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GIDP
07-31-2009, 04:56 PM
You spend years watching prospects grow as players, watching them turn into solid players and even great players just to watch them dumped.

Let me ask you why do you care? I seriously have no answers for myself. How do you guys feel about it? Zach Stewart going from a good pitcher to a guy I simply loved to being something I will never be able to watch if he turns out to be good.

Do you guys have the same feelings as me when it comes to these guy? Its like a part of you is ripped out. Makes me question why I even care enough to check their numbers daily. Todd Frazier for all I know next year could be in the Yankees farm system or the Braves or the Mets.

What say you?

redsof72
07-31-2009, 05:02 PM
I can't believe they are giving up Stewart. I just called one of the Reds minor league pitching coaches that Stewart pitched for and he called this trade "off the wall nuts."

I would rather have given up Alonso than Stewart.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2009, 05:02 PM
They are assets, nothing more. Like to follow them. Enjoy the success, but no need for the emotion. It clouds judgment and keeps teams from making moves to help the parent club. (Which is the goal of minor leaguers.)

GOYA
07-31-2009, 05:04 PM
I care because I'm a Reds fan.

It hurts because I'm a Reds fan.

I feel better because I'm a Bats fan.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:06 PM
I can't believe they are giving up Stewart. I just called one of the Reds minor league pitching coaches that Stewart pitched for and he called this trade "off the wall nuts."

I would rather have given up Alonso than Stewart.

I dont know about that because I would hope Alonso could get us a pitcher ala laporta but after this I really am afraid of what they would trade him for.

I'm really just talking like what does it feel like for you guys when someone like a Stewart, gets dealt. I feel like someone kicking me in the groin and then trying to help me up.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:08 PM
They are assets, nothing more. Like to follow them. Enjoy the success, but no need for the emotion. It clouds judgment and keeps teams from making moves to help the parent club. (Which is the goal of minor leaguers.)

Fair enough but you dont ever see them as anything other than useless guys? You dont care if they ever play for the Reds?

There is a handful of guys right now I would never want the reds to trade unless I'm pretty much blown away given how the Reds have to build a club. when one of those guys go its brutal to me.

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 05:16 PM
I can't believe they are giving up Stewart. I just called one of the Reds minor league pitching coaches that Stewart pitched for and he called this trade "off the wall nuts."

I would rather have given up Alonso than Stewart.

Thats exactly how I feel. The difference between Stewart and Alonso as prospects is incredibly small. The difference is, its much easier to find a solid first baseman on the market than it is a solid starting pitcher. Zach Stewart was too much to give up by himself for Scott Rolen in my opinion.

redsof72
07-31-2009, 05:19 PM
Alonso plays one position and its the position your best player plays. Giving up your best pitching prospect for a 34 year old with a bad back...oh brother. I liked the idea of getting Rolen because I thought this was a good time to start adding players for 2010, but not for this. Reminds me of B.J. Ryan for Juan Guzman.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:20 PM
Thats exactly how I feel. The difference between Stewart and Alonso as prospects is incredibly small. The difference is, its much easier to find a solid first baseman on the market than it is a solid starting pitcher. Zach Stewart was too much to give up by himself for Scott Rolen in my opinion.

The problem I have with Stewart is that even if he doesnt pan out as a starter he was still very likely to be a back end reliever. That was what they were even saying out of college. Its not like he came from no where and had a good year.

BTW doug I dont know too much about other guys farms really but did any bigger than Stewart pitching prospects get dealt today?

why do I feel like if we added some other prospects we could have Victor Martinez or Cliff Lee. I feel like we took the Reds route with a prospect like we do with contracts. Instead of going after the big guy on a 6 year deal we took the lower guy and gave him an over paid 3 year deal.

IowaRed
07-31-2009, 05:22 PM
it's also the philosophy of this trade that is maddening. I'm all for getting better players but to give up 3 younger guys, including 2 young (at the very least) decent pitching prospects for a 34 year old oft-injured 3B is not the direction the 2009 Reds should be headed in. It may keep them out of last place this year but still the wrong direction

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 05:25 PM
The problem I have with Stewart is that even if he doesnt pan out as a starter he was still very likely to be a back end reliever. That was what they were even saying out of college. Its not like he came from no where and had a good year.

