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View Full Version : Per John Fays Twitter _Brandon would play SS if the reds want him too



redsfan4445
08-05-2009, 05:31 PM
its on mlbtraderumours, from John Fays Twitter..

Brandon Phillips would consider playing short if the Reds want him to, according to John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer.


I say do it NOW!!!

OnBaseMachine
08-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Brandon Phillips is up for a move to shortstop.

"I'll do whatever the Reds want me to do," he said. "I'll play outfield, shortstop."

Phillips came up as shortstop. He won the Gold Glove at second base last year.

The reason it's being discussed is shortstop Alex Gonzalez's contract is up. The Reds hold an option that they almost surely will not pick up. The Reds have been playing Todd Frazier, their No. 2 prospect, at second base lately. Frazier's move there was unrelated to Phillips, Walt Jocketty said. But even if the Reds decide to go the free agent route, a free agent second baseman would be less expensive than a shortstop. And the shortstop free agent class for 2010 is weak.

"No one's said anything to me," Phillips said. "But I'll do whatever makes the team better."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a67afcd24-2877-442b-9af0-89691cdbb1d4&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

WVRed
08-05-2009, 05:53 PM
As good a bat as Phillips has, why does this have Pokey Reese written all over it?

GAC
08-05-2009, 06:08 PM
Phillips said. "But I'll do whatever makes the team better."

I have some ideas for him; but it would probably involve a Grand Jury indictment and jail time. :p:

Degenerate39
08-05-2009, 06:12 PM
I have some ideas for him; but it would probably involve a Grand Jury indictment and jail time. :p:

You want him to play for the Bengals?

KronoRed
08-05-2009, 06:17 PM
As good a bat as Phillips has, why does this have Pokey Reese written all over it?

I doubt it would be that bad but this is a few years too late, reeks of a fear of repeaing the AGon mistake.

My guess is Walt will go find a real SS and see if Frazier can eventully make Phillips trade bait.

TheNext44
08-05-2009, 06:20 PM
I have some ideas for him; but it would probably involve a Grand Jury indictment and jail time. :p:

I am not sure we are on the same wave length, but if your idea involves making a certain CF "disappear", I think if the jury had just one Reds fan, they would never convict. :cool:

(just kidding for anyone offended)

Tom Servo
08-05-2009, 06:21 PM
BP at SS would be pretty great. It's more than a bit easier to find a 2B who can hit and field than the same for a shortstop.

Razor Shines
08-05-2009, 06:22 PM
I am not sure we are on the same wave length, but if your idea involves making a certain CF "disappear", I think if the jury had just one Reds fan, they would never convict. :cool:

(just kidding for anyone offended)

I'm offended, every night. When is Willy going to apologize to anyone offended by his play?

M2
08-05-2009, 06:23 PM
With Rolen and his best-in-generation glove over at 3B, the Reds would be foolish not to give Phillips a long look at SS for the rest of this season. The team is never going to have a better left side complement than it does right now.

RedEye
08-05-2009, 06:36 PM
I doubt it would be that bad but this is a few years too late, reeks of a fear of repeaing the AGon mistake.

My guess is Walt will go find a real SS and see if Frazier can eventully make Phillips trade bait.

Pokey Reese? I dunno about that. At least Brandon will hit well enough to stay on the team (or on someone else's team) if the experiment doesn't work. Actually, I would expect the Reds to try all of their options over the coming months--by moving Frazier to 2B, trying BP at SS and, if those two things don't work, looking for outside help at one or both positions.

Also, not sure about Valaika and Cozart, but you have to think their names will come up at some point in the discussion as well.

savafan
08-05-2009, 06:51 PM
6 seasons playing SS in the minors, Brandon had 148 errors in 572 games for a .949 fielding %

wheels
08-05-2009, 06:58 PM
With Rolen and his best-in-generation glove over at 3B, the Reds would be foolish not to give Phillips a long look at SS for the rest of this season. The team is never going to have a better left side complement than it does right now.

That's exactly right.

hebroncougar
08-05-2009, 07:09 PM
Yeah, but what would we do with Gonzo in the meantime? ;)

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:12 PM
If they do move Phillips to SS it's not like they are going to have Jeff Keppinger out there. He may not be Hanley Ramirez out there but he's not going to suck. If Brandon is sincere about this I'm all for it. But I get the feeling that his statement was for public consumption and he doesn't want to switch.

