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RedLegSuperStar
08-04-2009, 10:58 PM
John Fays Latest -


The Reds didn’t move Todd Frazier to second base as a prelude to moving Brandon Phillips to shortstop. But Walt Jocketty didn’t dismiss the idea.


“The reason we moved Frazier – we probably should have done it earlier – was with (Juan) Francisco at third and (Zack) Cozart at shortstop, we wanted to see if (Frazier) could play second. We know he can play the outfield, third and short.


“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”


It’s a safe bet that the Reds won’t pick up Alex Gonzalez’s option for next year. Phillips came up at shortstop. He’s been open in the past to shift back.


Also from Jocketty:


--It sounds like the Reds are getting more money in the Scott Rolen deal than previously reported. “We got cash considerations that the make it more tolerable to take on Scott’s contract,” Jocketty said. “There’s also an offset on his contract.”


Jocketty would not say how much. I’ve been told they got $3 million for this year and $3 million for next. The St. Louis Cardinals are also paying a $4 million signing bonus that is due in 2010.


--On Drew Stubbs: “He’ll be here before the end of the year,” Jocketty kidded.


But he added: “What he’s done lately has not gone unnoticed.”


Stubbs is hitting .306 with a .375 on-base percentage since the All-Star Break. He’s leads the International League in steals – 42 in 47 tries.


--How will Edinson Volquez’s injury affect the offseason plans? “I guess we’re going to have to take a different approach,” he said. “We thought we were pretty well set. We have some guys in the organization to look at. A trade is a possibility.


--On the possibility Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo being moved? “I’m not soliciting offers. We’ll see how it all fits.”


The Reds owe six players $57.25 million for 2010 -- Francisco Cordero ($12 million), Harang ($12.5 million), Arroyo ($11 million), Rolen ($11 million, I'm counting it as that until they tell me what it actually), Phillips ($6.75 million) and Willy Taveras ($4 million) salary. That leaves them with little payroll flexibility -- unless they trade Harang or Arroyo.

I would actually be happy with this potential roster for 2010:

C - Hanigan
1st - Votto
2nd - Frazier
SS - Phillips
3rd - Rolen
RF - Bruce
CF - Stubbs
LF - Dickerson

Now granted if high price pieces are moved between now and then might help add some firepower to this line-up. I actually would rather see one or both of Arroyo or Coco. Why Coco? I think Fisher now with Roenicke gone would be a solid Closer. Bray should be healthy next season and hopefully Burton is more of 08 then 09. We'll say bye to Stormy. This bullpen should be still solid. You might not have that electric automatic closer.. but you have a guy who could get the job done. His salary will allow you to make up for his flaws. Arroyo is Arroyo. He has a man crush on Boston and frankly I speak for everyone when I say we are tired of the rants every year. He is a innings eater but that is about it.. he is going to give you 10-15 really steller starts and then he is going to give you about 15-20 horrific starts.. He isn't overpowering and he gets by. Harang on the other hand IMO would probably have a better record had he gotten more run support and granted he has been a shell of his 07 self.. but I think he is capable of regaining that status. I think Arroyo could be replaced with Harden, Bedard, or Penny.

Homer Bailey
08-04-2009, 11:03 PM
Weird. I like what I'm hearing from Jocketty.

alloverjr
08-04-2009, 11:15 PM
“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”

I find it impossible that it's never been discussed. I hope this was simply polite respect to Gonzalez who is still on the team. Otherwise, good lord.

klw
08-04-2009, 11:21 PM
Does "moving" mean "trading" or "changing positions" or either?

westofyou
08-04-2009, 11:25 PM
Nice diversion conversation, the artful dodger could pick many a pocket as we read Walt's musings.

Selling the future is the only currency the Reds have right now.

redsfandan
08-05-2009, 01:10 AM
“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”

I find it impossible that it's never been discussed. I hope this was simply polite respect to Gonzalez who is still on the team. Otherwise, good lord.
It's possible that it may have been mentioned only in passing but not with people sitting down to seriously consider the pros and cons. Remember we had AGon on the roster the last few years and, even though he's been injured ALOT, they may not have wanted to experiment with moving Phillips back to short unless it could be a permanent move. Before Agon we had Felipe Lopez at short and before him Larkin. So this may be the first time in a long time that short has been such a BIG question mark. Well, at least since the '06/'07 offseason and we all know who they decided on for short at that time. Who knew he would miss THIS much time?

