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Reds Fanatic
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
Trading Stewart is going to look really dumb in a few years. They should have let Walt take his afternoon nap.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
And a kiss first.pretty sure they skipped the foreplay. "The pimp" found his ____

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
As I was afraid: Target fixation and no other deals to support it.

He really telegraphs and then hones in without a Plan B, eh?

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
Rolen is one of my favorite players of all time, it's a shame that we're going to get the Griffey-esque "Fat Elvis" years of his career.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
Zach Stewart will win a Cy Young for Toronto. Bank on it. Seriously.So, "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect" doesn't apply here? I really know nothing about Stewart other than he is highly thought of on RZ, but I shrug anymore on dealing prospects. So many of them don't pan out or are fringe players. I laughed the other night when Jeff Stevens appeared for the Cubs, who was the PTBNL for Brandon Phillips. He made it to the majors, but I think we got our money's worth out of that prospect deal. Here's hoping Rolen is the beginning of rebuilding the O.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
They got friggin' hosed in this deal.

Stewart?

They must really think Rolen is still what he was seven years ago.

Dummies.


I remember the outrage when we traded a minor league pitcher with good numbers (Buddy Carlyle) for Kroon. I trust Walt to sort out the keepers in the minor leagues. Other than the Harden-Mulder deal, he's proven to be pretty good at that.

If we're stuck with Arroyo, Cordero and Harang next year, might as well try to piece together a starting 8 and do something.

Once again, I am thrilled to see EdE get "booted" out of town.

Kc61
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
If the Reds now try to get very good major league players to fill their holes for next year, this is ok.

If the Reds do their usual bit -- make one move and sit on their hands -- then this is a terrible trade.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Who plays 3rd tonight? WHO!!??

Hoosier Red
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
I understand wanting to get value, but in all honesty, where would Stewart rank among the young pitchers in the organization? 5th? 6th?

I've got to think he's behind in no particular order: Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Wood, and maybe some of the relievers like Fisher right?

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
He really telegraphs and then hones in without a Plan B, eh?

He did the same thing with everybody's favorite CF.

M2
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

CrackerJack
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Bad trade.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Who plays 3rd tonight? WHO!!??

Rosales.

wheels
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Very Bailey like, those numbers.

You know....That's not a bad point at all. It really isn't.

But I wouldn't be willing to risk that notion on a 35 year old has been with a tweaked out back.

Guh.

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
Cue Walt supporters with: Edwin had a bad attitude and was a clubhouse cancer

Nah Edwin was just bad. .209/.333/.374 was the reality of what he put up this year plus missing 60 games to the DL. Throw in the fact that he was awful on the defensive end and you have a problem at 3b.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
I swear, I'm not sure how anyone can accept this.

As I said for the past few days, EE for Rolen is debatable.

But Roenicke and STEWART?

Walt has gone mad. This trade will be laughed at by the baseball world. The Reds have been BUNGAL-ized. I swear.

Time to drink.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
If the Reds now try to get very good major league players to fill their holes for next year, this is ok.

.

They didn't try this past offseason, why would they start this offseason?

hippie07
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

I concur ...

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
I understand wanting to get value, but in all honesty, where would Stewart rank among the young pitchers in the organization? 5th? 6th?

I've got to think he's behind in no particular order: Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Wood, and maybe some of the relievers like Fisher right?

Way above Wood and probably above Bailey. Now about Volquez because it looks like his injury could be very serious.


Awful awful day for the Reds.

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
Well, it looks like the usual party lines are being drawn.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I get in the car in about an hour to drive the 8 hours to cincy for the weekend series.

Glad I'm going to Kings Island.

guttle11
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
Zach Stewart is bringing Denorfia like reaction for RZers.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
IMO the odds of Rolen staying healthy and playing 120+ games in 2010 are not good.

*BaseClogger*
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
Who woke up Walt!?!?

westofyou
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

Yep, EE is trending into Chris Brown territory to me.

Sometimes breaking up is hard.

lollipopcurve
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
Couple things:

EdE may be considered a bad contract. The Jays may not have wanted him, and the Reds had to overpay in minor league talent.

I was at the Louisville-Syracuse game last Friday, and I was surprised at how small Stewart is. Thought he was a much thicker guy. Not that that means much, but he does not look at all like a workhorse to me. I don't like giving him up in this deal, though.

The thing to keep in mind with trades, as always, is that you have to give to get. It's often painful.

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
Breaking news: Rolen injures back bending over to sign no-trade waiver paperwork.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
Fay has spoken, this needs a sticky.

wheels
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

Once again. Good perspective.

There is a decent chance that Stewart won't pan out. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

It's just that I wonder if better players from another organization couldn't have been had with that same package.

I'm not as mad about what will be as I am about what could have been.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
In short, he's a Reds' pitching prospect. Useless to the Reds.

But it's entirely possible that the Jays' farm system can develop him into something.

This argument is sooo tiresome. Different regime, the minor league system has actually been pretty decent recently. Stewart has had nothing but success up the chain, and could probably succeed as a reliever in the big leagues already.

Walt must think we are contenders. The only reasoning to back this trade is if you think the Reds are contending this year or next. I know you don't, and I know that 99% of this board doesn't.

I don't even get Rolen as a target, let alone as the guy we decided to shell out prospects for. Actual contenders haven't been willing to give up as much as the Reds just did in this trade.

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

I'm trying to take a step back here and evaluate this one as objective as possible (or eliminating the immediate emotion), and I think this is pretty much my take. Stewart's the one guy in this deal I didn't want to see included, but if he doesn't pan out then this could work in the Reds' favor.

Of course, if Stewart does pan out, well ... we just got reamed.

Knowing the Reds' luck, the latter is probably going to end up happening.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
Good chance Stewart might be the closer for the Jays in 2009

IslandRed
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

This is where we have to hope the minor-league staff had a good read on Stewart and figured, gaudy numbers aside, he was no sure thing to be a rotation centerpiece and this was the "sell high" moment.

Could be wrong. It happens. I was looking forward to seeing Stewart in Cincinnati myself.

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
i know everyone loves stewart but in the top 100 prospects in baseball hes ranked where???? I mean hes a nice pitching prospect but you do have to give up something to get an all start GG thirdbasemen.

He is about 50th in baseball. He has a 92-96 MPH plus fastball with sink and a plus slider.

How is it that the Phillies got Cliff Lee without including a pitcher as good as Stewart and we get an injury prone third baseman?

dunner13
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
I swear, I'm not sure how anyone can accept this.

As I said for the past few days, EE for Rolen is debatable.

But Roenicke and STEWART?

Walt has gone mad. This trade will be laughed at by the baseball world. The Reds have been BUNGAL-ized. I swear.

Time to drink.

EE cant field well enough to play defense at any position and his bat wont play in the AL East. This time next year hes a bench player for the jays.
Roeenicke is a reliever, possibly a good one but still a reliever.
Stewart is a prospect, not even our best one.

Good trade, if we are going to have any shot at competing in 2010 then we needed this trade.

thatcoolguy_22
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
I understand wanting to get value, but in all honesty, where would Stewart rank among the young pitchers in the organization? 5th? 6th?

I've got to think he's behind in no particular order: Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Wood, and maybe some of the relievers like Fisher right?

Cueto Volquez Stewart and then...

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
I understand wanting to get value, but in all honesty, where would Stewart rank among the young pitchers in the organization? 5th? 6th?

I've got to think he's behind in no particular order: Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Wood, and maybe some of the relievers like Fisher right?

Uhh, nope. You would be wrong.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
He is about 50th in baseball. He has a 92-96 MPH plus fastball with sink and a plus slider.

How is it that the Phillies got Cliff Lee without including a pitcher as good as Stewart and we get an injury prone third baseman?

We have an incompetent GM.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
He is about 50th in baseball. He has a 92-96 MPH plus fastball with sink and a plus slider.

How is it that the Phillies got Cliff Lee without including a pitcher as good as Stewart and we get an injury prone third baseman?

Uncle Walt had a dream it was the year 2000?

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
Yep, EE is trending into Chris Brown territory to me.

Sometimes breaking up is hard.I don't mind EE going ... I wouldn't have thrown Stewart in the deal for an aging oft injured 3b whose power is gone.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

I'd agree with this if it's circa 2000 Scott Rolen, but this guy has really been a mess the better part of the last 5 years (either due to injury, steep production decline, or both). The fact that he'll be 35 when he plays his first meaningful inning as a Reds 3B worries me.

It's not the end of the world type of apocalyptic trade by any stretch, but it's likely not to produce much for a team in limbo in 2010. I'm most worried by the fact that Walt is apparently under the impression that 2010 is our year, despite the mountain of evidence saying otherwise.

JaxRed
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
This was an idiotic trade. Just inexcusable

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
Is it still too early to grade Walt?

thatcoolguy_22
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
He is about 50th in baseball. He has a 92-96 MPH plus fastball with sink and a plus slider.

How is it that the Phillies got Cliff Lee without including a pitcher as good as Stewart and we get an injury prone third baseman?

A real GM.


WJ is done. Worst trade I have seen for the reds in my lifetime.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Wild thought here: maybe neither team got realy quality. Perhaps Rolen declines as he ages and gets hurt. Maybe EE continues to play 3rd like a DH and never develops his bat, Stewart never reaches the majors and Roenicke is a midle of the road middle reliever.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
The one thing that this signifies for me is that Walt and Bob have decided that they believe that they will be in contention next year. So, to me, this is step one.

