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Benihana
07-30-2009, 10:15 AM
Thought it would be a good idea to start a new trade deadline thread for today's rumors.

Here's a couple Reds related items:


Elliott adds that the Reds "met last night to decide to come up with a package to land third baseman Scott Rolen."


Two players are on the Cubs' radar: Mark Teahen of the Royals and Jeremy Hermida of the Marlins. The Royals are looking for a center fielder in return, however. Teahen has $1.37MM left on his contract. Hermida has $847K remaining. Both players can be under team control through 2011.

I would offer the Royals Willy Taveras and cash for Mark Teahen. If they didn't want Taveras, I'd send them Stubbs for Teahen and a prospect. Teahen is cheap and would give the Reds flexibility at LF and 3B. The Reds have way too many CFers. It's not going to set the world on fire but I think there is a fit here.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:16 AM
Thought it would be a good idea to start a new trade deadline thread for today's rumors.

Here's a couple Reds related items:





I would offer the Royals Willy Taveras and cash for Mark Teahen. If they didn't want Taveras, I'd send them Stubbs for Teahen and a prospect. Teahen is cheap and would give the Reds flexibility at LF and 3B. The Reds have way too many CFers. It's not going to set the world on fire but I think there is a fit here.

How about Dickerson for Teahan? I don't think anyone wants Willy.

BRM
07-30-2009, 10:18 AM
How about Dickerson for Teahan? I don't think anyone wants Willy.

Dusty and Walt apparently do.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:19 AM
Dusty and Walt apparently do.

I should have said anyone "else."

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 10:20 AM
I should have said anyone "else."

Or anybody in their right mind.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 10:20 AM
How about Dickerson for Teahan? I don't think anyone wants Willy.

I think I might like Dickerson more than Stubbs. I'd like to move Stubbs before he's exposed and loses his trade value.

BRM
07-30-2009, 10:22 AM
I thought Toronto was only interested in trading Rolen if they could deal Halladay first? Seems like I read that a couple of days ago somewhere.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 10:23 AM
CDick can't be traded--he's on the dl, he could however be a PTBNL.

The Yankees are interested in a CF (MLBtraderumors.com said they are looking at CPatt (is he dating Steinbrenner's daughter)). I'd offer them Willie Taveras for a bag of balls or a Yankees hat.

pahster
07-30-2009, 10:26 AM
Or anybody in their right mind.

The Royals don't have a mind, so no problem there.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Teahen is EE. Not enough glove for 3B, not enough bat for LF.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:30 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

Bruce? not in a million years. :help: Alonso yeah, but not Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, or Joey Votto. They can have anyone else.

BRM
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

JP would probably want Cueto as well.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

I like the initial theory, but I can't imagine JP Riccardi could tell the media he just traded Roy Halladay for Josh Roenicke and two PTBNLs.

I'd offer EE, Alonso, Stubbs, and Wood (with the injured Canadians Lotzkar and/or Hildenbrandt as PTBNLs) for Halladay and Rolen.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Bruce? not in a million years. :help: Alonso yeah, but not Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, or Joey Votto. They can have anyone else.

Yeah, Bruce. Cueto. Whoever.

pahster
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

Leake hasn't even signed yet; he can't be traded.

Hoosier Red
07-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

Leake would have to be a PTBNL as well wouldn't he? I'm sure the Toronto GM would love to announce to his fans, we just traded the best pitcher in franchise history for 2 PTBNL and a rookie reliever. I like the thinking though.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:33 AM
Leake would have to be a PTBNL as well wouldn't he? I'm sure the Toronto GM would love to announce to his fans, we just traded the best pitcher in franchise history for 2 PTBNL and a rookie reliever. I like the thinking though.

Okay, change Leake to Cueto, Bruce, and Roenicke.

Whatever you do, get major league talent on the major league roster. Sweat the small matters later.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:34 AM
Okay, change Leake to Cueto, Bruce, and Roenicke.

You've lost your mind. Why not just throw in Votto too?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:34 AM
You've lost your mind. Why not just throw in Votto too?

Why? Votto's a major league talent. In my trade, the only MLB talent going back to Toronto is Cueto.

Anyway, Ricciardi's looking for pitching, not hitting necessarily.

RANDY IN INDY
07-30-2009, 10:35 AM
I think I might like Dickerson more than Stubbs. I'd like to move Stubbs before he's exposed and loses his trade value.

Agree on Stubbs. I still really like Dickerson. He has a lot of upside.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 10:35 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.

We can't trade Leake, we just drafted him.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 10:36 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

Bruce (PTBNL), Leake, Roenicke for Halladay. Break the cycle.
I don't think Leake can even be traded since he hasn't been signed. And when he IS signed I think he still has to remain with us for awhile. But I wouldn't do that deal anyway.

Also, Taveras for Teahen is fine with me but not Dickerson or Stubbs. Teahen isn't bad but it seems like you're overrating him a little if you consider dealing one of those two for him.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 10:37 AM
Why? Votto's a major league talent. In my trade, the only MLB talent going back to Toronto is Cueto.

Anyway, Ricciardi's looking for pitching, not hitting necessarily.

Wouldn't you want to build around Cueto and Halladay?

Is there another arm you'd send back instead of Cueto?

Benihana
07-30-2009, 10:38 AM
Okay, change Leake to Cueto, Bruce, and Roenicke.

Whatever you do, get major league talent on the major league roster. Sweat the small matters later.

Listen, I'm just as frustrated as you or anybody else on this forum with the lack of direction this team has demonstrated. But your ranting is getting pretty ridiculous.

Proposing a trade that includes Johnny Cueto and Jay Bruce for a single player is simply preposterous, as are your claims over the last 24 hours that "there is not a single major league talent on the 25-man roster."

Obviously, we are all frustrated. Please try to tone it down a little, and stay within realistic parameters.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 10:39 AM
You've lost your mind. Why not just throw in Votto too?

Remember, FCB is convinced that Bruce is the next Brandon Larson, and that every pitcher wearing a Reds uniform doesn't have the talent to pitch in AAA, let alone the majors.

It's not really his fault, he's from Philly. ;)

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Wouldn't you want to build around Cueto and Halladay?

Is there another arm you'd send back instead of Cueto?

The Reds don't have another major league arm to send to the Jays. If he doesn't mind Volquez instead of Cueto. Whatever. The details are academic. Getting the ace is step number one to building anything.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Why? Votto's a major league talent. In my trade, the only MLB talent going back to Toronto is Cueto.

Bruce is not a major league talent? He'll be fine. Roy Halladay isn't going to come to Cincinnati with 1 year left on a deal without a chance to win. The Reds have no chance to win in 2010 with or without Roy Hallady. Jay Bruce is going to be a monster some day soon.

Don't you believe that at 22, it's a little early to be giving up on Bruce? He was the minor league player of the year last year and he has show flashes of brilliance already. Yes he has struggled this year, but he would be the first guy to do that and turn into a MVP type player.

I'm all for Roy Halladay if he were to sign an extension, but he has already said that he is not going to do that. What's the point of getting him for 1 year?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:40 AM
Listen, I'm just as frustrated as you or anybody else on this forum with the lack of direction this team has demonstrated. But your ranting is getting pretty ridiculous.

Proposing a trade that includes Johnny Cueto and Jay Bruce for a single player is simply preposterous, as are your claims over the last 24 hours that "there is not a single major league talent on the 25-man roster."

Obviously, we are all frustrated. Please try to tone it down a little, and stay within realistic parameters.

What are the alternatives if the Reds want Halladay? What do you think Ricciardi would settle for?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Bruce is not a major league talent? He'll be fine. Roy Halladay isn't going to come to Cincinnati with 1 year left on a deal without a chance to win. The Reds have no chance to win in 2010 with or without Roy Hallady. Jay Bruce is going to be a monster some day soon.

Don't you believe that at 22, it's a little early to be giving up on Bruce? He was the minor league player of the year last year and he has show flashes of brilliance already. Yes he has struggled this year, but he would be the first guy to do that and turn into a MVP type player.

I'm all for Roy Halladay if he were to sign an extension, but he has already said that he is not going to do that. What's the point of getting him for 1 year?

Who says I'm giving up on Bruce? I'd say using him to land an ace is paying him a pretty big compliment. Take Bruce out of that deal if you'd like. Who would you replace him with?

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:42 AM
What are the alternatives if the Reds want Halladay? What do you think Ricciardi would settle for?

You didn't ask me, but I don't think the Reds can get him period. Halladay has to approve it. Name one reason he would come to the Reds, other than to get out of Canada. If it's money, the Reds ain't gonna spend it.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 10:42 AM
What are the alternatives if the Reds want Halladay? What do you think Ricciardi would settle for?

I would guess that he could be had for Alonso, Stewart, and another pitching prospect (Wood or Sulbaran?) That would jive with what their demands have been.

Whether or not Halladay would accept a deal here is obviously another story. One thing is for sure- he definitely would veto a deal if Bruce and Cueto were gone.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:43 AM
I would guess that he could be had for Alonso, Stewart, and a lesser prospect (Sulbaran?) That would jive with what their demands have been.

Supposedly, Ricciardi has been demanding MLB pitchers. He may come down off that demand or he may decide to keep him.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2009, 10:44 AM
The Reds don't have another major league arm to send to the Jays. If he doesn't mind Volquez instead of Cueto. Whatever. The details are academic. Getting the ace is step number one to building anything.

When your talking about trading two-three of your best 4 assets, it's a joke to pretend the details are academic.

You just tore apart the offers that the Blue Jays have been ASKING for Halladay. There's zero reason to start that high, pretend that Cueto/Volquez are after thoughts, when your likely going to end up overpaying. Get him on our terms, and start pairing Halladay with that young talent.... not replacing it, that defeats the whole purpose.

HeatherC1212
07-30-2009, 10:44 AM
Hmmm, I thought it was a little early for anyone to be posting after drinking heavily but apparently it's not today, LOL ;)

I'm all for making a trade in order to help the club but not for giving up anyone in the core group to do it (aka, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Bailey).

