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REDblooded
08-01-2009, 01:44 AM
https://twitter.com/elliottbaseball


1st Reds scout "Wish we hadn't given up Roenicke he has closer's stuff and the makeup for it but he got in the doghouse with us."


2nd Reds scout: "Wish we hadn't given up Stewart, the kid can pitch, he'll be in the big leagues a long, long time."



1st and 2nd Reds scout one time zone apart: "Encarnacion can't play."

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 01:55 AM
Quote 3- the reason Stewart was included in the trade.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 01:57 AM
Quote 3- the reason Stewart was included in the trade.

Then Jocketty needs to be fired. Its like including bruce in a deal because Mike Stanton sucked. If you hated the guy that much you just get rid of him. you dont pay in top prospect talent.

so frustrating.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:00 AM
Then Jocketty needs to be fired. Its like including bruce in a deal because Mike Stanton sucked. If you hated the guy that much you just get rid of him. you dont pay in top prospect talent.

so frustrating.

This is nothing of the sort and you know it. Bruce was a consensus #1 prospect in all of baseball, and Stanton was a middle reliever who would log like 50 innings a year. EE is a wear on young arms with his pathetic defense, and a wear on the casual fan because of his nonchalant attitude and streaky bat.

I understand that you are very upset about the loss of Stewart, but statements like this are irrational.

REDblooded
08-01-2009, 02:01 AM
Seriously though... Does anybody think EE missed his calling as a LF? He'd be a pretty decent bat there, and couldn't kill anybody with his D.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:02 AM
No trading away a stud pitcher because you think edwin sucks is the exact same. How about adding Votto in a deal with Milton to bring in someone. you dont sweaten a deal with a stud just to get rid of someone you dont like. No team in baseball is that stupid.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:03 AM
Seriously though... Does anybody think EE missed his calling as a LF? He'd be a pretty decent bat there, and couldn't kill anybody with his D.

I think he could be a solid 2nd baseman.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:05 AM
No trading away a stud pitcher because you think edwin sucks is the exact same. How about adding Votto in a deal with Milton to bring in someone. you dont sweaten a deal with a stud just to get rid of someone you dont like. No team in baseball is that stupid.

It isn't someone they simply don't like though- it is someone who they seem to view as a detriment to the team.

All that said, the cash that is probably brought in simply by the inclusion of the prospects is nice as well.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:07 AM
Reds are on the hook for 11 million next year no matter how you see it. Thats 11 million they now have completely booked up. If you thought that budget was tight this offseason I cant wait to see the one next year.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 02:08 AM
No trading away a stud pitcher because you think edwin sucks is the exact same. How about adding Votto in a deal with Milton to bring in someone. you dont sweaten a deal with a stud just to get rid of someone you dont like. No team in baseball is that stupid.

You keep making these comparisons, of young major league players, for guys who aren't even in the league any more.

We get it, you don't like the trade. But your comparisons are ridiculous. Scott Rolen is not Mike Stanton or Eric Milton, he's still in the league, and batting .320. Stewart is not Votto or Bruce, he's barely logged innings in Triple A.

If you don't like the trade because of what he might be, thats fine. You don't need to pull out ridiculous comparisons that make zero sense though, it just makes you look silly.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:11 AM
11mm - EE's salary (5.45mm? 4.85mm? I'm not sure and its a bit late to search for the exact figure). I think I saw that it was a raise of about 5mm next year.

There is also a month remaining before the waiver trade deadline and all of the offseason to potentially add payflex, or maybe BobC will win the lottery. I'm not ready to destroy my Reds fanhood that has survived since my birth to age 22 with no recollection of playoffs just because the Reds traded a highly-touted pitching prospect. Frankly, I care about the W-L of the Reds and don't care one bit about the minors past how they will affect that single thing.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:13 AM
Im not comparing Rolen to Stanton. Im comparing Edwin to Stanton. We hated stanton, if we wanted him gone you just dont keep him. You dont try to trade him and sweaten the pot by tossing in a good prospect.

And yes hes in the same class as Votto. He's in the same class as Cueto, and hes in the same class of about every other top pitcher in the minors. Just because you dont view it that way doesnt make it any less true. No one thinks we won this trade outside of people who think Rolen is the Rolen of the phillies and cardinals still.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:15 AM
11mm - EE's salary (5.45mm? 4.85mm? I'm not sure and its a bit late to search for the exact figure). I think I saw that it was a raise of about 5mm next year.

There is also a month remaining before the waiver trade deadline and all of the offseason to potentially add payflex, or maybe BobC will win the lottery. I'm not ready to destroy my Reds fanhood that has survived since my birth to age 22 with no recollection of playoffs just because the Reds traded a highly-touted pitching prospect. Frankly, I care about the W-L of the Reds and don't care one bit about the minors past how they will affect that single thing.
If you didnt care about the minors then Joey Votto and Cueto would have been dealt to Baltimore for Bedard last season. People were screaming to get that deal done. Thank god we didnt.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:21 AM
If you didnt care about the minors then Joey Votto and Cueto would have been dealt to Baltimore for Bedard last season. People were screaming to get that deal done. Thank god we didnt.