I view this move in the same way as I viewed the Cordero signing at the time. If this is part of a larger legitimate initiative to improve the team in the short term, then I am cool with it. If the team is trash next year, then it makes no sense and it is an awful move.

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
To me, at first blush, this signals that they still think they are a few tweaks away from being relevant. I doubt we see Arroyo/Harrang moved later on.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
. Here's hoping Rolen is the beginning of rebuilding the O.

Yep, and fixing the defense too.

This deal gives me hope that the franchise actually has a pulse.

I could care less about Zach Stewart right now.

I knew that no matter what happened today, people would not be pleased.
This board SO overvalues Reds' prospects, that it is absurd.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
I'm trying to take a step back here and evaluate this one as objective as possible (or eliminating the immediate emotion), and I think this is pretty much my take. Stewart's the one guy in this deal I didn't want to see included, but if he doesn't pan out then this could work in the Reds' favor.

Of course, if Stewart does pan out, well ... we just got reamed.

Knowing the Reds' luck, the latter is probably going to end up happening.Ah, M2 and WOY, the calming voices of reason (I take all major credit cards and Paypal, guys)

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Jocketty just got owned by the worst GM in Baseball.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Good trade, if we are going to have any shot at competing in 2010 then we needed this trade.

But we have no shot of contending in 2010, so it's worse than pointless, it's actively deleterious to the franchise.

RedEye
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
This would have been a good deal for Rolen three or four years ago. Now? Not so much. Especially with the current state of the team.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Truthfully I think this organization is still playing for 2009 ... otherwise this deal makes no sense because long term it is almost a certain loser.

osuceltic
07-31-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

Exactly. And I'm not even that high on Roenicke. This is all about Stewart for me. If he turns into a 1, 2 or 3 starter in the bigs, it's probably a bad deal. If he turns into a back-end guy or bullpen fodder, it's a good deal.

My guess is the latter is more likely than the former.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:34 PM
White Sox have traded for Peavy.

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 04:34 PM
Wild thought here: maybe neither team got realy quality. Perhaps Rolen declines as he ages and gets hurt. Maybe EE continues to play 3rd like a DH and never develops his bat, Stewart never reaches the majors and Roenicke is a midle of the road middle reliever.

Stewart is in AAA right now pitching lights out. Odds that he never reaches the majors are about 1000 to 1.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 04:34 PM
Wild thought here: maybe neither team got realy quality. Perhaps Rolen declines as he ages and gets hurt. Maybe EE continues to play 3rd like a DH and never develops his bat, Stewart never reaches the majors and Roenicke is a midle of the road middle reliever.

So the best case scenario is that everyone involved tanks? Way to aim high, Jock.

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 04:34 PM
Hate to see Stewart as part of the deal, but I don't think EE was a big draw in himself. On Stewart, let's remember how overpowering Ryan Wagner once seemed, another guy who blitzed through the minors. Rolen makes the infield immediately better. If we add a decent SS, the infield next year becomes first-rate. That's not nothing. Signing of Rolen may mean, too, that the FO is higher on Frazier than we've thought--i.e. that somebody thinks he really can hold down LF.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

This could be totally true.

But unless the rest of the team is acyallt contender worthy over the next year, then it's a lose lose basically. Who knows if Rolen is still going to a viable trading chip at this point next year, if he's not, due to injury or whatever, the Reds just traded some of their better young talent to upgrade a reall really bad team, that is not a Rolen, or even a Halladay away from contending.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
The Reds really want to get to .500. Too bad they aren't going to make it.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
Stewart is in AAA right now pitching lights out. Odds that he never reaches the majors are about 1000 to 1.


Okay, well he reaches the majors and turns into a pumpkin. Very good odds on that.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
So the best case scenario is that everyone involved tanks? Way to aim high, Jock.


Aiming low or being a realist?

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

Welcome to the group of maybe 4 people here that doesn't think this deal dooms the Reds forever..

One of Walt's strengths in StL was converting marginal prospects into ML talent.

EdE reached the point of being useless. He has negative value.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:36 PM
The Reds really want to get to .500. Too bad they aren't going to make it.


That's exactly what it is.

How many teams try to "go for it" to make it to .500?

Walt is innovative I guess.

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
Welcome to the group of maybe 4 people here that doesn't think this deal dooms the Reds forever..

With the exception of some very emotional posts (made by typically emotional posters) nobody here is saying this move dooms the Reds forever.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
Zach Stewart is bringing Denorfia like reaction for RZers.

:lol: good analogy.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
Look at all the trades made at the deadline. Does any trade make less sense than this one?

Kc61
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
Truthfully I think this organization is still playing for 2009 ... otherwise this deal makes no sense because long term it is almost a certain loser.


It's for 2010.

I think they gave up a tad too much, but prospects flame out constantly, you can't get too hung up on them unless they are truly elite guys.

Everyone can gnash their teeth over this, I'm hoping Rolen has a good few years left and that this is the start of a series of acquisitions of guys who know how to succeed at major league baseball.

Meanwhile, two young pitchers are gone but the Reds will soon sign their first two draft choices and there will be two new young pitchers to re-stock the farm.

And, of course, we should see some better throwing from third base.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
Doc Holliday not traded to the Reds. Per ESPN

BearcatShane
07-31-2009, 04:38 PM
I highly doubt the Reds are playing for .500 in 2009. Their what 10 or 11 games under right now? Walt knows Scott Rolen won't make THAT big of a difference. I know we have said this before but lets see what they do in the offseason...

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
Aiming low or being a realist?

If Jocketty really believes that Encarnacion, Stewart, and Roenicke are crap, and that Rolen is done, then there is absolutely no reason to make the deal at all.

The Reds have definitely gotten more expensive for '09 and '10, and quite probably worse as well. Helluva job, Brownie.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
The one thing that this signifies for me is that Walt and Bob have decided that they believe that they will be in contention next year. So, to me, this is step one.

I view this move in the same way as I viewed the Cordero signing at the time. If this is part of a larger legitimate initiative to improve the team in the short term, then I am cool with it. If the team is trash next year, then it makes no sense and it is an awful move.

That's right. Now, all they need to do is figure out where are they going to find/afford the requisite LF, SS, CF?, SPs to turn perhaps the worst team in the NL into a playoff team within the next 8 months?

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
Okay, well he reaches the majors and turns into a pumpkin. Very good odds on that.

Actually the odds aren't good on that. The guy has a 1.67 ERA, incredible groundball rates, two plus pitches and control as a starter. Those guys don't turn into pumpkins all that often, much less at a high rate.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
Doc Holliday not traded to the Reds. Per ESPN

No but we did end up with an aging, sick gunslinger to play the hot corner.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
I won't mind watching Rolen playing defense when he's healthy, and since I'll be at the game Sunday I probably will get to do it, but this is WAY too much for him, especially since there's been no news on the Jays paying any of his contract.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Look at all the trades made at the deadline. Does any trade make less sense than this one?

How about giving up your #2 and 3 prospects plus more for an injured pitcher?


According to MLB.com's Corey Brock, the Padres have dealt injured ace Jake Peavy to the White Sox for Aaron Poreda, Clayton Richard, Adam Russell and more.

Leave it to White Sox GM Kenny Williams to sit quietly during the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, only to make a major splash in the final seconds.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
He is about 50th in baseball. He has a 92-96 MPH plus fastball with sink and a plus slider.

How is it that the Phillies got Cliff Lee without including a pitcher as good as Stewart and we get an injury prone third baseman?

Disagree. Knapp is probably more highly regarded than Stewart.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Stewart is in AAA right now pitching lights out. Odds that he never reaches the majors are about 1000 to 1.Larry Leubbers reached the majors.

dfs
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm happy with this trade.
I think you are the only one that believes
A. Rolen will not get hurt
B. Bob C will take on the salary.

Terrible, Terrible trade.

MrCinatit
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
I'll be honest, I am not all that upset over the guys they are losing.
However, I do look at the acquisition of Rolen as a move akin to the Pirates picking up Matt Morris a couple of years ago. Struggling ball club going absolutely nowhere - and one that, frankly, is in dire need of getting rid of elderly guys bordering on the useless. Granted, Rolen has not been terrible this year...but he ain't no savior. I've got a feeling that Redszone may have found a new whipping boy.

Hoosier Red
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Way above Wood and probably above Bailey. Now about Volquez because it looks like his injury could be very serious.


Awful awful day for the Reds.

Why above Wood? He's a college pitcher and they put up similar numbers only Wood's a HS pitcher if I remember right.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
. I know we have said this before but lets see what they do in the offseason...

...and then wait for the next trade deadline, then the next offseason, over and OVER, and OOOOVER.

M2
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Once again. Good perspective.

There is a decent chance that Stewart won't pan out. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

It's just that I wonder if better players from another organization couldn't have been had with that same package.

I'm not as mad about what will be as I am about what could have been.

Fair points, Stewart might have had some market.

Provided Rolen stays healthy, he can hit cleanup for the Reds behind Votto and it pushes Phillips up to the #2 slot (not ideally where you'd hit Phillips, but it's an upgrade over what Dusty's been batting there).

I feel a bit bad Rolen actually. He's probably looking at getting dealt this time next year, then signing a free agent after that. He could be with four clubs in a short span of time.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
With the exception of some very emotional posts (made by typically emotional posters) nobody here is saying this move dooms the Reds forever.
most here think the major league roster is 3-4 impact players away from being a legitimate contender ... it is hard to see how a gimpy 35 year old with declining power is going to a major impact.