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:45 AM
Who says I'm giving up on Bruce? I'd say using him to land an ace is paying him a pretty big compliment. Take Bruce out of that deal if you'd like. Who would you replace him with?

I would give them any 3 guys other than Bruce, Votto, or Cueto. They can have anyone else. The only thing is that the Reds would be wasting their time if he doesn't sign, at least, a 3 year deal. I think we can quit dreaming of Halladay because it isn't happening.

chicoruiz
07-30-2009, 10:45 AM
I think you have to remember in all this that players are more than just collections of stats, and that trading Bruce might very possibly have a negative impact on Votto, his best friend. I'm not saying that we need to keep Bruce around forever as a .205 hitter just to be Votto's sidekick; I'm just saying that there are other factors to consider.

To me, the big chip the Reds have to cash in is Alonso, and I'm not sure now is the time to do it.

redsmetz
07-30-2009, 10:45 AM
You've lost your mind. Why not just throw in Votto too?

FCB is firm in his belief that our pitching is nothing but dreck. I would disagree, but we're back to telling potential suitors to back the truck up again. I disagree that our pitching is dreck. It can be improved, and no question Halladay would do that, but selling off our plum players is a recipe for going backwards.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 10:47 AM
Why do I get the feeling that if FCB had his way he'd make trades so we'd end up with Halladay, one more good pitcher, Votto, and a bunch of :barf:

Jpup
07-30-2009, 10:48 AM
FCB is firm in his belief that our pitching is nothing but dreck. I would disagree, but we're back to telling potential suitors to back the truck up again. I disagree that our pitching is dreck. It can be improved, and no question Halladay would do that, but selling off our plum players is a recipe for going backwards.

I agree with him that most of it is, but you don't give up your 3 best players for 1 guy that is on a 1 year deal. I believe the Reds minor league depth is a mirage and the rotation is pretty horrible, but Cueto is almost untouchable for me. I would trade him, but not in a deal like this.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Why do I get the feeling that if FCB had his way he'd make trades so we'd end up with Halladay, one more good pitcher, Votto, and a bunch of :barf:

You'd honestly feel worse about a starting staff led by Halladay and Volquez + dreck than you do about this current pile of stool?

jojo
07-30-2009, 10:51 AM
I would offer the Royals Willy Taveras and cash for Mark Teahen. If they didn't want Taveras, I'd send them Stubbs for Teahen and a prospect. Teahen is cheap and would give the Reds flexibility at LF and 3B. The Reds have way too many CFers. It's not going to set the world on fire but I think there is a fit here.

I would dress every bit of fodder in the organisation in tuxedos and offer them to KC. With Dayton Moore, it's a better bet than "the worst he can say is no" caveat that usually accompanies trade suggestions from fans.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 10:53 AM
What are the alternatives if the Reds want Halladay? What do you think Ricciardi would settle for?

The Reds do not need Halladay to compete. He would be a great addition, but not at the cost of gutting the team.

I'm sorry, but your notion that you need a true TOR guy to compete is utter nonsense, and not backed up by any facts.

The Dodgers, Phillies, Marlins, Rockies, Angels, Rangers, Rays, Twins, Brewers, and White Sox are all contending this season, and none of them have a true TOR guy who is significantly better than either Cueto or Volquez.

And look what having a TOR guys has done for the Jay's and the Mets.

TOR pitchers are great to have, but they aren't necessary to make the Playoffs, and don't guarantee it either.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 10:54 AM
Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, and Roenicke for Halladay is easily the worst trade proposal I have ever read on the internet. Giving up on Jay Bruce at 22 is amazing. It really is.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 10:55 AM
Trading for Halladay and giving up a number of our good players doesn't make us better, just different.

And when Halladay likely leaves after 2010 we are in even worse shape.

Making a few trades of any proportions isn't going to make us a contender.

We really have no choice but to wait and see if some of our prospects/young players develop. If so, then a Halladay type trade might make sense.

But today, it's just going to make us so much worse down the road.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 10:56 AM
You'd honestly feel worse about a starting staff led by Halladay and Volquez + dreck than you do about this current pile of stool?
If you wanted to tear apart the team and trade some really good players for 1 good player that would make so much money that we wouldn't have much flexibility than yeah I'd feel worse about that.

You, and a few others, think that the rotation can't be any good, that Bruce stinks, that the minors stinks, etc etc etc ..... but I'd like to think that the majority just don't agree.

jojo
07-30-2009, 10:57 AM
The Ms essentially traded Lou to the Rays for Randy Winn. I wonder if the Reds could trade Dusty for a similar type player.... :cool:

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:02 AM
The Reds do not need Halladay to compete. He would be a great addition, but not at the cost of gutting the team.

I'm sorry, but your notion that you need a true TOR guy to compete is utter nonsense, and not backed up by any facts.

The Dodgers, Phillies, Marlins, Rockies, Angels, Rangers, Rays, Twins, Brewers, and White Sox are all contending this season, and none of them have a true TOR guy who is significantly better than either Cueto or Volquez.

And look what having a TOR guys has done for the Jay's and the Mets.

TOR pitchers are great to have, but they aren't necessary to make the Playoffs, and don't guarantee it either.

Dodgers have Kershaw and Billingsley
White Sox have Buerhle
Angels have Weaver
For their park size, Millwood's pitching like a TOR guy.

The only two true contending teams on your list without a TOR guy are the Phillies and Rockies. But the Phils just added one, further evidence that they're a team who understands: no ace, no relevance.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:02 AM
If you wanted to tear apart the team and trade some really good players for 1 good player that would make so much money that we wouldn't have much flexibility than yeah I'd feel worse about that.

You, and a few others, think that the rotation can't be any good, that Bruce stinks, that the minors stinks, etc etc etc ..... but I'd like to think that the majority just don't agree.

I don't think Bruce stinks, I think he's a few years from positively impacting an offense.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 11:06 AM
Dodgers have Kershaw and Billingsley
White Sox have Buerhle
Angels have Weaver
For their park size, Millwood's pitching like a TOR guy.

The only two true contending teams on your list without a TOR guy are the Phillies and Rockies. But the Phils just added one, further evidence that they're a team who understands: no ace, no relevance.
Wow, it's fascinating how you overrate players on other teams and underrate our own players. The only pitcher you mentioned that could be a TRUE TOR guy is Kershaw and he's still learning. Buerhle/Bills are very good but TOR? And Weaver/Millwood?????

Seriously, Millwood??

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 11:06 AM
The Reds don't have another major league arm to send to the Jays. If he doesn't mind Volquez instead of Cueto. Whatever. The details are academic. Getting the ace is step number one to building anything.

I'd rather them send Volquez than Cueto, but we don't know the true state of Volquez's health, and I think 'ol JP would still have a hard time not listing every name he received for Halladay, since Volquez would probably have to be a PTBNL.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:07 AM
Wow, it's fascinating how you overrate players on other teams and underrate our own players. The only pitcher you mentioned that could be a TRUE TOR guy is Kershaw and he's still learning. Buerhle/Bills are very good but TOR? And Weaver/Millwood?????

Name a pitcher in the Reds rotation who could carry Weaver's cleats?

REDREAD
07-30-2009, 11:07 AM
The Reds don't have another major league arm to send to the Jays. If he doesn't mind Volquez instead of Cueto. Whatever. The details are academic. Getting the ace is step number one to building anything.

An ace pitcher is important, but I don't think that's what we should be targeting at this point.

Let's look at the last 4 years or so. The Reds tried that theory. First there 1/2 punch was Harang/Arroyo. We spent a lot locking them up. Now they have fallen to earth for whatever reason and are not earning their money.

Then we traded our (arguably) best position player for Volquez. He gave us an ace year, but the team still went nowhere. Now he's injured.

The problem is that this team has far too many holes. Both Wayne and Walt share the blame in that. I'd rather focus on getting a solid starting 8 first, then sell the farm for an ace pitcher. If we get Hallday, I'm pretty confident he'll put up great peripheral stats, but he will probably go something like 13-11 with this team. He's already said he's going to test FA, even if we could get him to agree to come to Cincy.

I'd rather the team focus on addressing the lack of positional player talent at this point. They can get the best pitching staff in the league, but until they upgrade the position players, they aren't going anywhere.

Investing a lot of resources in pitching at this point doesn't make sense. It's a high risk gamble (see Arroyo and Harang). The team is several years away from contending unless Bob is willing to add 30 milion of payroll in the offseason.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 11:08 AM
Name a pitcher in the Reds rotation who could carry Weaver's cleats?
cueto

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:09 AM
cueto

Please. Put him in the AL, and he'd be lucky to have an ERA under 5.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:10 AM
An ace pitcher is important, but I don't think that's what we should be targeting at this point.

Let's look at the last 4 years or so. The Reds tried that theory. First there 1/2 punch was Harang/Arroyo. We spent a lot locking them up. Now they have fallen to earth for whatever reason and are not earning their money.

Then we traded our (arguably) best position player for Volquez. He gave us an ace year, but the team still went nowhere. Now he's injured.

The problem is that this team has far too many holes. Both Wayne and Walt share the blame in that. I'd rather focus on getting a solid starting 8 first, then sell the farm for an ace pitcher. If we get Hallday, I'm pretty confident he'll put up great peripheral stats, but he will probably go something like 13-11 with this team. He's already said he's going to test FA, even if we could get him to agree to come to Cincy.

I'd rather the team focus on addressing the lack of positional player talent at this point. They can get the best pitching staff in the league, but until they upgrade the position players, they aren't going anywhere.

Investing a lot of resources in pitching at this point doesn't make sense. It's a high risk gamble (see Arroyo and Harang). The team is several years away from contending unless Bob is willing to add 30 milion of payroll in the offseason.

Yeah, I've heard that before. And that's what they'll fix. And the offense will be better. And it won't matter a bit.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Name a pitcher in the Reds rotation who could carry Weaver's cleats?

If you are talking about 2007, Aaron Harang destroys him.
If you are talking about 2008, Edinson Volquez destroys him.
If you are talking about 2009, Johnny Cueto is on par with him.