BTW doug I dont know too much about other guys farms really but did any bigger than Stewart pitching prospects get dealt today?

why do I feel like if we added some other prospects we could have Victor Martinez or Cliff Lee. I feel like we took the Reds route with a prospect like we do with contracts. Instead of going after the big guy on a 6 year deal we took the lower guy and gave him an over paid 3 year deal.
In my opinion, Zach Stewart was the best pitching prospect moved during the deadline followed closely by Jason Knapp. The difference is Knapp is on the DL with shoulder issues and in Low A.

I mean if the Reds wanted to really shake things up, why didn't they just offer Alonso, Stewart, Roenicke, EE, Stubbs/Heisey and Todd Frazier for Halladay and Rolen and just gotten it done (heck, take out Frazier and add Bailey if they want)?

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:26 PM
In my opinion, Zach Stewart was the best pitching prospect moved during the deadline followed closely by Jason Knapp. The difference is Knapp is on the DL with shoulder issues and in Low A.

I mean if the Reds wanted to really shake things up, why didn't they just offer Alonso, Stewart, Roenicke, EE, Stubbs/Heisey and Todd Frazier for Halladay and Rolen and just gotten it done (heck, take out Frazier and add Bailey if they want)?

Thats really how I feel.

Considering what the Indians got for Lee and Martinez I think its safe to say we could have added just a bit more and got so much more value in return.

Every year we see these deals with the money and now we are doing it with prospects.

HokieRed
07-31-2009, 05:38 PM
1. I don't like giving up Stewart at all but I'd much rather keep Alonso.
2. I loved EE in the minors and when he came up but have had to give up on the idea that he will ever realize his talent in Cinti., mostly b/c he simply is not a 3bman.
3. Rolen makes us better for 2010.
4. Rolen allows our guys to pitch inside freely to righthanders, knowing a pulled ball to the left side may actually get caught and the play turned.
5. I'm not sure if this deal makes it more or less likely we see Todd Frazier in Cinti. WJ is saying he wants to keep Rolen beyond 2010; that would seem to take Todd F. out of the 3d. base sweepstakes. On the other hand, maybe they think he actually can hold down LF or he'll become that ideal supersub after Alonso moves to 1b and Votto to LF.
6. I like the fact it wasn't Stubbs or Heisey. I like the fact the pitcher wasn't Homer. I think the difference between Rolen and EE great enough, and the problem presented by EE's lack of a position significant enough, that you weren't going to make this deal without a significant prospect--read, somebody with more upside than Roenicke.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:43 PM
Certainly think that talk that Frazier is a 3rd baseman is all but finished when it comes to him playing there for the Redsd.

bubbachunk
07-31-2009, 05:44 PM
Certainly think that talk that Frazier is a 3rd baseman is all but finished when it comes to him playing there for the Redsd.

Yep he will be limited to spot starts or when Rolen goes to the dl.

I cannot get over Stewart being in that trade. I may need a break.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
In my opinion, Zach Stewart was the best pitching prospect moved during the deadline followed closely by Jason Knapp. The difference is Knapp is on the DL with shoulder issues and in Low A.

I mean if the Reds wanted to really shake things up, why didn't they just offer Alonso, Stewart, Roenicke, EE, Stubbs/Heisey and Todd Frazier for Halladay and Rolen and just gotten it done (heck, take out Frazier and add Bailey if they want)?

What about Tim Alderson? I have to say trading Stewart is starting to make me physically ill.

I hate you right now Walt, I hate you and I don't care who knows it!

DTCromer
07-31-2009, 05:51 PM
You spend years watching prospects grow as players, watching them turn into solid players and even great players just to watch them dumped.

Let me ask you why do you care? I seriously have no answers for myself. How do you guys feel about it? Zach Stewart going from a good pitcher to a guy I simply loved to being something I will never be able to watch if he turns out to be good.

Do you guys have the same feelings as me when it comes to these guy? Its like a part of you is ripped out. Makes me question why I even care enough to check their numbers daily. Todd Frazier for all I know next year could be in the Yankees farm system or the Braves or the Mets.

What say you?

I've been wondering about that here for most guys. At least Doug follows and critiques the minors for $. Everyone else here are following guys they've more-than-likely never talked to and who more-than-likely won't pan out. I'm not saying Stewart won't, but some people on here are way too attached to following these young kids.

Buck up GIDP, at least Jay Bruce may someday become lucky and hit .250.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:58 PM
I've been wondering about that here for most guys. At least Doug follows and critiques the minors for $. Everyone else here are following guys they've more-than-likely never talked to and who more-than-likely won't pan out. I'm not saying Stewart won't, but some people on here are way too attached to following these young kids.

