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View Full Version : Grade the Volquez/Hamilton trade now



bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 05:09 PM
My opinion from the start has been this trade will eventually go down as one of the worst in franchise history.

and what do we need this year. A Big bat might have pushed this team over the edge.

Can anybody honestly tell me they dont like this lineup better than what was presented to us day in and day out this year.

1. Dickerson
2. Brand phillips
3. Joey Votto
4. josh hamilton
5. Scott rolen
6. Jay bruce
7. Gonzalez
8. Hanigan

A. harang
B. Arroyo
J. Cueto
H. Bailey
M. Owings

I think with that lineup We are still competing in the NL central.

And with the addition of a legit leadoff man, and a good riddance to Gonzo contract. This team is looking stellar.

tyfighter
08-04-2009, 05:16 PM
hamilton is having a pretty injury ridden and bad season himself. id give it a wash maybe edge to us because danny ray herrera is kicking ass this season.

Captain Hook
08-04-2009, 05:21 PM
I can't see why anyone would change their opinion at this point.If you hated it you probably still do.Bruce has had a better season then Hamilton has and it seems to me that a lot of people think that Bruce has had a terrible season.Volquez and Hamilton has helped and hurt their teams equally depending on what year you want to talk about.

Hamilton certainly has a chance to preform well while Volquez is out and if he does the scale will tip in the Rangers favor.Until that happens I still say its a wash.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 05:21 PM
hamilton is having a pretty injury ridden and bad season himself. id give it a wash maybe edge to us because danny ray herrera is kicking ass this season.

herrera. Cmon that guy is journeyman.

he will never last to be much of anything on a playoff type team.

And a wash i dont think so. hamilton just returned not to long ago and is a bit of slump. he'll pull out before the end of the year and make an impact on the rangers playoff run.

The rangers were just as bad as us a couple years back.

now look at them. In the same division as the dodgers and still 14 games over .500.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 05:22 PM
.

Hamilton certainly has a chance to preform well while Volquez is out and if he does the scale will tip in the Rangers favor.Until that happens I still say its a wash.

Haha holding on to that final Strand.

Lockdwn11
08-04-2009, 05:24 PM
herrera. Cmon that guy is journeyman.

he will never last to be much of anything on a playoff type team.

And a wash i dont think so. hamilton just returned not to long ago and is a bit of slump. he'll pull out before the end of the year and make an impact on the rangers playoff run.

The rangers were just as bad as us a couple years back.

now look at them. In the same division as the dodgers and still 14 games over .500.

WHAT? You win man, I guess you know more about baseball then the rest of us. Heck I didn't even know the Rangers was in the NLWest:rolleyes:

GIDP
08-04-2009, 05:27 PM
herrera. Cmon that guy is journeyman.

he will never last to be much of anything on a playoff type team.

And a wash i dont think so. hamilton just returned not to long ago and is a bit of slump. he'll pull out before the end of the year and make an impact on the rangers playoff run.

The rangers were just as bad as us a couple years back.

now look at them. In the same division as the dodgers and still 14 games over .500.

Hamilton has been back for over a month and is hitting to the tune of a .533 OPS over that time. You can predict and predict but its not changing what is going on with him.

Rangers are in the NL west now?

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 05:27 PM
WHAT?

not dodgers. i mean angels. Point still stands. Angels being in the AL are probably better than the dodgers.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 05:29 PM
Josh hamilton is not the player he is displaying right now.

its called a slump.

Its pretty obvious from his previous two season stats.

GIDP
08-04-2009, 05:31 PM
hes been slumping for half a season apparently.

Captain Hook
08-04-2009, 05:36 PM
Haha holding on to that final Strand.

I'm just saying that it should be considered that Volquez is out for a year and that it shouldn't be assumed that Hamilton will repeat 2008 in that time frame.

Now if the question was would I still make the trade then I'd say no.Only because we have replaced Hamilton with CP last year and Taveras this year and possibly next year as well.Volquez will be out a full year and in that time frame Hamilton could be great.Knowing these things you would be a fool not to want to have Hamilton going forward.Not knowing these things I'd still trade a young All-Star CF for a young All-Star pitcher.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 06:12 PM
I'm just saying that it should be considered that Volquez is out for a year and that it shouldn't be assumed that Hamilton will repeat 2008 in that time frame.