I was never sold on Bedard- he has a career defined by one outstanding year and has burned me in fantasy time and time again. That trade never appealed to me, even for a second.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 02:24 AM
Im not comparing Rolen to Stanton. Im comparing Edwin to Stanton. We hated stanton, if we wanted him gone you just dont keep him. You dont try to trade him and sweaten the pot by tossing in a good prospect.

And yes hes in the same class as Votto. He's in the same class as Cueto, and hes in the same class of about every other top pitcher in the minors. Just because you dont view it that way doesnt make it any less true. No one thinks we won this trade outside of people who think Rolen is the Rolen of the phillies and cardinals still.

Just because YOU view it that way, doesn't make it true. I've looked at Baseball America's midseason top 50 prospects, he's not on there. Are they wrong too?

This isn't even about the deal. It's the fact you have to pump him to ridiculous proportions. You really just said he's in the same class as Cueto and Votto when he HAS NOT PLAYED A MLB GAME?? Hell he hasn't even started in TRIPLE A YET. How the hell do you come up with these determinations?

Write it down people. A guy who hasn't started in Triple A is AS GOOD AS VOTTO. :bang:

Man you've really lost it. Take a walk or drive or something man, I've think you let your anger get to you. I can see your point of view on not liking the trade, but you really don't need to use ridiculous exaggeration here on where he's at right now as a player.

What else is he? The next Linecum? No wait. The next Clemens. No he's BETTER than Clemens. In his prime.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:25 AM
I was never sold on Bedard- he has a career defined by one outstanding year and has burned me in fantasy time and time again. That trade never appealed to me, even for a second.

But it did enough to the mariners to trade their Jay Bruce, their Wood, and their Burton.

My point is there is a level you have to value these prospects. One bad deal can really screw you up. Thats why you have to get the most value you can for them while you can. We simply didnt get that value for Stewart today. Regardless of what he does in the future his value as a prospect is high. You have to hope that he gets you more than what he did today. Its a worry for me going forward when I look at this reds management.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:28 AM
Just because YOU view it that way, doesn't make it true. I've looked at Baseball America's midseason top 50 prospects, he's not on there. Are they wrong too?

This isn't even about the deal. It's the fact you have to pump him to ridiculous proportions. you really just said he's in the same class as Cueto and Votto when he HAS NOT PLAYED A MLB GAME?? Hell he hasn't even started in TRIPLE A YET. How the hell do you come up with these determinations?

Write it down people. A guy who hasn't started in Triple A is AS GOOD AS VOTTO. :bang:

Man you've really lost it. Take a walk or drive or something man, I've think you let your anger get to you. I can see your point of view on not liking the trade, but you really don't need to use ridiculous exaggeration here on where he's at right now as a player.

What else is he? The next Linecum? No wait. The next Clemens. No he's BETTER than Clemens. In his prime.
Stewart is on their top 50. I absolutely know that. He was listed in the "the next 25" a few months ago.

Plus Plus
08-01-2009, 02:29 AM
But it did enough to the mariners to trade their Jay Bruce, their Wood, and their Burton.

My point is there is a level you have to value these prospects. One bad deal can really screw you up. Thats why you have to get the most value you can for them while you can. We simply didnt get that value for Stewart today. Regardless of what he does in the future his value as a prospect is high. You have to hope that he gets you more than what he did today. Its a worry for me going forward when I look at this reds management.

A great, levelheaded response and I totally agree. :thumbup: :beerme:

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 02:30 AM
Posted Jul. 9, 2009 10:59 am by J.J. Cooper
Filed under: Prospect Rankings

While subscribers can see a more in-depth look Premium at the top 25 prospects and will get a listing of the organizations who have improved their stock and which teams have slipped, we do want everyone to be able to see the listing of the Top 25 Prospects at the midseason.

So here it is. And let us know what you think of the list by leaving comments.

Top 25 Prospects

1. Jason Heyward, of, Braves
2. Mike Stanton, of, Marlins
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Justin Smoak, 1b, Rangers
5. Madison Bumgarner, lhp, Giants
6. Buster Posey, c, Giants
7. Carlos Santana, c, Indians
8. Chris Tillman, rhp, Orioles
9. Brian Matusz, lhp, Orioles
10. Logan Morrison, 1b, Marlins
11. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
12. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
13. Neftali Feliz, rhp, Rangers
14. Alcides Escobar, ss, Brewers
15. Yonder Alonso, 1b, Reds
16. Wade Davis, rhp, Rays
17. Dominic Brown, of, Phillies
18. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
19. Jason Castro, c, Astros
20. Tim Beckham, ss, Rays
21. Brett Wallace, 3b, Cardinals
22. Matt LaPorta, 1b/of, Indians
23. Michael Taylor, of, Phillies
24. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Phillies
25. Michael Saunders, of, Mariners

The Next 25 (listed alphabetically, if you couldn’t tell before): Tim Alderson, rhp, Giants; Pedro Alvarez, 3b, Pirates; Lars Anderson, 1b, Red Sox; Jake Arrieta, rhp, Orioles; Jhoulys Chacin, rhp, Rockies; Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians; Christian Friedrich, lhp, Rockies; Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays; Aaron Hicks, of, Twins; Brad Holt, rhp, Mets; Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals; Austin Jackson, of, Yankees; Casey Kelly, rhp/ss, Red Sox; Jason Knapp, rhp, Phillies; Mat Latos, rhp, Padres; Jordan Lyles, rhp, Astros; Jennry Mejia, rhp, Mets; Matt Moore, lhp, Rays; Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals; Derek Norris, c, Nationals; Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers; Ben Revere, of, Twins; Esmil Rogers, rhp, Rockies; Josh Vitters, 3b, Cubs; Nick Weglarz, of, Indians.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=5456

