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Edskin
08-04-2009, 11:08 PM
--Cry
--Quit
--Jump into the river

I root for three professional sports teams (Redskins, Reds, and Cleveland Cavs). Combined, these franchises have all provided much more heartache than glory over the past 20 years or so, with the arrival of Lebron really being the only thing from keeping me at rock bottom.

So, please keep that in mind with what I'm about to say:

NEVER, EVER, in my ENTIRE LIFE have I EVER been as hopeless about ANY of my teams as I am with the Reds right now.

I really just want to cry. I've evolved from frustration and anger to sadness and utter bewilderment.

One saving grace as a die-hard sports fan is that you always have hope. If you fancy yourself knowledgeable within the game (as most of us around here do), you can always come up with those moves that will vault your team back into contention. Normally, even in the darkest of Reds seasons, I can find a handful of things I'd like to build around, and I can come up with an outline of how to get us back on track. Then, I hope the front office sees the same thing.

But right now, I have NO idea what they should do.

The roster is AWFUL. So much worse than I thought it was. The implosion of what looked to be a promising rotation is beyond depressing.

We can't count on ONE of those guys to be a solid frontline starter for us in the future. Not one.

Harang is proving to be a solid 4th starter, nothing more. Arroyo is a good 5th starter. Cueto still has some upside, but right now, he's an average starting pitcher at best. Owings is horrible. Volquez should no longer be considered part of the organization. The Reds should treat him (in terms of his place in the building process) as if he does not exist. Anything we get from down the road will be a plus. I have a hard time seeing Homer succeeding with the Reds.

So, looking ahead to 2010 and beyond, we have a grand total of ZERO starting pitchers that excite me, with Cueto and Homer still providing glimmers of hope.

And we all know how much work needs to be done offensively. We probably need 4 new starters if we're going to field a competitive offense next year-- and the next Gomes or Nix ain't gonna cut it.

The bullpen is fine, although beginning to lag. But I really don't consider the bullpen a "bright spot" considering three of the best arms there are old or ancient.

Votto, Phillips, Massett, Hanigan, Hererra.

Those are the 5 players I'm pretty comfortable with in terms of their roles for the Reds in the future-- and the latter three or more "role player" types.

I know Walt is working on the farm system, but the call-ups we've seen this year have been terrible, and his asinine signing of Taveras truly makes me question him. The Rolen trade is utter desperation.

I don't really "blame" anyone right now-- every owner, manager, and most players that have come through here in the past 10 years or so have a hand in this. Walt and Dusty just seem overwhelmed by the task at hand-- not sure either has the patience or skill at this point to get us back on track.

I just really have no idea what I want them to do. Hope is lost. I truly see no silver lining. It's awful.

If you put a gun to my head and asked me what to do, I think I'd try and trade Phillips, Bruce, and Votto-- no, I'm not kidding. I'd add in Cueto, Volquez, Harang, and Bailey too.

I'm starting to think that the Reds should go down a radical path of unloading EVERYONE in an effort to infuse the organization with 18-22 year old high-end prospects. Votto could land a king's ransom. Phillips could bring a bunch, and Cueto as well.

I really don't care one bit if we slip from a 73 win team to a 64 win team--makes no difference to me.

The question you have to ask yourself is this:

Do you see Votto/Phillips/Cueto being part of a winning team in Cincy?

I don't. No way will those guys be around when the rest of the team gets good-- and along the way, their careers will only be further damaged by losing night after night. This kind of ineptitude has a way of draining even the best players.

But in the end, almost nothing the Reds could do right now would excite me. They will literally need to add 2-3 starters who are ALL CLEARLY better than Cueto in the off-season to even really grab my attention. Not gonna happen unless we trade for Halladay and he brings along two clones.

For the first time, I really think we've rock bottom-- I can't think of how we'd get any lower.

15fan
08-05-2009, 11:58 AM
1982 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/1982.shtml)

The Braves won the West that year only 8 games over .500.

