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View Full Version : Volquez has TJ surgery. Out for about a year



Reds Fanatic
07-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Fay reporting he had to stop simulated start early

Jpup
07-31-2009, 03:45 PM
Shut him down and hope for spring. Take no chances.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 03:49 PM
All of a sudden alot going on with the Reds. Hopefully Volquez is ok.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:49 PM
I knew it. That pitching motion is death.

LincolnparkRed
07-31-2009, 03:50 PM
Might as well shut him and Cueto down. bring up whomever, doesn't matter now.

Let Rolen and Jocketty work on whom to keep next year and get on the phone to get Tony L from stL after the Cubs take the division

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:52 PM
Surgery here we come!

See ya next June, Volkie.

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 03:53 PM
Can we get Josh back now?

SirFelixCat
07-31-2009, 03:53 PM
Please please shut him down. This season is beyond toast...let's not ruin the future too.

redsfandan
07-31-2009, 03:54 PM
We don't know anything YET. Only that the start was stopped.

Stormy
07-31-2009, 03:54 PM
In that case, better go ahead and have Halladay sent over too Walt. If you're going to give up prospects, pay top $ for Rolen for a single season, then you better set your sights on 2010 and go all in. :)

CTA513
07-31-2009, 03:55 PM
Can we get Josh back now?

He would fit right in with the other guys on the team hitting in the low .200's

Falls City Beer
07-31-2009, 03:55 PM
We don't know anything YET. Only that the start was stopped.

Respectfully, yes we do. Cut short means he felt pain. Which means it's almost certainly damage to tissue.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2009, 03:55 PM
Nearly 1/3 of the 40-man roster is on the DL.

nate
07-31-2009, 03:56 PM
Can we get Josh back now?

I don't think we need another sub .700 OPS bat.

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 03:57 PM
He would fit right in with the other guys on the team hitting in the low .200's


Guess that would mean WK wasn't too spectacular either in acquiring Josh or trading him, wouldn't it?

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 05:41 PM
Can we get Josh back now?

Yeah, we really need an injury prone .650 OPS bat.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 06:16 PM
So is the Hamilton/Volquez chapter of Wayne's resume starting to move into the crowded "looked a lot better early on" section?

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 06:17 PM
Volquez for Hamilton was a great deal. Great deal. I'd do it 100 times out of 100.

edabbs44
07-31-2009, 06:28 PM
Volquez for Hamilton was a great deal. Great deal. I'd do it 100 times out of 100.

Agreed, but right now all we have is 1/2 of a season at stud level, 2 halves at average level and a potentially serious injury.

Not exactly a headliner for the resume.

Loved the trade at the time, but trades are won and lost over the following years. This may end up being a nothing trade for the most part.

Always Red
07-31-2009, 07:57 PM
Let Rolen and Jocketty work on whom to keep next year and get on the phone to get Tony L from stL after the Cubs take the division

Not with Rolen on the team; those two could not work together in St. L.

kaldaniels
08-01-2009, 02:20 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/07/31/of_trades_elbows_andro_and_amp.html

McCoy suspects Volquez will have TJ surgery and miss 2010.

redsfandan
08-01-2009, 02:26 AM
If that's true than that will really hurt our ability to contend in 2010 ALOT. If the Reds knew this was the case then trading for Rolen makes no sense.

kaldaniels
08-01-2009, 02:27 AM
If thats true...the Rolen story is the 2nd biggest story of the day.

WMR
08-01-2009, 02:51 AM
Haha, the Reds just keep looking dumber and dumber.

If they had ANY inclination that this was even the merest of possibilities and STILL acquired Rolen...

they couldn't be that misguided. Surely.

Brutus
08-01-2009, 02:53 AM
I'm really not sure what any inclination of Volquez should have to do with Rolen. So because the possibility might exist Volquez would require Tommy John surgery, the Reds should give up and not try to better their team for next season? I don't see the logic behind that, honestly. If the Reds felt this trade makes them better, they should do it regardless of Volquez.

redsfandan
08-01-2009, 02:54 AM
Because trading for Rolen makes sense IF, and only IF, we have a shot to contend in 2010. With Volquez out it just makes it that much harder. It's like now that 3rd will be better the rotation will be worse (than hoped).

WMR
08-01-2009, 03:00 AM
Because trading for Rolen makes sense IF, and only IF, we have a shot to contend in 2010. With Volquez out it just makes it that much harder. It's like now that 3rd will be better the rotation will be worse (than hoped).

This guy gets it. :clap:

It makes the shopping list that much longer and that much more unrealistic.

But then again... the Reds have been half-assing between rebuilding and reloading for so long now... maybe this strategy makes perfect sense after all.

corkedbat
08-01-2009, 03:02 AM
Most depressing day in the last 10 years (and there's been a bunch). Well, at least it's over.

redsfandan
08-01-2009, 03:05 AM
Most depressing day in the last 10 years (and there's been a bunch). Well, at least it's over.
But will it ever end???? :lastyear: :cry:

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2009, 03:12 AM
But will it ever end???? :lastyear: :cry:

Next up on the list dealing Alonso, Cueto & Viola for Jason Marquis because you know...he's a gamer. Plus he has fulfilled the rest of the trifecta also, having a good year and ex Card under Crocketty.

Brutus
08-01-2009, 03:18 AM
Because trading for Rolen makes sense IF, and only IF, we have a shot to contend in 2010. With Volquez out it just makes it that much harder. It's like now that 3rd will be better the rotation will be worse (than hoped).

By who's measure? Yours? Redszone? Sorry, but Jocketty has a World Series ring and built a few other teams that almost picked one up. I'll trust his judgment to measure his teams' chances of contending until I have a sample size here in Cincinnati to believe otherwise.

Maybe I just am not ready to jump off bridges yet. Losing Volquez would absolutely hurt. However, if his loss alone is the difference in this team contending next year, then the Rolen deal does not really make this franchise any worse off because it's already a train wreck.

TheNext44
08-01-2009, 03:33 AM
There is no report that Volquez will have tommy john and be out for 2010. That was Hal guessing. And while Hal is my favorite Reds beat writer, we all know how good he has been on his guesses lately.
It may happen, but no way to assume that it wlll, or to plan that it will.

redsfandan
08-01-2009, 03:42 AM
I'm climbing off the ledge but our luck is going to have to do a 180 and soon.

Brutus
08-01-2009, 04:12 AM
I'm climbing off the ledge but our luck is going to have to do a 180 and soon.

I am glad to see you're off the ledge :thumbup:

Degenerate39
08-01-2009, 10:04 AM
Make sure he doesn't pitch Winter ball or Cueto for that matter

Hap
08-01-2009, 01:17 PM
Anyone here still think the World Baseball Classic is a good idea?

11larkin11
08-01-2009, 01:21 PM
Anyone here still think the World Baseball Classic is a good idea?

Cannot believe your blaming this on the 5 innings he pitched in the WBC. Wow. Cueto seemed to be doing fine. I think its the winter ball when he's supposed to be resting. I hate winter ball for pitchers.

reds44
08-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Anyone here still think the World Baseball Classic is a good idea?
Yes.

Brutus
08-01-2009, 01:52 PM
Yes.

x2

I agree with 11Larkin. I don't buy for a second the small amount of pitching done in the World Baseball Classic amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to pitchers' health.

Winter Ball I could see more of a case being made. But the WBC should not even be in the discussion when talking about pitchers and their health.

*BaseClogger*
08-01-2009, 01:56 PM
Cannot believe your blaming this on the 5 innings he pitched in the WBC. Wow. Cueto seemed to be doing fine. I think its the winter ball when he's supposed to be resting. I hate winter ball for pitchers.

I think it probably has more to do with mechanics and genetics than a ritual most Latin players partake in...

VR
08-01-2009, 02:11 PM
Cannot believe your blaming this on the 5 innings he pitched in the WBC. Wow. Cueto seemed to be doing fine. I think its the winter ball when he's supposed to be resting. I hate winter ball for pitchers.

Winter ball is problem 1A.

The problem with WBC isn't the innings, it's the time away from the organization's regiman during ST.

OnBaseMachine
08-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Volquez to have surgery Monday
Posted by TomGroeschen at 8/1/2009 2:52 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

RHP Edinson Volquez will have right elbow surgery Monday, the Reds just announced. On the DL since June 2, Volquez yesterday complained of elbow stiffness and soreness after throwing 20 pitches of a scheduled 80-pitch simulated game.

A prognosis for recovery will be determined after Monday's surgery, the Reds said. From here, it would seem we have seen the last of Volquez this season. We'll get comments from the clubhouse, which opens at 3:40 p.m. to the media.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a4112b1c8-f105-4c18-a46d-a69235345982&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Matt700wlw
08-01-2009, 03:02 PM
Great.

Stephenk29
08-01-2009, 03:14 PM
So if its Tommy John, he's looking at a May/June return to the mound. Terrible news all around.

traderumor
08-01-2009, 03:20 PM
Yea, just knew after the shutdown upon returning from the 15 day DL stint that he was probably done for the year.

Marc D
08-01-2009, 03:29 PM
Volquez to have surgery Monday
Posted by TomGroeschen at 8/1/2009 2:52 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

RHP Edinson Volquez will have right elbow surgery Monday, the Reds just announced. On the DL since June 2, Volquez yesterday complained of elbow stiffness and soreness after throwing 20 pitches of a scheduled 80-pitch simulated game.