Now if the question was would I still make the trade then I'd say no.Only because we have replaced Hamilton with CP last year and Taveras this year and possibly next year as well.Volquez will be out a full year and in that time frame Hamilton could be great.Knowing these things you would be a fool not to want to have Hamilton going forward.Not knowing these things I'd still trade a young All-Star CF for a young All-Star pitcher.


The thread is based on us KNOWING these things.

So your saying you should have voted Post tommyjon knowledge teh rangers killed us>?

I completely agree with you and cant believe the rest of the people here are STILL saying the best thing for the team was to Do this trade.

:eek:

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 06:15 PM
hes been slumping for half a season apparently.

58 games isnt half a season. More like a third.

lidspinner
08-04-2009, 07:43 PM
58 games isnt half a season. More like a third.

true....lets re-visit this at the end of the year....but do you agree that if he is STILL in this slump, you will call it a wash?

I agree that this trade looks a little bleak right now but I would have to go back and see if you were still posting these same threads last year when Edinson was mowing down hitters at an absurd rate......IMO, it was a wash last year and its a wash this year.....Josh Hamilton has a lot of flaws in his game. I dont think his game would be putting us over the top this year at all..

BluegrassRedleg
08-04-2009, 08:57 PM
If people don't understand why it was important for the Reds to start collecting good, young arms, there's no help for them in this poll. Regardless of what may happen, it was the RIGHT thing to do.

Captain Hook
08-04-2009, 09:39 PM
The thread is based on us KNOWING these things.

So your saying you should have voted Post tommyjon knowledge teh rangers killed us>?

I completely agree with you and cant believe the rest of the people here are STILL saying the best thing for the team was to Do this trade.

:eek:

Yes your right then.I still like the trade and how it worked out last year even though we were terrible.Volquez has shown TOR stuff and that's hard to come by.I make that trade every time and if this is how it ends up I'd kick myself in the butt and then make the same kind of trade again.There is still the chance this works out well for the Reds but the odds are that it won't now.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 09:43 PM
So you disagree that the lineup i posted above would have been much better than anything we saw this year>?

Sure every franchise needs to gather up big arms to support the team. However you dont see the yankees trading away a A.Rod for a prospect arm. With no proof of durability or ability.

and to the reds. thats what we did. imo.

Hamilton, votto, phillips, and bruce should be the face of this franchise.

Captain Hook
08-04-2009, 10:01 PM
So you disagree that the lineup i posted above would have been much better than anything we saw this year>?

Sure every franchise needs to gather up big arms to support the team. However you dont see the yankees trading away a A.Rod for a prospect arm. With no proof of durability or ability.

and to the reds. thats what we did. imo.

Hamilton, votto, phillips, and bruce should be the face of this franchise.

No, I don't disagree.It would have been nice to have had that lineup but if you consider how Hamilton has done this year it wouldn't have made any difference.We would be right where we are right now anyway.Going into the season we had a rotation of.....

Harang
Volquez
Aaroyo
Cueto
Owens

and that was pretty good.It hasn't worked out and you could say that it hasn't worked out because Volquez was hurt before he ever got a chance to get going.Actually while he was still pitching the Reds were doing pretty good and since the injury they have stunk.It has hurt not having a even mediocre Volquez and if he had gotten hot he could have made a big difference.

I really hate arguing this because I can't explain how much I rather have a healthy Hamilton while Volquez sits for the next year but you just never know how things are going to work out.

bgwilly31
08-04-2009, 10:38 PM
No, I don't disagree.It would have been nice to have had that lineup but if you consider how Hamilton has done this year it wouldn't have made any difference.We would be right where we are right now anyway.Going into the season we had a rotation of.....

Harang
Volquez
Aaroyo
Cueto
Owens

and that was pretty good.It hasn't worked out and you could say that it hasn't worked out because Volquez was hurt before he ever got a chance to get going.Actually while he was still pitching the Reds were doing pretty good and since the injury they have stunk.It has hurt not having a even mediocre Volquez and if he had gotten hot he could have made a big difference.