The Reds finished 28 games back.

How bad were the 1982 Reds?

Dan Driessen and Cesar Cedeno tied for the team lead in RBI with...57.

Two Reds hit double digits in home runs: Driessen with 17 and Bench with 13.

Mario Soto threw 257.2 innings with an ERA of 2.79, including 13 complete games, and you know what his record was? 14-13. 1 game over .500.

In the rabbit ball era, the 1982 Reds didn't exactly tear it up on the basepaths, either. Eddie Milner led the team with 18 SBs.

The only reason to look fondly back on 1982 is that Brad "The Animal" Leslie made his debut.

Otherwise, 1982 was as dark and miserable as any baseball season ever has been or ever will be.

pedro
08-05-2009, 12:02 PM
1982 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/1982.shtml)

The Braves won the West that year only 8 games over .500.

The Reds finished 28 games back.

How bad were the 1982 Reds?

Dan Driessen and Cesar Cedeno tied for the team lead in RBI with...57.

Two Reds hit double digits in home runs: Driessen with 17 and Bench with 13.

Mario Soto threw 257.2 innings with an ERA of 2.79, including 13 complete games, and you know what his record was? 14-13. 1 game over .500.

In the rabbit ball era, the 1982 Reds didn't exactly tear it up on the basepaths, either. Eddie Milner led the team with 18 SBs.

The only reason to look fondly back on 1982 is that Brad "The Animal" Leslie made his debut.

Otherwise, 1982 was as dark and miserable as any baseball season ever has been or ever will be.

Yeah, but they had Larry Biitner...Larry Biitner!

TRF
08-05-2009, 12:16 PM
Brad Lesley.

Remember him at the end of TWIB? During the closing credits? I believe he just struck out the side against Montreal, Raines, Oliver, and Dawson? Do I have that right?

ah 1982.

Kc61
08-05-2009, 12:21 PM
The current Reds could be good if they spent the money for three players. A power hitting left fielder. A shortstop who gets on base and can hit leadoff. A starting pitcher better than Arroyo.

SS
Phillips
Votto
LF
Bruce
Rolen
Dickerson/Stubbs
Hanigan/vet catcher

New good pitcher, Cueto, Harang, Bailey, fifth starter, say Travis Wood

With some luck -- say Burton comes back strong in the pen, say Bruce hits, say Bailey pitches, this is a real good team, at least for the NL Central.

They are not that far away but they need to be dedicated to winning and spend some money.

RedsBaron
08-05-2009, 12:28 PM
The current Reds could be good if they spent the money for three players. A power hitting left fielder. A shortstop who gets on base and can hit leadoff. A starting pitcher better than Arroyo.



All the Reds need to do is somehow add to their lineup "in-their-prime" Ted Williams (power hitting left fielder), Barry Larkin (shortstop who gets on base and can hit leadoff) and Greg Maddux (starting pitcher better than Arroyo). Unfortunately, Barry and Greg are retired and Ted is a bit dead.
The Reds would be better if they could add the players suggested by Kc61, but I'm not sure who is available to fit the bill, and I sure don't expect the Reds to do so.

Unassisted
08-05-2009, 12:28 PM
Sorry to nitpick here, but I must defend the memory of my all-time favorite Red. It's L-E-S-L-E-Y, Brad Lesley. :cool:

MikeS21
08-05-2009, 12:40 PM
The current Reds could be good if they spent the money for three players. A power hitting left fielder. A shortstop who gets on base and can hit leadoff. A starting pitcher better than Arroyo.

SS
Phillips
Votto
LF
Bruce
Rolen
Dickerson/Stubbs
Hanigan/vet catcher

New good pitcher, Cueto, Harang, Bailey, fifth starter, say Travis Wood

With some luck -- say Burton comes back strong in the pen, say Bruce hits, say Bailey pitches, this is a real good team, at least for the NL Central.

