PDA

View Full Version : Edwin Reaction...



mroby85
07-31-2009, 09:26 PM
They said during the game that Edwin pumped his fist coming out of Dusty's office, smiling, and walked out without talking to the media. I just wanted to say that I hope he knows the feeling is mutual, and he was probably the only thing holding the deal up because no one on either side wanted him.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:30 PM
Hes probably laughing because hes going to better organization. I bet a lot of players would be happy to get out of here.

Kingspoint
07-31-2009, 09:31 PM
Hes probably laughing because hes going to better organization. I bet a lot of players would be happy to get out of here.

Exactly.

mroby85
07-31-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm laughing that he's out of here too. Jerry Hairston was 10x the player Edwin was for us, and he left with class. I hated to see him go.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 09:36 PM
dont get you hatred get in the way of facts

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:46 PM
Yes, he's got a MUCH better chance of competing in the AL East. Instead of a .200 BA in a below average division, he can go get owned in a division with the Yankees, BoSox, and Rays.

MESSMVP
07-31-2009, 09:48 PM
I'd be excited to get out of Dusty Baker's mess of a clubhouse as well...I also wouldn't be too excited to be going to the AL East to hit under .200 because the pitchers are even better there. The one good thing for him is that he will at least have a big league lineup hitting around him, which may put him in better hitting opportunities.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-31-2009, 09:50 PM
I hear the fans behind the Reds dugout are having a vigil tonight. No more free balls thrown into the stands from the 3B side. :laugh:

flash
07-31-2009, 10:54 PM
I don't know how excited I would be if I were Edwin. The Jays have a prospect to take third base over next year. DH is also something they seem to be okay at. Even with his salary Edwin could be sitting on the bench next year.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 10:55 PM
I hear the fans behind the Reds dugout are having a vigil tonight. No more free balls thrown into the stands from the 3B side. :laugh:

Good One!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:02 PM
Hes probably laughing because hes going to better organization. I bet a lot of players would be happy to get out of here.

Yeah...wait until those higher taxes hit his paycheck. He's a bust and I'm glad he's gone.

And I will bet anyone here that the Reds make the playoffs sooner than the Blue Jays.

mrherd05
07-31-2009, 11:04 PM
Many of these comments are why he is excited.

I am embarrassed to be a Reds fan, that you all have caused a great kid to be happy to get away from some of you.

You should be so proud.

And when I say, you, I mean some of you, and Marty B as well.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:04 PM
Yeah...wait until those higher taxes hit his paycheck. He's a bust and I'm glad he's gone.

And I will bet anyone here that the Reds make the playoffs sooner than the Blue Jays.

Blue Jays have a little bit harder road than the Reds considering their competition.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:07 PM
Blue Jays have a little bit harder road than the Reds considering their competition.

So you agree with me.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:08 PM
So you agree with me.

not because the Reds will be better though.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:09 PM
Many of these comments are why he is excited.

I am embarrassed to be a Reds fan, that you all have caused a great kid to be happy to get away from some of you.

You should be so proud.

And when I say, you, I mean some of you, and Marty B as well.

Reds fans are the only ones in baseball who criticize players. EdE did a lot of stuff while he was here to be ashamed of. Fans of the franchise that produced Pete Rose are never going to be overly receptive to that type of ballplayer. And, FWIW, it seems the Jays have already penciled EE in as their DH, which is his only chance to succeed as a major leaguer. Allow me to pump my fist in excitement over his departure.

sammonator
07-31-2009, 11:11 PM
I hope the change of scenery helps Edwin. Just maybe it will.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:11 PM
not because the Reds will be better though.

I said the Reds would make the playoffs before the Jays. And considering they just took on EdE for Rolen, Halladay will leave them next year with the team receiving nothing instead of Ricciardi accepting some reasonable offers for him and the fact that they have millions tied up in the likes of Alex Rios and Vernon Wells, yeah - I'll bet the Reds will also be better.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:17 PM
I said the Reds would make the playoffs before the Jays. And considering they just took on EdE for Rolen, Halladay will leave them next year with the team receiving nothing instead of Ricciardi accepting some reasonable offers for him and the fact that they have millions tied up in the likes of Alex Rios and Vernon Wells, yeah - I'll bet the Reds will also be better.

Blue Jays are better than the Reds right now in a much tougher division with all of their starting pitchers on the DL other than Halladay. That being said I would hope the Reds will make the playoffs before them because the Reds are going against NY, and Boston who have no problems outspending entire divisions almost combined.

kfm
07-31-2009, 11:25 PM
Reds fans are the only ones in baseball who criticize players. EdE did a lot of stuff while he was here to be ashamed of. Fans of the franchise that produced Pete Rose are never going to be overly receptive to that type of ballplayer. And, FWIW, it seems the Jays have already penciled EE in as their DH, which is his only chance to succeed as a major leaguer. Allow me to pump my fist in excitement over his departure.

Can you name the things Edwin did to be ashamed of? I don't want to get into bashing Pete Rose because he was one hell of a player, but Pete has bought far more shame to the Reds and Baseball than Edwin ever could.

mroby85
07-31-2009, 11:25 PM
Blue Jays are better than the Reds right now in a much tougher division with all of their starting pitchers on the DL other than Halladay. That being said I would hope the Reds will make the playoffs before them because the Reds are going against NY, and Boston who have no problems outspending entire divisions almost combined.

so if winning a championship is the ultimate goal, i'd rather play for the reds, and have to beat the yankees or red sox in 1 series.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:27 PM
so if winning a championship is the ultimate goal, i'd rather play for the reds, and have to beat the yankees or red sox in 1 series.

If i had my choice I would rather play for about 28 other teams than the Reds.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:46 PM
Can you name the things Edwin did to be ashamed of? I don't want to get into bashing Pete Rose because he was one hell of a player, but Pete has bought far more shame to the Reds and Baseball than Edwin ever could.

Not touching that one. I couldn't disagree with you more.....not on the EE stuff, but the Pete stuff.

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:47 PM
If i had my choice I would rather play for about 28 other teams than the Reds.

Then maybe you should also root for one of those 28 other teams.

GIDP
07-31-2009, 11:48 PM
Then maybe you should also root for one of those 28 other teams.
it would be nice if I could

TheBigLebowski
07-31-2009, 11:55 PM
it would be nice if I could

It's easy. Find "orioleszone.com," create a "GIDP" username and give 'em hell.

But if you're not willing to do that, buck up and stop saying such ridiculous things. We'll get through this.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:02 AM
It's easy. Find "orioleszone.com," create a "GIDP" username and give 'em hell.

But if you're not willing to do that, buck up and stop saying such ridiculous things. We'll get through this.

Orioles actually get value back when they trade players. I wish the Reds would take a page out of their book.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2009, 12:05 AM
Orioles actually get value back when they trade players. I wish the Reds would take a page out of their book.

How long has it been since the Orioles were good? Come on.

Look, I know you're angry about the deal. You certainly have a right to disagree with it having been made. I hate losing Roenicke and Stewart as well. But for someone who generally jumps on people's (butts) when they're being reactionary or irrational, you're doing a lot of the same tonight. Calm down. Take a break from the board and do something else you enjoy. Come back tomorrow and try to enjoy Scott Rolen at third, because he'll be there regardless of how you feel about it. I bet you'll actually start to like having him there.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:11 AM
How long has it been since the Reds were good?

BTW I dont mind having Rolen. Its not even about Rolen any more. Its about how completely idiotic the Reds are at judging talent or even coaching players. It goes from gonzo, to taveras to now Stewart.

I'm honestly afraid of what they will trade Yonder for and now Frazier. Do they trade Todd Frazier for someone like Jhonny Damon now? Id hate to say yes but it really wouldnt surprise me.

