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redhawk61
07-31-2009, 03:39 PM
According to MLB TV

GIDP
07-31-2009, 03:40 PM
ouch, hope he stays healthy

texasdave
07-31-2009, 03:41 PM
Walt has his speed dial working.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:41 PM
ill be happy as long as no homer

redhawk61
07-31-2009, 03:42 PM
O by the way I called it in the Hairston thread

GIDP
07-31-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm worried about his power and how fluxed his stats are just because of the hitting streak.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:43 PM
O by the way I called it in the Hairston thread

yes you did:thumbup:

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 03:44 PM
for who?

redhawk61
07-31-2009, 03:44 PM
and word is he has approved the trade

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 03:45 PM
im thinkin at least EdE, a mid-level prospect, and maybe a under the radar guy aka PTBNL

GIDP
07-31-2009, 03:45 PM
This deal was 5 years too late

texasdave
07-31-2009, 03:46 PM
I think Bowden tried to make this deal 5 or so years ago, but ownership nixed the deal.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:46 PM
This deal was 5 years too late

lol true but he is still an upgrade over Edwin imo

GIDP
07-31-2009, 03:47 PM
lol true but he is still an upgrade over Edwin imo

if hes healthy yes. Its a big risk though. He also needs to not regress to his sub .800 OPS hes had the least few years.

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 03:48 PM
No Homer, no Alonso, no Frazier and I'm good with this. Those three can go for Carl Crawford and we're back in business.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:48 PM
Hey just occured to me where is Halladay going?? I took it as only way Rolen goes if Halladay is leaving also.

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 03:51 PM
I guess we'll know in 9 minutes. Come onnnnn center fielder, come onnnnnnn

GIDP
07-31-2009, 03:53 PM
This isnt a this year deal either. The Reds want him for this year but mainly for next. They have to know they are out of it especially with how terrible their OF is right now.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
hopefully EdE isnt a part of this deal but with Rolen at 3rd and most likely Balentien in LF for the future we can use EdE to grab a major league ready CF or SS

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
Edwin and a minor leaguer

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 03:58 PM
Edwin and a minor leaguer for Scotty.

I'm more worried about that minor leaguer.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
hopefully EdE isnt a part of this deal but with Rolen at 3rd and most likely Balentien in LF for the future we can use EdE to grab a major league ready CF or SS

he is EDE and a minor leaguer

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
Rosenthal knows his stuff. If he doesn't name the minor leaguer, there's a good chance we haven't heard of him

REDblooded
07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9875596/MLB-trade-deadline-buzz:-Friday%27s-edition


Source: Reds get Rolen from Jays — Updated 3:49 p.m.
Toronto third baseman Scott Rolen has been traded to the Reds, one major-league source told FOXSports.com.

The deal awaits only Rolen's approval, which he is expected to give; he has a full no-trade clause. In return, the Jays will acquire third baseman Edwin Encarnacion and 2008 first-round pick Yonder Alonso, an infielder.

Rolen won a World Series while playing for current Reds general manager Walt Jocketty in St. Louis. Cincinnati officials have been looking for a right-handed hitter such as Rolen for much of the season.

Rolen is having his best year since 2006, batting .320 with eight home runs and 43 RBIs.

Acquiring Rolen gives the Reds a head start on planning for 2010, since he is already under contract for next year at $11 million. The Mariners took the same approach earlier this week, when they acquired shortstop Jack Wilson from Pittsburgh.


Sources: Red

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
HOLY CRAP. . FOX SPORTS SAID IT'S EE AND YONDER

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9875596

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
ya me too please no alonso, frazier, wood, stewart, or bailey although i wouldnt even be sad if maloney, francisco or stubbs were the minor leaguer involved

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
omg no nono
wowow
nfsadfhnisahnflsaflsdnanf noooooooooooooooo

redhawk61
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
FOX SPORTS says EE and Yonder?

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
ok well ima go hang myself now

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 04:00 PM
EE and Yonder???? Jocketty needs to be flayed alive.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
Great job we suck if its Edwin and Yonder hahahahahah

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
We can never catch a break...jesus

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 04:01 PM
Oh boy. I'll go light the torches, brb...

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
ya idk what to say anymore walt better have another move up his sleeve right now or extremely soon because this deal is looking dumber as we go

Trace's Daddy
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Holy $h!!ee%&$#t not Yonder too

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
that cant be possible there is just no way.

REDblooded
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
If this is true.... we are destined to root for a sub .500 team forever

BSUFB
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
Alonso was never going to man 1B here as long as we had Joey, and Joey is to good to say "lets just move him to LF." I like the trade. Might be the only one but o well.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
wildcat fan make sure to BYOP... bring your own pick

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 04:03 PM
I thought you couldn't trade players who were on the DL (ie Yonder)?

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:04 PM
Alonso was never going to man 1B here as long as we had Joey, and Joey is to good to say "lets just move him to LF." I like the trade. Might be the only one but o well.

If you think Edwin and Yonder for anyone other than a top flight pitcher or a stud SS is a good deal you are crazy.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:04 PM
walt better hope balentien lives up to the hype of a year or so ago and plays LF here for a long time cuz if not and alonso turns out to be as good as everyone thinks he will be I dont think walt will be a GM anywhere ever again

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:04 PM
it better not be yonder...it just better not be.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 04:05 PM
This can't be right.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:05 PM
Yea there is no way this is true.

BSUFB
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
If you think Edwin and Yonder for anyone other than a top flight pitcher or a stud SS is a good deal you are crazy.

I just really dislike EE so to me this was a trade of Yoder for Rolen. I guess I think proven vets are better then unproven minor leaguers.

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Ed Price on AOL Fanhouse says EE and Yonder not accurate...right now he's my favorite person alive

Trace's Daddy
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Can Rolen still disapprove of the trade?

Az. Reds Fan
07-31-2009, 04:06 PM
According to a Reds source, Alonso and EE is NOT accurate

ed_price#Reds source says reports of Encarnacion plus Alonso for Rolen are not accurate. We'll see...

Red in Atl
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
Unless Walt's got Dimentia, it can't be true.

Slyder
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
Alonso was never going to man 1B here as long as we had Joey, and Joey is to good to say "lets just move him to LF." I like the trade. Might be the only one but o well.

Alonso HAS to have more value than a "throw in" piece for a 34 yr third baseman with an injury history. I mean come on at least the Brewers got CC Sabathia for their man without a position (LaPorta). This absolutely blows goats balls if true. Whoever pulled the trigger needs to be marched out in front of GABP and locked in an old fashioned galley so Reds fans can come and throw rotten fruit at them. This deal is HORRIBLE anyway you slice it.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 04:09 PM
Alonso HAS to have more value than a "throw in" piece for a 38 yr third baseman with an injury history. I mean come on at least the Brewers got CC Sabathia for their man without a position (LaPorta). This absolutely blows goats balls if true. Whoever pulled the trigger needs to be marched out in front of GABP and locked in an old fashioned galley so Reds fans can come and throw rotten fruit at them. This deal is HORRIBLE anyway you slice it.

He's 34. And I doubt this is true, so people can stop freaking out and wait.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:11 PM
if the alonso and ee trade for rolen is true riccardi went deliverance on walt and made him squeal like a pig

rolenmvp
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
some of you need to calm down. EE wasnt that good anyways, He was a lousy 3rd basemen, I know rolen is old but, the guy is still a GG caliber corner infielder.

BSUFB
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
Alonso HAS to have more value than a "throw in" piece for a 38 yr third baseman with an injury history. I mean come on at least the Brewers got CC Sabathia for their man without a position (LaPorta). This absolutely blows goats balls if true. Whoever pulled the trigger needs to be marched out in front of GABP and locked in an old fashioned galley so Reds fans can come and throw rotten fruit at them. This deal is HORRIBLE anyway you slice it.

I was actually refering that EE might have been the throw in piece.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
no one is upset about EE we're upset if they traded away prolly our best prospect

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
Oh, and by the way, Alonso is eligible to be traded. According to official MLB rules:


In general, between the end of the World Series and the trade deadline at 4 p.m. EST on July 31, any players may be traded for one another provided they don't have a no-trade clause (contractually or as a result of being a 10-5 player) and were not drafted in the past year.

Not "signed" as someone mentioned earlier either here or ORG. So we couldn't trade Leake (thank God), but Alonso is fair game.

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:12 PM
can we trade gonzo and taveras for some bats and balls?

Slyder
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
He's 34. And I doubt this is true, so people can stop freaking out and wait.

My bad, missed the number on keyboard. Corrected and patiently waiting for confirmation on who the "minor leaguer" is. Still if it by some minut possibility is Alonso lets revolt and take over Cincy baseball for ourselves :D.

BSUFB
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
can we trade gonzo and taveras for some bats and balls?

We tried.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
we should riot honestly lol

BlastFurnace
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
Once again, The Reds have no plan.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
no one is upset about EE we're upset if they traded away prolly our best prospect

If Rolen doesnt start hitting for power and stay healthy I will be pretty upset.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:14 PM
ya i heard we tried to trade willy t and gonzo to the florence freedom for a bag of balls, three bats and a pack of big league chew but reds ownership was unwilling to take on more money

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:14 PM
he Reds are sending Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart to Toronto for Scott Rolen.

HOLY CRAP ITS GETTIN WORSE

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:15 PM
he Reds are sending Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart to Toronto for Scott Rolen.

HOLY CRAP ITS GETTIN WORSE

Hard to believe that when it was just initially EE and A minor leaguer

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:16 PM
Hard to believe that when it was just initially EE and A minor leaguer

thats from fay

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:16 PM
dang by the time the trade is finalized it'll be EE, votto, bruce, bailey and cueto for rolen lol

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:16 PM
thats from fay

oh no...:eek::(

CySeymour
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
If Alonso was traded, this really stinks. If you trade him, it's for a franchise SS...NOT for a 3B closer to retirement than the peak of his career.

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
ESPN's Keith Law says Yonder ISN'T part of the deal.

whewww

Brandon4MVP
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
The Reds are sending Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart to Toronto for Scott Rolen.

That's a high price to pay.

In exchange for Jerry Hairston Jr., the Reds are getting catcher Chase Weems. He was drafted in the sixth round in 2007.

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:18 PM
roenicke = future setup man, stewart = future #3 starter or closer.... :rolleyes:

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
I really am so amazingly ticked off right now.

I hope all of you that wanted Rolen so badly are pumped up.

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
wow really, ee, roenicke and stewart?

travisgrimes
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
i wanted him bad but jesus not that bad

Brandon4MVP
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
yeah that from fay

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:20 PM
I really am so amazingly ticked off right now.

I hope all of you that wanted Rolen so badly are pumped up.

I wanted him for EE and a marginal minor league player, NOT Stewart or Roenicke who is becoming one of my favorite guys..wow this sucks :thumbdown

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 04:21 PM
I am sooooooooooo angry I can barely type.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:22 PM
If the Blue Jays arent paying every bit of his contract, and giving us sexual favors for the next 6 years this is a terrible deal.

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:23 PM
this is ridiculous

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 04:23 PM
I think this is a good deal. Stewart may turn out to be good, who knows. I'm confused how a 3B who's in his 5th year here and batting barely above the Mendoza line this season, and one of the worst defensive 3B in baseball along with a bullpen guy who's pitched all of 13 innings here and is untouchable.

FlyerFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:25 PM
I think this is a good deal. Stewart may turn out to be good, who knows. I'm confused how a 3B who's in his 5th year here and batting barely above the Mendoza line this season, and one of the worst defensive 3B in baseball along with a bullpen guy who's pitched all of 13 innings here and is untouchable.

i'm not an EE guy, but i think we gave up to much along with him for rolen. everyone pray for the health of rolen

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 04:25 PM
lulz at the all the losers who complained Walt hasn't done anything.

Are you happy now that he's done something?

Awful trade, but not doing anything is actually OK sometimes. This was a time to not do anything.