They are not that far away but they need to be dedicated to winning and spend some money.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure you will find five people who can agree who that LF, SS, and pitcher should be. And I don't think you can find five people who would agree on who to give up in order the land those players. One thing is certain, FA is NOT the way to fill those holes.

Kc61
08-05-2009, 01:36 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not sure you will find five people who can agree who that LF, SS, and pitcher should be. And I don't think you can find five people who would agree on who to give up in order the land those players. One thing is certain, FA is NOT the way to fill those holes.

If the Yankees or Red Sox needed those three pieces, they would fill them without any difficulty. I understand the financial limitations, and I know folks can disagree on the players. All I'm saying is that the team is fixable. There are some good pieces already in place.

I'm not suggesting any of this will happen. I rather doubt that it will.

And I disagree about free agency. You can get good free agents. But you have to compete for the good guys, not wait for the non-tenders usually.

redsmetz
08-05-2009, 01:49 PM
If the Yankees or Red Sox needed those three pieces, they would fill them without any difficulty. I understand the financial limitations, and I know folks can disagree on the players. All I'm saying is that the team is fixable. There are some good pieces already in place.

I'm not suggesting any of this will happen. I rather doubt that it will.

And I disagree about free agency. You can get good free agents. But you have to compete for the good guys, not wait for the non-tenders usually.

I agree. Folks like to mock Jocketty and Baker here saying "we're close," but the truth is we're not that far, particularly given the overwhelming number of games lost to injury.

I'm trying to keep my head up. I thought I shared this the other day, but don't see it now, but I said to my wife after another loss, "do you think the Reds will win another game this season?". She was upstairs and called down, "Ah, honey, don't be so pessimistic, it doesn't become you." And they've lost two more games since. Last night I tweaked (that's what you do on Twitter, right?) that having rained all day, it was a shame they were saying we'd get the game in because if rained and rained, it would guarantee we wouldn't lose.

Still, I love the Reds and hope for the best. It's become a bizarre season for a myriad of reasons; some of the club's making, some just freak things (like getting Rolen and having him out right away due to the beaning - we are absolutely snakebit, as they say!).

NJReds
08-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Otherwise, 1982 was as dark and miserable as any baseball season ever has been or ever will be.

Except for the All-Star Game.

Dave Concepcion homered and was the MVP.

Soto tossed a couple of scoreless innings.

Tom Hume got the save.

HokieRed
08-05-2009, 01:55 PM
What we need from you, then, Kc, is a priority listing. What comes before what, given the fact we're not likely to be able to do the three things you mention? How do we get there? Let's say, for interest sake, we net 7 million of Arroyo's salary, continuing to pay the other 4.

15fan
08-05-2009, 01:55 PM
Yeah, but they had Larry Biitner...Larry Biitner!

Biitner was the only guy on the roster to hit .300+ (.310 in 184 ABs) in 1982.

Biitner's .369 OBP led the team, and his .413 SLG tied him with Cendeno for 2nd on the team behind Driessen's .421.

Those numbers aren't based on minimum ABs or PAs, either. That's anyone who stepped into the batters box at all that year.

For more futility in 1982, I present the entire OF:

Milner (452 PAs) - .268 / .338 / .378
Cedeno (543 PAs) - .289 / .346 / .413
Householder (455 PAs) - .211 / .265 / .326
Walker (275 PAs) - .218 / .298 / .322

730 Combined PAs went to the sub-.220 duo of Paul Householder and Duane Walker.

Here are some reference points for those #s:

Pokey Reese (3,138 career PAs): .248 / .307 / .352
Corey Patterson (3,743 career PAs): .252 / .291 / .405
Jason LaRue (3,001 career PAs): .232 / .317 / .399

The good news is that the Reds were rewarded for their 1982 futility with the #2 pick in the 1983 draft. They used that pick to draft Kurt Stillwell, who went to KC for Danny Jackson. Most Reds fans would agree that was a pretty good trade.

