PDA

View Full Version : I hope the local talk shows are lit up....



Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:13 PM
I hope Walt Jockety is buried alive on the local talk shows until he and Baker are fired. And if he isn't then the locals deserve everything they get.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:14 PM
They should be on the hot seat for the performance this season, not for this trade.

gilpdawg
07-31-2009, 08:21 PM
If the talk show callers hate the deal, then it's likely a good one. And vice versa.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:24 PM
They should be on the hot seat for the performance this season, not for this trade.

I care about the organization as a whole. I could care less about one particular season over another.

The goal for a market the size of Cincinnati is to win a World Series without sacrificing the future. If you're "very" close one particular season, you can go for it at that time, if the price isn't too high.

Because the REDS can NEVER EVER have an 8-man lineup equal to the Cubs or the Cardinals or the Phillies or the Dodgers or the Mets becuase of economics, the REDS have only one formula available that can win for them the World Series.

The Formula:

1. They must have during one particular year 1, and they only need 1, pitcher who is among the 6 best pitchers in the Majors that particular season.

2. They must have an excellent bullpen.

3. They must have great defense.

4. They must have a Manager that understands Lineup Construction 101.

5. They must have clutch hitting.

That formula won it for Minnesota twice, it won it for the REDS in 1990. It was on it's way to win it for the REDS in 2011.

This trade doesn't fit any of those scenarios because Rolen won't be a RED in 2011 when they would have had a chance to succeed. It also sabotages their future losing a pitcher in Stewart that showed potential to be top-of-the-rotation pitching or, at the very worse, part of an excellent bullpen.

At any time with any franchise, you can never make flat-out stupid trades. (For anyone who doesn't think this is a stupid trade, put your name down here please so you can be reminded three, four, five, six, and seven years from now how wrong you were...though it's not your fault, you just haven't seen Stewart pitched, so you have no knowledge about him whatsoever.)

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:28 PM
If the talk show callers hate the deal, then it's likely a good one. And vice versa. I understand what you're saying there, but this trade was so stupid (it stinks rancidly of collusion or under-the-table payments from one owner to another), that those who DO UNDERSTAND how stupid it is, will get on the phone and call in.

Never thought you'd have to be ashamed to be a REDS' fan, but today you definitely do.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 08:31 PM
Get back to me in two years when he's the next Tim Lincecum, feel free to put my name down. Of course, we'll take your gold word for it the guy is the next best pitcher in MLB, because you saw him pitch.

I'm tired of our lineup being filled with Triple A fill-ins, preseason minor league contract signees, and untradable dead weight like Taveras and Gonzalez. It's nice to have someone in the lineup, NOW, who is actually a legitimate baseball player. No, we won't make the playoffs with him. We're not with the players we traded either. This franchise has such crappy morale, its nice to have a legitimate player in the lineup that will be the second best hitter not named Votto to play, and hopefully a clubhouse presence to raise some morale on this craphole team.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 08:32 PM
No one outside of a handful of us on the board know who Zach Stewart is or care. I'd be surprised if half the talk show host even know what position he played if you asked them.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 08:42 PM
I'm tired of our lineup being filled with Triple A fill-ins, preseason minor league contract signees, and untradable dead weight like Taveras and Gonzalez. It's nice to have someone in the lineup, NOW, who is actually a legitimate baseball player.

....and what's that gonna get you? Another mediocre season....when a Stewart could have been an important piece of several playoff teams from 2011-2021.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:09 PM
Get back to me in two years when he's the next Tim Lincecum, feel free to put my name down. Of course, we'll take your gold word for it the guy is the next best pitcher in MLB, because you saw him pitch.

I'm tired of our lineup being filled with Triple A fill-ins, preseason minor league contract signees, and untradable dead weight like Taveras and Gonzalez. It's nice to have someone in the lineup, NOW, who is actually a legitimate baseball player. No, we won't make the playoffs with him. We're not with the players we traded either. This franchise has such crappy morale, its nice to have a legitimate player in the lineup that will be the second best hitter not named Votto to play, and hopefully a clubhouse presence to raise some morale on this craphole team.