Shawn_RedsFan
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
This might actually not be too bad, EE and Roenicke ok no biggie

Stewart that hurts because of his potential but if we get an injury free Rolen this could actually work out to be a decent deal. Im not a big fan of it but hey it could have been Alonso.

fewfirstchoice
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
Blue Jays must be paying most of the money in this deal to get EE, Roenicke, and Stewart. Thats alot to give up for Rolen. If Rolen stays healthy and Tor. pays alot of money I think its a win win deal for both. But other wise Im not a huge fan.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
We traded a 26 year old 3rd baseman who's only major flaw is throwing the ball, a reliever who throws 97 MPH, and a guy who has flat out dominated to minors all year as a starter and reliever for a 34 year old with a bad back and no power.

How can they seriously do this and not laugh at themselves. One of the worse trades in the history of the Reds from my POV right now. Its seriously that bad.

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
This might actually not be too bad, EE and Roenicke ok no biggie

Stewart that hurts because of his potential but if we get an injury free Rolen this could actually work out to be a decent deal. Im not a big fan of it but hey it could have been Alonso.

I'm done with my knee jerk.

I'll give this trade a chance just like every other one we make. I think Walt and the Reds are thinking 2010. . . which they should, and we still have plenty of prospects. It just sucks to think we gave up a guy who's value may never be higher for Rolen.

big boy
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I'm guessin' this is a move for next year. Rolen will at least be a stud in the field. He may never again hit like he is now.

JayBruce
07-31-2009, 04:30 PM
I think this is a good deal. Stewart may turn out to be good, who knows. I'm confused how a 3B who's in his 5th year here and batting barely above the Mendoza line this season, and one of the worst defensive 3B in baseball along with a bullpen guy who's pitched all of 13 innings here and is untouchable.

Because this team is not a contender; not this year or next. Rolen won't be here when the Reds actually have a team that can contend. He's an up-grade over EE, obviously, but giving up anything of relevance for a 34 year old injury-prone 3rd baseman with a bad contract is not a smart move for a team like the Reds. This is a worthless trade. We gave up our top pitching prospect for a guy who might be able to help us win 80 games the next couple of years...whoop-dee friggin' do.

Walt has a hard-on for Rolen, and he always has. Plus, he was probably under pressure from our dolt owner (who can't wrap his tiny brain around the fact that his sucks) to do something.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
they are thinking 2010 but they didnt spend any money last offseason, and the money the spend it on was so terrible. So not 2010 will come around they will have these same terrible players, and scott rolen.

2011 comes and we are still terrible and now not only dont have one of our best pitching prospects, we are lacking a big time power arm that didnt have many miles on it, and we are probably looking at having no 3rd baseman. Mainly because we will trade Todd Frazier for Aaron Rowand.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 04:35 PM
We traded a 26 year old 3rd baseman who's only major flaw is throwing the ball, a reliever who throws 97 MPH, and a guy who has flat out dominated to minors all year as a starter and reliever for a 34 year old with a bad back and no power.

How can they seriously do this and not laugh at themselves. One of the worse trades in the history of the Reds from my POV right now. Its seriously that bad.

His .200 batting average isn't a flaw?

It's amazing. People rail on the guys we have year after year, but then come trade deadline we make a move for a LEGITIMATE player and its a big deal. I'm interested to see how this trade turns out.

AccordinglyReds
07-31-2009, 04:36 PM
I am pissed.

EE, Roenicke, AND Stewart?

OMG.

WildcatFan
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
His .200 batting average isn't a flaw?

It's amazing. People rail on the guys we have year after year, but then come trade deadline we make a move for a LEGITIMATE player and its a big deal. I'm interested to see how this trade turns out.

I don't think it's EE that they're concerned about. And by they, I mean we.

I'm glad Rolen's here though, and hopefully I'll be even more happy after he careers it next year en route to the Central title

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
His .200 batting average isn't a flaw?

It's amazing. People rail on the guys we have year after year, but then come trade deadline we make a move for a LEGITIMATE player and its a big deal. I'm interested to see how this trade turns out.

Id rather go by his career numbers than the ones of this year that easily could have been affected by the wrist they said he hurt in spring training.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:43 PM
Im going to bet Rolen makes at least 1 DL trip before the season ends.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 04:49 PM
I don't think it's EE that they're concerned about. And by they, I mean we.

I'm glad Rolen's here though, and hopefully I'll be even more happy after he careers it next year en route to the Central title

Eh, Stewart looks like a decent pitcher. Roenike is one of the dime a dozen relief pitching promotions we've made every year that fans get a hard on for, but when they give up a bad inning, everyone is all over them. He's no different than Burton, Bray, Lincoln, or anyone else that people put down as the "future of the Reds bullpen" after a whopping dozen or so innings in the majors.

Who knows if Stewart will turn out to be a decent pitcher or not? Hell I've barely heard his name mentioned on this board this year, I had to go look up what he's even done in the minors. He's pitched a handful of innings in Triple A, and was great in Double A, but who isn't? Darryl Thompson was too.

I'll gladly admit its a bust trade if the guy turns out to be a great pitcher, but sheesh, everyone here while railing on the organization, completely overrates the players we have. All I have to do is look back at the infamous Kearns/Lopez trade to see all I need to know about the over reaction of fans over a trade. It was supposedly one of the worst trades in baseball history at the time, and it turned out to be little more than a footnote in franchise history.

FreelFanatic
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Step off the ledge people. Zach Stewart is a PROSPECT. Give someone with actual baseball knowledge (like the Reds' front office, as opposed to us, a bunch of armchair GM's) a little credit.

demas863
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Can you say Buddy Bell?

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Would you guys trade a 34 year old 3rd baseman with a bad back if I told you you could get a power arm, a 26 year old 3rd baseman .800+ OPS bat, and a pitcher that throws 91-96 sinker and has a GO/AO ratio of Brandon Webb.

Hell yea you would.

BluegrassRedleg
07-31-2009, 04:51 PM
This deal is dependent on what else they have cooking, IMO. If there's nothing else to follow, it seems a bit ridiculous, although I am thankful I've witnessed EE's last game in a Cincinnati uniform.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:52 PM
Step off the ledge people. Zach Stewart is a PROSPECT. Give someone with actual baseball knowledge (like the Reds' front office, as opposed to us, a bunch of armchair GM's) a little credit.

Yonder is a prospect also maybe we should have dealt him for Jarrad Washburn.

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 04:54 PM
WOOT!

No more EE:)

I dont care what happens. More likely were still going to suck next year. But at least i wont have to still watch EE while were doing it!

Good riddance.


The only thing we can do is hope we spend some money this off season and rolen stays hot. If we do that everyone will love this trade.

BuckeyeRed27
07-31-2009, 04:57 PM
I don't mind losing EE.
Roenicke is like every other 12-15th pitcher in every other organization.
Stewart might be a tough loss as he appears to have done well.

Overall I think its worth the risk. If Rolen plays well his impact next year is greater than any of the three players we gave up.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:58 PM
WOOT!

No more EE:)

I dont care what happens. More likely were still going to suck next year. But at least i wont have to still watch EE while were doing it!

Good riddance.


The only thing we can do is hope we spend some money this off season and rolen stays hot. If we do that everyone will love this trade.

I love this attitude.

Carin4Narron
07-31-2009, 04:58 PM
Can you say Buddy Bell? Buddy Bell wasn't that bad as a Red. Sabo was just a nice fluke who showed Bell the door to Houston.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:59 PM
How did we get better today? Are we now a 7 game below .500 team?

CySeymour
07-31-2009, 05:05 PM
How did we get better today? Are we now a 7 game below .500 team?

Exactly. This team has way too many holes to fill, and trading one of your bargaining chips, Stewart, for an aging third baseman is a poor handling of resources.

This is kind of like when WJ traded Haren for Mulder. The proven vet for the up and comer. Opps!

But, on the flip side, at least the Reds flipped one of their high perfoming minor leaguers for something. Too many times in recent history, they've just let them players burn out or show their true colors in the bigs, then not get anything for them.

jnewm777
07-31-2009, 05:09 PM
I like this move not so much in terms of production (because we're going nowhere this year), but in terms of adding a guy who plays the game the right way (hard and fundementally sound) and will demand the same of his teammates. Since accountability hasn't come from the manager's office since at least Jack McKeon's tenure, it might at least come from within the clubhouse.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:10 PM
Exactly. This team has way too many holes to fill, and trading one of your bargaining chips, Stewart, for an aging third baseman is a poor handling of resources.

This is kind of like when WJ traded Haren for Mulder. The proven vet for the up and comer. Opps!

But, on the flip side, at least the Reds flipped one of their high perfoming minor leaguers for something. Too many times in recent history, they've just let them players burn out or show their true colors in the bigs, then not get anything for them.

Honestly I think I would have rather taken my chances with the high performing minor leaguers unless its for something a little more proven.

Giving up a MLB bat, one of our better reliever prospects and probably our best pitching prospect over all is such a brutal punch in the gut.

CySeymour
07-31-2009, 05:11 PM
Honestly I think I would have rather taken my chances with the high performing minor leaguers unless its for something a little more proven.

Giving up a MLB bat, one of our better reliever prospects and probably our best pitching prospect over all is such a brutal punch in the gut.

Yep...I agree.

And for me, Roenicke is the one I will lose the least sleep over. I liked him, but middle innings relievers are about the easiest spot to fill, and the most volotile as far as year to year perfomances.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
The whole package I have problems with. I was reluctant for Edwin just because I didnt trust Rolens health. Adding 2 ML arms to the deal and one who has the upside that could be through the roof is pouring the salt into the wounds.

Id wonder if a better pitching prospect was dealt this deadline. We honestly could have just dealt Cueto 2.0 away. I'm seriously that worried about this deal.

PhillipsHead
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
Wow...I am not pleased with this trade....

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:19 PM
I love this attitude.

it's called reality.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
it's called reality.

You hate edwin so much you are ok with trading our best pitching prospect.

Its like breakin up with a girl friend by getting married then divorced.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:25 PM
Jocketty also said he hopes to keep Rolen beyond 2010.

I'm not getting any more excited. I see Griffey 2.0

jnewm777
07-31-2009, 05:30 PM
Jocketty also said he hopes to keep Rolen beyond 2010.

I'm not getting any more excited. I see Griffey 2.0

Perhaps he means as his next manager.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:30 PM
Not only did we trade Rolen to be the RBI guy we also are going to bat him 5th according to Dusty.

Anyone else want to go to bat for how good of a manger Dusty is? Given better options he still choses to pick the bad ones.

CySeymour
07-31-2009, 05:31 PM
Jocketty also said he hopes to keep Rolen beyond 2010.

I'm not getting any more excited. I see Griffey 2.0

Yep. I think the bottem line is, this deal didn't really make them better or worse. Just treading water again.



I also haven't seen any mention of a physical being required for the deal to go down. If that is true, then Jocketty has really lost his mind!

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:34 PM
. Adding 2 ML arms to the deal and one who has the upside that could be through the roof is pouring the salt into the wounds.

.

The blue jays werent interested in Just EE. Nobody would be interested in JUST ee.


I like this move not so much in terms of production (because we're going nowhere this year), but in terms of adding a guy who plays the game the right way (hard and fundementally sound) and will demand the same of his teammates. Since accountability hasn't come from the manager's office since at least Jack McKeon's tenure, it might at least come from within the clubhouse.

Good point. It is a great plus to the club house! We all know this club needs that.

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:38 PM
Yep. I think the bottem line is, this deal didn't really make them better or worse. Just treading water again.



!

Ehh i disagree. Short term the team is definitely better.

Short term in a nutshell we replaced a Crap Gloved struggling atp 3b man. For a great gloved Hot as hell atp 3b man.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:39 PM
I didnt know you thought so much of Rosales. Beceause hes going to be the one playing there when Rolen is on a rehab assignment.

DannyB
07-31-2009, 05:40 PM
Not only did we trade Rolen to be the RBI guy we also are going to bat him 5th according to Dusty.

Anyone else want to go to bat for how good of a manger Dusty is? Given better options he still choses to pick the bad ones.

