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View Full Version : Frazier, the next Jeff Kent?



redhawk61
08-03-2009, 04:28 PM
From Lance McAllister's Blog

Baseball Prospectus:
"A supplemental first-round pick in 2007, Frazier was a shortstop in college and began there as a pro, but since than he's taken a slow road on the downside of the defensive spectrum, moving to third base, followed by an outfield corner outfield and, at times, first base. As an infielder he was an impressive offensive prospect, but as a left fielder or first baseman he was average at best. Suddenly at second base since the end of July and hitting .302/.357/.497 overall, the Reds suddenly are dreaming on Frazier turning into a Jeff Kent-esque offensive-oriented second baseman."

GIDP
08-03-2009, 04:30 PM
Trade him for Dan Uggla.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-03-2009, 04:30 PM
Now that the season is basically over, why not get a head start and move BP to SS?

What harm is there in trying it?

GIDP
08-03-2009, 04:31 PM
I hope they at least give BP to SS a shot. Its a easy path to take so there is no reason not to at least give it a shot. If it doesnt work then all that happens is Brandon moves right back to 2nd.

Come on Reds just give it a shot already.

princeton
08-03-2009, 04:36 PM
Suddenly at second base...


until his next move.

TF's on his third position in less than a year. and he's gone from a hard one to a very easy one to another hard one, and he's probably still not at the correct one. Meanwhile, we're focusing on defense at the major league level while de-emphasizing defense in the minors.


CAN WE BUY A CLUE???????????

Chip R
08-03-2009, 04:40 PM
until his next move.

TF's on his third position in less than a year. and he's gone from a hard one to a very easy one to another hard one, and he's probably still not at the correct one. Meanwhile, we're focusing on defense at the major league level while de-emphasizing defense in the minors.


CAN WE BUY A CLUE???????????


4th if you count 1st base.

mace
08-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Now that the season is basically over, why not get a head start and move BP to SS?

What harm is there in trying it?

Amen. For the life of me, I can't figure why they didn't do that last year. I can see absolutely no downside. You're out of the race, so use the time to at least find out if your most talented infielder (at least, before Rolen) can play the most important position. Same thing this year. As it is, you don't have an answer at short, and chances are you'll spend a lot of money trying to find one. Why in the world would you not take a look at what you've got? We all know that it's worlds easier to find a second baseman than a shortstop. Seems like there's everything to gain and nothing to lose. If Phillips can't handle SS, okay, move on. But for pete's sake, find out!

Kingspoint
08-03-2009, 04:49 PM
Don't think he'll come close to being as good as Kent.

Don't seen any MVP's in his future.

vottofan4life
08-03-2009, 04:49 PM
How about a trade for the offseason say?

Reds acquire Dan Uggla and Cody Ross, cash
Marlins acquire Jared Burton, Chris Valaika, Juan Francisco and Paul Janish

Move BP to ss have an infield of 1b votto, 2nd Uggla, ss BP, 3b Rolen, C Hanigan + another catcher, and then an outfield of RF JB and JG, CF Stubbs, and Lf Cody Ross and I mentioned a trade that could happen this august if the Reds acquire Jose Guillen for either Harang or Arroyo since the contracts match up so Guillen could play left wit ross, trade heisey+ for a sp like josh johnson, johnathan sanchez,phil hughes,or brian bannister

Edd Roush
08-03-2009, 04:50 PM
How about a trade for the offseason say?

Reds acquire Dan Uggla and Cody Ross, cash
Marlins acquire Jared Burton, Chris Valaika, Juan Francisco and Paul Janish

Move BP to ss have an infield of 1b votto, 2nd Uggla, ss BP, 3b Rolen, C Hanigan + another catcher, and then an outfield of RF JB and JG, CF Stubbs, and Lf Cody Ross and I mentioned a trade that could happen this august if the Reds acquire Jose Guillen for either Harang or Arroyo since the contracts match up so Guillen could play left wit ross, trade heisey+ for a sp like josh johnson, johnathan sanchez,phil hughes,or brian bannister

We really can't get over this Cody Ross fascination can we?

Kingspoint
08-03-2009, 04:51 PM
Try a few notches down to compare Frazier to someone.

FYI, here's baseball reference's comparison of who Jeff Kent compares to:

Most Similar by Ages

25-Khalil Greene (981) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26Bret Boone (984) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27-Mike Lieberthal (981) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28-Mike Lieberthal (968) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29-Rich Aurilia (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
30-Joe Gordon (954) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
31-Joe Gordon (949) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
32-Joe Gordon (928) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
33-Joe Gordon (925) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
34-Nomar Garciaparra (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
35-Bret Boone (893) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
36-Yogi Berra (877) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
37-Yogi Berra (907) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
38-Yogi Berra (916) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
39-Yogi Berra (887) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
40-Yogi Berra (848) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
* - Signifies Hall of Famer

It's also not a good idea to compare anybody to anybody from the "steroids era", as it's a strong possibility that these players were no where near as good as their stats project them to be. It's highly likely that Jeff Kent was a steroids user. He didn't have the right rise and decline that 10,000 players had before him whether they were Hall-of-Famers, All-Stars, or regular starters.

