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Benihana
07-31-2009, 10:24 AM
Time for a new thread.

To begin, it's looking more and more like either Adrian Gonzalez or Victor Martinez will be a Red Sox by 4:00 today.

In other news, Walt turned his pillow over.

Have at it!

Jpup
07-31-2009, 10:27 AM
There aren't even any rumors related to the Reds. Maybe that means we are in for a big day?

BRM
07-31-2009, 10:28 AM
As I said in the other thread, Weathers will likely be gone today. Rhodes might go too. Not much more in Reds country. At least that's all I'm expecting.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 10:29 AM
Weathers today, Arroyo next month. Fine with me.

cumberlandreds
07-31-2009, 10:30 AM
As I said in the other thread, Weathers will likely be gone today. Rhodes might go too. Not much more in Reds country. At least that's all I'm expecting.

That's all I expect too. I really doubt that both or either go.

BRM
07-31-2009, 10:32 AM
There aren't even any rumors related to the Reds. Maybe that means we are in for a big day?

I like your optimism.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 10:32 AM
Time for a new thread.

especially after yesterday's excitement

Benihana
07-31-2009, 10:38 AM
Because Walt has been so disgustingly inactive in his tenure up until now, what is usually a "window dressing" ho-hum move like a Weathers trade should be very carefully scrutinized, so at least we have something to evaluate him on.

In other words, he better wow us with the return for some of these spare parts. Otherwise, at least in my mind, he should be gone. Bring in someone who has more energy and can be more proactive. I never thought I'd say this, but I'd almost prefer Jim Bowden at this point. At least he was always active and kept things interesting. WJ is slowly morphing into DanO- asleep at the wheel.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 10:40 AM
In other words, he better wow us with the return for some of these spare parts. Otherwise, at least in my mind, he should be gone. Bring in someone who has more energy and can be more proactive. I never thought I'd say this, but I'd almost prefer Jim Bowden at this point. At least he was always active and kept things interesting. WJ is slowly morphing into DanO- asleep at the wheel.
:eek: :nono:

BRM
07-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Jim Bowden? You know you are desperate for news when that name starts popping up.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2009, 10:41 AM
I'd like to see a move but it is difficult for me to blame WJ for not finding many willing trade partners for what the Reds have to offer. Fans tend to overvalue their players, and being upset that the Reds aren't landing huge returns for the likes of Arroyo, Harang, Weathers, etc. is evidence of this.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 10:43 AM
I'd like to see a move but it is difficult for me to blame WJ for not finding many willing trade partners for what the Reds have to offer. Fans tend to overvalue their players, and being upset that the Reds aren't landing huge returns for the likes of Arroyo, Harang, Weathers, etc. is evidence of this.

Could he not make a trade that involves all of that "depth" in the minors and find a shortstop? That's my hope anyway.

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 10:43 AM
Time for a new thread.

To begin, it's looking more and more like either Adrian Gonzalez or Victor Martinez will be a Red Sox by 4:00 today.

In other news, Walt turned his pillow over.

Have at it!

While Gonzalez is a great player, the incremental ability above Votto and his much bigger salary makes him a non-essential upgrade.

Votto is better than Martinez and much cheaper. Martinez is basically a first baseaman these days. I wouldn't trade Alonso for him.

Tell Walt to dream about a young slick fielding SS.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 10:44 AM
I may be way out of the loop...but was the Adrian Gonz or V Mart to the Reds comment tongue in cheek or legit? :confused:

BRM
07-31-2009, 10:46 AM
I may be way out of the loop...but was the Adrian Gonz or V Mart to the Reds comment tongue in cheek or legit? :confused:

Which comment? Benihana's post says the Red Sox are looking at those two, not the Reds.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 10:47 AM
Which comment? Benihana's post says the Red Sox are looking at those two, not the Reds.

Weird...Sox does not show up in mine unless I highlight it.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 10:50 AM
Weird...Sox does not show up in mine unless I highlight it.

That was intentional ;)

Trying to keep people on their toes. If Walt's not going to, somebody's gotta do it.

JaxRed
07-31-2009, 10:52 AM
That was intentional ;)

Trying to keep people on their toes. If Walt's not going to, somebody's gotta do it.

OK, that was a good one. Got me.

BRM
07-31-2009, 10:58 AM
That was intentional ;)

Trying to keep people on their toes. If Walt's not going to, somebody's gotta do it.

Can you somehow keep Walt on his toes? Is he even awake yet?

flyer85
07-31-2009, 11:01 AM
Can you somehow keep Walt on his toes? Is he even awake yet?
he's still basking in the glow of the Willy T signing :D

Jpup
07-31-2009, 11:50 AM
How much time left? 5 hours? I think it's at 4 o'clock eastern.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 12:07 PM
Juan C. Rodriguez of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel says the Padres wanted Cameron Maybin and Miller for Bell.

It's pretty simple: Offer the Fish Weathers and Rhodes, plus Drew Stubbs and cash for the same return (Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin). I'd even be willing to add Bailey and take out the cash if necessary.

I'm pretty sure that package is much more attractive than Heath Bell.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 12:14 PM
MLB Network has a coverage all day. It just started if anyone is interested.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 12:30 PM
Washburn to Detroit.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=422&sid=195479

Benihana
07-31-2009, 12:32 PM
Washburn to Detroit.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=422&sid=195479

I hope that helps Arroyo or Harang get to the Yankees.

Yesterday, it was noted that the Yanks were not willing to trade Hughes, Chamberlain, A.Jackson, Montero, or Romine for Washburn- so it's safe to say that would hold for Arroyo/Harang as well.

Arroyo to the Yankees for Kei Igawa and either Zach McAllister or Phil Coke.

or

Harang to the Yankees for Zach McAllister and Phil Coke.

BRM
07-31-2009, 01:07 PM
J.P. is still shooting for the moon.


The Rangers are still pursuing a trade for the biggest name on the trade market, right-hander Roy Halladay, and baseball sources said that money won't be the issue that causes a deal for the former Cy Young winner to fall apart. A source said that the Blue Jays have asked for four players, including two on the big-league roster -- pitchers Derek Holland and Tommy Hunter. First-base prospect Justin Smoak, currently in Triple A, is also a Blue Jays target.

BRM
07-31-2009, 01:31 PM
The Snakes are apparently shopping Doug Davis and Jon Garland.

BRM
07-31-2009, 01:36 PM
From Fay:


Been waiting for a call back from Walt Jocketty since last night. He doesn't usually say much, but he'll usually talk in the general terms about what they're trying to do.

I heard from people outside the organization that the Reds were inclined to keep Arthur Rhodes because he's cheap for next year. I also heard that the Scott Rolen things was alive early yesterday. I'm not sure if it still is. J.P. Ricciardi told Foxsports.com that he would considered keeping Roy Halladay and Rolen.

I think the Reds would move David Weathers if the could. The Dodgers are looking for right-hander reliever. They had a scout at the San Diego series.

Again, I think they'll be to move Aaron Harang or Bronson Arroyo after the deadline. Their contracts are such that they'll get through waivers.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 01:37 PM
Mariners Rejected Offers For Felix Hernandez
By Tim Dierkes [July 31 at 11:14am CST]

The Mariners rejected offers from six different teams for young ace pitcher Felix Hernandez, according to ESPN's Jayson Stark and Peter Gammons. GM Jack Zduriencik admitted he listened, but didn't find anything even worth discussing.