Its going to be hard to be the RBI man when theres no Rs to BI

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:44 PM
i do like rosales. ^^ :thumbup:

And good thing you can see the future.

anybody can get hurt anytime. Your point is null.

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:44 PM
Its going to be hard to be the RBI man when theres no Rs to BI

one bat at a time. Thats all they can do.

Jr's Boy
07-31-2009, 05:48 PM
per Mark Sheldon MLB.com Cincinnati dealt third baseman Edwin Encarnacion, reliever Josh Roenicke and Minor League right-handed pitcher Zach Stewart. The Reds will also receive an undisclosed amount of cash from Toronto to offset some of Rolen's salary. He is making $11 million this season and is due to make $11 million in 2010.

Redeye fly
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
Call me not crazy about this deal. I just don't understand why it was made. I'm sorry, but this year is shot. Making a trade for Rolen in his prime would not have turned around this team this year. That said, he's not in his prime. How much longer is he going to play? Or more to the point, if he does play in 2010 and a couple years beyond, how productive and healthy will he be?

That said, I don't mind losing Edwin. I do however mind losing 2 pitchers who might have amounted to something, so we can add one decent but not elite bat to an anemic offense in a season where it seems the only remaining realistic goal is to stay out of last place in the division.:thumbdown

BigPoppa
07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
FWIW, the Blue Jays fans don't seem to be dancing in the streets over this deal, either. Just some quick observations I've seen on the interweb.

bgwilly31
07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
per Mark Sheldon MLB.com Cincinnati dealt third baseman Edwin Encarnacion, reliever Josh Roenicke and Minor League right-handed pitcher Zach Stewart. The Reds will also receive an undisclosed amount of cash from Toronto to offset some of Rolen's salary. He is making $11 million this season and is due to make $11 million in 2010.


Well thats good.

Im starting to like this trade.

This team is close. With some healthiness, a couple more moves int he off season, and an attitude change we could have a pretty good chance in 2k10.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
We only got 4 million in the deal. So we traded Edwin, Roenicke, and Stewart, and 7 million for Rolen.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:53 PM
FWIW, the Blue Jays fans don't seem to be dancing in the streets over this deal, either. Just some quick observations I've seen on the interweb.

If you are reading MLB.coms forums or ESPNs you are probably seeing guys like Bigwilly posting.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 06:02 PM
Cianide pills on the left guys. Sheesh. Some people in here need a new box of tampax or something. :eek:

I know its not popular to actually like this trade and I can see the viewpoint of those who don't. 1 1/2 years for a guy probably past his prime for players who aren't that and *may* be good.

Personally, I'm tired of all the maybe's and hopes that someone will pan out to be good. Here's what we know right now: Rolen is batting .320. Encarnacion is batting .200, and somehow in every year he's been here while we're "waiting" for him to break out, his OBP have went down each full year he's been here. Roenike has barely been in the majors as a bullpen arm. Stewarts barely been in Triple A, another bullpen pitcher.

I mean, the best way to sum it is up is how the AP report reads:

"The 34-year-old Rolen is a five-time All-Star. He was the 1997 NL Rookie of the Year with Philadelphia and helped St. Louis win the 2006 World Series.

The 26-year-old Encarnacion is an inconsistent hitter and an erratic fielder. He led the team in errors last season with 23, and missed two months of this season with a chipped bone in his left wrist. Encarnacion is batting .209 with five homers and 16 RBI.

Roenicke didn't have a record in 11 appearances with the Reds. He had a 2.70 ERA in two stints with Cincinnati this season.

The Blue Jays also got right-hander Zach Stewart, who was promoted to Triple-A Louisville during this season and had two saves in nine appearances. "

No, its not going to put us in the playoffs or anything, but I like the fact that at least we have a legitimate player in our lineup not named Joey Votto. He's immediately the second best hitter in our lineup besides Votto, and I like that. Damn, I've almost forgotten about having guys in our lineup that actually have some VALUE and aren't players that are non tradable crap, or minor league roster fill ins.

If anything, I think thats the biggest thing. Just having someone LEGITIMATE in your lineup, a proven player. Not guys you signed to a minor league deal during the offseason. Not guys you made stupid contracts for like Alex Gonzalez and Willy Taveras.

Damn, if anything at all its some morale to this crap franchise that we actually have a real baseball player here. Just because you have a roster full of prospects every year doesn't mean you'll be good. The Pirates always trade the few good players they have every. single. year. And every single year they are in last place.

I'm just glad to have someone here, who is a proven player, and right now is hittihng well and playing great baseball.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 06:03 PM
Edwin is not a .206 hitter and im tired of everyone acting like hes going to hit .206 for the rest of his life.

kfm
07-31-2009, 06:06 PM
This just proves how clueless Walt is and what a lousy general manager he is. This is a trade you make when you are one player away from winning it all or at least making it to the playoffs. How anyone let alone an MLB general manager could think this trade is a good idea, is beyond me. Walt blew trading Dunn last year and got lucky to get Masset for Griffey. So many people on this board have defended Walt and somehow blamed Dusty for every idiotic roster decision this club has made. This proves that Walt and Dusty are birds of a feather and that Walt is as clueless a GM as Dusty is about making out a lineup card. So now at least we all know that the GM of this team is Walt Jocketty. I think this also means, there is very little chance that Walt fires dusty because they seem to be of like minds. I can't even explain how much this deal annoys me. Stewart has simply dominated this year and to trade away good young pitching for a 34 year old with a bad back who has not met an organization that he can get along with for too long is just stupid. Thanks Walt, you have officially confirmed what I knew all along that you are a big part of the Reds' problem.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 06:11 PM
Edwin is not a .206 hitter and im tired of everyone acting like hes going to hit .206 for the rest of his life.

He is this year and He is the worst defensive 3rd baseman in baseball. I'm not a fan of the trade. I think we gave up too much. Would have done EE, Roenicke and another C prospect. Hated that Stewart was in it. But at least I don't have to watch him killing the team on defense anymore (and offense this year).

texasdave
07-31-2009, 06:17 PM
You can go back to sleep now, Walt. You have done enough damage. If it was Rolen for EdE great. Rolen for EdE and Roenicke okay. Rolen for EdE, Roenicke and Stewart stinks on ice. Walt "Jokeman" Jocketty. I hope he's proud of this one.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm out of this thread for a while. Have fun guys.

Mutaman
07-31-2009, 06:18 PM
So for the past month its been DO SOMETHING WALT, DO ANYTHING!!! So now he does something and the same people are--- oh its too high a price to pay. Whimper whine.

Sorry, but assuming this was all that was out there it had too be made. The last two weeks proved that, we could no longer stand pat. WE get a real honest to goodness baseball player who knows how to win. I love EE but it doesn't look like it was ever going to happen. Roeneke threw a fast pitch with no movement on it. And I don't know anymore about Stewart than anyone else around here.

The Banana Man cost us a decade and it will take a long time too clean up his mess. Walt has a proven track record and we need to give him time to straighten things out. This may not have been an even trade, but it had to be made.

Redeye fly
07-31-2009, 06:22 PM
Yep...I agree.

And for me, Roenicke is the one I will lose the least sleep over. I liked him, but middle innings relievers are about the easiest spot to fill, and the most volotile as far as year to year perfomances.

True, but then again that doesn't mean Roenicke would have remained a middle reliever. Chances are he would have elevated himself to setup or even closer at some point once Cordero was gone if he succeeded in his current role. He and Nick Masset had the requisite "stuff" to make that type of a move.

Personally, I don't mind seeing Edwin go at all, though I do understand he had some value. The only downside is unless you put a guy like a Frazier at third, I don't know if there's a legitimate young third baseman in the system to eventually take Rolen's place. Plus, with Rolen's age in comparison to Edwin's, you did just speed up the time table when you would need to look at having a viable young third base prospect.

I guess we've got the kid down there Francisco, but he shows power but no plate discipline, which could get him eaten alive in the majors. Obviously, we've already been down the Rosales path.

redsfanmia
07-31-2009, 06:31 PM
The thing that is unknown is how Rolen is in the clubhouse. If Rolen is a leader who is going to come in and change the culture its a great deal. I think Edwin is a never will be, a guy who is always going to be on the edge of a really good player but never a really good player. I do know that Rolen would have turned the double play last night that Edwin did not and led to 4 runs.

Redeye fly
07-31-2009, 06:40 PM
So for the past month its been DO SOMETHING WALT, DO ANYTHING!!! So now he does something and the same people are--- oh its too high a price to pay. Whimper whine.

Sorry, but assuming this was all that was out there it had too be made. The last two weeks proved that, we could no longer stand pat. WE get a real honest to goodness baseball player who knows how to win. I love EE but it doesn't look like it was ever going to happen. Roeneke threw a fast pitch with no movement on it. And I don't know anymore about Stewart than anyone else around here.

The Banana Man cost us a decade and it will take a long time too clean up his mess. Walt has a proven track record and we need to give him time to straighten things out. This may not have been an even trade, but it had to be made.

I don't know if Stewart would have amounted to anything or not. I do know that the Reds haven't been "pitching rich" by any stretch of the imagination, so yeah I'm not a big fan of trading away a pitcher who might appear to be something.

My big thing is, again, why now? One "honest to goodness baseball player who knows how to win" is really not going to make a difference this year. The Reds will still finish below .500 and still maybe finish above the Pirates in the division. I could understand the deal if we were in second or third place and 4 games behind the Cardinals, and competing for the wild card. But we're not. We're not going to be after getting Rolen either. He's not the type to carry a lineup on his back, especially at this point in his career.

Will having him on the team help next year? I'd imagine it will. But it will take more than him to make much of a difference.

I still see it, as was mentioned in another thread, as treading water or sitting on the fence... i.e. too reluctant to go with a full youth movement, and not having the resources and/or will to truly get the parts they need to build a winner.

Rolen's a nice player. He was a nicer player 8 years ago, but he's still a nice player. I'm just not convinced he's a player the Reds should have traded for at this point.

Jerome
07-31-2009, 06:40 PM
So for the past month its been DO SOMETHING WALT, DO ANYTHING!!! So now he does something and the same people are--- oh its too high a price to pay. Whimper whine.

Sorry, but assuming this was all that was out there it had too be made. The last two weeks proved that, we could no longer stand pat. WE get a real honest to goodness baseball player who knows how to win. I love EE but it doesn't look like it was ever going to happen. Roeneke threw a fast pitch with no movement on it. And I don't know anymore about Stewart than anyone else around here.

The Banana Man cost us a decade and it will take a long time too clean up his mess. Walt has a proven track record and we need to give him time to straighten things out. This may not have been an even trade, but it had to be made.

Completely agree, and would go so far to say that this wasn't an even trade. We got better. Edwin hasn't contributed anything for a looong time. The next Roenicke will appear tomorrow. Stewart, oh darn. We upgraded our offense, defense and clubhouse leadership immediately. I don't care that we threw down some money. Better than inking 2-3 guys of Taveras/Hairston quality to multi-year contracts.

BRM13
07-31-2009, 07:06 PM
Completely agree, and would go so far to say that this wasn't an even trade. We got better. Edwin hasn't contributed anything for a looong time. The next Roenicke will appear tomorrow. Stewart, oh darn. We upgraded our offense, defense and clubhouse leadership immediately. I don't care that we threw down some money. Better than inking 2-3 guys of Taveras/Hairston quality to multi-year contracts.

I agree that giving Rolen the money is better than giving it to Taveras/Hairston but is that really the hurdle we've fallen to? This is a very risky move for the Reds because it probably significantly reduces their financial flexibility in the offseason. I have wanted the Reds to acquire Rolen since he played for the Phillies and I'll enjoy seeing a good player on the field, but this move does not seem like its part of a patient, 'develop the kids ' plan. It strikes me as a desparate attempt to finish over .500 in 2009.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:07 PM
Can someone change the title of this thread that includes who Rolen was traded for in the first post or two. Nobody wants to sift through 200 posts just to find that information out.

