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TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 05:55 PM
ORG has this thread...we should too.

Rate the trade. I've cooled off a bit. I wanted Rolen from the beginning but was afraid we might overpay. I still think we did overpay but it's not the colossal fail a EE/Alonso deal would have been. I was just about to the point of giving up on EE, at least as a 3B. I like Stewart and I think I liked Roenicke more than most but, Rolen is still a top-shelf 3B, still should have 2-3 good years left and I'm hoping he can instill a new type of attitude into this team and provide some much-needed veteran leadership. Very excited to have him, just wish we didn't trade those two arms.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 05:55 PM
D

RedLegsToday
07-31-2009, 05:56 PM
F--

ukwazoo
07-31-2009, 05:58 PM
They dumped Encarnacion, who is crap (maybe the worst fielder I've ever seen down at the hot corner for the Reds, doesn't hit in the clutch, VERY bad baserunner). Did they give up some young talent? Maybe. But that is not proven talent. Rolen is. Seems to me, we just upgraded at third base by a ton.

texasdave
07-31-2009, 06:11 PM
Forget Walt "The Joke" Jocketty. I wish to hell he would have stayed asleep. What a moron. Absolute moron. And then they bring up Kip Wells. Kip "I stink to high heavens" Wells. I just threw up "A LOT" in my mouth. Yuck. I no longer worry about going to hell when I die. I am a Reds fan. It may be an upgrade. Oh yeah, I read over in the ORG that we shouldn't because Riciardi never rips off the other team in a trade. Congratulations, JP, you just broke your trade maiden.

Jerome
07-31-2009, 06:26 PM
Say all you want about Rolen being old and overpaid. We needed a good right handed bat and we got one. huge upgrade on both sides of the ball. Calling Jocketty a moron for that is silly.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 06:28 PM
This deal will look even better to me if there are some subsequent moves in this coming off-season, i.e.: the acquisition of a major-league caliber SS and a violent and public jettison of Willy Tavares. We fix those two problems and unload one of Roidhead/Harang and I'm feeling pretty optimistic for 2010.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 06:30 PM
This poll is at a perfect distribution right now...this trade really seems to have split the Sun Deck like a butcher splitting a raw chicken.

Red in Atl
07-31-2009, 06:33 PM
C - I think it was obvious that the Reds were determined to get rid of EE. I really doubt there was much of a market for him. The Reds have overvalued him, and most likely ruined other chances in the past to get ride of him, so that they had to offer a little more to get Toronto to take him off their hands.

I do agree that prospects are prospects, and we will never know their value until proven, though some are obvious over others. So the jury is really out for awhile on this one.

But I do think the Reds desparately needed a veteran in that locker room. And I mean a veteran stud, not JHJ who is only a year younger than Rolen. These kids need a swift kick in the ass by someone besides a manager. Someone who works hard and knows the history of this franchise. We didn't always suck.

I think it's a good step in the right direction. Now if you can trade Harang for a decent SS prospect, sign Scutaro at a FA and let this team grow and heal for the rest of the year, we could be in good shape for 2010.

And here's to Walt pulling some real magic for the first time and landing Halladay or the like in the off season. We need a true TOR guy, not these poseurs we've had.

thorn
07-31-2009, 06:36 PM
I give it a C. The only part that bothers me is Stewart, if he turns out to be a RP I might be Ok with it as we have RP in the minors and can easily get it in the FA market if need be, but if he turns out to be a SP then I might have to downgrade my score.

Jones1
07-31-2009, 06:45 PM
They dumped Encarnacion, who is crap (maybe the worst fielder I've ever seen down at the hot corner for the Reds, doesn't hit in the clutch, VERY bad baserunner). Did they give up some young talent? Maybe. But that is not proven talent. Rolen is. Seems to me, we just upgraded at third base by a ton.

In 2006 and 2007 Edwin was our best hitter with RISP!

Fullboat
07-31-2009, 06:49 PM
D-

We gave up to much.

HalMorrisRules
07-31-2009, 06:56 PM
In 2006 and 2007 Edwin was our best hitter with RISP!

Good for him and his Father! /PeeWee mode off

This year Rolen is outproducing and will continue to outproduce EE and probably will next year.

bebo03
07-31-2009, 06:57 PM
Good trade. We got rid of a cancer in the dugout and not to mention his hot and cold play. We got a proven veteran, a consistent right handed bat and a prennial gold glove canadate. I love it.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:10 PM
So, who did Rolen get traded for?

There's a 600-post thread about it in ORG, but no one's going to sift through 600 posts to figure it out.