Does "moving" mean "trading" or "changing positions" or either?
If you mean in relation to Brandon Phillips I took it to mean only the possibility of him moving positions. His contract is through 2012 and I think they'll keep him here for at least a couple more reasons.

WVRedsFan
08-05-2009, 01:41 AM
Sounds like they actually have a plan which is encouraging. I think the Volquez injury, the inability of Homer to break out and Cueto's meltdown surpirsed them. They were also surprised by Harang's decline and Bronson's inconsistency. My guess is that Arroyo will be on the block and Harang will stay.

It's good news that Gonzalez just might not be offered a contract and that they are considering (somewhat) moving Phillips to short--maybe the only answer since there is o good option at short at present. The outfield is a problem, but if Stubbs comes along and Bruce comes back strong, they'll deal for a power hitting outfielder, giving us some offense.

There is hope if there are changes and that means moving Taveras to the bench, DFA-ing Nix and Gomes (or trading them), and finding a starter. Big job.

Walt has a good record of removing Wayne's mistakes (Freel, Ross, etc), getting rid of his own mistakes (Hairston) and finding a genuine major leaguer (Rolen), but we'll see how he deals with his other mistakes (Weathers, Lincoln, Taveras, Owings).

redsfandan
08-05-2009, 02:06 AM
It's good news that Gonzalez just might not be offered a contract and that they are considering (somewhat) moving Phillips to short--maybe the only answer since there is o good option at short at present. The outfield is a problem, but if Stubbs comes along and Bruce comes back strong, they'll deal for a power hitting outfielder, giving us some offense.
This is all Walt said on moving BP to short:

“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”
Typically vague. Maybe they are considering moving him to short but that's not much to go on to make that assumption. Same with Frazier seeing some time at 2nd in the minors. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Unless we have more than that, or BP sees some time at short in the last 50+ games, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.

mth123
08-05-2009, 04:04 AM
I think this is more about making Frazier a supersub. His bat may be a little light for LF or 1B and his glove probably isn't good enough to play day in and day out at 2B or SS. Not sure about 3B with him. If he could be a 450 AB multi-position guy, it would actually mean the team would have a decent bench and that there must be guys playing in front of him that can actually play.

Ron Madden
08-05-2009, 04:44 AM
Walt says they might take a different approach.

I certainly hope so.

redsmetz
08-05-2009, 05:49 AM
“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”

I find it impossible that it's never been discussed. I hope this was simply polite respect to Gonzalez who is still on the team. Otherwise, good lord.

I thought that too, but wondered whether what he was saying was that it had never been discussed to move Frazier to second and Phillips to SS - that's what had never been discussed. I can't imagine that thought of moving Phillips back to SS itself has never been discussed.

Roy Tucker
08-05-2009, 08:06 AM
Nice diversion conversation, the artful dodger could pick many a pocket as we read Walt's musings.

Selling the future is the only currency the Reds have right now.

Maybe Walt read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

RedlegJake
08-05-2009, 08:54 AM
Maybe Walt read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

They're doing a bang up job of feigning disorder, then.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 09:08 AM
I think this is more about making Frazier a supersub. His bat may be a little light for LF or 1B and his glove probably isn't good enough to play day in and day out at 2B or SS. Not sure about 3B with him. If he could be a 450 AB multi-position guy, it would actually mean the team would have a decent bench and that there must be guys playing in front of him that can actually play.


Gee, that's wonderful. One of our best prospects in the minors is projected to be a super-sub. That says a lot about the farm system. What's next, our best pitching prospect is a middle reliever?

HokieRed
08-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Maybe Walt read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."


As in, "We just gave in," acquiring a Hall of Famer while ridding ourselves of a player without a position, a relief pitcher, and a guy with a few innings above AA.