Of course, it's also worth pointing out that the Red Sox drafted Roger Clemens with the #19 pick in 1983.

15fan
08-05-2009, 01:55 PM
Sorry to nitpick here, but I must defend the memory of my all-time favorite Red. It's L-E-S-L-E-Y, Brad Lesley. :cool:

My bad.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 02:00 PM
Sorry to nitpick here, but I must defend the memory of my all-time favorite Red. It's L-E-S-L-E-Y, Brad Lesley. :cool:


"That's Hedley."

http://www.paulaltobelli.com/uploaded_images/hedley_lamarr-700274.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2009, 02:18 PM
Jonny Gomes - Larry Bittner
Laynce Nix - Mike Vail

Willie Taveres wishes he was Eddie Milner.

Stormy
08-05-2009, 02:19 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

TRF
08-05-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

The beauty of this post is that DFA'ing Taveras doesn't appear until the end of it. It's not a major move, just a necessary one.

Stormy
08-05-2009, 02:29 PM
The beauty of this post is that DFA'ing Taveras doesn't appear until the end of it. It's not a major move, just a necessary one.

Yea, moving him opens the door to improving 2 outfield spots in mind. It upgrades CF by default, mandating that we use Dickerson there in a platoon situation. Simultaneously, it puts a spotlight on the need to acquire a legitimate LF bomber, as opposed to shuffling our CF into the LF platoon situation. If Taveras, or the current LF platoon return in 2010, then I foresee a bunch of trouble.

When you're on the wrong road, the most expedient measure is to change course, and return to the proper route. Cutting Taveras signals Walt's acknowledgement of his mistake, and a recognition that we need improved production in CF/LF, not to mention in the construction of the top of our batting order.

This is all so fundamental, and simple, and yet I have so little faith that we'll take the appropriate steps to correct these measures.

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

Like the plan!

Strikes Out Looking
08-05-2009, 02:43 PM
Like the plan!

At least somebody has one.

HokieRed
08-05-2009, 02:44 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

Like everything about it. Depending on how we view Alonso, I might suffer a little longer with an alternative in LF (i.e. if we think best way to get good bats at 1b and Lf is actually Alonso and Votto, say, by August 2010) in order to upgrade the FA pitcher or do something more at C.

OldXOhio
08-05-2009, 02:54 PM
Biitner was the only guy on the roster to hit .300+ (.310 in 184 ABs) in 1982.

Biitner's .369 OBP led the team, and his .413 SLG tied him with Cendeno for 2nd on the team behind Driessen's .421.

Those numbers aren't based on minimum ABs or PAs, either. That's anyone who stepped into the batters box at all that year.

For more futility in 1982, I present the entire OF:

Milner (452 PAs) - .268 / .338 / .378
Cedeno (543 PAs) - .289 / .346 / .413
Householder (455 PAs) - .211 / .265 / .326
Walker (275 PAs) - .218 / .298 / .322

730 Combined PAs went to the sub-.220 duo of Paul Householder and Duane Walker.

Here are some reference points for those #s:

Pokey Reese (3,138 career PAs): .248 / .307 / .352
Corey Patterson (3,743 career PAs): .252 / .291 / .405
Jason LaRue (3,001 career PAs): .232 / .317 / .399

The good news is that the Reds were rewarded for their 1982 futility with the #2 pick in the 1983 draft. They used that pick to draft Kurt Stillwell, who went to KC for Danny Jackson. Most Reds fans would agree that was a pretty good trade.

Of course, it's also worth pointing out that the Red Sox drafted Roger Clemens with the #19 pick in 1983.

What genius decided to give Paul Householder 455 PAs that year?

RedsBaron
08-05-2009, 02:54 PM
1982 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/1982.shtml)



Otherwise, 1982 was as dark and miserable as any baseball season ever has been or ever will be.