Will he be an improvement over EE? Yes, if he can stay healthy.

I don't mind losing Roenicke (middle relief is fungible) but Stewart has some serious upside. Honestly I would rather it have been Alonso.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
Actually the odds aren't good on that. The guy has a 1.67 ERA, incredible groundball rates, two plus pitches and control as a starter. Those guys don't turn into pumpkins all that often, much less at a high rate.

And weather he turns into a pumpkin or doesn't it's not wise to trade promising prospects for a guy who's chances of making even the rest of this season without injury isn't real intelligent.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
That's right. Now, all they need to do is figure out where are they going to find/afford the requisite LF, SS, CF?, SPs to turn perhaps the worst team in the NL into a playoff team within the next 8 months?

If they are healthy next year and Bruce comes to play then the job becomes a little easier.

But it's still a big job.

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
Once again. Good perspective.

There is a decent chance that Stewart won't pan out. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

It's just that I wonder if better players from another organization couldn't have been had with that same package.

I'm not as mad about what will be as I am about what could have been.

That is my biggest issue with this trade. Stewart has thrown one year of starting baseball in the minor leagues. After that they moved him to the pen in order to limit his innings. In all likelihood he will be on an innings limit over the next few seasons as he tries to build up starter innings.

It is a scouts and front offices job to analyze each prospect and how well they project to the next level. The good organizations are the ones who are able to tell which minor leaguer doesn't translate well to the majors and boost up their value. If I am ranking young arms in the Reds system I rank Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, and Wood over Stewart. Sorry Wood gets the nod because he is a lefty. Not to mention that one should be about to enter the pipeline in Leake.

As for Roenike he was an interesting prospect but it looked like he has been passed up by Fisher, Massett, and Burton. The Reds as of late have shown the ability to produce live pen arms. Roenike may go on and have a great career, but even then I am not sweating his departure.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 04:41 PM
I like the deal. It makes the 2010 Reds a better team.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
How about giving up your #2 and 3 prospects plus more for an injured pitcher?Jake Peavy though. I don't recall if his injury is arm related, but I'm pretty sure he is expected to be fine upon his return.

WMR
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Reds are so stupid. Oh well, training camp is about to start.

nate
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Yep, and fixing the defense too.

This deal gives me hope that the franchise actually has a pulse.

I could care less about Zach Stewart right now.

I knew that no matter what happened today, people would not be pleased.
This board SO overvalues Reds' prospects, that it is absurd.

Can you point me to some of "this board's" posts overvaluing the Reds prospects?

thatcoolguy_22
07-31-2009, 04:43 PM
I know we have said this before but lets see what they do in the offseason...

Why?

Bring back Krivsky!!!!!!!!!

Kc61
07-31-2009, 04:43 PM
This is a commitment to 2010. The Reds must follow through on that commitment with other acquisitions. Otherwise, it is a waste.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:43 PM
Espn is reporting that the Reds have not traded for Yunil Escobar.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 04:43 PM
Can you point me to some of "this board's" posts overvaluing the Reds prospects?

Dougdirt has booked Z Stewart as winning a Cy Young for Toronto.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
This is a commitment to 2010. The Reds must follow through on that commitment with other acquisitions. Otherwise, it is a waste.


Did they follow up with CoCo?

nate
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
Dougdirt has booked Z Stewart as winning a Cy Young for Toronto.

Does Doug also post under the name of "this board?"

I've never read anything by "this board."

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
Disagree. Knapp is probably more highly regarded than Stewart.
Doubtful. Zach Stewart was at one time on Baseball America's "next 25" after their top 25 midseason prospects. Jason Knapp wasn't and since that point Jason Knapp has been put on the DL with shoulder issues.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
no but we did end up with an aging, sick gunslinger to play the hot corner.

post of the day!

SirFelixCat
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
Fair points, Stewart might have had some market.

Provided Rolen stays healthy, he can hit cleanup for the Reds behind Votto and it pushes Phillips up to the #2 slot (not ideally where you'd hit Phillips, but it's an upgrade over what Dusty's been batting there).

I feel a bit bad Rolen actually. He's probably looking at getting dealt this time next year, then signing a free agent after that. He could be with four clubs in a short span of time.

Doesn't BP to the 5th spot in the order make more sense?

Homer Bailey
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
Espn is reporting that the Reds have not traded for Yunil Escobar.

I thought the t was a W for a second there.

Az Red
07-31-2009, 04:44 PM
Rolen brings leadership, Rolen brings leadership, (repeat after me) Rolen brings leadership...

rinse and repeat

M2
07-31-2009, 04:45 PM
I'd agree with this if it's circa 2000 Scott Rolen, but this guy has really been a mess the better part of the last 5 years (either due to injury, steep production decline, or both). The fact that he'll be 35 when he plays his first meaningful inning as a Reds 3B worries me.

It's not the end of the world type of apocalyptic trade by any stretch, but it's likely not to produce much for a team in limbo in 2010. I'm most worried by the fact that Walt is apparently under the impression that 2010 is our year, despite the mountain of evidence saying otherwise.

I agree that in the big picture it's hard to figure why the Reds made this deal. If they aren't after a half dozen other important additions, it won't matter.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:45 PM
Does Doug also post under the name of "this board?"

I've never read anything by "this board."

"This board" has all agreed that Krono needs a juice break.

NDRed
07-31-2009, 04:45 PM
If Jocketty really believes that Encarnacion, Stewart, and Roenicke are crap, and that Rolen is done, then there is absolutely no reason to make the deal at all.

The Reds have definitely gotten more expensive for '09 and '10, and quite probably worse as well. Helluva job, Brownie.


How could this make the Reds worse in 2009? Are you saying Rolen is not an upgrade over EE?

redsmetz
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
I like the deal as structured. Some risk with Stewart, but that happens. Of course, there's risk with Rolen, but I think we need a veteran guy who can help move this club along. We haven't had that. Of course, lets hope he stays away from Kremchek. I hope EE does well. I've liked him all along and I've always rooted for him.

nate
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
"This board" has all agreed that Krono needs a juice break.

That was "everyone here" and he said it was a "timeout."

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
Why?

Bring back Krivsky!!!!!!!!!

Fast forward to July 2010:


Rolen, Reds agree to a 5 year extension.

hebroncougar
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
How soon until Rolen punches Phillips in his smiling mouth after he strikes out?

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
Would like to have seen the Reds keep Roenicke. Glad to see EEE out of here. Makes me happy.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
Fair points, Stewart might have had some market.

Provided Rolen stays healthy, he can hit cleanup for the Reds behind Votto and it pushes Phillips up to the #2 slot (not ideally where you'd hit Phillips, but it's an upgrade over what Dusty's been batting there).

I feel a bit bad Rolen actually. He's probably looking at getting dealt this time next year, then signing a free agent after that. He could be with four clubs in a short span of time.

I would think BP now bats 5th, not 2nd, no?

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:46 PM
Rolen's injury history is a risk, but if they get a season plus of the Rolen that played against the Reds earlier this year, he is going to make this a better team. That is all you can ask of any player. Good luck to EE, maybe he can perfect the one bounce off the turf throw for his home games. Roenicke seemed to be nibbling once he got up here, and the other night, he was missing his target by several feet on his fastball. Don't forget he is 26 even though his arm is a bit young as a converted OFer.

Stewart is a wildcard and I'm sure the primary target of this deal for the Jays. Still, say it over and over, "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect."

Kc61
07-31-2009, 04:47 PM
Did they follow up with CoCo?

No, they failed completely to do so.

If they fail again, this is a real bad trade.

It only makes sense if the Reds add materially in the off-season.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:47 PM
With the exception of some very emotional posts (made by typically emotional posters) nobody here is saying this move dooms the Reds forever.

Saying they are done with the Reds forever, that this is the worst trade ever, Walt needs to be fired.. saying that Zach Stewart is the third best pitcher in the organization..

This is just crazy.

Yes, if Zach Stewart becomes something special, Walt deserves all this tongue lashing.

Rolen is an injury risk, but he greatly upgrades 3b at a minimal cost in terms of talent (IMO). That's one more hole filled.

Like I said earlier, if you can't trade Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero, you might as well try to win with them next year by picking up legitimate position players. The NL Central is still going to be weak next year.
Add a SS, get some rebound from Harang/Arroyo, better health, and this team could actually be worth watching next year.

I've spent the last 10 years waiting for all the Zach Stewarts, Jay Bruces, etc to arrive from the farm and save the day. It never happened. I'm thrilled to see the Reds actually upgrading positions on their roster. EdE was a horrible player. Glad to see him gone.

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 04:47 PM
I agree that in the big picture it's hard to figure why the Reds made this deal. If they aren't after a half dozen other important additions, it won't matter.

Yup, this team still needs more pitching, a shortstop, a center fielder and a left fielder. Walt's got about eight months to make it happen, and unfortunately I've got little to no confidence that it will actually happen.

redsmetz
07-31-2009, 04:47 PM
Espn is reporting that the Reds have not traded for Yunil Escobar.

Are they also reporting that Francisco Franco is still dead??? :D

nate
07-31-2009, 04:48 PM
How could this make the Reds worse in 2009? Are you saying Rolen is not an upgrade over EE?