That's three. How many do you need?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:12 AM
If you are talking about 2007, Aaron Harang destroys him.
If you are talking about 2008, Edinson Volquez destroys him.
If you are talking about 2009, Johnny Cueto is on par with him.

That's three. How many do you need?

Cueto is not on a par with Weaver. Volquez was last year.

corkedbat
07-30-2009, 11:12 AM
The "details" are what makes the Reds the sorry franchise they are now. The Jays are dealing him mainly because he told them he wasn't signing a new contract and would test free agency. If he tells that to the team he has an emotional tie to, it would be moronic to deal your top talent for him to watch him walk after a year. There is no reason to even imagine he'd sign an extension here with no talent around him.

I have no problem dealing prospects or young talent (other than Cueto) for the right deal, I have my own reservations about Bruce and there are probably several deals I would be willing to include him inm but only if it made sense going forward. Deling for a rental makes ZERO sense. This would be exactly the kind of mood I would expect from this FO though.

TRF
07-30-2009, 11:13 AM
3 pages of 1's and 0's wasted talking about a trade that would never happen as Halladay would kill it in an instant.

oh joy.

Eric_the_Red
07-30-2009, 11:13 AM
Please. Put him in the AL, and he'd be lucky to have an ERA under 5.


Holy Moley. :eek:

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:14 AM
I would take Cueto over Weaver. Cueto is 23 years old and pitching well in the majors. He's going to be a stud in a couple years.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:14 AM
This would be exactly the kind of mood I would expect from this FO though.

Nah. They're targeting hitting. They just know it'll be peachy when Volquez gets healthy.

jojo
07-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Name a pitcher in the Reds rotation who could carry Weaver's cleats?

I wonder how differrent Weaver would look than Harang, Cueto and Volquez if Weaver had to pitch half his games in GABP.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:17 AM
I wonder how differrent Weaver would look than Harang, Cueto and Volquez if Weaver had to pitch half his games in GABP.

It's been discussed many times, but the AL/GAB effects would almost certainly cancel each other. If anything, pitching in the AL is probably the more treacherous impact (cf. Arroyo's 2006)

Benihana
07-30-2009, 11:18 AM
Please. Put him in the AL, and he'd be lucky to have an ERA under 5.

It's been discussed many times, but the AL/GAB effects would almost certainly cancel each other.

Yet another self-contradiction. This one in less than 10 minutes. :eek:

dfs
07-30-2009, 11:18 AM
Throw the kitchen sink at Ricciardi for Halladay. That's the only deal that could matter to this franchise. Getting rid of contracts doesn't matter (they won't re-spend it); getting prospects won't matter (no one's giving up good ones); getting Rolen won't hurt, but it's somewhat limited, and most of all he doesn't pitch.

One of the nice things about seeing a spectrum of reds fans is that every now and then I run into somebody who has a bleaker view of the franchise than I do.

I tip my cap to you sir.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Yet another self-contradiction.

You just claimed that Cueto would have an ERA over 5.00 in the AL.

Not at all. No contradiction. I said the AL hazard is worse than the GAB hazard. Think about it.

REDREAD
07-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Yeah, I've heard that before. And that's what they'll fix. And the offense will be better. And it won't matter a bit.

I'm saying that the Reds should do the Ranger's/Indians approach. Get a group of solid position players. Lock them up. Then get pitching.. That isn't exactly the Cleveland model, but you see my point.

The problem with starting at ground zero (where the Reds are) and building on pitching is that pitching is a very risky long term investment. Two years ago, there was euphoria over having Harang and Arroyo. They were untouchable. Now both players are basically immovable. I'm scared to death about Volquez's future. I hope he's ok, but he's another pretty big investment the Reds have. If he loses effectiveness due to this injury, that's a pretty big loss.

In contrast, look at Dunn. He played just about every game and gave pretty predictable performance. I'm not saying he is the perfect player, and understand why he was let go, but the point is that investing in position players is a much less risky way to go.

Build the starting 8 up, then add a Cliff Lee/Halladay when you're ready to contend. Doesn't make a lot of sense to add Halladay to this team now, given he's only 1.5 years away from FA. I'm not even sure I'd want him even if he agreed to an extension (at the trade price he would cost and salary he would command). He might end up like Harang/Arroyo in a few years.

I'd rather take the money that would be required for Halladay and use it to solve problem(s) at SS, 3b, LF, CF for the longterm. Those position player(s) stand a reasonable chance of still being around and effective in 2011.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm saying that the Reds should do the Ranger's/Indians approach. Get a group of solid position players. Lock them up. Then get pitching.. That isn't exactly the Cleveland model, but you see my point.

The problem with starting at ground zero (where the Reds are) and building on pitching is that pitching is a very risky long term investment. Two years ago, there was euphoria over having Harang and Arroyo. They were untouchable. Now both players are basically immovable. I'm scared to death about Volquez's future. I hope he's ok, but he's another pretty big investment the Reds have. If he loses effectiveness due to this injury, that's a pretty big loss.

In contrast, look at Dunn. He played just about every game and gave pretty predictable performance. I'm not saying he is the perfect player, and understand why he was let go, but the point is that investing in position players is a much less risky way to go.

Build the starting 8 up, then add a Cliff Lee/Halladay when you're ready to contend. Doesn't make a lot of sense to add Halladay to this team now, given he's only 1.5 years away from FA. I'm not even sure I'd want him even if he agreed to an extension (at the trade price he would cost and salary he would command). He might end up like Harang/Arroyo in a few years.

I'd rather take the money that would be required for Halladay and use it to solve problem(s) at SS, 3b, LF, CF for the longterm. Those position player(s) stand a reasonable chance of still being around and effective in 2011.

They've had offenses for decades. They've had offenses all through this decade.

redsfandan
07-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Please. Put him in the AL, and he'd be lucky to have an ERA under 5.
I'm really not sure I can take you seriously. Hell, I'm not sure I should've anyway with some of your posts lately. It's amazing some of the stuff you've posted. Truth is no mattter who the Reds have chances are pretty good you wouldn't like them and if the Reds actually DID make the playoffs you'd probably write it off as pure luck. In your hands the Reds would have a few good players and that's IT. You need a basketball board. Your ideas would make a little more sense there.

3 pages of 1's and 0's wasted talking about a trade that would never happen as Halladay would kill it in an instant.

oh joy.
This tread started out as a semi-serious thread about what's new today and a few possibilities and has devolved into insanity. I have to get some sleep. Have fun FCB.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 11:24 AM
The Reds do not need Halladay to compete. He would be a great addition, but not at the cost of gutting the team.

I'm sorry, but your notion that you need a true TOR guy to compete is utter nonsense, and not backed up by any facts.

The Dodgers, Phillies, Marlins, Rockies, Angels, Rangers, Rays, Twins, Brewers, and White Sox are all contending this season, and none of them have a true TOR guy who is significantly better than either Cueto or Volquez.

And look what having a TOR guys has done for the Jay's and the Mets.

TOR pitchers are great to have, but they aren't necessary to make the Playoffs, and don't guarantee it either.


Team TOR
Dodgers Billingsley
Kershaw

Phillies Hamels (although having a down year on the road this year)

Marlins Johnson

Rockies Jimenez
De La Rosa (although he might be on par with Volquez)

Angels Lackey

Rangers N/A

Rays Shields
Garza
Price (potentially)

Twins Blackburn
Liriano (although injuries may have the best of him)

Brewers Gallardo

White Sox Buehrle
Danks


So you're saying we wouldn't want any of the names on this list of the teams you identified?

Jpup
07-30-2009, 11:25 AM
I have to get some sleep. Have fun FCB.

Me too. The graveyards killin' me. :sleep:

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Back to the original rumors in this thread. I like Hermida and wouldn't mind seeing what they'd want for him. Teahen I would offer Taveras for and then that is about it, I wouldn't even deal Stubbs for him he has a UT IF's bat.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Why? Votto's a major league talent. In my trade, the only MLB talent going back to Toronto is Cueto.

Anyway, Ricciardi's looking for pitching, not hitting necessarily.

The uptick from Cueto to Halladay isn't enough to justify acquiring him. The uptick from Bailey to Halladay, however, would make a lot more sense from a resources perspective.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 11:29 AM
Dodgers have Kershaw and Billingsley
White Sox have Buerhle
Angels have Weaver
For their park size, Millwood's pitching like a TOR guy.

The only two true contending teams on your list without a TOR guy are the Phillies and Rockies. But the Phils just added one, further evidence that they're a team who understands: no ace, no relevance.

Billingsly and Kershaw and Weaver are the same as Volquez and Cueto, especially when considering parks. All three good young pitcher with TOR stuff. Too early to tell who will be that for an entire career. None of the three are outpitching Cueto of this year, or Volquez of last year.

Millwood is having a great year, but its beyond absurd to call him a TOR pitcher. Seriously.

Buehle is the only one close, but I still would not consider him in the same league as Santana, Halliday, and Carpenter or Verlander.

Basically, if you accept Billingsly, Kershaw and Weaver as TOR starters, you have to accept Cueto and Volquez. Can't have it both ways.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:31 AM
Billingsly and Kershaw and Weaver are the same as Volquez and Cueto, especially when considering parks. All three good young pitcher with TOR stuff. Too early to tell who will be that for an entire career. None of the three are outpitching Cueto of this year, or Volquez of last year.

Millwood is having a great year, but its beyond absurd to call him a TOR pitcher. Seriously.

Buehle is the only one close, but I still would not consider him in the same league as Santana, Halliday, and Carpenter or Verlander.

Basically, if you accept Billingsly, Kershaw and Weaver as TOR starters, you have to accept Cueto and Volquez. Can't have it both ways.

Cueto has a BB/9 of 3 and a K/9 of 6.8.

I'd say I don't have to accept anything of the sort. Volquez certainly has TOR stuff and he was a TOR guy last year.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 11:33 AM
Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, and Roenicke for Halladay is easily the worst trade proposal I have ever read on the internet. Giving up on Jay Bruce at 22 is amazing. It really is.

