PDA

View Full Version : Here are some Blue Jays fans reaction ...



LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 07:42 PM
Off of their blogs:

"Ouch. Two unproven minor leaguers- looks like Roenicke/Stewart both were used in closing/bullpen roles from their stats (although Stewart looks like he's started more than Roenicke). I don't know. I hope that JP's done his homework on those two guys, because they are essentially why this deal has been done. I'm not very convinced."

"It seems that both Stewart and Roenicke have been closing at AAA. I suppose both these guys could provide the bullpen some help. I guess I'm just really deflated that we essentially bartered Rolen into bullpen help and a 3B that's batting just above the Mendoza line. Really? "

"This trade looks like a salary dump to me. Rolen is clearly better than EE while those 2 other pitchers are fringy prospects. EE is only going to make 4.75 million next season so the Jays will save money. If it's all about winning in 2010, I don't see how this trade improves the ballclub for next season."

"I'd rather just have received the two arms than Encarnacion, as well. Encarnacion is due $4.75 million next year and I don't think he's worth anything close to that. I'd rather the team have saved that money to prevent other cost-cutting measures or had it to spend on a different third basemen.

Maybe the Reds required us to take the contract back if they were going to take Rolen, but Rolen is worth his contract. Encarnacion is not."
I'm crushed. I love Rolen, I see nothing to like about EE, and I'm troubled at the trade request.

The only potential salvation here is IF Stewart turns out good...
(He's not yet 23 and reached AAA in under 120 professional innings - that shows promise. However, his innings are going to cap off soon (25 or so more at the outside) which means he'll be held to 150 or so next year so he has to be handled delicately. Still, His rations look damned good to me)

...and if somehow Butter can teach EE how to be a decent defender. and the Three headed monster can get him back to pushing 30 homers like he did in 2008 Though something tells me that's going to have a pretty sever home split)

On the whole, I find it pretty damned depressing."

Looks like no one is EVER happy. :laugh:

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:43 PM
Nobody cares what Blue Jays fans think.

How many Blue Jays fans have seen Zach Stewart pitch in person? Find that group of people and I'd like to hear what they have to say.

mroby85
07-31-2009, 08:52 PM
Nobody cares what Blue Jays fans think.

How many Blue Jays fans have seen Zach Stewart pitch in person? Find that group of people and I'd like to hear what they have to say.

I cared, and found this to be an interesting post. Not from the standpoint of what they think of the prospects, but from the standpoint of how they value Scott Rolen. Says good things to me when they've seen him play, and hate to see him go.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 10:04 PM
mroby85, next season Scott Rolen will be as bad Offensively since his rookie season.

But, who cares?! The REDS won't be going to any World Series any of the next 10 years, as this franchise is heading backwards ever since the day that Castellini decided it was more important to hire his buddies instead of doing what's good for the franchise, which he so valiantly did so well with the hirings of O'Brien and Krivsky.

redlegs2370
07-31-2009, 10:18 PM
mroby85, next season Scott Rolen will be as bad Offensively since his rookie season.

But, who cares?! The REDS won't be going to any World Series any of the next 10 years, as this franchise is heading backwards ever since the day that Castellini decided it was more important to hire his buddies instead of doing what's good for the franchise, which he so valiantly did so well with the hirings of O'Brien and Krivsky.

Do you mean the firings of O'Brien and Krivsky? Is that the same Krivsky who drafted Stubbs over Lincecum? Jocketty have proven with two different clubs (A's & Cards) hat he can build a World Series caliber team. I think it is a great move to bring Rolen to the Reds. Rolen is a winner who will give the Reds much needed leadership in the clubhouse. I read a lot of post on here about frustration of players not being able to drive runners in, base running blunders, or poor defense. I think Rolen will do a lot of little things that will help this team. Too many people go by statistics when many times it is the things not on a stat sheet that can determine a win or loss.

markymark69
07-31-2009, 10:40 PM
mroby85, next season Scott Rolen will be as bad Offensively since his rookie season.

But, who cares?! The REDS won't be going to any World Series any of the next 10 years, as this franchise is heading backwards ever since the day that Castellini decided it was more important to hire his buddies instead of doing what's good for the franchise, which he so valiantly did so well with the hirings of O'Brien and Krivsky.

Since you know all this --- tell me what the lottery numbers are, who will be the next president and when the Lord is coming back.