Hernandez, just 23 years old, has a 2.79 ERA in 145.3 innings this year. He's under team control through 2011, but has yet to sign a long-term contract.

Interesting. What would you have offered for King Felix if you're Walt? That would be the type of creative move I'm talking about!

I'd offer any four players in the organization outside of Cueto, Volquez, Votto and Bruce. I might even put Bruce in the deal if they thought the Reds could sign Felix to a deal. I'd try again in the offseason.

Alonso
Frazier
Bailey
Stewart

would have to at least pique their interest, I'd think.

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 01:38 PM
WOW its 3 hours 25 minutes from the deadline, not one single rumour about the Reds today!! I hope its not a sad day in Reds country...

They cant get rid of the over valued junk and cant improve the team either!

I pray its not another 5 years before we see .500 that will make me sick to think about

Jpup
07-31-2009, 01:38 PM
The Dodgers are still interested in Weathers and Rhodes. I expect Weathers to be dealt.

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 01:38 PM
The Snakes are apparently shopping Doug Davis and Jon Garland.

Derrick Hall was just on MLB Network. I got the impression they weren't really shopping them that hard. But I was only half listening. Work keeps getting in the way.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 01:39 PM
Interesting. What would you have offered for King Felix if you're Walt? That would be the type of creative move I'm talking about!

I'd offer any four players in the organization outside of Cueto, Volquez, Votto and Bruce. I might even put Bruce in the deal if they thought the Reds could KF to a deal. I'd try again in the offseason.

Alonso
Frazier
Bailey
Stewart

would have to at least pique their interest. Would you offer more for Hernandez or Halladay?

Hernandez because he is under team control for a while. I doubt those 4 players would get him.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 01:39 PM
Derrick Hall was just on MLB Network. I got the impression they weren't really shopping them that hard. But I was only half listening. Work keeps getting in the way.

Sounds like waiver deals to me, much like Harang and Arroyo.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 01:40 PM
Hernandez because he is under team control for a while. I doubt those 4 players would get him.

Me too, but it could get their attention as a starting point. FWIW, Hernandez is signed through 2011, one more year than Halladay.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 01:41 PM
Interesting. What would you have offered for King Felix if you're Walt? That would be the type of creative move I'm talking about!

I'd offer any four players in the organization outside of Cueto, Volquez, Votto and Bruce. I might even put Bruce in the deal if they thought the Reds could sign Felix to a deal. I'd try again in the offseason.

Alonso
Frazier
Bailey
Stewart

would have to at least pique their interest, I'd think.

For a team that is in buy mode, they would need to get ML talent back.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 01:41 PM
Could he not make a trade that involves all of that "depth" in the minors and find a shortstop? That's my hope anyway.

Yeah, free the salary for moves to start building with over the Winter. Any youngsters they bring in expands the pool of prospects they can deal from over the next couple of years.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 01:42 PM
For a team that is in buy mode, they would need to get ML talent back.

After trading Washburn today, I'm not sure they're in buy mode anymore.

Anyways, I think it's more of something to broach in the offseason. The M's are in semi-contending mode, and King Felix wouldn't do the Reds much good this season anyhow.

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 01:46 PM
After trading Washburn today, I'm not sure they're in buy mode anymore.

Anyways, I think it's more of something to broach in the offseason. The M's are in semi-contending mode, and King Felix wouldn't do the Reds much good this season anyhow.

Good point. Price is probably less in the offseason when the M's aren't in/or don't think they're in a race.

IslandRed
07-31-2009, 01:49 PM
It's pretty simple: Offer the Fish Weathers and Rhodes, plus Drew Stubbs and cash for the same return (Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin). I'd even be willing to add Bailey and take out the cash if necessary.

I'm pretty sure that package is much more attractive than Heath Bell.

The Marlins have middle relief. They want a closer.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 01:51 PM
The Snakes are apparently shopping Doug Davis and Jon Garland.
Those two should interest contenders more than Arroyo/Harang.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 01:51 PM
The Marlins have middle relief. They want a closer.

And I'm not sure Florida wants to re-acquire a guy they acquired last year at this time.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 01:53 PM
Those two should interest contenders more than Arroyo/Harang.

Absolutely. I was going to say, trade *for* Davis, and then see if you can't dump Arroyo in August.

Obviously, Davis is only one stone in the massive rebuilding of the rotation that needs to be undertaken; but he's pretty solid.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 01:56 PM
Me too, but it could get their attention as a starting point. FWIW, Hernandez is signed through 2011, one more year than Halladay.

Yeah, but Felix might consider an extension, so there's portential, something that does not seem to be there with Halladay and his intension to at least test the Free Agent market. If you can extend Halladay beyond 2010, I'm all for it, but I'd be pretty sure of my chances before taking the risk.

Highlifeman21
07-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Interesting. What would you have offered for King Felix if you're Walt? That would be the type of creative move I'm talking about!

I'd offer any four players in the organization outside of Cueto, Volquez, Votto and Bruce. I might even put Bruce in the deal if they thought the Reds could sign Felix to a deal. I'd try again in the offseason.

Alonso
Frazier
Bailey
Stewart

would have to at least pique their interest, I'd think.

For King Felix?

My 1st offer would be:

Volquez
Alonso
Bailey
Stubbs

My 2nd offer would be:
Volquez
Bruce
Alonso
Bailey

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 01:59 PM
Felix is even less likely to come to Cincy than Halladay.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:00 PM
Felix is even less likely to come to Cincy than Halladay.

He doesn't have a no-trade.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 02:01 PM
He doesn't have a no-trade.

The Mariners have no need (or probably desire) to trade him. That's a much bigger hurdle than a no-trade.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:01 PM
The Marlins have middle relief. They want a closer.

So give 'em Cordero, and pay most of the money remaining on his deal. If the Reds were serious about building a core to compete for the next 5 years, they'd do it.

Cordero > Bell

Most of us are in agreement that the roster as it stands will most likely not contend next year, so what's the point of having Cordero? The money he's owed is a sunk cost. Might as well convert him into two very valuable pieces for 2011-2015. Plus, I think they'd help significantly as soon as next year.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:03 PM
The Mariners have no need (or probably desire) to trade him. That's a much bigger hurdle than a no-trade.

They might move him- especially at the deadline next year if they aren't in contention. It would be akin to this year's Halladay and Lee.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:03 PM
For King Felix?

My 1st offer would be:

Volquez
Alonso
Bailey
Stubbs

My 2nd offer would be:
Volquez
Bruce
Alonso
Bailey

I wouldn't include Volquez. It is an upgrade, but replacing Volquez with Felix isn't what they should be doing. They should be adding to Volquez and Cueto.

The ballsy move would be to check your emotions at the door structure a trade centered around Votto for Felix. Alonso replaces Votto in a year.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:04 PM
So give 'em Cordero, and pay most of the money remaining on his deal. If the Reds were serious about building a core to compete for the next 5 years, they'd do it.

Cordero > Bell

Most of roughly $28MM? That would be a debacle.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 02:06 PM
Felix is even less likely to come to Cincy than Halladay.