BRM13
07-31-2009, 07:11 PM
I wonder if Marty B is the Red's GM now? ;) It seems we've gotten rid of his two least favorite players in the past year: Dunn and EE. Who's next on his whipping boy list? I'd say that Marty and Walt think similarly about what they like in players, so Marty's publicly stated views give us some insight into Walt's private views.

Fon Duc Tow
07-31-2009, 07:13 PM
I like the trade.

Tomorrow never comes.

Reds fans should know this by now.

Va Red Fan
07-31-2009, 07:22 PM
OK, really over reacting.

What do we know for sure?
1. EE was never going to be the player Cincy needed at 3rd. He is not consistent with a bat and has a hard time throwing from 3rd to 1st.
2. Cincy is in serious need of a clubhouse leader. The Reds need a dependable bat to wrap around our younger plaers. The Reds need a true defensive 3rd baseman.
3. Scott Rolen, even though he is past his prime, is still answers all of number 2.
4. While we as fans who keep up with the organization as a whole had big hopes for the pitchers dealt, only one of them has even put on a Cincy uniform and that was for 11 innings. They may live up to our former hopes, but they may never become regular ML players.

This was a move to improve the club for the rest of the year and for next year. The Reds will be a better team next season with a healthy Rolen at 3rd than with EE at 3rd, Roenicke as a possibility in the pen and Stewart still in the minors.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 07:29 PM
I'm out of this thread for a while. Have fun guys.

Chill man, take a walk or something. You seem to be getting way bent out of shape just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you and yelling that this is armageddon or something.


Here are some comments I saw on various Blue Jays board:

"JP's plan is to keep everyone confused.

Since he didn't trade Halladay, he should be sending a message that he plans to contend in 2010. Opening up a hole on 3rd base by trading Rolen for Encarnacion (horrible fielder and a guy who's looking to hit a 5 run homer every time up) doesn't send that message. Adding a couple of bullpen prospects doesn't either, since the bullpens actually one of his strengths. "

From a Blue Jays blog:

Update - Hugo: The trade is Rolen for Edwin Encarnacion, Zach Stewart, and Josh Roenicke. Roenicke and Stewart are reasonably good relief arms (both righthanded) who profile as average- to above-average major-league relievers, with Stewart being the slightly better regarded. Stewart did a bit of starting at the lower levels earlier this season but that experiment seems to be over.

Although Encarnacion is a big downgrade on defense (and, this season, offense), money was clearly the name of the game for the Jays. They saved $3.5 million this year and even more next season, where Rolen was due $11 M and Edwin will only be in his first arbitration year. If Encarnacion can hit as well as he did last year (his improved walk rate this season is a lone bright spot so far), he could be a useful player.

Since apparently we are "competing" next year, think we'll use the money saved on other players? I could see us using it to resign Scutaro and Barajas - that's something.

3rd Update - Hugo: According to Griffin, we are paying Rolen's salary for the rest of the year. In the immortal words of Lando Calrissian, this deal is getting worse all the time."


Once again, just shows my point. No fan ever seems to be happy.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 07:34 PM
Stewart starting wasnt abandoned. They were limiting his innings. Thats been confirmed more than once.

People are seriously undervaluing how important Zach Stewart is. He has had flat out insane numbers, and its not a flash in the pan. Its legit stuff. I'm talking he has a really strong chance to be another Cueto. Stewart has 2 plus pitches and plus command and had a very good sinker. He isnt just a average bullpen. Hes a high leverage arm with a really good shot at being a really good starter. Absolutely insane to include him in this deal.

Va Red Fan
07-31-2009, 07:36 PM
Stewart starting wasnt abandoned. They were limiting his innings. Thats been confirmed more than once.

People are seriously undervaluing how important Zach Stewart is. He has had flat out insane numbers, and its not a flash in the pan. Its legit stuff. I'm talking he has a really strong chance to be another Cueto. Stewart has 2 plus pitches and plus command and had a very good sinker. He isnt just a average bullpen. Hes a high leverage arm with a really good shot at being a really good starter. Absolutely insane to include him in this deal.


How many "can't miss" prospects have we had, especially pitchers, who miss horribly. Stewart is not a sure thing - we know we have improved the offense, defense and clubhouse with Rolen. That's a risk I'm willing to take. And we are not paying for Rolen this year - even better.

xavr1
07-31-2009, 07:38 PM
I like the trade.

Tomorrow never comes.

Reds fans should know this by now.

I tend to agree. While I think its generally a bad idea for a team nearly 10 games out of first to ever trade for a 34 year old vet with a history of injury, I don't get as worked up about dealing prospects. Prospects are just that: prospects. There is no rule that these guys are ever going to amount to what we expect. Homer Bailey is exhibit A. He was "cant miss." And all he has done is miss. Yes yes I know he still has a lot of time to prove himself. My point is simply that it is not a guarantee that he ever will. Nor is it a guarantee that anyone we traded will ever amount to anything in the major leagues. Every team in MLB has a list a mile long of prospects who dazzled in the minors and never did a thing at the next level.

Again, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the deal. But my main grievance lies in trading for an aged vet whose best years are behind him, not "giving up our future" or some such nonsense.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:39 PM
If you don't understand how horrible this trade was for the REDS and how it sets them back and the incompetence of the front office for making this trade, you don't understand how good Zach Stewart is right now.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 07:41 PM
How many "can't miss" prospects have we had, especially pitchers, who miss horribly. Stewart is not a sure thing - we know we have improved the offense, defense and clubhouse with Rolen. That's a risk I'm willing to take. And we are not paying for Rolen this year - even better.

Im not saying dont trade Stewart but he was the best pitcher moved this dead line, and the most advanced for sure. You just dont trade someone like Stewart unless you are going to get absolutely blown away with an offer. I dont even care about Edwin for Rolen, and if we had to give up Ronicke also I could live with it, but Stewart has more value than Rolen alone, and if he fails all you are missing out on is 1 season of Rolen, and we all know Rolens problems.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 07:43 PM
Add insult to injury Rolen is going to bat 5th.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 07:46 PM
Darryl Thompson had some of the most ridiculous statistics as a starter in double A I can remember from a Reds pitcher. Then the guy turned out to be not so great moving up, before he got injured.

It's just funny reading both sides of the coin here. Some Reds fans are saying he's a future 2 or 3 starter. Blue Jays fans point out he wasn't listed as one of the top 10 prospects in the organization, and projects as a future average or above average reliever.

It always happens. I'm going through some of the Blue Jays blogs here and reading things, and most aren't happy. Most aren't happy here either. Really, what does that say about the complete overvaluing of prospects by fans? Every team has the next Lincecum in their franchise somewhere, at least from the responses of each of their respective fanbases.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 07:48 PM
Daryl Thompson had an injury history before he put up those stats also. He was already recovering from a surgery before we traded for him from the Nationals.

Stewart would easily be this teams 2nd best prospect right now behind Yonder. If they came out with a ranking right now that included this years stats and scouting reports he would be #2.

Az. Reds Fan
07-31-2009, 07:58 PM
I apologize if this has already been brought up, while I'm not a fan of this deal, there is something else that really ticks me off. And it's this quote by Jocketty...

"The young pitching was the stumbling block," Jocketty said. "We finally gave in. We just felt that there are a lot of things that Scott will provide this club that we thought was lacking -- leadership on the field with a position player. I've had a lot of experience with him in St. Louis. I think. He will bring a lot of our club. He's still playing well. He's a good RBI guy. The guys who were in Toronto with us saw the defense he plays. He's going to be a big asset to our club.

"As I said, it was difficult to give up the young pitching. Edwin was part of it. Obviously, with Scott coming. There was a spot for Scott to play."

Are you kidding me? Walt...you finally GAVE in?? Toronto knew Rolen wanted out, and they waited and waited, knowing that Jocketty had some serious man-love for Rolen and eventually would give in to their demands, then they waited some more...knowing what the outcome would be. Then 15 minutes before the deadline, probably right before Ricciardi said "all right, Rolen wants out, lets take EE and Roenicke and cut our loses" Guess who calls...yup, Jocketty, saying "all right, we'll give you Stewart as well, we just really want Scott, but can you please pay for the rest of his salary this year".

At that point, Ricciardi probably fell down laughing uncontrollably and could barely muster enough breath to say OK.

As everyone has been saying Stewart is still only a prospect and hasn't proved anything, but I really believe that if Jocketty didn't "give in" first, Ricciardi would have agreed to a lesser package, of course that's only pure conjucture on my part.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:01 PM
Daryl Thompson had an injury history before he put up those stats also. He was already recovering from a surgery before we traded for him from the Nationals.

Stewart would easily be this teams 2nd best prospect right now behind Yonder. If they came out with a ranking right now that included this years stats and scouting reports he would be #2.

Okay, so really, what do you expet Stewart to do? We've had numerous #2 prospects, if thats what you think he is. We've had #1 prospects. What have they gone on to do?

I mean, you're reacting as if we got destroyed in this trade, yet on the Blue Jays side, they're not reacting like it. Which shows this isn't the absolute Armaggedon trade you make it out to be. If it was Alonso, sure, I would agree. But I'm not going to cry like a baby over losing two bullpen pitchers, one who's barely played in the majors and one who's barely played in Triple A.

If this Stewart guy turns out to be an awesome starter and Rolen is worthless here, I'll gladly declare this trade a bust. But after seeing hyped prospect after hyped prospect come through here as if they're God's gift to baseball, I'm not convinced.

If we made a similar deal a couple years ago, not for a bullpen arm, but say Homer Bailey, one of the top prospects in all of baseball at the time, people would have went absolutely NUTS. But if he performed the way he had here after that trade, I doubt many would be ticked. Much better projected players have busted than this guy. I'll wait and see how it pans out before bashing the trade, its stupid.

BRM13
07-31-2009, 08:17 PM
I mean, you're reacting as if we got destroyed in this trade, yet on the Blue Jays side, they're not reacting like it. Which shows this isn't the absolute Armaggedon trade you make it out to be. If it was Alonso, sure, I would agree. But I'm not going to cry like a baby over losing two bullpen pitchers, one who's barely played in the majors and one who's barely played in Triple A.

If this Stewart guy turns out to be an awesome starter and Rolen is worthless here, I'll gladly declare this trade a bust. But after seeing hyped prospect after hyped prospect come through here as if they're God's gift to baseball, I'm not convinced.


Most people (on both the Reds and Blue Jays sides) look at Rolen as the 28-year old Rolen. I think that explains the reaction on the Blue Jays side. But he is not that guy anymore and the Reds only control the 34 year old version, at a high price, for one more year. The BJs now control EE for one year and Roenicke and Stewart for 6 years. That has a lot of upside for the Blue Jays, not so much for the Reds. The Reds realistic years to compete for the playoffs start next year and continue for a while after that. That is why it is more consistent with a long term plan for the Reds to be adding upside potential to the organization, not trading it to improve their infield defense for the next year and a couple of months.

As for the hyped prospects, I think that most of the hyping in the past was done by Jim Bowden. I think the Red's prospects are a bit more legitimate than that now.

steig
07-31-2009, 08:25 PM
i really dislike this deal. If you are building for the future you don't go and get a 34 year old 3rd baseman. The only way this deal makes sense is if the Reds plan on being big spenders in the off season. They would have to make a push for Holiday and a high price starter to go the direction that the Rolen deal pushes us. Otherwise this is a waste of a deal to appease stupid fans and put the Reds further behind for the future.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 08:28 PM
Okay, so really, what do you expet Stewart to do? We've had numerous #2 prospects, if thats what you think he is. We've had #1 prospects. What have they gone on to do?

I mean, you're reacting as if we got destroyed in this trade, yet on the Blue Jays side, they're not reacting like it. Which shows this isn't the absolute Armaggedon trade you make it out to be. If it was Alonso, sure, I would agree. But I'm not going to cry like a baby over losing two bullpen pitchers, one who's barely played in the majors and one who's barely played in Triple A.