EDIT: Apparently he may be in the subscriber version, but not here, for some reason

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:31 AM
Stewart is in the same class of prospect as Votto was and Cueto. He didnt start in AAA because they were limiting his innings. They moved him to AAA so he could face more ML talent out of their bullpen.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:32 AM
Posted Jul. 9, 2009 10:59 am by J.J. Cooper
Filed under: Prospect Rankings

While subscribers can see a more in-depth look Premium at the top 25 prospects and will get a listing of the organizations who have improved their stock and which teams have slipped, we do want everyone to be able to see the listing of the Top 25 Prospects at the midseason.

So here it is. And let us know what you think of the list by leaving comments.

Top 25 Prospects

1. Jason Heyward, of, Braves
2. Mike Stanton, of, Marlins
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Justin Smoak, 1b, Rangers
5. Madison Bumgarner, lhp, Giants
6. Buster Posey, c, Giants
7. Carlos Santana, c, Indians
8. Chris Tillman, rhp, Orioles
9. Brian Matusz, lhp, Orioles
10. Logan Morrison, 1b, Marlins
11. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
12. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
13. Neftali Feliz, rhp, Rangers
14. Alcides Escobar, ss, Brewers
15. Yonder Alonso, 1b, Reds
16. Wade Davis, rhp, Rays
17. Dominic Brown, of, Phillies
18. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
19. Jason Castro, c, Astros
20. Tim Beckham, ss, Rays
21. Brett Wallace, 3b, Cardinals
22. Matt LaPorta, 1b/of, Indians
23. Michael Taylor, of, Phillies
24. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Phillies
25. Michael Saunders, of, Mariners

The Next 25 (listed alphabetically, if you couldn’t tell before): Tim Alderson, rhp, Giants; Pedro Alvarez, 3b, Pirates; Lars Anderson, 1b, Red Sox; Jake Arrieta, rhp, Orioles; Jhoulys Chacin, rhp, Rockies; Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians; Christian Friedrich, lhp, Rockies; Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays; Aaron Hicks, of, Twins; Brad Holt, rhp, Mets; Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals; Austin Jackson, of, Yankees; Casey Kelly, rhp/ss, Red Sox; Jason Knapp, rhp, Phillies; Mat Latos, rhp, Padres; Jordan Lyles, rhp, Astros; Jennry Mejia, rhp, Mets; Matt Moore, lhp, Rays; Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals; Derek Norris, c, Nationals; Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers; Ben Revere, of, Twins; Esmil Rogers, rhp, Rockies; Josh Vitters, 3b, Cubs; Nick Weglarz, of, Indians.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=5456

EDIT: Apparently he may be in the subscriber version, but not here, for some reason

How come Zach Stewart shows up in the subscriber version but not in this list?

1st comment on that page.

Stewart was there.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 02:37 AM
Maybe he was or wasn't, I don't have a subscription. That's not really the point though. I'll play along though and lets say that he is, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't even matter if he was top 25.

The point is how the heck do you say someone who has yet to even START in Triple A is equal to one of the best 1B in MLB????

Plus in the other thread I asked you if you would trade Votto for a similar player, and you said no. I mentioned Kyle Drabek, which everyone has higher than Stewart, and you said you wouldn't do it. But yet, this guy is somehow as good as Votto? Really, you're making no sense here.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 02:45 AM
Im not talkign about Votto now. Im talking about Votto the prospect. The only thing thats changed between then and now is Votto stayed in our system and joined the MLB club.

I wouldnt trade Votto because hes 25 years old and is producing like at an all star level. I dont trade Votto for anyone right now short of Grady Sizemore of Hanley Ramirez. He's cheap, and hes very good. Just like Stewart I wouldnt trade him for anyone unless Im putting him in a deal for another young player. You cant go off trading all these guys for expensive aging vets with injury histories.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 02:54 AM
Votto is one of the lucky few who succeeded. I found this post by someone in the other thread:


1. Homer Bailey, rhp
2. Jay Bruce, of
3. Travis Wood, lhp
4. B.J. Szymanski, of
5. Chris Denorfia, of
6. Rafael Gonzalez, rhp
7. Miguel Perez, c
8. Tyler Pelland, lhp
9. Joey Votto, 1b
10. Travis Chick, rhp


The number 1 and 2 guys were top 5 in all of baseball at one point. Both have struggled mightily since being called up. 4-8 I don't even know where they are anymore, and the #9 guy turned out to be the best so far.

There's a gamble with any prospect. They may or may not turn out to be good, only time will tell. And there's a gamble with trading them, but it goes both ways as well. Maybe the prospect goes on to become good and makes you look stupid, or it may turn out you just traded the prospect as his highest value before the guy was exposed at a higher level. If Stewart turns out like #4-8 here, we didn't lose much of anything.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:02 AM
You are comparing years ago, and the top 3 arent anything to sneeze at.