It's not giving up on Bruce, it's leveraging an asset.

Baseball is a business. If you can't leave your emotions at the door before you enter trade negotiations, then you're in the wrong business.

I like Bruce, he's one of my favorite Reds, but with the Reds sucking hardcore since 1999, I'm pretty much to the point of just taking a fantasy interest in baseball, where I follow players, not one particular team. If Bruce ends up being a Blue Jay, I'll follow him as a Blue Jay.

I continue to follow the Reds as they are my favorite team and continue to be my favorite team, but I don't think I'm alone in saying that they've become increasingly hard to watch over The Lost Decade.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:35 AM
Trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto plus more for a 32-year old has nothing to do with emotions. It would be a horrible deal for the Reds. It would be enough to make me consider walking away from the Reds for a little while.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 11:38 AM
Trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto plus more for a 32-year old has nothing to do with emotions. It would be a horrible deal for the Reds. It would be enough to make me consider walking away from the Reds for a little while.

I would have no issues with Bruce going as the centerpiece. Adding Cueto just doesn't make much sense for me. It's like offering Votto up in a package for an upgraded 1B.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:39 AM
I have no interest in trading Jay Bruce.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 11:40 AM
Cueto has a BB/9 of 3 and a K/9 of 6.8.

I'd say I don't have to accept anything of the sort. Volquez certainly has TOR stuff and he was a TOR guy last year.

My point is that they are all too young and inexperienced to classify one way or the other. They all have the stuff to be TOR guys, and all have been for some period of time. But none of them are right now.

Do the Angels and Dodgers really trust Weaver, Billingsly and Kershaw in a big game more than the Reds trust Cueto and Volquez? I doubt they do. They all feel each of these guys can deliver, but I don't think anyone is counting on them to.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2009, 11:40 AM
Please. Put him in the AL, and he'd be lucky to have an ERA under 5.

Just so we actually have some facts here:

2009 ERA+
Weaver: 121
Cueto: 117

I think it's pretty fair to say that at the very least Cueto can hold the dude's cleats. As far as this year goes, they have been very comparable pitchers, mainly because the GABP and AL effect are in total pretty comparable.

BTW, not sure how well Weaver and his 0.59 GB/FB ratio would exist in GABP. If you think Harang is a FB pitcher, wait until you see Weaver.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2009, 11:43 AM
I have no interest in trading Jay Bruce.

Your crazy.

There's no way that 5+ years of Bruce (when the Reds might actually have a decent team) is worth as much as 1.3 years worth of Halladay, especially when there's like a 99% chance that the guy would:

1. Not accept a trade to Cincy
2. Not accept a long term deal in Cincy, especially knowing that teams like the BoSox and Yanks will assuredly offer more money and a more desirable team than Cincy will.

But that's just OBM acting all crazy again...... but ya, throw in Cueto and stuff while we're at it.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
"I haven't seen Walt (Jocketty) today," Baker said. "He's manning those phones."

--The Reds have had interest all along in Scott Rolen. I would not be surprised if it happened. If it does, it says that the Reds see a void in leadership. The move would be for next year as much as it was for this year.

Edwin Encarnacion would have to be in the deal. He makes $4.75 million next year. To get the Jays to take that salary, the Reds would probably have to add a prospect

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a43c25c49-56c5-4a00-af1d-ff2c3629c533&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Team TOR
Dodgers Billingsley
Kershaw

Phillies Hamels (although having a down year on the road this year)

Marlins Johnson

Rockies Jimenez
De La Rosa (although he might be on par with Volquez)

Angels Lackey

Rangers N/A

Rays Shields
Garza
Price (potentially)

Twins Blackburn
Liriano (although injuries may have the best of him)

Brewers Gallardo

White Sox Buehrle
Danks


So you're saying we wouldn't want any of the names on this list of the teams you identified?


Love to have all of them. Not the point. I am only debating whether it is necessary to have a TOR pitcher like Halladay, Santana, Sabathia, Carpenter... in order to compete.

All those guys are excellent pitchers. I don't consider any of them to be that much better than either Cueto or Volquez.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Just so we actually have some facts here:

2009 ERA+
Weaver: 121
Cueto: 117

I think it's pretty fair to say that at the very least Cueto can hold the dude's cleats. As far as this year goes, they have been very comparable pitchers, mainly because the GABP and AL effect are in total pretty comparable.

BTW, not sure how well Weaver and his 0.59 GB/FB ratio would exist in GABP. If you think Harang is a FB pitcher, wait until you see Weaver.

Nice usage of actual facts.:thumbup:

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 11:46 AM
"I haven't seen Walt (Jocketty) today," Baker said. "He's manning those phones."

--The Reds have had interest all along in Scott Rolen. I would not be surprised if it happened. If it does, it says that the Reds see a void in leadership. The move would be for next year as much as it was for this year.

Edwin Encarnacion would have to be in the deal. He makes $4.75 million next year. To get the Jays to take that salary, the Reds would probably have to add a prospect



Leadership? Really? That's what's missing to pull this team together?

BRM
07-30-2009, 11:47 AM
Leadership? Really? That's what's missing to pull this team together?

Leadership makes pitchers pitch better and hitters hit better.

Homer Bailey
07-30-2009, 11:48 AM
For what it's worth, FanGraphs listed Jay Bruce has having the 26th most trade value in all of baseball, while Halladay has the 37th most. So according to them, giving up Bruce alone would be too much for Halladay.

http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/?p=5746

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Leadership makes pitchers pitch better and hitters hit better.

And just think what happens when you toss in some hustle!

Kc61
07-30-2009, 11:49 AM
Would you do this?

Halladay, Rolen, and Scutaro to Reds.

EE, Bruce, Roenicke, Stubbs and Wood to Toronto.

Frankly, I'm not sure I would -- which means it could be a fair deal.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 11:50 AM
"I haven't seen Walt (Jocketty) today," Baker said. "He's manning those phones."

--The Reds have had interest all along in Scott Rolen. I would not be surprised if it happened. If it does, it says that the Reds see a void in leadership. The move would be for next year as much as it was for this year.

Edwin Encarnacion would have to be in the deal. He makes $4.75 million next year. To get the Jays to take that salary, the Reds would probably have to add a prospect

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a43c25c49-56c5-4a00-af1d-ff2c3629c533&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Add a prospect? Ouch.

KoryMac5
07-30-2009, 11:51 AM
Halladay is the type of pitcher that comes by once every ten years or so. I have to agree with FCB if he is out there you pony up the farm to get him. I am tired of potential being paraded around I want results. I would definitely give a package fronted by either Cueto or Bruce with some others thrown into the mix to get him.

Unfortunately the points are moot. I don't think the Reds are in the mix for Doc nor do I think Doc would approve a deal to come and play in GABP.

But hey we got Wlad, the Vlad Guerrero knock off.

Edd Roush
07-30-2009, 11:52 AM
It's not giving up on Bruce, it's leveraging an asset.



Leveraging an asset? More like selling low. Jay Bruce has hit like a beast all throughout the minor leagues while playing above-average defense. He was seen as a consensus top 25 prospect in all of baseball. If the Blue Jays still view him as such and still give that kind of trade value, then yes you are leveraging an asset. However, trading Bruce now would be the epitome of selling low. Dude is not only on the DL, but he struggled all year getting his bearings. Let the guy get healthy and start producing before you start including him in trade talks.

Redmachine2003
07-30-2009, 11:53 AM
"I haven't seen Walt (Jocketty) today," Baker said. "He's manning those phones."

--The Reds have had interest all along in Scott Rolen. I would not be surprised if it happened. If it does, it says that the Reds see a void in leadership. The move would be for next year as much as it was for this year.

Edwin Encarnacion would have to be in the deal. He makes $4.75 million next year. To get the Jays to take that salary, the Reds would probably have to add a prospect

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a43c25c49-56c5-4a00-af1d-ff2c3629c533&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.comManning the Phone that is not working, wearing high heel shoes talking to his Mom. Or he is hiding under his desk.

Now back to the Statement about EE salary. Doesn't Rolen make at least 2 times as much as EE and Rolen has no upside so why do we have to throw in extra. They get younger and cheaper and gain an upside.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Leadership? Really? That's what's missing to pull this team together?

I am no fan of "clubhouse" guys. Unless they can produce, their leadership is rather useless most of the time. But when it is paired with actual talent, it is meaningful, and can make a difference.

I think Rolen's "leadership" is that he is talented, that he can give quality AB's and professional defense. The Reds really don't have anyone like that on the team in the starting lineup. Votto has the talent, but really has shown that he can let his emotions get the best of him. Phillips... well no need to really talk about that.

Adding a true professional to a very young, inexperienced team can have a strong, positive, stabalizing effect on the rest of the players. He gives them an idea of what a real player plays like and forces them to rise to his level. I think Rolen can be that guy.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 11:59 AM
Rolen would be the second most talented player on the roster behind Votto. I know that means nothing to the folks here.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Add a prospect? Ouch.

That's to get them to pay the difference in salary, which would allow the Reds to afford another player... hopefully.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Rolen would be the second most talented player on the roster behind Votto. I know that means nothing to the folks here.

You think he has more talent than Bruce or Cueto? Rubbish.

Homer Bailey
07-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Fay


Wladimir Balentien is here. He hasn't hit in a week.

Fits right in. No one here has hit in a month.

(stolen from the blog, but I giggled a bit when I read it.)

Homer Bailey
07-30-2009, 12:02 PM
Rolen would be the second most talented player on the roster behind Votto. I know that means nothing to the folks here.

You're right. Your ridiculous opinions mean very little.

redsmetz
07-30-2009, 12:03 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

BRM
07-30-2009, 12:04 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

:pray:

EDIT: Disregard. Fay says it's a sore left wrist.

Jpup
07-30-2009, 12:05 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

This isn't April Fools Day. ;)

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2009, 12:06 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

Per Rotoworld, it's a sore wrist.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 12:06 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

Sorry, it's a sore wrist.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a43c25c49-56c5-4a00-af1d-ff2c3629c533&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

redsmetz
07-30-2009, 12:07 PM
I figured it was some injury, but we can dream, right?