Buck up GIDP, at least Jay Bruce may someday become lucky and hit .250.

I'm not attached to these kids like I never want them traded but when you take someone who has the potential of Stewart and trade him like his potential is a robert manuel you really have to get frustrated.

krm1580
07-31-2009, 06:00 PM
I am pissed. They could have picked ANY other pitcher in the farm system, Sulbaran, Wood, anybody - hell they even could have thrown in Mike Leake and I would be only marginally annoyed. And for what? 1.5 years of Scott Rolen? Realistically, its one year of Scott Rolen, since this year is pretty much shot.

I completely understand the people that make the argument that you would rather have a productive player than a maybe, since over the last 10 years this team's history is littered with maybes that turned into never happeneds. And if we acquired the 27 year old Scott Rolen that St. Louis got back in 2002 I would be 100% on board. But we got a 35 year old, injury prone 3B for 1.5 years.

Unless I am missing something, I really don't get this trade. Are we really only a declining Scott Rolen away from the playoffs? If the answer is no, which I think it is, why do you do it?

dougdirt
07-31-2009, 06:05 PM
What about Tim Alderson? I have to say trading Stewart is starting to make me physically ill.

I hate you right now Walt, I hate you and I don't care who knows it!

I like Tim Alderson, but I think he is a little behind those guys. He has a middling fastball, solid control and a good curve. He has funny mechanics though and is seen as a reliever by some.

Superdude
07-31-2009, 06:07 PM
I've never actually cared this much. I actually feel depressed right now...like an old gray haired man in a sport coat took my favorite puppy and stabbed it to death...and then tried to convince me it was all for the best. :cry: I actually teared up. That emoticon's not lying.

GOYA
07-31-2009, 06:08 PM
At some point, continuously looking to the future has to be converted to present performance. But I'm not sure that this is the time to do that. I like Rolen but I don't like him this much. Especially when the Reds will still be also-rans.

kfm
07-31-2009, 06:15 PM
In my opinion, Zach Stewart was the best pitching prospect moved during the deadline followed closely by Jason Knapp. The difference is Knapp is on the DL with shoulder issues and in Low A.

I mean if the Reds wanted to really shake things up, why didn't they just offer Alonso, Stewart, Roenicke, EE, Stubbs/Heisey and Todd Frazier for Halladay and Rolen and just gotten it done (heck, take out Frazier and add Bailey if they want)?

I could not agree with you more. We already have a very good offensive first basemen who we will have to move to a new position if Alonso develops into a major leaguer. It is so much easier to find someone like Alonso than to draft and develop someone like Stewart. Also keep in mind, stewart is closer to major league ready than Alonso is. I hate this trade more than I have ever hated any trade any of my favorite teams have ever made. I would not have traded Stewart straight up for Rolen.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2009, 06:21 PM
LOL. I can't believe Walt Jocketty actually thought this was a good idea. Incredible. Awful, awful trade. I would rather have Stewart than Alonso.

13 in hall
07-31-2009, 06:23 PM
What to say guys? Maybe it's time to start following the Reds and rooting for someone else!! What in the world are we going to do when in five years when Joey goes home to Toronto and Jay heads off to Boston or N.Y. I am just starting to follow Yorman and I'm affraid that this off season will be filled with more of these type deals. The best prospects sent off for players and cash.

Are we stuck in baseball hell? The baseball gods must be oh so angry at whatever the Reds did somewhere in the past. Call me crazy but I would much rather be a Pirate fan at this time than a Red fan. At least they went all in with there kids and are not half way like the Reds always seem to be!!
Walt went all Brokeback Mountain I guess I can now quote it "I just can't quit you"

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:24 PM
I can't believe they are giving up Stewart. I just called one of the Reds minor league pitching coaches that Stewart pitched for and he called this trade "off the wall nuts."

I would rather have given up Alonso than Stewart.

They may as well given Toronto Alonso, too. It made as much sense.

Senility has set in with Baker, and Jockety.

I wish I was in Cincinnati so I could publicly tell these buffoons what I think. I'd get thrown out of GAB, but that wouldn't be any great loss, that's for sure.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:29 PM
Seriously, I'm done with the REDS while the buffoon Baker is around, Jockety is around, and Castellini continues to make idiotic front-office moves. There are some good clubs to like out there....the Padres, the Mariners, the A's, the Blue Jays, the Phillies....anyone but the REDS. Enough is enough.