Cueto isnt even listed does that mean he wasnt a top prospect? No they are just list and some times players go so quickly up the list they dont show up on. Stewart came out of no where because he was viewed as a reliever. They turned him into a starter and that made his value jump way up.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 03:16 AM
You are comparing years ago, and the top 3 arent anything to sneeze at.

Cueto isnt even listed does that mean he wasnt a top prospect? No they are just list and some times players go so quickly up the list they dont show up on. Stewart came out of no where because he was viewed as a reliever. They turned him into a starter and that made his value jump way up.

You just proved my point for me. Things change constantly. So who's to say Stewart after a couple starts in Triple A gets rocked? His value goes down.

This is getting old. There's nothing more to really say about this until time passes to prove who "won" the deal like anything else.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 03:27 AM
Also something to think about, when Rolen is up for free agency, the Reds could get a 1st round comp pick in the draft afterwards.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:28 AM
You just proved my point for me. Things change constantly. So who's to say Stewart after a couple starts in Triple A gets rocked? His value goes down.

This is getting old. There's nothing more to really say about this until time passes to prove who "won" the deal like anything else.

things change constantly but you keep harping back to these prospects list. Make up your mind. Either the list matter or they dont. Whos to say Rolen gets in the box and his back or shoulder goes out again. His value goes down.

If you want to play this game fine, Ill win it every time because Stewart has a more consistent record right now when it comes to production than Rolens health.

4 of those 10 are good prospect/major leaguers, Cueto isnt even on it. That makes 5 prospects who have futures still, and like 4 on that list wouldnt be in our top 20 now if they still were prospects.

We have 10 prospects in our system that would be higher than all of those other than the 4 that graduated, and we have 2 or 3 that are on the same level in terms of prospects that have graduated. We arent dealing with the same system any more.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-01-2009, 03:37 AM
things change constantly but you keep harping back to these prospects list. Make up your mind. Either the list matter or they dont. Whos to say Rolen gets in the box and his back or shoulder goes out again. His value goes down.

If you want to play this game fine, Ill win it every time because Stewart has a more consistent record right now when it comes to production than Rolens health.

4 of those 10 are good prospect/major leaguers, Cueto isnt even on it. That makes 5 prospects who have futures still, and like 4 on that list wouldnt be in our top 20 now if they still were prospects.

We have 10 prospects in our system that would be higher than all of those other than the 4 that graduated, and we have 2 or 3 that are on the same level in terms of prospects that have graduated. We arent dealing with the same system any more.

I don't think the list matter, I was just pointing out two things - 1) that you react as if he's the best prospect in baseball when no one else is saying that and 2) lists are wrong anyway and higher rated prospects in baseball that play here have not turned out well thus far. So lets wait and see, like I've said.

What if we get a good comp pick for Rolen at free agency? Don't forget that either.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 03:43 AM
I didnt say he was the best prospect in baseball. Hes certainly one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. Being top 75 to top 50 on list normally means you are at least top 10 given your position.

you have to offer arbitration get a comp pick. If he doesnt stay healthy do you take the chance of offering a even more banged up Rolen arbitration knowing that he cant receive less than 80% of the money he earned the year before. If we offered him arbitration in 2010 he would be able to earn no less than 8.8 million.

JayBruceFan
08-01-2009, 03:50 AM
Anyone know why Roenicke was in the "doghouse"?

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 04:07 AM
things change constantly but you keep harping back to these prospects list. Make up your mind. Either the list matter or they dont. Whos to say Rolen gets in the box and his back or shoulder goes out again. His value goes down.

If you want to play this game fine, Ill win it every time because Stewart has a more consistent record right now when it comes to production than Rolens health.

4 of those 10 are good prospect/major leaguers, Cueto isnt even on it. That makes 5 prospects who have futures still, and like 4 on that list wouldnt be in our top 20 now if they still were prospects.

We have 10 prospects in our system that would be higher than all of those other than the 4 that graduated, and we have 2 or 3 that are on the same level in terms of prospects that have graduated. We arent dealing with the same system any more.

When you talk about a consistent track record your comparing a minor league track record of just a few years to a major league track record of a guy that plays a position,not a pitcher and only taking into account how often he is injured.That's hard to do but you if your going to do that you also have to take into account that pitchers are a complete crap shoot when it comes to predicting injuries and while that is not what your comparing you have to somehow take that into account.Not to mention the track record of a guy in AA proves only that they might get a chance in the bigs but on average they will fail or end up being a middle reliever.Their is no question where Rolen will be next year if healthy and just about as little question about how he will preform.

As far as the prospects go.I want a farm system that has some dept.I want a farm system that can produce guys that can help the big league team and even on occasion come up and be a star.But trust me.There will be another Zach Stewart next year,and if we can get a guy that can make the big league team better at the deadline this time next year I'll say trade him in a second.You have to remember that this isn't Marge Schotts farm system anymore.

wojo1025
08-01-2009, 08:25 AM
I am not sure why some guys on this board are even fans of this team if they hate everything about the Reds. Seems like eventually you'd find another team to root for.

Yes, I'm disappointed they let Stewart go but I am also excited to see Rolen play the hot corner here in Cincinnati. It will be nice to see a groundball hit to 3rd and not have to hold my breath. It will be nice to have a guy we can plug into the middle of the lineup and he will actually give the team a professional at-bat. Rolen can stay until Fraizer is ready to take over...I'm not sure where the problem is.