BurgervilleBuck
08-01-2009, 12:48 AM
Can you name the things Edwin did to be ashamed of?
He has 79 fielding errors in six years.

BurgervilleBuck
08-01-2009, 12:48 AM
it would be nice if I could

As John Lennon said, it's easy if you try.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:12 AM
As John Lennon said, it's easy if you try.

No its really not.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:16 AM
Hes probably laughing because hes going to better organization. I bet a lot of players would be happy to get out of here.

Doesn't Toronto have the smallest fan base of any team in Baseball? I think I read that somewhere- a survey that had asked people what team they would most want to root for had them in dead last.

NWOhio14
08-01-2009, 01:17 AM
How good is this Frazier kid? If he is better than Johnny Damon he needs to be in the Big leagues now. Why is he not in the big leagues yet? injury? etc..

I don't follow minor leagues i guess like i should .

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:20 AM
How good is this Frazier kid? If he is better than Johnny Damon he needs to be in the Big leagues now. Why is he not in the big leagues yet? injury? etc..

I don't follow minor leagues i guess like i should .

Why dont you just look him up and read some. His stats pretty much speak for themselves.

NWOhio14
08-01-2009, 01:42 AM
Just looked up Frazier 300 hitter with 12 hr's in AA. 23 years old. Sounds like a decent prospect.

Griffey012
08-01-2009, 01:46 AM
How long has it been since the Reds were good?

BTW I dont mind having Rolen. Its not even about Rolen any more. Its about how completely idiotic the Reds are at judging talent or even coaching players. It goes from gonzo, to taveras to now Stewart.

I'm honestly afraid of what they will trade Yonder for and now Frazier. Do they trade Todd Frazier for someone like Jhonny Damon now? Id hate to say yes but it really wouldnt surprise me.

When was the last time we traded away a "prospect" who really panned out and turned around to bite us in the a$$? Konerko? Maybe? Or was it when we traded Drew Henson back to the Yankees

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:50 AM
When was the last time we traded away a "prospect" who really panned out and turned around to bite us in the a$$? Konerko? Maybe? Or was it when we traded Drew Henson back to the Yankees

We havent had any prospects the level of what we have now, and especially ones at the advanced levels of minors. Every prospect since for ever was a long shot. Dont think just because a guy is a number 1 in a system hes the same number 1 for another team.

I can name a ton of examples about teams trading prospects and getting burned though.

Griffey012
08-01-2009, 01:56 AM
We havent had any prospects the level of what we have now, and especially ones at the advanced levels of minors. Every prospect since for ever was a long shot. Dont think just because a guy is a number 1 in a system hes the same number 1 for another team.

I can name a ton of examples about teams trading prospects and getting burned though.

Which also means we can afford to trade away some prospects here and there. Playing the prospect game is a crap shoot. For everyone you trade away that doesn't pan out for a good player, you trade a good prospect away for a player who turns out to stink.

In the last couple of years there really haven't been the deadline deals involving "Super" prospects who become stars. Like Hanley Ramirez and such. Stewart may become a solid pitcher, but he is not a sure fire all star. We can just have Leake take his spot.

there are also plenty of examples of teams trading for prospects and getting nothing...which this could also be the case

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:00 AM
We cant afford to take away prospects like this. You cant trade young studs for over the hill injury prone guys. Its just a surefire way to murder any progress you make with a farm system. We arent the yankees. We cant afford to dump a ton of prospects. The prospects are our food. We just feasted. We can only hope that in the long run we dont end up starving because of it.

Fullboat
08-01-2009, 02:08 AM
If EE shows improvement in the hitting and fielding dept..........I not only want the Reds coaches fired
but sued for damages as well.

NWOhio14
08-01-2009, 02:11 AM
GIDP, after reading up on the Reds minor league players it sounds like A ball and lower is where the Reds are loaded. Duran etc? Hopefully they pan out soon because i'm tired of watching the AAAA 27-28 year old rookies they have now.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:38 AM
GIDP, after reading up on the Reds minor league players it sounds like A ball and lower is where the Reds are loaded. Duran etc? Hopefully they pan out soon because i'm tired of watching the AAAA 27-28 year old rookies they have now.

We are good in multiple spots. We have some pitching, a lot of infield. A lot of relief, and some guys that are very young and very raw, but with tons of potential. We arent loaded like the Votto, Bruce, Bailey, and Cueto class but we are in a pretty good position with the Yonder, Frazier, Wood, Cozart, Stubbs, and Heisey class thats coming soon as long as we hold on to them. I think Yonder and Frazier (as a 3rd baseman) are above average major leaguers. Wood is a nice middle of the rotation lefty, and Cozart is a GG SS who is progressing with the bat.

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 04:30 AM
not because the Reds will be better though.

The Reds don't have to be better to make the playoffs.:D

jmac
08-01-2009, 08:27 AM
As the one poster said...leaving an organization with class is an excellent way to exit.
I wasnt a big EE fan but wish him well.
As far as Rolen, I think his leadership will help and if more moves are made in the offseason, his bat will help greatly. Guess I am saying this one move doesnt make Reds a contender but hopefully it is a piece to a few more moves to come.

redlegs2370
08-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Hes probably laughing because hes going to better organization. I bet a lot of players would be happy to get out of here.
It is obvious that Scott Rolen wants to be here. As a Reds fan I want players who want to play for the Reds.

redlegs2370
08-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Pete has bought far more shame to the Reds and Baseball than Edwin ever could.

I don't know how much shame Pete brought the Reds, but rather to himself. If I recall he rejuvenated a struggling club, much like the current state of the Reds, in the mid 80's. Those building blocks went on to win the 1990 WS. Not to mention hit number 4,192, the hit streak, part of winning 2 WS titles, and a handful of penates. I don't consider that shame to the Reds or Reds fans but rather fond memories. In my opinion, any shame and embarrassment rests with Pete.

TheBigLebowski
08-01-2009, 10:55 AM
I don't know how much shame Pete brought the Reds, but rather to himself. If I recall he rejuvenated a struggling club, much like the current state of the Reds, in the mid 80's. Those building blocks went on to win the 1990 WS. Not to mention hit number 4,192, the hit streak, part of winning 2 WS titles, and a handful of penates. I don't consider that shame to the Reds or Reds fans but rather fond memories. In my opinion, any shame and embarrassment rests with Pete.

In my very humble opinion, anyone who thinks Pete Rose brought "shame" to the Cincinnati Reds needs to have a psychiatric evaluation performed. Immediately.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 11:02 AM
Many of these comments are why he is excited.

I am embarrassed to be a Reds fan, that you all have caused a great kid to be happy to get away from some of you.

You should be so proud.

And when I say, you, I mean some of you, and Marty B as well.

Please. I doubt if Edwin even reads/read Redszone. If anything written on this message board caused Edwin to be miserable he is in for pretty rough life. I would imagine that Cincinnati is one of the easier places to play.

Slyder
08-01-2009, 11:08 AM
Please. I doubt if Edwin even reads/read Redszone. If anything written on this message board caused Edwin to be miserable he is in for pretty rough life. I would imagine that Cincinnati is one of the easier places to play.