I really hate arguing this because I can't explain how much I rather have a healthy Hamilton while Volquez sits for the next year but you just never know how things are going to work out.


You posted while i posted. i forgot to quote and posted to the guy before you.

I believe you and I are the same page. somewhat.

I was against the trade from the get Go. And im definitely against it now.

Slyder
08-05-2009, 12:30 AM
It was risk for risk. Neither side has anything to show from the trade THIS season. If I had the desire to look back I wonder how many that are bringing this up also were against WMP for Arroyo...

or liking a certain signing of a certain centerfielder...

we can all do that see we told you so 5 yr old crap. Some just choose not to.

Live
Learn
Move On.

Blood Red Path
08-05-2009, 02:04 AM
Josh hamilton is not the player he is displaying right now.

its called a slump.

Its pretty obvious from his previous two season stats.

Previous 2 seasons??? Since the trade all Hamilton has had is one good half season(last year's first half).

Since you want to downplay the recent struggles of Mr. Hamilton as small sample size, how about this? Since LAST YEAR's all-star break till now, the guy is around .260 with like 60 RBI(in case you can't do the math that is for nearly a full season's worth of ABs). Seems to me we could find a much less risky option to provide that kind of production then Josh Hamilton.

bounty37h
08-05-2009, 09:28 AM
I knew it was a trade we had to do-we HAD to get pitchers. I didnt like giving up Hamilton-as he had become my fav player before even comgin to the Reds-I got to watch him play growing up and he is the freakest best ballplayer I have seen live in my lifetime. However, I probably would have said don't make the trade if I knew we would just follow it up by signing the crap we have to play CF since Hamilton left. Prob a wash in the end I guess at this point, who knows, guess it doestn matter anymore.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 11:21 AM
imo opinion it does matter.

The reds made this trade because they saw the Potential Superstartdome in Josh hamilton. And with that comes BIG BIG $$$$ . So they traded him away for some dominican prospect that they could pay pennies for the next few years and get some talent out of.

ITS ALL ABOUT money with this team. And is why the reds have sucked for years.

JayBruce
08-05-2009, 11:41 AM
imo opinion it does matter.

The reds made this trade because they saw the Potential Superstartdome in Josh hamilton. And with that comes BIG BIG $$$$ . So they traded him away for some dominican prospect that they could pay pennies for the next few years and get some talent out of.

ITS ALL ABOUT money with this team. And is why the reds have sucked for years.

:confused:

I don't want to call you an idiot, but...

bellposter
08-05-2009, 11:42 AM
Volques is 4-2 this year he has a chance to win his fifth game soon(September 2010)

lidspinner
08-05-2009, 12:29 PM
bgwilly......come on pal....99% of the time your opinions are very much dead on with what we all are thinking....but you are either way off base or Josh hamilton got your password and is posting under your name......There is not 1 scout in the MLB network of scouts that would not advise their team against that trade.....both teams got better and both teams took a risk. in our case, Josh was a bigger risk due to alot of things......EV is a big risk as well but we will never know who won the trade war until a few years go by....and as have been pointed out already, I think Josh Hamilton is playing about where he is supposed to.....250 hitter, 15-20 HR's and 75-100 RBI's per year......now if Edinson does what he is supposed to, then I take Edinson every time.......

I understand people fell in love with Josh hitting 4000 homeruns in the derby, and I understand he is a feel good story....but that is all he is. He is a good player, period....he is not great. call me when he hits over .300 for a few years in a row.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 12:53 PM
bgwilly......come on pal....99% of the time your opinions are very much dead on with what we all are thinking....but you are either way off base or Josh hamilton got your password and is posting under your name......There is not 1 scout in the MLB network of scouts that would not advise their team against that trade.....both teams got better and both teams took a risk. in our case, Josh was a bigger risk due to alot of things......EV is a big risk as well but we will never know who won the trade war until a few years go by....and as have been pointed out already, I think Josh Hamilton is playing about where he is supposed to.....250 hitter, 15-20 HR's and 75-100 RBI's per year......now if Edinson does what he is supposed to, then I take Edinson every time.......