Edd Roush
08-05-2009, 09:22 AM
John Fays Latest -



I would actually be happy with this potential roster for 2010:

C - Hanigan
1st - Votto
2nd - Frazier
SS - Phillips
3rd - Rolen
RF - Bruce
CF - Stubbs
LF - Dickerson

Now granted if high price pieces are moved between now and then might help add some firepower to this line-up. I actually would rather see one or both of Arroyo or Coco. Why Coco? I think Fisher now with Roenicke gone would be a solid Closer. Bray should be healthy next season and hopefully Burton is more of 08 then 09. We'll say bye to Stormy. This bullpen should be still solid. You might not have that electric automatic closer.. but you have a guy who could get the job done. His salary will allow you to make up for his flaws. Arroyo is Arroyo. He has a man crush on Boston and frankly I speak for everyone when I say we are tired of the rants every year. He is a innings eater but that is about it.. he is going to give you 10-15 really steller starts and then he is going to give you about 15-20 horrific starts.. He isn't overpowering and he gets by. Harang on the other hand IMO would probably have a better record had he gotten more run support and granted he has been a shell of his 07 self.. but I think he is capable of regaining that status. I think Arroyo could be replaced with Harden, Bedard, or Penny.

Not offense in that proposed outfield. I don't think CDick will ever hit well enough to play a corner outfield spot. We need a masher like Dye to play a corner outfield spot. His defense would not hurt us that much considering we would have "the best defensive centerfielder in the minors" playing center and a plus defensive outfielder in right with Jay Bruce.

Give me a line-up of:

Hanigan
Phillips
Votto
Dye
Rolen
Bruce
Frazier
Stubbs
P

I'll watch that team. If Stubbs keeps his OBP within 20 points of Hanigan and I'll let him lead-off.

RedLegSuperStar
08-05-2009, 10:26 AM
Not offense in that proposed outfield. I don't think CDick will ever hit well enough to play a corner outfield spot. We need a masher like Dye to play a corner outfield spot. His defense would not hurt us that much considering we would have "the best defensive centerfielder in the minors" playing center and a plus defensive outfielder in right with Jay Bruce.

Give me a line-up of:

Hanigan
Phillips
Votto
Dye
Rolen
Bruce
Frazier
Stubbs
P

I'll watch that team. If Stubbs keeps his OBP within 20 points of Hanigan and I'll let him lead-off.

My roster wasn't based yet on Free Agency .. I wouldn't mine Dye though

IslandRed
08-05-2009, 10:33 AM
I think this is more about making Frazier a supersub. His bat may be a little light for LF or 1B and his glove probably isn't good enough to play day in and day out at 2B or SS. Not sure about 3B with him. If he could be a 450 AB multi-position guy, it would actually mean the team would have a decent bench and that there must be guys playing in front of him that can actually play.

I don't get it as a super-sub thing at all. I think they still look at him as an everyday player, they're just trying to figure out where he best fits into the puzzle, given that he can play multiple positions competently but is not truly exceptional at any.

RedLegSuperStar
08-05-2009, 04:50 PM
If Frazier is touted for super sub-dom then why not have him on the 40 over Drew Sutton? Frazier is going to be an every day player.. I have no doubt about it.

TheNext44
08-05-2009, 05:25 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a67afcd24-2877-442b-9af0-89691cdbb1d4&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com



Posted by JohnFay at 8/5/2009 4:52 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com
Brandon Phillips is up for a move to shortstop.

"I'll do whatever the Reds want me to do," he said. "I'll play outfield, shortstop."

Phillips came up as shortstop. He won the Gold Glove at second base last year.

The reason it's being discussed is shortstop Alex Gonzalez's contract is up. The Reds hold an option that they almost surely will not pick up. The Reds have been playing Todd Frazier, their No. 2 prospect, at second base lately. Frazier's move there was unrelated to Phillips, Walt Jocketty said. But even if the Reds decide to go the free agent route, a free agent second baseman would be less expensive than a shortstop. And the shortstop free agent class for 2010 is weak.

"No one's said anything to me," Phillips said. "But I'll do whatever makes the team better."

This really would be smart for the Reds on so many levels.

Brutus
08-05-2009, 05:35 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a67afcd24-2877-442b-9af0-89691cdbb1d4&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com



This really would be smart for the Reds on so many levels.

x2

This would solve a lot of problems for next year, both in talent and payroll. Assuming Stubbs has the lead (off) on center field (excuse the pun), this leaves maybe only LF to address by way of free agency. The rest of the resources could be allocated to pitching.

paulrichjr
08-05-2009, 05:43 PM
Not offense in that proposed outfield. I don't think CDick will ever hit well enough to play a corner outfield spot. We need a masher like Dye to play a corner outfield spot. His defense would not hurt us that much considering we would have "the best defensive centerfielder in the minors" playing center and a plus defensive outfielder in right with Jay Bruce.

