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Ltlabner
08-04-2009, 12:27 PM
Not that it's any great shock to those paying attention over The Lost Decade, but the Reds as an organization are a mess.

Some various examples:

While there's been some small improvements in the pitching realms, generally speaking the Reds have been very weak at pitching development & coaching. How many times have we watched a pitcher flounder here only to go be effective/serviceable elsewhere? How many times have we watched pitching coaches doze on the bench when it's obvious a trip to the mound is warranted?

Talent evaluation has been suspect. This is the franchise that has targeted such luminaries as Corey Patterson, Paul Bako, Juan Castro, Deangelo Jameniz (sp?), JHJ and Edabb's favorite player of all time, Willy Taveras. Yes, the buck stops at the GM, but what about the lower level talent scouts, advisers, etc. I can't believe they didn't play some sort of role in suggesting and campaigning for these players.

Resource management. You would think it would take an act of congress to get the Reds to move players to new positions. How many years did we hear that it was impossible to move KGJ to RF? Although I've argued against it, why not move BPhil to short stop for a year to try it out? If it fails, move him back. Why was Edwin E glued to 3B when he could have at least been moved to LF as an experiment? Not saying all of these are no-brainer moves, but IMO the Reds have missed the boat in simply changing a players position to solve a problem rather than trying to bring someone new in.

Scouting: Other teams seem to have the book on us from the get go, while we seem mystified when we face other teams. It's likely more of an issue of talent and a lineup of hackers, but the advance scouting area seems weak (at best).

Ownership: We've gone from Linder who didn't seem to care, to Bozo Bob who doesn't want to deal with the reality of the state of his company. He simply refuses to understand his "win now" attitude, while admirable, isn't helping his company. Not much we can do about ownership, but it effects the organization as a whole.
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Each of these areas are worthy of their own separate discussions (and have been many times over the years), and I'm sure people can take issue with any or all of the examples I've given. But I don't think many people can argue that the Reds, from top to bottom, are a deeply flawed organization.

Sadly, other than simply boycotting the product, there is little as fans can do. More sadly is that the Reds are way down the list of entertainment options and for people born in the 1980's they simply don't know winning baseball in Cincy. They don't care. Meanwhile, the older folks are starting to not care.

Without something radical, I don't see how The Lost Decade isn't going to become The Lost Generations.

BRM
08-04-2009, 12:33 PM
Scouting: Other teams seem to have the book on us from the get go, while we seem mystified when we face other teams. It's likely more of an issue of talent and a lineup of hackers, but the advance scouting area seems weak (at best).

Team Clark has touched on this one in the past. It really boggles the mind that it's so noticable from those outside the organization but the Reds can't seem to get it fixed.

Team Clark
08-04-2009, 12:47 PM
Team Clark has touched on this one in the past. It really boggles the mind that it's so noticable from those outside the organization but the Reds can't seem to get it fixed.

It hasn't changed at all. Just watch how they pitch Phillips, Gonzo, Nix, etc. Same sequence over and over. The only chance guys have is if it's right down the middle or a hanger. Gonzo got two DREAM pitches last night. Fortunately he hit them.

KoryMac5
08-04-2009, 12:49 PM
It hasn't changed at all. Just watch how they pitch Phillips, Gonzo, Nix, etc. Same sequence over and over. The only chance guys have is if it's right down the middle or a hanger. Gonzo got two DREAM pitches last night. Fortunately he hit them.

Very evident in the dugout last night when Lee was giving Wells advice on how to pitch to Reds hitters during the top half of an inning.

RichRed
08-04-2009, 12:49 PM
Is Marge "All scouts do is watch games" Schott still the owner?

princeton
08-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Ownership: We've gone from Linder who didn't seem to care, to Bozo Bob who doesn't want to deal with the reality of the state of his company. He simply refuses to understand his "win now" attitude, while admirable, isn't helping his company.

I think that Cast just wants to help, but is too unsophisticated to actually understand what's wrong. So he changes things that don't need changing, and makes those worse. Meanwhile, the things that do need changing go unattended. Also, the GMs want to follow his lead, and do goofy things as a result even though they're good GMs.

it's tough to watch, but can't possibly change. we already have had two good GMs and so what can possibly change if ownership does not?

edabbs44
08-04-2009, 01:13 PM
Edabb's favorite player of all time, Willy Taveras.

Can't help but :). I am sure Willy is a genuinely nice boy.


Without something radical, I don't see how The Lost Decade isn't going to become The Lost Generations.

The time for something radical was a few years ago. Now we are faced with the following two realizations:


Contracts of size that aren't in Cincy's favor. Tough to deal, so you either have to eat some money or wait for them to expire.
If you want to rebuild, you need a couple of year waiting period. Just in time for guys like Votto and Cueto to become expensive and bolt.


Let's just say that I bet not many GMs envy the position Walt is in. Can't add enough payroll to matter, can't shed the worst contracts.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 01:50 PM
I think that Cast just wants to help, but is too unsophisticated to actually understand what's wrong. So he changes things that don't need changing, and makes those worse. Meanwhile, the things that do need changing go unattended. Also, the GMs want to follow his lead, and do goofy things as a result even though they're good GMs.

it's tough to watch, but can't possibly change. we already have had two good GMs and so what can possibly change if ownership does not?


