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View Full Version : Is Dick Pole Pushing A Two Seamer?



Superdude
08-04-2009, 08:21 PM
Brantley was on the pre game show tonight and was talking rather candidly about Cueto. He was basically saying that Cueto was dabbling way too much with a two seam fastball this year when he's much more successful just throwing the four seamer. I've heard him say the same thing about Harang on the radio. I don't know a whole lot about pitching and honestly can't tell the difference between the two varieties of pitches. The only thing I know is that Cueto's average fastball velocity has tailed off a bit this year and his K rate has taken even more of a dive. I'm sure there's someone on here who knows a thing or two about pitching and can answer this question: Has Cueto been throwing more two seamers this year, and do you agree with Brantley that he and Harang are better off cutting loose four seamers?

RedEye
08-04-2009, 09:24 PM
I think more good Dick Pole thread titles is exactly what this forum needs. What an untapped resource!

Sorry, don't know much about two-seamers though.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 09:59 PM
Brantley's lobbying for the pitching coach gig, IMO.

guttle11
08-04-2009, 10:19 PM
Brantley's lobbying for the pitching coach gig, IMO.

Give it to him yesterday. He knows pitching and pitching mechanics, and will force guys to throw the ball inside.

Chip R
08-04-2009, 10:29 PM
Give it to him yesterday. He knows pitching and pitching mechanics, and will force guys to throw the ball inside.


Talking a good game and actually executing your philosophy are 2 different things. I hope he gets it so I don't have to listen to him any more.

jojo
08-04-2009, 10:32 PM
The four seam and two seam fastballs get their name from the way the pitcher grips the ball. Obviously, the grip effects the rotation of the pitch (which in turn effects movement).

A four seam fastball generally has more velocity and less vertical movement (it actually appears to rise but that's an illusion due to the fact that a four seamer doesn't sink as much as other pitches). A really good four seamer will appear to "pop" across the strikezone (described as having "second stage" velocity) and it should tail or veer into a same handed hitter as it passes through the strikezone as well (i.e. generally little vertical movement but horizontal movement into the same-handed batter). It's the fastball that is meant to challenge the hitter's reflexes and thus miss bats. However, since four seamers don't have vertical movement (i.e. sink) they can be up in the zone and as anyone who has ever tried to hit a ball far will attest, its easier to hit a homer on a ball up. So the trade off is more flyballs and thus more homers.

A two seam fastball generally has less velocity but much more movement (generally sink). It's purpose isn't to miss bats but rather to induce grounders (think Brandon Webb). The trade off is more contact in favor of less homers. In other words, the strategy is use the defense more. However, grounders also tend to end of being hits more often than flyballs do....

Finally, and perhaps counter intuitively to someone who has never pitched, two-seam fastballs are generally easier to command than four seamers.

Life is a trade off....

nate
08-04-2009, 10:36 PM
Life is a trade off....

Also a highway.

GADawg
08-04-2009, 11:43 PM
I think Dick Pole has been smokin' a two seamer....while we're talking about coaches how does Brook Jacoby keep his job?

Nasty_Boy
08-04-2009, 11:53 PM
Brantley's lobbying for the pitching coach gig, IMO.

+1

That's exactly what I've been thinking with all of his mechanical breakdowns and "gameplan" talk lately.

15fan
08-05-2009, 12:06 AM
Why stop with making Brantley the pitching coach?

Make Marty the manager, too.

We'd get both of them off the air, and with the two of them in charge from the dugout, the Reds would be no worse than 160-2 each year.

GADawg
08-05-2009, 12:10 AM
Why stop with making Brantley the pitching coach?

Make Marty the manager, too.

We'd get both of them off the air, and with the two of them in charge from the dugout, the Reds would be no worse than 160-2 each year.

Please can Grande coach first or something?

Highlifeman21
08-05-2009, 12:11 AM
Also a highway.

So you're sayin' you wanna ride it all night long?

Chip R
08-05-2009, 12:22 AM
Please can Grande coach first or something?


"Hi, hello and welcome to 1st base. Hey, Carlos Zambrano's pitching and you know his story. Try not to get picked off so you can scamper to 2nd."

BCubb2003
08-05-2009, 12:25 AM
Also a highway.

A highway that's like a box of chocolates.

TheNext44
08-05-2009, 12:33 AM
Speaking of pitching coaches, what ever happened to Don Gullett and Leo Mazzone?

Gullett was wrongly blamed for the Reds lack of pitching talent, and was a great pitching coach.
Mazzone might be a hall of fame pitching coach.

Why are they not in the majors right now, and why have the Reds not tried to hire them?

RBA
08-05-2009, 12:43 AM
I thought the thread was about whether Dick Pole is constipated.

Superdude
08-05-2009, 02:16 AM
"Hi, hello and welcome to 1st base. Hey, Carlos Zambrano's pitching and you know his story. Try not to get picked off so you can scamper to 2nd."