In 40 years, I've never seen a dumber move by any franchise in any sport (that wasn't fixed by the leauge (Pau Gasol to the Lakers for his brother, for example).

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:33 PM
In my opinion, Zach Stewart was the best pitching prospect moved during the deadline.

My first thought. And we threw in EE and Roenicke.

I seriously wouldn't trade Stewart for two Scott Rolens straight up. And, I don't think 99% of the scouts out there would either.

The REDS' scouts have to be tearing their hair out and getting their resumes put together so they can jettison this organization. If I was Rick Sweet, I'd be looking for another job, too. This franchise stinks like bad cheese right now.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:34 PM
But, they acquired Balentien!

Brilliant!

GOYA
07-31-2009, 07:57 PM
In 40 years, I've never seen a dumber move by any franchise in any sport

I'm a Vikings fan. Remember Herschel Walker?

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm a Vikings fan. Remember Herschel Walker?

That was bad.

GOYA
07-31-2009, 08:55 PM
That was bad.

No, that was devastating.

NC Reds
07-31-2009, 08:58 PM
I hate this trade. I think a model franchise develops the bulk of its roster through the draft and its own player development system. I enjoyed watching Stewart make great strides and was really looking forward to him helping the big club. Now I get to watch an aging vet on a mediocre team.

Yay.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:25 PM
Now I get to watch an aging vet on a mediocre team.

Yay.

Like Larkin and Junior's later years. No REDS' fan more than you knows how horrible a trade this was as you watched Stewart in Carolina, I assume, this year.

NC Reds
07-31-2009, 09:58 PM
Like Larkin and Junior's later years. No REDS' fan more than you knows how horrible a trade this was as you watched Stewart in Carolina, I assume, this year.

Until the recent roster shakeup, the Mudcats were a pleasure to watch. Wood and Stewart were a terrific combo down here.

Red Daddy
07-31-2009, 10:28 PM
I am totally stunned by this trade. Stewart is special and it baffles me that Jocketty doesn't know that. Remember, if he had his way, Dye would be in the lineup and Homer would be gone. Dye's good, but he's 35!! Roenicke is going to be a good ML pitcher, better than Lincoln, Herrera, Bray, Fisher, and probably Burton.

And then, Weens from the Yankees????? Jeez!!! How did they even know who he is, and if they do know who he is, how do they not know who Stewart is!!!???

mac624
07-31-2009, 10:41 PM
Jocketty says Rolen is as good a 3B that's EVER played the game in his opinion ranking him up there with Schimdt and Robinson. So if you look at it that way, the Reds got a future Hall of Famer for an error prone, low average hitting 3B, a bull pen guy, and a question mark.

Sure, Stewart may end up being the next John Smoltz, but he could easily go and blow out his arm next year or next week, or even end up being somewhat mediocre in the majors.

In Rolen, we got a proven commidity. Sure, he's dinged and not showroom floor brand new, but he's better on the field and in the clubhouse than any of the 3 we got him for.

I'm a little bummed about Stewart leaving, but I'm glad we have Rolen much more. I remember other forums going ape chit whenever Zach Ward was traded, and look how that turned out. Again, Stewart may end up differently, but I'm very happy with Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo, Volquez, etc that is available and I still like our bullpen options too.

VR
07-31-2009, 11:28 PM
I'm a Vikings fan. Remember Herschel Walker?

Nice Goya, there are a few of us around....and you are dead on. It would be like the Reds trading their entire A-AA rosters for Rolen.

I'm also a lifelong Sixers fan....and could spend the rest of my evening posting about their knucklehead moves over the last 20 years that are far worse.

Oh well.

11larkin11
07-31-2009, 11:30 PM
Jocketty says Rolen is as good a 3B that's EVER played the game in his opinion ranking him up there with Schimdt and Robinson. So if you look at it that way, the Reds got a future Hall of Famer for an error prone, low average hitting 3B, a bull pen guy, and a question mark.
Sure, Stewart may end up being the next John Smoltz, but he could easily go and blow out his arm next year or next week, or even end up being somewhat mediocre in the majors.

In Rolen, we got a proven commidity. Sure, he's dinged and not showroom floor brand new, but he's better on the field and in the clubhouse than any of the 3 we got him for.