The problem is that every owner is going to be pretty much the same. Any new owners are going to be pretty much like the old owners. Bob may care more than Carl but is caring and being incompetent any better than not caring and incompetent?

Rojo
08-04-2009, 03:13 PM
My biggest beef is that this organization doesn't do anything well anymore. They have no niche. In the 70's and 80's they were great at turning toolsy guys into ballplayers. In the 90's they had a great trader. Now they have GM who's main skill is buying, and they have no money.

MikeS21
08-04-2009, 03:41 PM
Drafting-Scouting-Development ...

Drafting: The Reds seem to exist on the "even-a-blind-squirrel-occasionally-finds-a-nut" method. We've come up with decent players like Kearns, Dunn, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, and Bruce. But one can't help but wonder if they were accidental picks or part of an actual planned strategy.

Scouting: Seems the Reds' scouts look for apples when everyone else in baseball is looking for oranges.

Development: Guys like Austin Kearns, Homer Bailey, and Jay Bruce ought to be tearing the league up right now. You have to wonder what their ceiling would be had they been drafted by the Indians, the Braves, or some other team who knew how to develop talent.

Redlegs
08-04-2009, 08:24 PM
I don't think it's fair to compare previous ownership to this one. I have no doubts that Mr. Castellini wants to win here in Cincinnati.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 09:01 PM
I don't think it's fair to compare previous ownership to this one. I have no doubts that Mr. Castellini wants to win here in Cincinnati.

Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.

Redlegs
08-04-2009, 09:41 PM
Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.I'm not so sure Mr. Linder was ever committed to winning. Perhaps one could make the argument because he brought Griffey in here, but he didn't fulfill his promise to bring talent around him. Linder was about the bottom line, all the time. He would have never have brought a Scott Rolen type player in here.

RedEye
08-04-2009, 10:11 PM
I'm not so sure Mr. Linder was ever committed to winning. Perhaps one could make the argument because he brought Griffey in here, but he didn't fulfill his promise to bring talent around him. Linder was about the bottom line, all the time. He would have never have brought a Scott Rolen type player in here.

Except for when he brought Ken Griffey Jr. and re-signed Barry Larkin. Those guys were "Scott Rolen type" players (if what you mean by that term is "aging perennial All-Stars").

Actually I think someone pointed out in another thread (and rightly so) that the Larkin extension might soon be seen as a precursor to the eventual Rolen extension Jocketty and others have already mentioned. If that happens, the Reds will be struggling to get out from under Rolen's deal even if they do succeed in shedding the Harang and Arroyo contracts.

This franchise never learns.

Heath
08-04-2009, 10:46 PM
Sure he does. So did Lindner and Marge and every other owner except maybe John T. Brush. Wanting to and knowing how to are two different things.

I wonder about Sid Weil though....

:)

cincrazy
08-04-2009, 10:48 PM
If Walt is able to pull this team out of the muck and get them to the playoffs a few times, he should be immediately inducted into the Hall of Fame and the place should be renamed in his honor.

_Sir_Charles_
08-04-2009, 11:02 PM
Not that it's any great shock to those paying attention over The Lost Decade, but the Reds as an organization are a mess.


I'm not really arguing against any of the original post, but I do think that fans need to keep things in perspective a bit in regards to THIS season.

1B: Out for an extended period

2B: Playing with a broken thumb for a large portion of the season

SS: In and out with injuries and coming back from a major one

3B: Out for the majority of the season with injury, traded and new one is out with "injury"

C: Out for the remainder of the season most likely due to surgury. Backup out with injury too.

LF: Platoon...nobody really expected much realistically here

CF: Started off well, but struggled mightily since. And dealt with numerous injuries as well. Starter & backup.

RF: Struggled most of the season in sophmore slump. Injured for majority of second half with broken wrist.

Overall, the position players who HAVE been healthy have struggled...more than expected.

SP: Volquez out for majority of season and now remainder of next season. Rest of rotation has been up and down. Struggling recently due to trying to do too much due to lack of offense...trying to be TOO perfect. Too much pressure to perform.

RP: Several juggled in and out due to injuries. Numerous have performed better than expected.

With all of these problems, there was no manager/general manager/owner that was going to pull the rabbit out of the hat this season. I know we've had a woeful past decade, but I don't count this season in it. We've just been really snake-bit this season. We could make zero changes this off season and still be improved enough to compete for the division title (no, I'm not suggesting we don't NEED to make any changes...we do).

A season like this one tends to blow the organizational problems out of proportion. We're on the right track...we just need a MASH unit set up next to that track. :O)

Chip R
08-04-2009, 11:07 PM
I'm not so sure Mr. Linder was ever committed to winning. Perhaps one could make the argument because he brought Griffey in here, but he didn't fulfill his promise to bring talent around him. Linder was about the bottom line, all the time. He would have never have brought a Scott Rolen type player in here.

Perhaps not but I'm sure he wanted to win. He just may not have really tried that hard but I'm sure he wanted to win.