It depends on how many games he plays.

It also depends on how much salary the Reds just assumed.

If they gave up those three players AND are paying Rolen's full salary next year, look for all the new 2010 Reds to come via trade.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Did they follow up with CoCo?

Nope, but it wasn't Walt who pulled off that masterpiece.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
The Reds have definitely gotten more expensive for '09 and '10, and quite probably worse as well. Helluva job, Brownie.

How did they get worse? Did you think EdE and the two pitchers would have a bigger impact in 09-10 than Rolen?

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
WJ is done. Worst trade I have seen for the reds in my lifetime.

Please.

Ltlabner
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Yup, this team still needs more pitching, a shortstop, a center fielder and a left fielder. Walt's got about eight months to make it happen, and unfortunately I've got little to no confidence that it will actually happen.

Man, it feels like that shopping list has been on Walt's to-do list for a while now.

CTA513
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
Rolen better stay healthy and be a hitting machine for the rest of his contract.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 04:50 PM
If they are healthy next year and Bruce comes to play then the job becomes a little easier.

But it's still a big job.

My take as well. Don't care for the deal as is, but if it means Castellini and the Reds are going to take on enough salary to compete in 2010, I'm all for it. By my count, Rolen's an above average player this year. Two poor years before. Getting older and injury prone.

But he's better than EdE.

With Rolen, Votto, and Phillips, the IF is pretty solid offensively, even with a black hole at short right now. (A free agent signing might be okay, but I'm guessing Janish.) If Bruce pans out and Jocketty is able to convince Baker to try either Heisey or Stubbs in CF instead of Taveras, the only needs are a pitcher and a LF.

The 2010 free agent class is lousy with LFers and good pitchers.

That's the admittedly optimistic viewpoint.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:50 PM
This is a commitment to 2010. The Reds must follow through on that commitment with other acquisitions. Otherwise, it is a waste.

Kc, they've been saying for a long time that they think they are a player or two away. I've felt that it was more truth than PR or lip service all along. I think this type of move indicates they believe what they're peddling. I wouldn't expect any drastic moves this offseason, rather some tinkering at the fringes, and a hope that the addition of Rolen plus better team health = contention. Frankly, I think they've made a major miscalculation.

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 04:50 PM
Does Doug also post under the name of "this board?"

I've never read anything by "this board."

Toronto has some of the best pitching coaches around. They will turn him from a groundball machine into THE groundball machine. Just wait and watch.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:50 PM
I think you are the only one that believes
A. Rolen will not get hurt
B. Bob C will take on the salary.

Terrible, Terrible trade.

Dave, is it terrible just because Stewart was in it?
Or because you dislike Rolen?

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:50 PM
Nope, but it wasn't Walt who pulled off that masterpiece.

Walt was the one doing/not doing the "after CoCo" stuff.

He's an empty suit at this point.

WMR
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Yup, this team still needs more pitching, a shortstop, a center fielder and a left fielder. Walt's got about eight months to make it happen, and unfortunately I've got little to no confidence that it will actually happen.

This move allows him to clear his schedule to negotiate full-time with Alex Gonzalez for an extension.

- We've still got another season of the T-virus ... CF solved.

I've got a feeling, though, and I bet Bob would agree with me, that the addition of Rolen--and the intangibles that he brings--will raise the production of the entire ball club.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
It depends on how many games he plays.

It also depends on how much salary the Reds just assumed.

If they gave up those three players AND are paying Rolen's full salary next year, look for all the new 2010 Reds to come via trade.I don't care where they come from as long as they are good ballplayers.

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:53 PM
Can you point me to some of "this board's" posts overvaluing the Reds prospects?

I have to leave in a few min.. when I have more time I will.

NDRed
07-31-2009, 04:54 PM
At some point or time you have to take risks. Fans, of all teams, overvalue their prospects. Maybe this will turn into Larry Anderson for Bagwell but it is not likely.

This makes the Reds better in 2009 and in 2010. I love having prospects but anything can happen. Even with his injury history I would say the current Scot Rolen is more predictable than a minor league pitcher with 150 innings of professional baseball experience.

M2
07-31-2009, 04:54 PM
Doesn't BP to the 5th spot in the order make more sense?

If the team had #1 and #2 hitters I'd say so, even #6. Given the manager, I'm thinking he's moving up.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 04:54 PM
How did they get worse? Did you think EdE and the two pitchers would have a bigger impact in 09-10 than Rolen?

I'll take Encarnacion--who I hate--for 150 games over Rolen for 100 and Adam effing Rosales for 50.

I suspect Stewart and Roenicke would have been in our bullpen Opening Day.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 04:55 PM
I have to leave in a few min.. when I have more time I will.

Considering you almost always are in disagreement with the rest of "the board", you'll never find anything where the entire board agrees on something. Except that I'm awesome. Everyone does agree on that.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 04:55 PM
Toronto has some of the best pitching coaches around. They will turn him from a groundball machine into THE groundball machine. Just wait and watch.Sounds like John Cooper talking about his latest recruit back in the day.

bucksfan2
07-31-2009, 04:55 PM
I'll take Encarnacion--who I hate--for 150 games over Rolen for 100 and Adam effing Rosales for 50.

I suspect Stewart and Roenicke would have been in our bullpen Opening Day.

I think in 2010 you get 130 games from Rolen and 30 games from Frazier.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:55 PM
Walt was the one doing/not doing the "after CoCo" stuff.

He's an empty suit at this point.

Year one had zero follow-up. That was Wayniac.

And 4 year deals for mid 30s relievers aren't usually done for the later years of the deal.

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 04:55 PM
I'll take Encarnacion--who I hate--for 150 games over Rolen for 100 and Adam effing Rosales for 50.

I suspect Stewart and Roenicke would have been in our bullpen Opening Day.

I wouldn't. EE just can't make that throw from 3b to 1b, and I just don't think he'll ever be able to do it.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 04:57 PM
I think in 2010 you get 130 games from Rolen and 30 games from Frazier.

Yes, but we have no idea, since he's managed less than that in 3 of the past 4 full seasons (and this season isn't to that threshold yet). I hope you're right, but precedent indicates the odds are against it.

nate
07-31-2009, 04:57 PM
Toronto has some of the best pitching coaches around. They will turn him from a groundball machine into THE groundball machine. Just wait and watch.

I see through your disguise now, "this board!"

:cool:

dfs
07-31-2009, 04:58 PM
Dave, is it terrible just because Stewart was in it?
Or because you dislike Rolen?

Yes. Both. They go hand in hand. I don't think Rolen can stay healthy.
I think Stewart is one of the more valuable properties the reds had in their minor league system.

I could stomach Edwin and Stewart. I think it's too much, but I could stomach it. Edwin, Stewart AND Roeicke is just terrible.

Is Scott Rolen going to be around for the next reds team that really matters? No. By putting him on the payroll, they can't go shopping for free agents this winter. It stops the franchise dead in it's tracks.

They still need a shortstop and a leftfielder and now with injuries and setbacks a good bit of that minor league pitching depth is gone.

Rojo
07-31-2009, 04:59 PM
So what it comes down to: Is Rolen done? Is Stewart the real deal?

REDREAD
07-31-2009, 04:59 PM
Considering you almost always are in disagreement with the rest of "the board", you'll never find anything where the entire board agrees on something. Except that I'm awesome. Everyone does agree on that.

Don't see the point on this commnet. I don't think I've seen a single transaction that the entire board has ever agreed on. If we got Hallday for Zach Stewart, there would still be teeth gnashing over taking on the salary, and what a great prospect Stewart was.

If you're trying to point out that you are somehow "cooler" than me.. :lol:

nate
07-31-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't care where they come from as long as they are good ballplayers.

I don't care either but will the trade options be that much better in the offseason?

That's an honest question, btw!

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 04:59 PM
Toronto has some of the best pitching coaches around. They will turn him from a groundball machine into THE groundball machine. Just wait and watch.

Except they also have some serious injury problems with their young pitching.

Joseph
07-31-2009, 05:01 PM
So what it comes down to: Is Rolen done? Is Stewart the real deal?

That is the question indeed......err those are the questions rather.

Is Rolen done? Mostly would be my opinon.

Is Stewart the real deal? I have no clue, its all only speculation. I just know Gruler and Howington and Wagner were all gonna save this teams backside. Before that there were the Pughs and Ropers. Before that....well the beat goes on. Stewart may well be Toronto's next ace we just don't know.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:01 PM
I wouldn't. EE just can't make that throw from 3b to 1b, and I just don't think he'll ever be able to do it.

I hate Encarnacion. I think he makes everyone else on the team worse because they know they can't trust him in the field. I think our pitchers subtly avoid giving a hitter a pitch they could take to third, because they know it's likely he'll butcher the ball. I think he's a colossally overrated hitter.

But why in the world does a 5th place team with no chance of contending in 2009 and a minimal chance of contention next year with a spendthrift owner send two good, cheap bullpen arms away for what is at best a minor upgrade at third base? Especially when there are gaping, bleeding wounds in the organization at SS, LF, CF, and starting P?

RedEye
07-31-2009, 05:02 PM
At some point or time you have to take risks. Fans, of all teams, overvalue their prospects. Maybe this will turn into Larry Anderson for Bagwell but it is not likely.