A prognosis for recovery will be determined after Monday's surgery, the Reds said. From here, it would seem we have seen the last of Volquez this season. We'll get comments from the clubhouse, which opens at 3:40 p.m. to the media.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a4112b1c8-f105-4c18-a46d-a69235345982&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Thank god we have some talented young pitching coming up from the minors to help. We're going to need the depth.

Oh wait.

SirFelixCat
08-01-2009, 03:33 PM
The title should be changed to "Volquez to have surgery Monday and out for at least this season" (or something to that effect) and stickied, please.

Hoosier Red
08-01-2009, 03:35 PM
Thank god we have some talented young pitching coming up from the minors to help. We're going to need the depth.

Oh wait.

I'm not exactly sure what trading two guys who would be at best relievers on next years' team does to the Reds, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have much to do with the starting rotation.

Marc D
08-01-2009, 03:37 PM
I'm not exactly sure what trading two guys who would be at best relievers on next years' team does to the Reds, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have much to do with the starting rotation.

Stewart moving to the pen was etched in stone? I missed that.

Kc61
08-01-2009, 03:39 PM
Thank god we have some talented young pitching coming up from the minors to help. We're going to need the depth.

Oh wait.

Funny, but of course not reality. Stewart hasn't started above AA ball and didn't start that many games even there. He might have relieved for the Reds next year, but it's highly unlikely he would be ready as a starter.

Cueto is going to have to return to form and Bailey is going to have to pitch well. Some of the veterans will have to do well too.

Marc D
08-01-2009, 03:44 PM
Funny, but of course not reality. Stewart hasn't started above AA ball and didn't start that many games even there. He might have relieved for the Reds next year, but it's highly unlikely he would be ready as a starter.

Cueto is going to have to return to form and Bailey is going to have to pitch well. Some of the veterans will have to do well too.


I know he was far away but still, given the spot we are going to be in pitching wise next year the possibility existed. It no longer does because one thing I know for a fact is that Scott Rolen can't pitch.

It speaks more to the point of the Rolen trade somehow giving us flexibility than anything else. WJ and company had to have known about this before that trade. It seriously hurts what slim chances the team had to be good next year and yet he pulls the trigger anyway. Makes even less sense now than it did before.

cincrazy
08-01-2009, 03:46 PM
I know he was far away but still, given the spot we are going to be in pitching wise next year the possibility existed. It no longer does because one thing I know for a fact is that Scott Rolen can't pitch.

It speaks more to the point of the Rolen trade somehow giving us flexibility than anything else. WJ and company had to have known about this before that trade. It seriously hurts what slim chances the team had to be good next year and yet he pulls the trigger anyway. Makes even less sense now than it did before.

There's no guarantee that Stewart would have been any better than Matt Maloney, Homer Bailey, or any other AAA arm we've thrown at the wall hoping to see it stick.

RANDY IN INDY
08-01-2009, 03:56 PM
There's no guarantee that Stewart would have been any better than Matt Maloney, Homer Bailey, or any other AAA arm we've thrown at the wall hoping to see it stick.

Or that his arm wouldn't have blown out before he ever made it to the bigs. Pitchers are a very prized, but also very "volatile" commodity.

Hoosier Red
08-01-2009, 04:02 PM
Stewart moving to the pen was etched in stone? I missed that.

He sure wasn't going to start on the Reds next year.

nate
08-01-2009, 04:09 PM
There's no guarantee that Stewart would have been any better than Matt Maloney, Homer Bailey, or any other AAA arm we've thrown at the wall hoping to see it stick.

So why did the Blue Jays want Stewart rather than Maloney, Bailey or any other AAA arm we have?

Marc D
08-01-2009, 04:12 PM
There's no guarantee that Stewart would have been any better than Matt Maloney, Homer Bailey, or any other AAA arm we've thrown at the wall hoping to see it stick.


Or that his arm wouldn't have blown out before he ever made it to the bigs. Pitchers are a very prized, but also very "volatile" commodity.


He sure wasn't going to start on the Reds next year.


Sometimes teams call up minor league pitchers when they are in a jam and they pitch decently. It can happen. The only time it cannot happen for certain is if they aren't on the other end of the phone when you make the call.

The Reds had to have known they were going to be down 1 starting pitcher in 2010 and they traded pitching depth (however far away it may or may not have been) away for an old injury prone 3B.

Reds Fanatic
08-01-2009, 04:17 PM
nm

kaldaniels
08-01-2009, 04:21 PM
So why did the Blue Jays want Stewart rather than Maloney, Bailey or any other AAA arm we have?

Becuase he does have better odds for success than our AAA guys. Bailey on the other hand while still having a decent ceiling, understandably is not everyone's cup of tea.

That said, I'd still say the odds are less than 50/50 of Stewart being a sucessful, better than average MLB pitcher.

cincrazy
08-01-2009, 04:22 PM
So why did the Blue Jays want Stewart rather than Maloney, Bailey or any other AAA arm we have?

Maybe Bailey's name was brought up, and the Reds weren't willing to move him?

Trading Zach Stewart isn't the death of this franchise. I missed the part where this guy was the next "can't miss" prospect. And even if he was, can't miss prospects miss quite frequently.

Kc61
08-01-2009, 04:27 PM
I know he was far away but still, given the spot we are going to be in pitching wise next year the possibility existed. It no longer does because one thing I know for a fact is that Scott Rolen can't pitch.

It speaks more to the point of the Rolen trade somehow giving us flexibility than anything else. WJ and company had to have known about this before that trade. It seriously hurts what slim chances the team had to be good next year and yet he pulls the trigger anyway. Makes even less sense now than it did before.

Rolen can't pitch but even with the Volquez injury the position players on the Reds are worse than the pitchers. They may well need to pick up a starter in the off season now, but the eight starting positions needed a signficant upgrade.

Reds Fanatic
08-01-2009, 05:28 PM
From Fay's blog:


The Reds won't know if Volquez will need Tommy John surgery (ulnar collateral ligament replacement procedure) until Dr. Tim Kremchek goes into the arm on Monday. If Tommy John is required, Volquez is looking at a recovery time of 9-to-12 months.

"'If that's the best thing, let's do it...We're 10 games behind, they don't need me right now," Volquez said.
Re Tommy John surgery: "I hope not. I hope I can be ready for spring training."

A prognosis for recovery will be determined after Monday's surgery, the Reds said.

GM Walt Jocketty said, "You always try to take the cautious route. We just felt we needed to go in there and see what's going on."

Manager Dusty Baker: "The sooner the better, to get him fixed for next year. At least we know now, no winter ball."

HokieRed
08-01-2009, 05:39 PM
So why did the Blue Jays want Stewart rather than Maloney, Bailey or any other AAA arm we have?


Are you sure they didn't want Bailey?

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2009, 05:57 PM
This has been a nightmare season. I don't think it could have been any worse.

westofyou
08-01-2009, 06:01 PM
This has been a nightmare season. I don't think it could have been any worse.

Sure it could at the end of August the manager could be suspended for betting on his team. Or the team plane could crash and Wily Taveras could eat the pitching staff, lots of worse things could happen.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2009, 06:08 PM
Sure it could at the end of August the manager could be suspended for betting on his team. Or the team plane could crash and Wily Taveras could eat the pitching staff, lots of worse things could happen.

How about he just eats Weathers.

westofyou
08-01-2009, 06:12 PM
How about he just eats Weathers.

Weathers is old, he'd need to be tenderized and maybe pounded out with a mallet. He'd be better in a soup is my guess.

nate
08-01-2009, 06:12 PM
Maybe Bailey's name was brought up, and the Reds weren't willing to move him?

Trading Zach Stewart isn't the death of this franchise. I missed the part where this guy was the next "can't miss" prospect. And even if he was, can't miss prospects miss quite frequently.

I missed the part where I said he "can't miss."

nate
08-01-2009, 06:20 PM
Are you sure they didn't want Bailey?

The Jays seemed real pleased with the return they received.

Hey, if placing lesser value on what we gave away makes you feel better about the transaction, Kool and the Gang!

:thumbup:

Will M
08-01-2009, 06:32 PM
ok. Volquez gets an mri that looks bad indicating something is wrong with the elbow ligament. what type of surgery is he going to have if its not 'Tommy John'? I am guessing that he'll get the elbow scoped and if it just looks like inflammation (not a tear) then nothing will be done. i am not an orthopedic surgeon or a radiologist but i suspect that an mri could tell the difference between a tear and inflammation fairly well. this makes me think that TJ surgery is likely. otherwise the doc would say 'the mri just shows inflammation. we're shutting him down for 2009 but he'll be ready for spring training'

Matt700wlw
08-01-2009, 07:00 PM
Going forward, you have to assume he's gone until mid season next year. Anything sooner is a bonus.

Always Red
08-01-2009, 07:04 PM
Weathers is old, he'd need to be tenderized and maybe pounded out with a mallet. He'd be better in a soup is my guess.

low and slow, maybe all day long, on the barbecue.

deltachi8
08-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Sure it could at the end of August the manager could be suspended for betting on his team. Or the team plane could crash and Wily Taveras could eat the pitching staff, lots of worse things could happen.