He didnt have to. He hears it all the time probably from Marty on the trips and what not :p:.:D

texasdave
08-01-2009, 11:18 AM
He didnt have to. He hears it all the time probably from Marty on the trips and what not :p:.:D

I don't listen to Marty often enough to know how badly he ragged on Edwin. It is my impression that every Reds manager had issues with Edwin. I suppose each and every one of those managers could have been wrong. Heck, my impression could be wrong. But this leads me to believe that maybe, just maybe Edwin isn't the type of player you want on your team. I fully understand this post is speculative in nature. No, I have not been in the Reds clubhouse. Yes, I do love Skyline Chili and LaRosa's Pizzeria. :)

Carolina Red
08-01-2009, 11:53 AM
I disliked him more than any other player on the team. Good riddance. He reminded me a lot of Felipe Lopez. The Reds have another clone of him (Encarnacion) in AA. Francisco is his name. I've gone to watch them a few times this year and he plays a lazy third base. Won't even dive for balls near him. All the Mudcat fans hate him.

RedsFanWC
08-01-2009, 12:17 PM
We are good in multiple spots. We have some pitching, a lot of infield. A lot of relief, and some guys that are very young and very raw, but with tons of potential. We arent loaded like the Votto, Bruce, Bailey, and Cueto class but we are in a pretty good position with the Yonder, Frazier, Wood, Cozart, Stubbs, and Heisey class thats coming soon as long as we hold on to them. I think Yonder and Frazier (as a 3rd baseman) are above average major leaguers. Wood is a nice middle of the rotation lefty, and Cozart is a GG SS who is progressing with the bat.

You mean you think Yonder and Frazier COULD BE above average major leaguers. And that Wood MIGHT BE a middle of the rotation starter and Cozart MIGHT win a GG at SS someday.

Right now Yonder is hurt and has below average numbers in AA and Frazier is putting up decent numbers at that same level. Wood has had a great season but been injury prone and not thrown a major league pitch. Cozart couldnt hit until this year. The thing with prospects in baseball is that minor league numbers dont always translate into MLB success. Otherwise Brandon Larson would be the Reds all-star 3B and we would have just traded for an all-star LFin Wladimir Balentien.

Could Zach Stewart turn out to be a great major leaguer starter and win 200 games? Sure he could, but he could also be a Bruce Chen or Phil Dumatrait.

If the Reds continually depend only on prospects they will wait forever to compete. You need to use your farm system to both develop players and to add experienced veterans in key spots.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Yea we should dump all those prospects while we can. They will never ammount to anything. Who cares. Trade all our top prospects for as many injury prone 34 year olds you can find. We surely wont regret that. Come on they are just prospects!

Meanwhile everyone else trades their prospects for 28 year old non injury prone prospects who fill places of needs and arent getting paid more than we can afford.

RedsFanWC
08-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Nobody said trade all your prospects, but you cant have a team with just prospects. You need to have some veteran leadership. The 2003 Marlins needed Pudge, the 2008 Rays needed Cliff Floyd, the 2007 Rockies needed Todd Helton. Show me the player on the Reds who fulfills that role. Nobody. Thats why Jocketty made this move so that there will be veterans around to help lead the prospects that make it to the majors.

redlegs2370
08-01-2009, 02:27 PM
In my very humble opinion, anyone who thinks Pete Rose brought "shame" to the Cincinnati Reds needs to have a psychiatric evaluation performed. Immediately.

I don't think Pete brought "shame to the Reds. If you read my quote correctly I said any shame would be what he felt. I was merely responding to another post who thought Pete had brought "shame" to the Reds.

AccordinglyReds
08-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Sad to see Edwin go...

I have no problem with how he reacted. This organization (FO) hasn't really been behind him.

Best of luck in Toronto.

Fon Duc Tow
08-01-2009, 02:40 PM
I can name a ton of examples about teams trading prospects and getting burned though.

I'll bet I can name more that traded prospects and didn't get burned.

:)

Red in Atl
08-01-2009, 04:49 PM
After reading/hearing about EE's reaction to being traded and watching JHJ's reaction, it is very clear who may be missed and who should be looking for the door to hit him in the ass on the way out. All the folks that are getting defensive about Marty or fans getting on Edwin through the years, give me a break and see what's in front of you.

Another spoiled player who is living proof that hard work does matter, because if he would have ever made the effort to get better and grow for the last 4 years, he wouldn't have been ridden out of here on a rail. One guy said he was embarrassed by the hurtful things that have been said about a young guy. Are you kidding?

These guys are in the public eye. We all know what they make and how hard they try. We see it everyday. I've watched EE develop or rather lack development. He never learns, he has that pathetic baby look on his face like he's going to cry and he can't consistently throw a baseball. Isn't that his job. He gets paid $2 million to do it and almost $5 million next year. I ask you sir, what type of job you have that you get paid to suck and then get a double raise to suck next year?

Cincy's an easy place to play. Maybe that's why it's so comfortable here, and why we never get better. EE would have actually started crying by now if he came up in Philly or Boston or Chicago or New York. No here we want to pat his back and say it will all be better once you've grown up a little.

So when I hear that EE pumped his fist as he walked out of Dusty's office and then ignored the media, I say good riddance putz. Have fun riding the bench next year when you get beat out in Spring Training by a guy who really wants to be in MLB.

And to Jerry Hairston Jr. I say good luck, and I hope you get to play in the World Series.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 04:55 PM
Yea we should dump all those prospects while we can. They will never ammount to anything. Who cares. Trade all our top prospects for as many injury prone 34 year olds you can find. We surely wont regret that. Come on they are just prospects!

Meanwhile everyone else trades their prospects for 28 year old non injury prone prospects who fill places of needs and arent getting paid more than we can afford.

It is just as much of a mistake to hold on to all of your prospects like Gollum with the one ring as it is to trade them all away. The key is making the right decisions with them.

Until Stewart or Roenicke has success in MLB as anything other than a bullpen arm (so as a top-tier closer or #4 or better starter) I will not be too upset.

Stormy Weathers
08-01-2009, 05:08 PM
I disliked him more than any other player on the team. Good riddance. He reminded me a lot of Felipe Lopez. The Reds have another clone of him (Encarnacion) in AA. Francisco is his name. I've gone to watch them a few times this year and he plays a lazy third base. Won't even dive for balls near him. All the Mudcat fans hate him.

edwin dove for a quite a few balls in his time at 3B. his glove was good his arm is what the problem was.

Stormy Weathers
08-01-2009, 05:11 PM
Nobody said trade all your prospects, but you cant have a team with just prospects. You need to have some veteran leadership. The 2003 Marlins needed Pudge, the 2008 Rays needed Cliff Floyd, the 2007 Rockies needed Todd Helton. Show me the player on the Reds who fulfills that role. Nobody. Thats why Jocketty made this move so that there will be veterans around to help lead the prospects that make it to the majors.

You also trade for the veteran when your team doesn't suck. The Reds are more then 2 years away and Rolen doesn't have much left in the tank at all.

WeLoveLarkin!!!
08-01-2009, 05:55 PM
Can you name the things Edwin did to be ashamed of? I don't want to get into bashing Pete Rose because he was one hell of a player, but Pete has bought far more shame to the Reds and Baseball than Edwin ever could.

having one good season, being a horrible 3rd baseman, inaccurate throws, inconsistent batting, being an injury prone turd, not caring, being a hot head, coming out of the club house pumping his fist with a little sarcastic smile on his face, actually thinking in his lunatic mind that he'll ever amount to anything in the mlb. pretty much being an a-hole. please don't bring up the rose situation. it just starts a whole new argument nobody wants to get into. i'm with lebowski. i couldn't disagree more, but that's another thread.

kfm
08-01-2009, 10:58 PM
Not touching that one. I couldn't disagree with you more.....not on the EE stuff, but the Pete stuff.

