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View Full Version : Has Dusty ruined two more pitchers?



Chip R
08-03-2009, 11:20 AM
We know the history of what happened in Chicago with Wood and Prior. Now, Volquez is going under the knife as we speak and Harang has been ineffective for the majority of last season and this season. Is this just a coincidence or has Dusty's methods cost the Reds two excellent pitchers?

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 11:26 AM
We know the history of what happened in Chicago with Wood and Prior. Now, Volquez is going under the knife as we speak and Harang has been ineffective for the majority of last season and this season. Is this just a coincidence or has Dusty's methods cost the Reds two excellent pitchers?

I don't think Dusty had much of an impact on Volquez, to be honest. Harang on the other hand, that's open for debate. I won't say that Dusty ruined his career, because Harang had a heavy workload before Dusty ever showed up. But could Dusty have monitored his workload more closely? Certainly. I think several factors have led to Harang's decline, and I'd certainly attribute Dusty's usage of him as a factor. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he's ruined his career.

edabbs44
08-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Pitchers get hurt. It is part of the game.

RedsFan75
08-03-2009, 11:33 AM
I blame Bud Selig's WBC for Volquez.

Yeah I know, may not be the case, but heck if I want to blame Bud I will, dog gone it! ;)

dougdirt
08-03-2009, 11:35 AM
I put some of the blame on Baker. There are some things that are just criminal, between San Diego last year, then letting him take a 2.5 hour rain delay and sending him back out there so he could 'get the win' and both times he didn't pitching even close to the same after that.

Degenerate39
08-03-2009, 11:48 AM
I blame winter ball

pahster
08-03-2009, 12:08 PM
I blame Bob Boone.

Booooooooooone!!!

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2009, 01:12 PM
I like Aaron Harang.

However, like many players who rose suddenly from outright mediocrity and marginal major league status to Cy Young candidate and then back to outright mediocrity, I will be forever curious as to exactly why Aaron's career has followed the path it has. Lots of people point back to Harang's relief effort as a turning point. Personally, I'm more interested in exactly what kind of weight Harang lost when he "slimmed down" this offseason and why he lost it.

As for Volquez -- his mechanics were described as questionable from the moment of his aquisition as. Lots of people suggested he had a knife in his future. The good news is that Thomas John surgery isn't the velocity-robbing career killer it once was.

You can blame The Dusty for lots of wrongs, but this ain't one of them, IMO.

Doc. Scott
08-03-2009, 01:19 PM
At this moment, the guy I'm worried about is Homer Bailey. He's been getting the same level of rope out there as the veterans all year, both in Louisville as well as in the bigs. Guy is still just 23 years old.

There were only a handful of questionable decisions from Dusty about Volquez's workload last year. Harang's season undoubtedly went south after the disastrous Dusty decision to pitch him in relief, but I don't think it's a persistent workload issue that is causing his ineffectiveness.

Strikes Out Looking
08-03-2009, 01:20 PM
I blame Dusty for Wayne Simpson and Gary Nolan.

thatcoolguy_22
08-03-2009, 01:29 PM
I blame Dusty for Smallville ever being a show, bad girl scout cookies and, Lebron James going to the Knicks next year. EV? I blame no one. Poor mechanics coupled with winter ball and youth caused the problems... Grr maybe Dick Pole

Kc61
08-03-2009, 04:18 PM
I put some of the blame on Baker. There are some things that are just criminal, between San Diego last year, then letting him take a 2.5 hour rain delay and sending him back out there so he could 'get the win' and both times he didn't pitching even close to the same after that.



We don't know that overwork or usage patterns have hurt Harang at all. But if it has, let's look at the use of Harang BEFORE Baker came to the Reds.

In the years 2005-2007, Harang pitched 211 innings, 234 innings and 231 innings -- a total of 676 innings in three years. If "overwork" hurt this pitcher, the great majority of it happened before Dusty ever got here.