I understand people fell in love with Josh hitting 4000 homeruns in the derby, and I understand he is a feel good story....but that is all he is. He is a good player, period....he is not great. call me when he hits over .300 for a few years in a row.

Well remeber this trade from the get go rubbed me raw. And this volquez tommyjon just rubbed salt in the wound.

I was hamilton fan long before the derby. as i think most were here. I think the only fans he gained from that were outside of cincinnati.

I think your kinda being naive to post him as being a .250 hitter. When his career avg already after 3 yrs is over that. No stats will prove that theory. I have more confidence that he bats around the 300 mark next year.


But the facts remain. Right now this team has one for the worst offenses in the MLB. Josh hamilton .300 power hitter is something this team HAS to HAVE. Much like you guys said before the trade HAD TO BE MADE. Well we HAVE to have these types of hitters as well. Or you get a year like we have this year.

bounty37h
08-05-2009, 01:05 PM
bgwilly......come on pal....99% of the time your opinions are very much dead on with what we all are thinking....but you are either way off base or Josh hamilton got your password and is posting under your name......There is not 1 scout in the MLB network of scouts that would not advise their team against that trade.....both teams got better and both teams took a risk. in our case, Josh was a bigger risk due to alot of things......EV is a big risk as well but we will never know who won the trade war until a few years go by....and as have been pointed out already, I think Josh Hamilton is playing about where he is supposed to.....250 hitter, 15-20 HR's and 75-100 RBI's per year......now if Edinson does what he is supposed to, then I take Edinson every time.......

I understand people fell in love with Josh hitting 4000 homeruns in the derby, and I understand he is a feel good story....but that is all he is. He is a good player, period....he is not great. call me when he hits over .300 for a few years in a row.


I know he hasnt produced at the level to deabte you, but he is far beyond just a good player. I have watched him since early high school, and have never seen another natural gifted player as him in my life. I know, doenst matter if he hasnt/doesnt follow up on it, but your wrong to say thats all he is.

Jones1
08-05-2009, 01:17 PM
err

Jones1
08-05-2009, 01:18 PM
My opinion from the start has been this trade will eventually go down as one of the worst in franchise history.

and what do we need this year. A Big bat might have pushed this team over the edge.

Can anybody honestly tell me they dont like this lineup better than what was presented to us day in and day out this year.

1. Dickerson
2. Brand phillips
3. Joey Votto
4. josh hamilton
5. Scott rolen
6. Jay bruce
7. Gonzalez
8. Hanigan

A. harang
B. Arroyo
J. Cueto
H. Bailey
M. Owings

I think with that lineup We are still competing in the NL central.

And with the addition of a legit leadoff man, and a good riddance to Gonzo contract. This team is looking stellar.

Are you serious AGAIN! Just added my first person to ignore should have done it long ago.

Blood Red Path
08-05-2009, 02:34 PM
I know he hasnt produced at the level to deabte you, but he is far beyond just a good player. I have watched him since early high school, and have never seen another natural gifted player as him in my life. I know, doenst matter if he hasnt/doesnt follow up on it, but your wrong to say thats all he is.

Why is he wrong. Hamilton has done nothing in the majors to prove he is anything more than just a good player. Maybe when you saw him at an early age he loooked amazing... but the fact is HE threw that all away!! I commend him for getting himself back on track and molding himself into a guy who projects to be an above average major leaguer for several years, but lets not get carried away- you're making this kid out to be Mickey Mantle. Last year will be his career year(aided by the strength of one torrid half season facing pitchers who had no familiarity with him)- going foward he should continue to be what he is: a .265 - .275 hitter with marginal power, passable defense, and decent run production. A solid player, but only a star for his personality, not for his game.

JWP
08-05-2009, 03:01 PM
Why is he wrong. Hamilton has done nothing in the majors to prove he is anything more than just a good player. Maybe when you saw him at an early age he loooked amazing... but the fact is HE threw that all away!! I commend him for getting himself back on track and molding himself into a guy who projects to be an above average major leaguer for several years, but lets not get carried away- you're making this kid out to be Mickey Mantle. Last year will be his career year(aided by the strength of one torrid half season facing pitchers who had no familiarity with him)- going foward he should continue to be what he is: a .265 - .275 hitter with marginal power, passable defense, and decent run production. A solid player, but only a star for his personality, not for his game.