I agree completely with both statements!! We can actually run out solid 3hitters in a row every night. (Granted, I believe in a different order than Baker is going to do with Phillips in the 4 slot). You can put my name down as well IF Stewart turns out to be the next multi-Cy Young winner.
We can only hope that this is the beginning of many moves over the next 7 months before next year's Spring Training.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:15 PM
....and what's that gonna get you? Another mediocre season....when a Stewart could have been an important piece of several playoff teams from 2011-2021.

Or he could burn out and be nothing more than a marginal MLB player, which is what usually happens to most even highly touted prospects. The Pirates trade their main players year after year for prospects, but never seem to get any better. They field teams that look like minor league teams. Just getting some morale in this clubhouse and having a legitimate player in the lineup will help the team get more wins, which I'm all for.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:20 PM
Jay Bruce could bomb. Should we trade him for a 34 year old outfielder with injury problems? This cat and mouse game we are playing is silly.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:27 PM
Jay Bruce could bomb. Should we trade him for a 34 year old outfielder with injury problems? This cat and mouse game we are playing is silly.

Jay Bruce also was a prospect of the year by several publications. If Zach Stewart landed that honor, I would agree.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:29 PM
I agree completely with both statements!! We can actually run out solid 3hitters in a row every night. (Granted, I believe in a different order than Baker is going to do with Phillips in the 4 slot). You can put my name down as well IF Stewart turns out to be the next multi-Cy Young winner.
We can only hope that this is the beginning of many moves over the next 7 months before next year's Spring Training.

Dusty, you shouldn't be on this website unless you use the name, "Dusty".

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:31 PM
I hope Walt Jockety is buried alive on the local talk shows until he and Baker are fired. And if he isn't then the locals deserve everything they get.


I agree with Baker needing to be fully evaluated by everyone in the FO and really consider making a change...especially, since he stated at the beginning of the year that this was the exact team he has always wanted to coach. I think I would have preferred a team with some offensive potential.

I still think we have to give Jockety a chance because he was handed some large contracts that seem to be untradeable.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:33 PM
Dusty, you shouldn't be on this website unless you use the name, "Dusty".


Wouldn't want to do that too much b/c we all know what can happen if you call a coach by his first name or call him "Coach"...just ask the kid that did that to Bobby Knight at IU ;)

Griffey012
07-31-2009, 09:36 PM
....and what's that gonna get you? Another mediocre season....when a Stewart could have been an important piece of several playoff teams from 2011-2021.

As was Homer Bailey, as way Brenden Claussen, as was Ryan Wagner, as have been a lot of prospects. I agree with someone else on this board who said the pirates trade for prospects every year and don't go anywhere. At some point you need some good veterans. And the amount of upgrade we have at third base is huge, not for this year, but also for next. If we can fill SS we have a very good defensive and offensive infield.

Nah, lets just keep running EdE, Rosales, and other trash out there.

It's amazing, we make a trade to make our team better and everyone flips out. I have never even been a Rolen fan at all, and I like the deal. Mainly cause I am tired of watching lazy trash play 3B for the past few seasons.

First we were going to get to the playoffs when we moved into the new ballpark, then it was something about 2009?, then by the time 2009 got here we were looking for 2010-11, why push it back once again and not make an attempt at it.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:47 PM
I still think we have to give Jockety a chance because he was handed some large contracts that seem to be untradeable.

The state of the REDS......

1. Larkin's contract handcuffs the REDS.

2. Junior's contract handcuffs the REDS, but not as much as Larkin's because Junior's was done first.

3. Lindner proved he could care less, and the franchise had no hope of improvement until he was gone and the big-league club had no hope of winning until Larkin and Junior were gone.