BRM
07-30-2009, 12:08 PM
How sad is it when Jerry Hairston constitutes a sizable upgrade in CF?

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 12:09 PM
So according to the Reds Twitter feed, Taveras has been scratched from today's lineup. Hmm...

You are an evil, evil man.

TRF
07-30-2009, 12:09 PM
Sorry, it's a sore wrist.


Apparently it's been sore since 2005.

BRM
07-30-2009, 12:10 PM
Apparently it's been sore since 2005.

Maybe the sore wrist is what was preventing him from "getting it going".

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:12 PM
So any actual other rumors? Not just about the Reds. Seems quiet. More trade constipation.

osuceltic
07-30-2009, 12:13 PM
Manning the Phone that is not working, wearing high heel shoes talking to his Mom. Or he is hiding under his desk.

Now back to the Statement about EE salary. Doesn't Rolen make at least 2 times as much as EE and Rolen has no upside so why do we have to throw in extra. They get younger and cheaper and gain an upside.

They get younger, cheaper and much, much worse.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 12:18 PM
That's to get them to pay the difference in salary, which would allow the Reds to afford another player... hopefully.

Maybe I've misread it, but this is what it looks like Fay is saying:

Option 1 - EE for Rolen straight up. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen AND EE.

Option 2 - EE + prospect for Rolen. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen and the Jays pay for EE.

If those are the choices, I'll pass on both.

BRM
07-30-2009, 12:18 PM
So any actual other rumors? Not just about the Reds. Seems quiet. More trade constipation.

Supposedly the Dodgers have bowed out of the Halladay sweepstakes. Stark has a column about the Marlins pursuing him though. It's an Insider column so I can't read it.

RANDY IN INDY
07-30-2009, 12:19 PM
Maybe I've misread it, but this is what it looks like Fay is saying:

Option 1 - EE for Rolen straight up. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen AND EE.

Option 2 - EE + prospect for Rolen. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen and the Jays pay for EE.

If those are the choices, I'll pass on both.

Me too.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:24 PM
I'll take option 2.

Eric_the_Red
07-30-2009, 12:28 PM
And just think what happens when you toss in some hustle!

Add a pinch of chemistry and you've got the recipe for winning! ;)

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 12:28 PM
So any actual other rumors? Not just about the Reds. Seems quiet. More trade constipation.

The Cubs are looking for a LHH platoon partner for Bradley. That hurts.

IslandRed
07-30-2009, 12:33 PM
Maybe I've misread it, but this is what it looks like Fay is saying:

Option 1 - EE for Rolen straight up. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen AND EE.

Option 2 - EE + prospect for Rolen. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen and the Jays pay for EE.

If those are the choices, I'll pass on both.

The way I read it, only Option 2 is on the table. It's just acknowledging the Reds want to include EE in the deal to lower the net salary bump, and the Jays probably won't do that unless they get someone else.

Guess it depends on who "someone else" is. I could live with it if it's not someone on the A-list.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 12:33 PM
Would you do this?

Halladay, Rolen, and Scutaro to Reds.

EE, Bruce, Roenicke, Stubbs and Wood to Toronto.

Frankly, I'm not sure I would -- which means it could be a fair deal.

If we were in first place right now, maybe.

But Scutaro is a FA after this season, and the other two after 2010.

That's a ton of talent to give up to likely finish third in 2010 and 6th therafter.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 12:33 PM
I'll take option 2.

That would be a great deal for the Jays.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:36 PM
That would be a great deal for the Jays.

What if it's someone like Lecure?

Benihana
07-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Maybe I've misread it, but this is what it looks like Fay is saying:

Option 1 - EE for Rolen straight up. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen AND EE.

Option 2 - EE + prospect for Rolen. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen and the Jays pay for EE.

If those are the choices, I'll pass on both.

Pass.

In other interesting news, the Marlins are reportedly close to dealing either Andrew Miller or Sean West (both good young lefties with upside) for Heath Bell.

Man I'd love to trade Arthur Rhodes for Andrew Miller. :rolleyes:

Benihana
07-30-2009, 12:39 PM
Would you do this?

Halladay, Rolen, and Scutaro to Reds.

EE, Bruce, Roenicke, Stubbs and Wood to Toronto.

Frankly, I'm not sure I would -- which means it could be a fair deal.

I'd consider it, especially if the Jays threw in some $$. Halladay would also have to agree to stay at least through the end of his current contract.

Sub Bailey in for Bruce and I'd drive 'em to the airport. :beerme:

Not to sound too much like BobC, but the Reds could conceivably contend this year after such a trade (your initial proposal.) If they could get an OF bat in the offseason, they'd be division favorites for 2010.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 12:44 PM
What if it's someone like Lecure?

EE for Rolen, straight up, is a good deal for the Jays.

osuceltic
07-30-2009, 12:46 PM
EE for Rolen, straight up, is a good deal for the Jays.

You mean it's a good deal for their accountant.

It's an atrocious deal for their baseball team.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
EE for Rolen, straight up, is a good deal for the Jays.

I doubt the deal gets made. Nevertheless, they need a defensive answer at 3rd. If he's manning 3rd next year, you can take whatever record they'd otherwise have and add three more losses.

REDREAD
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
They've had offenses for decades. They've had offenses all through this decade.

Good point. They failed to do step 2 in most years. After you get a group of solid position players (which includes defense as well as offense), then get pitching.

In 1999, they succeeded in doing this plan though. The position players were all in place, other than Vaughn. Then Parris, Villone, Guzman, Neagle, Avery,Reyes, Williamson, and Bere were added/promoted.. They found enough pitching to be competitive.

Do you see my point though? Harang and Arroyo are good examples of why building your team's core around starting pitching is risky business. IMO, most pitching has a short shelf life (relative to positional players).

The past 4 years, the Reds have focused so much on pitching (with mixed results) that they've largely neglected the position players. That's how we end up with Patterson, Nix, Tavares, Bako, AGon, Keppinger, etc getting a lot of at bats and killing us.

VR
07-30-2009, 12:48 PM
Anyone doing a game thread today? I'm trying to work here....

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Anyone doing a game thread today? I'm trying to work here....

Pads 1, Reds 0. Bottom 1

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 12:55 PM
You mean it's a good deal for their accountant.

It's an atrocious deal for their baseball team.

A good deal for their accountant and a good deal for their baseball team.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:56 PM
A good deal for their accountant and a good deal for their baseball team.

I do wonder where they'd play EdE.

dougdirt
07-30-2009, 12:58 PM
A good deal for their accountant and a good deal for their baseball team.

Scott Rolen >>> Edwin Encarnacion.

Rolen is every bit as good with the bat as Edwin may become and the gloves.... well thats a 2-3 win advantage for Rolen without thinking about it.

VR
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Pads 1, Reds 0. Bottom 1

Only 1 run in the top of the 1st, a huge victory....and JC keeps his 9.00 earnie over the last month + going. :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Good point. They failed to do step 2 in most years. After you get a group of solid position players (which includes defense as well as offense), then get pitching.

In 1999, they succeeded in doing this plan though. The position players were all in place, other than Vaughn. Then Parris, Villone, Guzman, Neagle, Avery,Reyes, Williamson, and Bere were added/promoted.. They found enough pitching to be competitive.

Do you see my point though? Harang and Arroyo are good examples of why building your team's core around starting pitching is risky business. IMO, most pitching has a short shelf life (relative to positional players).

The past 4 years, the Reds have focused so much on pitching (with mixed results) that they've largely neglected the position players. That's how we end up with Patterson, Nix, Tavares, Bako, AGon, Keppinger, etc getting a lot of at bats and killing us.

The Reds won in 1999 because they had a guy already on the staff who was better than any current Reds' starter (Harnisch), and they traded a position player for an even better starter (Neagle). Earlier, they'd traded for a deep bullpen. Their offense was great, yes (though the offenses that included Larkin in the late 90s were never total jokes), but they closed a huge pitching chasm by adding Neagle and Parris, then Guzman.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Maybe I've misread it, but this is what it looks like Fay is saying:

Option 1 - EE for Rolen straight up. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen AND EE.

Option 2 - EE + prospect for Rolen. Next year, the Reds pay for Rolen and the Jays pay for EE.

If those are the choices, I'll pass on both.


That's to get them to pay the difference in salary, which would allow the Reds to afford another player... hopefully.

I was trying to say that Fay hopefully (probably) got it wrong, or was a typo. All the reports are that the Reds are trying to get the Jays to include money to equal the salaries and the Jay's want a prospect for that to happen.

Remember this is Fay speculating, and it is not based on anything he heard.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 01:07 PM
I was trying to say that Fay hopefully (probably) got it wrong, or was a typo. All the reports are that the Reds are trying to get the Jays to include money to equal the salaries and the Jay's want a prospect for that to happen.

Remember this is Fay speculating, and it is not based on anything he heard.

Fay is like the anti-Santa Claus.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 01:08 PM
I was trying to say that Fay hopefully (probably) got it wrong, or was a typo. All the reports are that the Reds are trying to get the Jays to include money to equal the salaries and the Jay's want a prospect for that to happen.

Remember this is Fay speculating, and it is not based on anything he heard.

Gotcha. That makes much more sense.

RichRed
07-30-2009, 01:08 PM
I'm holding out the faintest of hopes that the Rolen stuff is misdirection and Walt's really going after Halladay. I remember reading something about Jocketty's MO being to wear the other guy down until he acquiesced so I hope he's playing the "You can either dance with me or you can keep holding up that wall" game with Ricciardi.

BrooklynRedz
07-30-2009, 01:12 PM
I remember reading something about Jocketty's MO being to wear the other guy down until he acquiesced so I hope he's playing the "You can either dance with me or you can keep holding up that wall" game with Ricciardi.

Oh man. I really hope this is a misrepresentation because if Walt's strategy is to annoy the other dude into relenting to a deal then we're in big big trouble.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Oh man. I really hope this is a misrepresentation because if Walt's strategy is to annoy the other dude into relenting to a deal then we're in big big trouble.