Very true, 1989 was an exceptionally painful year as a Reds fan....that team rolled out Jeff "Whitey" Richardson for 53 games, 37 year old Joel Youngblood 76 times, and Scott Madison in 40 games. Of course 1982 was no picnic either (David Weathers soup or not)

Stephenk29
08-01-2009, 08:32 PM
ok. Volquez gets an mri that looks bad indicating something is wrong with the elbow ligament. what type of surgery is he going to have if its not 'Tommy John'? I am guessing that he'll get the elbow scoped and if it just looks like inflammation (not a tear) then nothing will be done. i am not an orthopedic surgeon or a radiologist but i suspect that an mri could tell the difference between a tear and inflammation fairly well. this makes me think that TJ surgery is likely. otherwise the doc would say 'the mri just shows inflammation. we're shutting him down for 2009 but he'll be ready for spring training'

Bone chips floating around are the only other thing that comes to mind? But like you said I'm no ortho either. Severe strain?

Blitz Dorsey
08-01-2009, 08:36 PM
Kremhack couldn't diagnose this earlier? Sounds like we wasted the last two months hoping and praying that EV would come back when a good doctor would have known he needed to go under the knife two months ago.

Hap
08-01-2009, 09:12 PM
Anyone who thinks the WBC did not have an adverse effect on his elbow, which was probably already inflamed, is wrong, IMO.

Disagree with me if you like, but you will not change my mind.

HokieRed
08-01-2009, 09:14 PM
The Jays seemed real pleased with the return they received.

:thumbup:

Do you think general managers will survive long if they come out saying they don't like the deal they just made?

kaldaniels
08-01-2009, 09:38 PM
If EV misses 2010 will that year count as mlb service time?

VR
08-01-2009, 09:41 PM
Kremhack couldn't diagnose this earlier? Sounds like we wasted the last two months hoping and praying that EV would come back when a good doctor would have known he needed to go under the knife two months ago.

Certainly not.

Brutus
08-02-2009, 01:28 AM
If EV misses 2010 will that year count as mlb service time?

Negative.

cincrazy
08-02-2009, 01:35 AM
I missed the part where I said he "can't miss."

Well, that wasn't really directed towards you. Nobody said "can't miss," but the general attitude on the board has been that we just traded a can't miss prospect, a sure thing, a top notch guy. Which Zach Stewart isn't.

People were begging for the Reds to do something. And they did do something. To do something, a risk needs to be taken. I'd rather him take a risk than sit on his hands as he's done the last year plus.

Eric_the_Red
08-02-2009, 08:23 AM
At this point it doesn't appear that the team has the pieces in place for a run in 2010. I'd almost be for EV having Tommy John surgery, just so he could come back stronger in 2011.

I fear that Doc Hollywood will determine during the operation that TJ surgery isn't necessary, cleans him up a bit and then next year EV gets hurt and does need TJ surgery. Given the Reds recent luck, I almost expect this scenario.

IslandRed
08-02-2009, 09:29 AM
If EV misses 2010 will that year count as mlb service time?


Negative.

I'm pretty sure it would count. Players accrue MLB service time while on the disabled list, either the 15-day or 60-day. Guys on the 60-day DL are still on the Major League roster (aka the 40-man), they just don't count against the limit of 40.

PuffyPig
08-02-2009, 09:35 AM
I'm pretty sure it would count. Players accrue MLB service time while on the disabled list, either the 15-day or 60-day. Guys on the 60-day DL are still on the Major League roster (aka the 40-man), they just don't count against the limit of 40.


You are correct, it counts as service time. If he was in the minors at the time of the injury, it would not have.

Strikes Out Looking
08-02-2009, 09:42 AM
How in the world do back spasms become possible Tommy John surgery?

KoryMac5
08-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Sounds more like Doc Hollywood is going in there to look around to see why Volquez isn't responding to treatment. I think the Reds and the good doctor felt that it was necessary to take a conservative approach and see if it could get better with rest. Now that the Reds are out of it coupled with the tightness Edison felt in the simulated game it was the best course of action to take a look in the elbow. Shutting him down for the year may just end up being a blessing in disguise if it isn't TJ.

BCubb2003
08-02-2009, 10:23 AM
I wonder if it's possible for the Reds to just cancel the rest of this season, like some teams used to do in the early days. Start fresh next year.

Always Red
08-02-2009, 10:26 AM
How in the world do back spasms become possible Tommy John surgery?

compensating for an injury by changing throwing motion or using different muscles while throwing in an attempt to guard or protect the injured area.

Always Red
08-02-2009, 10:27 AM
I wonder if it's possible for the Reds to just cancel the rest of this season, like some teams used to do in the early days. Start fresh next year.

If the Reds were a European soccer team, they just might find themselves out of the Premier Division next year.

kpresidente
08-02-2009, 10:54 AM
That said, I'd still say the odds are less than 50/50 of Stewart being a sucessful, better than average MLB pitcher.

Since you get him for 6 years, at that 50/50 ratio you can say we traded 3 years of an above average starting pitcher, plus one year of EE, plus 6 years of Roenicke...

...for one year of Rolen.


You've actually made the deal look worse.

BCubb2003
08-02-2009, 11:02 AM
Since you get him for 6 years, at that 50/50 ratio you can say we traded 3 years of an above average starting pitcher, plus one year of EE, plus 6 years of Roenicke...

...for one year of Rolen.


You've actually made the deal look worse.

I'm not sure a 50/50 chance of being successful means he'll be successful half the time. He might lose the coin toss and not be successful at all.

nate
08-02-2009, 11:04 AM
Do you think general managers will survive long if they come out saying they don't like the deal they just made?

If it's cathartic for you to think we sent the Jays trash, totally awesome!

nate
08-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Since you get him for 6 years, at that 50/50 ratio you can say we traded 3 years of an above average starting pitcher, plus one year of EE, plus 6 years of Roenicke...

...for one year of Rolen.


You've actually made the deal look worse.

I thought Stewart was going to be a reliever.

nate
08-02-2009, 11:14 AM
Well, that wasn't really directed towards you. Nobody said "can't miss," but the general attitude on the board has been that we just traded a can't miss prospect, a sure thing, a top notch guy. Which Zach Stewart isn't.

1. I find arguing against a made-up entity that doesn't exist like "the general attitude on the board," is...I dunno, a strawman, I guess.

2. I believe that it's obvious that there's no 100% can't miss prospect. I do believe that there is an entire range between 0% and 100% of prospect success. I also believe that just because many haven't worked out for the Reds, it doesn't mean 0% will continue to work out. If it did mean that, it's time to contract the team.


People were begging for the Reds to do something. _I_ was hoping for the Reds to do something that makes the team better. I wasn't hoping for the Reds to do something just for the sake of doing it.


And they did do something. To do something, a risk needs to be taken. I'd rather him take a risk than sit on his hands as he's done the last year plus.I'd rather him doing something that makes the team better.

I think signing Rolen does make the team better. I'm not sure if it was worth the cost.

HokieRed
08-02-2009, 11:17 AM
If it's cathartic for you to think we sent the Jays trash, totally awesome!

I never said anything like that. I actually liked Stewart as much as anybody. I just think you can't conclude anything either from the fact that the Toronto GM seemed to like the deal or that Walt said we "gave in." These are just the kinds of noises to expect from people involved in deals of this kind. They mean nothing.

kaldaniels
08-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Since you get him for 6 years, at that 50/50 ratio you can say we traded 3 years of an above average starting pitcher, plus one year of EE, plus 6 years of Roenicke...

...for one year of Rolen.


You've actually made the deal look worse.

Ahhh...the ole' putting words in my mouth. I say "less than 50/50". You turn that into "50/50".

nate
08-02-2009, 12:46 PM
I never said anything like that. I actually liked Stewart as much as anybody. I just think you can't conclude anything either from the fact that the Toronto GM seemed to like the deal or that Walt said we "gave in." These are just the kinds of noises to expect from people involved in deals of this kind. They mean nothing.

Although there a lot of "PR speak" when players are traded, based on some of the deals the Jays turned down for Halladay, I have to think they were either gonna get what they wanted, or stand pat.

Crosley68
08-02-2009, 12:51 PM
Although there a lot of "PR speak" when players are traded, based on some of the deals the Jays turned down for Halladay, I have to think they were either gonna get what they wanted, or stand pat.

I don't think you can compare a GM's position about trading the games best pitcher with another year on his contract with a trade of a position player who asked to be traded. In my opinion, a BIG difference.

Stephenk29
08-02-2009, 12:52 PM
Kremhack couldn't diagnose this earlier? Sounds like we wasted the last two months hoping and praying that EV would come back when a good doctor would have known he needed to go under the knife two months ago.

Reminds me of Carson Palmer's elbow. I'm still waiting for that to explode (hopefully not).

nate
08-02-2009, 01:15 PM
I don't think you can compare a GM's position about trading the games best pitcher with another year on his contract with a trade of a position player who asked to be traded. In my opinion, a BIG difference.

I don't think that plays into it at all. The Jays got what they wanted and stuck to their guns. Walt got what he wanted and "gave in."

TheNext44
08-02-2009, 01:16 PM
Ahhh...the ole' putting words in my mouth. I say "less than 50/50". You turn that into "50/50".

Stewart has already been ranked as around the 50th best prospect in all the minors. History tells us that prospects ranked somewhere between the 25th best and 50th best become solid major league producers around 25% of the time. So in the abstract, you are correct, Stewart has less than a 50-50% of making it in the bigs.

kpresidente
08-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Ahhh...the ole' putting words in my mouth. I say "less than 50/50". You turn that into "50/50".