If this Stewart guy turns out to be an awesome starter and Rolen is worthless here, I'll gladly declare this trade a bust. But after seeing hyped prospect after hyped prospect come through here as if they're God's gift to baseball, I'm not convinced.

If we made a similar deal a couple years ago, not for a bullpen arm, but say Homer Bailey, one of the top prospects in all of baseball at the time, people would have went absolutely NUTS. But if he performed the way he had here after that trade, I doubt many would be ticked. Much better projected players have busted than this guy. I'll wait and see how it pans out before bashing the trade, its stupid.
I know more about Reds prospects than some blue jay fan does im pretty sure.

Lets put it this way
1 Yonder
2 Stewart
3 Frazier

None of those guys are someone I would trade for Rolen straight up. Stewart is a place of need. We traded him for Rolen who is a good player, if healthy, isnt this amazing star anymore. We have guys who can replace him in the minors. Frazier is a year away. Now hes probably more like a never will see the majors as a Red. Its just a big fallout though the system.

Stewart is a potential number 1 starter and at worst a big time back of the bullpen reliever. His stuff is very good and his numbers matched the stuff. Control, 2 plus pitches, and a great GO/AO ratio. Its a full package. The debate is if hes the good releiver or the good starter. I tend to think hes close to be the starter.

Also number 2 prospects of 2009 are nothing compared to the number 2 prospects of the early 2000s and late 90s. Its completely different level of prospects down there now and those number 2 guys of years past wouldn't even be in our top 10 now.

gilpdawg
07-31-2009, 08:30 PM
The whole package I have problems with. I was reluctant for Edwin just because I didnt trust Rolens health. Adding 2 ML arms to the deal and one who has the upside that could be through the roof is pouring the salt into the wounds.

Id wonder if a better pitching prospect was dealt this deadline. We honestly could have just dealt Cueto 2.0 away. I'm seriously that worried about this deal.

Stewart's peripheral stats don't even touch what Cueto did at similar levels.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:33 PM
I apologize if this has already been brought up, while I'm not a fan of this deal, there is something else that really ticks me off. And it's this quote by Jocketty...

"The young pitching was the stumbling block," Jocketty said. "We finally gave in. We just felt that there are a lot of things that Scott will provide this club that we thought was lacking -- leadership on the field with a position player. I've had a lot of experience with him in St. Louis. I think. He will bring a lot of our club. He's still playing well. He's a good RBI guy. The guys who were in Toronto with us saw the defense he plays. He's going to be a big asset to our club.

"As I said, it was difficult to give up the young pitching. Edwin was part of it. Obviously, with Scott coming. There was a spot for Scott to play."

Are you kidding me? Walt...you finally GAVE in?? Toronto knew Rolen wanted out, and they waited and waited, knowing that Jocketty had some serious man-love for Rolen and eventually would give in to their demands, then they waited some more...knowing what the outcome would be. Then 15 minutes before the deadline, probably right before Ricciardi said "all right, Rolen wants out, lets take EE and Roenicke and cut our loses" Guess who calls...yup, Jocketty, saying "all right, we'll give you Stewart as well, we just really want Scott, but can you please pay for the rest of his salary this year".

At that point, Ricciardi probably fell down laughing uncontrollably and could barely muster enough breath to say OK.

As everyone has been saying Stewart is still only a prospect and hasn't proved anything, but I really believe that if Jocketty didn't "give in" first, Ricciardi would have agreed to a lesser package, of course that's only pure conjucture on my part.

Talk about the ultimate sell-low, buy-high.

Walt....the only race you've positioned this team for is the cellar-dwelling spiral to being the worst team in baseball. You just lost 3 of 4 to the Padres who were 4-20 in July before coming to town. The season's over....build the club's future and sign free agents over the Winter without giving up your best prospect right now. You're senile Walt, and St. Louis is proving that they didn't need you to win, and you're proving that the REDS need you to lose, as Krivsky had them improving in every area of the organization.

Castellini is clueless. He doesn't care about winning.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 08:34 PM
Stewart's peripheral stats don't even touch what Cueto did at similar levels.

How do you figure? If anything they are probably better considering the GB%

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:34 PM
Stewart's peripheral stats don't even touch what Cueto did at similar levels.

Toss away the stats. This isn't some fantasy league.

Watch Stewart pitch in person. Then make an opinion about him.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:35 PM
I know more about Reds prospects than some blue jay fan does im pretty sure.

Lets put it this way
1 Yonder
2 Stewart
3 Frazier

None of those guys are someone I would trade for Rolen straight up. Stewart is a place of need. We traded him for Rolen who is a good player, if healthy, isnt this amazing star anymore. We have guys who can replace him in the minors. Frazier is a year away. Now hes probably more like a never will see the majors as a Red. Its just a big fallout though the system.

Stewart is a potential number 1 starter and at worst a big time back of the bullpen reliever. His stuff is very good and his numbers matched the stuff. Control, 2 plus pitches, and a great GO/AO ratio. Its a full package. The debate is if hes the good releiver or the good starter. I tend to think hes close to be the starter.

Also number 2 prospects of 2009 are nothing compared to the number 2 prospects of the early 2000s and late 90s. Its completely different level of prospects down there now and those number 2 guys of years past wouldn't even be in our top 10 now.

How many starts has Stewart had this year? Just wondering. It's amazing how someone is projected as a number one starter in the MAJOR LEAGUES when all he's done is bullpen work. In levels below Triple A BTW. Oh, and before the year, Baseball America didn't even consider him a top 10 prospect in the organization, but suddenly he's awesome. But its glad to know since he's put in some irrelevant bullpen work in at Double A that we just traded the next Lincecum.

Don't mind me, I'll just wait and see how he turns out in two years.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:38 PM
How many starts has Stewart had this year? Just wondering. It's amazing how someone is projected as a number one starter in the MAJOR LEAGUES when all he's done is bullpen work. In levels below Triple A BTW. Oh, and before the year, Baseball America didn't even consider him a top 10 prospect in the organization, but suddenly he's awesome. But its glad to know since he's put in some irrelevant bullpen work in at Double A that we just traded the next Lincecum.

Don't mind me, I'll just wait and see how he turns out in two years.

Put down the magazines, get off the internet, get out of your house, and watch some baseball. You live in Louisville. Get to the games and watch them play in person. Nobody, except a buffoon, would trade Stewart for Rolen straight up.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:40 PM
This deal is smack dab a desperation move by Walt to try to put together a run at the playoffs in 2010, while sacrificing the future of the club for the next 10 years because he won't be here to worry about it.

Don't think for a second that Walt is done sacrificing the future of the Club, because he isn't. Anyone who can make this bone-headed of a move has other bone-headed moves up his sleeve so he can try to win in 2010.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 08:42 PM
How many starts has Stewart had this year? Just wondering. It's amazing how someone is projected as a number one starter in the MAJOR LEAGUES when all he's done is bullpen work. In levels below Triple A BTW. Oh, and before the year, Baseball America didn't even consider him a top 10 prospect in the organization, but suddenly he's awesome. But its glad to know since he's put in some irrelevant bullpen work in at Double A that we just traded the next Lincecum.

Don't mind me, I'll just wait and see how he turns out in two years.

BA made their list before this year. They assumed he was going to be a reliever. The Reds used him as a starter then he started rolling off these numbers.

Stewart has started 14 games. 80 Inning of an ERA under 2 while walking 18 people and giving up 2 home runs total. The guy has a chance to be Brandon Webb. I wish I was kidding. I'm not saying you dont trade him I'm just saying you dont trade him unless you know if hes a starter or the reliever. If hes a starter hes instantly a great pitching prospect. They traded him as if he cant start. Its just either they dont listen to their scouts or were so infatuated with Rolen from the early 2000s that they didnt care. Im going to suggest they were just blinded by what Rolen used to be for the Cardinals.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:46 PM
Watching someone pitch doesn't make you an authority on a pitcher dude. Everyone has different opinions. What's the problem with actually seeing how he turns out? The guy has done mostly bullpen work in the minors, yet some are saying this guy is the next top starter all of a sudden? Um .. ok. If he start and is a shutdown starter, I'll gladly admit this trade was a bust. If he's a starter and is getting rocked, which is completely possible since he's never pitched at a high level, especially at a high level AS a starter, we'll see how genius some of these armchair experts are.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 08:51 PM
He has more innings as a starter than as a reliever. He also was drafted in 08 and already in AAA. Not many guys are able to do that.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Watching someone pitch doesn't make you an authority on a pitcher dude. Everyone has different opinions. What's the problem with actually seeing how he turns out? The guy has done mostly bullpen work in the minors, yet some are saying this guy is the next top starter all of a sudden? Um .. ok. If he start and is a shutdown starter, I'll gladly admit this trade was a bust. If he's a starter and is getting rocked, which is completely possible since he's never pitched at a high level, especially at a high level AS a starter, we'll see how genius some of these armchair experts are.

Watching someone pitch in person makes anyone an authority over someone who hasn't. I'd trust a 14-year old to give me an evaluation about a pitcher he's seen in person over someone who hasn't seen him pitch and is just using some internet site to figure it out or has just watched him on TV or something.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:01 PM
I'll wait and see how he turns out. Is there a problem with that? Bailey was supposedly the most sure thing ever. He wasn't #2 in the organization, he was like #1 or #2 up there with Lincecum in all of baseball. There are no absolutes in grading prospects.

Stewart was rated 75th in all of baseball on this midseason list:

http://firstinning.com/?p=362

I just wonder how many of the fans on the 74 players above him would react the same way to a trade? It's obvious that not all of the guys on this list, probably a very small amount, turn out to be even average major leaguers.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:01 PM
It's amazing how we all forget how great Ryan Wagner was supposed to be...made it to the big league team in the [U]same[U] year he was drafted. Yes, Stewart made a huge jump this year, but that does not mean he is the next great pitcher in the Bigs.
I agree, he does look good on paper, but so do many pitchers in A, AA, and AAA.

So, in essence, we traded Roenicke -a potential good middle reliever, who never will be a closer in majors - and Stewart - a prospect, at best - (EE had to be involved b/c there is no place for him...I wish him the best and hope he goes on a tear for years in AL) for a VERY solid third basemen that is known for being a very solid hitter. He is the veteran leadership this team needs. This will allow the minor league third basemen to see how the game is supposed to be played. He also has expressed interest in playing for Cincinnati in the past. So, the combo of coming to Cincy and playing for Walt again, we can only hope that makes him work harder than ever to lead this team next year.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:02 PM
I'll wait and see how he turns out. Is there a problem with that? Bailey was supposedly the most sure thing ever. He wasn't #2 in the organization, he was like #1 or #2 up there with Lincecum in all of baseball. There are no absolutes in grading prospects.

Stewart was rated 75th in all of baseball on this midseason list:

http://firstinning.com/?p=362

I just wonder how many of the fans on the 74 players above him would react the same way to a trade? It's obvious that not all of the guys on this list, probably a very small amount, turn out to be even average major leaguers.


Great point, my point exactly with Ryan Wagner!

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:04 PM
I'm done trying to explain to you guys who Zach Stewart is right now. I'm getting way too worked up again.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:05 PM
Watching someone pitch in person makes anyone an authority over someone who hasn't. I'd trust a 14-year old to give me an evaluation about a pitcher he's seen in person over someone who hasn't seen him pitch and is just using some internet site to figure it out or has just watched him on TV or something.

I'm not even evaluating him. I'm simply saying there's a ton of prospects every year that everyone's own fanbase think are untouchable great prospects, and if most even turn out to be league average, thats a plus.

Is it a crime to want to wait to see how this trade pans out? Why is it impossible to think once he gets to the majors, ta-da, he's not the pitcher in the majors he was in the minors? I mean, it's happened with higher rated prospects (cought Homer cough.)

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:06 PM
Wagner never had a future as a starter. He was always a reliever. Not a good comp just based on that fact.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm done trying to explain to you guys who Zach Stewart is right now. I'm getting way too worked up again.