I'm not sure "annoy" is what RichRed is suggesting. I could be wrong. He would be "annoying" Ricciardi if he had nothing to offer him, but clearly, the Reds have some talent he should be interested in.

Nevertheless, nothing of importance is going to get done with Toronto (and that includes any team). Ricciardi has finally flaked.

REDREAD
07-30-2009, 01:20 PM
The Reds won in 1999 because they had a guy already on the staff who was better than any current Reds' starter (Harnisch), and they traded a position player for an even better starter (Neagle). Earlier, they'd traded for a deep bullpen. Their offense was great, yes (though the offenses that included Larkin in the late 90s were never total jokes), but they closed a huge pitching chasm by adding Neagle and Parris, then Guzman.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. The plan worked. They had a solid base of position players, then added pitching. Parris, Villone, and Neagle all had short shelf lives for the Reds. Heck, really even Reyes/Williamson had relatively short shelf lives. Reyes later became effective again. Graves lost effectiveness after a few years. It's the nature of pitching.

It's a lot easier to get your position players in line and locked up and then rent some pitching, than it is to lock up solid pitching for 5 years and then scramble to build a starting 8.

I mean, it's kind of a waste to have Harang/Arroyo/Cueto/Volquez with the position players we have. We're already seeing Harang/Arroyo possibly starting to decline, but we're stuck with them.

RichRed
07-30-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure "annoy" is what RichRed is suggesting. I could be wrong. He would be "annoying" Ricciardi if he had nothing to offer him, but clearly, the Reds have some talent he should be interested in.

Right. I'd like to think of it more as "dogged persistence" than "annoying." Obviously, I have no idea either way but I want to believe Walt is aiming high.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 01:21 PM
He would be "annoying" Ricciardi if he had nothing to offer him, but clearly, the Reds have some talent he should be interested in.

Did you just admit that this team has some talent? :D

hippie07
07-30-2009, 01:23 PM
http://http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html (http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html)
Talking Yonder Alonso for Rolen - what?

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 01:26 PM
http://http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html (http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html)
Talking Yonder Alonso for Rolen - what?

Yeah, that would about wrap up my defense of Walt, I must say.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 01:27 PM
http://http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html (http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html)
Talking Yonder Alonso for Rolen - what?

LOL. That would only confirm what I already thought - Walt Jocketty is a horrible GM.

hippie07
07-30-2009, 01:28 PM
Yeah, that would about wrap up my defense of Walt, I must say.

Well, if there's any truth to the rumor that Alonso is being discussed ... I hope there's a lot more coming back than just Rolen ....

Halladay, maybe ....

flyer85
07-30-2009, 01:29 PM
we really have no idea what is or isn't being discussed. While I am no fan of Walt I pay no attention to all the crap flowing about potential deals. When and if something actually happens, thats when I might get fired up about it.

redsfan4445
07-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Cant be a smart move offering a #1 pick for a 34 year old guy making 11 million next year.. HOW STUPID!! i hope this is a stupid rumour..and not even close to being true unless Haladay is in the mix, which i doubt..

redsfan30
07-30-2009, 01:30 PM
I hope Scott Rolen is a Red come this time tomorrow and I am not at all against trading Yonder in the right deal.

But straight up for each other would not be a good idea at all.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 01:30 PM
Well, if there's any truth to the rumor that Alonso is being discussed ... I hope there's a lot more coming back than just Rolen ....

Halladay, maybe ....

Hopefully there would be more involved. And again, these are just rumors. Only God knows if this guy has any clue.

But that would be a bad trade.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 01:31 PM
http://http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html (http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/dodgers-now-fro.html)
Talking Yonder Alonso for Rolen - what?

Sounds like someone is confused.

Harang has been mentioned in rumors with the Jay's. I'm guessing the Reds are offering a package of Harang, Alonso and prospects for Halladay or maybe a bigger package for Halladay and Rolen. One report did say that the Jay's were impressed with what the Reds offered for Halladay. Some of the names got leaked out, and writers are just assuming it's for Rolen alone.

That would be awesome if the Reds could pull that off. Very, very doubtful however.

M2
07-30-2009, 01:32 PM
Pass.

In other interesting news, the Marlins are reportedly close to dealing either Andrew Miller or Sean West (both good young lefties with upside) for Heath Bell.

Man I'd love to trade Arthur Rhodes for Andrew Miller. :rolleyes:

Now that's thinking.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 01:33 PM
Cant be a smart move offering a #1 pick for a 34 year old guy making 11 million next year.. HOW STUPID!! i hope this is a stupid rumour..and not even close to being true unless Haladay is in the mix, which i doubt..

If there's any credence to this, then I suspect that BCast has Steinbrennered Jocketty on the Rolen discussions. (See Patterson, C.; Cordero, F.)

dunner13
07-30-2009, 01:34 PM
I did read that for the jays to cover any of rolens salary they needed a good prospect in return. I have never been a big alonso fan so to be honest if we get rolen who is an all star caliber 3b, offensively and defensively and alot of cash I could probably live with the trade.

nate
07-30-2009, 01:36 PM
Just read on MLBTR:


Looks like Rolen to Reds has a "good chance" of getting done

dougdirt
07-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Just read on MLBTR:

Which can be good or bad depending on the deal itself.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Willingham has been pulled from the Nats lineup and rumors are obviously swirling. No mention of where he might be going to.

blumj
07-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Sounds like someone is confused.



JP Ricciardi seems to do a lot of his leaking through the Boston/New England media. Chances are it's out there because he wants it to be.

redsfan30
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
I am definetly in favor of Scott Rolen coming here.

alloverjr
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
If anyone cares, Pads 2 Reds 0 thru 3. Reds do have 2 hits. Cueto has given up 7, yes 7 baserunners in the first 3.

Now back to the Jays.

johngalt
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Even if Alonso would be involved, it would still need to be as a PTBNL since it's less than a year since he signed his contract.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
(1) I could be wrong

(2) but clearly, the Reds have some talent he should be interested in.



That's two statements I've never heard you utter.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 01:40 PM
Willingham was pulled from the lineup because of a stiff neck.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Willingham has been pulled from the Nats lineup and rumors are obviously swirling. No mention of where he might be going to.

Willingham for Roenicke and Maloney?

nate
07-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Willingham has been pulled from the Nats lineup and rumors are obviously swirling. No mention of where he might be going to.

They just reported he has a stiff neck. Maybe he was hanging out with Hanigan?

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 01:41 PM
I did read that for the jays to cover any of rolens salary they needed a good prospect in return. I have never been a big alonso fan so to be honest if we get rolen who is an all star caliber 3b, offensively and defensively and alot of cash I could probably live with the trade.


Giving up 6 cost controlled years of Alonso for one expensive year of Rolen is just a horrible, horrible trade.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 01:41 PM
I hope Boss and GIK have the backup server farm warmed up and on standby for the next couple of days.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 01:41 PM
How is it that the only reporter with any information on the Reds-Rolen deal is a second line Boston sportswriter?

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 01:42 PM
How is it that the only reporter with any information on the Reds-Rolen deal is a second line Boston sportswriter?

Another reason why we can't freak out just yet.

BRM
07-30-2009, 01:43 PM
I hope Boss and GIK have the backup server farm warmed up and on standby for the next couple of days.

Expecting a major deal? I'm not sure that I am.

BRM
07-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Another reason why we can't freak out just yet.

We've been freaked out all week.

RichRed
07-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Willingham was pulled from the lineup because of a stiff neck.

"Stiff Neck" Willingham for "Sore Wrist" Taveras.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 01:45 PM
I wish the Reds had traded for Willingham in the offseason. The Nats got him for next to nothing.

nate
07-30-2009, 01:46 PM
Another reason why we can't freak out just yet.

Who wants to be the last one to freak out though?

:cool:

BrooklynRedz
07-30-2009, 01:48 PM
JP Ricciardi seems to do a lot of his leaking through the Boston/New England media. Chances are it's out there because he wants it to be.


Even if Alonso would be involved, it would still need to be as a PTBNL since it's less than a year since he signed his contract.

Not saying anything is necessarily true regarding any of this but, IF the Jays were going to make a major move with a PTBNL coming back, Ricciardi would be wise to leak the identity.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 01:48 PM
Expecting a major deal? I'm not sure that I am.

I'm not expecting one either.I fully expect some window dressing moves and nothing else.

But I suspect even doing nothing at the deadline will generate a lot of discussion on RZ this year.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 01:50 PM
What I get from all the rumors about the Reds lately is that Walt is either an evil genius with a secret plan or has no clue how to configure a major league baseball team.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 01:50 PM
Alonso for Rolen would be the worst Reds trade of my lifetime.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 01:53 PM
Alonso for Rolen would be the worst Reds trade of my lifetime.

You sir, were obviously born after 1965.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 01:53 PM
You sir, were obviously born after 1965.

Yep.

LoganBuck
07-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Alonso for Rolen would be the worst Reds trade of my lifetime.

+1

Walt we didn't really mean for you to pop the "prospect bubble" with a howitzer.

blumj
07-30-2009, 01:54 PM
How is it that the only reporter with any information on the Reds-Rolen deal is a second line Boston sportswriter?
JP Ricciardi is from MA, he's always using the Boston media.

reds44
07-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Alonso for Rolen would be the worst Reds trade of my lifetime.
It would be beyond bad.

I'm still holding out hopes they can acquire Rolen without dealing Alonso (obviously) or EE.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 01:58 PM
Trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto plus more for a 32-year old has nothing to do with emotions. It would be a horrible deal for the Reds. It would be enough to make me consider walking away from the Reds for a little while.

I'm not trading Bruce & Cueto for Halladay.

I'm trading Bruce & Volquez.

Big difference, IMO.

reds44
07-30-2009, 01:59 PM
The Reds aren't getting Roy Halladay.

The end.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 02:00 PM
I'm not trading Bruce & Cueto for Halladay.