I don't think either comes here. I'm just saying anyone that does come here needs at least the possibility of more than a one year future as a Red or it's a waste of time since we cannot be considered contenders for next year. Save the $$$$/talent resources for someone who can help you win when you're ready.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:06 PM
Most of roughly $28MM? That would be a debacle.

Yep. Debacle on the surface but if nothing else, it's a creative and innovative way to transform this roster into one that can contend in the future. Two things that have been long absent in this organization.

See my logic in the previous post.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:08 PM
I don't think either comes here. I'm just saying anyone that does come here needs at least the possibility of more than a one year future as a Red or it's a waste of time since we cannot be considered contenders for next year. Save the $$$$/talent resources for someone who can help you win when you're ready.

If the Reds don't plan on being ready to win in 2011, what's the point of caring at all?

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:11 PM
Yep. Debacle on the surface but if nothing else, it's a creative and innovative way to transform this roster into one that can contend in the future. Two things that have been long absent in this organization.

See my logic in the previous post.

I would want better than those guys if I was technically buying them for $20+MM and Cordero.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 02:17 PM
If the Reds don't plan on being ready to win in 2011, what's the point of caring at all?

Hey, if the Reds were able to add a couple of solid pieces, a few of the younger guys progress over the next year and I thought an ace pitcher could put me into some sort of contention for 2011, I'd say sure, make a deal like a rental like Halladay. For next year though, it makes no sense unless they're ready to get really busy spending a bunch of money and acquiring talent over the next 6-9 months, which I don't expect.

I have no problem with a rental, but only when it helps you contend. There will be one-year starters available at the deadline next year too.

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 02:18 PM
Absolutely. I was going to say, trade *for* Davis, and then see if you can't dump Arroyo in August.

Obviously, Davis is only one stone in the massive rebuilding of the rotation that needs to be undertaken; but he's pretty solid.

Davis is good, but a FA after this season. If you want him, bid for him as a FA, don't waste trading chips to help yourself this year.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:21 PM
SI.com's Jon Heyman reports the Red Sox are still talking with the Padres about acquiring slugger Adrian Gonzalez.

Clay Buccholz, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson are all involved in the deal. The Padres are also asking for Ryan Westmoreland and Lars Anderson. It's a massive price, but the Red Sox knew what they were getting into when they first struck up discussions for the 27-year-old Gonzalez. One wonders, though, what Boston would do with the newly acquired Adam LaRoche.

Look at those names being tossed around on the Bosox side.

If you heard that Walt was getting involved by offering up Votto, would you think he is nuts?

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 02:24 PM
The Twins just got Cabrera from the A's. Minor league SS in return.

Sure wish there was something Reds related to report.

TheNext44
07-31-2009, 02:25 PM
I wouldn't include Volquez. It is an upgrade, but replacing Volquez with Felix isn't what they should be doing. They should be adding to Volquez and Cueto.

The ballsy move would be to check your emotions at the door structure a trade centered around Votto for Felix. Alonso replaces Votto in a year.

Completely agree.

Key career numbers for Edinson and Felix:

EV:
.09 HR/9
8.5 K/9
1.84 K/BB

FH:
.08 HR/9
8.1 K/9
2.87 K/BB

Basically the same pitcher, except Edinson walks a few more hitters, but K's a few more too. And his HR rate is about the same when he pitches in a HR friendly park while Felix pitches in a pitchers park.

I would have no problem trading Votto for Felix, and I think it is something that might get the Mariners interested.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 02:30 PM
Look at those names being tossed around on the Bosox side.

If you heard that Walt was getting involved by offering up Votto, would you think he is nuts?

I'd have no problem with Walt offering a package of Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Volquez if I thought, a) I would still have the kind of roster left the Red Sox will if they deal the hinted package for Gonzalez and b) it would get me closer to a pennant

It's all realtive. The Red sox have the talent to spare, although that deal does look extreme. The Reds have prospects to spare, but have to be discerning about which ones.

Redmachine2003
07-31-2009, 02:31 PM
The shape this team is in I wouldn't make a trade that included that many good prospects because it wouldn't help there are to many holes on this team and it doesn't have the money to keep these players. The Reds need to move contracts and dead weight, collect prospects, and give the young kids a chance. This being stuck in the middle every year is getting old.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:33 PM
I'd have no problem with Walt offering a package of Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Volquez if I thought, a) I would still have the kind of roster left the Red Sox will if they deal the hinted package for Gonzalez and b) it would get me closer to a pennant

It's all realtive. The Red sox have the talent to spare, although that deal does look extreme. The Reds have prospects to spare, but have to be discerning about which ones.

No...offering up Votto to the Sox for those guys.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 02:35 PM
No...offering up Votto to the Sox for those guys.

Now THAT I would do.

BRM
07-31-2009, 02:43 PM
The Brewers acquired Claudio Vargas from the Dodgers in exchange for Vinny Rottino.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 02:47 PM
The Brewers acquired Claudio Vargas from the Dodgers in exchange for Vinny Rottino.now that is some real dumpster diving

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 02:50 PM
That would solve two problems and open up one. But I'd grind my teeth and do it.

Casual fans and WLW would probably explode, however.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:55 PM
MLBTR saying VMart to Boston (as per Nightengale)

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 02:56 PM
Boston's certainly been active. Perhaps the Yankees want to keep up with the Epsteins?

Highlifeman21
07-31-2009, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't include Volquez. It is an upgrade, but replacing Volquez with Felix isn't what they should be doing. They should be adding to Volquez and Cueto.

The ballsy move would be to check your emotions at the door structure a trade centered around Votto for Felix. Alonso replaces Votto in a year.

So you'd take a gamble that Alonso can duplicate or better Votto's numbers?

BRM
07-31-2009, 02:57 PM
Heyman is reporting the Marlins are close to acquiring Nick Johnson.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 02:58 PM
So you'd take a gamble that Alonso can duplicate or better Votto's numbers?

I potentially take the gamble that Felix and Alonso outperform Votto and Arroyo/Homer/whoever Felix replaces.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 02:58 PM
That would solve two problems and open up one. But I'd grind my teeth and do it.

Casual fans and WLW would probably explode, however.

I love Joey, but if the Red Sox offered me Clay Buccholz, Jed Lowrie, Justin Masterson and either Ryan Westmoreland or Lars Anderson, I'd do it - especially if I could expand/work the deal to include Adam LaRoche.

I could live with LaRoche for a year and hope to have an Alonso/Frazier platoon ready by 2011.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:59 PM
Hey, if the Reds were able to add a couple of solid pieces, a few of the younger guys progress over the next year and I thought an ace pitcher could put me into some sort of contention for 2011, I'd say sure, make a deal like a rental like Halladay. For next year though, it makes no sense unless they're ready to get really busy spending a bunch of money and acquiring talent over the next 6-9 months, which I don't expect.

I have no problem with a rental, but only when it helps you contend. There will be one-year starters available at the deadline next year too.

Acquiring an ace makes you a contender, period.

If the Reds wait until next year's deadline to see what's available, they won't be in contention (for next year) so it won't matter.

Rinse, lather, repeat. Your Cincinnati Reds of the last decade.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2009, 02:59 PM
The Twins just got Cabrera from the A's. Minor league SS in return.

Sure wish there was something Reds related to report.