Are you kidding me? When somebody says "less than 50/50", they mean "close to 50/50 but on the lower side." If you'd have meant 60/40 you should have said 60/40.

So what kind of precision do you want. 47/53 good enough? You need me to say 2.82 years of Stewart to a give your argument a fair account? Fine, we gave up 2.82 years of Stewart. Still a bad deal.

kaldaniels
08-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Are you kidding me? When somebody says "less than 50/50", they mean "close to 50/50 but on the lower side." If you'd have meant 60/40 you should have said 60/40.

So what kind of precision do you want. 47/53 good enough? You need me to say 2.82 years of Stewart to a give your argument a fair account? Fine, we gave up 2.82 years of Stewart. Still a bad deal.

I say less than 50/50 you turn that into a firm 47/53...keep it up. I don't have a problem if you make the above few arguments as it being your opinion...but don't put words in my mouth.

kpresidente
08-02-2009, 02:01 PM
I say less than 50/50 you turn that into a firm 47/53...keep it up. I don't have a problem if you make the above few arguments as it being your opinion...but don't put words in my mouth.

It's called sarcasm. The point being that "less than 50/50" still means roughly 50/50 and is fine for running some incredibly simplistic numbers to make a broad point. If you'd have meant so significantly less than 50/50, to the point where my rough argument about the number of years for Stewart we gave up was unfair, you should have said so.

kaldaniels
08-02-2009, 02:14 PM
It's called sarcasm. The point being that "less than 50/50" still means roughly 50/50 and is fine for running some incredibly simplistic numbers to make a broad point. If you'd have meant so significantly less than 50/50, to the point where my rough argument about the number of years for Stewart we gave up was unfair, you should have said so.

Nope. I said "less than 50/50" percent chance Stewart becomes a above average big league pitcher". Thats all I wanted to say and all I will say.

Somehow out of that remark you deduced that I said/concluded/came to the logic that we are giving 3 years of a solid MLB pitcher away. I don't believe that and more importantly I never said that. Again, if that is your risk management analysis of the trade, fine...you have a argument, make your points. But do not, I repeat, do not put words in my mouth.

edabbs44
08-02-2009, 04:23 PM
Kremhack couldn't diagnose this earlier? Sounds like we wasted the last two months hoping and praying that EV would come back when a good doctor would have known he needed to go under the knife two months ago.

It actually happens quite often, as they usually want surgery to be the last option.

Happened today for another high profile guy:


According to a report from Mark Maynard of Brandon Webb's hometown Ashland, Kentucky, the Diamondbacks injured ace will undergo surgery on Monday that will end any hopes of him pitching in 2009.

Webb had gone through two different periods of rest and strengthening with visions of pitching in September. However, the stiffness in his right shoulder has not improved. The recovery time from the procedure is not yet known.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 12:33 AM
Volquez to have surgery Monday
Posted by TomGroeschen at 8/1/2009 2:52 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com


Sad to hear that, but I'm not surprised. Followed the normal Doc Hollywood protocol. I assumed all along he'd end up going under the knife. At least Doc Hollywood gets another picture to hang on his wall.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 12:36 AM
If EV misses 2010 will that year count as mlb service time?

Yes, when you're on the DL, you collect service time.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 12:38 AM
How in the world do back spasms become possible Tommy John surgery?

That's why you never believe anything Doc Hollywood says. I guessed right away that he was lying about the severity of the injury.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2009, 12:53 AM
I hate to say this, but the Volquez who was the All-Star, the kid who was the ace is gone. He'll go through a couple of years of feeling his way through without the velocity. By 2011, he should be back, but not as an ace. That's disturbing on many fronts. His motion concerned me from the beginning. My hope was that he wasn't going to have a problem. It didn't happen. It was obvious from the second half of last year, he was having issues. He just wasn't the same and now this.

I wish him the very best, but I think the dream of him being that ace we wanted is over and that's sad. What could have been...

nate
08-03-2009, 10:17 AM
That's why you never believe anything Doc Hollywood says. I guessed right away that he was lying about the severity of the injury.

This is really uncalled for.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 10:54 AM
I hate to say this, but the Volquez who was the All-Star, the kid who was the ace is gone. He'll go through a couple of years of feeling his way through without the velocity. By 2011, he should be back, but not as an ace. That's disturbing on many fronts. His motion concerned me from the beginning. My hope was that he wasn't going to have a problem. It didn't happen. It was obvious from the second half of last year, he was having issues. He just wasn't the same and now this.

I wish him the very best, but I think the dream of him being that ace we wanted is over and that's sad. What could have been...

20 years ago this may have been true but not now. Many pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery and regain their pre-TJ stuff. IF Volquez undergoes TJ surgery, he'll still only be 27 years old when he returns. I think it's silly to write him off now.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 10:59 AM
This is really uncalled for.

But true. Very seldom does Doc Hollywood give an accurate answer.
Maybe he is intentionally making smoke screens due to the HIPA laws.
I can understand if he can't legally tell us what is going on, but he needs to stop saying things that are blantantly false in order to make major injuries look like minor things.

Maybe the Reds pressure him to do that, but if that is the case, he needs to give a "no comment" instead of making up stuff to feed to the reporters. But he would never do that, as it takes him out of the spotlight.

Stormy
08-03-2009, 11:06 AM
Stewart has already been ranked as around the 50th best prospect in all the minors. History tells us that prospects ranked somewhere between the 25th best and 50th best become solid major league producers around 25% of the time. So in the abstract, you are correct, Stewart has less than a 50-50% of making it in the bigs.

Regardless, we need all the depth we can get. We have no one as advanced as Stewart, which means everyone else in our system is presumptively a longer-shot than he is. Meanwhile, at the MLB level we have 2 veterans that we can't give away apparently, our once and future ace is out indefinitely with major surgery scheduled, Cueto is still just a kid in terms of experience, and the back of our rotation is currently filled by what may turn out to be 2 'never weres' in Owings and Bailey.

Given our historical trends with pitching development, and the current demise of our existing rotation, trading young arms for a veteran 3B probably isn't the wisest allocation of our resources.

nate
08-03-2009, 11:23 AM
But true.

No, it's not true. It's your odd pathological hatred popping up again.


Very seldom does Doc Hollywood give an accurate answer.

Again, false. Sports medicine seems like a rather complex field. If he were so inaccurate, he wouldn't be one of the leaders in his field. The inaccuracy is more in your strange hatred of the man.


Maybe he is intentionally making smoke screens due to the HIPA laws.

I think he's doing nothing of the sort.


I can understand if he can't legally tell us what is going on, but he needs to stop saying things that are blantantly false in order to make major injuries look like minor things.

This occurs only in your mind.


Maybe the Reds pressure him to do that, but if that is the case, he needs to give a "no comment" instead of making up stuff to feed to the reporters. But he would never do that, as it takes him out of the spotlight.

Your borderline slanderous commentary is really uncalled for.

princeton
08-03-2009, 11:31 AM
Given our historical trends with pitching development, and the current demise of our existing rotation, trading young arms for a veteran 3B probably isn't the wisest allocation of our resources.

exactly.

plus, frankly, the farm system seems to have third basemen. I never understood why EdE wasn't tried in LF while we moved a guy up to play third. it wouldn't have shocked if EdE found offensive consistency when he quit worrying about not being able to play third base.

LawFive
08-03-2009, 11:52 AM
from CTrent:

http://ctrentrosecrans.com/




According to the Reds, pitcher Edinson Volquez underwent surgery to repair a torn ulnar collateral ligament in his right arm — otherwise known as “Tommy John” surgery.

But according to Baseball Prospectus’ Injury Expert, Will Carroll, a bigger deal than the “Tommy John” surgery was the other part of the surgery to repair the torn flexor mass in the right elbow.

The Reds are saying Volquez is out for 12 months.

The surgery was performed by Dr. Timothy Kremcheck in Cincinnati on Monday morning.

RANDY IN INDY
08-03-2009, 11:53 AM
That sounds real bad.

LawFive
08-03-2009, 11:54 AM
That sounds real bad.

I'm not a doctor but this sounds like it has the potential for "crafty righthander" bad, at best.

BRM
08-03-2009, 11:56 AM
Walt's job this winter just got tougher. He needed to find pitching help anyway but this makes it even more crucial.

bucksfan2
08-03-2009, 11:59 AM
20 years ago this may have been true but not now. Many pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery and regain their pre-TJ stuff. IF Volquez undergoes TJ surgery, he'll still only be 27 years old when he returns. I think it's silly to write him off now.

In todays game pitchers often come back stronger from TJ surgery. I have heard Kremcheck on the radio say that he has had parents bring their kids in to see if he would perform TJ surgery so the kids arm would get stronger.

Its a shame the surgery happened today. As a starting pitcher I fully expect Volquez to make a full recovery but it will probably take around 12+ months for him to be ready to start again.

TRF
08-03-2009, 12:00 PM
Good thing the Reds traded their best SP prospect.

yippee.

princeton
08-03-2009, 12:02 PM
to Baseball Prospectus’ Injury Expert, Will Carroll, a bigger deal than the “Tommy John” surgery was the other part of the surgery to repair the torn flexor mass in the right elbow.

ugh.