I think he is exactly what this team needs. Did it need more? Certainly. I, however, am excited about this move. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm a Reds fan.

the ripper
08-01-2009, 09:36 AM
Roenicke got in Baker's doghouse I'm assuming when he didn't cover 1B on a possible DP.

I like the deal. Hated to see Stewart involved but you give talent to get what you want.

Our pen is still good for next year. Cozart will soon be moved to Louisville and may compete for SS next season, who knows? Frazier and Heisey may do the same in the OF. We're not that far away from competing for the Central in 2010.

I believe Jocketty knows what he wants.:cool:

the ripper
08-01-2009, 09:37 AM
2010

CF Taveras
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
LF Hesiey
C Hanigan
SS FA / Trade / Cozart

redlegs2370
08-01-2009, 10:37 AM
Who says these scouts know what they are talking about? How loyal are they to an organization to go out and second guess upper management's decision. I don't care what business your in you may not agree with a management decision but you shouldn't voice your opinion in the public, much less to go unnamed. To me not only the culture in the clubhouse must change but the culture in the entire organization needs to change if the Reds are going to have post-season success.

texasdave
08-01-2009, 11:05 AM
Dusty must have a pretty big doghouse for a player's manager. Roenicke obviously was in it and Janish is in it BIGTIME.

I can't let it go. Dusty Baker should be fired yesterday. Or the day before. Whichever came first.

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 04:25 PM
If you didnt care about the minors then Joey Votto and Cueto would have been dealt to Baltimore for Bedard last season. People were screaming to get that deal done. Thank god we didnt.

Maybe we didn't because WJ had a good idea of what he would be getting and a good idea of how Cueto and Votto would turn out.Why would you give the Reds credit for handling that right especially after seeing how it would have turned out and then not give this deal a chance?

GIDP
08-01-2009, 04:46 PM
Maybe we didn't because WJ had a good idea of what he would be getting and a good idea of how Cueto and Votto would turn out.Why would you give the Reds credit for handling that right especially after seeing how it would have turned out and then not give this deal a chance?

No that would have been Wayne that didnt make that deal.

malcontent
08-01-2009, 05:02 PM
you have to offer arbitration get a comp pick. If he doesnt stay healthy do you take the chance of offering a even more banged up Rolen arbitration knowing that he cant receive less than 80% of the money he earned the year before. If we offered him arbitration in 2010 he would be able to earn no less than 8.8 million.

And Jocketty will do it, too. IMO, it was a firing-worthy offense when he offered the Ancient Journeyman (Weathers) arb this offseason.

Just a horrible trade, no way around it.

And for all the apologists out there, wait till the Rolen who wore out his welcome in Philly and St. Louis shows up in Cincinnati. You know, the same guy who wanted out of Canada for "personal reasons".

Brainless Toothpick, brainless GM, and brainless owner.

Stormy Weathers
08-01-2009, 05:10 PM
Just because YOU view it that way, doesn't make it true. I've looked at Baseball America's midseason top 50 prospects, he's not on there. Are they wrong too?

This isn't even about the deal. It's the fact you have to pump him to ridiculous proportions. You really just said he's in the same class as Cueto and Votto when he HAS NOT PLAYED A MLB GAME?? Hell he hasn't even started in TRIPLE A YET. How the hell do you come up with these determinations?

Write it down people. A guy who hasn't started in Triple A is AS GOOD AS VOTTO. :bang:

Man you've really lost it. Take a walk or drive or something man, I've think you let your anger get to you. I can see your point of view on not liking the trade, but you really don't need to use ridiculous exaggeration here on where he's at right now as a player.

What else is he? The next Linecum? No wait. The next Clemens. No he's BETTER than Clemens. In his prime.

baseball americas top prospects list is a pretty terrible "source" for an argument.

Stormy Weathers
08-01-2009, 05:15 PM
Im not talkign about Votto now. Im talking about Votto the prospect. The only thing thats changed between then and now is Votto stayed in our system and joined the MLB club.

I wouldnt trade Votto because hes 25 years old and is producing like at an all star level. I dont trade Votto for anyone right now short of Grady Sizemore of Hanley Ramirez. He's cheap, and hes very good. Just like Stewart I wouldnt trade him for anyone unless Im putting him in a deal for another young player. You cant go off trading all these guys for expensive aging vets with injury histories.

Why would you want grady sizemore? I am sick of people who K a billion times and have "potential" but not execution.

gilpdawg
08-01-2009, 05:19 PM
Why would you want grady sizemore? I am sick of people who K a billion times and have "potential" but not execution.
You kidding? Sizemore would instantly be the best player on the Reds, even though he's having a little bit of a down year.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 05:20 PM
Why would you want grady sizemore? I am sick of people who K a billion times and have "potential" but not execution.

26 year old with gold glove D at a premium defensive position and is a pretty darn good hitter. Career OPS+ of 122. How could you not want Grady Sizemore?

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 11:04 PM
No that would have been Wayne that didnt make that deal.

Must of been one of the few good things he did.Wayne is the reason why we are were we are and that we have guys with contracts that no one wants.With the exception of Taveras everyone WJ has signed or acquired by trade with the exception of Taveras could be traded due to reasonable contracts.He seems to have a lot better idea of value the Wayne did.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 11:08 PM
Must of been one of the few good things he did.Wayne is the reason why we are were we are and that we have guys with contracts that no one wants.With the exception of Taveras everyone WJ has signed or acquired by trade with the exception of Taveras could be traded due to reasonable contracts.He seems to have a lot better idea of value the Wayne did.