GAC
08-05-2009, 07:14 PM
With Rolen and his best-in-generation glove over at 3B, the Reds would be foolish not to give Phillips a long look at SS for the rest of this season. The team is never going to have a better left side complement than it does right now.

That is a good idea. What have we got to lose in '09?

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:18 PM
That is a good idea. What have we got to lose in '09?

Don't you know we are this close to turning things around? That could really mess things up.

savafan
08-05-2009, 07:19 PM
If they do move Phillips to SS it's not like they are going to have Jeff Keppinger out there. He may not be Hanley Ramirez out there but he's not going to suck. If Brandon is sincere about this I'm all for it. But I get the feeling that his statement was for public consumption and he doesn't want to switch.

I don't know about that, Phillips said last year that he'd love to play short.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:27 PM
I don't know about that, Phillips said last year that he'd love to play short.

And how many games did he play at short this year? He keeps saying that but I've yet to see any evidence that he's willing to do it.

Tom Servo
08-05-2009, 07:34 PM
And how many games did he play at short this year? He keeps saying that but I've yet to see any evidence that he's willing to do it.
Hey remember that one game he played at SS in 2006?

BRM
08-05-2009, 07:35 PM
And how many games did he play at short this year? He keeps saying that but I've yet to see any evidence that he's willing to do it.

All it takes is for the manager to pencil his name into the lineup at SS. I'd say it's Baker who's not willing to do it. There is no evidence on Brandon's part other than what he's said in the press.

savafan
08-05-2009, 07:36 PM
And how many games did he play at short this year? He keeps saying that but I've yet to see any evidence that he's willing to do it.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it's been Brandon's hesitation to play short as much as management's hesitation to play him there.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 07:39 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't think it's been Brandon's hesitation to play short as much as management's hesitation to play him there.

Perhaps he has privately made his feelings known about moving and they are reluctant to move him there. I'm just guessing just like folks guessed that Dunn refused to play 1st.

M2
08-05-2009, 07:58 PM
Perhaps he has privately made his feelings known about moving and they are reluctant to move him there. I'm just guessing just like folks guessed that Dunn refused to play 1st.

And Adam Dunn is now the 1B for the Nats.

Player X won't do Y speculations are almost always wrong. Plus, SS is a glamor position and Phillips grew up dreaming of being a big league SS.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:01 PM
And Adam Dunn is now the 1B for the Nats.

Player X won't do Y speculations are almost always wrong. Plus, SS is a glamor position and Phillips grew up dreaming of being a big league SS.


True in both cases. But Brandon has that GG at 2nd and may be wary of a switch that puts him at a position that he may not be as good at.

RedEye
08-05-2009, 08:02 PM
If they do move Phillips to SS it's not like they are going to have Jeff Keppinger out there. He may not be Hanley Ramirez out there but he's not going to suck. If Brandon is sincere about this I'm all for it. But I get the feeling that his statement was for public consumption and he doesn't want to switch.

I take your point... but Hanley is actually at risk himself for being removed from the position, no? Word is he's no great shakes as a fielding SS.

Caveat Emperor
08-05-2009, 08:03 PM
We could very well be looking at the 2010 Reds infield when the rosters expand:

1B: Votto
2B: Frazier
3B: Rolen
SS: Phillips

M2
08-05-2009, 08:18 PM
True in both cases. But Brandon has that GG at 2nd and may be wary of a switch that puts him at a position that he may not be as good at.

On the flipside, Phillips may not get that 2012 picked up if he's a 2B (probably not). If he's hitting the way he hits as SS, then he might even get a contract extension.

reds44
08-05-2009, 08:21 PM
We could very well be looking at the 2010 Reds infield when the rosters expand:

1B: Votto
2B: Frazier
3B: Rolen
SS: Phillips
That's not too shabby.

Now get a couple of outfielders.

Highlifeman21
08-05-2009, 08:21 PM
If they do move Phillips to SS it's not like they are going to have Jeff Keppinger out there. He may not be Hanley Ramirez out there but he's not going to suck. If Brandon is sincere about this I'm all for it. But I get the feeling that his statement was for public consumption and he doesn't want to switch.

You realize Hanley Ramirez is pretty bad @ SS, right?