15fan
08-03-2009, 12:03 PM
Keep Jose Rijo away from the post-op Volquez.

Reds Fanatic
08-03-2009, 12:04 PM
The torn flexor mass is what sounds really bad about this. On top of the regular Tommy John surgery he also has to come back from that. That apparently is a muscle on the inside of the elbow.

princeton
08-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Keep Jose Rijo away from the post-op Volquez.

I was just wondering if Edinson might not want to build a player development academy in Latin America.

good news: we didn't sign Edinson to a multi-year.

RedsBaron
08-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Regardless, we need all the depth we can get. We have no one as advanced as Stewart, which means everyone else in our system is presumptively a longer-shot than he is. Meanwhile, at the MLB level we have 2 veterans that we can't give away apparently, our once and future ace is out indefinitely with major surgery scheduled, Cueto is still just a kid in terms of experience, and the back of our rotation is currently filled by what may turn out to be 2 'never weres' in Owings and Bailey.

Given our historical trends with pitching development, and the current demise of our existing rotation, trading young arms for a veteran 3B probably isn't the wisest allocation of our resources.
A veteran 34 year old third baseman with health issues....not a wise allocation indeed for a team so far from pennant contention.

Tom Servo
08-03-2009, 12:09 PM
:explode::explode::explode::explode::explode:

BRM
08-03-2009, 12:12 PM
Good thing the Reds traded their best SP prospect.

yippee.

It's okay. They have Maloney, Ramirez and Lecure for depth.

Unassisted
08-03-2009, 12:12 PM
A year of recovery. Another year to recover fully and regain lost velocity. Will his rights still be under the Reds control in 2012?

Roy Tucker
08-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Man, I really really really hate to see that. This was finally the year when the Reds had some rocket-arms to negate their history of soft-tossers. Finally some starters taht had real *stuff*. This is even more disheartening that the current loss skid. Bah.

I hope Edinson makes a full recovery. Hang in there, kid.

BRM
08-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Does this make Walt hold onto Harang and Arroyo now? Or hang on to one of them at least?

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 12:23 PM
No, it's not true. It's your odd pathological hatred popping up again.




No hate.. And what I'm saying is not slander.

My point is this.. I suspected Volquez was going to need surgery for a long time. When Doc Hollywood tells us a player just needs a 15 day DL trip, then a little rehab, and then all will be well, I just don't believe it anymore.

For whatever reason, he consistently spins things to be not as bad as they really are. Whatever his motives are, it is consistent behavior. I'd rather him just saying nothing if he's going to give us misinformation.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Does this make Walt hold onto Harang and Arroyo now? Or hang on to one of them at least?

I don't think Walt has a choice. I don't think anyone wants Harang/Arroyo now. Maybe they will want them next year.

savafan
08-03-2009, 12:41 PM
Sure it could at the end of August the manager could be suspended for betting on his team. Or the team plane could crash and Wily Taveras could eat the pitching staff, lots of worse things could happen.

If Dusty's betting on this team, he's not even as smart as we think he is.

cumberlandreds
08-03-2009, 12:44 PM
Does this make Walt hold onto Harang and Arroyo now? Or hang on to one of them at least?

I think they about have to keep them unless you get a starter back in return. Especially since it appears there is liitle or no help in the minors.

Big Klu
08-03-2009, 01:13 PM
Good thing the Reds traded their best SP prospect.

yippee.

The one they had moved to the bullpen because he projected as a reliever?

Doc. Scott
08-03-2009, 01:15 PM
The one they had moved to the bullpen because he projected as a reliever?

While it's debatable at best for previous posters to state that Stewart was the club's best SP prospect (since his transition is far from complete), this isn't true either. It's been stated multiple times that Stewart was moved to the bullpen in Louisville to keep his innings down for 2009.

Big Klu
08-03-2009, 01:18 PM
While it's debatable at best for previous posters to state that Stewart was the club's best SP prospect (since his transition is far from complete), this isn't true either. It's been stated multiple times that Stewart was moved to the bullpen in Louisville to keep his innings down for 2009.

See, I heard exactly the opposite. I heard that he was in the rotation earlier to get his innings total up, because you can't really develop a pitcher if he is throwing ~60 innings a season. As soon as they had his total at a level they wanted, they put him back in the pen.

nate
08-03-2009, 01:19 PM
No hate.. And what I'm saying is not slander.

Oh, I must've misinterpreted what you meant called him a liar and incompetent.


My point is this.. I suspected Volquez was going to need surgery for a long time. When Doc Hollywood tells us a player just needs a 15 day DL trip, then a little rehab, and then all will be well, I just don't believe it anymore.Sometimes, they give players rest and work on rehab without surgery. For example, Brandon Webb.


For whatever reason, he consistently spins things to be not as bad as they really are. No he doesn't, that's foolish.


Whatever his motives are, it is consistent behavior. I'd rather him just saying nothing if he's going to give us misinformation.I feel that way too.

Just not about him.

nate
08-03-2009, 01:20 PM
See, I heard exactly the opposite. I heard that he was in the rotation earlier to get his innings total up, because you can't really develop a pitcher if he is throwing ~60 innings a season. As soon as they had his total at a level they wanted, they put him back in the pen.

That's what I thought too.

Doc. Scott
08-03-2009, 01:21 PM
See, I heard exactly the opposite. I heard that he was in the rotation earlier to get his innings total up, because you can't really develop a pitcher if he is throwing ~60 innings a season. As soon as they had his total at a level they wanted, they put him back in the pen.

I don't know where you would have gotten that. I read every bit of minor league news I can get my hands on and it was all consistent re: Stewart's bullpen move. Nevertheless, even if what you're referencing is true, it's still not right to claim the guy was 'penned because he "projected as a reliever".

princeton
08-03-2009, 01:27 PM
See, I heard exactly the opposite. I heard that he was in the rotation earlier to get his innings total up, because you can't really develop a pitcher if he is throwing ~60 innings a season. As soon as they had his total at a level they wanted, they put him back in the pen.

I believe that they thought that he might be a starter, which he confirmed strongly. the next aim was to get him to the bigs as quickly as possible-- AAA level-- without hurting his arm. Looked good.

then, poof! he's gone.

Hoosier Red
08-03-2009, 01:30 PM
No hate.. And what I'm saying is not slander.

My point is this.. I suspected Volquez was going to need surgery for a long time. When Doc Hollywood tells us a player just needs a 15 day DL trip, then a little rehab, and then all will be well, I just don't believe it anymore.

For whatever reason, he consistently spins things to be not as bad as they really are. Whatever his motives are, it is consistent behavior. I'd rather him just saying nothing if he's going to give us misinformation.

He never said that he just needed 15 days on the DL and all would be fine.
The alternative you're suggesting would be to cut first ask questions later. And to be honest, Kremchek's reputation is good enough that he could probably get away with that.

Instead, in a shocking move, he does what's best for the patient(but perhaps not the team) and has him rest it to see if it gets better. When that appears to be working, he brings the pitcher back slowly. When theres' a set back in the rehab he looks again, says "I have to operate before anything is certain," and when he see the Tommy John surgery is needed, he performs it.

RANDY IN INDY
08-03-2009, 01:36 PM
I had heard that it was Edinson's decision to see if they could rehab instead of surgery. It didn't work out. I don't think you can blame that on Kremchek. The patient made the decision. Either way, surgery when it happened or surgery now, it is 12 months plus.

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2009, 01:36 PM
Good thing the Reds traded their best SP prospect.

yippee.

We dealt Mike Leake? Didn't know we'd even signed him.

KoryMac5
08-03-2009, 01:48 PM
The torn flexor mass is what sounds really bad about this. On top of the regular Tommy John surgery he also has to come back from that. That apparently is a muscle on the inside of the elbow.

Long term if Edison doesn't fix some of the flaws in his mechanics this could turn out to be a chronic condition with more surgeries in his future.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Being a "glass half empty" guy, I hope you optimists who think he'll be stronger than ever and back in uniform in 2011 are right. I don't think so. In fact, there is evidence in modern applications of TJ surgery to back that up, but I admire the optimists. I guess this club has made me a pessimist.

Now we learn that there was a second problem which makes it even worse. Not good. As for trading Arroyo and Harang, I think he'll keep one of them, but I imagine medical issues had something to do with not trading Harang and Arroyo.

The new just gets badder and badder.

TheNext44
08-03-2009, 01:57 PM
Here's my plan for filling Volquez's absence next year.

Trade Harang to the Mets for Jonathan Niese. He's a lefty from Ohio, who should be a decent back end starter, and has been identified by the Mets as their best trade option. Hopefully the Mets will take on most of Harang's salary, but the Reds will have to eat some, or throw in some prospects. But that should still save the Reds around $8-10M, depending on how much is eaten.

Use that money to sign John Lackey.

I know, why wouldn't the Mets just sign John Lackey? Because they have stated they don't want any more long term contracts for a pitcher. Harang only has one more year plus an option. That is what they have said they are looking for.

Anyway it leaves these starters for 2010 on the Reds:

Cueto
Lackey
Arroyo
Bailey
Niese
Owings
Maloney

redsfan4445
08-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Long term if Edison doesn't fix some of the flaws in his mechanics this could turn out to be a chronic condition with more surgeries in his future.

I heard that Rick Peterson on MLB Network was talking about pitchers with bad mechanics and he mentioned Edison! I didnt get to see what he said, but if he is a former pitching coach that could see the problems, why oh WHY didnt our wonderful Pitching coach see this??