Id take Waynes style of GMing over Walts. Wayne laid some eggs but Walts just backing up the truck and loading them off right now.

Captain Hook
08-01-2009, 11:55 PM
Id take Waynes style of GMing over Walts. Wayne laid some eggs but Walts just backing up the truck and loading them off right now.

Wayne had his chance.He did make a few good trades but for the most part his style didn't produce any winning seasons and has left the team financially strapped because of the contracts he gave out.Big long term contracts to the wrong guys can hurt a franchise like the Reds for a long time.This team that we all complain about is a product of Krivsky and his bad moves.God forbid Phillips takes a step back because his contract could end up being the worse one of all once the big money kicks in.When we complain about Baker or why we haven't moved one of the big contracts we can't rightfully blame WJ.

GIDP
08-01-2009, 11:59 PM
Walt has made just as many bad contracts if not more. Walt has had 1 offseason and hes locked up Taveras, Lincoln, and worked a deal out to pay David Weathers like 7.5 million over 2 years if they pick up the option.

Captain Hook
08-02-2009, 12:18 AM
I don't really like the Weathers deal but it can be justified and the other two will not cripple the franchise for years to come.I agree they are bad though.Probably as bad as Patterson,Cormier and Stanton.

Ghosts of 1990
08-02-2009, 02:45 AM
Roenicke is going to be a really nice pitcher for a long time in the big leagues, as I think Stewart is too. Roenicke threw well for us. I think he has closer make-up. Not sure why we had to give up all of that to get an aging third baseman that Walt has a history with. That deal only makes sense if we're contending right now. Maybe even then, only a maybe.

Stormy Weathers
08-02-2009, 01:51 PM
26 year old with gold glove D at a premium defensive position and is a pretty darn good hitter. Career OPS+ of 122. How could you not want Grady Sizemore?

his batting average has decreased every year of his career. he k's too much, he is NOT a franchise player. he is not a good leadoff hitter which we need and he is not a 3 or 4 hitter which we need. he is probably the most overrated player in baseball.

Stormy Weathers
08-02-2009, 01:51 PM
You kidding? Sizemore would instantly be the best player on the Reds, even though he's having a little bit of a down year.

his batting average has decreased every year of his career. he k's too much, he is NOT a franchise player. he is not a good leadoff hitter which we need and he is not a 3 or 4 hitter which we need. he is probably the most overrated player in baseball.

GIDP
08-02-2009, 02:56 PM
a .365 career OBP and is a stolen base threat isnt a good lead off hitter?

Grady Sizemore might be the best CFer in baseball.

lidspinner
08-02-2009, 07:28 PM
Then Jocketty needs to be fired. Its like including bruce in a deal because Mike Stanton sucked. If you hated the guy that much you just get rid of him. you dont pay in top prospect talent.

so frustrating.


I agree that Stewart was a top "prospect" and that is as far as ti goes.....I tink we al can name about 50 top talent prospects that never amounted to crap. Rolen is a stud and will help this team in more ways then 1.....time will tell if it was a bad trade but if my only holdup was stewart, then I make that trade 10 out of 10 times....

krm1580
08-02-2009, 09:30 PM
I agree that Stewart was a top "prospect" and that is as far as ti goes.....I tink we al can name about 50 top talent prospects that never amounted to crap. Rolen is a stud and will help this team in more ways then 1.....time will tell if it was a bad trade but if my only holdup was stewart, then I make that trade 10 out of 10 times....

If this was 2002 and we acquired the 27 year old Scott Rolen that the Phillies gave up, I 100% agree with you. The problem I have with the deal is we are not winning in 2009 (Yes, I am going out on a limb and making that prediction) and I don't see them having the ability to do much in 2010. So what does acquiring Scott Rolen get you? One step closer to mediocrity?

lidspinner
08-03-2009, 11:06 AM
If this was 2002 and we acquired the 27 year old Scott Rolen that the Phillies gave up, I 100% agree with you. The problem I have with the deal is we are not winning in 2009 (Yes, I am going out on a limb and making that prediction) and I don't see them having the ability to do much in 2010. So what does acquiring Scott Rolen get you? One step closer to mediocrity?



I'll answer that......getting SR does get you one step closer to being average...he is going to help in the clubhouse and help at 3rd....If other parts of our team steps up and does their job, and we know what we are getting from Rolen, then I say just getting to mediocrity is a giant step above from where we are right now.

Now, let me play the reverse role.......what does keeping EE,Josh and Stewart do for your team? Answer is it keeps you at the below average line and might never get you above water....JoshR and Stewart are 2 great prospects but they also may never pan out ot be anything better than stormy weathers......and if thats the risk this team was gonna have to take, then give me Scott Rolen so at least I know what we have. I will gladly eat my words if Stewart and JoshR turn out to be major league caliber pitchers....But the law of averages says they will turn out to be just regular pitchers.....

this is a great debate to have, its not like we gave up great talent in return for a bum....opinions are running wild with this trade and I love the fact that all reds fans can argue and do it in a mature way......At least we are not the Indians....they gave up Cliff Lee for a shoebox full of litter.

