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osuceltic
08-02-2009, 11:59 AM
I love the assumption that Greg Vaughn was leader because he yelled at people, he also brought facial hair to the team and a coffee maker. Using the same logic that makes him a leader to some I've come to the conclusion that he was also Rollie Fingers and Juan Valdez.

No one is assuming anything. The guys on that team couldn't say enough about Vaughn. They placed tremendous value on his leadership (and his bat). The fact that you discount it from your couch doesn't surprise me, but it also doesn't matter in the least.

As for this trade, time will tell. If Stewart turns out to be great and Rolen is hurt for long stretches, the Jays win. If Rolen gives the Reds a season-and-a-half (or more -- they certainly sound like they're thinking beyond 2010) of gold glove defense and consistent RH production and Stewart is just another good minor-league pitcher who couldn't translate it to the bigs, then the Reds win. And there is a whole lot of gray area in the middle.

But I know this: 2011 is an eternity away. Any team "planning" for 2011 is in trouble. The consistently successful franchises "go for it" every year. The minor leagues are for development. The majors are for the big boys. You either win or you don't. You don't get graded on a curve depending on how many home-grown guys you have or how many under-27 guys you have or anything else. The Reds just got a hell of a lot better this season and in 2010.

And anyone who dismisses the difference between Rolen and EE immediately goes into my "hopeless homer" file.

Kc61
08-02-2009, 12:01 PM
They Jays were obviously not bluffing here and likely would not have accepted lesser prospects. They didn't cave on the Halladay trade, they kept him and his salary, which shows that they weren't desperate to move veterans.

Just reading between the lines the Reds likely had to give up either Alonso or Stewart to make the deal.

In the end, their choices were likely to give up Stewart or walk from the deal. I'm disappointed they gave up Stewart but I don't think they could have just changed the package.

My only other point is that we'll never resolve this issue because there are two schools of thought on how to rebuild. Each school has merit.

But I will say that watching the Reds they absolutely needed some good, starting, professional players in the lineup. Not saying this was a great trade, I think it's questionable, but something had to be done on the major league ballfield.

Last point -- some folks think this was done for a short term boost in fan interest. If so, I'd defend it. The team has not been worth watching or even following. Part of running a team is making sure it stays somewhat relevant.

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Harnisch and Schilling had not pitched more than 100 innings when they were traded.....had they? I have not looked it up. But Schilling was a reliever first and then made a starter.

EE is no Finley i know that right now.

What i should have written was I HOPE it does not turn out like that trade.
;)

westofyou
08-02-2009, 12:16 PM
No one is assuming anything. The guys on that team couldn't say enough about Vaughn. They placed tremendous value on his leadership (and his bat). The fact that you discount it from your couch doesn't surprise me, but it also doesn't matter in the least.

As for this trade, time will tell. If Stewart turns out to be great and Rolen is hurt for long stretches, the Jays win. If Rolen gives the Reds a season-and-a-half (or more -- they certainly sound like they're thinking beyond 2010) of gold glove defense and consistent RH production and Stewart is just another good minor-league pitcher who couldn't translate it to the bigs, then the Reds win. And there is a whole lot of gray area in the middle.

But I know this: 2011 is an eternity away. Any team "planning" for 2011 is in trouble. The consistently successful franchises "go for it" every year. The minor leagues are for development. The majors are for the big boys. You either win or you don't. You don't get graded on a curve depending on how many home-grown guys you have or how many under-27 guys you have or anything else. The Reds just got a hell of a lot better this season and in 2010.

And anyone who dismisses the difference between Rolen and EE immediately goes into my "hopeless homer" file.

I'm not discounting leadership at all, just the label that Vaughn was the best Reds leader in years.

The fact that you missed that on your couch doesn't surprise me either.

VR
08-02-2009, 12:24 PM
Harnisch and Schilling had not pitched more than 100 innings when they were traded.....had they? I have not looked it up. But Schilling was a reliever first and then made a starter.

EE is no Finley i know that right now.

What i should have written was I HOPE it does not turn out like that trade.
;)

Harnisch.....350 in the minors, 300 for the Orioles

Schilling......700 in the minors, 60 for the Orioles


Stewart and Roenicke....250 combined, mostly low minors only.

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2009, 12:42 PM
Schilling sure pitched a lot of innings in the minors and i thought Pete was a reliever first as well.

Thanks for the clear information.

redsmetz
08-02-2009, 01:15 PM
The most puzzling aspect of the trade to me is that this team should be selling, not buying.

They added payroll (albeit next year) and reduced the overall assets of the team in order to get better now. That is the last thing one would expect a last place team (yes, we have sunk to the level of the Pirates) to do at the trade deadline.

I guess that means that the FO and management feel this club is still a contender, both for this year and next. Could be.

Fay did note that it is clear that Castellini will never "burn it down" and attempt to rebuild, ala the Marlins in years past and the Pirates currently. I agree with Fay's thinking here.