This team nededs a new pitching coach and a hitting coach. Go get Peterson!!

TheNext44
08-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Being a "glass half empty" guy, I hope you optimists who think he'll be stronger than ever and back in uniform in 2011 are right. I don't think so. In fact, there is evidence in modern applications of TJ surgery to back that up, but I admire the optimists. I guess this club has made me a pessimist.

Now we learn that there was a second problem which makes it even worse. Not good. As for trading Arroyo and Harang, I think he'll keep one of them, but I imagine medical issues had something to do with not trading Harang and Arroyo.

The new just gets badder and badder.

History is not on Volquez's side. Pitchers who have bounced back well from Tommy John mostly went into the pen for a few years afterward. I think that will probably be the case with Volquez.

I would not count on him as a starter until around 2012 or 2013.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2009, 02:02 PM
History is not on Volquez's side. Pitchers who have bounced back well from Tommy John mostly went into the pen for a few years afterward. I think that will probably be the case with Volquez.

I would not count on him as a starter until around 2012 or 2013.

Very true. I was wracking my brain this morning to see if I knew of any super pitchers who had TJ were the same after the surgery and could come up with none, but that's just on memory. I think the second elbow problem compounds things, too. It wouldn't surprise me if Edinson never came back to form ever again. Any surgery is a crap shoot. The odds are against him.

nate
08-03-2009, 02:08 PM
Very true. I was wracking my brain this morning to see if I knew of any super pitchers who had TJ were the same after the surgery and could come up with none, but that's just on memory. I think the second elbow problem compounds things, too. It wouldn't surprise me if Edinson never came back to form ever again. Any surgery is a crap shoot. The odds are against him.

See if any of the names from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery#List_of_baseball_players_receiv ing_the_surgery) list ring a bell. Chris Carpenter, Ryan Dempster, Erik Bedard, our very own Arthur Rhodes, etc.

bucksfan2
08-03-2009, 02:11 PM
See if any of the names from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery#List_of_baseball_players_receiv ing_the_surgery) list ring a bell. Chris Carpenter, Ryan Dempster, Erik Bedard, our very own Arthur Rhodes, etc.

Didn't Smoltz?

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2009, 02:11 PM
See if any of the names from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery#List_of_baseball_players_receiv ing_the_surgery) list ring a bell. Chris Carpenter, Ryan Dempster, Erik Bedard, our very own Arthur Rhodes, etc.

Tommy John surgery is almost completely different now than it was back in the day -- where pitchers had to come back crafty, ala Paul Wilson, if they wanted to have a career.

Most pitchers experience little to no velocity drop post-surgery. If they do have velocity drops, it's usually attributable solely to mechanical changes desigend to prevent future arm troubles.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2009, 02:12 PM
See if any of the names from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery#List_of_baseball_players_receiv ing_the_surgery) list ring a bell. Chris Carpenter, Ryan Dempster, Erik Bedard, our very own Arthur Rhodes, etc.Good examples, but I notice the list of those who didn't is longer.

I really hope Edinson is among the Carpenter, Bedard and Rhodes group. The kid came on big last year, made the all star team and now this. I feel for him.

TRF
08-03-2009, 02:12 PM
We dealt Mike Leake? Didn't know we'd even signed him.

Till he signs he's just a pick. He isn't the Reds best anything.

Doc. Scott
08-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Tommy John surgery is almost completely different now than it was back in the day -- where pitchers had to come back crafty, ala Paul Wilson, if they wanted to have a career.

Most pitchers experience little to no velocity drop post-surgery. If they do have velocity drops, it's usually attributable solely to mechanical changes desigend to prevent future arm troubles.

Paul Wilson also had shoulder/labrum issues too, didn't he?

Chip R
08-03-2009, 02:18 PM
I heard that Rick Peterson on MLB Network was talking about pitchers with bad mechanics and he mentioned Edison! I didnt get to see what he said, but if he is a former pitching coach that could see the problems, why oh WHY didnt our wonderful Pitching coach see this??

This team nededs a new pitching coach and a hitting coach. Go get Peterson!!


It could be that his delivery makes a pitcher what he is. With a violent delivery, he might be an All Star pitcher but with a different one, he might be a soft-tosser with no control.

nate
08-03-2009, 02:18 PM
Tommy John surgery is almost completely different now than it was back in the day -- where pitchers had to come back crafty, ala Paul Wilson, if they wanted to have a career.

Most pitchers experience little to no velocity drop post-surgery. If they do have velocity drops, it's usually attributable solely to mechanical changes desigend to prevent future arm troubles.

Yep.

nate
08-03-2009, 02:19 PM
Good examples, but I notice the list of those who didn't is longer.

I really hope Edinson is among the Carpenter, Bedard and Rhodes group. The kid came on big last year, made the all star team and now this. I feel for him.

See CE's post above. I think these days, the surgery is more of a career extender than a career ender. That's maybe why the list is longer.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 03:15 PM
Eh, I kind of figured it would he would need Tommy John surgery. It's better to go ahead and have the surgery now rather than trying to rest it until the spring and then having the problem resurface. Barring any major setbacks, Edinson should be ready to return next August and get a handful of starts in to build his arm up for 2011. I'm confident he'll return to previous form. Heck, some guys improve after the surgery (Dempster).

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2009, 03:25 PM
Volquez and Hamilton -- forever linked in this deal. Both with stellar 2008 seasons, both with injury-riddled 2009 campaigns.

Cyclone792
08-03-2009, 03:34 PM
It makes me wonder if this changes any potential plans to attempt to trade Harang and/or Arroyo. Either way, it's looking like the 2010 rotation may hinge upon the ability of Ball Four Bailey to start finding the strike zone consistently.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-03-2009, 03:48 PM
With the charitable donation of Stewart and now this, Mike Leake also becomes very important prospect if this cursed franchise is ever going to have a chance at being relevant again.

And once his one year anniversary of signing has passed, I'd be looking to move Alonso for a top pitching prospect.

KronoRed
08-03-2009, 04:00 PM
Volquez and Hamilton -- forever linked in this deal. Both with stellar 2008 seasons, both with injury-riddled 2009 campaigns.

Still a good deal for the Reds though, Volquez has age on his side and less "wear and tear" on the rest of his body.

Just throwing that out before the posts about how it was an awful trade start :D

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 04:02 PM
Still a good deal for the Reds though, Volquez has age on his side and less "wear and tear" on the rest of his body.

Just throwing that out before the posts about how it was an awful trade start :D

I agree 100%. Still an excellent deal for the Reds, even with the injury. We also have to remember the Reds received Danny Ray Herrera in the deal too. He's been a key part of the bullpen this season.

Jpup
08-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Still a good deal for the Reds though, Volquez has age on his side and less "wear and tear" on the rest of his body.

Just throwing that out before the posts about how it was an awful trade start :D

It was an awful trade then and it's an awful trade now. :)

TRF
08-03-2009, 04:39 PM
I'd still make this trade 10 times out of 10.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 04:39 PM
With the charitable donation of Stewart and now this, Mike Leake also becomes very important prospect if this cursed franchise is ever going to have a chance at being relevant again.

And once his one year anniversary of signing has passed, I'd be looking to move Alonso for a top pitching prospect.

The problem with moving Alonso for a top pitching prospect is the issue we're dealing with now with Volquez. There's no guarantee with young fireballers that throw 98. One twist in the wrong direction, and you can wipe out two years.

princeton
08-03-2009, 04:41 PM
Still a good deal for the Reds though, Volquez has age on his side and less "wear and tear" on the rest of his body.

even if Volquez's right arm was fully amputated, you'd still be talking about the greater unknown damage within Josh Hamilton.

me I always prefer ballplayers who can actually raise their arms above their heads over ones that cannot

Dom Heffner
08-03-2009, 05:02 PM
I'd still make this trade 10 times out of 10.

And you'd be wrong 10 out of 10 times.

:)

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 05:21 PM
Yeah, because Hamilton is really tearing it up this year. I'd make that trade 1000 times out of 1000.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 05:34 PM
Yeah, because Hamilton is really tearing it up this year. I'd make that trade 1000 times out of 1000.

Well, first of all, I agree with you. I'd do the trade again, also.

But I think it's unfair to point out Hamilton's struggles this year in making the argument that you'd do the trade again. Sure he's been hurt and unproductive, but so has Volquez. And all of a sudden Volquez's future looks very much in doubt. So it's been a rough go for Josh, but he can definitely bounce back with a strong last two months. Wish we could say the same for Edinson.

Brutus
08-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Well, first of all, I agree with you. I'd do the trade again, also.

But I think it's unfair to point out Hamilton's struggles this year in making the argument that you'd do the trade again. Sure he's been hurt and unproductive, but so has Volquez. And all of a sudden Volquez's future looks very much in doubt. So it's been a rough go for Josh, but he can definitely bounce back with a strong last two months. Wish we could say the same for Edinson.

One of the reasons the Reds traded Hamilton, though, was the belief he would have a hard time staying healthy. While it's ironic, now, that Volquez went under the knife, this is something that they felt would be a problematic issue for Hamilton, making the trade easier to do. So far, they've been right.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2009, 05:47 PM
Pitchers are unreliable. Have too many of them and maybe a few shake out.