BLEEDS
08-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Reds are on the hook for 11 million next year no matter how you see it. Thats 11 million they now have completely booked up. If you thought that budget was tight this offseason I cant wait to see the one next year.

They also freed up $4.75M

PEACE

-BLEEDS

texasdave
08-03-2009, 11:28 AM
It is going to be difficult, but not impossible, for the Reds to win this trade. I would imagine an extension is likely and the dollars will be fairly significant. Considering the dollars that will be ponied up, Rolen will have to play in at least 140 games a season and play at or near all-star level for the Reds to come out on top. And even that might not be good enough to win the trade for the Reds if Edwin grows up and the prospects pan out. If both ends of the trade stink up the joint the Reds lose simply because of the money.

I have one more thing to say about minor league relievers. Their value should be not be driven by whether you have one or ten in your farm system if you are using them as trade chips. Because even if you have a surplus, the team you are trading them to probably doesn't. That's why they are asking for your minor league relievers. They need them. And since they are on the receiving end, their demand for minor league relievers should drive the value up. Your having extra minor league relievers should not drive the value down. Anyone who feels that it is no big deal to toss away such trading chips willy(taveras)nilly because we have more quality relievers in the minors is missing the point completely IMO.

Ok. One exception to that would be if Rolen was the final piece of the puzzle. Then I would overpay. But he isn't. So I wouldn't. Never undervalue your assets.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 11:45 AM
They also freed up $4.75M

PEACE

-BLEEDS

No they really didnt.

Newman4
08-03-2009, 12:12 PM
My problems with the Rolen trade:

* Rolen asked for a trade and wants to be in Cincinnati. It looks like Walt has some leverage there. Why settle for the package that he gave up?

*With the Reds out of it for this year, why make a trade now other then to try to sell a few more tickets? Wait until after the season so you can further evaluate Roenicke and Stewart and avoid the extra money owed to Rolen.

* Unless Walt trades off some major $$$ then Rolen's contract limits the Reds payroll flexibility. Fay mentioned this as well.

* Looking at the last three years, EE and Rolen have very similar numbers. EE is entering his peak years and Rolen is 34.

* Rolen's slugging pct. has been under .500 since 2006. His OBP and SLG are being upped this season by a BA 30 points higher than his career average. Chances are he will be around an .800 OPS player next season.

* Josh Roenicke misses bats and is cheap. 2.89 ERA in the minors, 10.9 K/9 and 6 HR in 159 IP.

*Zach Stewart needed to be evaluated further. Just 22 and at AAA with a career minors ERA of 1.52, the Reds gave him up before they could tell what they had. Very scary.

malcontent
08-03-2009, 04:09 PM
* Josh Roenicke misses bats and is cheap. 2.89 ERA in the minors, 10.9 K/9 and 6 HR in 159 IP.

*Zach Stewart needed to be evaluated further. Just 22 and at AAA with a career minors ERA of 1.52, the Reds gave him up before they could tell what they had. Very scary.

Their minor league numbers are both top-notch.

Very scary, indeed. IMO, it won't be long before this trade is recognized as the reeker it is.

Kingspoint
08-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Anyone know why Roenicke was in the "doghouse"?

A manager with half a brain doesn't lose talent because someone's in his doghouse. He figures out what motivates that person and gets the most he can out of him.

Trading him away shows a great lack of managerial ability.

Kingspoint
08-03-2009, 04:43 PM
I am not sure why some guys on this board are even fans of this team if they hate everything about the Reds. Seems like eventually you'd find another team to root for.



That's cute.

Wojo from Barney Miller would say the exact same thing. A real gung-ho type of guy. Every group needs a Wojohowitz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSFCyb8lqBc

BLEEDS
08-03-2009, 08:15 PM
No they really didnt.

Oh really? Are they paying EE's salary next year too?

Perhaps I missed that in the trade details.

Care to elaborate?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-03-2009, 09:20 PM
Oh really? Are they paying EE's salary next year too?

Perhaps I missed that in the trade details.

Care to elaborate?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

they added payroll...

gedred69
08-03-2009, 10:26 PM
they added payroll...

And a mega leap forward at 3rd. (At least by historical accounts). I really hope Rolen takes the leadership mantle ala Vaughn or Larkin.......

BLEEDS
08-04-2009, 11:59 AM
they added payroll...

You are really something else.
When you can't win, spin.

You said they are booked for $11M next year for Rolen.
I said they also REDUCED payroll by $4.75M with EE.
You said "no they really didn't", and when pressed this is your answer?

Yes, they added payroll, but not $11M, and by many reports, they didn't even add $6.25M (11 - 4.75) since the Jays are picking some portion of his salary as well.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
08-04-2009, 12:27 PM
You are really something else.
When you can't win, spin.

You said they are booked for $11M next year for Rolen.
I said they also REDUCED payroll by $4.75M with EE.
You said "no they really didn't", and when pressed this is your answer?

Yes, they added payroll, but not $11M, and by many reports, they didn't even add $6.25M (11 - 4.75) since the Jays are picking some portion of his salary as well.

PEACE

-BLEEDS
From the reports they owe Rolen 11 million, and if they dont its not going to be some number that much lower. They added to Edwins salary so I really dont see where they are reducing payroll anywhere. They certainly are adding to it from my POV.