I'm a little bummed about Stewart leaving, but I'm glad we have Rolen much more. I remember other forums going ape chit whenever Zach Ward was traded, and look how that turned out. Again, Stewart may end up differently, but I'm very happy with Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo, Volquez, etc that is available and I still like our bullpen options too.

Thats one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is an aging 34 year old back problems for a High OPS third baseman, a future closer, and a TOR Starter. Theres two ends to every spectrum

JayBruce
07-31-2009, 11:32 PM
Jocketty says Rolen is as good a 3B that's EVER played the game in his opinion ranking him up there with Schimdt and Robinson. So if you look at it that way, the Reds got a future Hall of Famer for an error prone, low average hitting 3B, a bull pen guy, and a question mark.

Sure, Stewart may end up being the next John Smoltz, but he could easily go and blow out his arm next year or next week, or even end up being somewhat mediocre in the majors.

In Rolen, we got a proven commidity. Sure, he's dinged and not showroom floor brand new, but he's better on the field and in the clubhouse than any of the 3 we got him for.

I'm a little bummed about Stewart leaving, but I'm glad we have Rolen much more. I remember other forums going ape chit whenever Zach Ward was traded, and look how that turned out. Again, Stewart may end up differently, but I'm very happy with Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo, Volquez, etc that is available and I still like our bullpen options too.

How is Rolen gonna help this team make the playoffs before his contract is up?

We have a year and a half with him, unless you want a 37 year old Scott Rolen. Look, I like the player. Even at his age and with his injury concerns, he's 1000000x the third baseman EE is. But he isn't going to push this team over the hump; his contract only adds to the dead-weight contracts this incompetent front office has strapped themselves in to. Cordero, Arroyo, Harang, Tavares and now Rolen comprise most of the team's payroll. None of those guys would be here, at least for their price, if this FO had any idea what they were doing. But they're here, and we won't be able to afford the SS or LF or another quality starter we need to make a run next year.

So, in essence, you trade your best pitching prospect to insure that you don't finish in last place this year. Awesome.:rolleyes: This isn't a move that a smart franchise would make. It's simply a case of a GM lusting after one of his boys, and doing whatever it takes to get him.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Sad day for the Minor League board.

I am really surprised how many people are fine with this trade on the ORG and Sundeck.

Maybe it's me and I should just give up, but I can't in any way justify this trade. And I had Wood ranked ahead of Stewart.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:44 PM
Sad day for the Minor League board.

I am really surprised how many people are fine with this trade on the ORG and Sundeck.

Maybe it's me and I should just give up, but I can't in any way justify this trade. And I had Wood ranked ahead of Stewart.
Id rank this version of Wood over Stewart. I just dont know if the version of Wood we are having now is as likely to be the wood of the future compared to Stewart of now and of the future.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2009, 03:00 AM
Id rank this version of Wood over Stewart. I just dont know if the version of Wood we are having now is as likely to be the wood of the future compared to Stewart of now and of the future.

Yeah what he said. And what is funny is that listening to Ricciardi (he sounded genuinely giddy as he should be) talk it sounded like that was what was offered and not necc. what was asked for. I bet they asked for Alonso and Walt came back with Stewart. Wow is all I can still think!

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:07 AM
Yeah what he said. And what is funny is that listening to Ricciardi (he sounded genuinely giddy as he should be) talk it sounded like that was what was offered and not necc. what was asked for. I bet they asked for Alonso and Walt came back with Stewart. Wow is all I can still think!

I still cant believe it. The Jays got the best pitching prospect that moved and didnt even have to trade their best pitcher in the process. Crazy.

Verins
08-01-2009, 04:24 AM
Just thinking out loud here. I find it odd that no contenders could put together a deal for arguably the best pitcher in baseball in Roy Halladay because Ricciardi's asking price was too high. Then Walt comes around and deals our best pitching prospect, plus EE and Roenicke. I understand that it's not the same situation but for some reason that sticks in my mind.

Also, in my opinion, the worst part of the whole situation is that Walt made the move because he wanted to bring his boy back, and Cast wanted to sell some tickets and make it look like the Reds are trying to improve to the casual fans. This deal just stinks of making a move for popular opinion and not thinking of the clubs future.

mth123
08-01-2009, 09:16 AM
Just thinking out loud here. I find it odd that no contenders could put together a deal for arguably the best pitcher in baseball in Roy Halladay because Ricciardi's asking price was too high. Then Walt comes around and deals our best pitching prospect, plus EE and Roenicke. I understand that it's not the same situation but for some reason that sticks in my mind.