I'm trading Bruce & Volquez.

Big difference, IMO.

And that's still an awful, awful trade.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 02:01 PM
I'm not trading Bruce & Cueto for Halladay.

I'm trading Bruce & Volquez.

Big difference, IMO.


The difference is that one is a really really bad deal, and the other is a really, really horrible deal.

And in any event, why trade all that? No one is close to that proposal.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:02 PM
The Reds aren't getting Roy Halladay.

The end.

You're right. And they're going to be awful for at least the next two seasons unless they find someone of a similar ilk. Balentien is the extent of the deadline deals for the Reds.

They might shed Arroyo in August; that'll be about the best we can hope for. Which is more or less nothing.

redsfan4445
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
just posted"

Blue Jays, Reds Talking Scott Rolen
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 12:34pm CST]
12:34pm: No mention of Alonso from him, but Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun tweets, "Looks like Rolen to Reds has a 'good chance' of getting done."

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 02:06 PM
Halladay has absolutely no reason to come to Cincy, it's not happening.

Rolen, on the other hand, should have been here already. I'm starting to look at this in a different perspective. The Reds, outside of Votto, have no "professional" ballplayers. On offense, they are a group of hackers. EE has potential, but is, lets face it, a lousy fielder. With Rolen they get a leader who can both hit and field. The downside, of course is his age and durability.

If they give up Alonso, they then don't have the where do we put Votto headache in the next couple of years.

I think if it happens, the next step is a LF, but with Rolen, he doesn't need to be right handed, which helps greatly.

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong--but I'm trying to get into Walt's head and figure out where he is going.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 02:07 PM
And that's still an awful, awful trade.

Gotta give something to get something.

CTA513
07-30-2009, 02:07 PM
You're right. And they're going to be awful for at least the next two seasons unless they find someone of a similar ilk. Balentien is the extent of the deadline deals for the Reds.

They might shed Arroyo in August; that'll be about the best we can hope for. Which is more or less nothing.

They have been awful for a while so being awful for the next two seasons wouldn't be anything new.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Balentien is the extent of the deadline deals for the Reds.


I'm willing to bet you're wrong about that.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:09 PM
They have been awful for a while so being awful for the next two seasons wouldn't be anything new.

The losing stops at some point? Maybe Bob meant now in biblical time.

Honestly, though, your point is probably what they're thinking right now.

jojo
07-30-2009, 02:09 PM
If it takes Alonzo to get Rolen, doesn't it make more sense to just sign Beltre this fall?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:10 PM
I'm willing to bet you're wrong about that.

Maybe. I could see some things shaking out in August.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:10 PM
If it takes Alonzo to get Rolen, doesn't it make more sense to just sign Beltre this fall?

Yeah.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
The difference is that one is a really really bad deal, and the other is a really, really horrible deal.

And in any event, why trade all that? No one is close to that proposal.

IMO, Volquez's mechanics scream short career, so why not move him for a proven commodity?

Volquez alone won't get us Halladay, so we gotta give up some talent. I don't want to give up Votto, so Bruce is the next closet thing we have to young talent, so why not?

Hoping that we plant magic beans from our farm and they miraculously sprout at the same time is just folly. We can't pin all our hopes on the farm developing, since it hasn't happened over The Lost Decade.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:12 PM
6-1 Pads. It keeps getting better. 6 earnies for Cueto.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 02:13 PM
I"m not against trading Alonso per se, but saying we can trade him to remove the "where do we play Votto headache" is senseless.

The Cards had the same problem with Wallace/Pujols, and used that trade chip to get Holliday.

Alonso is a better prospect than Wallace, and posters want to trade him for Rolen?

Trade Alonso if you want, but get a high end SS prospect back in return.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I"m not against trading Alonso per se, but saying we can trade him to remove the "where do we play Votto headache" is senseless.

The Cards had the same problem with Wallace/Pujols, and used that trade chip to get Holliday.

Alonso is a better prospect than Wallace, and posters want to trade him for Rolen?

Trade Alonso if you want, but get a high end SS prospect back in return.

His name is Yunel Escobar. Do it this offseason.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Poor defense cost the Reds four runs. This is not a good defensive team. It was earlier in the season but not now.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I"m not against trading Alonso per se, but saying we can trade him to remove the "where do we play Votto headache" is senseless.

The Cards had the same problem with Wallace/Pujols, and used that trade chip to get Holliday.

Alonso is a better prospect than Wallace, and posters want to trade him for Rolen?

Trade Alonso if you want, but get a high end SS prospect back in return.

I don't think anyone wants to trade Alonso for Rolen.

wolfboy
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I"m not against trading Alonso per se, but saying we can trade him to remove the "where do we play Votto headache" is senseless.

The Cards had the same problem with Wallace/Pujols, and used that trade chip to get Holliday.

Alonso is a better prospect than Wallace, and posters want to trade him for Rolen?

Trade Alonso if you want, but get a high end SS prospect back in return.

Stop making sense.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 02:15 PM
I don't think anyone wants to trade Alonso for Rolen.

I hope that includes your boy Walt.

Raisor
07-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Trade Alonso if you want, but get a high end SS prospect back in return.

Well, I wonder what Fonzie would say about this comment:

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/da5ba2c81a2a19fc


"Exactamundo!"

Thanks Fonzie.

HokieRed
07-30-2009, 02:17 PM
I want to trade for Rolen but I do not want to trade Alonso for anybody.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 02:17 PM
IMO, Volquez's mechanics scream short career, so why not move him for a proven commodity?

Volquez alone won't get us Halladay, so we gotta give up some talent. I don't want to give up Votto, so Bruce is the next closet thing we have to young talent, so why not?




Halladay's contract screams short career with the Reds, and that's a certainty.

WHy not? Because Halladay for one year won't make the difference, especially if we don't have Volquez and Bruce. And then 2011 comes, and we have none of them.

If our farm system doesn't produce Hallady won't make a hill of beans difference. Halladay makes us better for one year (perhaps). But he doesn't put us over the top.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Poor defense cost the Reds four runs. This is not a good defensive team. It was earlier in the season but not now.

EE was injured. That was the big improvement.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Scott Rolen >>> Edwin Encarnacion.

Rolen is every bit as good with the bat as Edwin may become and the gloves.... well thats a 2-3 win advantage for Rolen without thinking about it.

And when Rolen misses 1/3 of every season due to his back, is he still that valuable? So 67% of Scott Rolen is better than all of triple E?

Don't think so.

And I would also bet that Rolen we'll miss even more games has he ages. By the way, the last two years offensively:

EE
2007: 80.6 RC, 5.98 RC/27
2008: 80.4 RC, 5.47 RC/27

Rolen
2007: 50.8 RC, 4.41 RC/27
2008: 62.1 RC, 5.31 RC/27

So, let me get this straight. A 24-25 year old that is maturing and puts those numbers up over two years is equal offensively to a 33-34 year old that is regressing with age and puts up worse numbers?

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 04:22 PM
And when Rolen misses 1/3 of every season due to his back, is he still that valuable? So 67% of Scott Rolen is better than all of triple E?

Don't think so.

And I would also bet that Rolen we'll miss even more games has he ages. By the way, the last two years offensively:

EE
2007: 80.6 RC, 5.98 RC/27
2008: 80.4 RC, 5.47 RC/27

Rolen
2007: 50.8 RC, 4.41 RC/27
2008: 62.1 RC, 5.31 RC/27

So, let me get this straight. A 24-25 year old that is maturing and puts those numbers up over two years is equal offensively to a 33-34 year old that is regressing with age and puts up worse numbers?


So when Rolen loses 2/3 of a season just like EE did this year?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 04:25 PM
So when Rolen loses 2/3 of a season just like EE did this year?

EE = freak wrist injury (one year).

Rolen = aging back (multiple years).

Not quite the same thing.

Would you like to bet who misses more games due to injuries over the next three years?

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 04:28 PM
EE = freak wrist injury (one year).

Rolen = aging back (multiple years).

Not quite the same thing.

Would you like to bet who misses more games due to injuries over the next three years?

Not sure I'll be alive in three years. But I think they both have the same chance to stay healthy over the next year and a half, which how long Rolen needs to stay healthy to make the deal worth it.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Not sure I'll be alive in three years. But I think they both have the same chance to stay healthy over the next year and a half, which how long Rolen needs to stay healthy to make the deal worth it.

How would a year and a half of Rolen, paying him $15M, make it worth it?

So we can have a few less errors (when he's not nursing his back) and a FO that cries poor and acquires more cheap, dead weight over the next off-season?

That makes it worth something, even if the team is not competing anyway?

I don't get it.

Ltlabner
07-30-2009, 04:37 PM
How would a year and a half of Rolen, paying him $15M, make it worth it?

So we can have a few less errors (when he's not nursing his back) and a FO that cries poor and acquires more cheap, dead weight over the next off-season?

That makes it worth something, even if the team is not competing anyway?

I don't get it.

You aren't alone.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 04:58 PM
How would a year and a half of Rolen, paying him $15M, make it worth it?

So we can have a few less errors (when he's not nursing his back) and a FO that cries poor and acquires more cheap, dead weight over the next off-season?

That makes it worth something, even if the team is not competing anyway?

I don't get it.

It's not a few less errors.

The last two years, Rolen is a +8 UZR/150. EE is a minus 12 for his career. That's 20 runs or 2 wins. That's worth around $10-15M in this market.
Let's say he is only healthy half the season next year, he still would be a win better than EE. That's assuming their bats are the same, and I would bet Rolen does better in GABP than EE every has.

LoganBuck
07-30-2009, 05:18 PM
4:13pm: ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Reds "backed off a potential deal" for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there's the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 05:19 PM
Great to hear they "will listen"!

BRM
07-30-2009, 05:22 PM
Here comes PayFlex!!

*BaseClogger*
07-30-2009, 05:29 PM
If it takes Alonzo to get Rolen, doesn't it make more sense to just sign Beltre this fall?

Sorry jojo to be the spelling police, but for a guy as smart as you why do you always spell his last name "Alonzo"? The curiousity is just killing me...