Kind of funny.... but a few years ago I took the prospect in question, Tyler Ladendorf, in the 2nd round of the Redszone mock draft, and I was playing the role of Billy Beane in the draft. 'Bout time I got something right!

Benihana
07-31-2009, 02:59 PM
I love Joey, but if the Red Sox offered me Clay Buccholz, Jed Lowrie, Justin Masterson and either Ryan Westmoreland or Lars Anderson, I'd do it - especially if I could expand/work the deal to include Adam LaRoche.

I could live with LaRoche for a year and hope to have an Alonxo/Frazier platoon ready by 2011.

Wouldn't Anderson be redundant with Alonso? And you want to acquire Adam LaRoche??

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:01 PM
Is Walt's phone working? Just curious.

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 03:01 PM
Red Sox about to get Victor Martinez.. 2 hours to go ZERO about the Reds..

Red Sox To Acquire Victor Martinez
By Tim Dierkes [July 31 at 12:55pm CST]
USA Today's Bob Nightengale via Twitter: the Red Sox are about to acquire Victor Martinez from the Indians.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 03:04 PM
Because Walt has been so disgustingly inactive in his tenure up until now, what is usually a "window dressing" ho-hum move like a Weathers trade should be very carefully scrutinized, so at least we have something to evaluate him on.


Don't really agree with this. I don't think we as fans should expect that much in return for Weathers.. As I said in the other thread, at best we should get what the Indians got for Bentancourt. Bentancourt is a lot younger (34).
I think the salaries are comparable, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

I know frustration has reached a boiling point, but I think we all (including me) WAY overestimated the interest that Harang and Arroyo had on the open market.

Reds4Life
07-31-2009, 03:04 PM
I don't expect the Reds to do anything at this point.

Somethings never change.

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2009, 03:06 PM
Red Sox about to get Victor Martinez.. 2 hours to go ZERO about the Reds..

Red Sox To Acquire Victor Martinez
By Tim Dierkes [July 31 at 12:55pm CST]
USA Today's Bob Nightengale via Twitter: the Red Sox are about to acquire Victor Martinez from the Indians.

Huge move for Sox

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:08 PM
Don't really agree with this. I don't think we as fans should expect that much in return for Weathers.. As I said in the other thread, at best we should get what the Indians got for Bentancourt. Bentancourt is a lot younger (34).
I think the salaries are comparable, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

So then what the hell is the point of Walt's job? What has he done?


I know frustration has reached a boiling point, but I think we all (including me) WAY overestimated the interest that Harang and Arroyo had on the open market.
I don't think most people expected to get much for Arroyo. That was a long time coming.

Harang, on the other hand, completely crapped the bed in the last three weeks. I didn't see that one coming.

The irony is that Arroyo may now be more attractive than Harang.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 03:09 PM
Red Sox would likely excerise his option next season, too, making them stronger in the future as well. Depending on who they gave up, could be a masterful stroke by Theo, Boy Genius.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 03:09 PM
Absolutely. I was going to say, trade *for* Davis, and then see if you can't dump Arroyo in August.

Obviously, Davis is only one stone in the massive rebuilding of the rotation that needs to be undertaken; but he's pretty solid.

Yep, smart idea if the Reds could buy Davis low. I have not followed him this year or know his salary, so maybe I'm off base, but I like what you are thinking.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 03:10 PM
Davis is a free agent next season. It makes little sense to trade for him now if you could simply sign him in three months. (Which would be okay.)

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 03:11 PM
Wouldn't Anderson be redundant with Alonso? And you want to acquire Adam LaRoche??

Whoops, thought Anderson was an OF. LaRoche only as astopgap because I don't think Alonso/Frazier would be ready coming out of ST. And I'm not necessarily talking about that package, just that kind of package. Just saying I don't mind dealing our young talent like Votto or Cueto, I just want to solidify multiple areas if I do.

As far as redundant with Alonso though, I'd add young talent at any position. It just deepens the pool of talent to use in other deals.

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 03:11 PM
i really wish Mark Cuban would buy the Reds give fans some hope instead of watching every trade deadline other teams get what they want and Reds fans getting ZERO

Reds4Life
07-31-2009, 03:11 PM
The irony is that Arroyo may now be more attractive than Harang.

Or maybe Arroyo talking about his name in relation to the 2003 banned substances list killed whatever trade value he had left.

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:11 PM
The silence is deafening.

reds44
07-31-2009, 03:15 PM
This is awful.

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2009, 03:16 PM
i really wish Mark Cuban would buy the Reds give fans some hope instead of watching every trade deadline other teams get what they want and Reds fans getting ZERO

I was thinking the same the other day.. but i'd be scared he'd trade for Dirk and stick him at catcher.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 03:16 PM
Look at those names being tossed around on the Bosox side.

If you heard that Walt was getting involved by offering up Votto, would you think he is nuts?

Not too familiar with the prospects, outside of Buchholtz, but heck yea, I would be open to trading Votto for a king's ransom like that and then hoping Alosono is the real deal.

I like your thinking, trade Votto and wait on Alonso, instead of trading Alonso.

Heck, we could probably get the Sox to toss in LaRoche as a bridge until Alonso is ready..

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2009, 03:18 PM
Dodgers traded Varges to the BrewCrew.. Could it get "Stormy" in Southern California?

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 03:18 PM
Not too familiar with the prospects, outside of Buchholtz, but heck yea, I would be open to trading Votto for a king's ransom like that and then hoping Alosono is the real deal.

I like your thinking, trade Votto and wait on Alonso, instead of trading Alonso.

Heck, we could probably get the Sox to toss in LaRoche as a bridge until Alonso is ready..

those Boston Prospects are probaly going to the Indians when the offically announce the deal with Cleveland. so its mute point to think about it anyways

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 03:19 PM
Again, I ask, what did you guys expect????? I mean seriously???? Did you really think Walt was going to do anything?

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 03:20 PM
I'm not as pessimistic as many in here...many times trades pop up out of nowhere. I'm still expecting something.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 03:22 PM
those Boston Prospects are probaly going to the Indians when the offically announce the deal with Cleveland. so its mute point to think about it anyways

the Reds aren't going to doing anything (much less anything creative) and they never were. that makes the last 72 hours of this board's life moot, other than the lively discussion value. :D

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 03:22 PM
If many us are pessimistic at this point, how many casual fans have the Reds flushed in the last week by their play and FO inactivity?

And don't tell me to look at the big picture, I've been looking at it for years and it only seems to get worse.

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2009, 03:24 PM
Again, I ask, what did you guys expect????? I mean seriously???? Did you really think Walt was going to do anything?

Yes.. I did. Walt said he'd be looking at big names in the offseason.. Then came up flat.. then we were told their is payroll flexiblity and room to add to it. Then we hear talks of Scott Rolen, Roy Halleday, and being interested in Matt Holliday. You tell me?

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 03:24 PM
Again, I ask, what did you guys expect????? I mean seriously???? Did you really think Walt was going to do anything?

If anything happens, I expect something meaningless in the scheme of things like EdE for Rolen or Weathers for chaff. I really expect nothing though.

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 03:25 PM
If anything happens, I expect something meaningless in the scheme of things like EdE for Rolen of Weathers for chaff. I really expect nothing though.

I expect that it is pretty hard to trade with yourself.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:25 PM
As soon as they'd acquired Balentien, I knew no MLB talent was going to be acquired.

