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vaticanplum
07-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Did I miss this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?hp

Most notably Ramirez and Ortiz in 03. I don't know if any of you heard this, since it's a state secret, but 2003 was Ortiz's first season in Boston and they won the World Series the next year (I know! Crazy, right?! There was a three-game playoff defecit and everything! Where is ESPN on this?!?)

seriously, I hate steroids, but the results of the 03 tests were never to be made public, and whoever is responsible should be prosecuted in my opinion.

dougdirt
07-30-2009, 01:01 PM
Did I miss this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?hp

Most notably Ramirez and Ortiz in 03. I don't know if any of you heard this, since it's a state secret, but 2003 was Ortiz's first season in Boston and they won the World Series the next year (I know! Crazy, right?! There was a three-game playoff defecit and everything! Where is ESPN on this?!?)

seriously, I hate steroids, but the results of the 03 tests were never to be made public, and whoever is responsible should be prosecuted in my opinion.

I am pretty sure its not something you can be prosecuted for it. Fired, sure. Perhaps even sued... but not prosecuted.

SunDeck
07-30-2009, 01:14 PM
It used to be that if you were over weight, but really athletic and gifted with extraordinary hand-eye coordination and could hit a baseball a mile despite looking like you belonged on a bar stool, you were named Babe Ruth. Then along came David Ortiz (who actually can play first base), giving hope to all those beer league fast pitch players out there. Their last hope is that Prince Fielder broke into professional baseball late enough to avoid the pressures to dope.

flyer85
07-30-2009, 01:18 PM
so will the fact that most of the premier power hitters of the 2000's have been linked to steroids maybe alter the view that Reds fans have of Dunn? Especially since it seems like the power/lower K/hign BA numbers of a lot of power hitters seem to be PED induced.

flyer85
07-30-2009, 01:26 PM
where does all this leave Albert?

Best career start in MLB history. High power-lowK-highBA. Has the PED body style - thickly muscled with little body fat.

Other top power hitters(Reynolds, Dunn, Howard, Gonzalez) are all high K, lowBA guys ... which is normal.

RedsBaron
07-30-2009, 01:29 PM
where does all this leave Albert?

Best career start in MLB history. High power-lowK-highBA. Has the PED body style - thickly muscled with little body fat.

Other top power hitters(Reynolds, Dunn, Howard, Gonzalez) are all high K, lowBA guys ... which is normal.

Pujols has never reportedly tested positive for steroids. He is either (1) juicing and hasn't yet been caught, or (2) he is the greatest firstbaseman in the history of the game.

oneupper
07-30-2009, 01:29 PM
where does all this leave Albert?

Best career start in MLB history. High power-lowK-highBA. Has the PED body style - thickly muscled with little body fat.

Other top power hitters(Reynolds, Dunn, Howard, Gonzalez) are all high K, lowBA guys ... which is normal.

Give me some of Prince Albert's blood and NO WAY he comes back clean.

flyer85
07-30-2009, 01:31 PM
Pujols has never reportedly tested positive for steroids. He is either (1) juicing and hasn't yet been caught, or (2) he is the greatest firstbaseman in the history of the game.which given the environment of the early 2000s, which is more likely?

edabbs44
07-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Maybe all those great GMs of the 90s and 00s weren't so great after all.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Pujols has never reportedly tested positive for steroids. He is either (1) juicing and hasn't yet been caught, or (2) he is the greatest firstbaseman in the history of the game.

They don't test for HGH.

SunDeck
07-30-2009, 02:32 PM
Give me some of Prince Albert's blood and NO WAY he comes back clean.

It'll certainly come back angry.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Did I miss this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?hp

Most notably Ramirez and Ortiz in 03. I don't know if any of you heard this, since it's a state secret, but 2003 was Ortiz's first season in Boston and they won the World Series the next year (I know! Crazy, right?! There was a three-game playoff defecit and everything! Where is ESPN on this?!?)

seriously, I hate steroids, but the results of the 03 tests were never to be made public, and whoever is responsible should be prosecuted in my opinion.

As Doug said, there's no jurisdiction for prosecution in a case like this. I actually, as much as I would like to have the truth come out, don't care for the leaking of names from an 'anonymous' test, but there's not anything that can be done in a criminal court.

Now, if there was a mutual non-disclosure agreement, as almost certainly there was given the nature of these tests, someone could be sued for tort or breach of contract. Defamation, I would imagine, is something that could be argued.

StillFunkyB
07-30-2009, 03:41 PM
Bud Selig is as much to blame as the players themselves.