This is well said. Let's face it, for a guy with Hamilton's history, the fact that he even projects to be that good is incredible.

As of now, this trade has been a wash, but I still make it 100 times out of 100. If Hamilton returns to being a monster player and Volquez doesn't return to form after his surgery, then fine, I'll admit that it didn't work out.

But hey, at the time, pitching was a need, and the Reds moved to fill it.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 03:19 PM
Why is he wrong. Hamilton has done nothing in the majors to prove he is anything more than just a good player. Maybe when you saw him at an early age he loooked amazing... but the fact is HE threw that all away!! I commend him for getting himself back on track and molding himself into a guy who projects to be an above average major leaguer for several years, but lets not get carried away- you're making this kid out to be Mickey Mantle. Last year will be his career year(aided by the strength of one torrid half season facing pitchers who had no familiarity with him)- going foward he should continue to be what he is: a .265 - .275 hitter with marginal power, passable defense, and decent run production. A solid player, but only a star for his personality, not for his game.

What i love about your Trade supporters is that you wont take it as fact that hamilton is bound to stardome and a lot of money with all-star numbers.

But you will take it as fact that his injury year is more of what he will be like career .250 hitter. marginal power.

So most of the time new guys break into the leagues. they're first FULL year of playing is their career year>? Oh yeah you guys are just full of facts.

Lockdwn11
08-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Here some facts for you Hamilton numbers for the year.

.223 7 hr 29 rbi .277obp .372 sug Whats not to love I guess

GIDP
08-05-2009, 04:25 PM
Hes just in a 200+ AB slump. Dont pay attention to those numbers.

Lockdwn11
08-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Hes just in a 200+ AB slump. Dont pay attention to those numbers.

Plus injured most of the year as many here said he would be before the trade.

BlastFurnace
08-05-2009, 05:12 PM
He had a pretty serious injury to his groin earlier this year. He's still not healthy, but playing. He'll be back to normal next year.

I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and had heard about Volquez for years before the trade. He was always all hype, but no substance when he was here. I was shocked to see him pitch so well when the Reds got him, but I was always skeptical. Now that he is having TJ surgery, who knows if he will ever be any good again.

When the trade was made, I thought it was incredibly stupid. I still do.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 05:17 PM
He had a pretty serious injury to his groin earlier this year. He's still not healthy, but playing. He'll be back to normal next year.

I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and had heard about Volquez for years before the trade. He was always all hype, but no substance when he was here. I was shocked to see him pitch so well when the Reds got him, but I was always skeptical. Now that he is having TJ surgery, who knows if he will ever be any good again.

When the trade was made, I thought it was incredibly stupid. I still do.

Thank you :thumbup:

Lockdwn11
08-05-2009, 05:22 PM
He had a pretty serious injury to his groin earlier this year. He's still not healthy, but playing. He'll be back to normal next year.

I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and had heard about Volquez for years before the trade. He was always all hype, but no substance when he was here. I was shocked to see him pitch so well when the Reds got him, but I was always skeptical. Now that he is having TJ surgery, who knows if he will ever be any good again.

When the trade was made, I thought it was incredibly stupid. I still do.

And he will be injured next year as well. He has spent time on the DL in all of his three seasons in the majors.

BlastFurnace
08-05-2009, 06:01 PM
And he will be injured next year as well. He has spent time on the DL in all of his three seasons in the majors.

Not everyone is Cal Ripken. Point is, as we see it right now, atleast he will be on the field next year.

How many Reds in the Reds lineup right now is capable of doing what Josh did last year. Maybe Votto.

How many Reds in the past 15 years have done what Josh did last year...Eric Davis, Griffey, Vaughn, Dunn...anyone else?

BluegrassRedleg
08-05-2009, 06:06 PM
imo opinion it does matter.