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 03:27 PM
What also bugs me is that most of the trades for goods players are ending up on the big market teams.. I am still shocked the Yankees are silent!! How is that for parity!
I wonder if anybody in the media will report on that.

Also To accept that a constant rebuilding and spinning wheels going no where is ok by fans bugs me too.. we should demand more from our favorite teams ownership.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:28 PM
What also bugs me is that most of the trades for goods players are ending up on the big market teams.. I am still shocked the Yankees are silent!! How is that for parity!
I wonder if anybody in the media will report on that.

Also To accept that a constant rebuilding and spinning wheels going no where is ok by fans bugs me too.. we should demand more from our favorite teams ownership.

The only thing you can do is vote with your pocketbook. Honestly, if by now your heart, gut, and skin isn't hardened by following the Reds, I'd suggest you find another team.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 03:28 PM
Yes.. I did. Walt said he'd be looking at big names in the offseason.. Then came up flat.. then we were told their is payroll flexiblity and room to add to it. Then we hear talks of Scott Rolen, Roy Halleday, and being interested in Matt Holliday. You tell me?

Did you really think any of those players were going to be landed? Other than the Rolen talks, did you take any of those deals seriously?

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:29 PM
Looks like the Sox got VMart without giving up Buchholz or Bard.

Gee, I wish the Reds could make moves like that.

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 03:31 PM
Looks like the Sox got VMart without giving up Buchholz or Bard.

Gee, I wish the Reds could make moves like that.

And How in the world did they trade him if those 2 were not invovled?? sounds like a conspiracy

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:32 PM
And How in the world did they trade him if those 2 were not invovled?? sounds like a conspiracy

Or the realization that Victor's limited to AL teams.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 03:32 PM
So then what the hell is the point of Walt's job? What has he done?


It's his job to try to unload bad contracts, I agree. but it takes two to tango.

He doesn't have to trade Weathers or Rhodes. If he's only being offered crap, he should not trade them so he doesn't get a reputation like the pirates for taking the best offer, even if it's crap.

Not a huge fan of Walt myself. I give him a C overall since he's arrived.

At the same time, I don't think there's much room to move. A lot of money tied up in Harang, Cordero, AGon, Phillips, and Arroyo. Not easy players to move in this market.

Yep, he's paid to deal with that problem, but we need to be a little bit realistic here.







I don't think most people expected to get much for Arroyo. That was a long time coming.


Yep, what team would really want Arroyo or Harang now? that's the point.
If they were only making 2-3 million year, then yes. but they are being paid more than much better pitchers on the market.

Hopefully Harang can rebound next year (an August rebound would be better of course)

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:33 PM
And How in the world did they trade him if those 2 were not invovled?? sounds like a conspiracy

No, it sounds like a real GM.

Cleveland was desperate to rid themselves of VMart after they traded Lee.

As I said repeatedly yesterday, I'd suspect Todd Frazier and Travis Wood would have been enough to get it done. Oh well.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:34 PM
No, it sounds like a real GM.

Cleveland was desperate to rid themselves of VMart after they traded Lee.

As I said repeatedly yesterday, I'd suspect Todd Frazier and Travis Wood would have been enough to get it done. Oh well.

That's a lot to pay for a DH.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:37 PM
That's a lot to pay for a DH.

Not too much to pay for a 1B that bats .300 and hits 25 HRs, and allows you to try Votto in LF so that you can have the organizational flexibility to make an informed decision on the future of both Votto and Alonso. Not to mention, he can play C if Hanigan falters.

Oh yeah, and you might be able to contend in 2010. Imagine that!

traderumor
07-31-2009, 03:38 PM
My goodness, the Indians are about as close as you can get to firesale. About all that is left from what once looked like a promising core group has devolved into Sizemore and Hafner.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:39 PM
Not too much to pay for a 1B that bats .300 and hits 25 HRs, and allows you to try Votto in LF so that you can have organizational flexibility to make an informed decision on the future of both Votto and Alonso.

Oh yeah, and you might be able to contend in 2010. Imagine that!

Martinez would help obviously with the bat, but I see no reason right now to move Votto off first. There are a number of ways to fix the offense without surrendering high-level prospects.

Nugget
07-31-2009, 03:41 PM
I potentially take the gamble that Felix and Alonso outperform Votto and Arroyo/Homer/whoever Felix replaces.

I don't think the Mariners would be looking at Votto (they have enough first basemen outfielders). What you may have to do if the mariners are not in contention is probably look at something that involves much of the minor league pitching talent and maybe Stubbs/Heisey.

RedsBaron
07-31-2009, 03:45 PM
My goodness, the Indians are about as close as you can get to firesale. About all that is left from what once looked like a promising core group has devolved into Sizemore and Hafner.

If the Tribe wants to get rid of Sizemore I'd take him. ;)

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:47 PM
It's his job to try to unload bad contracts, I agree. but it takes two to tango.

He doesn't have to trade Weathers or Rhodes. If he's only being offered crap, he should not trade them so he doesn't get a reputation like the pirates for taking the best offer, even if it's crap.

Not a huge fan of Walt myself. I give him a C overall since he's arrived.

At the same time, I don't think there's much room to move. A lot of money tied up in Harang, Cordero, AGon, Phillips, and Arroyo. Not easy players to move in this market.

Yep, he's paid to deal with that problem, but we need to be a little bit realistic here.


Disagree. You clearly have been successfully recalibrated to Reds-appropriate expectations.

I could understand and forgive the lack of movement this week had Jocketty not been asleep at the wheel for the 14 months leading up to it. His ridiculous inaction since taking over the job has been mind-numbing.

He acquired Nick Masset and signed Arthur Rhodes. Woo hoo! He also signed Taveras, Hairston, and Lincoln to multimillion dollar contracts.

I give him a D- since taking over. He's done absolutely nothing.

(only DanO gets an F)

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 03:48 PM
It's his job to try to unload bad contracts, I agree. but it takes two to tango.

He doesn't have to trade Weathers or Rhodes. If he's only being offered crap, he should not trade them so he doesn't get a reputation like the pirates for taking the best offer, even if it's crap.

Not a huge fan of Walt myself. I give him a C overall since he's arrived.

At the same time, I don't think there's much room to move. A lot of money tied up in Harang, Cordero, AGon, Phillips, and Arroyo. Not easy players to move in this market.

Yep, he's paid to deal with that problem, but we need to be a little bit realistic here.

Yep, what team would really want Arroyo or Harang now? that's the point.
If they were only making 2-3 million year, then yes. but they are being paid more than much better pitchers on the market.

Hopefully Harang can rebound next year (an August rebound would be better of course)

Oh I agree it wouldn't be easy, just don't know if they tried hard enough. If it comes right down to it, I'd pay the rest of 09 (they're on the hook for it anyway) to avoid paying 2010. Maybe that isn't doable either. That's the risk you run giving LTC's.

I won't complain that much, but Arroyo should never have been extended. Over-valuing guys like BA (or AGon or WillyT) dooms franchises like the Reds.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:48 PM
Martinez would help obviously with the bat, but I see no reason right now to move Votto off first. There are a number of ways to fix the offense without surrendering high-level prospects.