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:22 PM
On the flipside, Phillips may not get that 2012 picked up if he's a 2B (probably not). If he's hitting the way he hits as SS, then he might even get a contract extension.

$11M for 2011, IIRC. He may not even make it to 2012. But, interesting incentive for the Reds to use although it would be a bad idea to promise him or any player anything.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:23 PM
You realize Hanley Ramirez is pretty bad @ SS, right?

My bad. I meant Derek Jeter. ;)

Highlifeman21
08-05-2009, 08:26 PM
My bad. I meant Derek Jeter. ;)

I would hope Phillips could be better than Jeter @ SS.

I mean we are talking about one of the worst defensive SS in all of MLB nowadays...

I would think Phillips could be on par with the current version of Alex Gonzalez.

At worst, I'd think Phillips would be an average SS, no?

M2
08-05-2009, 08:27 PM
$11M for 2011, IIRC. He may not even make it to 2012. But, interesting incentive for the Reds to use although it would be a bad idea to promise him or any player anything.

2011 is guaranteed money. Two productive years at SS and he'll be getting paid after that one way or another.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:31 PM
2011 is guaranteed money. Two productive years at SS and he'll be getting paid after that one way or another.

I know. But what I'm saying is that he may be traded before then. PayFlex, you know. Have to pick up the next Corey Taveras.

RedEye
08-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Is it just me, or are there two separate threads on this same topic right now? Mods... any chance we could merge them for ease of use? Thanks.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:36 PM
I would think Phillips could be on par with the current version of Alex Gonzalez.

At worst, I'd think Phillips would be an average SS, no?

Oh, absolutely. But he may not be GG caliber at SS while he is at 2nd. I'd take Gonzoesque defense at SS but he knows how many times Larkin got screwed out of a GG at SS. I'm not saying he wouldn't switch but you could see his motivation for staying put.

Highlifeman21
08-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Oh, absolutely. But he may not be GG caliber at SS while he is at 2nd. I'd take Gonzoesque defense at SS but he knows how many times Larkin got screwed out of a GG at SS. I'm not saying he wouldn't switch but you could see his motivation for staying put.

Definitely.

In Brandon's world, you can't spell team without "me".

And while his GG caliber D @ 2B is awesome (don't get me wrong), he'll do everything he can to make himself the most money while attempting to be the best 2B (which he'll never do while guys like Utley, Hudson, Zobrist, Pedroia, Kinsler, or Roberts continue to play 2B).

So, kinda hard to be the best 2B in MLB when you're only arguably the 2nd best 2B in your league (Utley clearly the best, I prefer Hudson over Phillips)....

Chip R
08-05-2009, 08:51 PM
Definitely.

In Brandon's world, you can't spell team without "me".

And while his GG caliber D @ 2B is awesome (don't get me wrong), he'll do everything he can to make himself the most money while attempting to be the best 2B (which he'll never do while guys like Utley, Hudson, Zobrist, Pedroia, Kinsler, or Roberts continue to play 2B).

So, kinda hard to be the best 2B in MLB when you're only arguably the 2nd best 2B in your league (Utley clearly the best, I prefer Hudson over Phillips)....

Thing is he's won the GG at 2nd. If you've won it once, it's much easier the second and third and fourth time around. He goes to SS he has to start over from scratch.

Highlifeman21
08-05-2009, 09:01 PM
Thing is he's won the GG at 2nd. If you've won it once, it's much easier the second and third and fourth time around. He goes to SS he has to start over from scratch.

I completely agree, which is why he won't switch.

He'll continue to throw his name in the hat with the NL 2Bs. Right now his competition is Utley, Hudson and Castillo.

He switches to SS, and he's gotta compete with the likes of Rollins (overrated, IMO), Jose Reyes (when healthy), Tejada, Theriot, Furcal, Hardy, Renteria (only by name though, he's going the way of Derek Jeter), Y. Escobar. Bigger list, harder to make a name for yourself.

So, I can see Brandon looking out for Brandon and his awards mantle.

Chip R
08-05-2009, 09:03 PM
So, I can see Brandon looking out for Brandon and his awards mantle.


Yep. I hope not but I could see it.

M2
08-05-2009, 09:08 PM
I know. But what I'm saying is that he may be traded before then. PayFlex, you know. Have to pick up the next Corey Taveras.