There's a 200-post thread about it in Sundeck, but no one's going to sift through 200 posts to figure it out.

texasdave
07-31-2009, 07:10 PM
Rolen for Edwin, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:11 PM
Rolen for Edwin, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

You've got to be kidding me?

Jockety is out of his mind.

texasdave
07-31-2009, 07:12 PM
Does Walt even realize that Volquez hasn't been pitching for the past couple of months and may very well have a broken wing? He might have wanted to hold on to his top minor league starting pitcher, at the very least, one of his top.

texasdave
07-31-2009, 07:13 PM
You've got to be kidding me?

Jockety is out of his mind.

Yes he is. Reading Bakermetrics for GMs sent him right over the edge. Let's hope it's temporary.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 07:15 PM
If they had Roenicke and EE and Rolen, I wouldn't trade Stewart for all three of them.

Walt Jockety is an idiot. Dusty Baker is an idiot. Castellini is an idiot. The REDS' organization is officially in a downward spiral, just like the Major League team.

Utter idiots in the front office.

Everything was going along fine with Krivsky, and then Castellini wants to be the "big man on campus" and hire his buddies Baker and Jockety, so he can look like a big-shot at the Club. He's become Mike Brown, in every way, shape and form. What a dote.

If I had season tickets, I'd sell them and never return.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:10 PM
If the same poll was on the blue Jays site, they would say the same exact thing from their perspective. They say they got a crappy 3B who isn't even better than Bautista, and two bullpen arms. Funny how no one is ever happy.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:15 PM
If the same poll was on the blue Jays site, they would say the same exact thing from their perspective. They say they got a crappy 3B who isn't even better than Bautista, and two bullpen arms. Funny how no one is ever happy.

There are a lot of uninformed people out there. Anyone who's seen Zach Stewart pitch are the only people I care about as far as their opinion about the trade.

If you haven't seen Zach Stewart pitch, I could care less what you think about the trade as your opinion is an incomplete one, at best.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:24 PM
There are a lot of uninformed people out there. Anyone who's seen Zach Stewart pitch are the only people I care about as far as their opinion about the trade.

If you haven't seen Zach Stewart pitch, I could care less what you think about the trade as your opinion is an incomplete one, at best.


Well if thats your attitude, I couldn't care less about your opniion, since you can't get a simple phrase correct. Unless you mean you really do care about my opinion, in that case, thanks I appreciate it. :thumbup:

http://incompetech.com/Images/caring.png

Another case of every fan overvaluing their own prospects, because in fact, every franchise has the next Tim Lincecum on their roster. Reds fans think the Reds got hosed. Blue Jays fans think the Blue Jays got hosed. What else is new.

redsinraleigh
07-31-2009, 08:43 PM
No reason for Stewart to be involved in this trade for an expensive, old, injury-prone 3B

EE + Roenicke I could almost live with, but why get older & more expensive?

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:32 PM
No reason for Stewart to be involved in this trade for an expensive, old, injury-prone 3B

EE + Roenicke I could almost live with, but why get older & more expensive?

From someone who probably has seen Stewart pitch.

Girevik
07-31-2009, 10:50 PM
I went with D. I realize that Rolen was aquired for his locker room presence, but I think the Reds need to be trading FOR guys like Renoke and Stewart, not giving them away.

I'm hoping that Jockerty is smarter than me and this will work out, but I'm not hopefull (about this deal, I'm SURE he's smarter than I am).

BigPoppa
07-31-2009, 11:36 PM
I give it a C. The only part that bothers me is Stewart, if he turns out to be a RP I might be Ok with it as we have RP in the minors and can easily get it in the FA market if need be, but if he turns out to be a SP then I might have to downgrade my score.


C. What he said.

gedred69
07-31-2009, 11:46 PM
They dumped Encarnacion, who is crap (maybe the worst fielder I've ever seen down at the hot corner for the Reds, doesn't hit in the clutch, VERY bad baserunner). Did they give up some young talent? Maybe. But that is not proven talent. Rolen is. Seems to me, we just upgraded at third base by a ton.

Worst at 3rd? You must be too young to remember the last double letter at third base. (I have drawn the comparison several times on this site). DD=EE. Danny Driessen. Yeah, they made the 2nd worst trade in Reds history so DD could move to 1st rather than 3rd, and in the process broke the "Big Red Machine" even though it was purring and hitting max on all 8 cylinders. It's History, you can look it up..............

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:47 PM
Ryan Braun was much much worse than Edwin at 3rd. Then they moved him to Left and now hes untouchable and viewed as a great player.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:51 PM
Ryan Braun was much much worse than Edwin at 3rd. Then they moved him to Left and now hes untouchable and viewed as a great player.