Give me a line-up of:

Hanigan
Phillips
Votto
Dye
Rolen
Bruce
Frazier
Stubbs
P

I'll watch that team. If Stubbs keeps his OBP within 20 points of Hanigan and I'll let him lead-off.

Dude you surely know the rule that only CFs can bat leadoff and catchers cannot bat over 4th in the lineup. How much baseball do you watch anyway?

kaldaniels
08-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Does anyone believe the statement by Walt that Fraizer's move to 2nd was unrelated to BP at SS? I don't.

GAC
08-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Nice diversion conversation, the artful dodger could pick many a pocket as we read Walt's musings.

Selling the future is the only currency the Reds have right now.

Yep.

Unless this FO is still going to keep asking the fans to get in their Idiot mobiles and take another drive down Patience Ave hoping it doesn't turn into a dead end street. ;)

MississippiRed
08-05-2009, 05:54 PM
x2

This would solve a lot of problems for next year, both in talent and payroll. Assuming Stubbs has the lead (off) on center field (excuse the pun), this leaves maybe only LF to address by way of free agency. The rest of the resources could be allocated to pitching.

Or they could sign Orlando Hudson and use Frazier for when Rolen goes on the DL.;)

GAC
08-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Maybe Walt read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

I think that strategy was used at Little Big Horn too. ;)

Degenerate39
08-05-2009, 06:00 PM
C- Hanigan
1st- Votto
2nd- Frazier
SS- Phillips?
3rd- Rolen
LF- Jason Bay
CF- Stubbs
RF- Bruce

Bench:
Heisey OF
Dickerson OF
Tatum? C
Rosales IF
Owings PH/P

Rotation:
Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Owings

Bullpen:
Cordero
Masset
Burton
Bray
Fisher
Herrera
Ramirez
LeCure?

GAC
08-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Gee, that's wonderful. One of our best prospects in the minors is projected to be a super-sub. That says a lot about the farm system. What's next, our best pitching prospect is a middle reliever?

Sure - one never knows with prospects; but from what I've read on Frazier, this kid is not projected to simply be a super-sub.

Besides - the Reds don't have, nor believe in super-subs. You're either in the minors or you're a starter on the ML level. There is no in-between with this team. :p:

Benihana
08-05-2009, 06:08 PM
I think this is more about making Frazier a supersub. His bat may be a little light for LF or 1B and his glove probably isn't good enough to play day in and day out at 2B or SS. Not sure about 3B with him. If he could be a 450 AB multi-position guy, it would actually mean the team would have a decent bench and that there must be guys playing in front of him that can actually play.

I don't think so. I think they moved him off 3B because they figure Rolen will play 3B for the next couple years (they will extend him IMO.)

Frazier should be ready to play full time at some point next season. That leaves LF, SS, and 2B as his options. LF is still a possibility, but between Heisey, Balentien and the players outside the organization that are available (Vlad, Magglio, Dye, etc.) they may be considering other options at the moment. Which leaves SS and 2B- Bob Miller said this week that "Frazier can play SS." While I don't know if anyone really believes that, I think even the delusional Reds can see that they'd be better off with BP at SS and Frazier at 2B than the other way around. Thus, Todd Frazier may just be the 2B of the future. Worst case, he's Todd Walker. Best case, he's Jeff Kent. I'll take that.

Now they must upgrade LF and the starting rotation. There are PLENTY of options hitting the FA market that will be there, as long as they can unload Arroyo and/or Harang:

LF

Jason Bay
Matt Holliday
Jermaine Dye
Vladimir Guerrero
Magglio Ordonez

SP

Brandon Webb
Rich Harden
John Lackey
Erik Bedard
Doug Davis

If the Reds actually follow this plan and sign one from each category, they may be on to something. But we all know that won't happen.

Kc61
08-05-2009, 06:12 PM
Frazier has played a few games at second. I doubt he will be ready to start next year as the Reds' second baseman. He hasn't been to AAA yet - at any position.

If the Reds move Phillips to short, they will get a stop gap second baseman until Frazier is ready. One potential free agent who wouldn't be a bad choice is -- Felipe Lopez. He can hit first or second and defensively he is better as a second baseman. Switch hitter.