True, I'm a bit surprised the Reds didn't deal him last week.

Eric_the_Red
08-05-2009, 09:16 PM
Didn't BP idolize Larkin growing up? I say you bring in Barry and let him work with BP in the off-season/ST, and give it a go in 2010. I agree that with Rolen at 3B, BP would just have to not be awful to stick at SS.

I'll leave it to the numbers guys to figure out, but what generate more runs: AGon at SS and BP at 2nd, or a decent-gloved BP at SS and a decent batting/mediocre gloved Frazier at 2nd? With the rotation in a great deal of disarray for 2010, I'll take the boost in offense.

Scrap Irony
08-05-2009, 09:17 PM
I completely agree, which is why he won't switch.

He'll continue to throw his name in the hat with the NL 2Bs. Right now his competition is Utley, Hudson and Castillo.

He switches to SS, and he's gotta compete with the likes of Rollins (overrated, IMO), Jose Reyes (when healthy), Tejada, Theriot, Furcal, Hardy, Renteria (only by name though, he's going the way of Derek Jeter), Y. Escobar. Bigger list, harder to make a name for yourself.

So, I can see Brandon looking out for Brandon and his awards mantle.

If he wants to add to his awards mantle, those SS are much worse defensively than those 2B. Reyes is shaky with his footwork, arm, and vapor locks in pressure situations. Tejada has the range of a 3b. Theriot is Ryan Freel with a better bat, Rafael Furcal can't bend at the waist, Renteria is 110 years old, and Yunel Escobar reminds no one in Atlanta of Rafael Ramirez or Jeff Blauser, for that matter.

If he's a "me-first" guy, Phillips should see:
- SS as a higher profile position
- SS offers a better chance at free agent big money
- Only Reyes and perhaps Escobar as All Star level players at the position
- Comparisons to favorite Red, Larkin
- Becoming media darling and ersatz captain for putting team first

Meanwhile, at 2B, he has to deal with Utley, everyone's Greatest 2B in the Game. (Deservedly so.)

Easy call, that, I'd think.

REDREAD
08-05-2009, 09:28 PM
I agree with Scrap Irony. SS is definitely more of a glamour position with higher potential for earning. He's a potential allstar at SS.

Personally, I think Phillips would play either SS or 2b. What's been holding the Reds back? That huge mistake named AGon. What if the Reds tried Phillips last year at SS and he thrived there? What would they do with the untradable AGon this year?

osuceltic
08-06-2009, 09:24 AM
Definitely.

In Brandon's world, you can't spell team without "me".

And while his GG caliber D @ 2B is awesome (don't get me wrong), he'll do everything he can to make himself the most money while attempting to be the best 2B (which he'll never do while guys like Utley, Hudson, Zobrist, Pedroia, Kinsler, or Roberts continue to play 2B).

So, kinda hard to be the best 2B in MLB when you're only arguably the 2nd best 2B in your league (Utley clearly the best, I prefer Hudson over Phillips)....

Yep. Look at these direct quotes from the guy. Selfish bastard.


Ill do whatever the Reds want me to do, he said. Ill play outfield, shortstop.

No ones said anything to me, Phillips said. But Ill do whatever makes the team better.

Highlifeman21
08-06-2009, 09:32 AM
Yep. Look at these direct quotes from the guy. Selfish bastard.

Public lip service and you know it.

Of course he's saying all the perceived right things.

M2
08-06-2009, 09:35 AM
Public lip service and you know it.

Of course he's saying all the perceived right things.

So now have him do them.

Highlifeman21
08-06-2009, 09:37 AM
So now have him do them.

I guess that's on The Dusty now.

It's one thing for Brandon to come out and say the right things, it's another thing for The Dusty to do the right things.

BRM
08-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Again, all it takes for Brandon to play SS is for Dusty to put him there. At least that's all it should take. If that decision is totally on Brandon then the Reds are screwed worse than I thought. Inmates running the asylum.

Degenerate39
08-06-2009, 09:44 AM
Again, all it takes for Brandon to play SS is for Dusty to put him there. At least that's all it should take. If that decision is totally on Brandon then the Reds are screwed worse than I thought. Inmates running the asylum.

Ken Griffey Jr. came to mind when I read that

BRM
08-06-2009, 09:45 AM
Ken Griffey Jr. came to mind when I read that

And Adam Dunn.

osuceltic
08-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Public lip service and you know it.