Second point: we tend around here to forget about the ballpark the Reds play in.

Harang is now a fly ball pitcher at GABP. Even in his good years, he allowed his share of home runs. So in 2005 he allowed 22. In 2006 and 2007 -- before Dusty -- he allowed 28 each. Last year, his homers allowed ballooned and this year it remains high.

Point is that Harang's fly ball tendencies present the likelihood that, with the slightest loss of "stuff", he would not thrive in GABP.

Notice that Harang's strikeouts still remain high. His walks have been pretty constant. And his base hits allowed aren't dramatically worse. It's the long balls allowed that is hurting him.

Notice also that Harang's GO/AO ratio has become appreciably more tilted to fly balls. In 2004 it was 1.16 -- actually a slight ground ball tendency. It's become worse (more fly balls) every year -- last year .77, a fairly extreme fly ball pitcher. This year similar.

It appears that with more mileage on his arm, Harang has probably lost some stuff and needs to adjust. So far, that adjustment hasn't happened. And he is likely leaving more pitches up.

There's a lot to chew on with this pitcher and I don't accept the argument that one relief outing or pitching to two batters after a rain delay are all that important.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 04:46 PM
I like Aaron Harang.

However, like many players who rose suddenly from outright mediocrity and marginal major league status to Cy Young candidate and then back to outright mediocrity, I will be forever curious as to exactly why Aaron's career has followed the path it has. Lots of people point back to Harang's relief effort as a turning point. Personally, I'm more interested in exactly what kind of weight Harang lost when he "slimmed down" this offseason and why he lost it.

As for Volquez -- his mechanics were described as questionable from the moment of his aquisition as. Lots of people suggested he had a knife in his future. The good news is that Thomas John surgery isn't the velocity-robbing career killer it once was.

You can blame The Dusty for lots of wrongs, but this ain't one of them, IMO.


You know, for some reason, that never crossed my mind about Harang. But that is one hell of a point.

Dom Heffner
08-03-2009, 05:00 PM
Pitchers get hurt. It is part of the game.

Which is why I wouldn't have traded a good bat for him like Hamilton's.

Brutus
08-03-2009, 05:03 PM
I like Aaron Harang.

However, like many players who rose suddenly from outright mediocrity and marginal major league status to Cy Young candidate and then back to outright mediocrity, I will be forever curious as to exactly why Aaron's career has followed the path it has. Lots of people point back to Harang's relief effort as a turning point. Personally, I'm more interested in exactly what kind of weight Harang lost when he "slimmed down" this offseason and why he lost it.

As for Volquez -- his mechanics were described as questionable from the moment of his aquisition as. Lots of people suggested he had a knife in his future. The good news is that Thomas John surgery isn't the velocity-robbing career killer it once was.

You can blame The Dusty for lots of wrongs, but this ain't one of them, IMO.

I've been thinking this for a while and been afraid to say it. I'm surprised it's not been brought up more often.

This day and age, given the circumstances, it cannot be ruled out.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Which is why I wouldn't have traded a good bat for him like Hamilton's.

I agree Dom. For a team that is far away from contending, a bat like Hamilton is a better long term bet.

I realize Hamilton is also having a bad year, but I'd still rather have him.

REDREAD
08-03-2009, 05:14 PM
I've been thinking this for a while and been afraid to say it. I'm surprised it's not been brought up more often.

This day and age, given the circumstances, it cannot be ruled out.

Yeah, it certainly can't be ruled out. We even have the Oakland connection.

I remember when Harang was picked up, most people were more excited about Joe Valentine, the hard throwing reliever that could not throw a strike.

Harang went from projected rotation filler to ace pretty quick. I hope it was due to hard work, but you are right, it is reasonable to be suspicious.

edabbs44
08-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Which is why I wouldn't have traded a good bat for him like Hamilton's.

I think the "goodness" of Hamilton's bat is up for debate.

2007 he hit well but in limited time.