I imagine Arroyo and Harang are sticking around now. Not because that's good strategy necessarily, but because they need someone to throw innings.

Degenerate39
08-03-2009, 05:49 PM
Edinson Volquez’s surgery was major -- major enough that next year maybe a wash.



The ulnar collateral ligament was almost completely torn. He also had a tear in the flexor mass.


“It’s going to approximately 12 months because he had to have the ligament reconstructed and flexor mass repaired,” Mann said “He will come back and pitch in the second half of next year.


“It will most likely be 2011 before you see the old Edinson Volquez is back.”


Volquez previous MRIs are inconclusive.


“Both MRIs – when had the initial complains and again before we let him start throwing on the mound – showed that he had some degenerative changes to his ligament. But there was no evidence of a gross tear. When Dr. (Tim) Kremchek found when he got in there today not was there a team flexor mass, but there was a tear in ligament. It was almost as completely torn.”


It came to light today that Volquez threw 99 pitches in his first start at Winter Ball.


“He was supposed to throw 50,” Reds pitching coach Dick Pole said. “The only reason I know is it was against (Johnny) Cueto’s team and his coach, who I know, counted Volquez’s pitches.”


Winter Ball followed by the World Baseball Classic put a lot of strain on Volquez’s arm.


“That’s a lot of throwing,” Pole said. “Most of the guys who threw the Classic the first time didn’t repeat. The rigors of getting ready that early are tough.”


The Reds can’t prevent players from playing in the Classic. They tried to get Volquez and Cueto to skip Winter Ball.


“There’s big time pressure on the them to play and perform,” Dusty Baker said. “Plus, the money they’re paying these guys. $400,000 (the MLB minimum) is a lot of money. But after you pay taxes and 25 members of your family , it’s not a lot.”

Baker said the Reds will continue to keep Cueto on a pitch count and give him extra days.

Don't know if this has been posted or not

Cyclone792
08-03-2009, 05:57 PM
It came to light today that Volquez threw 99 pitches in his first start at Winter Ball.

“He was supposed to throw 50,” Reds pitching coach Dick Pole said. “The only reason I know is it was against (Johnny) Cueto’s team and his coach, who I know, counted Volquez’s pitches.”

It is absolute total organizational incompetence that not only did that happen, but that the Reds just now found this out.

The Reds' organization is run by a complete stockpile of idiots, and it's a franchise that deserves every ounce of crap that's been handed to them.

nate
08-03-2009, 05:59 PM
Ah...I'm looking for words...let's see, how about:

Wow.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 06:14 PM
The Reds can’t prevent players from playing in the Classic. They tried to get Volquez and Cueto to skip Winter Ball.


“There’s big time pressure on the them to play and perform,” Dusty Baker said. “Plus, the money they’re paying these guys. $400,000 (the MLB minimum) is a lot of money. But after you pay taxes and 25 members of your family , it’s not a lot.”


That's false. There was an article in September of last year where Dusty was quoted as saying he hoped Cueto/Volquez pitched winter ball so they could get a head start on 2009.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Here's a quote from Dusty on September 27th, 2008:

WINTER PLANS: The Reds will allow both Johnny Cueto and Volquez to pitch winter ball.

"We want them to do what they did last year," Baker said. "It worked for them big time. . . They came in spring training ready last year. Cueto made the team because he was ready."

Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said the Reds would limit the innings Cueto and Volquez throw.

"Definitely," he said. "We can do that."

The other factor will be if either or both are selected to pitch for the Dominican Republic in the World Baseball Classic.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67520&page=22&highlight=Volquez

Brutus
08-03-2009, 06:18 PM
That's BS. There was an article in September of last year where Dusty was quoted as saying he hoped Cueto/Volquez pitched winter ball so they could get a head start on 2009.

Before proclaiming BS, it should be determined if the article means "the Reds" as in the entire organization or "the Reds" as in the front office.

Dusty Baker's opinions do not necessarily speak for that of the entire organization. It's not fair to say it's BS that the front office wanted them to pitch just because Baker said he hoped so.

I entirely agree the Reds should have known how much these guys were pitching when in Winter Ball. However, Winter Ball is not their jurisdiction, and if in fact it's true the players themselves wanted to play, unless their contracts stipulate they are not allowed to, the Reds don't have much recourse to stop it.

EDIT: I just saw the second article posted. It would seem the Reds were on board with it, although Jocketty was not quoted himself as saying he wanted it, only that they could limit the innings. If you take the two quotes together, it seems everyone is on board. However, context is key.

reds44
08-03-2009, 06:22 PM
Krivsky had a wonderful plan with Hamilton. He took a risk in the rule 5, and once he showed promise and had value he immediatley dealt him. One of the smartest and most well planned out moves by a Reds GM that I have ever seen. I'd do that trade 100 times out of 100.

Josh Hamilton has been bad this year, and his body could break down at any minute, and he's always a replapse away from being kicked out of the league.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 06:26 PM
“I just hope he heals up and is able to pitch next year,” Pole added. “I’ve seen some guys - Steve Karsay, who I had in Cleveland - when he was with Oakland pitched 91 and 92. After he had the Tommy John he was pitching 98, for crying out loud. It seems invariably that anybody who has that surgery comes back throwing better than they do before.”

The Reds can only hope.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/08/03/who_gets_the_rope_for_volque.html

Brutus
08-03-2009, 06:27 PM
“I just hope he heals up and is able to pitch next year,” Pole added. “I’ve seen some guys - Steve Karsay, who I had in Cleveland - when he was with Oakland pitched 91 and 92. After he had the Tommy John he was pitching 98, for crying out loud. It seems invariably that anybody who has that surgery comes back throwing better than they do before.”

The Reds can only hope.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/08/03/who_gets_the_rope_for_volque.html

I wonder how much of that was due to PED's and how much was modern medicine. It's, unfortunately, beginning to look to me like a lot of guys that had to go through these procedures were aiding themselves with enhancers to get through the post-surgery rehabilitation.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 06:28 PM
One of the reasons the Reds traded Hamilton, though, was the belief he would have a hard time staying healthy. While it's ironic, now, that Volquez went under the knife, this is something that they felt would be a problematic issue for Hamilton, making the trade easier to do. So far, they've been right.

I agree with that. But with that being said, all of a sudden Hamilton's health looks a hell of a lot more promising than Edinson's.

When you trade for a pitcher, this is the risk you take. That's why I'm not losing any sleep over giving up Stewart.

Brutus
08-03-2009, 06:32 PM
I agree with that. But with that being said, all of a sudden Hamilton's health looks a hell of a lot more promising than Edinson's.

When you trade for a pitcher, this is the risk you take. That's why I'm not losing any sleep over giving up Stewart.

No question there's more risk with pitching. I agree with that completely. I think risky hitters are always less a risk than pitchers. But if I have a pitcher who has not shown substantial injury problems to date, I feel at least somewhat better about trading a hitter I feel is prone to injury than normal. Though the Reds could use a Josh Hamilton, at the time, they needed a true ace in the worst way. I still would do this trade even if I had a chance to undo it.

RANDY IN INDY
08-03-2009, 06:35 PM
I heard that Rick Peterson on MLB Network was talking about pitchers with bad mechanics and he mentioned Edison! I didnt get to see what he said, but if he is a former pitching coach that could see the problems, why oh WHY didnt our wonderful Pitching coach see this??

This team nededs a new pitching coach and a hitting coach. Go get Peterson!!

Not as simple as seeing something and fixing it when a pitcher has pitched a certain way for such a long time. Sometimes, trying to fix it can really mess things up, as well. Volquez kind of leads with his elbow which is not a good thing. I imagine that it will be a hard one to fix.

WMR
08-03-2009, 06:44 PM
It is absolute total organizational incompetence that not only did that happen, but that the Reds just now found this out.

The Reds' organization is run by a complete stockpile of idiots, and it's a franchise that deserves every ounce of crap that's been handed to them.

It truly boggles the mind.

IslandRed
08-03-2009, 06:57 PM
It is absolute total organizational incompetence that not only did that happen, but that the Reds just now found this out.

"It came to light" is usually media-speak for "they knew all along but never told us." I didn't read that as the Reds just now finding out.

The Reds sent Volquez down there with instructions to limit his pitches and innings, but winter leagues aren't under team control. Short of stationing someone at the ballpark with a clicker and a deer rifle, I'm not sure how they're supposed to prevent that before the fact.

But yeah... 99 is bad.

KoryMac5
08-03-2009, 07:04 PM
Winter ball is a different world down there, as most teams will do whatever it takes to win. I am sure the Reds told Volquez and Cueto to monitor their pitch counts but unfortunately it looks like Edison got caught up in wanting to do what he could to help his team win. I would imagine teams with bigger payrolls may start sending staff down to monitor MLB players who elect to play winter ball.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-03-2009, 09:13 PM
I'm going to throw something out there that might be ridiculed, but when Volquez is ready to throw again and begins rehabbing, how about grooming him to be a closer?

The guy was never really too effecient with his high pitch count and low innings. Maybe by 2011, he can be the closer, giving them two years to rid themselves of the Cordero albatross contact.

Just a thought.

TheNext44
08-03-2009, 09:30 PM
I'm going to throw something out there that might be ridiculed, but when Volquez is ready to throw again and begins rehabbing, how about grooming him to be a closer?