:D that made me laugh

Topcat
08-05-2009, 06:55 AM
Fire Pole and Jacoby and actually spend some serious $$$$ on top notch coaches for hitting and pitching. I would gladly pay Taveras $$$$ for top notch guys in those positions.

membengal
08-05-2009, 07:34 AM
Brantley's lobbying for the pitching coach gig, IMO.

I am cool with that. I want Dick Pole sent to the north pole. Run up a pole. Pole-axed.

Gone.

And I think Brantley would be good.

redsmetz
08-05-2009, 08:10 AM
The four seam and two seam fastballs get their name from the way the pitcher grips the ball. Obviously, the grip effects the rotation of the pitch (which in turn effects movement).

A four seam fastball generally has more velocity and less vertical movement (it actually appears to rise but that's an illusion due to the fact that a four seamer doesn't sink as much as other pitches). A really good four seamer will appear to "pop" across the strikezone (described as having "second stage" velocity) and it should tail or veer into a same handed hitter as it passes through the strikezone as well (i.e. generally little vertical movement but horizontal movement into the same-handed batter). It's the fastball that is meant to challenge the hitter's reflexes and thus miss bats. However, since four seamers don't have vertical movement (i.e. sink) they can be up in the zone and as anyone who has ever tried to hit a ball far will attest, its easier to hit a homer on a ball up. So the trade off is more flyballs and thus more homers.

A two seam fastball generally has less velocity but much more movement (generally sink). It's purpose isn't to miss bats but rather to induce grounders (think Brandon Webb). The trade off is more contact in favor of less homers. In other words, the strategy is use the defense more. However, grounders also tend to end of being hits more often than flyballs do....

Finally, and perhaps counter intuitively to someone who has never pitched, two-seam fastballs are generally easier to command than four seamers.

Life is a trade off....

So, Chip, what is that Brantley thinks he's seeing that he would believe is a problem with Cueto and Harang? Perhaps he's just gassing because he has to fill air time. I understand that's a possibility. But what effect is it having "in game" - perhaps they're still trying to master it?

Thanks for the good explanation in the difference between the two pitches.

Strikes Out Looking
08-05-2009, 08:56 AM
Bottom line--no one could really be worse than the coaches the Reds currently have.

Spitball
08-05-2009, 01:46 PM
I see nothing wrong with Harang, Cueto, and others on the staff learning the two-seamer. I've noticed it is a pitch that Dave Duncan typically adds to one of his projects. I would not want to see the staff reinvented, but the pitch is a valuable weapon.

The two seamer is basically a sinker. There are other ways to throw a pitch that sinks, but the two-seamer is your basic sinker. Some move their fingers closer together but the two-seamer is a sinker. I like the pitch, particularly with Rolen replacing Encarnacion in the infield.

Bumstead
08-05-2009, 04:37 PM
I think more good Dick Pole thread titles is exactly what this forum needs. What an untapped resource!

Sorry, don't know much about two-seamers though.

You know, here in Chicago they refer to him as "Big" Dick Pole...I'm just sayin'...:p:

KronoRed
08-05-2009, 04:40 PM
Bottom line--no one could really be worse than the coaches the Reds currently have.

Don Gullet was worse, I also feel pretty comfortable saying Brantley would also be worse.

Hitting coach? well you need more then one hitter first :D

Chip R
08-05-2009, 05:06 PM
So, Chip, what is that Brantley thinks he's seeing that he would believe is a problem with Cueto and Harang? Perhaps he's just gassing because he has to fill air time. I understand that's a possibility. But what effect is it having "in game" - perhaps they're still trying to master it?


Does it really matter what he's saying? If he's talking to the Reds brass and telling them that he thinks that if he were pitching coach he'd do this and that to fix them. The brass thinks that he's not as stupid as he sounds and at the end of the year, the Cowboy's back in the saddle again as Dusty's pitching coach.

I might be totally wrong and Brantley doesn't have any desire to be back on the field but the uniform has a strong pull - even just being a coach.

Eric_the_Red
08-05-2009, 05:23 PM
"Hi, hello and welcome to 1st base. Hey, Carlos Zambrano's pitching and you know his story. Try not to get picked off so you can scamper to 2nd."

One of the funniest posts I've come across on RZ. Well done! :laugh:

GAC
08-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Talking a good game and actually executing your philosophy are 2 different things. I hope he gets it so I don't have to listen to him any more.

That wouldn't shut up the Cowboy! :p:

But you're right - talking and execution (getting your pitchers to do so) are two different things.

And you can't always hang it on your pitching coach.

And people complain that Pole is asleep during the games. So are 3/4 of the fans.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:14 PM
And people complain that Pole is asleep during the games. So are 3/4 of the fans.


With this offense, can you blame them?