Also, in my opinion, the worst part of the whole situation is that Walt made the move because he wanted to bring his boy back, and Cast wanted to sell some tickets and make it look like the Reds are trying to improve to the casual fans. This deal just stinks of making a move for popular opinion and not thinking of the clubs future.

Bravo. I see this is just post number three. Feel free to post more.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 11:31 AM
Thats exactly how I feel. The difference between Stewart and Alonso as prospects is incredibly small. The difference is, its much easier to find a solid first baseman on the market than it is a solid starting pitcher. Zach Stewart was too much to give up by himself for Scott Rolen in my opinion.

Spot on, dude. Alonso is skilled and probably redundant. Good pitching is never ever redundant.

Betterread
08-01-2009, 11:35 AM
I'm disappointed in the Reds giving up two ML ready power arms. I was not confident that the Reds development staff could turn Stewart into a quality starting pitching prospect but I loved his stuff and his arm. I was looking forward to seeing if he could progress into a starter and exposing my pessimism. I think he had a very good chance to be a great reliever in the majors in as little as next year. Roenicke had a great power arm and looked promising in Cincinnati.
To me, this trade shows the lack of continuity in the organization's plans. A few years ago our bullpen was awful, with a bunch of soft tossers. So we traded, drafted and developed a nice set of arms - Burton, Massey, Roenicke, Fisher, Stewart, etc. Well I guess our bullpen needs no new power arms, because we traded away arguably our two of our three best fastball arms (Massey's FB is still the best). If injuries strike, where is our depth?
It is tough for a fan following the Reds' minor leagues to understand what the Reds want to do with their player development program.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:12 PM
Yea they just simply traded Stewart way too early. Brutal. Stewarts value wasnt going to go down if he didnt become a starter from the context of this trade. I cant imagine how ticked we are going to be when free agency rolls around and we see some guys signing for less than Rolens contract. Going to bring back some more ills.

redsof72
08-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Couple of thoughts that are not based on fact: It appears, based on WJ's comment that the Reds eventually "gave in" to the Blue Jays on the players involved in the deal that most likely, as had been speculated, the Reds had offered Encarnacion and Alonso and Toronto held out until the last hours for Stewart before the Reds "gave in."

Secondly, this trade makes so little sense from a long-term perspective that I am guessing there was pressure from ownership to improve the club at the big league level now, regardless of the cost. This last 10 game stretch may have cost the Reds Zach Stewart for the next 10 years. I can picture Castellini telling WJ, "I don't care how many minor leaguers you have to give up, just get us a hitter."

One last thing in reference to an earlier post: No comparison at all between Zach Stewart and Travis Wood in terms of their stuff. One has big league all-star stuff, 94-95 with a wicked slider, and the other has fringy major league stuff with an excellent change-up.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 01:36 PM
If the marching orders came from Castellini, a reasonable enough assumption, then he was not lying the other day. We did know the Reds were out of it before he did.

Bakermetrics For Owners: If I hold the paper upside down my team is in second place. Yay!

Matt700wlw
08-01-2009, 01:54 PM
If we didn't love them, we wouldn't care.

I don't care about the opinions on the moves, we all have them, we voice them...I'm just glad there's still a passion for this team. Our loyalty is going to payoff someday...:thumbup:

dougdirt
08-01-2009, 01:56 PM
I can picture Castellini telling WJ, "I don't care how many minor leaguers you have to give up, just get us a hitter."


Unfortunately, I think something just like that happened again. Bob has done it before and he will do it again. The problem is, that kind of stuff doesn't work when you spend $70-75M on payroll. Maybe when you get into the $90M area you can start making decisions like that because its easier to replace talent that way.... but you just can't replace talent when your payroll is as low as it is.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:32 PM
Unfortunately, I think something just like that happened again. Bob has done it before and he will do it again. The problem is, that kind of stuff doesn't work when you spend $70-75M on payroll. Maybe when you get into the $90M area you can start making decisions like that because its easier to replace talent that way.... but you just can't replace talent when your payroll is as low as it is.

Pretty much spot on.