I'd love to hear your very specific suggestions. (And that goes for the whole team, not just the offense.)

cincrazy
07-31-2009, 03:49 PM
Not too much to pay for a 1B that bats .300 and hits 25 HRs, and allows you to try Votto in LF so that you can have the organizational flexibility to make an informed decision on the future of both Votto and Alonso. Not to mention, he can play C if Hanigan falters.

Oh yeah, and you might be able to contend in 2010. Imagine that!

I'm all for going out and acquiring talent, but Victor Martinez just isn't what this team needs. He's not a catcher in the NL, and the Reds absolutely do not need a first baseman. I don't understand wanting to move Votto to left, for Martinez, Alonso, or anyone. The guy is a very good defensive first baseman. There's no need to move him. Instead of trying to solve our LF problem by moving him to left, we should actually go and get an actual, real life, breathing left fielder.

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Do the Indians throw in the 30,000 V-Mart bobbleheads they were going to give out tomorrow too?

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Heyman update on the VMart trade.


The deal is believed to include right-hander Justin Masterson and another pitcher. MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo says the other player involved is lefty prospect Nick Hagadone.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 03:53 PM
Is Walt's phone working? Just curious.if it wasn't for a little bad luck the Reds were this close to winning.

WMR
07-31-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm utterly amazed that people are still willing to give Walt or Castellini or the Reds the benefit of the doubt going on one and a half YEARS of inaction.

Sports are a results oriented business and the Reds have earned a big fat F.

Are the people who want to kiss Walt on the cheek and congratulate him for trying his best still going down to the park and spending their hard-earned money on the Reds? Just curious.

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:54 PM
if it wasn't for a little bad luck the Reds were this close to winning.

If only everyone had just played better. Or just tried harder.

Benihana
07-31-2009, 03:55 PM
Instead of trying to solve our LF problem by moving him to left, we should actually go and get an actual, real life, breathing left fielder.

I'd be fine with that also.

But Castellini killed the Dye deal, Matt Holliday got traded to the Cardinals, and good luck with this regime in FA.

So what would you suggest?

(I'd still like to trade Alonso for Escobar in the offseason. But I doubt Walt's creative enough for that.)

cincrazy
07-31-2009, 03:56 PM
I'd be fine with that also.

But Castellini killed the Dye deal, Matt Holliday got traded to the Cardinals, and good luck with this regime in FA.

So what would you suggest?

(I'd still like to trade Alonso for Escobar in the offseason. But I doubt Walt's creative enough for that.)

I'd suggest folding up operations and not even bothering to run a team out there :thumbup:.

But that's just me.

They should have acquired Dye. And I would support an Alonso for Escobar deal.

But fact of the matter is, nothing is going to happen. Nobody wants our crappy regular players, and we're not giving up any young "talent." So we're just going to sit on our hands.

I'm glad the losing stopped "now" when we fired Wayne. CLEARLY he was the problem.

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:56 PM
The Dodgers are reportedly looking at acquiring Adrian Gonzalez and Heath Bell. The Angels are also "in on" Bell.

MississippiRed
07-31-2009, 03:57 PM
If the Tribe wants to get rid of Sizemore I'd take him. ;)

This is what I am thinking, also. Offer Arroyo!

flyer85
07-31-2009, 03:57 PM
Or just tried harder.
scrappiness cannot be overrated.

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
The Dodgers are reportedly looking at acquiring Adrian Gonzalez and Heath Bell. The Angels are also "in on" Bell.

Harold Reynolds is tearing this deal apart. Reportedly James Loney would be part of the deal.

BRM
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
Rumor has it Walt just woke up from his afternoon nap. More to come...

RedLegSuperStar
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
I wonder if Bronson coming out about PEDs hurt what minimal value he had...

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
He acquired Nick Masset and signed Arthur Rhodes. Woo hoo! He also signed Taveras, Hairston, and Lincoln to multimillion dollar contracts.

I give him a D- since taking over. He's done absolutely nothing.

(only DanO gets an F)

Fair cricisim.

I don't think Lincoln was a bad deal. He had a reasonable chance of performing well (unlike Taveras) and just got hurt. 2 out of the 3 vet relievers Walt signed have done well.

He also shored up the catching and dumped Freel in the process.

We had a lot of injuries this season, which is not a complete excuse.

Assembling a good bullpen, upgrading the OF depth without spending much money (Wlad, Gomes) are positives.

Yes, I have adjusted my expectations. Cast doesn't want to spend money now apparently. No GM in baseball is going to be able to move those 5 big contracts without eating cash.. Apparently Cast isn't willing to do that either.
Cast probably still has indigestion from eating Hat, Castro, Stanton, Comier, etc.

Reds4Life
07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
1 hour left, and still a whole lot of nothing.

The losing stops now!

blumj
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
I wonder if Bronson coming out about PEDs hurt what minimal value he had...

No, nobody would care about anything he said.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
Rumor has it Walt just woke up from his afternoon nap. More to come...

Interesting...tell us more!

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
This just in: The Reds are looking at storing fruit in the outfield bleachers for the rest of the season.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
Iteresting...tell us more!

Hopefully he's checking his messages.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
This just in: The Reds are looking at storing fruit in the outfield bleachers for the rest of the season.

Should be plenty of room out there.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
This just in: The Reds are looking at storing fruit in the outfield bleachers for the rest of the season.

:beerme:

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
(I'd still like to trade Alonso for Escobar in the
offseason. But I doubt Walt's creative enough for that.)

Most of us would love to do that, but why would Atlanta blow a hole in their team at SS just for Alonso? It doesn't make sense from Atl's point of view. They are trying to win now, not collect prospects.

If Escobar was in Pittsburg, that might work though.

rotnoid
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Hopefully he's checking his messages.

Probably has to update his facebook status first. There's still an hour to go.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

Sign Beltre in the offseason

Sign Doug Davis in the offseason.

All deals within the realm of possibility and affordable. Which means they'd never happen in a million years.

CTA513
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
Doesn't Sizemore need surgery on his elbow?

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
Interesting...tell us more!


After Walt woke up, he realized was out of toothpaste so he traded a bobblehead to a beat writer for a tube of Colgate.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:05 PM
OBM made the right choice when he decided to go bowling today. He would have been incredibly bored waiting on Reds news.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

Sign Beltre in the offseason

Sign Doug Davis in the offseason.

All deals within the realm of possibility and affordable. Which means they'd never happen in a million years.

Severely doubt that would get it done. Severely.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

Sign Beltre in the offseason

Sign Doug Davis in the offseason.

All deals within the realm of possibility and affordable. Which means they'd never happen in a million years.

Adding those 3 is going to cost a chunk of change.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
red sox infield is getting crowded.

I wonder where that leaves Ortiz, Lowell and LaRoche. Although I have a good idea.

The rich getting considerably richer.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Doesn't Sizemore need surgery on his elbow?

I don't know. If it makes acquiring him cheaper, even better. It's not like he's a pitcher.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
red sox infield is getting crowded.

I wonder where that leaves Ortiz, Lowell and LaRoche. Although I have a good idea.

The rich getting considerably richer.

Boston is looking to deal LaRoche to Atlanta.

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
Should be plenty of room out there.

Thought you meant you heard a deal was imminent -shoulda known better.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

.

I kind of doubt the Indians are going to trade Sizemore though.