You don't believe that a guy who shoves an umpire and gets suspended for 30 days, bets on baseball and gets suspended for life, lies about betting on baseball to all of us including you for twenty years, goes to prison for tax evasion, brought shame to the reds and baseball? Really? I will not even get into the way he treated his first wife and his son at times. If Pete were an NBA player most would label him a thug, but when you win, play hard and slide head first I guess all is forgiven.

kfm
08-01-2009, 11:13 PM
having one good season, being a horrible 3rd baseman, inaccurate throws, inconsistent batting, being an injury prone turd, not caring, being a hot head, coming out of the club house pumping his fist with a little sarcastic smile on his face, actually thinking in his lunatic mind that he'll ever amount to anything in the mlb. pretty much being an a-hole. please don't bring up the rose situation. it just starts a whole new argument nobody wants to get into. i'm with lebowski. i couldn't disagree more, but that's another thread.

I don't blame him one bit for being happy to get out of here. He has been trashed despite his production and like so many other reds players like Adam Dunn. You are so happy to see him go, but you are angry to find out he is just as happy to leave. How does that make any sense whatsover. Go look at his offensive numbers over the last three years and compare them to every NL third baseman not named David Wright or Chipper Jones. Of course you don't want to do that and even if you do, you will quickly dismiss them as not at all relevant. As far as him not caring, what do you base that on. Its amazing, Aaron Harang is stoic for not showing any emotion when he is good or bad, but when it's a guy you don't like like Edwin it is because he doesn't care. You have no idea whatsoever whether or not he cares, so stop pretending like you do. Why is it that in order for some small minded fans to determine if "certain" players care they have to throw temper tantrums and act like children or get tossed in the first inning of a game to show they care. Edwin is streaky and he should be ashamed for that, half of baseball is streaky. Maybe the reds should be ashamed for rushing a guy who was not ready defensively to majors or for not moving him to the outfield or to first base. I love how a guy who we think is going to be great, and just turns out to be good is trash and a guy we don't expect anything from but turns out to be all right is beloved. If Adam Rosales ever put up the OPS of Edwin he would own this town, but for Edwin that is an embarrasment. Only in Cincinnati are guys like Ryan Freel, Chris Stynes and Adam Rosales loved while guys like Griffey, Dunn and Encarnacion are despised. I wish him all the best and who can blame him for being happy for leaving a team who hasn't won in 9 years, has a manager who can't make out a lineup to save his life, and the same general manager who traded away Dan Haren now trades away cheap young power pitching for a 34 year old with a bad back who has hit how many homeruns this year?

kfm
08-01-2009, 11:37 PM
In my very humble opinion, anyone who thinks Pete Rose brought "shame" to the Cincinnati Reds needs to have a psychiatric evaluation performed. Immediately.

I'll let Johnny Bench know you are scheduling his psychiatric evaluation.

NorrisHopper30
08-01-2009, 11:53 PM
The Reds have a better chance of getting in the playoffs than Toronto does next year. He shouldn't be pumpin' his fist.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 12:23 AM
Orioles actually get value back when they trade players. I wish the Reds would take a page out of their book.

Hows that Hernandez for Freel trade working out for the O's?

GIDP
08-02-2009, 12:31 AM
Hows that Hernandez for Freel trade working out for the O's?

Considering they dumped payroll, added 2 prospects, and got to call up Matt Weitters im guessing they are more than happy with their return.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 12:59 AM
Considering they dumped payroll, added 2 prospects, and got to call up Matt Weitters im guessing they are more than happy with their return.



And for all of their great moves they get to be worse then the Reds.They haven't had a winning season since 1997.Maybe they just have bad luck.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 01:03 AM
they are 1 game worse than the reds, doing it for 13 million cheaper, and in a much tougher division. Its not like we are blowing them away with progress.

I didnt say they were making great moves. They arent making bad ones right now though like adding payroll on a very bad team and trading away their top prospects in the process.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 01:12 AM
Orioles actually get value back when they trade players. I wish the Reds would take a page out of their book.

I guess you didn't say they make great moves exactly.Either way I don't want the Reds taking a page out of any teams book that has only finished better then 4th place once since 97.Good job on that 3rd place finish in 04 O's.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 01:21 AM
I guess you didn't say they make great moves exactly.Either way I don't want the Reds taking a page out of any teams book that has only finished better then 4th place once since 97.Good job on that 3rd place finish in 04 O's.

Reds wouldnt have done any better in that division the last decade either.

I wish they would take a page out of their book. Taking high priced veterans and trading them for low priced talent. Seems like an easy concept.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 01:52 AM
Reds wouldnt have done any better in that division the last decade either.

I wish they would take a page out of their book. Taking high priced veterans and trading them for low priced talent. Seems like an easy concept.

The O's are the Reds AL equivalent.They need to both ignore each other as much as possible and look into how winning franchises do things.Spending some money will usually get you some wins.So the Reds show a sign that this might happen and we all go crazy.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 01:57 AM
The O's are the Reds AL equivalent.They need to both ignore each other as much as possible and look into how winning franchises do things.Spending some money will usually get you some wins.So the Reds show a sign that this might happen and we all go crazy.

We agree spending money helps you win. Reds dont spend money wisely.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 02:09 AM
We agree spending money helps you win. Reds dont spend money wisely.

No doubt.I'd take my chances with no Cordero,Aaroyo and Harang next year if the Reds had about 40 million to spend on free agents.Spent the right way the Reds could be real contenders.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 02:13 AM
No doubt.I'd take my chances with no Cordero,Aaroyo and Harang next year if the Reds had about 40 million to spend on free agents.Spent the right way the Reds could be real contenders.

They now have problems when it comes to trading Cordero. They traded 3 ML bullpen arms in the last week. We have some left in the minors but 2 of those 3 are potential closers. I'm almost afraid to trade Cordero.

Harang and Arroyo need to be traded. I think we might move 1, but still even then we have to sign probably 2 starters considering we would need 1 to replace Volquez now also.

Then we havent even discussed the CF, LF, and SS problems yet. Catcher could be potentially a problem also but its a problem for almost every major league team so I could be ok with going in with Hanigan as our starter.

BLEEDS
08-02-2009, 04:17 AM
they are 1 game worse than the reds, doing it for 13 million cheaper, and in a much tougher division. Its not like we are blowing them away with progress.

I didnt say they were making great moves. They arent making bad ones right now though like adding payroll on a very bad team and trading away their top prospects in the process.

How exactly are Roenicke and Stewart "TOP" prospects? I can name about 10 that are much much better.

You have to give up something to get something.

In the Reds new world of Defense First, this is a great move. Rolen will give us a GG at 3rd base. His hitting won't be any worse, and I'd argue MUCH better through 2010.
From GG to EE is a Long Long Long Way...

We have a great bullpen right now, most of our guys are in the 2.xx ERA's. Roenicke is a great trading chip, that is all.
Stewart may be something, but he's not even in the same universe as Bailey, and not as good as 2-3 other pitching prospects we have.

We gave up FODDER for a UZR increase of somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25, with little, if any, decrease and perhaps an increase at the plate.
He's the ideal #5 hitter for this team.

Yes, we still need a LFer and a SS. We might use our TOP prospects for that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TheBigLebowski
08-02-2009, 10:37 AM
How exactly are Roenicke and Stewart "TOP" prospects? I can name about 10 that are much much better.

You have to give up something to get something.

In the Reds new world of Defense First, this is a great move. Rolen will give us a GG at 3rd base. His hitting won't be any worse, and I'd argue MUCH better through 2010.
From GG to EE is a Long Long Long Way...

We have a great bullpen right now, most of our guys are in the 2.xx ERA's. Roenicke is a great trading chip, that is all.
Stewart may be something, but he's not even in the same universe as Bailey, and not as good as 2-3 other pitching prospects we have.

We gave up FODDER for a UZR increase of somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25, with little, if any, decrease and perhaps an increase at the plate.
He's the ideal #5 hitter for this team.