People stop being so freaking negative. You wanted Walt to make some moves and he made some. Let's see what happens.

mac624
07-31-2009, 10:45 PM
I mean, you go to the Jays because they want to win, and they trade a future hall of famer for EdE (error prone, can't hit above .250), a middle bullpen guy, and a question mark that is completely unknown, but could be good. If this trade was made in reverse, poster would be going ape chit in anger. Stewart's future will ultimately judge this deal, but for the Reds, for now, it's a lopsided deal.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:52 PM
I mean, you go to the Jays because they want to win, and they trade a future hall of famer for EdE (error prone, can't hit above .250), a middle bullpen guy, and a question mark that is completely unknown, but could be good. If this trade was made in reverse, poster would be going ape chit in anger. Stewart's future will ultimately judge this deal, but for the Reds, for now, it's a lopsided deal.

If only we could have traded Griffey for a return like what the Jays got for Rolen.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:53 PM
I mean, you go to the Jays because they want to win, and they trade a future hall of famer for EdE (error prone, can't hit above .250), a middle bullpen guy, and a question mark that is completely unknown, but could be good. If this trade was made in reverse, poster would be going ape chit in anger. Stewart's future will ultimately judge this deal, but for the Reds, for now, it's a lopsided deal.

Key word being for now. Yes it is for now. But when Stewart turns out to be Brandon Webb, it won't be. But I'm glad Edwin is gone. Just gave up too much for Rolen. Should have been Edwin, Roenicke and another lower level prospect. Not Stewart.

gedred69
07-31-2009, 11:37 PM
Key word being for now. Yes it is for now. But when Stewart turns out to be Brandon Webb, it won't be. But I'm glad Edwin is gone. Just gave up too much for Rolen. Should have been Edwin, Roenicke and another lower level prospect. Not Stewart.

I agree on this trade except for the inclusion of Stewart. He rocketed through the system for a good reason. A more "maybe" guy like Smith would have me all smiley);) And I set my sights for the future on Smith at the start of the season.

bgwilly31
08-01-2009, 10:45 AM
If only we could have traded Griffey for a return like what the Jays got for Rolen.



hahaha right because they are the same caliper players.

Was griffey batting 320>? Was griffey still one of the best in ML at his position>?

No.... and far from it.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2009, 10:53 AM
Nobody cares what Blue Jays fans think.

How many Blue Jays fans have seen Zach Stewart pitch in person? Find that group of people and I'd like to hear what they have to say.

I've heard that people who have seen Zach Stewart pitch, IN PERSON, are the same people who can see Jesus Christ in grilled cheese sandwiches. Take the clothes that you were wearing on that momentous occasion and sell them on e-bay. Your troubles are over, my friend.

redlegs2370
08-01-2009, 10:59 AM
If only we could have traded Griffey for a return like what the Jays got for Rolen.
I think Nick Masset and his 2.40 era (in 39 games) is a pretty good return for a 39 year old Griffey. Considering last year the Reds major weakness was the bullpen.

sivman17
08-01-2009, 11:00 AM
I think Nick Masset and his 2.40 era (in 39 games) is a pretty good return for a 39 year old Griffey. Considering last year the Reds major weakness was the bullpen.

i was thinking the same thing. danny richar is pretty worthless, but masset is a great pitcher

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:06 PM
hahaha right because they are the same caliper players.

Was griffey batting 320>? Was griffey still one of the best in ML at his position>?

No.... and far from it.

At the age of 37 he certainly was comparable. Both were still good hitters, both were having trouble playing over 100 games. Both had 1 year left on their deals.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 12:09 PM
Here are some Reds fans reactions......:rolleyes::thumbdown:bang::cry::hel p::bash::doh::explode::shocked::scared::pray::owne d::censored::drink::(:angry::all_cohol:nono::barf: :runawaycr

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:26 PM
Hes baseball Prospectus take on the deal. They must be stupid because they are pretty firmly on my side of the deal. Hell they even use some of the same terms I have been using.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1357


August 1, 2009, 10:18 AM ET
The Worst Deadline Deal

by Rob McQuown

The Cincinnati Reds traded Edwin Encarnacion and 2 prospects to the Toronto Blue Jays for Scott Rolen.