If the Reds had Sizemore, I would not accept that deal.
When Sizemore is healthy, he's an impact player. None of those prospects are going to be impact players. Heck, none of them might even make it to the big leagues.

The Tribe is looking for pitching. I suspect they'd ask for Ceuto, maybe Homer, maybe some of the young relievers. I know Wood is a pitcher, but I doubt he has enough sex appeal to interest the tribe.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
Adding those 3 is going to cost a chunk of change.

Each will cost less than either Arroyo or Harang next season.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
Thought you meant you heard a deal was imminent -shoulda known better.

Sorry. Snark is all I got today.

cincrazy
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
Fair cricisim.

I don't think Lincoln was a bad deal. He had a reasonable chance of performing well (unlike Taveras) and just got hurt. 2 out of the 3 vet relievers Walt signed have done well.

He also shored up the catching and dumped Freel in the process.

We had a lot of injuries this season, which is not a complete excuse.

Assembling a good bullpen, upgrading the OF depth without spending much money (Wlad, Gomes) are positives.

Yes, I have adjusted my expectations. Cast doesn't want to spend money now apparently. No GM in baseball is going to be able to move those 5 big contracts without eating cash.. Apparently Cast isn't willing to do that either.
Cast probably still has indigestion from eating Hat, Castro, Stanton, Comier, etc.

Truthfully, I can' be that hard on Walt. This isn't Walt's problem, IMO. It goes straight to Cast. and his checkbook.

However, the Lincoln move was a disaster. The guy pitched like crap the second half of last season, and it was clear he was heading for a free fall. So we sign him to a two year deal?

He did well with the catching situation, but there is NO depth in the outfield. The outfield is embarrassing and absolutely horrific. Gomes was a decent pickup, but he shouldn't be starting. It remains to be seen what we get with Wlad, so I can't praise that move.

If the team was truly content on not contending this year and doing nothing to better their odds of winning, they should have traded Harang and Arroyo while they still had value. Now they have practically no value, and this franchise is stuck in the muck.

I give Walt an incomplete since taking the job, because it remains to be seen how he could perform with an actual ownership behind him.

I give Bob an F-, and his words ring hollow to me now.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
I can't wait to hear the excuse now, "They all wanted us to pay the contract of our top guys to play for them and they wanted all of our depth in the minor leagues. Hey, we still have waivers. We might do something there, maybe a right handed bat."

If he makes it to 4 o'clock and doesn't do something to improve the Reds, he has to be replaced. He did nothing last year, he did nothing in the offseason, and he has done nothing at this deadline. The gigs up, it's time for him to go.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
I kind of doubt the Indians are going to trade Sizemore though.

If the Reds had Sizemore, I would not accept that deal.
When Sizemore is healthy, he's an impact player. None of those prospects are going to be impact players. Heck, none of them might even make it to the big leagues.

The Tribe is looking for pitching. I suspect they'd ask for Ceuto, maybe Homer, maybe some of the young relievers. I know Wood is a pitcher, but I doubt he has enough sex appeal to interest the tribe.

Cueto for Sizemore was my original idea, btw. But I was sure to hear the chorus for that one.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

Sign Beltre in the offseason

Sign Doug Davis in the offseason.

All deals within the realm of possibility and affordable. Which means they'd never happen in a million years.
No shortstop?? :(

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:09 PM
Boston is looking to deal LaRoche to Atlanta.is he really much different than Kotchman? (maybe a little more power)

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:09 PM
Cueto for Sizemore was my original idea, btw. But I was sure to hear the chorus for that one.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA.

So all your complaining about our rotation, and you want to trade our best (or 2nd best) pitcher. Absolutely classic.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 04:09 PM
Each will cost less than either Arroyo or Harang next season.

And you are dumping Arroyos and Harangs 2010 contracts entirely on another team?

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:11 PM
Cueto for Sizemore was my original idea, btw. But I was sure to hear the chorus for that one.

I'd trade Cueto for Sizemore if it were a straight up deal. How long does Sizemore have on his contract?

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:11 PM
No shortstop?? :(

Gotta tell ya. I don't sweat the SS stuff too much. They can improve the offense a lot from a bunch of other positions for a lot less. Janish is an outstanding defensive SS.

What the Reds *really* can't afford is what they got out of CF, RF, and 3rd this season. That was just abysmal.

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 04:11 PM
Not too much to pay for a 1B that bats .300 and hits 25 HRs, and allows you to try Votto in LF so that you can have the organizational flexibility to make an informed decision on the future of both Votto and Alonso. Not to mention, he can play C if Hanigan falters.

Oh yeah, and you might be able to contend in 2010. Imagine that!

Martinez is not a .300, 25 HR guy. He may be a .275 15-20 HR guy.

He's a terrible target as he is degressing quickly, can't catch anymore, and play's a postion which contains our best player and our best prospect.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
I do like your targets FCB, but knowing the Reds FO history, do you honestly think the economics work out?

corkedbat
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
Answering Benihana:

I would trade Wood, Frazier and Soto for Sizemore.

Sign Beltre in the offseason

Sign Doug Davis in the offseason.

All deals within the realm of possibility and affordable. Which means they'd never happen in a million years.

If I had a bat like Sizemore in CF, I'd make a run at the younger table-setter like Figgens at 3B. Find another big bat in LF and free up Heisey, Stubbs and Dickerson for deals.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
I can't wait to hear the excuse now, "They all wanted us to pay the contract of our top guys to play for them and they wanted all of our depth in the minor leagues. Hey, we still have waivers. We might do something there, maybe a right handed bat."

If he makes it to 4 o'clock and doesn't do something to improve the Reds, he has to be replaced. He did nothing last year, he did nothing in the offseason, and he has done nothing at this deadline. The gigs up, it's time for him to go.

This is correct.

What a crap day...funny, though, I knew what to expect heading into today, yet I somehow hoped for more. There are times I really hate being a fan of this team, yet I would have no idea how to root for another. This sucks :(

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:15 PM
Martinez is not a .300, 25 HR guy. He may be a .275 15-20 HR guy.

He's a terrible target as he is degressing quickly, can't catch anymore, and play's a postion which contains our best player and our best prospect.

Martinez hit all of 2 HRs last season. He has rebounded ok this year with 15 but I always thought that he may be a PED case. Both him and Hafner have really dropped off offensively since the testing began. There has been no proof but he went from being one of the best catchers in the game to an average catcher who really doesn't belong at that position anymore.

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 04:15 PM
I'd trade Cueto for Sizemore if it were a straight up deal. How long does Sizemore have on his contract?


If you have to ask that question, how can you already have agreed to the deal?

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 04:16 PM
I'd trade Cueto for Sizemore if it were a straight up deal. How long does Sizemore have on his contract?

Grady Sizemore of
6 years/$23.45M (2006-11), plus 2012 club option

signed extension with Cleveland 3/06, replacing 1 year deal for 2006 signed 3/06

$1M signing bonus

06:$0.5M,
07:$0.75M,
08:$3M,
09:$4.6M,
10:$5.6M,
11:$7.5M,
12:$8.5M club option ($0.5M buyout)

2012 option may escalate to $10.5M if Sizemore wins Gold Glove or Silver Slugger, makes All Star team or ranks high in MVP vote (2008 All Star selection increased price of 2012 option to $9M)

award bonuses: $75,000 for All Star selection, $0.1M each for Gold Glove, Silver Slugger

if Sizemore is traded, he receives $0.5M assignment bonus and his salaries for remaining seasons increase by 10%

2012 option becomes a player option & buyout is forfeited if Sizemore declines the option
largest deal ever for play with less than 2 years of ML service

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 04:16 PM
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA.