This is not comparable to the Bagwell-Anderson deal IMO. Even though trading Bagwell turned out to be a colossal mistake, the Sox still did get a valuable piece of the puzzle for a playoff push when they made the deal. This time, the Reds got piece of questionable value for a DOA playoff push.

Although I'm not a fan of what Walt gave up for Rolen, I can deal with it (at least we still have a young man named Yonder in the farm system). What concerns me more, though, is that this deal shows very little long-term planning for the franchise. Unless the Reds are prepared to add three or four more significant pieces in the coming months, it makes no sense. I'm not holding my breath.

*BaseClogger*
07-31-2009, 05:03 PM
And 4 year deals for mid 30s relievers aren't usually done for the later years of the deal.

Except for Scott Linebrink:

08: $4M
09: $4.5M
10: $5M
11: $5.5M

flyer85
07-31-2009, 05:03 PM
This isn't about next year ... this team is trying to win now.

Kc61
07-31-2009, 05:03 PM
Kc, they've been saying for a long time that they think they are a player or two away. I've felt that it was more truth than PR or lip service all along. I think this type of move indicates they believe what they're peddling. I wouldn't expect any drastic moves this offseason, rather some tinkering at the fringes, and a hope that the addition of Rolen plus better team health = contention. Frankly, I think they've made a major miscalculation.


Stormy, I respectfully disagree. The Reds aren't shelling out for Rolen to go with Nix, Gomes, and Taveras in the outfield next year. They won't add 5 major free agents, no, but there's no question that they feel ready to exchange some kids for some good veteran ballplayers and maybe to sign a serious free agent.

I fully expect them to add at least one major position player and one good pitcher this off season. And either to acquire a shortstop or to decide on Janish with offensive upgrades in other positions.

Everyone here is selling Walt Jocketty way too short. He's a solid guy, hamstrung by finances. I never thought his goal was to wait out the farm and I still don't. He will be active this winter IMO, limited only by finances and value to trade.

I think he gave up a lot of value for Rolen. But if next year the Reds are a solid team with some good proven talent along with some good kids, I'll be happy with it.

I just can't wait for 2015 or whatever for all these kids to maybe pan out. I'm happy they may be going for a good team next year.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 05:04 PM
Don't see the point on this commnet. I don't think I've seen a single transaction that the entire board has ever agreed on. If we got Hallday for Zach Stewart, there would still be teeth gnashing over taking on the salary, and what a great prospect Stewart was.

If you're trying to point out that you are somehow "cooler" than me.. :lol:

uh, no...

Just commenting that you said you were going to find examples where the board, well here, I'll let you say it again:

[quote]Originally Posted by REDREAD
I have to leave in a few min.. when I have more time I will. [ point us to some of "this board's" posts overvaluing the Reds prospects][/b]


Nate was using "this board" as us as a whole. "This board" has never agreed on anything ever. Except that I'm awesome.

Raisor
07-31-2009, 05:05 PM
I hate Encarnacion.

I hate weevils.

Kc61
07-31-2009, 05:06 PM
What concerns me more, though, is that this deal shows very little long-term planning for the franchise. Unless the Reds are prepared to add three or four more significant pieces in the coming months, it makes no sense. I'm not holding my breath.

The Reds have been "long-term planning" for 8 years now.
Sometimes short term planning is better. I don't know how they could have short-term planned their infield better than they just did.

Every move is not for the long term. Guys get hurt, or become free agents in the long term.

redsfan1966
07-31-2009, 05:06 PM
First reaction for me is why? What does this deal really gain us? The only thing I can take from it, and others have mentioned this, is that we are starting to position ourselves for '10 beginning now...hopefully the off-season will also consist of moves to supplement this deal....

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 05:06 PM
Is Stewart the real deal? I have no clue, its all only speculation. I just know Gruler and Howington and Wagner were all gonna save this teams backside. Before that there were the Pughs and Ropers. Before that....well the beat goes on. Stewart may well be Toronto's next ace we just don't know.

At the same time only Wagner showed anything close to what Stewart has shown at a high level, and he did that as a reliever, not as a starter. Gruler never made it anywhere and was all of 19 before he was toast due to injuries. Howington made it to AA, struggled mightily with his control, then got hurt. Stewart has a 1.67 ERA in A+, AA and AAA this year with two plus pitches and control. Its not quite the same comparison. Stewart is an unproven, but he isn't exactly an unknown. He has gotten it done in outstanding fashion all the way up the ladder so far with both stuff and control. The Reds haven't had many guys like that in the last 40 years. Cueto is the only guy in that same sentence from the last 25.

gm
07-31-2009, 05:07 PM
When Walt took over I said he's going to improve the defense, and the two most egregious clankers were Dunn and EdE. It took a little longer than I expected, but now they're outta here

Meanwhile, it doesn't look like Tony and the Cardies are missing ol' Jock all that much

Jpup
07-31-2009, 05:08 PM
First reaction for me is why? What does this deal really gain us? The only thing I can take from it, and others have mentioned this, is that we are starting to position ourselves for '10 beginning now...hopefully the off-season will also consist of moves to supplement this deal....

.500 baby!

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:08 PM
Everyone here is selling Walt Jocketty way too short. He's a solid guy, hamstrung by finances. I never thought his goal was to wait out the farm and I still don't. He will be active this winter IMO, limited only by finances and value to trade.

If he can't take on salary, and he won't "sell the farm", how in the hell is going to be active this offseason?

Sounds like we're going to be in hot pursuit of the next Willy Taveras.

RedEye
07-31-2009, 05:08 PM
The Reds have been "long-term planning" for 8 years now.
Sometimes short term planning is better. I don't know how they could have short-term planned their infield better than they just did.

Every move is not for the long term. Guys get hurt, or become free agents in the long term.

Maybe I should have written "short-term" planning. Anyway, what I meant was planning in general. Without several other moves, I don't think Rolen makes sense for this team. Unfortunately, given recent FO activities, I don't have any confidence that there are more parts to this plan. Instead, it strikes me as one of those "let's get a name everybody knows to quiet the fan base" type deals.

If Walt has more up his sleeve in the months to come, I will stand corrected--at least on my charge that it doesn't "make sense." I hope I eat crow on this... I really do.

ochre
07-31-2009, 05:09 PM
Encarnacion ?= Polanco
Roenicke ?= Timlin
Stewart ?= Smith

Based on potential (unkown with JR v. known with MT), I'd say Roenicke > Timlin.
Stewart v. Smith is probably a wash. (And provides an example of how quickly a prospect's shine can tarnish)

Polanco would probably get the nod over Encarnacion, but I don't think it's quite as glaring as it seems in hindsight. Polanco has turned into a nice player, but I don't think he was particularly highly regarded at the time.

I think, on some levels, it could be argued that WJ just gave up more for the '09 Rolen than he did for the '02 Rolen. I know Rolen had some leverage (and was applying said leverage) with the Phillies, but it seems to me that WJ just overpaid.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 05:09 PM
If he can't take on salary, and he won't "sell the farm", how in the hell is going to be active this offseason?

Sounds like we're going to be in hot pursuit of the next Willy Taveras.

Hopefully he deals some money.

CTA513
07-31-2009, 05:10 PM
When Walt took over I said he's going to improve the defense, and the two most egregious clankers were Dunn and EdE. It took a little longer than I expected, but now they're outta here

Meanwhile, it doesn't look like Tony and the Cardies are missing ol' Jock all that much

If the Reds didn't want Encarnacion then they shouldn't have given him a 2 year deal.

westofyou
07-31-2009, 05:11 PM
I agree that in the big picture it's hard to figure why the Reds made this deal. If they aren't after a half dozen other important additions, it won't matter.

Jeff Russell for Buddy Bell 2.0

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 05:11 PM
At the same time only Wagner showed anything close to what Stewart has shown at a high level, and he did that as a reliever, not as a starter. Gruler never made it anywhere and was all of 19 before he was toast due to injuries. Howington made it to AA, struggled mightily with his control, then got hurt. Stewart has a 1.67 ERA in A+, AA and AAA this year with two plus pitches and control. Its not quite the same comparison. Stewart is an unproven, but he isn't exactly an unknown. He has gotten it done in outstanding fashion all the way up the ladder so far with both stuff and control. The Reds haven't had many guys like that in the last 40 years. Cueto is the only guy in that same sentence from the last 25.

Whoa...by my count Stewart has started a total of 7 starts at AA or higher. Only 14 total starts in his entire career...how can you expect me to get past your 1st sentence?

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Hopefully he deals some money.

More piles of cash to spend on garbage like Taveras and Lincoln.

M2
07-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Jeff Russell for Buddy Bell 2.0

Good comp. I liked the Buddy Bell years. Now it's time to find Bo Diaz.

Jpup
07-31-2009, 05:13 PM
More piles of cash to spend on garbage like Taveras and Lincoln.

What does, my boy, Lincoln have to do with this? Dude's got a bad neck. He'll be back. :)

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 05:13 PM
Wild thought here: maybe neither team got realy quality. Perhaps Rolen declines as he ages and gets hurt. Maybe EE continues to play 3rd like a DH and never develops his bat, Stewart never reaches the majors and Roenicke is a midle of the road middle reliever.

The first part is already true, Rolen has already declined and gets hurt.

I think we gave up more for Rolen than the Cards did about 10 years ago.

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:13 PM
Except they also have some serious injury problems with their young pitching.