4. Lindner was gone. Hallelujah! The turnaround begins.

5. O'Brien hired. Purging begins throughout organization and a restructure takes place. Hope is on the horizon.

6. O'Brien sets the franchise up for success from 2010 and beyond through trades, drafts, and administration changes.

7. O'Brien fired, and Krivsky hired. The next step occurs with a better evaluator of talent in Krivsky and a more aggressive trader in Krivsky.

8. Krivsky continues what O'Brien started and drafts better and trades better, while still setting the franchise up for continuous playoff runs from 2010 and beyond. Krivsky hires the best AAA manager in baseball in Rick Sweet, setting up a smooth move for Sweet to take over as skipper of the Major League Club. Castellini foolishly ignores this.

9. The organization reaches it's peak under Castellini the day before Baker is hired, as it becomes more important to hire his friends than to do the right thing for this franchise.

10. Baker is hired. The beginning of the end. With Baker came leadoff hitters with OBP's of .300 for two years in a row.

11. Baker's insistance on certain players curtails the development of others and Krivsky's ability to get the right players to continue moving the franchise towards the goal of playoffs in 2010. He continues curtailing Jockety as he takes over for Krivsky.

12. Castellini continues the downward spiral of the REDS with the hiring of another buddy, Jockety, with one of the most under-handed, sleazy moves in REDS' modern front-office history. Sorry, Wayne, Castellini never knew what he had in ya'.

13. Baker continues to run the Major League club, as he dictates who he wants to be in his lineup to Castellini and Castellini makes Walt get them if he wants to keep his cushy job as G.M.

14. Jockety handles the pitching of the organization and the minor leagues pretty well, but the acquisition of better players throughout the organization quickly slows down under Jockety to where there is almost no movement and no improvement at any level other than normal player development.

15. The straw that broke the camels back happens as Jockety, in a seamingly back-door move (any money in a Swiss-Bank account for Castellini via Toronto?), trades the franchises' #1 pitching prospect who's pitched light's out this season and is on the verge of joining the Major League club, for an over-the-hill 3rd Baseman who won't be on the club in 2010 and who must be overpaid in 2010 receiving 1/8th of the team's total payroll. A great pitching prospect and a 26-year old 3rd baseman who's hit .800 OPS over the course of a 4-year Major League career are thrown in for good measure.

16. Time to root for the Twins....a franchise that understands how to win in a medium-market and doesn't have an owner trying to impress his buddies by hiring them and giving them cushy multi-million dollar a year jobs.

Griffey012
07-31-2009, 10:00 PM
Go root for the Twinkies then, nobody is stopping you.

I still don't see the problem with adding a bat into the lineup that will be here next year also. We have gotten to the point where we have enough prospects we can afford to trade some away. That is a place we havent been for a while.

redlegs2370
07-31-2009, 10:29 PM
I am tired of watching lazy trash play 3B for the past few seasons.



This is also why I like the trade. I wouldn't go as far as saying he was trash but didn't play the game with passion. That kind of attitude can rub off in a negative way with other players. A great clubhouse presence is important. Just look at the Yankees. They haven't won a World Series since Paul O'Neil left. Now O'Neil didn't put up the numbers that A'Rod does but O'Neil was a better clubhouse guy than A'Rod.

redlegs2370
07-31-2009, 10:32 PM
The state of the REDS......

7. The next step occurs with a better evaluator of talent in Krivsky and a more aggressive trader in Krivsky.



Your kidding me? Anybody who drafts Drew Stubbs over Tim Lincecum should be fired. If the Reds had Lincecum we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Stubbs will be lucky to be an everyday starter and Lincecum, if healthy, will win a few Cy Young awards.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:33 PM
If Jocketty was running the show he would have traded Lincecum already like he did Haren.

redlegs2370
07-31-2009, 10:36 PM
If Jocketty was running the show he would have traded Lincecum already like he did Haren.