Kc61
08-03-2009, 04:52 PM
A guess. With the Rolen trade the Reds now project Frazier as his eventual replacement at third. In the interim, for a couple of years, he will be a bench player for the team. He's learning second now to be able to fill that slot when necessary.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Don't think he'll come close to being as good as Kent.

Don't seen any MVP's in his future.

Jeff Kent only had 1 or 2 seasons as good as that MVP year. I don think its much of a stretch to think Frazier could be a Jeff Kent type of player. Maybe not an MVP having an 1.000 OPS season like Kent but .850? I dont think it would be a surprise.

princeton
08-03-2009, 05:00 PM
A guess. With the Rolen trade the Reds now project Frazier as his eventual replacement at third.

until Rolen's extension is signed, at which point Frazier moves to, to, to....?

relief pitcher, at this rate.

GIDP
08-03-2009, 05:02 PM
until Rolen's extension is signed, at which point Frazier moves to, to, to....?

relief pitcher, at this rate.

he moves to the Diamondbacks for Doug Davis

Chip R
08-03-2009, 05:03 PM
until Rolen's extension is signed, at which point Frazier moves to, to, to....?

relief pitcher, at this rate.


Catcher?

Kingspoint
08-03-2009, 05:10 PM
Jeff Kent only had 1 or 2 seasons as good as that MVP year. I don think its much of a stretch to think Frazier could be a Jeff Kent type of player. Maybe not an MVP having an 1.000 OPS season like Kent but .850? I dont think it would be a surprise.

There aren't too many people capable of having 1.000 OPS seasons. I would do whatever I could to acquire those players. Unfortunately, a medium market club like the REDS guarantee themselves to not making the playoffs if they ever attempt to keep those types of players once they're free-agents. It puts too large a piece of the pie on position players leaving nothing for the rest of the club, especially where they need it the most, pitching. This is now the current formula for failure with the Rolen signing....Larkin/Junior all over again. Say hello to near 100-loss seasons again.

jojo
08-03-2009, 05:13 PM
He would be an offensive force as a pitcher.

HokieRed
08-03-2009, 05:20 PM
I didn't think the interview with Miller was terribly informative, but I do think he said something about the way they see Frazier. They like that they can "slot him in" all over the place: translation, he's going to be a "super sub."

JayBruce
08-03-2009, 06:06 PM
until Rolen's extension is signed, at which point Frazier moves to, to, to....?

relief pitcher, at this rate.

San Diego for David Eckstein.

nemesis
08-03-2009, 07:45 PM
Don't think he'll come close to being as good as Kent.

Don't seen any MVP's in his future.

I'm sure when Kent was coming thru the minors and they were saying he profiles out to be a Sandberg type offensive second baseman someone somewhere went ah he wont ever be MVP or Hall of Fame caliber. Why dismiss what the kid can do before he gets 1 AB in the majors? The dismisal of every prospect, every player in this franchise control on a constant basis by almost everyone on this board gets really f'n old.

Kingspoint
08-04-2009, 07:57 PM
The dismisal of every prospect, every player in this franchise control on a constant basis by almost everyone on this board gets really f'n old.

I suppose it could seem that way, but the word "everyone" is pretty extreme. I'm not one. M2 isn't one, dougdirt isn't one, and I could probably name 200 more that aren't. Most of us pick and choose because we try to evaluate them for exactly what they are.

You're really going out on a limb to compare someone to someone who has won an MVP.

Over the course of Frazier's career there will probably only be 10-12 players who will win the award in his particular league. It's very, very, very unlikely that he's the best player in the league even one time and be among those 10-12 players.

KoryMac5
08-04-2009, 08:53 PM
Hal was on the radio talking about Frazier playing second base in Carolina. Looks like we may see that Phillips move to shortstop after all.

Kingspoint
08-04-2009, 08:56 PM
Hal was on the radio talking about Frazier playing second base in Carolina. Looks like we may see that Phillips move to shortstop after all.
....or another stupid move of the Scott Rolen for the farm type.

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2009, 08:57 PM
Jocketty on the Frazier move to second and other topics
Posted by JohnFay at 8/4/2009 6:11 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The Reds didnít move Todd Frazier to second base as a prelude to moving Brandon Phillips to shortstop. But Walt Jocketty didnít dismiss the idea.

ďThe reason we moved Frazier Ė we probably should have done it earlier Ė was with (Juan) Francisco at third and (Zack) Cozart at shortstop, we wanted to see if (Frazier) could play second. We know he can play the outfield, third and short.

ďIt wasnít done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesnít mean that wonít happen. But itís never been discussed.Ē

Itís a safe bet that the Reds wonít pick up Alex Gonzalezís option for next year. Phillips came up at shortstop. Heís been open in the past to shift back.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a40f67015-0e9f-415e-8792-f42edcb401d5&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Kingspoint
08-04-2009, 09:08 PM
Jocketty on the Frazier move to second and other topics
Posted by JohnFay at 8/4/2009 6:11 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

The Reds didnít move Todd Frazier to second base as a prelude to moving Brandon Phillips to shortstop. But Walt Jocketty didnít dismiss the idea.