The reds made this trade because they saw the Potential Superstartdome in Josh hamilton. And with that comes BIG BIG $$$$ . So they traded him away for some dominican prospect that they could pay pennies for the next few years and get some talent out of.

ITS ALL ABOUT money with this team. And is why the reds have sucked for years.


I call nonsense on this. The Reds are spending money. Just not spending money wisely.

Lockdwn11
08-05-2009, 06:23 PM
Not everyone is Cal Ripken. Point is, as we see it right now, atleast he will be on the field next year.

How many Reds in the Reds lineup right now is capable of doing what Josh did last year. Maybe Votto.

How many Reds in the past 15 years have done what Josh did last year...Eric Davis, Griffey, Vaughn, Dunn...anyone else?

Who cares about last year. How many Reds pitchers in the last 15 years did what Volquez did last year or should I say the first 1/2 of last year? (both were all-stars) What I'm trying to say is just because Hamilton had a great 1/2 season last year doesn't mean he will ever repeat it and the same goes for Volquez. It doesn't mean they won't. Neither has so it means nothing.

Some people are acting like what Hamilton did the first 1/2 of last season was the real Josh Hamilton but the Josh Hamilton from last years all-star break to this point a year later is just in a slump . Who got the better end of the trade at this point I don't know and nither does the Hamilton suporter.

I am a Josh Hamilton fan and would have liked him to have stayed but I am a Reds fan first and for most and if he had to go to bring this team sorely needed pitching help so be it and I would do it agian.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 06:46 PM
Who cares about last year. How many Reds pitchers in the last 15 years did what Volquez did last year or should I say the first 1/2 of last year? (both were all-stars) What I'm trying to say is just because Hamilton had a great 1/2 season last year doesn't mean he will ever repeat it and the same goes for Volquez. It doesn't mean they won't. Neither has so it means nothing.

Some people are acting like what Hamilton did the first 1/2 of last season was the real Josh Hamilton but the Josh Hamilton from last years all-star break to this point a year later is just in a slump . Who got the better end of the trade at this point I don't know and nither does the Hamilton suporter.

I am a Josh Hamilton fan and would have liked him to have stayed but I am a Reds fan first and for most and if he had to go to bring this team sorely needed pitching help so be it and I would do it agian.

funny sig. :rolleyes:

So would you trade joey votto for a zach stewart and a couple other no name prospects right now>?

Lockdwn11
08-05-2009, 06:55 PM
funny sig. :rolleyes:

So would you trade joey votto for a zach stewart and a couple other no name prospects right now>?

No, because Votto doesn't come along with the risk that comes from Hamiltons past with all the abuse and harm he has done to his body and Stewart IMO doesn't have the same upside Volquez did at the time of the trade some see him as a Relief pitcher/closer but we will have to wait and see on that. Let me ask you this would you trade Votto for Hamilton right now if the Ranger offered it to you?

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 07:58 PM
No, because Votto doesn't come along with the risk that comes from Hamiltons past with all the abuse and harm he has done to his body and Stewart IMO doesn't have the same upside Volquez did at the time of the trade some see him as a Relief pitcher/closer but we will have to wait and see on that. Let me ask you this would you trade Votto for Hamilton right now if the Ranger offered it to you?

No because that would be counter productive. We need to add hitters. Not switch hitters.

I see Hamilton as basically another votto. Hamilton in my mind talent and potential wise might have a bit of an edge.

GIDP
08-05-2009, 08:04 PM
the problem is you dont really see Hamilton at all.

JayBruce
08-05-2009, 08:52 PM
No because that would be counter productive. We need to add hitters. Not switch hitters.

I see Hamilton as basically another votto. Hamilton in my mind talent and potential wise might have a bit of an edge.

LOL, you're a clown. Hamilton might have had more potential than Votto ten years ago before he put that pipe in his mouth, but not anymore.

Hamilton is 28 and, when you factor in the damage drugs have done to his body (Yes, it's true, even if you're too dense to understand), well into his prime as a professional baseball player. He'll fall off within the next 4 years, and he'll fall hard.

bgwilly31
08-05-2009, 09:15 PM
LOL, you're a clown. Hamilton might have had more potential than Votto ten years ago before he put that pipe in his mouth, but not anymore.