Of course he's saying all the perceived right things.

No, I don't. And neither do you.

Highlifeman21
08-06-2009, 10:21 AM
And Adam Dunn.

Adam Dunn refusing to play 1B and Barry Larkin refusing to bat leadoff are 2 of the biggest Reds urban legends ever....

Highlifeman21
08-06-2009, 10:24 AM
No, I don't. And neither do you.

So you're telling me the Reds have thought they've had such awesome defensive SS since 2006 is the reason why Brandon Phillips has played 1 game @ SS?

Or the Reds managers have magically forgotten Brandon Phillips came up thru the minors as a SS?

I don't buy it.

The Reds have known they've had statues @ SS since 2006, and they should have approached Brandon Phillips to play SS, rather than Brandon Phillips keeping his name in the papers saying "I'll do whatever it takes for this team to win".

osuceltic
08-06-2009, 11:14 AM
So you're telling me the Reds have thought they've had such awesome defensive SS since 2006 is the reason why Brandon Phillips has played 1 game @ SS?

Or the Reds managers have magically forgotten Brandon Phillips came up thru the minors as a SS?

I don't buy it.

The Reds have known they've had statues @ SS since 2006, and they should have approached Brandon Phillips to play SS, rather than Brandon Phillips keeping his name in the papers saying "I'll do whatever it takes for this team to win".

The Brandon Phillips hate on RedsZone is amazing.

First of all, you're arguing two different things. Should they have approached Phillips about playing SS? Maybe, maybe not. But they had $15 million committed to Gonzo for the past three years. He was signed to be their starting shortstop largely because they believe he's a good defensive shortstop (not going to debate that now). Even when Gonzo has been hurt, they've always believed he eventually would be the guy at that position for the duration of his contract (he actually was pretty darn good that first season, although no one remembers or admits that now). If they moved Phillips over the past three seasons, they still had to find a second baseman--and still were on the hook for Gonzo, who suddenly had no position to play. And that's if the move went well (which isn't, contrary to popular opinion around here, a given). It in no way was a no-brainer over the last three years.

It's only coming up now because they have no legitimate starting shortstop under contract next season AND they recently moved Frazier to second base. Maybe they're thinking about it now. Maybe not. We'll see.

As for Phillips "keeping his name in the paper" ... you mean by answering a question? Or I suppose you believe Phillips chased down the beat writers to talk to them about playing shortstop -- only he didn't really mean it, because he's selfish. Right? Talk about ridiculous criticism.

I'd respect you more if you just came out and posted "I hate Brandon Phillips" over and over. At least that would be honest. This line of criticism is full of ridiculous distortions and misrepresentations. It's so fundamentally dishonest, it's embarassing.

Cedric
08-06-2009, 11:25 AM
The Brandon Phillips hate on RedsZone is amazing.

First of all, you're arguing two different things. Should they have approached Phillips about playing SS? Maybe, maybe not. But they had $15 million committed to Gonzo for the past three years. He was signed to be their starting shortstop largely because they believe he's a good defensive shortstop (not going to debate that now). Even when Gonzo has been hurt, they've always believed he eventually would be the guy at that position for the duration of his contract (he actually was pretty darn good that first season, although no one remembers or admits that now). If they moved Phillips over the past three seasons, they still had to find a second baseman--and still were on the hook for Gonzo, who suddenly had no position to play. And that's if the move went well (which isn't, contrary to popular opinion around here, a given). It in no way was a no-brainer over the last three years.

It's only coming up now because they have no legitimate starting shortstop under contract next season AND they recently moved Frazier to second base. Maybe they're thinking about it now. Maybe not. We'll see.

As for Phillips "keeping his name in the paper" ... you mean by answering a question? Or I suppose you believe Phillips chased down the beat writers to talk to them about playing shortstop -- only he didn't really mean it, because he's selfish. Right? Talk about ridiculous criticism.

I'd respect you more if you just came out and posted "I hate Brandon Phillips" over and over. At least that would be honest. This line of criticism is full of ridiculous distortions and misrepresentations. It's so fundamentally dishonest, it's embarassing.