And he was viewed as garbage before. Only now do people think Braun is worth a damn.

And if you think Ryan Braun was "much worse" than Edwin at third, you're lost. The only people who are "much worse" than EE at third are those of us posting on this thread. Braun was actually a better defender. And it's not like EE's and Braun's offensive stats are even close to being comparable.

Your man-love for Stewart has made you temporarily insane, I fear.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:00 AM
Braun was garbage? He won ROY.

His UZR/150 at 3rd was -35. Edwin is -12 for his career. Yea Braun was that much worse.

Braun is better than Edwin. Doesnt mean you should just trade a player because he is bad at 1 position. If they hated Edwin so much they shouldnt have offered him Arbitration then went and tried to find a replacement. Just more terrible money management from the Reds. What else is new.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:57 AM
Ryan Braun is on a different planet offensively than not only EE but 99% of major leaguers. He is the perfect example of how an excellent bat will find its way into a lineup one way or another.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:58 AM
Ryan Braun is on a different planet offensively than not only EE but 99% of major leaguers. He is the perfect example of how an excellent bat will find its way into a lineup one way or another.

No doubt but just because a guy isnt good at one position doesnt mean hes an awful player.

RedsFanIN
08-01-2009, 07:11 AM
I like the trade. They had to do something to stop the bleeding. Plus how many hitters in the reds lineup are hitting over .280, not many. Yes, Rolen may not hit for a lot of power but he hits for average and drives runs in. Plus hitting behind Votto is only going to help his numbers. Yes I would have liked to kept ZS but lets face it, we are not talking about a future CY winner. JR is by no means young, and EE just couldnt get it done in a reds uniform. Plus its not like it is a couple month rental; and dont forget that Toronto is sending over cash to off set Rolen's contract.

MJA
08-01-2009, 07:59 AM
I don't think Rolen was the right player to go after personally, unless the Reds think they will compete in the next 1-2 years. Look at his 2009 BA (.320), its way above any year in recent memory and he is 34, his power has already been sapped and I wonder if his hitting will soon follow suite. His OBP has stayed consistently high, but when will the inevitable breakdown come?

The Reds are betting against father time, and he rarely loses; unless you jack your self up with steroids.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Rolen is an upgrade over Edwin, but he does not come without risks. He could get hurt. That possibility exists. If this was Scott Rolen circa 2003 alright. But he isn't that player anymore. This trade should have been Edwin for Rolen plus cash. That would make it Rolen plus cash for Edwin plus payflex. If the Blue Jays did not want to cough up any cash then we will take a B prospect thank you very much. I think Walt threw in Roenicke and Stewart for no good reason. I hope Dusty "I loves me some veterans" Baker wasn't in the room whispering in his ear. It is the day after and this trade still makes me ill.

Betterread
08-01-2009, 12:27 PM
ML-ready power arms are valuable talent commodities. We gave up two of them for one year of a professional 3B - which is a valuable talent commodity. The Reds haven't had a 3B like Rolen for a long time. If he stays healthym he will help - for one year. Roenicke and Stewart could have held down our bullpen for years - cheaply.
bottom line: The reds upgraded the ML talent for this year in this deal. But they gave up a lot of talent to get it. I think they gave up too much by including two power arms, not just one.

Revering4Blue
08-01-2009, 12:46 PM
The Jays got younger and out from under Scott Rolen's contract by dealing him to Cincinnati for Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Rolen has been having a bounce back season, hitting for an OPS of .846 in 338 at bats, nearly as many as he finished with in each of the past two seasons. But Rolen is 34 and there has to be some factor of sentimentality on the part of Reds' GM Walt Jocketty. The Reds are not in contention this season and would have a more promising chance next season with the players they gave up.

Encarnacion began 2009 miserably and then spent two months on the DL, but he had a .941 OPS in the second half and is just 26.

Roenicke is a nice pickup, even though he is almost 27 and only has 16.1 career big league innings. He's exhibited promising strikeout rates and could still become a dependable bullpen arm.

Stewart was a third rounder last year and has a 1.67 ERA and 7.8 K/9 rate in a total of 91.2 minor league innings in his various stops.

Grade for Jays: A

Grade for Reds: C+

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiretap_archives/16064/20090731/grading_the_deadine_deals/


Let's not kid ourselves..

This was a trade to placate the casual fan, giving them a reason to make the trek to GAB this season. This is the type of deal that could have easily been consumated this offseason, at a much less prohibitive price.

W.J simply bid against himself, much as he did with the signing of W.T.

While I don't view this trade in an entirely negative light, it doesn't reflect the type of proactive thinking this franchise sorely needs from a G.M/Front office.