I think the media should be all over him as much as they have been on the players. This man allowed these things to happen, and if you say that he was unaware then that's even worse. I honestly don't understand why this man still has a job. He should have been fired years ago.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 03:43 PM
Bud Selig is as much to blame as the players themselves.

I think the media should be all over him as much as they have been on the players. This man allowed these things to happen, and if you say that he was unaware then that's even worse. I honestly don't understand why this man still has a job. He should have been fired years ago.

Selig shares some blame, but the union, owners and MLB were all turning their heads on the issue for several years. I do not single him out when no one else was trying to deal with it.

PuffyPig
07-30-2009, 03:45 PM
As Doug said, there's no jurisdiction for prosecution in a case like this. I actually, as much as I would like to have the truth come out, don't care for the leaking of names from an 'anonymous' test, but there's not anything that can be done in a criminal court.



I can assure you "leaking in public" is a criminal act.

Brutus
07-30-2009, 03:46 PM
I can assure you "leaking in public" is a criminal act.

:beerme:

Raisor
07-30-2009, 06:43 PM
On Sports Center, Papi just gave the "beisbol has been berry berry good to me" speech.

Dude says he has to talk to some people and then he'll talk to the media.

savafan
07-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Big surprise...not really. Ortiz was released by the Twins, and then he suddenly became a star. I always thought it was fishy.

6 seasons with Minnesota

G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
455 1693 1477 215 393 108 3 58 238 4 2 186 339 .266 .348 .461 .809 107 681 35 9 1 20 13

7 seasons with Boston

G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
939 4121 3489 636 1011 258 11 244 786 6 3 576 721 .290 .390 .580 .970 145 2023 78 19 1 36 75

savafan
07-30-2009, 07:20 PM
I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned on this forum or not...

http://bases.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/11/2803032-did-the-red-sox-provide-steroids-training

Craig Calcaterra

Via BostonDirtDogs.com comes former Boston infielder Lou Merloni, claiming on Saturday that the Sox were given steroids training:

"I'm in spring training, and I got an 8:30-9:00 meeting in the morning. I walk into that office, and this happened while I was with the Boston Red Sox before this last regime, I'm sitting in the meeting. There's a doctor up there and he's talking about steroids, and everyone was like 'here we go, we're gonna sit here and get the whole thing -- they're bad for you.' No. He spins it and says 'you know what, if you take steroids and sit on the couch all winter long, you can actually get stronger than someone who works out clean, if you're going to take steroids, one cycle won't hurt you, abusing steroids it will.' He sat there for one hour and told us how to properly use steroids while I'm with the Boston Red Sox, sitting there with the rest of the organization, and after this I said 'what the heck was that?' And everybody on the team was like 'what was that?' And the response we got was 'well, we know guys are taking it, so we want to make sure they're taking it the right way'... Where did that come from? That didn't come from the Players Association."

Merloni has backtracked a bit since Saturday, saying that it was couched more in terms of a warning than anything else, though he says the conversation still happened. Dan Duquette, however, says that's ridiculous:

"It's ridiculous. It's totally unfounded," said Duquette, who was GM from 1994-2002, covering virtually all of Merloni's tenure (1998-2003). "Who was the doctor? Tell me who the doctor is. If there was such a doctor, he wasn't in the employ of the Red Sox. We brought in doctors to educate the players on the major league drug policy at the time, at the recommendation of Major League Baseball. This is so ridiculous I hate to even respond to it."

My first thought is that Lou Merloni has little incentive to make something like this up while Dan Duquette -- and anyone else in a position of power during the height of the steroids days -- has a lot of incentive to call it a lie. That said, I'd be shocked if whatever happened was as obvious as Merloni says it was. No one is that dumb. Not even Dan Duquette.

But even if this thing isn't as big a deal as Merloni makes it out to be, there's no escaping the notion that management knew more about the pervasiveness of steroids during the bad old days than is currently being reported and largely turned a blind eye towards it. Or, as explained in the Mitchell Report and elsewhere, actually exploited it by valuing or devaluing players in part based upon their perception as steroid users.

In the rush to burn the Manny Ramirezes and Alex Rodriguezes at the stake, let us not forget that far more people benefited from player's steroid use than just the players themselves.

redsmetz
12-17-2010, 08:54 PM
Update on this old thread. In September of this year, the 9th Circuit court ruled in favor of the union. The Justice Department indicated they would not appeal that ruling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/sports/baseball/17steroids.html?_r=1&ref=baseball