RedsBaron
07-30-2009, 05:29 PM
I'm not trading Bruce & Cueto for Halladay.

I'm trading Bruce & Volquez.

Big difference, IMO.
:barf::barf::barf::barf:
Bruce has had a disapppointing year. He is also 22 years old, cheap, and with tremendous potential to improve. Rolen is 34 and more likely to quickly fade and/or get injured again rather than improve. I wouldn't trade Bruce straight up for Rolen, let alone throw in Cueto or Volquez.

redsfan4445
07-30-2009, 05:32 PM
Reds Back Off Rolen Deal
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 4:13pm CST]
4:13pm: ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Reds "backed off a potential deal" for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there's the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 05:34 PM
It's not a few less errors.

The last two years, Rolen is a +8 UZR/150. EE is a minus 12 for his career. That's 20 runs or 2 wins. That's worth around $10-15M in this market.
Let's say he is only healthy half the season next year, he still would be a win better than EE. That's assuming their bats are the same, and I would bet Rolen does better in GABP than EE every has.

It's 8-10 less errors over 162 games played and Rolen will be lucky to play in 70% of the games. So, what are we talking about here, 5-7 less errors? I seriously doubt Rolen has much more range than EE at 3B. EE's problems are his throws. Ok, so 5-7 less bad throws all year for a difference of 10 million?

Plus, it's been shown that EE has been more productive offensively the past two years. Rolen has got a good head start on him in 2009 (and we'll see how it plays out), but you can't ignore 2007 and 2008 and think a 35-year old is just going to find the fountain of youth and get back to where he was 4-7 years ago.

So you are paying for an aging defender (that is getting worse with age) that commits a few less errors than a 26-year old that can only stay the same or get better.

I still don't get it.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Reds Back Off Rolen Deal
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 4:13pm CST]
4:13pm: ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Reds "backed off a potential deal" for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there's the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.

lol.

Well, they have less than 24 hours and I hope that discussing that pointless trade for Rolen doesn't end up wasting time that they might have needed to unload the others.

BRM
07-30-2009, 05:36 PM
In non-Reds news...

From Jon Heyman:


The Cubs are "very close'' to acquiring pitchers John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny in a deal with the Pirates, sources confirm.

"The Cubs already have a good bullpen,'' a competitor complained.

redsfan4445
07-30-2009, 05:38 PM
you watch they wont get rid of anybody and the lossing will continue in 2010.. YAY GRRRRRRRRRR

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 05:39 PM
lol.

Well, they have less than 24 hours and I hope that discussing that pointless trade for Rolen doesn't end up wasting time that they might have needed to unload the others.

Eh, they have through August to do virtually all the unloading. The only ones they'll have hustle out the door by Friday are Weathers and Rhodes.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Eh, they have through August to do virtually all the unloading. The only ones they'll have hustle out the door by Friday are Weathers and Rhodes.

Unloading? Yes. But the returns won't be as appetizing.

IslandRed
07-30-2009, 05:42 PM
So you are paying for an aging defender (that is getting worse) with age that commits a few less errors than a 26-year old that can only stay the same or get better.

I still don't get it.

If you want to believe there's no meaningful difference in the two defensively, that's your call. As for me, if I'm running the Reds, I'm done with Encarnacion as a third baseman. He's going to another position or another team. That doesn't necessarily make Rolen the right solution (especially at full price) but it's on the "got to be done" list.

LoganBuck
07-30-2009, 05:43 PM
Unloading? Yes. But the returns won't be as appetizing.

Right now the returns look like eating rotten sheep eyeballs with Bear Grylls.

11larkin11
07-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Right now the returns look like eating rotten sheep eyeballs with Bear Grylls.

You mean YOU eating sheep eyeballs while Bear sneaks Gobstoppers then leaves you in the middle of the night to stay in his hotel?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 05:46 PM
Unloading? Yes. But the returns won't be as appetizing.

What do you want for Harang and Arroyo and Weathers?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2009, 05:47 PM
If you want to believe there's no meaningful difference in the two defensively, that's your call. As for me, if I'm running the Reds, I'm done with Encarnacion as a third baseman. He's going to another position or another team. That doesn't necessarily make Rolen the right solution (especially at full price) but it's on the "got to be done" list.


I never said there was no meaningful difference. Any difference, however, is negated by Rolen's inability to stay healthy.

You want to move Edwin from 3B? Fine. I agree. Bring up Frazier. Try Sutton. Trade for a cheap stop-gap 3B. But if the alternative is a 35-year old, that has already seen his better days, at $11M, count me out.

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 05:48 PM
What do you want for Harang and Arroyo and Weathers?

Depends on how much money Cincy would have to eat.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm not sure Weathers gets through waivers.

M2
07-30-2009, 05:49 PM
If you want to believe there's no meaningful difference in the two defensively, that's your call. As for me, if I'm running the Reds, I'm done with Encarnacion as a third baseman. He's going to another position or another team. That doesn't necessarily make Rolen the right solution (especially at full price) but it's on the "got to be done" list.

I'm of the same opinion. SS is a bigger hole, but the Reds have got to find a fix at 3B.

My answer would be Todd Frazier with potentially a 2010 stopgap in case he needs the better part of a year in AAA.

BRM
07-30-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm not sure Weathers gets through waivers.

I can't imagine that he would. If he is to be moved, it has to be now.

IslandRed
07-30-2009, 05:49 PM
Unloading? Yes. But the returns won't be as appetizing.

Right now, the prospective returns aren't just unappetizing, they're non-existent. We probably can't get a sack of baseballs for the three high-priced pitchers without picking up a fat chunk of their respective contracts. This will likely be proven when they go unclaimed in waivers.

To get any sort of meaningful return, they need to be pitching well at a moment when a moneyed team's desperation level is higher than anyone's seems to be right now.

GAC
07-30-2009, 05:53 PM
What are the alternatives if the Reds want Halladay? What do you think Ricciardi would settle for?

Your best topflight prospects. Thats why no deal could be made with either the Phillies or NY. Ya gotta give it your best shot if you want him.

That's why he'll never be in a Red's uni.

But we'll probably give them up to land a Rolen. ;)

Falls City Beer
07-30-2009, 05:58 PM
If you thought 2003 was a tough baseline from which to build, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 06:03 PM
If you thought 2003 was a tough baseline from which to build, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Disagree.

1. THE TOP YOUNG BATS: I'd take Votto and Bruce over Dunn and Kearns.
2. THE TALENTED INFIELDER: I'd take Brandon Phillips over Aaron Boone.
3. THE YOUNG STARTERS: I'd take Cueto, Volquez and even Bailey over Brian Reith
4. THE YOUNG RELIEVERS: I'd take Masset, Roenicke et al over Reitsma and Wagner.
5. THE EXPENSIVE ALL-STAR VET: Cordero brings more to the table now than Larkin did in 2003-04.
6. THE MINOR LEAGUES: And last but certainly not least, I'd without question take the Reds' top 5 prospects (Alonso, Stewart, Frazier, Heisey, and Wood) over anything the Reds system had in 2003.
7. THE KID: For posterity's sake, I'll take Yorman Rodriguez over Chris Gruler. ;)


Obviously, the situation as it stands now sucks. It's difficult to remember a time where the collective morale of Redszone has been so low. But remember that even in the worst case scenario where they can't trade Harang or Arroyo, they both come off the books after next year.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 06:04 PM
It's 8-10 less errors over 162 games played and Rolen will be lucky to play in 70% of the games. So, what are we talking about here, 5-7 less errors? I seriously doubt Rolen has much more range than EE at 3B. EE's problems are his throws. Ok, so 5-7 less bad throws all year for a difference of 10 million?

Plus, it's been shown that EE has been more productive offensively the past two years. Rolen has got a good head start on him in 2009 (and we'll see how it plays out), but you can't ignore 2007 and 2008 and think a 35-year old is just going to find the fountain of youth and get back to where he was 4-7 years ago.

So you are paying for an aging defender (that is getting worse with age) that commits a few less errors than a 26-year old that can only stay the same or get better.

I still don't get it.

UZR/150 is not just errors, it's range and everything defense related too. For example, in today's game, EE made a bad throw in a DP attempt that pulled Phillips off the bag. That resulted in 4 more runs. Now UZR/150 would only count that as .8 of a run, but the point is that it counts every thing a fielder does on the field while playing defense.

So it's not just about the errors, it's everything that EE does that Rolen does better, and according to this metric, Rolen's defense is worth around 20 runs a season over EE's, and that has been consistent for years.

And it's only for one year, so who really cares about an aging vet. Rolen is not going to fall off the face of the earth next year and be Jerry Hairston. No one knows who is going do better next year, but it has been pretty well established that Rolen is far more advanced skill and talent wise than EE. I say the odds are even as to who has a better year.

BearcatShane
07-30-2009, 06:10 PM
Well it's official now, the Cubs get John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny for Jose Ascanio, Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison.

BearcatShane
07-30-2009, 06:12 PM
I knew the name Josh Harrison sounded familiar, he's a former UC Bearcat.

TheNext44
07-30-2009, 06:18 PM
Well it's official now, the Cubs get John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny for Jose Ascanio, Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison.

Another good haul for the Pirates.

Benihana
07-30-2009, 06:18 PM
Teams in conversation with the Dodgers say they have interest in David Weathers, Matt Capps, Arthur Rhodes and Jason Frasor.

Meanwhile, the Angels are prioritizing relievers over starters, Stark reports. One scout says the Angels are after "premium" relievers. They were considering Heath Bell today and inquired about Chad Qualls only to find that the D'Backs aren't likely to move him.


From the Dodgers: Ethan Martin, Scott Elbert, and Dee Gordon all interest me.
From the Angels: I'd happily take Brandon Wood or Erick Aybar off their hands.

C'mon Walt, 22 hours to make some magic.

EDIT: The Rockies also want relievers, and turned down an offer of Eric Young Jr. for Grabow and Beimel (separately). I'd inquire to see if by any chance they like Weathers or Rhodes better than those two.