The Yankees can trade Stewarts for Rolens. St. Louis can even get by trading Wallaces for Hollidays. St. Louis doesnt go and blow like 30 million on fringe players though. Combine that with us basically having to fill up a major league roster with the remaining 40 million you really have to be spot on with your talent evaluations. I'm not seeing us going in the right direction.

Stewart has value and if he peaks you should deal him if you think you can get a good deal. The Reds I guess think he's peak, but even as a reliever prospect adding him and Ronicke both to the deal is probably way too much considering how it hand cuffs us in other ways.

I'd be willing to bet if the Reds offered Edwin for Rolen straight up in the winter the Blue Jays would have taken it. We waited and not only because of some numbers I dont think Rolen is going to repeat offensively, we had to pay even more in terms of talent. Just a bad deal all around.

When John Fay is calling the deal a pretty big risk you know its bad.

traderumor
08-02-2009, 11:56 PM
On the first day of class in MLB GM 101 written on the board is "Do not fall in love with prospects." Fans would be wise to do the same.

traderumor
08-02-2009, 11:58 PM
When John Fay is calling the deal a pretty big risk you know its bad.
Maybe Fay doesn't know what he is talking about here, either, but just so happens to agree with you, so you figure even he can see what you do?

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 12:25 AM
On the first day of class in MLB GM 101 written on the board is "Do not fall in love with prospects." Fans would be wise to do the same.

If we would have traded Homer Baily 3 years ago for someone comparable to what Rolen is today I'd guess that we would look back and say that it was a good deal.We might even look back and see a few winning season to.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 12:34 AM
Maybe Fay doesn't know what he is talking about here, either, but just so happens to agree with you, so you figure even he can see what you do?

I said that more in response that he worded it strongly something he never does it seems.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 12:35 AM
If we would have traded Homer Baily 3 years ago for someone comparable to what Rolen is today I'd guess that we would look back and say that it was a good deal.We might even look back and see a few winning season to.

So you are saying Scott Rolen is a 30 game improvement?

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 12:41 AM
So you are saying Scott Rolen is a 30 game improvement?

Actually I was just supporting the idea of not falling in love with prospects.I assume your talking about the playoff comment.In regards to that I'm only saying that we would have been better.Not sure where your getting 30 games better from.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:03 AM
Actually I was just supporting the idea of not falling in love with prospects.I assume your talking about the playoff comment.In regards to that I'm only saying that we would have been better.Not sure where your getting 30 games better from.

If we arent going to the playoffs whats the point of dealing top prospects for players who might help us win 4 extra games? We need these prospects to get us close to playoffs until we get there with prospects and free agents I dont see a point of trading for aging vets.

I think trading for stuff to get us over the top is fine when you are close to getting to the promise land. Scott Rolen isnt the type of player we need to be adding right now, especially for the price more than anything. We should be targeting a little longer term options with our prospects considering our current situation.

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 01:10 AM
If we arent going to the playoffs whats the point of dealing top prospects for players who might help us win 4 extra games? We need these prospects to get us close to playoffs until we get there with prospects and free agents I dont see a point of trading for aging vets.

I think trading for stuff to get us over the top is fine when you are close to getting to the promise land. Scott Rolen isnt the type of player we need to be adding right now, especially for the price more than anything. We should be targeting a little longer term options with our prospects considering our current situation.

We've herd this before.I understand how you feel.But I am curious about what you think of my comment on trading Bailey 3 years ago and how having a legit big league bat in the lineup over that time would have helped opposed to watching Homer struggle the last 3 seasons.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:32 AM
We've herd this before.I understand how you feel.But I am curious about what you think of my comment on trading Bailey 3 years ago and how having a legit big league bat in the lineup over that time would have helped opposed to watching Homer struggle the last 3 seasons.

Because you said you wanted to trade our top prospects for guys like Rolen. I dont have a problem trading our guys but we have to make sure we get the most value out of those guys. Adding Rolen for the sake of just getting Rolen when we arent close the playoffs seems like a waste of talent even if that talent fails. We have time to take these chances.

Trading for long term fixes with our top guys is what we should be doing when we do trade those guys, not for guys that would help us go from barely missing playoffs to playoffs. We did what the Cardinals did with Brett Wallace to get Holliday only problem is we arent where the Cardinals are at the moement. If we were fighting for the division title I could swollow this trade a little easier but I'm just not seeing the point of it right now.

dougdirt
08-03-2009, 01:50 AM
We've herd this before.I understand how you feel.But I am curious about what you think of my comment on trading Bailey 3 years ago and how having a legit big league bat in the lineup over that time would have helped opposed to watching Homer struggle the last 3 seasons.