So all your complaining about our rotation, and you want to trade our best (or 2nd best) pitcher. Absolutely classic.

Eh, don't see the kid as having too long or too outstanding a career.

Cueto's strange and awfully hard to project at this point. His walks are improved this season, but his K's have diminished drastically. His FIP and xFIP have been highly consistent, but not in any way eye-opening. I think he can have a good career, but I'd trade what I consider to be a bit of a question mark for a certainty in a position of great need.

I'd say that's logical and not at all worthy of your need to affix some kind of "contradiction" label (complete with imbecilic laugh cap text). It's called understanding your assets and the market.

Yeah, the rotation sucks, but again, if I don't really consider Cueto to be a solid concrete foundation, why build on him?

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
Martinez hit all of 2 HRs last season. He has rebounded ok this year with 15 but I always thought that he may be a PED case. Both him and Hafner have really dropped off offensively since the testing began. There has been no proof but he went from being one of the best catchers in the game to an average catcher who really doesn't belong at that position anymore.

the sox didn't give up much. Masterson has potential but the other guys(23 year olds in A ball) ... not so much

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
At this point, I'd be happy to have Carl Linder Jr. announce he's selling the team, firing Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker and the entire coaching staff.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:18 PM
If you have to ask that question, how can you already have agreed to the deal?

It's Grady sizemore and I know he has several years left?

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:18 PM
At this point, I'd be happy to have Carl Linder Jr. announce he's selling the team, firing Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker and the entire coaching staff.
:party:

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Oh goodie...I can't wait to hear the spin machine and Walt apologists springing into action.

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:20 PM
At this point, I'd be happy to have Carl Linder Jr. announce he's selling the team, firing Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker and the entire coaching staff.

Then the new guy would hire Bill Bavasi and Bob Boone to replace them.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 04:20 PM
Hairston has been dealt to the yankees.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Then the new guy would hire Bill Bavasi and Bob Boone to replace them.

:runawaycr

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Hairston has been dealt to the yankees.

And Dusty weeps...

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Hairston has been dealt to the yankees.

go Waltie ... go Waltie

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:22 PM
the sox didn't give up much. Masterson has potential but the other guys(23 year olds in A ball) ... not so much

He really doesn't have a position to play on the Reds. He can catch but he isn't very good. He can play 1b but the Reds best player is there as well as the top prospect in the system. He could however play DH for 9 games.

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:22 PM
go Waltie ... go Waltie

Dude got something for JHJ. That is a minor miracle in itself.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:23 PM
He really doesn't have a position to play on the Reds. He can catch but he isn't very good. He can play 1b but the Reds best player is there as well as the top prospect in the system. He could however play DH for 9 games.
I didn't want him on the Reds. The Sox just keep loading up and never seem to dip very deep into their prospect pool.

*BaseClogger*
07-31-2009, 04:24 PM
Dude got something for JHJ. That is a minor miracle in itself.

Hairston is a worthy bench player on a good team and his contract is reasonable for half a season. Getting a C prospect for him is going through the motions for most GMs, but yes a minor miracle Walt did it...

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:24 PM
Dude got something for JHJ. That is a minor miracle in itself.
that would be if he got something for Willy T.

Hairston has some value as a 24th or 25th man on a roster.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:25 PM
However, the Lincoln move was a disaster. The guy pitched like crap the second half of last season, and it was clear he was heading for a free fall. So we sign him to a two year deal?


No one on the board said he was headed for a free fall when he was signed this winter. IIRC, the worst cricism was "I'm not sure I would've given him 2 years, but at that price, it's ok". Lincoln was coming off a good year. No reason to not think he'd be adequate. He got a neck injury.
I mean, no one is saying that Volquez is a disaster this year, when he got hurt..








He did well with the catching situation, but there is NO depth in the outfield. The outfield is embarrassing and absolutely horrific. Gomes was a decent pickup, but he shouldn't be starting. It remains to be seen what we get with Wlad, so I can't praise that move.


Yep, not a great job in the OF, but he came in only having Bruce, Freel, Dickerson and Hopper. He correctly dumped Freel and Hopper.
I would've liked him to get a better LF, but then we would've had no money left for bullpen. I think the right move was to gamble and try to bottom feed in LF, since money was so tight. It didn't really work out that great. Bruce being hurt did not help either.




If the team was truly content on not contending this year and doing nothing to better their odds of winning, they should have traded Harang and Arroyo while they still had value. Now they have practically no value, and this franchise is stuck in the muck.


I'm not sure how much value they had in the offseason either, when everyone but the Yanks was pinching pennies (other than Atl signing Lowe).
In hindsight, extending Harang and Arroyo was a mistake. However, I'm not going to be too hard on Wayne for that. It seemed fairly reasonable at the time.





I give Walt an incomplete since taking the job, because it remains to be seen how he could perform with an actual ownership behind him.

I give Bob an F-, and his words ring hollow to me now.

This is pretty fair too. I feel betrayed by Bob. I guess it was just blind hope that we'd finally get an owner that really did want to win instead of sucking and milking reveneue sharing and the TV money. At least we'll get to hoist another "one of the most profitable franchises" banner. :rolleyes:

BRM
07-31-2009, 04:25 PM
that would be if he got something for Willy T.

Hairston has some value as a 24th or 25th man on a roster.

As opposed to being a regular. Like he was in Cincinnati.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
Cueto for Sizemore was my original idea, btw. But I was sure to hear the chorus for that one.

I would actually strongly consider that, although I understand your hestitancy for proposing it. I doubt most on the board would consider it.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't trade Cueto for Sizemore because I wouldn't want Sizemore sitting behind WT.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I wouldn't trade Cueto for Sizemore because I wouldn't want Sizemore sitting behind WT.

:bowrofl:

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
It's interesting that John Fay's blog is basically dead. His big item was that he was waiting for Walt to call him back and then he repeated Joel Sherman's story about Hairston. Does he do any reporting of his own? Does he have any sources in the Reds FO?

He's lucky the Enquirer hasn't cut him loose, because he'd tank in the real world if he had to actually do any "reporting."

blumj
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
the sox didn't give up much. Masterson has potential but the other guys(23 year olds in A ball) ... not so much

He had TJ surgery last year. Big lefty, throws hard. The 3rd guy is Bryan Price, comp pick for Gagne.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
It's interesting that John Fay's blog is basically dead. His big item was that he was waiting for Walt to call him back and then he repeated Joel Sherman's story about Hairston. Does he do any reporting of his own? Does he have any sources in the Reds FO?

He's lucky the Enquirer hasn't cut him loose, because he'd tank in the real world if he had to actually do any "reporting."

He reads Redszone and spells poorly.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
Fay just needs to follow the right people on Twitter. Malaise is rampant

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
Only 19 minutes left until....

The disappointment descends on Redszone :lol:

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 05:04 PM
All right...who was complaining that Walt wasn't going to make a move?