If he's not going to attempt a rebuild, then Castellini's only other option is to add payroll.

...or continue to tread water.

If we must have the world in black and white focus, in an "either/or" scheme, then sure we should have been selling. But the world rarely fits into such clear focus. Frankly, for all the talk of endless running in place and a culture of losing and such, it surprises me that the complexity of having to work within the constraints of a marketplace have folks lining up in one camp or another.

Frankly, I think the Marlins approach is dreadful and I say that fully aware that they've won two World Series since we have. I'm not interested in a so called "complete teardown." It's unnecessary and it will be brutal. Things aren't that black and white, IMO.

TheNext44
08-02-2009, 01:35 PM
I love the assumption that Greg Vaughn was leader because he yelled at people, he also brought facial hair to the team and a coffee maker. Using the same logic that makes him a leader to some I've come to the conclusion that he was also Rollie Fingers and Juan Valdez.

I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

However...

No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.

WVRed
08-02-2009, 01:42 PM
I'm not discounting leadership at all, just the label that Vaughn was the best Reds leader in years.

The fact that you missed that on your couch doesn't surprise me either.

Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.

nate
08-02-2009, 01:49 PM
Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.

Oddly, in Vaughn's other 13 seasons, he never "lead" his team to anything better than a 2nd place finish.

WVRed
08-02-2009, 01:49 PM
I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

However...

No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.

I never said that I thought Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at people. I do believe though that he brought to this team the same thing that Scott Rolen will end up bringing, and that is a veteran presence that the younger players will look up to.

Look at most of the successful teams in baseball and you will find a mix of veterans and youth. The Yankees have Derek Jeter. The Red Sox have David Ortiz. Even the Rays last season had Troy Percival. I really don't think we would have a position player who would likely compare.

westofyou
08-02-2009, 01:51 PM
I have stated many times before that leadership and clubhouse qualities are over-rated, that talent comes first.

However...

No offense, (that second part about the coffee and facial hair still has me laughing, btw) but I am getting frustrated with people saying that Vaughn was a leader because he yelled at players or because he picked up a player by his collar and got in his face.

No one who tells those stories is saying that soley is what made Vaughn a leader. Those are told to exemplify Vaughn's leadership, not define it. I have no idea if Vaughn really was a leader or not, but if he was, it went much further than him yelling at people.

Heck, maybe it had nothing to do with him yelling at people, maybe the people telling those stories got it wrong, but he was still a leader in other ways. I have always said that true leaders lead by example, by being smart, professional and playing the game the right way. If Vaughn was a leader, I have a feeling that had more to do with it than with his temper.

Sorry, just been reading that line too many times, I had to get that off my chest.

I've yet to hear that part, hence my inability to hook up on the Greg Vaughn best leader train. He could have been, but I want to hear more about that than he "got in your face"

westofyou
08-02-2009, 01:53 PM
Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.

Considering his power surge, his teammate Ken Caminitti and his body break down and his persona as "angry leader" I could make all sorts of assumptions too.

I liked Greg Vaughn, but he's just another Deron Johnson in Reds lore, a guy who had a monster season on a team that didn't play in the post season.

Marc D
08-02-2009, 01:59 PM
Considering that 1999 was the last time the Reds did anything significant, and Vaughn was a key member of that team and in the run the year before with San Diego should speak volumes.


Leadership is important once the talent base is in place. All the leadership in the world isn't going to fix the dearth of talent facing this organization right now.

Rolen could be able to lead and inspire men on par with Churchill, Gahndi and Roosevelt but it won't make Tavaras a good ball player.

VR
08-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Considering his power surge, his teammate Ken Caminitti and his body break down and his persona as "angry leader" I could make all sorts of assumptions too.

I liked Greg Vaughn, but he's just another Deron Johnson in Reds lore, a guy who had a monster season on a team that didn't play in the post season.

1999 was Barry Larkin's team, period. Greg Vaughn may have served as a 'sergeant at arms', and another professional, mature vet, but Lark was the leader.

kaldaniels
08-02-2009, 02:17 PM
1999 was Barry Larkin's team, period. Greg Vaughn may have served as a 'sergeant at arms', and another professional, mature vet, but Lark was the leader.

I can't imagine any of us have to knowledge to make such an assertion as above unless we were there in the clubhouse for the 1999 season. I loved Larkin and Vaughn, but to start breaking down the leadership differences between the 2 without actually being there seems pointless.

Team Clark
08-02-2009, 02:39 PM
I'll disagree here. Few pitchers come back with the velocity they once had and without that, Edinson is not all that.



I agree with you down the line on your post with the exception of the comment about Volquez. I am not sure how to look up the data, but from my experience a vast majority of pitchers who have had TJ come back as strong or STRONGER. Shoulder surgery, I see your point. TJ, I have to disagree.

Caveat Emperor
08-02-2009, 02:41 PM
This thread has reached the 1,000 post threshold. If you want to start a new discussion, feel free to in another thread.