Hamilton is 28 and, when you factor in the damage drugs have done to his body (Yes, it's true, even if you're too dense to understand), well into his prime as a professional baseball player. He'll fall off within the next 4 years, and he'll fall hard.


Its great you can see in the future so well. When we will win a world series>?

Blood Red Path
08-06-2009, 12:42 AM
I see Hamilton as basically another votto. Hamilton in my mind (and my mind only, because no one else on the planet would be blinded enough to believe this) talent and potential wise might have a bit of an edge.

There, I fixed that for you.

How can you possibly justify that opinion??

bgwilly31
08-06-2009, 01:13 AM
I think about 10 other people before me have already done that pretty well. Try readin the rest of the thread,

Blood Red Path
08-06-2009, 01:20 AM
I think about 10 other people before me have already done that pretty well. Try readin the rest of the thread,

Sorry.

What I am trying to stress is my bewilderment that you can say Hamilton has more upside than Votto. Can you really believe that, or are you just overstating your opinion to make your point?

lidspinner
08-06-2009, 08:26 AM
I know he hasnt produced at the level to deabte you, but he is far beyond just a good player. I have watched him since early high school, and have never seen another natural gifted player as him in my life. I know, doenst matter if he hasnt/doesnt follow up on it, but your wrong to say thats all he is.

I have watched Josh since he was drafted...I never seen him in high school but I watched him and I had the same opinion of you until he got himself in trouble, then when he came back, I saw a different player.....I saw a guy who had TONS of power...but that was it. You and I could both go back and look at stats of thousands of players that have had 1 GREAT year only to go back to average years after that.....Shoot, the Reds have had plenty of them...I am just saying he had a great run in cincy.....but the player he has been since the trade is probably the player he is going to be the rest of his career....Of course this is opinion only and I hate that my opinion is like that....I am a devout christian who has paid good money to see him and his wife speak...I put him on the same level as Tim Tebow......but that doesnt mean I want him being the man on my team that I expect a .300 average with 35-120 numbers....it wont happen again. put it in your sig that I quoted that.

However, if Josh can get himself on a team where he is protected from top to bottom, I think he can be a little above average....I just really do think his numbers in cincy were more of a fluke than they are average....call me silly, its only my opinion and these next few years will prove if I am right, or you are right......

Also, even if Josh was/is as good as you state....I still trade him for EV. Starting pitching is what will win us a pennant.....look at the Yankees, you can score 6 runs a game all you want...but if the other team scores 7..??? I know we suck offensively, but I want pitching.....I want a staff like the early to mid 90's Atlanta Braves staff.

lidspinner
08-06-2009, 08:54 AM
funny sig. :rolleyes:

So would you trade joey votto for a zach stewart and a couple other no name prospects right now>?

so your comparing:

Votto to scott rolen?????

z.stewart to Edinson Volquez????

come on pal.....lets be mature and debate...thats what team message boards are for, I get that.....no need for everyone to sit around and stroke each other about how much we all love the Reds....BUT, we all still need to be rational. Stewart to Edinson is crazy because edinson had MLB experience and had success.....his head was the problem.....stewart has bedazzled minor league hitters and should help Toronto out in late 2010-into 2011...and that is a big IF.....just as EV was a big IF for us. It was a chance, we took a chance.....neither team is sitting around right now laughing at the other team because they got the better end of the deal....both teams are getting mediocre production from top level talent. It sounds to me like your infatuated with a guys ceiling rather than his actual production.

BlastFurnace
08-06-2009, 10:19 AM
What most of the people saying that Josh has regressed fail to realize is the injury he has come back from. He's not playing at 100% or anywhere near that right now. When he is back to driving in 120+ runs next year and Volquez is a shell of himself, you will change your minds.