The guy was never really too effecient with his high pitch count and low innings. Maybe by 2011, he can be the closer, giving them two years to rid themselves of the Cordero albatross contact.

Just a thought.

That a very smart thought. I hope the Reds are thinking the same way.

It worked great for Smoltz and Dempster, and they both eventually became TOR starters again after a few years as a closer.

If Cordero is still on the team in 2011, then Volquez can set him up, learn from him, and then close in 2012. :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
08-03-2009, 09:32 PM
From "ace" to closer. Yikes.

I wouldn't be opposed to it. Still need 2 starters, one of them a TOR. Still the same ain't nothin' changed.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 09:32 PM
I'm going to throw something out there that might be ridiculed, but when Volquez is ready to throw again and begins rehabbing, how about grooming him to be a closer?

The guy was never really too effecient with his high pitch count and low innings. Maybe by 2011, he can be the closer, giving them two years to rid themselves of the Cordero albatross contact.

Just a thought.

This requires thinking outside the box.

This is against organization policy. You know this! ;)

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 09:52 PM
Before proclaiming BS, it should be determined if the article means "the Reds" as in the entire organization or "the Reds" as in the front office.



I agree. It looks like the Reds told Volquez's team to only go 50 pitches on this first start, and they ignored it. We can't expect the Reds to hire a guy to follow every pitcher around winter ball and babysit the manager. Hard to see this as the Reds' fault. Volquez and Cueto are not pieces of property owned by the Reds, they are human beings that make their own decisions. The Reds can't stop players from playing winter ball. The Reds can't stop them from pitching in the WBC. If Volquez got hurt by throwing too many pitches in winter ball (against the Reds' advice), the blame goes on him, not Dusty or Walt.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 09:54 PM
Not as simple as seeing something and fixing it when a pitcher has pitched a certain way for such a long time. Sometimes, trying to fix it can really mess things up, as well. Volquez kind of leads with his elbow which is not a good thing. I imagine that it will be a hard one to fix.

Yes, that is another good point. The Reds tried to fix Ryan Wagner's motion because he had high risk mechanics. They ended up making him ineffective.

hebroncougar
08-03-2009, 10:25 PM
I agree. It looks like the Reds told Volquez's team to only go 50 pitches on this first start, and they ignored it. We can't expect the Reds to hire a guy to follow every pitcher around winter ball and babysit the manager. Hard to see this as the Reds' fault. Volquez and Cueto are not pieces of property owned by the Reds, they are human beings that make their own decisions. The Reds can't stop players from playing winter ball. The Reds can't stop them from pitching in the WBC. If Volquez got hurt by throwing too many pitches in winter ball (against the Reds' advice), the blame goes on him, not Dusty or Walt.

When the arms in question are Cueto and Volquez, I'd make darned sure if it took hiring someone to monitor their pitch counts in winter ball, then I'd get it done. I'd also tell them whether they can pitch in the WBC or not, that's spring training time, and you'd think they could make them report. There are lots of guys that "skip" the WBC.

Big Klu
08-03-2009, 10:30 PM
When the arms in question are Cueto and Volquez, I'd make darned sure if it took hiring someone to monitor their pitch counts in winter ball, then I'd get it done. I'd also tell them whether they can pitch in the WBC or not, that's spring training time, and you'd think they could make them report. There are lots of guys that "skip" the WBC.

The Reds can't do that. Bud has explicitly instructed the 30 MLB clubs that they cannot prohibit or in any way hinder any player from participating in the WBC.

westofyou
08-03-2009, 10:33 PM
Pitching is the most unnatural act in all of baseball, maybe even all of sports, trying to pin the blame for an injury to a pitcher on someone other than the hurler is the most natural act in all of baseball

alexad
08-03-2009, 10:39 PM
The Reds can't do that. Bud has explicitly instructed the 30 MLB clubs that they cannot prohibit or in any way hinder any player from participating in the WBC.


Yea and we should All Start games in a tie and better yet, who ever wins the All Star game gets home field advantage. Boy Bud is a VERY VERY BRIGHT MAN???????

This happens everytime they do this stupid classic thing. It kills players, kills teams and kills fan support of their favorite MLB team. This is baseball for crying out loud. Who cares if a player is white, black, Canadian, Mexican, American, who cares. What does it really matter in the long run. A player winning a preseason scrimmage or winning it all with the team they belong too 162 games out of the year.

I HATE THE WBC!!

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 10:41 PM
Yea and we should All Start games in a tie and better yet, who ever wins the All Star game gets home field advantage. Boy Bud is a VERY VERY BRIGHT MAN???????

This happens everytime they do this stupid classic thing. It kills players, kills teams and kills fan support of their favorite MLB team. This is baseball for crying out loud. Who cares if a player is white, black, Canadian, Mexican, American, who cares. What does it really matter in the long run. A player winning a preseason scrimmage or winning it all with the team they belong too 162 games out of the year.

I HATE THE WBC!!

I don't care for the WBC either, but I don't attribute Edinson's injury to the WBC. Even if he had not participated in the classic, his arm still would have blown out eventually.

Brutus
08-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Pitching is the most unnatural act in all of baseball, maybe even all of sports, trying to pin the blame for an injury to a pitcher on someone other than the hurler is the most natural act in all of baseball

I agree with this. Baseball is a game of failure by its very nature. The trick is not to succeed, but rather most effectively manage your risk. You are bound to fail in baseball. It's just a matter of limiting the number and frequency of your failures.

You can pamper, baby and nurse your pitchers 24-7, and you will still wind up with a whole lot of injuries.

KoryMac5
08-03-2009, 11:30 PM
That a very smart thought. I hope the Reds are thinking the same way.

It worked great for Smoltz and Dempster, and they both eventually became TOR starters again after a few years as a closer.

If Cordero is still on the team in 2011, then Volquez can set him up, learn from him, and then close in 2012. :thumbup:

Worked for Izzy as he was a starter when the Mets had him in the minors. Even though arm trouble did follow him around he was able to hang around and have a good career because he didn;t have to throw a ton of pitches over and over with those bad mechanics.

Reds Fanatic
08-04-2009, 12:09 AM
I'm going to throw something out there that might be ridiculed, but when Volquez is ready to throw again and begins rehabbing, how about grooming him to be a closer?

The guy was never really too effecient with his high pitch count and low innings. Maybe by 2011, he can be the closer, giving them two years to rid themselves of the Cordero albatross contact.

Just a thought.

It is a good thought but I doubt anyone in this organization is smart enough to even give it a thought. This is the same organization that a week ago thought Volquez would be making his first rehab start around now.

Topcat
08-04-2009, 02:40 AM
Sad sad news:(. I so wish EV all the best but the road back will be very difficult.

RANDY IN INDY
08-04-2009, 07:49 AM
Pitching is the most unnatural act in all of baseball, maybe even all of sports, trying to pin the blame for an injury to a pitcher on someone other than the hurler is the most natural act in all of baseball

You are making way too much sense. The time to structure pitching mechanics is when they are 11 or 12. Even then, and even with the best of pitching mechanics, it is still so very hard on the arm. My son has great mechanics and I still cringe every time that he pitches when I think about what it is doing to his arm.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-04-2009, 08:05 AM
You are making way too much sense. The time to structure pitching mechanics is when they are 11 or 12. Even then, and even with the best of pitching mechanics, it is still so very hard on the arm. My son has great mechanics and I still cringe every time that he pitches when I think about what it is doing to his arm.

Speaking as someone that broke their arm throwing a baseball, I can agree with this. I had great mechanics, but it didn't matter too much when it came down to it.

mbgrayson
08-04-2009, 06:18 PM
Fair use excerpt from August 4, 2009 Baseball Propsectus article (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9333)by by Will Carroll on this surgery:


Edinson Volquez (10/4)
It was a busy day for surgeons, as Tim Kremchek had to go into Volquez's elbow. As expected, Volquez had a torn UCL, which was replaced in a Tommy John procedure. What wasn't expected was the flexor mass problem that was revealed, which multiple sources described as either "shredded" or "ruptured." The Reds say they expect Volquez back in 12 months, a very specific timetable which surprised many Reds watchers. Normally, the Reds estimate 9-12 months, so was the full 12 an indication of thinking that the flexor issue would keep him from hitting the aggressive end of the timetable, or is it—as I think—that 12 is the best-case scenario, and that they didn't want to give an even more conservative estimate? For all intents Volquez is done for 2010, but he's young enough to correct his mechanics and come back well.

OnBaseMachine
08-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Edinson Volquez was back in the Reds clubhouse among his teammates and wearing a rather cumbersome metal brace all the way up his right arm. On Aug. 3, Volquez had Tommy John surgery performed on his right elbow by Dr. Tim Kremchek.

"They gave me a DVD of the surgery and I saw what they did. It wasn't good. That's crazy," Volquez said. "It was the first time I've seen that. I went back to my place and watched it on my computer. I wanted to see what they did to me."

Always a smiling and optimistic guy, Volquez believed he could still return to pitch at some point in 2010. He should be allowed to begin throwing in December and possibly work off of a mound by March.

"Right now if everything goes good and I keep doing everything I'm doing now, I could be back in a year, maybe nine or 10 months," Volquez said. "Kremchek I might be ready by May or June. Everything is going great right now. You can see there is no more swelling. They took the stitches out yesterday. I surprised them because they've seen me do a lot of stuff with my arm in exercises for the first week and a half. They're happy now."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/