Why are you getting so worked up? Because someone doesn't agree with you? Sheesh.

I've already said in two years if the guy turns out to be great, I'll gladly admit this is a horrible trade. Judging a trade isn't make or break when its done, it takes years to judge it. How many people blew a gasket at the infamous Nationals trade? Turns out, every participant in that trade turned out to be worthless for both teams, only with the Nationals putting their respective guys in ridiculous contracts when it was done, so maybe got the worse end of it on that. But at the time, practically all fans acted as if it was one of the worst 2 or 3 trades in baseball HISTORY.

I just don't see the problem with just waiting to see what happens. I like having a legitimate player in the lineup. No one knows how the pitchers we traded will turn out, no matter how many times someone watched them or whatever else. No one knows. So why get so upset about this? I understand the team sucks and is going through a ridiculous losing streak, so thats why people are going nuts, but everyone here is a Reds fan with different opinions, and is upset with all the losing. But it's not like anyone here can change the moves they make.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:15 PM
Its not that you guys dont agree you just say "well hes a prospect" "this other guy sucked". Its not completely directed at you but I feel like im talking to a brick wall some times. It gets frustrating.

My feeling on this trade is that we will either be losers, or we will come out barely even and that involved Stewart blowing at an elbow multiple times.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:16 PM
Wagner never had a future as a starter. He was always a reliever. Not a good comp just based on that fact.

I really don't care what position we talk about...you obviously missed the point. There is ALWAYS a can't miss prospect that never amounts to anything and we end up forgetting about him in a couple years. For Zach Stewart's sake I hope that is not the case, but why not trade 1 potential very good pitcher (1 other middle reliever and a 3B we don't need) for a very solid 3B and veteran leader. I don't get why this has to be such a bad trade because we bettered our lineup for next year.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:18 PM
I really don't care what position we talk about...you obviously missed the point. There is ALWAYS a can't miss prospect that never amounts to anything and we end up forgetting about him in a couple years. For Zach Stewart's sake I hope that is not the case, but why not trade 1 potential very good pitcher (1 other middle reliever and a 3B we don't need) for a very solid 3B and veteran leader. I don't get why this has to be such a bad trade because we bettered our lineup for next year.

Because the only thing solid about rolen right now is that we can count on him to play in 2/3 of his games, and hes making 11 million.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:23 PM
Okay dude, whatever you say. i'm just saying you seem to underestimate how many times big time prospects turn out to be busts. And this guy barely qualifies as one, he's not on many, if any, overall baseball lists. Yet we had a guy like Bailey who was at the top of all of them in all of baseball.

Let me ask, when Homer was first called up, did you have any idea he would perform as badly as he has so far? If we traded Bailey during his era of being a top prospect, the fans would have imploded. Same with Ryan Wagner really, the year he burned through the minors and started the same year he was drafted. He was untouchable.

The problem with this is, so many organizations have so many "untouchable" prospects, and only a small percentage of them turn out to even be long term major league players. Hell, we have one right now in the minors, Darnell McDonald, who is the classic burnout case. We have another, Laynce Nix, who was a top "untouchable" with the Rangers just a marginal outfielder.

All I'm saying is, you seem to underestimate the amount of players that any franchise thinks are the future. You say we're ruining the future, but you have no idea how he'll turn out. Yet you say the only way we win this deal is with injuries, as if he couldn't get called up and have a 5 or 6 ERA. How is that not possible?

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:25 PM
This isnt about trading a prospect. Its about getting fair value for him. Something we certainly didnt get. I dont know how to put it in any other terms. Any prospect can flame out, but some times you keep prospects and they pan out. If you get fair value you should trade them. I simply feel that not only did we not get fair value we really really didnt get fair value. Stewart is someone you include in a deal for a cliff lee or a victor martinez. If you are going to dump a top prospect you better get more in return than a injury plagued 34 year old. It just a bad situation to put yourself in.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:38 PM
This isnt about trading a prospect. Its about getting fair value for him. Something we certainly didnt get. I dont know how to put it in any other terms. Any prospect can flame out, but some times you keep prospects and they pan out. If you get fair value you should trade them. I simply feel that not only did we not get fair value we really really didnt get fair value. Stewart is someone you include in a deal for a cliff lee or a victor martinez. If you are going to dump a top prospect you better get more in return than a injury plagued 34 year old. It just a bad situation to put yourself in.

That's the problem,I've tried to point out. You see an injury plauged 34 year old 3B. The Blue Jays see a rejuvinated player who recovered and adapted after his injuries and is one of the better players in baseball. The way you talk, you act as if we just traded for David Segui or something, not a guy who's batted .320 this year.

And the fact you think fair value for a guy who's never started above the double A level is of two of the BEST players in the game at their position is pretty ridiculous.

I posted that list earlier of the top 100 midseason prospects, I'm sure there's more out there, but let me pose and even better question then by that standard. Would you trade, say Joey Votto, for a guy a lot higher in the list. Like Kyle Drabek, who the Jays wanted, who's up around 30th? And maybe a couple of throw in prospects?

I'm just wondering if you would do that. Because you're basically saying a guy I've not seen on any top MLB prospect lists, the only acceptable trade would be for one of the top players in baseball.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:49 PM
Did you just compare the 25 year old Joey Votto to the 34 year old Scott Rolen? Id trade Votto for no one outside of Grady Sizemore, and thats only because we have Alonso in our system. BTW we traded more than just Stewart. We added a 26 year old .800+ OPS bat and another hard throwing reliever who touches the high 90s with pretty good stats from the minors as well.

To think Stewart was 75 on a list after 1 season of minor league ball says quite a lot about his value. Also Stewarts and Drabeks numbers aren't exactly night and day, that is if you just want to go by the numbers. Stewart has him beat in more than 1 area, and they both were doing it at the same level and in the same league at times.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:59 PM
I'll wait and see how he turns out. Is there a problem with that? Bailey was supposedly the most sure thing ever. He wasn't #2 in the organization, he was like #1 or #2 up there with Lincecum in all of baseball. There are no absolutes in grading prospects.

Stewart was rated 75th in all of baseball on this midseason list:

http://firstinning.com/?p=362

I just wonder how many of the fans on the 74 players above him would react the same way to a trade? It's obvious that not all of the guys on this list, probably a very small amount, turn out to be even average major leaguers.

You need to read www.redsminorleagues.com more often.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 10:04 PM
Did you just compare the 25 year old Joey Votto to the 34 year old Scott Rolen? Id trade Votto for no one outside of Grady Sizemore, and thats only because we have Alonso in our system. BTW we traded more than just Stewart. We added a 26 year old .800+ OPS bat and another hard throwing reliever who touches the high 90s with pretty good stats from the minors as well.

To think Stewart was 75 on a list after 1 season of minor league ball says quite a lot about his value. Also Stewarts and Drabeks numbers aren't exactly night and day, that is if you just want to go by the numbers. Stewart has him beat in more than 1 area, and they both were doing it at the same level and in the same league at times.

I wasn't comparing to Rolen, I was comparing him to Lee or Martinez, since you said the only players you would trade Stewart for were some of the top players at their position.

You just proved my point by saying you would expect another franchise to take a prospect of that value for that type of top player in return, but a higher rated prospect than that for our top player, you wouldn't do. Thanks, thats all that needs to be said.

It's no wonder most of this board hates this trade. The most anyone comes up with all year is retarded crap like "hey maybe we can trade Harang and Taveras for Holliday!" Not surprising at all since most think like this. People always think we're entitled to be able to get some of the top players in the game for our junk players all year, so not surprising at all.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:05 PM
Since August of last year.
EE
August .234
Sept. .239
Apr. 09 .127

In 2 weeks he would have been on the interstate again. Add that to his defense and he had to go. But we still gave up too much for him. That I will agree with you on. But he is not even close to the player Scott Rolen is.

Girevik
07-31-2009, 10:23 PM
Now, in general I'm in favor of trading minor leaguers for established vets. I think teams have a tendancy to overvalue thier ML guys based on potential, just as NFL teams seems to think that a 3rd round draft pick is GOLD compared to a guy who has proven he can play in the league.

That said, I HATE this trade. I'm no EE fan and am not sorry to see him go, but even though Reneke is a marginal prospect he and especially Stewart are the type of guy I wantwd to see the Reds pick up in exchange for vets today, not the other way around. I know they wanted Rolen for his leaderhip and locker room presence, but how much does this guy really have left in the tank? I haven't seen how much cash the Reds are getting out of the deal yet, and maybe that will make me feel a little better, but I don't see how this trade helps the Reds 2-4 years down the road which is unfortunately where they need to be looking.

So sayeth the newbie.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:26 PM
I wasn't comparing to Rolen, I was comparing him to Lee or Martinez, since you said the only players you would trade Stewart for were some of the top players at their position.

You just proved my point by saying you would expect another franchise to take a prospect of that value for that type of top player in return, but a higher rated prospect than that for our top player, you wouldn't do. Thanks, thats all that needs to be said.

It's no wonder most of this board hates this trade. The most anyone comes up with all year is retarded crap like "hey maybe we can trade Harang and Taveras for Holliday!" Not surprising at all since most think like this. People always think we're entitled to be able to get some of the top players in the game for our junk players all year, so not surprising at all.

Id include more than just Stewart in deals for Lee and Martinez. Now saying Stewart Edwin and Ronicke for Rolen is dumb is equated to saying Harang and Taveras for Holliday.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 10:36 PM
Okay, I'll wait two years, then you can come back to me when he's some stud #2 or #3 starter and tell me you told me so. I'll gladly wait. You going to admit you're wrong though if in two years he's been rocked in MLB or Triple A appearances?

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:40 PM
I hated giving up Stewart. He probably will be a stud #2 or #3 starter. But I'm tired of waiting 2 years. Reds have been waiting for too long. It will be nice to have a Major League 3b for a change. Now just wish we had a ML OF and SS. But Stewart will be great. Now if Walt can get us a LF, SS we will be ok.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:45 PM
And they couldn't give away Arroyo, Harang, Cordero so if you can't do that and go all young, then you might as well try to make a run at it in 2010 and hope those guys start to pitch better.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:48 PM
Okay, I'll wait two years, then you can come back to me when he's some stud #2 or #3 starter and tell me you told me so. I'll gladly wait. You going to admit you're wrong though if in two years he's been rocked in MLB or Triple A appearances?

I didnt say its a lock. I'm simply saying they are trading their best pitching prospect as if hes just some toss in. Its absolutely insane. Its almost as insane as throwing Kazmir in for Victor Zambrano. Luckily we did get a 3rd baseman even though odds are hes only going to play a little over 100 games a year.

If he doesnt turn into a number 2 or a 3 they still undervalued him.

We took on so much risk here and its not even funny. Money, injury risk and took a chance to assume Zach Stewart isnt going to be as good as his numbers have been.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:49 PM
I hated giving up Stewart. He probably will be a stud #2 or #3 starter. But I'm tired of waiting 2 years. Reds have been waiting for too long. It will be nice to have a Major League 3b for a change. Now just wish we had a ML OF and SS. But Stewart will be great. Now if Walt can get us a LF, SS we will be ok.

We didnt have any money to do it in the last offseason what makes you think that with them adding payroll in rolen they will be able to do anything like this?

Girevik
07-31-2009, 10:55 PM
I didnt say its a lock. I'm simply saying they are trading their best pitching prospect as if hes just some toss in. Its absolutely insane. Its almost as insane as throwing Kazmir in for Victor Zambrano. Luckily we did get a 3rd baseman even though odds are hes only going to play a little over 100 games a year.

If he doesnt turn into a number 2 or a 3 they still undervalued him.

We took on so much risk here and its not even funny. Money, injury risk and took a chance to assume Zach Stewart isnt going to be as good as his numbers have been.

I agree 100%. The Reds took on all the risk here. Best case is that the get an above average 3rd baseman for 3 years and the prospects bomb...all Tornoto is out is maybe some money. Wost case, Roneke turns into a quailty MR and Stewart becomes a solid #3 starter and Rolen spends as much time on the DL than on the active roster. The Reds are taking all the risk here.