The 1982 and 1983 seasons were horrible years to be a Reds fan, but by 1985 the Reds had turned things around and finished second four years in a rwo, from 1985 through 1988, before winning the World Sereis in 1990. The seeds for that trunaround were sown in 1982-83, even though most Reds fans, including me, were unaware of it at the time.
The Reds had signed Eric Davis in 1980. By 1987 he was the most exciting player in the game and a key member of the 1990 World Champs.
Paul O'Neill was signed in 1981. While his greatest years were as a Yankee, he helped bring a title to the Reds in 1990.
1982 brought Tom Browning and Kal Daniels to the Reds minor league system. Browning was a 20 game winner in 1985 and a key starting pitcher for the 1990 World Champs, while Daniels had a couple of big years with the bat before his knees gave out.
In 1983 the Reds added Chris Sabo, Rob Dibble, Joe Oliver, John Franco and Kurt Stillwell. While Stillwell didn't do much as a Red, along with Ted Power he was a trading chip that brough Danny Jackson to Cincinnati after the 1987 season. Franco was a terrific relief pitcher whom the Reds then traded for Randy Myers after the 1989 season. Meanwhile Sabo was the 1988 NL rookie of the year and solid third baseman for the 1990 World Champs, Oliver was the catcher for the 1990 team, and Dibble was the most intimidating relief pitcher ever in 1990-91.
There was already some talent at the major league level in place in 1982-83 that helped during at least part of the Reds mid-80s revival: Mario Soto, Ron Oester, Nick Esasky. Dave Parker was acquired as a free agent in 1984, Barry larkin was signed in 1985, and Parker was used as trade bait to land Jose Rijo after the 1987 season, but the core of the 1990 World Champion Reds was being built during the dark days of 1982-83.
Do the current Reds have such a core being constructed?

MikeS21
08-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Like everything about it. Depending on how we view Alonso, I might suffer a little longer with an alternative in LF (i.e. if we think best way to get good bats at 1b and Lf is actually Alonso and Votto, say, by August 2010) in order to upgrade the FA pitcher or do something more at C.
I'm thinking that since 2009 is a lost cause, and 2010 isn't looking much better, why not go ahead and move Votto to LF to get used to the position? Alonso will be ready probably mid-2010. That would solve the LF issue. Then the focus can be on SS, CF, and a starting pitcher.

M2
08-05-2009, 03:09 PM
If I was the GM, I'd ...

GM in the morning
I'd GM in the evening
All over this land

I'd GM out danger
I'd GM out warning
I'd GM love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

Edskin
08-05-2009, 03:15 PM
Difference between 1982 and 2009:

In 1982, the organization was only 6 years removed from a WS title, and only a few seasons removed from the playoffs. I think fans were willing to accept a rebuilding period with general faith that they'd get back on track.

Now, not so much.

vic715
08-05-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm thinking that since 2009 is a lost cause, and 2010 isn't looking much better, why not go ahead and move Votto to LF to get used to the position? Alonso will be ready probably mid-2010. That would solve the LF issue. Then the focus can be on SS, CF, and a starting pitcher. Thats what I would do and do it in spring training and hope that Walt will trade for a decent cf.I like Stormys idea to move Phillps to ss but don't see that happening.still holes to fill.

cincrazy
08-05-2009, 03:31 PM
All the Reds need to do is somehow add to their lineup "in-their-prime" Ted Williams (power hitting left fielder), Barry Larkin (shortstop who gets on base and can hit leadoff) and Greg Maddux (starting pitcher better than Arroyo). Unfortunately, Barry and Greg are retired and Ted is a bit dead.
The Reds would be better if they could add the players suggested by Kc61, but I'm not sure who is available to fit the bill, and I sure don't expect the Reds to do so.

HOWEVER, he is frozen, so there is a slight chance he could suit up for the Reds in the future.