BlastFurnace
08-06-2009, 10:22 AM
Not to mention, living right by Arlington, Texas, you get to hear what people out here think of the deal as well. No-one that I have heard on the radio shows or the fan base would take Volquez back for Hamilton. Volquez was terrible here. We had heard about him for years, but there was all smoke and no fire. Josh is only 28 years old and has a long career ahead of him.

bgwilly31
08-06-2009, 11:02 AM
so your comparing:

Votto to scott rolen?????

z.stewart to Edinson Volquez????

come on pal.....lets be mature and debate...thats what team message boards are for, I get that.....no need for everyone to sit around and stroke each other about how much we all love the Reds....BUT, we all still need to be rational. Stewart to Edinson is crazy because edinson had MLB experience and had success.....his head was the problem.....stewart has bedazzled minor league hitters and should help Toronto out in late 2010-into 2011...and that is a big IF.....just as EV was a big IF for us. It was a chance, we took a chance.....neither team is sitting around right now laughing at the other team because they got the better end of the deal....both teams are getting mediocre production from top level talent. It sounds to me like your infatuated with a guys ceiling rather than his actual production.


No im not making that comparison. And the trade is actually a whole lot different than the one hamilton/volquez trade.

I dont like the rolen trade near as much as i hate the hamilton trade because we were'nt getting rid of big salary. Now if hamilton was already gaurunteed 12mil the next year the trade might have made a bit more sense.

bgwilly31
08-06-2009, 11:05 AM
Not to mention, living right by Arlington, Texas, you get to hear what people out here think of the deal as well. No-one that I have heard on the radio shows or the fan base would take Volquez back for Hamilton. Volquez was terrible here. We had heard about him for years, but there was all smoke and no fire. Josh is only 28 years old and has a long career ahead of him.

I'm betting if we started this same poll on rangerszone it would be lopsided on the I love the trade and would still do it again! .

very little would even call it a wash.

And hardly any except relatives of volquez would say they hate it.


Now knowing that, Make sense of it. . . .

bigredbunter
08-06-2009, 11:41 AM
I can't see why anyone would change their opinion at this point.If you hated it you probably still do.Bruce has had a better season then Hamilton has and it seems to me that a lot of people think that Bruce has had a terrible season.Volquez and Hamilton has helped and hurt their teams equally depending on what year you want to talk about.

Hamilton certainly has a chance to preform well while Volquez is out and if he does the scale will tip in the Rangers favor.Until that happens I still say its a wash.

:thumbup:

I still think that both teams make this trade 8 days a week. Yeah, it would be great if the team had "future goggles"...At the time it met both teams needs in a spectacular way.

Lockdwn11
08-06-2009, 04:19 PM
What most of the people saying that Josh has regressed fail to realize is the injury he has come back from. He's not playing at 100% or anywhere near that right now. When he is back to driving in 120+ runs next year and Volquez is a shell of himself, you will change your minds.

No I think what you fail to realize is Josh more than likely will be dealing with these kind of injury problems I rest of his career because of the harm he did to his body in the past. This was known before the trade and played a big part of why the Reds where willing to part with Hamilton. So far they have been right.If you don't want to see that I can't help you but it is true.

lidspinner
08-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Not to mention, living right by Arlington, Texas, you get to hear what people out here think of the deal as well. No-one that I have heard on the radio shows or the fan base would take Volquez back for Hamilton. Volquez was terrible here. We had heard about him for years, but there was all smoke and no fire. Josh is only 28 years old and has a long career ahead of him.


its funny you mention that in the same week that Peter Gammons said the Rangers brass was missing a good starting pitcher and could sure use Edinson...of course he then mentioned that EV was injured so that would not work out anyhow........the bottom line is this....we will re-visit this in a few years and see who got the best of the trade.....as it looks right now, both teams traded junk for junk.....I am comparing stats, not talent

BLEEDS
08-06-2009, 06:23 PM
I have no idea what this thread is about...

Do you want a pitcher who just got TommyJohn surgery, or a recovering drug addict CF-er coming back from the DL for the 15th time who's OPS-ing under .600 ?!?!

It was a good trade to make at the time. We had plenty of offense and nothing for pitching. Just because they both didn't work out doesn't mean it was a bad trade.

They were both all-stars the first year, they are both broken this year.
Call it a wash.

If you want hindsight 20/20, you're always right. Trades don't work that way.

PEACE

-BLEEDS