hairston and Nix out there rather than promoting somebody like Heisey, who he says wouldn't get enough playing time so it's better to keep him in Louisville.

couldn't agree more. if it wasn't dusty's fault, the cubs the next year wouldn't have made the playoffs with pinella. That is probably the best example to show how much a manager is at fault. He had a great team with the cubs and he did nothing with it.

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 12:40 AM
my complaints have nothing to do with his roster. Hed be a bad manager if he had a little league team or the yankees.

And this team would still be 10 games under .500.

A manager isn't the difference between winning a WS and not making the playoffs.

Zimmers
07-31-2009, 12:57 AM
I am not a Dusty Hater but man some of the lineups and moves that have been made are damn sure questionable. WT and Agon 1 &2?? Laughable.:eek: Then theres the SP to be kept on the mound one to many innings?:thumbdown I don't understand the logic. Something needs to change. Fire Jacoby, Pole, Berry, Baker, I don't really care but this team needs a jumpstart as it is as cold as a witches tittie atm! :(

Captain Hook
07-31-2009, 01:17 AM
And this team would still be 10 games under .500.

A manager isn't the difference between winning a WS and not making the playoffs.

No but its the difference between the Reds and Cards minus the recent moves the Cards have made.

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 09:16 AM
No but its the difference between the Reds and Cards minus the recent moves the Cards have made.

If we were a serious contender, I don't see us just sitting on our hands this year.

improbus
07-31-2009, 09:42 AM
I've tried hard not to pile on Dusty over the years because blaming the manager is the easiest thing to do in sports, but I think it's time. We all know about the WT/CP saga's of ineptitude. But, he has single-handedly destroyed Aaron Harang who hasn't been the same since that 18 inning Padres disaster last season.

Dusty isn't responsible for the subpar play of the Reds this year. But, he is not the right manager for this team.