2008 was the coming out party, except his stats were totally inflated by the home park. .345/.408/.611 versus .263/.331/.448.

2009 has been a disaster, even when he's been on the field.

For all the hoopla around the two mega-acquisitions of Hamilton and Volquez, they might both end up as being flashes in the pan.

Chip R
08-03-2009, 07:33 PM
Yeah, it certainly can't be ruled out. We even have the Oakland connection.


Yep. I initially poo-poohed that thought but I remembered he came from the OAK organization.

RedsManRick
08-03-2009, 08:19 PM
As somebody who was very concerned about the way Dusty has handled his pitchers, I don't think there's a credible argument that the problems our starters are experiencing are his fault. Harang's issue is mechanical and simply has not been corrected -- I put that on Pole. Volquez is a young guy with a violent delivery. Nobody should be surprised he had to go under the knife.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Well, for what seems like the 100th time in two weeks, Dusty sends a pitcher back out for another inning after he had thrown close to 110 pitches, and like always, it come back to bite him in the butt as more runs scored. Horrible. Dusty will never learn will he? He ruined a very solid start by Harang by leaving him in too long, yet again. How predictable.

Clueless.

Always Red
08-03-2009, 09:15 PM
Well, for what seems like the 100th time in two weeks, Dusty sends a pitcher back out for another inning after he had thrown close to 110 pitches, and like always, it come back to bite him in the butt as more runs scored. Horrible. Dusty will never learn will he? He ruined a very solid start by Harang by leaving him in too long, yet again. How predictable.

Clueless.

Agreed.

Harang had 113 pitches in already, but more importantly, was laboring, and spinning balls up there. Up to the 8th, this was the best he had looked in quite some time.

HokieRed
08-03-2009, 09:15 PM
Well, for what seems like the 100th time in two weeks, Dusty sends a pitcher back out for another inning after he had thrown close to 110 pitches, and like always, it come back to bite him in the butt as more runs scored. Horrible. Dusty will never learn will he? He ruined a very solid start by Harang by leaving him in too long, yet again. How predictable.

Clueless.

Agree. I haven't thought Dusty was primary among the problems since there are so many obvious player deficiencies. But Dusty's judgments are just pitiful. Janish should have had a take at 2-0 in the 7th. and Harang should never have come out. Now it's obvious he's letting Janish hit b/c he's got it partly in mind to run Harang out there again. It's pitiful. It's long past time that Pole and Jacoby should have been gone; it's nearing time for the Dusty to be gone.

cincrazy
08-03-2009, 09:33 PM
Well, for what seems like the 100th time in two weeks, Dusty sends a pitcher back out for another inning after he had thrown close to 110 pitches, and like always, it come back to bite him in the butt as more runs scored. Horrible. Dusty will never learn will he? He ruined a very solid start by Harang by leaving him in too long, yet again. How predictable.

Clueless.

If Dusty took Harang out when Harang should be taken out, Harang would probably be challenging Bob Gibson's record low ERA of 1.12 for a season.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2009, 10:04 PM
Horrible night by Dusty. He left Harang in too long yet again and it cost the Reds a run. He then lets Janish bat for himself with two runners on and two outs. Janish of course makes an out. Fats forward to the 9th inning: Reds have the tying run on second base with two outs and Willy Taveras up. The obvious choice is to pinch hit, right? Well, Dusty didn't think so. Taveras hit for himself and grounded out weakly. It's time for Dusty to go. This whole organization is clueless, from the owner to the GM to the manager.

Brutus
08-03-2009, 10:38 PM
It's interesting. For a few years, Aaron Harang was an effective pitcher despite being among the major league leader in innings and pitches per start. He routinely passed peoples' expectations of innings and pitch counts and still worked pretty deep into many games.

Now that he has been struggling, he gives up some runs after exceeding 100-110 pitches and the manager can't manage.