To some degree that is true, but don't discount what Doug said. There coaches THROUGHOUT their system are TOP NOTCH. One or two of their guys gets hurt they can dig a little deeper in the bag. The Reds can not.

nate
07-31-2009, 05:13 PM
So this means that Rolen can probably use his shoes from his St. Louis or Philly days, right?

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
From Mark Sheldon:


Rolen
The trade is official --- Scott Rolen and cash going from Toronto to the Reds in exchange for 3B Edwin Encarnacion, RHP Josh Roenicke and minor lg RHP Zach Stewart.

Encarnacion was pretty upset when he was told

How much cash?

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
Whoa...by my count Stewart has started a total of 7 starts at AA or higher. Only 14 total starts in his entire career...how can you expect me to get past your 1st sentence?

By looking at his scouting reports, crossing those facts with his stats and going hmm, that all looks right?

Highlifeman21
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
In 8 years people will be writing articles about how bad of a trade this was when Zach Stewart dominates the AL.

If it takes 8 years for Stewart to become something, then that should tell you something, no?

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm about neutral on the deal. I don't mind giving up EE and Roenicke, I do hate seeing us have to give up Stewart. But I don't see how you can have expected to get Rolen for EE and Roenicke; in fact, I don't really see why Toronto would want EE at all, given the fact he can't play 3b and may likely look pretty severely challenged in LF if they try him there. To me the deal is essentially Stewart for Rolen. Since we've no place to play EE, Toronto is, in a way, just doing us a favor. Best construction of it for us is that it simplifies the 2010 problem. I'd argue we now have only 1 position where we have no real option for 2010--SS. Only one thing to focus on getting in the offseason, either by trade or FA. Lineup opening 2010:
Stubbs/Heisey/Dickerson CF
Phillips, 2b
Votto, 1b
Rolen, 3b
Bruce, RF
Frazier, LF
To be acquired--SS
Hanigan, C

By one year from today, possibly plug in Alonso at 1b and move Votto to LF. Now we need to talk about what SS to acquire.

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:16 PM
Good comp. I liked the Buddy Bell years. Now it's time to find Bo Diaz.

I was going to make a Satellite joke but.....

The Bell deal was a good deal and getting Diaz to get past the Gulden, Billardello, Knicely, Trevino garbage was well done too.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 05:16 PM
Good comp. I liked the Buddy Bell years. Now it's time to find Bo Diaz.
Ah, me and an old girlfriend were gonna name our first kid Bo, she after Days of Our Lives, me after Bo Diaz. She named her first kid Bo, but I did not :D

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 05:16 PM
By looking at his scouting reports, crossing those facts with his stats and going hmm, that all looks right?

I'm just saying you deduced that Stewart is a better prospect than Wagner because he has had sucess at high levels as a starter. He's only had 7 starts at AA or above...give me something a little better than that. Believe me, I'm all ears but your first reasoning didn't sell it for me.

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:18 PM
From Mark Sheldon:



How much cash?

I'll give them $10 to help cover anything that's over budget.

I don't care how upset EE is, this is a good wake up call for him.

M2
07-31-2009, 05:18 PM
I was going to make a Satellite joke but.....

Angelic Bo Diaz is the 3B coach on my Strat team. His advice to every player who makes it over there - "Pay for cable."

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 05:20 PM
Fay's blog ... gotta love the leadership, baby ...


I asked Walt Jocketty how the Reds, who are 9 1/2 games out, could add veteran at the deadline.

"Scott Rolen makes up better for this year and next."

Jocketty also said he hopes to keep Rolen beyond 2010.

The Reds gave up a lot -- Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart. They are getting cash in the deal. I don't know how much. The Reds made the trade to do more than upgrade themselves at third base.

"The young pitching was the stumbling block," Jocketty said. "We finally gave in. We just felt that there are a lot of things that Scott will provide this club that we thought was lacking -- leadership on the field with a position player. I've had a lot of experience with him in St. Louis. I think. He will bring a lot of our club. He's still playing well. He's a good RBI guy. The guys who were in Toronto with us saw the defense he plays. He's going to be a big asset to our club.

"As I said, it was difficult to give up the young pitching. Edwin was part of it. Obviously, with Scott coming. There was a spot for Scott to play."

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:20 PM
I'll give them $10 to help cover anything that's over budget.

I don't care how upset EE is, this is a good wake up call for him.

I bet Marty B. is very happy tonight. He hated EE.

kaldaniels
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
I bet Marty B. is very happy tonight. He hated EE.

Oh crap...GG is going to pee his pants getting an ex-Redbird.

ochre
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
I wonder if Brandon Phillips is aware of the lack of leadership in the position player ranks?

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't. EE just can't make that throw from 3b to 1b, and I just don't think he'll ever be able to do it.

You're assuming that his feet were not crossed up and the ball landed in his glove. ;)

Playadlc
07-31-2009, 05:22 PM
I'll give them $10 to help cover anything that's over budget.

I don't care how upset EE is, this is a good wake up call for him.

I agree. EE needed to get out of here. For his sake and the Reds.

I, for one, am excited about watching a third basemen that can actually play third base.

It's impossible for me to say if this is a good deal or not, it completely depends on what the Reds do this off-season, but it will be a lot of fun watching Rolen play.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2009, 05:22 PM
There is one other possiblity that would make this deal look awful, Edwin taking this kick in the pants and turning into motivation to improve. It's possible all 3 of those guys turn out and if so it look really bad. Of course I don't think EE ever would have turned it around here so that was necc. but trading those 2 pretty solid caliber arms is foolish.

The only good news is that we didn't deal Alonso or Frazier but Stewart was right up there IMO, bad move.

But I will enjoy watching Rolen play defense while it lasts.

nate
07-31-2009, 05:23 PM
We finally gave in.

Way to fight (like the ambulance chasers on daytime TV), big guy!

:cool:

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 05:24 PM
Way to fight (like the ambulance chasers on daytime TV), big guy!

:cool:

Do you know what the asking price was?

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:24 PM
Angelic Bo Diaz is the 3B coach on my Strat team. His advice to every player who makes it over there - "Pay for cable."

Laughed so hard I started to cry.


Fay's blog ... gotta love the leadership, baby ...

Yes you do. The Reds need more of it and in big doses. They could use a little talent too... :p:

nate
07-31-2009, 05:26 PM
Do you know what the asking price was?

Yes, obviously.

:cool:

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 05:26 PM
Yes you do. The Reds need more of it and in big doses. They could use a little talent too... :p:

I'll take the talent. You can have all the leadership in the world, but it's not going to take a team with an 82 OPS+ anywhere near the playoffs.

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:28 PM
I'll take the talent. You can have all the leadership in the world, but it's not going to take a team with an 82 OPS+ anywhere near the playoffs.

Can't say I disagree. They do have some talent. Most of it is on the DL. :(

nate
07-31-2009, 05:28 PM
Yes you do. The Reds need more of it and in big doses. They could use a little talent too... :p:

I'll take a big dose of talent and a little leadership, please.

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:28 PM
Yes you do. The Reds need more of it and in big doses. They could use a little talent too... :p:

They could use the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time without ending up visiting Mark Mann.

NC Reds
07-31-2009, 05:28 PM
This trade blows.

I bought my first house today and was feeling really good until I logged onto Redszone. Rolen is on the backside of his career. There is no justification for this team to lose Stewart and Roenicke (and EdE) for him. If we were a game out of first, then I might have given Walt a pass.

Totally weak. Let's build around a guy in his mid-thirties with a bad back.

Team Clark
07-31-2009, 05:30 PM
They could use the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time without ending up visiting Mark Mann.

That takes an entirely different set of skills. :D

GAC
07-31-2009, 05:31 PM
GAC, you wanna counsel this guy? ;)

I can counsel quite a few on here. My sorority is growing! :p:

GAC
07-31-2009, 05:33 PM
odds are high the 2010 Rolen looks a lot more like the 07 and 08 version than the 09 one.

My Gawd flyer! Haven't you learned anything about the '09 season and the objective? Its about defense and run prevention. :p:

11larkin11
07-31-2009, 05:33 PM
I can counsel quite a few on here. My sorority is growing! :p:

Im headin to your house now, I'll be there in 5!

Blitz Dorsey
07-31-2009, 05:34 PM
Not a good trade for the Reds IMO. We give up a top pitching prospect like Stewart for an old, broken-down Rolen? I know Rolen is having a good season this year, but does anyone actually expect that to continue? Does anyone think he can keep it up next year? I sure don't. The guy has had SERIOUS health problems and is already old. He has a bad back which has killed most of his power.

I would have loved getting Rolen (due mostly to his D and somewhat because of his ability to give good at-bats) for Roenicke, Encarnacion and almost anyone except Stewart. Putting Stewart in the deal was too much! I would feel different if Rolen was just approaching 30, but he's well over 30. We are basically trading a top pitching prospect for one year of an aging Scott Rolen (2010 since this year is already a wash).

Jocketty finally wakes up and this is what he gives us???

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 05:35 PM
4:26pm: The Jays will pay some of the $4MM Rolen makes between now and the end of the season, according to Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail.

4:25pm: MLB.com's Jordan Bastian reports that Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi says Rolen asked to be traded for "personal reasons."

GAC
07-31-2009, 05:37 PM
Im headin to your house now, I'll be there in 5!