Yes, we still need a LFer and a SS. We might use our TOP prospects for that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I've been defending this trade like crazy over the past few days and, I certainly agree with the "ya gotta give something to get something" philosophy but, in no universe is Zach Stewart "fodder." He is a top-level pitching prospect and it hurts like hell to lose him. Roenicke is quite good too.

bgwilly31
08-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Harang and Arroyo need to be traded. I think we might move 1, but still even then we have to sign probably 2 starters considering we would need 1 to replace Volquez now also.

.


ya see imo this is the reason the reds have been LOSERS for decades.

Because they can never and will never get a full Team of what it takes , they just trade off any talent they have for cheaper talent that takes a couple years to bloom if they ever do. So basically our only chance of going is a marlins like cinderella story of rookies. which we all know chances of that a million to 1.

Its like a never ending circle. Running the team this way were doomed forever to suck!

Newman4
08-02-2009, 11:24 AM
In the first post, who are "they" in the report on Edwin's reaction?

BLEEDS
08-02-2009, 11:31 AM
In the first post, who are "they" in the report on Edwin's reaction?

GIDP and Hal McCoy.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
08-02-2009, 11:33 AM
ya see imo this is the reason the reds have been LOSERS for decades.

Because they can never and will never get a full Team of what it takes , they just trade off any talent they have for cheaper talent that takes a couple years to bloom if they ever do. So basically our only chance of going is a marlins like cinderella story of rookies. which we all know chances of that a million to 1.

Its like a never ending circle. Running the team this way were doomed forever to suck!

I would much rather the reds get a player like Rolen who is making 11 million then spend a million or two here the way the have been. Look at this past offseason for example...

Lincoln 2yrs 4mil
Taveras 2 yrs 6 mil
Encarnacion 2yrs 7mil
Weathers 3.9 mil
Hairston 1 yr 2 mil
Ramon - added 2 mil

That is 24.9 million committed over 2 years, and 12.1 committed to this year. The problem hampering this team and its payroll has not been contracts like Cordero, Harang, Rolen, etc...its been the money they waste on journeyman veterans and trying to fill holes instead of letting young players play. We had 0 need for lincoln this offseason, could have let dickerson play CF, and had Hanigan catch and that would have saved 6 million of payroll this year and about 7 next year easy.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 12:20 PM
How exactly are Roenicke and Stewart "TOP" prospects? I can name about 10 that are much much better.

You have to give up something to get something.

In the Reds new world of Defense First, this is a great move. Rolen will give us a GG at 3rd base. His hitting won't be any worse, and I'd argue MUCH better through 2010.
From GG to EE is a Long Long Long Way...

We have a great bullpen right now, most of our guys are in the 2.xx ERA's. Roenicke is a great trading chip, that is all.
Stewart may be something, but he's not even in the same universe as Bailey, and not as good as 2-3 other pitching prospects we have.

We gave up FODDER for a UZR increase of somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25, with little, if any, decrease and perhaps an increase at the plate.
He's the ideal #5 hitter for this team.

Yes, we still need a LFer and a SS. We might use our TOP prospects for that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS
Please humor me and name 10 better prospects better than Zach Stewart :laugh:

gilpdawg
08-02-2009, 01:05 PM
You don't believe that a guy who shoves an umpire and gets suspended for 30 days, bets on baseball and gets suspended for life, lies about betting on baseball to all of us including you for twenty years, goes to prison for tax evasion, brought shame to the reds and baseball? Really? I will not even get into the way he treated his first wife and his son at times. If Pete were an NBA player most would label him a thug, but when you win, play hard and slide head first I guess all is forgiven.
:clap:

BLEEDS
08-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Please humor me and name 10 better prospects better than Zach Stewart :laugh:

I'm sure you'll argue, they're all opinions of course. BA and other "prognosticators" may have him in their top 10, but:

Alonso
Heisey
Stubbs
Frazier
Valaika
Francisco
Wood
Soto
Cozart
Fisher

There's 10 off the top of my head.

More, and just pitchers:
Sulbaran
Leake
Thompson
Ramirez
Maloney
Burton
Roenicke
Lotzar
Buck
Manuel (yes we just trade him).

Some of them have tasted the bigs, but they're still prospects.
I lump Stewart in their with this 2nd tier of prospects (although I probably take Leake out of this and put him in the top 10 somewhere, he could start next year for the Reds IMO).

I don't have access to Baseball America to see their opinion.
Many of these guys are or were rated higher than Stewart at one time in the past year.

We have(had for those traded) PLENTY of "live bullpen arm prospects", we dealt from an excess to get a proven veteran.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Yea Stewart is probably a top 10 pitching prospect in baseball. Sorry to inform you. And Stewart wasnt a bullpen arm, He was a starter.

BLEEDS
08-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Well, if you say probably, then it must be 100% confirmed.

He wasn't a starter prior to this year, and he didn't start in Louisville, but according to you he's a starter. ?

He wasn't listed in the top 10 Starting Pitching prospects for the Reds in any discussions I've ever seen prior to this year.

He was an arm.
A good arm.
A Prospect Arm.

Just like about a dozen or so other guys.

Suddenly, because he was traded for a guy you don't like, he's a Top Ten prospect.

I don't buy it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
08-02-2009, 02:23 PM
Well, if you say probably, then it must be 100% confirmed.

He wasn't a starter prior to this year, and he didn't start in Louisville, but according to you he's a starter. ?

He wasn't listed in the top 10 Starting Pitching prospects for the Reds in any discussions I've ever seen prior to this year.

He was an arm.
A good arm.
A Prospect Arm.

Just like about a dozen or so other guys.

Suddenly, because he was traded for a guy you don't like, he's a Top Ten prospect.

I don't buy it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I pay quite a bit of attention to the Reds at all levels, I am a little less familiar with some of the players in the minors because I have less time to spend reading up on every player at every level all the time. The thing with Stewart was I honestly couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever, and I know a lot more than the average fan about our minor league system. If I couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever than the might tell you something, cause I could pretty much tell you plenty about any pitcher the Reds have had crack the bigs such as where they came from, their minor league track record, their stuff, and things like that.

With this being the case I have to agree with Bleeds:

He was an arm.
A good arm.
A prospect arm.

That was it he was a good arm in the system, but just like many other arms who may or may not help the Reds out in a big way.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 02:51 PM
Well, if you say probably, then it must be 100% confirmed.

He wasn't a starter prior to this year, and he didn't start in Louisville, but according to you he's a starter. ?

He wasn't listed in the top 10 Starting Pitching prospects for the Reds in any discussions I've ever seen prior to this year.

He was an arm.
A good arm.
A Prospect Arm.

Just like about a dozen or so other guys.

Suddenly, because he was traded for a guy you don't like, he's a Top Ten prospect.

I don't buy it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

just because you dont understand or follow the minor leagues doesnt make me wrong.

He started this year, he dominated both A ball, and AA ball, then they moved him up to AAA to be a reliever. The move was to limit his innings. He was told that, the reds have said that, and thats what the truth is.

Stewart was drafted in 2008 and threw very minimal innings in 2008. Not many prospects outside of the 1st round are going to be rated high no matter what. I suggest you read up a little more before you take the tone you so often take with people.

JayBruce
08-02-2009, 04:23 PM
I pay quite a bit of attention to the Reds at all levels, I am a little less familiar with some of the players in the minors because I have less time to spend reading up on every player at every level all the time. The thing with Stewart was I honestly couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever, and I know a lot more than the average fan about our minor league system. If I couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever than the might tell you something, cause I could pretty much tell you plenty about any pitcher the Reds have had crack the bigs such as where they came from, their minor league track record, their stuff, and things like that.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 05:15 PM
just because you dont understand or follow the minor leagues doesnt make me wrong.