Yes and the Cardinals won the World Series after that, so I guess it didn't hurt the franchise that much.

redlegs2370
07-31-2009, 10:38 PM
If Jocketty was running the show he would have traded Lincecum already like he did Haren.

However the point I was making was in response to Krivsky being a great baseball evaluator.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 10:53 PM
Yes and the Cardinals won the World Series after that, so I guess it didn't hurt the franchise that much.

and Mark Mulder simply sucked so just because they won the world series it should be forgotten? What kind of nonsense is that. Maybe they would have won 2 WS if they didnt make that silly trade.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 10:59 PM
Some of you guys really are losing your minds.

EE has very little value right now. I think I value Roenicke more than almost anyone and I wish we would have kept him but if it was necessary to include him to get Rolen, so be it. Stewart was also a high price to pay but, again, I think Rolen is something this team needs - not only for 2009 (not so much for competing, because this season is toast) but next year and hopefully beyond as well. I think a lot of our young guys can get a lot from exposure to a player like Rolen. And he is still a darned good player. Some of you guys are acting like we just traded for Charlie Hough. Rolen's got a few good years left.

I can understand thinking we gave up too much for him and being upset about that - I would even agree that we did. But the more I think about it, the better I feel. Besides, it's not like any of us should have faith that this org could have successfully developed Stewart anyway..who is the last stud pitcher the Reds have developed?

To claim Jocketty should be fired for this deal is just downright ludicrous. Silly and reactionary. I bet most of the folks who are against it will be fully on board once you realize it's Scott Rolen manning third and not Edwin Encarnacion.

BRM13
08-01-2009, 12:08 AM
If the talk show callers hate the deal, then it's likely a good one. And vice versa.

I'll bet that most talk show callers like the deal. EE was having a bad year at the plate and he's a poor fielder. He's been one of the more unpopular Reds for a long time. Roenicke and Stewart mean nothing to 99% of talk show callers. I predict that this looks like a giant win to the typical talk show caller--we got Rolen for nothing anyone cares about.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:40 AM
No one outside of a handful of us on the board know who Zach Stewart is or care. I'd be surprised if half the talk show host even know what position he played if you asked them.

This is exactly, 100% what I would say, had it not been written here first. :thumbup:

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:54 AM
and Mark Mulder simply sucked so just because they won the world series it should be forgotten? What kind of nonsense is that. Maybe they would have won 2 WS if they didnt make that silly trade.

Banners fly forever. If the Reds could make trades to win the WS in 2010 or 2011 I would take it in a second.

I am also 22 and have no memory of the Reds in the playoffs. Kind of sad, really...:(

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:05 AM
Banners fly forever. If the Reds could make trades to win the WS in 2010 or 2011 I would take it in a second.

I am also 22 and have no memory of the Reds in the playoffs. Kind of sad, really...:(

We arent any closer to the playoffs as we were yesterday. Instead when we dont win in 2010 we will be even farther behind the curve.

This team has holes in it we cant fill with just scott rolen. They couldnt afford to fix those holes in the spring. They certainly cant now that they added payroll already and its not even free agency yet.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:07 AM
We arent any closer to the playoffs as we were yesterday. Instead when we dont win in 2010 we will be even farther behind the curve.

This team has holes in it we cant fill with just scott rolen. They couldnt afford to fix those holes in the spring. They certainly cant now that they added payroll already and its not even free agency yet.

How is the team not better for 2010 with Rolen instead of EE? I didn't see a real indication that Stewart would be a key cog next year. I was under the impression that he would continue to be developed as a starter in order to complete the transition from RP so SP.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:10 AM
How is the team not better for 2010 with Rolen instead of EE? I didn't see a real indication that Stewart would be a key cog next year. I was under the impression that he would continue to be developed as a starter in order to complete the transition from RP so SP.

We are a better team is he stays healthy, but are we a playoff team? Very unlikely. We are still no where near playoff contention.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:12 AM
We are a better team is he stays healthy, but are we a playoff team? Very unlikely. We are still no where near playoff contention.