It's incredibly odd. I still think it has something to do with his supposed "Dunn bashing".

corkedbat
08-06-2009, 12:48 PM
I'd prefer making a big push for a young SS, but I realize that there's a very good chance it won't be successful and we have limited resources that can be used to fill other holes- an in-house solution would be great. I'd love to see Phillips move to short. I do worry about possible serious post-move griping though (if he actually went through with it at all).

I'd rather see Chone Figgens at second for a year and then decide between he and Frazier at 2B/3B in 2011 when Rolen's contract is up.

As for the OF. Those same limited resources means that this franchise is going to have to have contributions from prospects - yes, I said it. Bruce has to come around in RF with Gomes (I know he's not a great option) might get some starts against the toughest lefties. It would be even better if Ballentine could improve and help in RF.

WillyT needs to be buried to the 25th man position until he can be DFA'd and we need some combination of Stubbs/Heisey/Dickerson to come through. Then in LF, if the resources are there, add an impact bat.

Highlifeman21
08-06-2009, 03:22 PM
The Brandon Phillips hate on RedsZone is amazing.

First of all, you're arguing two different things. Should they have approached Phillips about playing SS? Maybe, maybe not. But they had $15 million committed to Gonzo for the past three years. He was signed to be their starting shortstop largely because they believe he's a good defensive shortstop (not going to debate that now). Even when Gonzo has been hurt, they've always believed he eventually would be the guy at that position for the duration of his contract (he actually was pretty darn good that first season, although no one remembers or admits that now). If they moved Phillips over the past three seasons, they still had to find a second baseman--and still were on the hook for Gonzo, who suddenly had no position to play. And that's if the move went well (which isn't, contrary to popular opinion around here, a given). It in no way was a no-brainer over the last three years.

It's only coming up now because they have no legitimate starting shortstop under contract next season AND they recently moved Frazier to second base. Maybe they're thinking about it now. Maybe not. We'll see.

As for Phillips "keeping his name in the paper" ... you mean by answering a question? Or I suppose you believe Phillips chased down the beat writers to talk to them about playing shortstop -- only he didn't really mean it, because he's selfish. Right? Talk about ridiculous criticism.

I'd respect you more if you just came out and posted "I hate Brandon Phillips" over and over. At least that would be honest. This line of criticism is full of ridiculous distortions and misrepresentations. It's so fundamentally dishonest, it's embarassing.

I don't even know where to start with this, but I'll do my best....

1. Gonzo was out for a full season. That was the time to try out Phillips @ SS, but it just so happens that Phillips won himself a Gold Glove @ 2B while Gonzo was out. Phillips is ridiculously good defensively, and he's one of the only exciting reasons to watch the Reds anymore. Tune in, see what great play Brandon might make tonight! Honestly, I hope he wins multiple Gold Gloves, b/c then it draws some kind of attention to the Reds.

2. Love Phillips' D, hate his game at the plate. Until Phillips realizes that walks are good too, embrace them, I'll continue to hate his offensive game. I think he has plenty of potential, but he just seems really selfish at the plate, IMO. While I want to believe that he's trying to put the ball in play to help the club, I'm more convinced he wants to put the ball in play to help his personal numbers.

3. I'm not arguing 2 things at all. When Phillips came up thru the Expos and Indians systems, he was a SS. He gets traded to the Reds, and now he's essentially asked to play a different position, 2B. My frustration with the Reds is that in 2006, Phillips was our best SS option, yet we tried him out as a 2B experiment, and that experiment's worked extremely well. However, why did we try him as a 2B and not a SS?

4. While Gonzo had a good year defensively @ SS in 2007 (and I definitely remember him doing so), why did we go after Gonzo in the first place? Why didn't we move Phillips back to SS? We could have plugged in any number of guys to play 2B, but instead, we chose to commit a sizeable amount of money to a SS on the wrong side of 30.

5. Brandon Phillips is a very selfish ballplayer, make no mistake about it.

Scrap Irony
08-06-2009, 03:34 PM
5. Brandon Phillips is a very selfish ballplayer, make no mistake about it.

Because... Because... Because I think he is!

Spring~Fields
08-06-2009, 03:40 PM
I would like Brandon better if he was not a cleanup batter breaking up the left handed batters, oh, wait, Rolen bats right handed. :)

Brutus
08-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Adam Dunn refusing to play 1B and Barry Larkin refusing to bat leadoff are 2 of the biggest Reds urban legends ever....