I could probably end the post right there, and 99% of readers would understand and agree that this was not good business for the Cincinnati ballclub. Rolen’s having a good year, but …

a) Rolen has averaged just 106 games the past 4 seasons.
b) Rolen’s once-intimidating power has been largely extinguished by his injuries (27 HR in 07-09, just over 300 games).
c) Rolen’s BABIP this year is .347, against a career mark of .314, helping him get a career-high .320 AVG.
d) The Reds are no longer competing (realistically) for the playoffs in 2009.
e) Rolen will be 35 in 2010.
f) Rolen is due $15mil in 2010, plus the remainder of the 2009 $11mil salary. The Reds aren’t on the hook for all this money. St. Louis is reportedly still responsible for the $4mil bonus in 2010, and “undisclosed” cash went from Toronto to Cincy in the trade.

So, the first question is whether Rolen is worth the salary. The Reds seem likely to be on the hook for about $10mil for his 2010 season, plus his “getting acclimated” time in 2009. That hardly seems like a lot of money for a good third-baseman. What’s to like about Scott Rolen?

1) Rolen’s +/- scores at Bill James Online have all been +10 runs saved per season going back to 2004 (compared to an “average” MLB 3bman). Healthy in 2009, he’s on pace for another +20 season, the 3rd-best pace among all 3bmen. So, whatever impact the injury had on his bat, he’s still a force on defense.
2) Rolen’s top 3 PECOTA matches entering 2009 were: Lowell, Ripken, and Matt Williams. It seems safe to assume that his power isn’t going to miraculously return to the levels these guys sustained in their mid-30’s, but that’s some good company.
3) Rolen’s mid-season PECOTA update is a .296/.362/.495 batting line.
4) The NL has been playing weaker in recent years, in case you haven’t heard. :> There are examples and counterexamples, but all things the same, this should result in a slight “bump” to Rolen’s numbers.
5) Cincy’s park should help his power, what’s left of it.

It seems pretty safe at this point to assume that a team would happily pay Scott Rolen $10mil for a 1-year deal this offseason, given the opportunity. It’s a good contract, even with the expectations of missed playing time. Obviously, we don’t yet know the exact details, but +/- 10% shouldn’t change the fact that Rolen should be a good-value player for Cincy in 2010.
The cost to the Reds?

The appropriately initialed “E.E.”, Edwin Encarnacion, is - appropriately enough - an enigma. His fielding stats are as the negative of Rolen’s - consistently awful! He’s ranked 30th or worse in terms of extra runs allowed every full season he’s played, and is 30th again this year… with just 362.1 innings played! And +/- is a quantity stat, not a rate stat, so his current ratio of runs cost per innings afield is beyond the pale. Observers of him over time have to be perplexed, as he always showed the skill set and athletic ability indicative of at least average defensive play. But sometimes players just never get it.

The Jays have “Older”-bay at first base now, and he can’t hit lefties, and with Lind and Snider in the fold, his lefty bat isn’t as crucial to keep in the lineup… maybe EE moves to first base? Encarnacion seems like a talented hitter. He was a hot prospect, and has shown glimpses of an ability to hit for power, in between his injuries and fielding woes. His 75th Percentile PECOTA showed a .304 EqA before this year. If one’s to assume that he’ll be round .300 1 time in 3 (his 60th percentile was a still-robust .295), the Jays could have a .300 EqA hitter every third year at first base. Without a lot of additional optimism, it seems plausible that Encarnacion could also exceed those projections a little, and his fielding at the less-demanding position would become at least “average” with time.

Like Rolen, Encarnacion is signed through 2010. But, as expected, the salary is a lot more palatable to the Wells-suppressed Blue Jays budget. He’s making $2mil this year, and just $4.75mil in 2010. He appears to be on track to have little enough service time entering 2011 to allow the Jays one year of arbitration before he can opt for free agency in 2012. But by the last year of arbitration eligibility, that would probably only matter significantly if he was an MVP candidate in 2010.

So far, so good. The Reds got the better, more expensive player. He fits Dusty’s long-held belief in the importance of defense (unless a guy hits like Bonds, of course), which Jocketty also seemed to respect in St. Louis. The Jays got a cheaper player with “upside”.

Collective shrug.