If they get Lopez back and he does well, the Reds then win the Kearns/Majewski trade.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 06:13 PM
Sure - one never knows with prospects; but from what I've read on Frazier, this kid is not projected to simply be a super-sub.

Besides - the Reds don't have, nor believe in super-subs. You're either in the minors or you're a starter on the ML level. There is no in-between with this team. :p:


And Jay Bruce was supposed to be on his way to superstardom.

The Reds and their fans love supersubs. Chris Stynes ring a bell? How about Ryan Freel? Jeff Keppinger, anyone? Jerry Hairston, Jr. was supposed to be our good luck charm this year.

TheNext44
08-05-2009, 06:16 PM
Frazier has played a few games at second. I doubt he will be ready to start next year as the Reds' second baseman. He hasn't been to AAA yet - at any position.

If the Reds move Phillips to short, they will get a stop gap second baseman until Frazier is ready. One potential free agent who wouldn't be a bad choice is -- Felipe Lopez. He can hit first or second and defensively he is better as a second baseman. Switch hitter.

If they get Lopez back and he does well, the Reds then win the Kearns/Majewski trade.

Which would be poetic, since in 2005, there was talk of having Phillips be the SS and Lopez the 2B in 2006. That was before the trade.

So just like getting Rolen 4 years too late, the Reds would get their DP combo 4 years too late.

westofyou
08-05-2009, 06:22 PM
And Jay Bruce was supposed to be on his way to superstardom.

The Reds and their fans love supersubs. Chris Stynes ring a bell? How about Ryan Freel? Jeff Keppinger, anyone? Jerry Hairston, Jr. was supposed to be our good luck charm this year.

Bruce is much too young to write off, despite FCB's insistance that we do.

As for the super subs listed note the common denominator... they all came to the Reds from other organizations.

Teams don't develop those guys per se, instead they end up being forced to use guys in other positions due to lack of an across the board skillsets or they are forced into it by injury.

If the Reds see him as a guy with no position then I would bet they move him out of the organization before they say.. here young stud be our Tony Phillips, it just seems to work that way more often than not.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:08 PM
Bruce is much too young to write off, despite FCB's insistance that we do.

Oh, I'm not giving up on him. I'm just saying that this year he didn't meet te lofty expectations they had for him.




As for the super subs listed note the common denominator... they all came to the Reds from other organizations.

Teams don't develop those guys per se, instead they end up being forced to use guys in other positions due to lack of an across the board skillsets or they are forced into it by injury.

If the Reds see him as a guy with no position then I would bet they move him out of the organization before they say.. here young stud be our Tony Phillips, it just seems to work that way more often than not.


And that's what I'm saying. Nobody develops a player in the minors to be a utility player. But that's what they seem to be doing with Frazier. They start him at short and move him to 3rd. That's not unusual. He may not have the glove to play short. Then they move him to 1st then left now 2nd. Why can't they pick a position for him and have him learn to play that position so if he does make it to the majors, he doesn't have to do on the job training to learn it. I've never seen him play but it seems to me that they either think his defense isn't that good or they think his ceiling is as a utility player. I agre that if they feel that he's a utility player, he's going to be gone. Then RedsZone will have a nice cry. ;)

Falls City Beer
08-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Bruce is much too young to write off, despite FCB's insistance that we do.

As for the super subs listed note the common denominator... they all came to the Reds from other organizations.

Teams don't develop those guys per se, instead they end up being forced to use guys in other positions due to lack of an across the board skillsets or they are forced into it by injury.

If the Reds see him as a guy with no position then I would bet they move him out of the organization before they say.. here young stud be our Tony Phillips, it just seems to work that way more often than not.

Not saying he should be written off. I'm saying the expectations should be lowered.

Which is to say, put a hitter in front of him on the depth chart. I was wrong; he was promoted way too soon.

pedro
08-05-2009, 07:35 PM
Oh, I'm not giving up on him. I'm just saying that this year he didn't meet te lofty expectations they had for him.