:lol:

Come on over! I just passed your house on the way to Bernies to get beer! :p:

SirFelixCat
07-31-2009, 05:39 PM
After having cooled off a bit and trying to think about this rationally, I've come to the following conclusion:

-If Rolen stays healthy the rest of this season and 2010
-If there are more moves to come (via trade or FA) before the beginning of the 2010 season

If both of those things happen, then I'm ok w/ the trade. Yes I really think that Stewart was too much to give up, but the defense immediately has a serious upgrade and it's an improvement offensively. But this simply can't be the only move, looking towards the 2010 season. It's obvious that this year is lost, but if this team follows this up with other improvements looking towards 2010 (whether in August or the offseason), then this makes sense.

I definitely am curious to watch what happens. I just pray that Walt and the FO has a plan and aren't just willy-nillying this thing. I think that's all we can all hope for.

Marc D
07-31-2009, 05:41 PM
I, for one, am excited about watching a third basemen that can actually play third base.



For a few games anyway.

Terrible trade, no other way to spin it. Hope Walt gets lucky and picks a future HOF late in the draft again because siging FA's and trading isn't going real well.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2009, 05:42 PM
Totally weak. Let's build around a guy in his mid-thirties with a bad back.

They're not building around him.

Even at 35, he's still an upgrade over Edwin, and he's batting .320. He may not have the power he once has, but he's still a hitter...this team could learn a lot from watching this guy's approach.

The injury proneness (word? Yes? No?) is a bit of a concern though

reds44
07-31-2009, 05:42 PM
After having cooled off a bit and trying to think about this rationally, I've come to the following conclusion:

Translation: After trying to convince myself I like the trade for my own health, here is what I've come up with.

Tom Servo
07-31-2009, 05:45 PM
I know I'm 30 pages late to the party but while I like Rolen and don't mind an EE-Rolen swap, I can't believe we had to give up Roenicke and Stewart as well.

11larkin11
07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
:lol:

Come on over! I just passed your house on the way to Bernies to get beer! :p:

Ha I'm actually headed to the Y to take some anger out on some weight machines. And I live right across from the pool now.

Johnny Footstool
07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
THT ranks Rolen as the #2 defensive third baseman in MLB this season. He has been in the top 3 for several years.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
Zach Stewart, Josh Roenicke, and Edwin Encarnacion for Scott Rolen? LOL! LOL! LOL! That is hilarious. Walt Jocketty is easily the worst GM the Reds have had in my lifetime. Yep, even worse than Dan O'Brien. Awful, awful trade. Please fire Jocketty soon or I'm considering dropping the Reds.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 05:49 PM
Just wait until OBM gets here...he'll calm the board down.

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 05:50 PM
THT ranks Rolen as the #2 defensive third baseman in MLB this season. He has been in the top 3 for several years.

Rolen's a Hall of Famer already, IMO, and his defense throughout his career is arguably greater than that of Brooks Robinson or Mike Schmidt.

What's so perplexing about this deal - other than what the Reds gave up, which is highly perplexing itself - is it's a type of deal that needs to be made in conjunction with several other significant deals. Sure, we can assume/hope that Rolen will be healthy in 2010 and that the third base problem is solved, but the team still needs additional pitching, it needs a left fielder and it badly needs both a shortstop and a center fielder. Many of these same holes existed this past offseason, and what we got was a big ol' helping of Willy Taveras. It's stupidity such as that which gives me heartburn.

If those needs aren't also addressed by next April, then acquiring Scott Rolen for 2010 was pointless.

Always Red
07-31-2009, 05:50 PM
Just wait until OBM gets here...he'll calm the board down.

:D

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:50 PM
If you read Fay's blog, it appears that Walt had real concerns over giving up Roenicke and Stewart but finally decided to go for it.


"The young pitching was the stumbling block," Jocketty said. "We finally gave in. We just felt that there are a lot of things that Scott will provide this club that we thought was lacking -- leadership on the field with a position player. I've had a lot of experience with him in St. Louis. I think. He will bring a lot of our club. He's still playing well. He's a good RBI guy. The guys who were in Toronto with us saw the defense he plays. He's going to be a big asset to our club.

"As I said, it was difficult to give up the young pitching. Edwin was part of it. Obviously, with Scott coming. There was a spot for Scott to play."



Hopefully Rolen will get to Cincy by Saturday's game because tonight's lineup is extremely thin--if they go 10, Bronson will be in CF batting cleanup.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
This is a pathetic trade. There's no way around it. It's a pathetic trade. Probably the worst trade I can remember in quite a while.

traderumor
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
I'd really be curious to know how many who are grieving the loss of Zach Stewart know much about him beyond "Dougdirt likes him a lot." If that is the only basis for your opinion, then I really do not see the validity of evaluating the trade based on his being in the trade. I have to plead ignorance on him beyond "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect," so I can see Rolen > EE in every way, therefore Reds just got better. Roenicke seems to be a good 1-2 inning guy in the grand scheme of things, but relievers, who knows?

And Toronto threw in some cash to help their return. I liked the idea of Rolen when the talks began, but then I liked the Taveras signing this offseason, so my track record is mixed at best.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
Any truth to the rumor that George Grande has been giggling like a schoolgirl for the past two hours and is planning a huge 10X14 "Welcome Prince Scotty" mural he can take to the airport tonight?

redsfan4445
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
4:50pm: Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star reports that the Jays will pay all of Rolen's 2009 salary, nearly $4MM.

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
If you read Fay's blog, it appears that Walt had real concerns over giving up Roenicke and Stewart but finally decided to go for it.

Hopefully Rolen will get to Cincy by Saturday's game because tonight's lineup is extremely thin--if they go 10, Bronson will be in CF batting cleanup.

Nah, he'll only bat cleanup if he's playing second base. If he's in center field, he'll be batting leadoff.

nate
07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
So, I wonder how much cash the Jays are kicking in? Somewhere between $1 and $4mm.

I'm hoping it's closer to $4mm.

nate
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
Ah, didn't see the above post. "Nearly all." Got it.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
4:50pm: Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star reports that the Jays will pay all of Rolen's 2009 salary, nearly $4MM.

Just enough to pay for Walt's last bowel movement, our current center fielder. Now that I think about it, I'm much more sanguine about this trade if it ends up being Rolen in, Encarnacion, Stewart and Roenicke to Toronto, and Taveras pushed out of the team plane into the nearest body of water.

flyer85
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
and he's batting .320.
which is a fluke

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
Nah, he'll only bat cleanup if he's playing second base. If he's in center field, he'll be batting leadoff.

My mistake, I failed Dusty 101, Illogic.

Cyclone792
07-31-2009, 05:54 PM
4:50pm: Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star reports that the Jays will pay all of Rolen's 2009 salary, nearly $4MM.

And this new batch of cash better be applied toward a worthwhile ballplayer this offseason, not Willy Taveras v2.0.

My problem with the Reds acquiring cash in deals is they often blow it on trash six months later.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2009, 05:54 PM
which is a fluke

Maybe. But it's August (tomorrow) and he's still batting .320.


This move doesn't put them over the top (obviously), but it doesn't break the farm either. It shores up (health a factor of course) for at least a year, while the young guys continue to develop.

I guess the Reds got tired of Edwin's consistant foul ups and inconsistant offense just like most of us have.

CTA513
07-31-2009, 05:55 PM
4:50pm: Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star reports that the Jays will pay all of Rolen's 2009 salary, nearly $4MM.

They need to also pay part of his 2010 salary

nate
07-31-2009, 05:55 PM
Here are the numbers on the newest Red:



Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
1996 21 PHI NL 37 146 130 10 33 7 0 4 18 0 2 13 27 .254 .322 .400 .722 90 52 4 1 0 2 0 5
1997 22 PHI NL 156 657 561 93 159 35 3 21 92 16 6 76 138 .283 .377 .469 .846 121 263 6 13 0 7 4 *5 RoY-1
1998 23 PHI NL 160 711 601 120 174 45 4 31 110 14 7 93 141 .290 .391 .532 .923 139 320 10 11 0 6 6 *5 MVP-20GG
1999 24 PHI NL 112 497 421 74 113 28 1 26 77 12 2 67 114 .268 .368 .525 .893 119 221 8 3 0 6 2 *5
2000 25 PHI NL 128 541 483 88 144 32 6 26 89 8 1 51 99 .298 .370 .551 .920 129 266 4 5 0 2 9 *5 GG
2001 26 PHI NL 151 653 554 96 160 39 1 25 107 16 5 74 127 .289 .378 .498 .876 127 276 6 13 0 12 6 *5 MVP-24GG
2002 27 TOT NL 155 667 580 89 154 29 8 31 110 8 4 72 102 .266 .357 .503 .860 129 292 22 12 0 3 4 *5 ASGGSS
2002 27 PHI NL 100 438 375 52 97 21 4 17 66 5 2 52 68 .259 .358 .472 .830 123 177 12 8 0 3 2 5
2002 27 STL NL 55 229 205 37 57 8 4 14 44 3 2 20 34 .278 .354 .561 .915 139 115 10 4 0 0 2 5
2003 28 STL NL 154 657 559 98 160 49 1 28 104 13 3 82 104 .286 .382 .528 .910 138 295 19 9 0 7 5 *5 ASGG
2004 29 STL NL 142 593 500 109 157 32 4 34 124 4 3 72 92 .314 .409 .598 1.007 157 299 8 13 1 7 5 *5 ASMVP-4GG
2005 30 STL NL 56 223 196 28 46 12 1 5 28 1 2 25 28 .235 .323 .383 .706 84 75 3 1 0 1 1 5 AS
2006 31 STL NL 142 594 521 94 154 48 1 22 95 7 4 56 69 .296 .369 .518 .887 126 270 10 9 0 8 7 *5 ASGG
2007 32 STL NL 112 441 392 55 104 24 2 8 58 5 3 37 56 .265 .331 .398 .729 89 156 13 5 0 7 2 *5
2008 33 TOR AL 115 467 408 58 107 30 3 11 50 5 0 46 71 .262 .349 .431 .780 107 176 12 10 0 3 2 *5
2009 34 TOR AL 88 373 338 52 108 29 0 8 43 4 2 26 42 .320 .370 .476 .846 123 161 2 4 0 5 1 *5
14 Seasons 14 Seasons 14 Seasons 14 Seasons 1708 7220 6244 1064 1773 439 35 280 1105 113 44 790 1210 .284 .370 .500 .870 125 3122 127 109 1 76 54
162 Game Avg. 162 Game Avg. 162 Game Avg. 162 Game Avg. 162 685 592 101 168 42 3 27 105 11 4 75 115 .284 .370 .500 .870 125 296 12 10 0 7 5