He started this year, he dominated both A ball, and AA ball, then they moved him up to AAA to be a reliever. The move was to limit his innings. He was told that, the reds have said that, and thats what the truth is.

Stewart was drafted in 2008 and threw very minimal innings in 2008. Not many prospects outside of the 1st round are going to be rated high no matter what. I suggest you read up a little more before you take the tone you so often take with people.

Just a guess here but while Stewart did dominate in AA as a starter he was still moved to a reliever to limit his innings in AAA.I'm not the least bit sure why a team would do this if a player wasn't having any kind of arm problems or unless they just wanted him to be a reliever.Why wouldn't they just say that though. Just maybe the Reds didn't want to expose him in AAA too much because they planed on trading him and knew that his value could only go down if they let him loose against better hitters.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 05:35 PM
Because upping someone pitching load and not limiting innings is a surefire way to get them hurt. Teams have been doing this for years. If they didnt want to expose him to AAA hitting why would they even move him up? It had nothing to do with exposing him to hitters in AAA. It had everything to do with innings.

kfm
08-02-2009, 10:02 PM
Heard a similar discussion on Mike and Mike about Jaba Chamberlain and the need to limit his innings because there is some formula on increasing a guys innings each year. Discussion is whether to put Jaba in the bullpen to limit his innings or do they risk injury and have him continue to start all year. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand.

WeLoveLarkin!!!
08-02-2009, 10:27 PM
I don't blame him one bit for being happy to get out of here. He has been trashed despite his production and like so many other reds players like Adam Dunn. You are so happy to see him go, but you are angry to find out he is just as happy to leave. How does that make any sense whatsover. Go look at his offensive numbers over the last three years and compare them to every NL third baseman not named David Wright or Chipper Jones. Of course you don't want to do that and even if you do, you will quickly dismiss them as not at all relevant. As far as him not caring, what do you base that on. Its amazing, Aaron Harang is stoic for not showing any emotion when he is good or bad, but when it's a guy you don't like like Edwin it is because he doesn't care. You have no idea whatsoever whether or not he cares, so stop pretending like you do. Why is it that in order for some small minded fans to determine if "certain" players care they have to throw temper tantrums and act like children or get tossed in the first inning of a game to show they care. Edwin is streaky and he should be ashamed for that, half of baseball is streaky. Maybe the reds should be ashamed for rushing a guy who was not ready defensively to majors or for not moving him to the outfield or to first base. I love how a guy who we think is going to be great, and just turns out to be good is trash and a guy we don't expect anything from but turns out to be all right is beloved. If Adam Rosales ever put up the OPS of Edwin he would own this town, but for Edwin that is an embarrasment. Only in Cincinnati are guys like Ryan Freel, Chris Stynes and Adam Rosales loved while guys like Griffey, Dunn and Encarnacion are despised. I wish him all the best and who can blame him for being happy for leaving a team who hasn't won in 9 years, has a manager who can't make out a lineup to save his life, and the same general manager who traded away Dan Haren now trades away cheap young power pitching for a 34 year old with a bad back who has hit how many homeruns this year?

listen. if i was in his position, yes i would be happy. but there is a professional way to handle things, and then there is a disrectful way of handling things. if he was to get the news, sit down, and then go into the clubhouse later to celebrate in his head of his new trade that's fine and he should be happy. don't accuse me of being small minded. if you were read my other posts on other threads, i strictly hate when players throw temper tantrums. so the only one that looks small minded is the one who wrote that small minded comment. as far as not caring goes, it's pretty obvious of the fact that he didn't care for THIS TEAM! as he has shown with his pompous actions of celebrating in front of his teammates. Griffey is my all time favorite player so i don't understand accusations like that. You say "streaky", i say inconsistent. His last 3 years? instead of mentioning wright or jones? surely, ryan zimmerman, A-Rod, Akinori Iwamura, Aramiz Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Mark Derosa (who is struggling this season). I don't have a problem with you, nor do i want one. So if i offended you in any way, i apologize. However, coming on here and ranting and personally insulting me for my opinion is a bit too far. You act as if I was calling EdE a terrible person but i wasn't. We'll see what happens in the future, but i don't see any great things with the AL pitching.

On a side note: The only thing that we disagree on is Encarnacion. That's pretty much it. I have read all of your other posts and find that we agree on more than disagree. We want the same thing for this ball club, and that's success. It's frustrating to be a reds fan right now, you know and i know. Sometimes we need to vent and rant. However, try not to insult me personally next time by calling me "small minded". There are many things in this world that I don't care about and let roll off my back. But to have a complete stranger, who doesn't know me, make accusations and insulting my intelligence gets me a little fired up. Otherwise I apologize and hopefully we won't have problems in the future. We want the same thing for this team, but we just have different opinions on how to get there. All the Best! :beerme:

bleedsred
08-03-2009, 12:47 AM
I can't believe the Dusty couldn't "fix" EE....

Plus Plus
08-03-2009, 01:01 AM
Heard a similar discussion on Mike and Mike about Jaba Chamberlain and the need to limit his innings because there is some formula on increasing a guys innings each year. Discussion is whether to put Jaba in the bullpen to limit his innings or do they risk injury and have him continue to start all year. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand.

Joba has also been working for years to increase his number of IP to become a full-time starter iirc. Stewart had what, ~90ip as a starter this year? I don't think it is wise to brand him a starter just yet.

That being said, I think I have made my stance on the deal quite clear since it went down and do not feel the need to rehash that here. :cool:

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 01:02 AM
Heard a similar discussion on Mike and Mike about Jaba Chamberlain and the need to limit his innings because there is some formula on increasing a guys innings each year. Discussion is whether to put Jaba in the bullpen to limit his innings or do they risk injury and have him continue to start all year. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand.

I'm not really new to baseball but I have to admit that I've never herd of taking a starting pitcher that is having a great deal of success in AA and then limiting their innings to the extent that they are only pitching in relief once they are promoted to AAA.I'm not defending my original post about this.I'm only curious why this would be done unless they intend for him to be a reliever.You guys make it sound like they still could have wanted him to be a starter even though this was being done.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:10 AM
The rule of thumb is that the arm needs to be strengthened over time because fatigue and fatigue leads to the pitcher compensating for it and that can lead to arm troubles and things of that sort. Teams bump it 30 innings or so a season. Instead of completely shutting him down they move them to the pen and let them throw an inning every few days. That way they still get into games and they dont have some pitcher just sitting there doing nothing for a month.

Captain Hook
08-03-2009, 01:18 AM
The rule of thumb is that the arm needs to be strengthened over time because fatigue and fatigue leads to the pitcher compensating for it and that can lead to arm troubles and things of that sort. Teams bump it 30 innings or so a season. Instead of completely shutting him down they move them to the pen and let them throw an inning every few days. That way they still get into games and they dont have some pitcher just sitting there doing nothing for a month.

So what your saying is that he has already pitched to many innings this year or close to it and now its time to back him off for the rest of the year.I get that.Thanks.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:49 AM
So what your saying is that he has already pitched to many innings this year or close to it and now its time to back him off for the rest of the year.I get that.Thanks.