Strikes Out Looking
08-05-2009, 03:34 PM
What genius decided to give Paul Householder 455 PAs that year?

Paul Householder was "the" phenom that year coming out of Spring Training--he was the next big thing, the next can't miss. He missed, but the Reds kept trying and eventually the farm system produced Eric Davis and Paul O'Neil.

Unassisted
08-05-2009, 03:51 PM
HOWEVER, he is frozen, so there is a slight chance he could suit up for the Reds in the future.Kluszewski's frozen, too? Was he frozen like Han Solo into that statue at GABP? :eek:

RedsBaron
08-05-2009, 03:58 PM
HOWEVER, he is frozen, so there is a slight chance he could suit up for the Reds in the future.

I bet a frozen Ted Williams would still have a higher OBP than Taveras.

Big Klu
08-05-2009, 04:00 PM
The beauty of this post is that DFA'ing Taveras doesn't appear until the end of it. It's not a major move, just a necessary one.

Why do you want to designate Taveras for assignment? Are you planning on reassigning him to the minors, or trading him? If you don't want him (and I don't, either), then don't waste time about it--just release him.

princeton
08-05-2009, 04:02 PM
if I was GM, I'd definitely trade myself someplace better.

M2
08-05-2009, 04:13 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

That's the basic blueprint. Shifting Phillips to SS would seem essential, unless the organization is willing to go all in on Cozart.

I'd add a new catcher to the needs list and pencil that position for the #7 or #8 slot in the order. Hanigan, for me, is a fall back option when it comes to being the primary catcher.

I also think the Reds have the luxury of getting an OF with gap power and seeing if that blossoms into something more at the GAB rather than shelling out for an expensive power hitter.

The trickiest part is the starting pitching. It's probably going to require taking a long shot on an arm like Fausto Carmona.

OnBaseMachine
08-05-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm beyond hopelessness, and have nearly moved into the territory of complete apathy regarding the steps necessary to resuscitate this dormant organization. I can think of one 'quick-fix' agenda that might allow Walt to improve the team for his 2010 window, without jeopardizing the long haul.

He needs to move one of the big 3 contracts, move Phillips to SS, and use his newfound payroll savings on a phenomenal LF bat (or #2/3 SP), while trading for the other. So, with a minimal amount of moves, you could have the following line-up for 2010.

Stubbs/Dickerson ~ CF
Hanigan ~ C
Votto ~ 1B
Big FA acquisition ~ LF
Rolen ~ 3B
Phillips ~ SS
Bruce ~ RF
Frazier ~ 2B

Maybe a bench of Gomes, Dickerson, Rosales, backup catcher, backup MI

Cueto
#2 SP acquisition
Harang
Owings
Bailey

Frasier, Massett, Rhodes, Cordero, Herrera, etc...

If Walt can clear the salary space of Arroyo or Harang, and direct the savings towards a big FA bat. Then, he's left just needing to shift Phillips to SS, and using one of Heisey/Stubbs and another minor leaguer to acquire us a young #2/3 type starter. This seems the easiest route to accomplish anything resembling an immediately viable team. It also requires the will to DFA or move Taveras. It would be vastly improved offense, an upgraded defense over much of 2009, it fits in the budget, and provides at least a mediocre rotation while waiting to see if Volquez ever returns.

Excellent plan. I love it.

Rojo
08-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I'm coming around on Phillips to short, although the Frazier plan feels a little desperate. And part of me feels that Walt will sign Khalil.

With the additions of Frazier, Rolen and the hopeful blossoming of Bruce, I'd be less concerned about a LF bat. LF bats are the most fungible thing in baseball. I'd rather double up on a frontline pitcher like Lackey.

Strikes Out Looking
08-05-2009, 04:48 PM
If I was GM I'd beat Dusty everytime he bats Taveras first and Gonzo second. In fact, if I was Joey Votto before I got up to warm up in the on-deck circle, I'd bash Dusty with my bat.