You said they freed up 4.75 million. I dont see where they freed up any cash.

BLEEDS
08-04-2009, 01:48 PM
From the reports they owe Rolen 11 million, and if they dont its not going to be some number that much lower. They added to Edwins salary so I really dont see where they are reducing payroll anywhere. They certainly are adding to it from my POV.

You said they freed up 4.75 million. I dont see where they freed up any cash.

From Next44 on the ORG:

""
Quote:
The Reds' acquisition of Scott Rolen is "without question the most widely panned pre-deadline trade within the industry."
""

That's because all the critics analyzed it before learning about the money involved.

No one said that the Reds got hosed on the talent level, just that Rolen makes too much money and this trade makes it harder for the Reds to do something else since it limits the teams payroll flex. That is what BP, Fangraphs, everyone at ESPN, everyone at MLBTV, and everyone else I read said.

Now if you add in the fact that the Reds will receive around $7M in the deal, it makes much more sense. The Reds add no payroll this year, and only add around $2M next year. Throw in the money saved by trading Hairston, and it's only around $1M.

So the Reds still have basically the same payroll flex they had before the trade, but have upgraded from a guy everyone knows is not a starting 3B, to one of the best in the majors, both defensively and offensively. Rolen is easily the best defensive 3B in the NL, and would be the 6th best offensive 3B in the NL (top ten in the majors).

For that the Reds gave up that previously mentioned utility player who will make close to $5M next year, a 27 year old rookie relief pitcher, and solid B+ prospect.

And they kept their payroll about the same. Had they increased their payroll by around $7M the trade makes no sense, so the money is very important, and something that every commentator on the trade missed.

""

So, there is A LOT of money in the deal, and apparently there are more than a couple people who see Stewart as a "less than top 10 pitching prospect in all of baseball".

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Captain Hook
08-04-2009, 02:34 PM
From Next44 on the ORG:

""
Quote:
The Reds' acquisition of Scott Rolen is "without question the most widely panned pre-deadline trade within the industry."
""

That's because all the critics analyzed it before learning about the money involved.

No one said that the Reds got hosed on the talent level, just that Rolen makes too much money and this trade makes it harder for the Reds to do something else since it limits the teams payroll flex. That is what BP, Fangraphs, everyone at ESPN, everyone at MLBTV, and everyone else I read said.

Now if you add in the fact that the Reds will receive around $7M in the deal, it makes much more sense. The Reds add no payroll this year, and only add around $2M next year. Throw in the money saved by trading Hairston, and it's only around $1M.

So the Reds still have basically the same payroll flex they had before the trade, but have upgraded from a guy everyone knows is not a starting 3B, to one of the best in the majors, both defensively and offensively. Rolen is easily the best defensive 3B in the NL, and would be the 6th best offensive 3B in the NL (top ten in the majors).

For that the Reds gave up that previously mentioned utility player who will make close to $5M next year, a 27 year old rookie relief pitcher, and solid B+ prospect.

And they kept their payroll about the same. Had they increased their payroll by around $7M the trade makes no sense, so the money is very important, and something that every commentator on the trade missed.

""

So, there is A LOT of money in the deal, and apparently there are more than a couple people who see Stewart as a "less than top 10 pitching prospect in all of baseball".

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Even though the amount of money the Reds get has not yet officially been released, this is on point from what I've herd being discussed.If this is the case I feel even better about a trade that I wasn't all that upset about in the first place.

BLEEDS
08-04-2009, 03:15 PM
Even though the amount of money the Reds get has not yet officially been released, this is on point from what I've herd being discussed.If this is the case I feel even better about a trade that I wasn't all that upset about in the first place.

My thoughts exactly.

With the $$, it means we basically seriously upgraded 3B for about $2M. I give up a Top Prospect for that, even if I didn't think these guys were necessarily Top Prospects.

With PayrollFlex still in effect - or at least not diminished; whether they do anything with it or not is TBD - this deal is even more of a no brainer IMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

George Foster
08-05-2009, 12:53 AM
I don't trust anything a Reds scout says. They are worthless.

Tracy Jones said something on the radio last year that made a lot of sense. He said the Reds should go out and "headhunt" some of the best scouts in baseball. Marlins, Twins, and Rays. He said a scout makes somewhere between 65-100K a year. Go out and offer them double or triple what they make now...that kind of money is chump change to a ML ballclub, and you are getting a proven scout with past success.

Anybody including us can pick the kids in the 1st-3rd rounds. It's takes talant to pick kids in the 7th, 12th, 18th round that will make it to the majors. The Twins, Marlins and Rays scouts are excellent at this. Why don't the Reds do this? Well it's because these scouts have been with the Reds a long time, and have built relationships with front office brass. it's hard to fire a "buddy."
Another example why people in management should never have more than a professional relationship with people they hire or can fire.

Kingspoint
08-06-2009, 07:16 PM
Another example why people in management should never have more than a professional relationship with people they hire or can fire.

And, that next time the REDS are for sale, the public should buy them. That way shareholders could fire the board of directors if they don't like what they're doing.

Slyder
08-07-2009, 12:39 AM
And, that next time the REDS are for sale, the public should buy them. That way shareholders could fire the board of directors if they don't like what they're doing.

Its worked for the Packers.