I'm starting to think the recession is Dusty's fault too.

tommycash
08-03-2009, 10:42 PM
I don't like Dusty, but I think it is unfair to blame him here.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2009, 12:24 AM
Well, for what seems like the 100th time in two weeks, Dusty sends a pitcher back out for another inning after he had thrown close to 110 pitches, and like always, it come back to bite him in the butt as more runs scored. Horrible. Dusty will never learn will he? He ruined a very solid start by Harang by leaving him in too long, yet again. How predictable.

Clueless.

Obviously Dusty Baker hasn't learned his lesson from his previous 15 screwups in the last two weeks. Take tonight for example. Homer Bailey had thrown 95 pitches through six innings and was due to lead off the top of the 7th inning. Instead of pinch hitting for Bailey, Dusty kept him in the game and of course it come back to bite him as the Giants first two hitters reached base before Homer was pulled. I could understand it a little more if Bailey had been throwing a gem, but he wasn't. He should have been PH for in the 7th inning. JMO.

Big Klu
08-08-2009, 12:52 AM
Obviously Dusty Baker hasn't learned his lesson from his previous 15 screwups in the last two weeks. Take tonight for example. Homer Bailey had thrown 95 pitches through six innings and was due to lead off the top of the 7th inning. Instead of pinch hitting for Bailey, Dusty kept him in the game and of course it come back to bite him as the Giants first two hitters reached base before Homer was pulled. I could understand it a little more if Bailey had been throwing a gem, but he wasn't. He should have been PH for in the 7th inning. JMO.

First, let me say that I don't care about pitch counts. I haven't seen any evidence as to why 100 pitches is the "magic number", except that conventional wisdom says it is. I think it's because it's a nice, round number.

That being said, I absolutely agree that Homer should have been lifted for a PH in the top of the seventh inning. First, he had labored throughout the game. I don't know what the pitch count was (and I don't care), but he had allowed a lot of baserunners. Take his six-inning stint tonight and run.

Second, he was leading off the inning. Send up a PH (Sutton maybe) and try to get a runner on base instead of leading off the inning with a near-automatic out.

Emin3mShady07
08-08-2009, 12:55 AM
Dusty is a poor decision maker and that doesn't help him in this issue at all. He has left his pitchers in too long in quite a few starts as has been pointed out, but you don't know what the players are saying. Who knows? Baker could be asking his guys if they feel good and letting them pitch if they say yes. It shows a clear lack of common sense by Baker, but I don't think he can truly ruin an arm, unless he was forcing guys to throw 150+ pitches every game, which is not the case.

Emin3mShady07
08-08-2009, 12:59 AM
A good, but older article on stress on pitcher's arms.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=148

Kc61
08-08-2009, 01:02 AM
Dusty doesn't like to use his bullpen unnecessarily. He's spoken frequently about the importance of a fresh pen. He also believes that a starting pitcher should be able to go 7 or 8 innings every time.

Sometimes, when a pitcher is obviously out of gas, he's wrong to leave the starter out there. Sometime he's right.

Some fans think that when a pitcher gets around 100 pitches a manager should err on the side of lifting him.

It's a difference of philosophy. But i'd remind everyone that when your relievers are constantly in the game in the sixth and seventh inning, it takes its toll. We've seen other managers lift the starter early and then the pen gets worn out.

Also, lifting the starter is a risk because there's never a guarantee that the reliever will have his stuff. So it's not always such a simple decision.

Big Klu
08-08-2009, 01:17 AM
Dusty doesn't like to use his bullpen unnecessarily. He's spoken frequently about the importance of a fresh pen. He also believes that a starting pitcher should be able to go 7 or 8 innings every time.

Sometimes, when a pitcher is obviously out of gas, he's wrong to leave the starter out there. Sometime he's right.

Some fans think that when a pitcher gets around 100 pitches a manager should err on the side of lifting him.

It's a difference of philosophy. But i'd remind everyone that when your relievers are constantly in the game in the sixth and seventh inning, it takes its toll. We've seen other managers lift the starter early and then the pen gets worn out.