Here’s the kicker: “and 2 prospects”. I’ll be the first to accept that minor-league relief stats have such a tiny correlation to MLB success as to need a microscope to find. And for the Reds to trade away three of their Louisville bullpen arms for a promising power bat (Wlad Balentien - is Jim Bowden secretly back with this organization?!) and an upgrade at a problem position seems to make sense. But these two guys going to Toronto are quite promising:

- Roenicke will be 27 in 3 days. He’s barely scratched the MLB roster. But he’s an uber-athletic player (walked on to the UCBL baseball team while there on a football scholarship), who throws as hard as you could want for a short reliever. Don’t be at all surprised to see him closing in Toronto in 2010, after being indoctrinated in their “Magical Pitching Program” (how do they do it?!) Stats-wise or scouting report-wise, there’s almost nothing to dislike about this guy’s chances. At this level of development, it’s not even fair to continue to call him a “prospect” - he’s a solid bullpen arm who still has more upside.

- Zach Stewart, just 22 and recently promoted to AAA, all accounts are that he’s a long-term reliever with 2 plus pitches (fastball/slider). But we’ve seen how the pitching wizards in the Toronto organization have converted relievers to starting; Stewart has always been a SP, so it seems likely they’ll try to keep him there. He can throw as hard as 96 MPH, with “good sink on his fastball” (BA Prospect Book), and while he’s likely not MLB-ready yet, this is exactly the sort of guy who has the chance to be a front-of-rotation starter, and a strong likelihood to be at least a decent 4th-starter or setup reliever.

We’ve all seen herds of pitching prospects fail. There’s a real chance that the Reds will look back and wonder why anyone doubted them, getting an upgrade at 3b for a few dollars more. But there’s also an outside chance that this will be looked upon as a disaster of Liriano/Nathan proportions. The final outcome is highly likely to be somewhere between, obviously. But with the current inflated market value of prospects - especially pitching prospects, who are always somewhat dicey - GM Walt Jocketty certainly undersold his assets. Badly.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 12:57 PM
It was quite possibly the worst deadline trade no doubt about it. It could turn out to be horrible for the hometown heroes. Walt also didn't create a lick of payflex. None. Throw in the cool 10 mill that Rolen will be pulling down in 2010 and you can scratch any and all bigtime and mediumtime free agent acquisitions this off-season. "Jokes" rhymes with chokes and that is exactly what Jocketty did. At the very most he should have made a straight Edwin for Rolen deal. But, no. Infatuation caused Walt to keep adding more and more to the pile.

On a completely unrelated note, I always wanted to call Encarnacion - Eddie Error.

Newman4
08-01-2009, 01:18 PM
It was quite possibly the worst deadline trade no doubt about it. It could turn out to be horrible for the hometown heroes. Walt also didn't create a lick of payflex. None. Throw in the cool 10 mill that Rolen will be pulling down in 2010 and you can scratch any and all bigtime and mediumtime free agent acquisitions this off-season. "Jokes" rhymes with chokes and that is exactly what Jocketty did. At the very most he should have made a straight Edwin for Rolen deal. But, no. Infatuation caused Walt to keep adding more and more to the pile.

Agreed. I would have liked to have seen more JHJ deals for Arroyo and Harang and Weathers. Jocketty and Castellini pulled the Rolen deal to sell more tickets to fans believing in the BS.

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 01:17 PM
mroby85, next season Scott Rolen will be as bad Offensively since his rookie season.

But, who cares?! The REDS won't be going to any World Series any of the next 10 years, as this franchise is heading backwards ever since the day that Castellini decided it was more important to hire his buddies instead of doing what's good for the franchise, which he so valiantly did so well with the hirings of O'Brien and Krivsky.

Damnit man, you just ruined the whole next season, i hadnt watched it yet, thanks for the spoiler, did you bootleg it to see how he does next year already?

mroby85
08-03-2009, 02:46 PM
At the age of 37 he certainly was comparable. Both were still good hitters, both were having trouble playing over 100 games. Both had 1 year left on their deals.

This is a ridiculous comment. Griffey was 37, Rolen is 34. Rolen still plays GG defense, and Junior was a liability in the field due to his leg injuries. Rolen is hitting .320, and Junior was having trouble hitting .250! Not very comparable at all in my opinion. We also got to dump Edwins salary, I'm sure we had to throw something in to get them to take on what is probably a remaining 5 million, and they also picked up some of Scott Rolens contract according to Miller in the GM chat today.