And that's what I'm saying. Nobody develops a player in the minors to be a utility player. But that's what they seem to be doing with Frazier. They start him at short and move him to 3rd. That's not unusual. He may not have the glove to play short. Then they move him to 1st then left now 2nd. Why can't they pick a position for him and have him learn to play that position so if he does make it to the majors, he doesn't have to do on the job training to learn it. I've never seen him play but it seems to me that they either think his defense isn't that good or they think his ceiling is as a utility player. I agre that if they feel that he's a utility player, he's going to be gone. Then RedsZone will have a nice cry. ;)

I think it has more to do with finding a place where his bat makes sense. His bat profiles better as a second baseman that it does on a corner.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:42 PM
I think it has more to do with finding a place where his bat makes sense. His bat profiles better as a second baseman that it does on a corner.

They are running out of places for his bat. Perhaps DH is in his future.

pedro
08-05-2009, 07:50 PM
They are running out of places for his bat. Perhaps DH is in his future.

He doesn't hit well enough to DH.

Basically second base is his last chance to be a starter in the majors IMO.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:55 PM
He doesn't hit well enough to DH.

Basically second base is his last chance to be a starter in the majors IMO.

I was under the impression that his bat isn't the problem.

pedro
08-05-2009, 07:56 PM
I was under the impression that his bat isn't the problem.

mid 800 OPS. 12 dingers. Doesn't seem to be a monster.

GAC
08-05-2009, 07:58 PM
And Jay Bruce was supposed to be on his way to superstardom.

The Reds and their fans love supersubs. Chris Stynes ring a bell? How about Ryan Freel? Jeff Keppinger, anyone? Jerry Hairston, Jr. was supposed to be our good luck charm this year.

I hear ya! I got a supervisor at work that still laments the loss of Farney.

But I don't care what the fickled fans think, in that sense. It's when a fickled FO thinks the same and actually acquires/plays these guys.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:59 PM
mid 800 OPS. 12 dingers. Doesn't seem to be a monster.

So why futz around with him at left and 1st and 3rd? He could have been playing 2nd for a couple years now.

pedro
08-05-2009, 08:15 PM
So why futz around with him at left and 1st and 3rd? He could have been playing 2nd for a couple years now.

I think they thought his bat would develop more. It hasn't.

mth123
08-06-2009, 01:08 AM
If the expectations are him becoming Jeff Kent, then the expectations are not realistic. If the expectations are him becoming Todd Walker, then deal him.

BRM
08-06-2009, 09:45 AM
To be fair, Todd also has a Southern League leading 36 doubles. He doesn't exactly lack power. He's not a HR hitting monster though, I agree.

Degenerate39
08-06-2009, 09:55 AM
To be fair, Todd also has a Southern League leading 36 doubles. He doesn't exactly lack power. He's not a HR hitting monster though, I agree.

The GABP effect will help with his power though.

pahster
08-06-2009, 10:10 AM
To be fair, Todd also has a Southern League leading 36 doubles. He doesn't exactly lack power. He's not a HR hitting monster though, I agree.

Some of those doubles are going to start turning into HRs as he gains experience. If he can handle 2B defensively, his bat will play phenomenally well there. Take a look at the MLB average OBPs and SLGs by position, pedro.

2009 MLB averages: OBP/SLG

1B: .361/.481
2B: .334/.416
3B: .337/.425
SS: .324/.391
LF: .341/.435
RF: .343/.440

Frazier's bat profiles well at every position he's played in the minors, although it appears he'd be average at best at first base. No matter, though, as Votto already has that covered. His likely performance relative to MLB shortstops is probably irrelevant, as I do not believe he is capable of handling the position at the big league level. Still, his bat profiles as a definite plus at 2B and 3B and also likely in the corner outfield positions. Huge plus? Probably not. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with solidly above average offensive production coupled with at least average defense.

Eric_the_Red
08-06-2009, 11:20 AM
Some of those doubles are going to start turning into HRs as he gains experience. If he can handle 2B defensively, his bat will play phenomenally well there. Take a look at the MLB average OBPs and SLGs by position, pedro.

2009 MLB averages: OBP/SLG

1B: .361/.481
2B: .334/.416
3B: .337/.425
SS: .324/.391
LF: .341/.435
RF: .343/.440

Frazier's bat profiles well at every position he's played in the minors, although it appears he'd be average at best at first base. No matter, though, as Votto already has that covered. His likely performance relative to MLB shortstops is probably irrelevant, as I do not believe he is capable of handling the position at the big league level. Still, his bat profiles as a definite plus at 2B and 3B and also likely in the corner outfield positions. Huge plus? Probably not. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with solidly above average offensive production coupled with at least average defense.