ďThe reason we moved Frazier Ė we probably should have done it earlier Ė was with (Juan) Francisco at third and (Zack) Cozart at shortstop, we wanted to see if (Frazier) could play second. We know he can play the outfield, third and short.

ďIt wasnít done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesnít mean that wonít happen. But itís never been discussed.Ē

Itís a safe bet that the Reds wonít pick up Alex Gonzalezís option for next year. Phillips came up at shortstop. Heís been open in the past to shift back.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a40f67015-0e9f-415e-8792-f42edcb401d5&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Thanks. Very informative.

bubbachunk
08-04-2009, 09:11 PM
Even if the move Phillips, which they wont. They need to move Frazier up to get him ML ready, which they wont.

Edd Roush
08-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Even if the move Phillips, which they wont. They need to move Frazier up to get him ML ready, which they wont.

Bubba, I for one do not believe that Frazier needs to be moved up this season to be made major-league ready. 432 PA at AA with a .858 OPS is enough of a qualifier for the bat to play regularly at second IMO. The footwork and other defensive attributes unique to second base can be worked on just as easily in AA as the could in AAA. As a bonus, he won't have to worry about adjusting to a new environment in AAA while also learning a new position. I think if Frazier keeps his OPS above .850 for the rest of the year at AA and proves sufficient defensively at second, I would have no problem with dubbing him opening day starter at second base.

An infield of Votto-Frazier-Phillips-Rolen actually gets me kind of excited for next year. If Walt were to add Dye and Webb in the off-season, that would give us a pretty exciting team for next year IMO and validates the Rolen deal.

TRF
08-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Bubba, I for one do not believe that Frazier needs to be moved up this season to be made major-league ready. 432 PA at AA with a .858 OPS is enough of a qualifier for the bat to play regularly at second IMO. The footwork and other defensive attributes unique to second base can be worked on just as easily in AA as the could in AAA. As a bonus, he won't have to worry about adjusting to a new environment in AAA while also learning a new position. I think if Frazier keeps his OPS above .850 for the rest of the year at AA and proves sufficient defensively at second, I would have no problem with dubbing him opening day starter at second base.

An infield of Votto-Frazier-Phillips-Rolen actually gets me kind of excited for next year. If Walt were to add Dye and Webb in the off-season, that would give us a pretty exciting team for next year IMO and validates the Rolen deal.

In 2007, Adam Rosales had a combined 500 AB's between A+ and AA, splitting time between both levels evenly. He had an .881 OPS at A+, and a staggering .926 at AA.

Adam Rosales was a better hitter at AA than Todd Frazier, according to the numbers.

Nothing is certain. Frazier needs more PA's, and he needs to be exposed to AAA pitching. Soon.

Edd Roush
08-05-2009, 01:09 PM
In 2007, Adam Rosales had a combined 500 AB's between A+ and AA, splitting time between both levels evenly. He had an .881 OPS at A+, and a staggering .926 at AA.

Adam Rosales was a better hitter at AA than Todd Frazier, according to the numbers.

Nothing is certain. Frazier needs more PA's, and he needs to be exposed to AAA pitching. Soon.

Good point. I would still rather have Frazier play second and Phillips play short and spend some money on a big bat for LF and shore up the pitching staff, rather than blowing all of my money/prospects on landing a shortstop and not being able to address LF and the pitching staff.

krm1580
08-05-2009, 01:14 PM
San Diego for David Eckstein.

Sadly I fear this would not be out of the realm of possibility.

HokieRed
08-05-2009, 01:16 PM
If Frazier even approaches Jeff Kent, he'll play somewhere. Good organizations move minor leaguers according to timetables based on the players' skill levels.

JKam
08-05-2009, 02:28 PM
“The reason we moved Frazier – we probably should have done it earlier – was with (Juan) Francisco at third and (Zack) Cozart at shortstop, we wanted to see if (Frazier) could play second. We know he can play the outfield, third and short.

If they know he can play 3rd, SS and outfield, they must not have a lot of confidence in him because prior to the Rolen trade, he could have been used at 3ed and there is certainly a need at the major league level for a SS and outfielder.

princeton
08-05-2009, 03:35 PM
If they know he can play 3rd, SS and outfield, they must not have a lot of confidence in him because prior to the Rolen trade, he could have been used at 3ed and there is certainly a need at the major league level for a SS and outfielder.

yup.

I would have auditioned Frazier in September, introduced EdE to left field, platooned Dickerson with one of the kids in center.

but sandbagging Frazier better fits the 2015 plan, as does drafting Yonder over Gordon Beckham

Rojo
08-05-2009, 07:51 PM
I would have auditioned Frazier in September, introduced EdE to left field, platooned Dickerson with one of the kids in center.

And that would required a new manager.

Rojo
08-05-2009, 07:58 PM
I remember thinking the Brewers were a crappy org after BJ Surhoff came up as a catcher and Sheffield as a SS. Move 'em down the spectrum until they register a plus.