Unless we traded Homer Bailey for Albert Pujols, nowhere over the last three years was any bat going to give us the extra 10 wins we would have needed to make the playoffs.

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 02:53 AM
Unless we traded Homer Bailey for Albert Pujols, nowhere over the last three years was any bat going to give us the extra 10 wins we would have needed to make the playoffs.

Pujols I agree could have helped but I'm trying to be realistic.What if we would have included him in a trade for a older CF like Damon three years ago(trying to think of someone similar to Rolen at his same age 3 years ago).You put him in CF in place of what we've had from then until now and I think you'd be looking at a dramatically different 3 years.I'm not saying that a guy like Damon would have put us over the top but it could have improved us enough to be contending around the deadline one of those years.This could have led to further additions.

I admit that Damon was a better player 3 years ago then what Rolen is today but probably not by too much.I'm just trying to make the point that one guy in the right position can make a big difference.It seems like a long shot right now but Rolen could be that difference next year and Stewart is even more likely to frustrate the people in Toronto that follows prospects just as Bailey has done to us.

TRF
08-03-2009, 10:11 AM
I watched and read all weekend. I avoided the firestorm of comments, tried to distance myself a bit, and form some rational thoughts.

This was without a doubt the dumbest trade deadline deal I have ever seen the Reds make. It trumps "The Trade".

Thing is, it's totally in character for Walt Jocketty. One can look no further than his past trades. he almost never trades for a young player, and almost always targets veterans. Mark Mulder won 22 games as a Cardinal. Dan Haren has won 69 games and counting. Kiko Calero has turned into a solid reliever, stellar in fact this year. Daric Barton may never be more than a bench player, but that's still quite a haul.

Edmonds, Rolen, McGwire, Eckstein, Sanders, Walker, Juan Encarnacion, Kennedy.

Walt Jocketty prefers a veteran team. Plain and simple. You have to an other worldly talent like a Pujols or Rick Ankiel as a pitcher to crack his 25 man roster.

2008 may not have been Dusty's team, but it most certainly wasn't Walt's. I doubt we see anyone other than WT in CF next year, Bruce will be in right, But I think Walt would prefer someone else. I predict Gomes gets a two year deal in the off-season and is the starting LF. Rolen will be extended at least two years, maybe 3. We could see BP shift to SS, but I bet we'll see another vet SS brought in.

Your 2010 Reds... well just look at tonight's lineup and add Bruce in RF. Meanwhile the Reds best prospects will either be traded for more veteran goodness or rot on the vine.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 10:18 AM
I wish they would have went after cliff lee or victor martinez if they were going to trade someone out of the Stewart, Yonder, Frazier group. Thats probably the biggest disappointment for me.

membengal
08-04-2009, 08:16 AM
I watched and read all weekend. I avoided the firestorm of comments, tried to distance myself a bit, and form some rational thoughts.

This was without a doubt the dumbest trade deadline deal I have ever seen the Reds make. It trumps "The Trade".

Thing is, it's totally in character for Walt Jocketty. One can look no further than his past trades. he almost never trades for a young player, and almost always targets veterans. Mark Mulder won 22 games as a Cardinal. Dan Haren has won 69 games and counting. Kiko Calero has turned into a solid reliever, stellar in fact this year. Daric Barton may never be more than a bench player, but that's still quite a haul.

Edmonds, Rolen, McGwire, Eckstein, Sanders, Walker, Juan Encarnacion, Kennedy.

Walt Jocketty prefers a veteran team. Plain and simple. You have to an other worldly talent like a Pujols or Rick Ankiel as a pitcher to crack his 25 man roster.

2008 may not have been Dusty's team, but it most certainly wasn't Walt's. I doubt we see anyone other than WT in CF next year, Bruce will be in right, But I think Walt would prefer someone else. I predict Gomes gets a two year deal in the off-season and is the starting LF. Rolen will be extended at least two years, maybe 3. We could see BP shift to SS, but I bet we'll see another vet SS brought in.

Your 2010 Reds... well just look at tonight's lineup and add Bruce in RF. Meanwhile the Reds best prospects will either be traded for more veteran goodness or rot on the vine.

Also sat out the firestorm.

What TRF said. 100%. The Jocketty "model" is a horrible fit for this organization. And this trade shows why.