I don't know that anyone is calling Scott Rolen ca.2009 the missing piece. Baby steps.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:18 AM
I don't know that anyone is calling Scott Rolen ca.2009 the missing piece. Baby steps.

Where are we getting the SS, the LF, the other starting pitchers. All 3 of those are much bigger holes than our 3rd baseman. Instead we got more expensive in a place of less need and its going to block us from improving the places of great need unless we magically find some money.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:19 AM
3b was still a place of need though. And a relatively large one at that.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:34 AM
3b was still a place of need though. And a relatively large one at that.

We upgraded 3rd but we did it at a substantial cost.

Of all the problem areas on this team 3rd was behind starters, SS, LF, and CF. We likely arent going to upgrade any of those other ones now because of what we paid to upgrade the 5th biggest problem on the team.

Talk about a punch in the gut.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:15 PM
Mark Amazon on 700wlw is ripping this apart.

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 04:13 PM
Or he could burn out and be nothing more than a marginal MLB player, which is what usually happens to most even highly touted prospects. The Pirates trade their main players year after year for prospects, but never seem to get any better. They field teams that look like minor league teams. Just getting some morale in this clubhouse and having a legitimate player in the lineup will help the team get more wins, which I'm all for.

And this is why people are starting to compare the Reds to the Pirates.We really shouldn't be following their formula for success.That's what we have been doing for a while and all that it has earned us is the chance to fight it out with them for last place the last 10 years or so.The Rolen move at the very least shows that we are trying to break away from that pattern.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 04:47 PM
And this is why people are starting to compare the Reds to the Pirates.We really shouldn't be following their formula for success.That's what we have been doing for a while and all that it has earned us is the chance to fight it out with them for last place the last 10 years or so.The Rolen move at the very least shows that we are trying to break away from that pattern.

Matt Morris trade lol!

malcontent
08-01-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't know that anyone is calling Scott Rolen ca.2009 the missing piece. Baby steps.

Firing Toothpick would be a big step, in the right direction as well.

BlastFurnace
08-01-2009, 08:32 PM
....and what's that gonna get you? Another mediocre season....when a Stewart could have been an important piece of several playoff teams from 2011-2021.

Playoffs! You want to talk Playoffs!...Playoffs!

lidspinner
08-01-2009, 11:13 PM
Kingspoint......I am with you on Walt and Dusty getting the flame....I think both are a disgrace to this franchise and they are only making us the laughing stock of this league.....You cannot do the stuff they do and keep your job on 90% of the teams in MLB, but for some reason it seems the norm to do it in a nati uni.

I want an explanation from Walt why we took on Rolen's 11 mill contract next year and never even sniffed Cliff Lee?

I want to know why if stubbs and heisy are so "untouchable" then why are they not being called up to get experience on a team that is obviously already thrown in the towell?

Why is Rosales taking AB's and defensive time away from a SS of the future, Chris Valaika....why are we trotting a guy out there everyday that will not, or should not be on this team next year(Agone).....

I want to know why Will T was offered such a big contract when no one wanted him...why did we give him money that could have been bamked to help cover the cost of keeping joey Votto....or could have helped pay Cliff Lee's salary.....

I am demanding to know why mario soto is not on this staff

at this rate joey Votto is bidding his time till he can get as far away from here as possible. ignoring issues as stated above is a sure model way to deter free agents from comming here.

malcontent
08-01-2009, 11:35 PM
I want an explanation from Walt why we took on Rolen's 11 mill contract next year and never even sniffed Cliff Lee?

Good point. That would have been a coup worthy of the smoke Jocketty was blowing regarding Rolen.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 12:04 AM
Not only didnt he sniff Cliff Lee he didnt even sniff Victor Martinez.

We traded 2 ML ready arms, and Edwin for Rolen, and the Indians Justin Masterson and 2 single A pitchers for Martinez.

Talk about a bad allocation of prospects and money.