Yea hes reached close to the max of what his previous work load probably would allow him to handle. Next year he will be able to go even longer, its just playing it safe and what the statistics say keeps a pitcher healthy while developing them. Teams normally move guys at inning limits to the pen to keep getting them work in or use them with strict pitch counts.

kfm
08-03-2009, 09:50 AM
listen. if i was in his position, yes i would be happy. but there is a professional way to handle things, and then there is a disrectful way of handling things. if he was to get the news, sit down, and then go into the clubhouse later to celebrate in his head of his new trade that's fine and he should be happy. don't accuse me of being small minded. if you were read my other posts on other threads, i strictly hate when players throw temper tantrums. so the only one that looks small minded is the one who wrote that small minded comment. as far as not caring goes, it's pretty obvious of the fact that he didn't care for THIS TEAM! as he has shown with his pompous actions of celebrating in front of his teammates. Griffey is my all time favorite player so i don't understand accusations like that. You say "streaky", i say inconsistent. His last 3 years? instead of mentioning wright or jones? surely, ryan zimmerman, A-Rod, Akinori Iwamura, Aramiz Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Mark Derosa (who is struggling this season). I don't have a problem with you, nor do i want one. So if i offended you in any way, i apologize. However, coming on here and ranting and personally insulting me for my opinion is a bit too far. You act as if I was calling EdE a terrible person but i wasn't. We'll see what happens in the future, but i don't see any great things with the AL pitching.

On a side note: The only thing that we disagree on is Encarnacion. That's pretty much it. I have read all of your other posts and find that we agree on more than disagree. We want the same thing for this ball club, and that's success. It's frustrating to be a reds fan right now, you know and i know. Sometimes we need to vent and rant. However, try not to insult me personally next time by calling me "small minded". There are many things in this world that I don't care about and let roll off my back. But to have a complete stranger, who doesn't know me, make accusations and insulting my intelligence gets me a little fired up. Otherwise I apologize and hopefully we won't have problems in the future. We want the same thing for this team, but we just have different opinions on how to get there. All the Best! :beerme:

I should not have called you closed minded. I have to admit I was and still a bit angry over this trade and let that get the best of me. While I disagree with some of your points, I had no business calling you small minded so I apologize for that. Having said that, you are right I am a complete stranger and I don't know you, but you are a complete stranger to Edwin and don't know him either. None of us know what is in a players heart or mind, and I guess I get a little frustrated when people are convinced they do. Edwin may not care at all or he may care more than any other player but the truth is none of us know. Every manager that has been here has talked about what a hard worker Edwin is. I think he is another player who was rushed to the big leagues, placed under enormous pressure by expectations, and trashed by fans. If the Reds had handled Edwin the way they handled Votto perhaps he would be a better player, and I fear they are doing the same thing with Bruce and did the same thing with Dunn. Numbers don't always tell the story and perhaps this is the reason they have been so slow with Stubbs, Heisey and Frazier. Once again, sorry to go after you, it was out of line.

kfm
08-03-2009, 10:01 AM
Joba has also been working for years to increase his number of IP to become a full-time starter iirc. Stewart had what, ~90ip as a starter this year? I don't think it is wise to brand him a starter just yet.

That being said, I think I have made my stance on the deal quite clear since it went down and do not feel the need to rehash that here. :cool:

It is actually more important for a guy who has traditionally pitched few innings like Stewart. To suddenly have him throw far more innings than he has ever thrown in his life would not be wise and would risk serious injury. Even as a reliever, he should be shut down if he gets to his magic number. Certainly, if the Yankees in the middle of a pennant race are considering limiting one of their starters innings, it should be pretty understandable that the Reds would do the same to a minor leaguer who has relieved since he was in college.

BLEEDS
08-03-2009, 10:08 AM
I pay quite a bit of attention to the Reds at all levels, I am a little less familiar with some of the players in the minors because I have less time to spend reading up on every player at every level all the time. The thing with Stewart was I honestly couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever, and I know a lot more than the average fan about our minor league system. If I couldn't have told you if he was a starter or a reliever than the might tell you something, cause I could pretty much tell you plenty about any pitcher the Reds have had crack the bigs such as where they came from, their minor league track record, their stuff, and things like that.

With this being the case I have to agree with Bleeds:

He was an arm.
A good arm.
A prospect arm.

That was it he was a good arm in the system, but just like many other arms who may or may not help the Reds out in a big way.

You know, if a guy was a "Top Ten" prospect, you think more people might be aware of how great he was, or at least who he was.

I had heard the guys name before, but never mentioned in the top 10 of anything.
I did a quick search of RZ and found this, dated May 2009:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75404&highlight=top+ten+pitching+prospect

He was RARELY even mentioned in the Top 10 Starting Pitching Prospects, let alone Top Ten OVERALL Prospects.

Sure maybe he made a big move this year, but I still say he's lumped into the 2nd Tier, and definitely just outside of the Top Ten of all prospects in the Reds System, IMO.
Some may have had him in their top ten, but it's far from consensus.

Regardless, he's just that, a prospect. You have to give up prospects to get Proven talent.
"Don't fall in love with Prospects" isn't that what they say? We've been talking about the "future" with all of our prospects since we opened GABP. Time to cash in some of those assets for some real talent.

We'll all move on.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-03-2009, 10:13 AM
He wasnt in the top 10 list because he threw 30 innings in 2008 and didnt start any games. No pitchers drafted outside of the 1st round are ever going to make a top 10 list for a lot of people. Especially when no one knows if hes going to be a starter when they made that list either. I dont even know why I try to explain these things to you some times.

BLEEDS
08-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Right, so apparently a lot happens in 3 months. ?

Don't get on your high horse, as you like to claim others do.

You wanted me to "humor you" with a list of 10 prospect better than Stewart, so I did a quick list, then did some further research.

I question how a guy goes from relative obscurity - or at least not on anyone's top 10 list - to suddenly being an overall Top Ten prospect, apparently within 3 months, 7 starts in A and AA, and then 12 relief innings in AAA.

Now you tell me he wasn't a starter prior to this year, he wasn't on a top 10 list, but now after 14 starts, he is a Top Ten prospect, and we should all take it as gospel.

Yea Stewart is probably a top 10 pitching prospect in baseball. Sorry to inform you. And Stewart wasnt a bullpen arm, He was a starter.

Okay, so now who has the "tone" ? :rolleyes:

The BJ's wanted to dump salary. We asked them to take EE and his $4.75M contract back. We had to throw in a prospect or two to get them to agree to it. We traded two "live arms". I can live with that.
Apparently you can't.

We'll agree to disagree, but don't try to tell us he's a top ten prospect in baseball.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-03-2009, 11:48 AM
So you want to agree to disagree as long as I dont try to tell you what we are disagreeing about? What kind of logic is that.

"Hey man you might be right but dont tell me im wrong!"

GIDP
08-03-2009, 11:50 AM
BTW I said pitching prospect not over all prospect.

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 12:32 PM
dont get you hatred get in the way of facts

funny from the most negative opinionated person ever on this board...

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 12:36 PM
I don't know how excited I would be if I were Edwin. The Jays have a prospect to take third base over next year. DH is also something they seem to be okay at. Even with his salary Edwin could be sitting on the bench next year.

That would suck, get paid millions to watch baseball without pressure of performing :)

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 12:45 PM
If i had my choice I would rather play for about 28 other teams than the Reds.

reading your posts on here, I often wish you were a fan of one of those other 28 teams as well.

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 12:59 PM
They now have problems when it comes to trading Cordero. They traded 3 ML bullpen arms in the last week. We have some left in the minors but 2 of those 3 are potential closers. I'm almost afraid to trade Cordero.

Harang and Arroyo need to be traded. I think we might move 1, but still even then we have to sign probably 2 starters considering we would need 1 to replace Volquez now also.

Then we havent even discussed the CF, LF, and SS problems yet. Catcher could be potentially a problem also but its a problem for almost every major league team so I could be ok with going in with Hanigan as our starter.