Ok, I guess I take that back a little. BEST case is that Rolen becomes the locer room presense that causes all the young guys to live up to thier potiential, but still....the risk is on our end.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:59 PM
We didnt have any money to do it in the last offseason what makes you think that with them adding payroll in rolen they will be able to do anything like this?

Just hoping I guess. I just figured that they can't get rid of Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero so if you can't get rid of them then you might as well hope they can turn it around and pitch better and make a few moves and a run at it in 2010. I'm not much on riding the fence, either sell everyone and go young or try to make a run next year. Since we couldn't get rid of our overpriced vets, then might as well make a run at it next year. But giving up Stewart is tough, I think he will be great.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 11:33 PM
I didnt say its a lock. I'm simply saying they are trading their best pitching prospect as if hes just some toss in. Its absolutely insane. Its almost as insane as throwing Kazmir in for Victor Zambrano. Luckily we did get a 3rd baseman even though odds are hes only going to play a little over 100 games a year.

If he doesnt turn into a number 2 or a 3 they still undervalued him.

We took on so much risk here and its not even funny. Money, injury risk and took a chance to assume Zach Stewart isnt going to be as good as his numbers have been.

Nice out there. "Even if he doesn't turn out to be everything I say he will be that I'm complaining about, they still messed up!" You pretty much guarantee yourself a way of saying you're not wrong no matter what, just because you say. Good job. I still don't see how it hasn't crossed your mind that you could be the one overvaluing him. I just looked at Baseball America's midseason top 50. He's not on it.

So if he's the #2 prospect in the organization, you're wrong on the account of how the minor league system is so much better than it has been in the past, speaking about past Reds busts only because the system is weak. Either that, or you're overvaluing him. You can't have it both ways. If our minor league system is so great, then why can't we get more than one player in the top 50?

flash
07-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Another aspect of this trade is that Rolen is a straight shooter. He's already gotten one manager fired in Philedelphia. Jockety knows him from St. Louis. I think Rolen and Jockety will be having some future conversations on just what is happening in the Reds clubhouse. Maybe that is the reason Lincoln was signed to his crazy contract which hasn't worked out.

Just thinking out loud.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:41 PM
Nice out there. "Even if he doesn't turn out to be everything I say he will be that I'm complaining about, they still messed up!" You pretty much guarantee yourself a way of saying you're not wrong no matter what, just because you say. Good job. I still don't see how it hasn't crossed your mind that you could be the one overvaluing him. I just looked at Baseball America's midseason top 50. He's not on it.

So if he's the #2 prospect in the organization, you're wrong on the account of how the minor league system is so much better than it has been in the past, speaking about past Reds busts only because the system is weak. Either that, or you're overvaluing him. You can't have it both ways. If our minor league system is so great, then why can't we get more than one player in the top 50?
No if im wrong about him thats fine ill admit it. My whole point the whole time is that they undervalued him. If the Reds traded Votto for Joe Blanton like many people wanted them to, and Votto sucked it doesnt mean they made a great trade it means they got lucky and Votto busted and nowthey dont look as bad as they should. The trade value of Stewart is much more than Rolen. They should have only been trading Stewart for more talent than the left overs of Scott Rolen.

Lets say Stewarts value was 8 on a scale of 10, I feel they traded him at a value of 4. Phillies got Cliff Lee and didnt give up a single player better than Stewart.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 11:51 PM
No if im wrong about him thats fine ill admit it. My whole point the whole time is that they undervalued him. If the Reds traded Votto for Joe Blanton like many people wanted them to, and Votto sucked it doesnt mean they made a great trade it means they got lucky and Votto busted and nowthey dont look as bad as they should. The trade value of Stewart is much more than Rolen. They should have only been trading Stewart for more talent than the left overs of Scott Rolen.

Lets say Stewarts value was 8 on a scale of 10, I feel they traded him at a value of 4. Phillies got Cliff Lee and didnt give up a single player better than Stewart.

You're saying all this, but its all your opinion. How do you know what Stewarts trade value is? I mean I just showed a list and he's 75 on that. Not in BA's top 50. These are midseason lists you said were different than before the year.

Every team thinks their top prospects value is higher than they are. Apparently plenty of Blue Jays fans don't share your sentiment about what his value is. I mean, if this was so obvious to everyone, wouldn't their response be something along the lines of "omg, we just hosed the Reds, wow!!" Not, "well I don't know about this ..."

The level of what you project this guys trade value to be doesn't seemed to be echoed by any other fans or people in baseball. So believe it or not, maybe you're overvaluing him.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:52 PM
My opinion is terrible to bad the stats dont back me up also. Kyle Drabek and Zach Stewart if anything are very comparable prospect and the Phillies wouldnt even give him up for Halladay. What does that say for us?

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:55 PM
Every person in the media is saying how bad of a deal this is for us. Fangraphs, Rotoworld, MLB.com, Keith law. Just do down the list. Everyone thinks we got robbed. Only people who dont are dumb Blue Jay fans and Reds fans who hate Edwin so much they would have cheered no matter who he was traded for.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 12:31 AM
My opinion is terrible to bad the stats dont back me up also. Kyle Drabek and Zach Stewart if anything are very comparable prospect and the Phillies wouldnt even give him up for Halladay. What does that say for us?

They would have traded him, just not all 4 of their top prospects, which the Jays wanted.

This is getting nowhere. I just disagree that this is a huge disaster trade that some are making it out to be. I don't know how Stewart will turn out with Toronto, all I know is this team is badly in need of a RH bat, and badly in need of a legitimate player.

I'm glad to have one of the best position players this generation on the team, who's done pretty well for himself this year. I don't think he's washed up like some are making him to be. He's batting .320, which is actually higher than any year he's ever played, and his OBP is right on his career average. Plus he's great for defense, and the clubhouse as well possibly.

Be my guest to keep grinding your teeth over this, its not going to change anything. I'll just hope to finally have a guy in the lineup who can actually get some hits.

Aces Wild
08-01-2009, 12:48 AM
Another great move Walt :rolleyes:..........just keep them coming and maybe we can have you, Dusty, Bob out of town by the end of 2010. I love Rolen, but giving them Stewart was insane. This is the type of crap that has Reds fans changing allegiance by the masses.


15 years of crap and counting!!!!! Thanks Walt.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:07 AM
No if im wrong about him thats fine ill admit it. My whole point the whole time is that they undervalued him. If the Reds traded Votto for Joe Blanton like many people wanted them to, and Votto sucked it doesnt mean they made a great trade it means they got lucky and Votto busted and nowthey dont look as bad as they should. The trade value of Stewart is much more than Rolen. They should have only been trading Stewart for more talent than the left overs of Scott Rolen.

Lets say Stewarts value was 8 on a scale of 10, I feel they traded him at a value of 4. Phillies got Cliff Lee and didnt give up a single player better than Stewart.

Maybe the FO sees Stewart's value right now as being 8/10 but they for some reason see his value in MLB as being 3/10. He is a converted reliever that is shooting up prospect boards based on a handful of starts, and he just had his innings cut short. Until he can log an entire season as a starter, he is nothing more than a relief pitcher, and a starting pitching prospect- not a lock-down TOR arm.

And, to reference a post on the ORG, maybe this trade was made with the simple objective of improving the MLB team now. A huge amount of fans don't care one bit about any prospect in the Reds system. Does this trade make the Reds better in 2009 and 2010? Probably. Does it make them better in the future? No way to know- EE will assuredly not be missed, so it depends on if the two prospects become anything that the Reds will not be able to replace or replicate.

1. Homer Bailey, rhp
2. Jay Bruce, of
3. Travis Wood, lhp
4. B.J. Szymanski, of
5. Chris Denorfia, of
6. Rafael Gonzalez, rhp
7. Miguel Perez, c
8. Tyler Pelland, lhp
9. Joey Votto, 1b
10. Travis Chick, rhp

These are the Reds top 10 prospects from BA on Nov. 30, 2005. I see one legitimate top talent in Votto, two potential MLB talents in Bailey and Bruce (who I believe in, for the record), someone who is still a top prospect in Travis Wood, and six also-rans. This is being shown just to try and keep the gnashing and wringing to a minimum. Stewart could be a great pitcher, but he could also be Ryan Wagner part deux. Maybe the FO is showing foresight, and more positive moves are on the horizon. WJ seemed to show no allegiance to AGon in his FSN interview today...

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:11 AM
Id take those top 3 still and be quite happy with it BTW.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:17 AM
Also Stewart is on the same level of Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Cueto, and Yonder. Thats how good of a prospect is was and how he will be viewed very soon. If he pans out its one thing but his prospect value is going to be as high as you can get soon. Toronto got a the best pitcher they could and they didnt even have to deal their best pitcher. God I wish we could pull moves like that.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:29 AM
Id take those top 3 still and be quite happy with it BTW.

Considering that BP and BA both did not have Zach Stewart ranked anywhere near "top prospect" status before the season, I won't lose a whole lot of sleep tonight.

And if you would take a pitcher with a MLB ERA of 6.77, WHIP of 1.713, ERA+ of 67, 1.03K/BB, and OPS against of .854 then be my guest. Homer Bailey is the perfect example of how you can be as good as you want in the minors but it doesn't mean you will be good in MLB. I won't even take the time to make the same argument about Bruce. And Wood is still nothing as it relates directly to the big league team.

If the Nationals had the #1 farm system in baseball right now, they would still have a record of 32-71 because their MLB team stinks.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:33 AM
Considering that BP and BA both did not have Zach Stewart ranked anywhere near "top prospect" status before the season, I won't lose a whole lot of sleep tonight.

And if you would take a pitcher with a MLB ERA of 6.77, WHIP of 1.713, ERA+ of 67, 1.03K/BB, and OPS against of .854 then be my guest. Homer Bailey is the perfect example of how you can be as good as you want in the minors but it doesn't mean you will be good in MLB. I won't even take the time to make the same argument about Bruce. And Wood is still nothing as it relates directly to the big league team.

If the Nationals had the #1 farm system in baseball right now, they would still have a record of 32-71 because their MLB team stinks.

Zach Stewart was drafted in 08 and threw like 15 innings last season. I'd bet when their rankings come out next year he would have been top 3 and easily top 5.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:37 AM
Zach Stewart was drafted in 08 and threw like 15 innings last season.

Alonso is the #1 prospect in the Reds system across the board and was #35 on BA's top 100 list after being drafted in 08 and having 19 ABs as a pro.

While I am mostly doing this to play devil's advocate, I would still rather see MLB production than MiLB production and MLB Potential. By a million miles.

Griffey012
08-01-2009, 01:40 AM
Maybe the FO sees Stewart's value right now as being 8/10 but they for some reason see his value in MLB as being 3/10. He is a converted reliever that is shooting up prospect boards based on a handful of starts, and he just had his innings cut short. Until he can log an entire season as a starter, he is nothing more than a relief pitcher, and a starting pitching prospect- not a lock-down TOR arm.

And, to reference a post on the ORG, maybe this trade was made with the simple objective of improving the MLB team now. A huge amount of fans don't care one bit about any prospect in the Reds system. Does this trade make the Reds better in 2009 and 2010? Probably. Does it make them better in the future? No way to know- EE will assuredly not be missed, so it depends on if the two prospects become anything that the Reds will not be able to replace or replicate.

1. Homer Bailey, rhp
2. Jay Bruce, of
3. Travis Wood, lhp
4. B.J. Szymanski, of
5. Chris Denorfia, of
6. Rafael Gonzalez, rhp
7. Miguel Perez, c
8. Tyler Pelland, lhp
9. Joey Votto, 1b
10. Travis Chick, rhp

These are the Reds top 10 prospects from BA on Nov. 30, 2005. I see one legitimate top talent in Votto, two potential MLB talents in Bailey and Bruce (who I believe in, for the record), someone who is still a top prospect in Travis Wood, and six also-rans. This is being shown just to try and keep the gnashing and wringing to a minimum. Stewart could be a great pitcher, but he could also be Ryan Wagner part deux. Maybe the FO is showing foresight, and more positive moves are on the horizon. WJ seemed to show no allegiance to AGon in his FSN interview today...