Please edit your post. It is entirely too optimistic for these dark days on RZ. ;)

princeton
08-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Huge plus? Probably not.

huge plus offense as a catcher, I'll bet ;)

also, huge plus offense as a supersub...

BRM
08-06-2009, 11:42 AM
princeton is going to keep beating the Frazier to catcher drum until the Reds FO finally hears it. Can we put Francisco behind the plate as well?

kpresidente
08-06-2009, 12:17 PM
“It wasn’t done with idea of moving Brandon. That doesn’t mean that won’t happen. But it’s never been discussed.”

I find it impossible that it's never been discussed. I hope this was simply polite respect to Gonzalez who is still on the team. Otherwise, good lord.

He said last year they had discussed it. I think he might have used "considered" or "looked into."

princeton
08-06-2009, 12:20 PM
princeton is going to keep beating the Frazier to catcher drum until the Reds FO finally hears it.


they're heading that direction. four positional changes to go. for Todd, that should take only a couple of months.

nate
08-06-2009, 12:23 PM
they're heading that direction. four positional changes to go. for Todd, that should take only a couple of months.

Can he pitch too?

princeton
08-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Can he pitch too?


that's positional change 3. we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

Chip R
08-06-2009, 12:28 PM
Can he pitch too?


Who do you think he is, Jim Coombs?

nate
08-06-2009, 12:30 PM
that's positional change 3. we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

A couple of week? What, is he behind schedule or something?

nate
08-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Who do you think he is, Jim Coombs?

No, Chris Denorfia.

11larkin11
08-06-2009, 06:13 PM
Replace Gonzo's contract with Figgins, maybe add a couple mil (Gonzo made more the last 3 years). Trade Arroyo for prospects right now. Use his money and get Webb. That means gaining money, and if you want, add a LF with the money saved from not resigning some players.

Stubbs CF
Figgins 2B
Votto 1B
Phillips SS
Rolen 3B
Bruce RF
Gomes/Heisey/Balentien/Dickerson/FA LF
Hanigan C

Webb
Cueto
Harang
Bailey
Owings/Wood

Volquez at the ASB.

buckeyenut
08-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Walt has a good record of removing Wayne's mistakes (Freel, Ross, etc), getting rid of his own mistakes (Hairston) and finding a genuine major leaguer (Rolen), but we'll see how he deals with his other mistakes (Weathers, Lincoln, Taveras, Owings).Nobody else has challenged you on this one, but someone needs to. I can live with you chalking up Lincoln and Taveras as mistakes, but I wouldn't consider Weathers and Owings mistakes at all. Weathers has been better this year by far than either of the last two years and isn't making a lot of money. He wasn't even close to a mistake IMO and neither was Rhodes. Owings you could argue for being a mistake, but I would argue he has been what was expected, a 5th starter with a really nice bat. And I view him as a keeper for next year. Ideally, our rotation would be good enough to use him in the pen and as a pinch hitter. But for now, I'm happy with him as a 5th starter.

WVRedsFan
08-08-2009, 04:01 PM
Nobody else has challenged you on this one, but someone needs to. I can live with you chalking up Lincoln and Taveras as mistakes, but I wouldn't consider Weathers and Owings mistakes at all. Weathers has been better this year by far than either of the last two years and isn't making a lot of money. He wasn't even close to a mistake IMO and neither was Rhodes. Owings you could argue for being a mistake, but I would argue he has been what was expected, a 5th starter with a really nice bat. And I view him as a keeper for next year. Ideally, our rotation would be good enough to use him in the pen and as a pinch hitter. But for now, I'm happy with him as a 5th starter.

You don't need to challenge an opinion because that was what it was. Nothing more. Weathers is too inconsistent for me to even gamble $1 million on and that's I know standard operation for relief pitchers. He's done a fine job over the years, but the guy is pushing 40. I just do not think it was a good move, that's all.

As for Owings, I just do not feel he is ever going to be a starter at the ML level. It's an opinion, but he doesn't have the head or the skills to be anything but a long reliever--3 innings max. His hitting has fallen off lately, too. Maybe we couldn't get much for Dunn, but it seems the haul wasn't up to what Adam Dunn brought the team. There are lots of guys in the minors who could give up 4 runs in 5-6 innings of work and I consider Owings in that group.

But it's just opinion, that's all.