PHI (7 yrs) PHI (7 yrs) PHI (7 yrs) PHI (7 yrs) 844 3643 3125 533 880 207 19 150 559 71 25 426 714 .282 .373 .504 .877 125 1575 50 54 0 38 29
STL (6 yrs) STL (6 yrs) STL (6 yrs) STL (6 yrs) 661 2737 2373 421 678 173 13 111 453 33 17 292 383 .286 .370 .510 .879 127 1210 63 41 1 30 22
TOR (2 yrs) TOR (2 yrs) TOR (2 yrs) TOR (2 yrs) 203 840 746 110 215 59 3 19 93 9 2 72 113 .288 .358 .452 .810 114 337 14 14 0 8 3

NL (12 yrs) NL (12 yrs) NL (12 yrs) NL (12 yrs) 1505 6380 5498 954 1558 380 32 261 1012 104 42 718 1097 .283 .372 .507 .878 126 2785 113 95 1 68 51
AL (2 yrs) AL (2 yrs) AL (2 yrs) AL (2 yrs) 203 840 746 110 215 59 3 19 93 9 2 72 113 .288 .358 .452 .810 114 337 14 14 0 8 3

Puffy
07-31-2009, 05:56 PM
I don't know. I'd pretty much chew off a limb to get rid of Encarnacion. I like Roenicke, but if Stewart doesn't pan out then it's Roenicke for Rolen and that strikes me as a winner for the Reds.

This is how I see it too - I'm amazed at how many people hate this trade.

PuffyPig
07-31-2009, 05:57 PM
In my 44 years of being a Reds fan, I have not, until now, ever had the thought that the Reds were "unwatchable".

It really doesn't matter how it actually turns out, this is an incredibly ill-conceived trade.

In a year where prospects are golden and overvalued, we seemingly overpay for 1 year of a player who's a huge injury risk (albeit a good player).

I beleive this trade consitutes a spanking offense.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 05:57 PM
Zach Stewart for Scott Rolen in a bad deal. Zach Stewart + Josh Roenicke + Edwin Encarnacion is pathetic. Simply unreal. Walt Jocketty should be fired immediately.

nate
07-31-2009, 05:58 PM
I'll reiterate a thought I had in another Rolen thread earlier. This might also be a move to keep people coming out to the park this year. Scott Rolen is a name the average fan knows so maybe he'll sell a couple three tickets.

Doc. Scott
07-31-2009, 05:58 PM
From Cot's Baseball Contracts:

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html

Scott Rolen 3b
8 years/$90M (2003-10)

signed extension with St. Louis 9/02
$5M signing bonus

03:$7M, 04:$8M, 05:$11M, 06:$11M, 07:$11M, 08:$11M, 09:$11M, 10:$11M

additional $4M bonus due Rolen in 2010

$10M deferred ($2M/year from 2003 to 2007)

full no-trade clause (waived to allow trade from St. Louis 1/14/08)

performance bonuses: $50,000 each for Gold Glove & All Star selection

acquired by Toronto in trade from St. Louis 1/14/08, with Toronto paying St. Louis $1.8M and the Cardinals responsible for $4M bonus due in 2010

Tom Servo
07-31-2009, 05:59 PM
I've only been watching this stuff on TV and just found out now that at 4:00 it was rumored that Alonso was in the deal. I can't believe the board didn't explode/meltdown with even the thought of it.

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2009, 05:59 PM
Scott Rolen's numbers show one thing. He simply does not strike out nearly enough to be a Red.

dsmith421
07-31-2009, 05:59 PM
Zach Stewart for Scott Rolen in a bad deal. Zach Stewart + Josh Roenicke + Edwin Encarnacion is pathetic. Simply unreal. Walt Jocketty should be fired immediately.

Thank God you are nowhere near the levers of power in the Reds front office, and I say that as someone who is wavering between intense dislike of this deal and apathy.

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 05:59 PM
And this new batch of cash better be applied toward a worthwhile ballplayer this offseason, not Willy Taveras v2.0.

My problem with the Reds acquiring cash in deals is they often blow it on trash six months later.

Good luck with that. $55M is tied up in Arroyo, Harang, Cordero, Rolen and Phillips. Thats 20 other spots that need to be filled with about 15-20 million. We aren't getting anyone this offseason unless its in a trade and even then where will the money come from to pay him?

Matt700wlw
07-31-2009, 06:00 PM
Zach Stewart for Scott Rolen in a bad deal. Zach Stewart + Josh Roenicke + Edwin Encarnacion is pathetic. Simply unreal. Walt Jocketty should be fired immediately.

Yeah. Firing GM after GM after GM has really worked over the years....how about we actually let one stick around and implement his plan? That'd be different.

In a few years, maybe I'll be ready to fire the guy....but not 1+ year into the gig knowing his track record in St. Louis.

Doc. Scott
07-31-2009, 06:00 PM
So Rolen's contract for 2009 is covered by Toronto. That's all great and everything. But he's owed $11 million for 2010 plus this $4 million bonus that may or may not still be the responsibility of St. Louis (since it wasn't passed to Toronto when Rolen was traded there in 2008).

My point: I think this may be your "big free-agent acquisition". The Reds saved $5.125 mil for 2010 getting rid of EE plus the pro-rated portion of EE and JHJ's 2009 deals ($2.425 mil and $2 mil, respectively- according to Cot's).

A great summary of what's owed in future years: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT2r8ZtxW0_Kaw

GAC
07-31-2009, 06:01 PM
Zach Stewart for Scott Rolen in a bad deal. Zach Stewart + Josh Roenicke + Edwin Encarnacion is pathetic. Simply unreal. Walt Jocketty should be fired immediately.

But hasn't this been said before about Walt? That he uses his prospects as trade fodder.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 06:01 PM
Yeah. Firing GM after GM after GM has really worked over the years....how about we actually let one stick around and implement his plan That'd be different.

In a few years, maybe I'll be ready to fire the guy....but not 1+ year into the gig knowing his track record in St. Louis.

Walt Jocketty has a plan? If so, it stinks.

nate
07-31-2009, 06:02 PM
Scott Rolen's numbers show one thing. He simply does not strike out nearly enough to be a Red.

We have the coaches to fix that!

:cool:

Matt700wlw
07-31-2009, 06:03 PM
Walt Jocketty has a plan? If so, it stinks.

Hopefully he does. :)

We'll find out! 1+ year into the gig isn't a very big window.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2009, 06:03 PM
Zach Stewart for Scott Rolen in a bad deal. Zach Stewart + Josh Roenicke + Edwin Encarnacion is pathetic. Simply unreal. Walt Jocketty should be fired immediately.

I agree. I'm surprised more don't agree.

Walt's man crush for Rolen made him cave into a stupid deal. If you're going to dump prospects, dump Stubbs or Valaika. Not Stewart.

Just taking the $11MM off Toronto's hands should have been enough incentive. Plus, Rolen wanted traded so the Reds had leverage. Then, to cave in at the last minute? Pathetic.

If this trade was EE and just Roenicke for Rolen I would call it a bad deal. Roenicke was throwing 96/97 last night. It's not his fault that he was never really given much of a chance. Now, he will.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2009, 06:03 PM
We have the coaches to fix that!

:cool:

Maybe Rolen can play role of hitting coach :)

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 06:06 PM
Good luck with that. $55M is tied up in Arroyo, Harang, Cordero, Rolen and Phillips. Thats 20 other spots that need to be filled with about 15-20 million. We aren't getting anyone this offseason unless its in a trade and even then where will the money come from to pay him?

Hopefully they can unload one of the Krivsky all stars.

nate
07-31-2009, 06:06 PM
Maybe Rolen can play role of hitting coach :)

That's probably amongst the reasons he was acquired. The whole "leadership" and "veteran presence."

M2
07-31-2009, 06:06 PM
Rolen's a Hall of Famer already, IMO, and his defense throughout his career is arguably greater than that of Brooks Robinson or Mike Schmidt.

If he can squeeze out one more 100-RBI season, he'll have as many as George Brett and Brooks Robinson combined.

Tom Servo
07-31-2009, 06:06 PM
Walt Jocketty has a plan? If so, it stinks.
Step 1. Acquire Scott Rolen
Step 2. ??????
Step 3. World Series victory