I can't really speak on Larkin's situation, but Dunn, while maybe not outright refusing, definitely made it a point to say he did not want to move there. I have no problem with the honesty, but he sure made it tough on the Reds to consider such a move if they were going to do so.

WMR
08-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Putting Phillips at SS makes perfect sense... just like it made perfect sense 3 years or so ago...

which is why the Reds didn't do it then and likely won't do it now.

Cedric
08-06-2009, 04:08 PM
I don't even know where to start with this, but I'll do my best....

1. Gonzo was out for a full season. That was the time to try out Phillips @ SS, but it just so happens that Phillips won himself a Gold Glove @ 2B while Gonzo was out. Phillips is ridiculously good defensively, and he's one of the only exciting reasons to watch the Reds anymore. Tune in, see what great play Brandon might make tonight! Honestly, I hope he wins multiple Gold Gloves, b/c then it draws some kind of attention to the Reds.

2. Love Phillips' D, hate his game at the plate. Until Phillips realizes that walks are good too, embrace them, I'll continue to hate his offensive game. I think he has plenty of potential, but he just seems really selfish at the plate, IMO. While I want to believe that he's trying to put the ball in play to help the club, I'm more convinced he wants to put the ball in play to help his personal numbers.

3. I'm not arguing 2 things at all. When Phillips came up thru the Expos and Indians systems, he was a SS. He gets traded to the Reds, and now he's essentially asked to play a different position, 2B. My frustration with the Reds is that in 2006, Phillips was our best SS option, yet we tried him out as a 2B experiment, and that experiment's worked extremely well. However, why did we try him as a 2B and not a SS?

4. While Gonzo had a good year defensively @ SS in 2007 (and I definitely remember him doing so), why did we go after Gonzo in the first place? Why didn't we move Phillips back to SS? We could have plugged in any number of guys to play 2B, but instead, we chose to commit a sizeable amount of money to a SS on the wrong side of 30.

5. Brandon Phillips is a very selfish ballplayer, make no mistake about it.

You almost seem personal about your hatred for Brandon. Weird, weird, weird. I'm not sure how you haven't broken the rules yet on here.

Ltlabner
08-06-2009, 04:11 PM
You almost seem personal about your hatred for Brandon. Weird, weird, weird. I'm not sure how you haven't broken the rules yet on here.

So loving his defense but not being a fan of his approach at the plate constitutes "personal hatred"?

osuceltic
08-06-2009, 05:52 PM
I don't even know where to start with this, but I'll do my best....
Next time start with the facts.


2. Love Phillips' D, hate his game at the plate. Until Phillips realizes that walks are good too, embrace them, I'll continue to hate his offensive game. I think he has plenty of potential, but he just seems really selfish at the plate, IMO. While I want to believe that he's trying to put the ball in play to help the club, I'm more convinced he wants to put the ball in play to help his personal numbers.
Right. OBP is all that matters. Failure to have a high OBP = selfishness. Got it.


3. I'm not arguing 2 things at all. When Phillips came up thru the Expos and Indians systems, he was a SS. He gets traded to the Reds, and now he's essentially asked to play a different position, 2B. My frustration with the Reds is that in 2006, Phillips was our best SS option, yet we tried him out as a 2B experiment, and that experiment's worked extremely well. However, why did we try him as a 2B and not a SS?
Phillips played about 1,080 innings in the majors over four years before joining the Reds. He played exactly three of those at shortstop. The other 1,077 or so were at second base. If the Reds had asked him to play shortstop, they would have been asking him to play a different position. Throw in the fact that Felipe Lopez had put up a 118 OPS+ at shortstop the previous season, and I don't think the Reds' actions were at all unreasonable.


4. While Gonzo had a good year defensively @ SS in 2007 (and I definitely remember him doing so), why did we go after Gonzo in the first place? Why didn't we move Phillips back to SS? We could have plugged in any number of guys to play 2B, but instead, we chose to commit a sizeable amount of money to a SS on the wrong side of 30.
Maybe Phillips could have handled it. Maybe. But he was then five years removed from playing shortstop. Again, I don't think signing a guy like Gonzalez was unreasonable considering the circumstances. And if he had put together three years comparable to 2007, it would have been a good signing. He didn't. Doesn't make the Reds idiots for not moving Phillips to SS back then.


