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15fan
08-04-2009, 09:35 AM
Looking down the baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/) index page for the Reds, I was intrigued by the amount of managerial churn the organization has seen. Entering play today, here is how Reds managers have fared going back 50 years:

Dusty: 119-148
Mackanin: 41-39
Narron: 157-179
Miley: 125-164
Boone: 190-238
McKeon: 291-259
Knight: 125-137
Johnson: 204-172
Perez: 20-24
Piniella: 255-231
Helms: 28-36
Rose: 412-373
Rapp: 51-70
Nixon: 101-131
McNamara: 279-244
Anderson: 863-586
Bristol: 298-265
Heffner: 37-46
Sisler: 121-94
Hutchinson: 443-372
Smith: 45-35

Over the span of 50 years, the Reds have had 7 managers make it through 3 or more full seasons. The last person to do it was Jack McKeon.

Another way to look at it is that 8 of the last 9 and 11 of the last 14 managers have lasted less than 3 full seasons in Cincinnati. Of the 3 who made it to 3 full seasons, McKeon was in charge for less than 3.5 years, Piniella was manager for exactly 3 years, and Pete Rose managed the equivalent of 4.85 seasons.

Compare that to, say, the Cardinals. Since the start of play in 1981, only 5 guys have managed the Cardinals: the vast majority were managed by LaRussa, Torre, and Herzog. Red Schoendienst managed 24 games in 1990, and Mike Jorgensen went 42-54 in 1995.

I can think of a variety of ways to interpret this. One is that it's tough to gain much traction if the guy at the top changes almost as often as the seasons change. Another is that ownership in Cincinnati has been cheap. Or bad at evaluating leadership ability. Or the talent in the organization has generally been substandard.

Whatever the case, the main thing to take away is that Cincinnati managers should rent instead of buy. Odds are that none of them will be around long.

Eric_the_Red
08-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Man, do I miss Jack McKeon. He seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of his players, and seemed to start the right guy at the right time. I think he'd be a perfect fit for this team and the younger players.

Perhaps we are experiencing the McKeon Curse, after he was fired the year after winning MoY?

RedsManRick
08-04-2009, 10:09 AM
I don't believe that the best way to assessment a manager is by his W-L record, as it fails to account for his baseline of talent (Certainly sparky had more to work with than Dusty...), but here's the list sorted by winning percentage.


Manager Wins Losses Win%
Anderson 863 586 .596
Sisler 121 94 .563
Smith 45 35 .563
Hutchinson 443 372 .544
Johnson 204 172 .543
McNamara 279 244 .533
Bristol 298 265 .529
McKeon 291 259 .529
Rose 412 373 .525
Piniella 255 231 .525
Mackanin 41 39 .513
Knight 125 137 .477
Narron 157 179 .467
Perez 20 24 .455
Heffner 37 46 .446
Dusty 119 148 .446
Boone 190 238 .444
Helms 28 36 .438
Nixon 101 131 .435
Miley 125 164 .433
Rapp 51 70 .421

nate
08-04-2009, 10:11 AM
All I can say is, the Reds sure mishandled Tony Perez.

RANDY IN INDY
08-04-2009, 10:13 AM
A manager is only as good as his players and the organization that he works for.

westofyou
08-04-2009, 10:14 AM
Man, do I miss Jack McKeon. He seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of his players, and seemed to start the right guy at the right time. I think he'd be a perfect fit for this team and the younger players.

Perhaps we are experiencing the McKeon Curse, after he was fired the year after winning MoY?

Jack had a short shelf life, he was good with kids for a brief time but soured as he stayed longer, it happened everywhere he managed.

He liked his office, he liked the writers, but he was more Earl Weaver to the team in personality than he was Dusty Baker. More kids didn't like him then those who did.

What he was good at was managing the BP and sitting dead weight, but he was not loved by many and eventually he lost them.

Happened in Fla too.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 10:19 AM
All I can say is, the Reds sure mishandled Tony Perez.


He wasn't really wanted by JimBo. It was a dog and pony show to show MLB that Marge wasn't prejudiced. Just like when Walt became available and Bob used the first excuse he could to fire Wayne, JimBo took the first chance he got to fire Tony and hire his man, Davey Johnson.

RANDY IN INDY
08-04-2009, 10:21 AM
Jack had a short shelf life, he was good with kids for a brief time but soured as he stayed longer, it happened everywhere he managed.

He liked his office, he liked the writers, but he was more Earl Weaver to the team in personality than he was Dusty Baker. More kids didn't like him then those who did.

What he was good at was managing the BP and sitting dead weight, but he was not loved by many and eventually he lost them.

Happened in Fla too.

Same things I have heard.

savafan
08-04-2009, 12:30 PM
Looking at that list, I find it disappointing that the better managers were the ones who were mistreated by the organization, and the worst managers were given far too much rope with which to hang themselves.

princeton
08-04-2009, 12:57 PM
see, Cast's most successful manager (admittedly, small sample size) is one that he sacked immediately.

the man does not know what needs to be changed. he fixes the things that don't need fixed, and makes those into new problems.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Looking at that list, I find it disappointing that the better managers were the ones who were mistreated by the organization, and the worst managers were given far too much rope with which to hang themselves.


Much like the players.

REDREAD
08-04-2009, 01:38 PM
see, Cast's most successful manager (admittedly, small sample size) is one that he sacked immediately.

the man does not know what needs to be changed. he fixes the things that don't need fixed, and makes those into new problems.

Yeah, I'm sure if McKain were managing now it would really make a difference :rolleyes:

The Reds are stuck with some bad contracts now. Naturally, they should try to move them. However, we will probably be stuck crossing our fingers and hope they rebound next year. At least AGon will finally be "gone" after this year, and thankfully Freel and EdE have been jettisoned.

wolfboy
08-04-2009, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I'm sure if McKain were managing now it would really make a difference :rolleyes:

Yeah, Mackanin probably would have stunk up the joint just like Dusty has, but that's precisely the point. Manager wasn't the problem.