Also, lifting the starter is a risk because there's never a guarantee that the reliever will have his stuff. So it's not always such a simple decision.

Valid points.

Tony Cloninger
08-08-2009, 01:56 AM
I don't agree with 100 pitches being the limit either....but in some cases...it is and clearly..Dusty seems to lack a feel for when it is. Never letting a pitcher go beyond 100 pitches is not good but neither is not knowing when it clearly is.

He does this with Arroyo and Harang all the time. They cannot always throw 120 pitches and go into the 7th or 8th. After almost 2 years here...you have to clearly know when they are spent.

TheNext44
08-08-2009, 02:59 AM
I actually liked Dusty leaving Homer in there to start the 7th tonight. He looked gassed once he was out there, but he had only thrown 95 pitches and looked fine the inning before.

Now is the time to start pressing Bailey, to make him test his limits. Now is not the time to baby him, but to have him experience as many situations as possible and hopefully learn from each of them. Wins don't matter anymore, the only thing that is important is development.

GAC
08-08-2009, 04:25 AM
As somebody who was very concerned about the way Dusty has handled his pitchers, I don't think there's a credible argument that the problems our starters are experiencing are his fault. Harang's issue is mechanical and simply has not been corrected -- I put that on Pole. Volquez is a young guy with a violent delivery. Nobody should be surprised he had to go under the knife.

Thoroughly agree.

But everything else I blame on Dusty though. :p:

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2009, 06:19 PM
Wow. Dusty defies the odds and does it again. Harang has thrown 95 pitches through seven innings. The Reds are winning 5-1 in the 8th inning and have the bases loaded with two outs and the pitchers spot up. Instead of pinch hitting and going for the potential kill, Dusty leaves Harang in and he gives up three straight hits. Unreal. Harang's pitch count wasn't super high, but ti was high enough where he should have PH for Harang and tried to score another run or two. This is about the fifth time this has happened in the last two weeks and Dusty still hasn't learned from his mistakes.

Dusty Baker has no clue when to pull a pitcher.

Brutus
08-09-2009, 06:22 PM
Wow. Dusty defies the odds and does it again. Harang has thrown 95 pitches through seven innings. The Reds are winning 5-1 in the 8th inning and have the bases loaded with two outs and the pitchers spot up. Instead of pinch hitting and going for the potential kill, Dusty leaves Harang in and he gives up three straight hits. Unreal. Harang's pitch count wasn't super high, but ti was high enough where he should have PH for Harang and tried to score another run or two. This is about the fifth time this has happened in the last two weeks and Dusty still hasn't learned from his mistakes.

Dusty Baker has no clue when to pull a pitcher.

Maybe I'm just a big Dusty, but I don't think he should have pulled Harang at 95 pitches. Harang was having a relatively stress-free game. Given up one run and 95 pitches, I put him back out there with the caveat I have someone ready in case I need to get him.

The Dusty-bashing has gotten to the point everything he does is wrong.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2009, 06:32 PM
I don't have a problem sending Harang back out there with 95 pitches, though if it had been me I would have pinch hit for Harang in the 8th and tried to put the game away. My main beef is allowing Harang to stay in long enough to load the bases. If the lead off man reaches base, you pull him. You can't keep him in there long enough to load the bases, IMO. Dusty's lucky the Giants only scored one run.

Brutus
08-09-2009, 08:30 PM
I don't have a problem sending Harang back out there with 95 pitches, though if it had been me I would have pinch hit for Harang in the 8th and tried to put the game away. My main beef is allowing Harang to stay in long enough to load the bases. If the lead off man reaches base, you pull him. You can't keep him in there long enough to load the bases, IMO. Dusty's lucky the Giants only scored one run.

I agree with you on this. I think he should have taken him out after one or two batters. I just didn't have a problem with him running Harang back out there to start the inning.