I wish I could spell out the sportscenter sound right now, because that is all I have to say. Perfect post. Prospects are prospects for every Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson trade there are many many Pokey Reeses, (players you wouldn't trade for the best hitter or pitcher in baseball) who never pan out. Good grief maybe we lose this trade but for %@$@$ sake at least we are getting better now.

Even if we would somehow win the series Baker would still be doing something wrong in some people's eyes. Just quit rooting for your own opinion to be right and the reds to lose, or players they acquire to suck and just root for the team. I bet some people will be pulling harder now for Stewart than they would have been just so they can say i told you so.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:42 AM
Alonso is the #1 prospect in the Reds system across the board and was #35 on BA's top 100 list after being drafted in 08 and having 19 ABs as a pro.

While I am mostly doing this to play devil's advocate, I would still rather see MLB production than MiLB production and MLB Potential. By a million miles.

Alonso was 35 on pretty much name only. He could have not even touched the field and been ranked that high. Top 10 picks normally go pretty high on prospect list.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:49 AM
Let me ask the question this way- What does Stewart have that makes him so "can't miss" that Bailey does not or did not have? Because Bailey seems so far to be a miss, but had MUCH more success in the minors.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:55 AM
Let me ask the question this way- What does Stewart have that makes him so "can't miss" that Bailey does not or did not have? Because Bailey seems so far to be a miss, but had MUCH more success in the minors.

Bailey is 23. Call him a bust if you want but you cant deny what he brings to the table in terms of talent. Stewart is a much more polished pitcher than Bailey. Stewart is going to be a good reliever as a downside. He has potential to be a top of rotation guy but its not completely likely. He should have been viewed that way. The Reds viewed him as just another reliever it seems.

Bailey and Stewart are from different molds.

Bailey is a Beckett high K domination power arm pitcher. It might not work out but hes still 23.

Stewart was a Webb. Pitch to contact, can strike guys out if he needs to but gets grounders at a great rate, and has very good control.

bgwilly31
08-01-2009, 10:39 AM
What a waste of a read the past few pages have been. Talk about talking to a brick wall.

GIDP. Louisvillecards is right. Your basically back stepping this whole time. Making certain statements, than when you see the blood on your hands you rush to try to clean it off.

The fact of the matter is...

The reds made a move that got one of the best 3b in the league to this team. And in the "right now" traded the bluejays straight up for one of the worst 3b in the league. And the right now goes through 2010 at least. So for those of fans tired of waiting on our awsome ML prospects to come up and make this team a playoff team. We actually made a move that most of the other playoff teams of this decade have been doing all along. Now we just need to stay course and spend some more money in the offseason And we would have a seriously good chance of being in the playoffs in 2010.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 11:54 AM
I got 5 dollars wanna buy it for 50? They paid way too much for Rolen. If Stewart doesnt pan out it doesent change the fact that they over paid. They should have found other ways to spend Stewart. Total butcher job by Walt.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 12:02 PM
It is the morning after and I still cannot believe they included Roenicke and Stewart. I think Roenicke alone would have been too much of a throw-in. Let's recrap this trade. The Reds get Rolen and a pile of dead presidents.
The Blue Jays get a younger 3B who isn't that much worse all things considered. They get payflex. They get a potential 8th inning man or closer. And they get a potential # 2 or #3.
I know potential means you haven't done something yet. But I think Roenicke was showing well in the bigs. And Stewart steamrolled a couple of classifications in his first full season in the minors.

Sorry. I feel ill again.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Walt could be a little more indiscriminate with prospects in st louis because ownership would pony up the big bucks for the final-piece free agents. That will happen in the Queen City when pigs fly.

thorn
08-01-2009, 03:19 PM
Maybe the reds will end up trading for someone elses Stewart in august or the off season

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:22 PM
Maybe the reds will end up trading for someone elses Stewart in august or the off season

I have no trust that Walt could land someone elses Stewart. He has never been able to do that.

Fon Duc Tow
08-01-2009, 03:55 PM
The real downside in this deal is that they waited until they were 9 or 10 games out to do it.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 04:47 PM
It is the morning after and I still cannot believe they included Roenicke and Stewart. I think Roenicke alone would have been too much of a throw-in. Let's recrap this trade. The Reds get Rolen and a pile of dead presidents.
The Blue Jays get a younger 3B who isn't that much worse all things considered. They get payflex. They get a potential 8th inning man or closer. And they get a potential # 2 or #3.
I know potential means you haven't done something yet. But I think Roenicke was showing well in the bigs. And Stewart steamrolled a couple of classifications in his first full season in the minors.

Sorry. I feel ill again.

If you think EE is not that much worse than Rolen then you should step back and re-evaluate their respective ability levels. I will not go through the stat comparison, but the crux of the matter is that EE is as much a 3b as Adam Dunn or Willy Taveras. EE can't play there and his bat can't justify a move to LF or 1b, even if you think he could make the switch. It certainly doesn't justify a move to DH. .800 OPS bats are good, but are hardly special or rare.

Rolen is a special talent at 3b even at 34 and will upgrade the MLB team today, tomorrow, and in 2010. (Barring injury, of course.)

And, a quote from the ORG that describes how I feel about the trade, if it hasn't been made clear yet.


Trade minor league bullpen arms for above average major league position players all day, every day, twice on Sunday, and three times on the important holidays.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Rolen is better than Edwin. Nobody is questioning that. But Edwin is better than Rosales or Sutton or whomever is the 3B backup. So this only works if Rolen plays 150 games.
The equation really should be is Rolen for 120 games and Rosales/Sutton for 42 games THAT MUCH BETTER than Edwin for 150 games and Rosales/Sutton for 12 games. That is the true equation.

And if Rolen only plays in the 120 range then the improvement is minimal. Just one person's opinion.

And, IMO, Stewart is only pitching in relief right now to limit his innings. I believe he will be a starter from the beginning of 2010 on.

I respect your opinion and Jojo's opinion. I just happen to disagree this time.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2009, 08:09 PM
Rolen is better than Edwin. Nobody is questioning that. But Edwin is better than Rosales or Sutton or whomever is the 3B backup. So this only works if Rolen plays 150 games.
The equation really should be is Rolen for 120 games and Rosales/Sutton for 42 games THAT MUCH BETTER than Edwin for 150 games and Rosales/Sutton for 12 games. That is the true equation.

And if Rolen only plays in the 120 range then the improvement is minimal. Just one person's opinion.

And, IMO, Stewart is only pitching in relief right now to limit his innings. I believe he will be a starter from the beginning of 2010 on.

I respect your opinion and Jojo's opinion. I just happen to disagree this time.

Jockerty is going to re-sign Rolen for 2010 and beyond. Rolen is a damned good baseball player...still. He's got about 2-3 years of damned good baseball left. Edwin needed to go and, hearing about his "fist pump," I'm even happier to see him go.

Roenicke and Stewart were a high price to pay - no doubt about that. But Roenicke obviously was not as good as it looked like he was to me - pitching scouts and AAA hitters kept him in the minors until he was 26 years old. If you're throwing the ball that hard and you're 26, you've obviously got some issues somewhere. Stewart, by all accounts, is a great prospect. Hate losing him. But when was the last time the Reds system developed a pitcher who became a legit ML stud? And minor league pitchers are always a crapshoot. Again, I hated losing both of those guys. But I love having Rolen.

I will say this - if this is not the first of at least a couple of similar moves, I, too, will deem this trade a failure. This team was not a Scott Rolen away from winning. This team is a Scott Rolen, a SS and a CF away from winning. And we still have to figure out what the hell to do with Roidhead and Harang.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 08:58 PM
He didnt start pitching until he was 23 years old for the record.

Betterread
08-01-2009, 11:53 PM
But Roenicke obviously was not as good as it looked like he was to me - pitching scouts and AAA hitters kept him in the minors until he was 26 years old. If you're throwing the ball that hard and you're 26, you've obviously got some issues somewhere.
Issues? If he has issues, then we need more guys with those issues.
Roenicke didn't start pitching until he was 23. He is very athletic, with an exceptionally strong arm (he has the best FB in the Reds system minor league system and only Massey has a better one in the majors - and it is better because he locates it and has consistent velocity). Roenicke hits higher speeds on his FB than any other Red. He has obvious closer or set-up man potential.

malcontent
08-02-2009, 12:28 AM
Yeah, and he's only got 159 minor league IP on his arm.

Outstanding minor league stats...http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=roenic001jos

Only 15.1 IP in his four years at UCLA, where he played the OF.

Brings to my mind another position player-turned-pitcher that the Reds gave up on early.

Small wonder Ricciardi was giddy that Jocketty "gave in".

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 01:29 AM
Yeah, and he's only got 159 minor league IP on his arm.

Outstanding minor league stats...http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=roenic001jos

Only 15.1 IP in his four years at UCLA, where he played the OF.

Brings to my mind another position player-turned-pitcher that the Reds gave up on early.

Small wonder Ricciardi was giddy that Jocketty "gave in".

I'd guess that the Reds have a lot of guys on their current roster that had great minor league stats but we still stink.Whats wrong with getting a guy that has good big league stats?Maybe if we can get a few more of those kind of guys we won't be so bad.

Make no mistake about it I'm saying we neglect our farm system.Its just that most good teams trade the potential of minor league guys for the established big league player from time to time.I guess teams that like to be bad shouldn't ever do this.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 01:36 AM
I'd guess that the Reds have a lot of guys on their current roster that had great minor league stats but we still stink.Whats wrong with getting a guy that has good big league stats?Maybe if we can get a few more of those kind of guys we won't be so bad.

Make no mistake about it I'm saying we neglect our farm system.Its just that most good teams trade the potential of minor league guys for the established big league player from time to time.I guess teams that like to be bad shouldn't ever do this.

Some of the Reds worst players are making the most money. They are only on the team still because of their contracts. Talk about double slap.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 02:04 AM
Some of the Reds worst players are making the most money. They are only on the team still because of their contracts. Talk about double slap.

For 2010 it's going to take those guys making the big money stepping up and earning it because no one wants to take on those contracts.In the meantime I see nothing wrong with improving the team anyway you can.I know its a pipe dream but my hope is that the Rolen trade is a sign that Bob C. is going to bump payroll some next year to at least get a SS and one above average OF.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 02:10 AM
For 2010 it's going to take those guys making the big money stepping up and earning it because no one wants to take on those contracts.In the meantime I see nothing wrong with improving the team anyway you can.I know its a pipe dream but my hope is that the Rolen trade is a sign that Bob C. is going to bump payroll some next year to at least get a SS and one above average OF.

I see the odds of that happening pretty slim to none. They went into last year looking for a LFer, and the best they came up with was giving Taveras 7 million. Its not looking good for the future.

MBZags
08-07-2009, 01:58 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9904492/Jocketty-gambling-on-Rolen-in-Cincy

According to FOX Sports, the Reds are paying ALL of Rolen's salary in 2010. Argh, I don't like conflicting reports.

GIDP
08-07-2009, 02:01 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9904492/Jocketty-gambling-on-Rolen-in-Cincy

According to FOX Sports, the Reds are paying ALL of Rolen's salary in 2010. Argh, I don't like conflicting reports.

The whole less than 11 million dollar thing in organizational speak is 10,999,999 and lower.

Plus Plus
08-08-2009, 09:56 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9904492/Jocketty-gambling-on-Rolen-in-Cincy

According to FOX Sports, the Reds are paying ALL of Rolen's salary in 2010. Argh, I don't like conflicting reports.

If we are going to take the quote about Rolen's salary as truth from the article, I think that we should also take the quote about how Rolen's salary will not affect the Reds offseason plans in the least as truth as well. This doesn't concern me in the slightest, especially in light of other reports saying that the Reds received $7mm between the two years.