Holy schnickers, I missed that, who was it???????? I saw the EDE, JHJ, and the 2 prospects, but I never saw a word of us trading any, let alone 3, ML bullpen arms.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:02 PM
Holy schnickers, I missed that, who was it???????? I saw the EDE, JHJ, and the 2 prospects, but I never saw a word of us trading any, let alone 3, ML bullpen arms.

Manuel for Balentien. Manuel might not be a Stewart or Josh R. but he was a cheap middle reliever none the less.

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Manuel for Balentien. Manuel might not be a Stewart or Josh R. but he was a cheap middle reliever none the less.

Yeah, I relaized after I posted that one, not a big loss, who were the other 2 ML BP arms we traded this past week?

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Yeah, I relaized after I posted that one, not a big loss, who were the other 2 ML BP arms we traded this past week?

Stewart and Ronicke?

bounty37h
08-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Stewart and Ronicke?

Oh, you said major leaguers in your post, confused me, cause you followed it up saying still had a few in the minors. I get confused following the twists to make your arguements fit your arguements, even the few I agree with you on.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Oh, you said major leaguers in your post, confused me, cause you followed it up saying still had a few in the minors. I get confused following the twists to make your arguements fit your arguements, even the few I agree with you on.

They traded 3 ML bullpen arms in the last week. We have some left in the minors but 2 of those 3 are potential closers. I'm almost afraid to trade Cordero.

that seems pretty easy to understand to me.

WeLoveLarkin!!!
08-03-2009, 04:02 PM
I should not have called you closed minded. I have to admit I was and still a bit angry over this trade and let that get the best of me. While I disagree with some of your points, I had no business calling you small minded so I apologize for that. Having said that, you are right I am a complete stranger and I don't know you, but you are a complete stranger to Edwin and don't know him either. None of us know what is in a players heart or mind, and I guess I get a little frustrated when people are convinced they do. Edwin may not care at all or he may care more than any other player but the truth is none of us know. Every manager that has been here has talked about what a hard worker Edwin is. I think he is another player who was rushed to the big leagues, placed under enormous pressure by expectations, and trashed by fans. If the Reds had handled Edwin the way they handled Votto perhaps he would be a better player, and I fear they are doing the same thing with Bruce and did the same thing with Dunn. Numbers don't always tell the story and perhaps this is the reason they have been so slow with Stubbs, Heisey and Frazier. Once again, sorry to go after you, it was out of line.

glad we could handle this disagreement. speaks alot of your character to also apologize. so for that i thank you.

gilpdawg
08-03-2009, 04:02 PM
funny from the most negative opinionated person ever on this board...
GIDP and FCB is the same guy? :D

BLEEDS
08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
BTW I said pitching prospect not over all prospect.

That wasn't the original discussion.
You said Roenicke and Stewart were "top prospects".
I said they weren't in the top 10.
You said list me 10 prospects better than Stewart.
I listed 10 prospects (overall), then listed another 10 pitching prospects.
THEN you said he was a top 10 pitching prospect.

But, your point is taken.
You don't like Rolen for those guys.
We get it.

After that it's all semantics.
I'll argue Roenicke and Stewart are good live arms, not top prospects.
You'll say they are top prospects, and Stewart in particular is a top 10 pitching prospect, in baseball. I guess we'll see if you add, for the Reds, above A ball, with less than 15 starts, in his 2nd year of pro ball, etc, etc...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-03-2009, 07:58 PM
That wasn't the original discussion.
You said Roenicke and Stewart were "top prospects".
I said they weren't in the top 10.
You said list me 10 prospects better than Stewart.
I listed 10 prospects (overall), then listed another 10 pitching prospects.
THEN you said he was a top 10 pitching prospect.

But, your point is taken.
You don't like Rolen for those guys.
We get it.

After that it's all semantics.
I'll argue Roenicke and Stewart are good live arms, not top prospects.
You'll say they are top prospects, and Stewart in particular is a top 10 pitching prospect, in baseball. I guess we'll see if you add, for the Reds, above A ball, with less than 15 starts, in his 2nd year of pro ball, etc, etc...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Stewart and Josh are top prospects, FOR US
He is a top 10 pitching prospect in baseball, you could debate that but even if you wouldnt agree he is still in the discussion easily.

You list is terrible and anyone who follows the minor leagues would agree. You want me to give in? Fine the guys we gave up are probably AAAA pitchers and will never have ERAs under 5. How is that? Is that better?

Of course I dont believe that but if it makes you stop responding to me when your views are so short sided I'm happy to say it.

BLEEDS
08-04-2009, 08:21 AM
Stewart and Josh are top prospects, FOR US
He is a top 10 pitching prospect in baseball, you could debate that but even if you wouldnt agree he is still in the discussion easily.


So, a guy who was barely mentioned as a top 10 starting pitching prospect, for the Reds, to start the year, now 3 months later is a Top 10 Pitching Prospect in ALL of baseball?

And I am short-sighted.

Got it.




You list is terrible and anyone who follows the minor leagues would agree.

Well that's quite a statement. Seems like people in this very thread would agree with some of my assessments.
I suppose they don't count as "anyone" in your book.

I suppose I could type something smarmy like "well if it will make you feel better I will concede that Zach Stewart is the greatest pitching prospect that ever lived, he will win 10 Cy Youngs and make the Hall of Fame unanimously on the first ballot, of course I don't believe that but if it will make you stop responding to me..."

Grow up.:laugh:

And if you don't, I'm going to hold my breath until my face turns blue!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

ScottyJ
08-04-2009, 09:46 AM
Sad to see Edwin go...

I have no problem with how he reacted. This organization (FO) hasn't really been behind him.

Best of luck in Toronto.

The organization made him the starting 3rd baseman for 4+ years at age 22. I'm sorry, but that's sounds to me like the organization was squarely behind him. Edwin showed the Reds what he was about by showin little-to-no improvement during the years your supposed to show the biggest improvements.

He reacted like a child and basically gave the ol' FU to his teammates.

If you have no problem with that, maybe you should take a hard look in the mirror....

bounty37h
08-04-2009, 09:58 AM
They traded 3 ML bullpen arms in the last week. We have some left in the minors but 2 of those 3 are potential closers. I'm almost afraid to trade Cordero.

that seems pretty easy to understand to me.

K, I didnt realize that either of those guys were on the ML roster.

ScottyJ
08-04-2009, 10:14 AM
He has been trashed despite his production and like so many other reds players like Adam Dunn.


....and the same general manager who traded away Dan Haren now trades away cheap young power pitching for a 34 year old with a bad back who has hit how many homeruns this year?

Encarnacion's production??!!?? :eek: Are you kidding me???

He's a career .260 hitter!! You know who's about the same age and has a better BA AND Slugging %??? Jorge Cantu....And Mark Reynolds....And Yunel Escobar....And Ryan Zimmerman....And Brendan Harris....And Martin Prado.....so on, and so on.

In every way, Scott Rolen is an upgrade at 3B, injury prone or not.

jfleur87
08-04-2009, 01:04 PM
Not to really butt in on this engaging and delightful thread, but is any of this pointless arguing making those who are upset feel any better? And what about those who are happy with the trade (the few and far between), is it worth it to try and prove a point about 1 player with limited time and success in the majors and another that hasn't even put on a ML uniform. From my limited and general baseball fan point of view. The Reds essentially gave a ML bullpen arm with no track record for a ML 3rd baseman with one. What about Edwin, well, from my years of checking up on this forum, to me I would have thought the general consensus would be good riddance. At least he already has one friend going with him, I'm happy for him, and I'm happy for the Reds, we upgraded a position, and that seems to be not good enough for most.

That's my 2 cents, you may resume the debate