5. Brandon Phillips is a very selfish ballplayer, make no mistake about it.
Well, that clears that up.

westofyou
08-06-2009, 06:00 PM
You almost seem personal about your hatred for Brandon. Weird, weird, weird. I'm not sure how you haven't broken the rules yet on here.

What rules?

Is not liking a player grounds for RZ banishment?

Am I missing something?


As for Brandon playing SS, I believe that ship has sailed.

As for Brandons OB%, it's not Joe Morgan's OB% that's for sure.

That said he's got a lot of other tools in his kit to help a team. Until he can't field, hit for power or steal the not getting on base tool isn't that important, and with players like Brandon it's good to not overpay for future performance, because once thoses other tools wane his warts will seem larger to the masses than currently.

And that's when you'll start to see real hatred for him... maybe we can get rule in place before that happens.

Big Klu
08-07-2009, 02:01 AM
What rules?

Is not liking a player grounds for RZ banishment?

Am I missing something?

If it is, then I might as well check out now, because I have made it no secret that I loathe Matt Holliday with the intensity of a thousand suns.

lollipopcurve
08-07-2009, 07:52 AM
I think an experiment makes sense. But I don't think Phillips would be a very good SS. His actions are somewhat long for a middle infielder, and he's faster than he is quick. His feet aren't great -- you rarely see him plant and fire, going to his right he generally throws while still moving away from first. That won't work so well at SS because he can't get real zip on the throws. To his left, he often dives and throws from his knees. Or, if he manages to stay on his feet, he's a bit awkward in getting oriented for his throw. He just doesn't have the real quick feet -- he's fast, very athletic and very accurate with his throws (though his arm isn't nearly as tested at 2B as it would be at SS), but I have a feeling the proximity of 2B to 1B makes his skills play up nicely.

I'm a big Phillips fan, and I think he's underappreciated on this board. But while I love the offensive upside of a Phillips SS/Frazier 2B keystone, I have real doubts about how well it would anchor the defense.

Reds1
08-07-2009, 08:43 AM
I thought this should have been done years ago. Easier to find a 2B then SS it seems and he'd be a good one. At this point I don't care. Depends on who they can find out there. But they need a impact bat at which ever position he doesn't play. Votto probably needs to go to LF now since we have a stud hitter in the minors - I"m just saying. This team can use a different look.

M2
08-07-2009, 09:58 AM
I think an experiment makes sense. But I don't think Phillips would be a very good SS. His actions are somewhat long for a middle infielder, and he's faster than he is quick. His feet aren't great -- you rarely see him plant and fire, going to his right he generally throws while still moving away from first. That won't work so well at SS because he can't get real zip on the throws. To his left, he often dives and throws from his knees. Or, if he manages to stay on his feet, he's a bit awkward in getting oriented for his throw. He just doesn't have the real quick feet -- he's fast, very athletic and very accurate with his throws (though his arm isn't nearly as tested at 2B as it would be at SS), but I have a feeling the proximity of 2B to 1B makes his skills play up nicely.

I'm a big Phillips fan, and I think he's underappreciated on this board. But while I love the offensive upside of a Phillips SS/Frazier 2B keystone, I have real doubts about how well it would anchor the defense.

Good points. I've always been of the opinion that 2B is Phillips' optimum position and, all things being equal, that's where he should play.

Yet the reason why I'd be open to trying him at SS for the rest of this season (in order to make a decision on whether he should be the SS in 2010) is that all things are not equal. The Reds have a laundry list of needs and the club has failed to find an adequate SS during Phillips' first four seasons with the club. He's only got two guaranteed seasons left on his contract and the Reds seem to be waiting for Godot at that position. Plus, Rolen's the best left side cover he's ever going to get.

Short contract window, no viable in-house secondary option, multiple needs elsewhere and a superior 3B partner - it would seem the conditions are right to make the move. Also, the Reds need a lot more offense and it's easier to add that at 2B.

Chip R
08-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Good points. I've always been of the opinion that 2B is Phillips' optimum position and, all things being equal, that's where he should play.

Yet the reason why I'd be open to trying him at SS for the rest of this season (in order to make a decision on whether he should be the SS in 2010) is that all things are not equal. The Reds have a laundry list of needs and the club has failed to find an adequate SS during Phillips' first four seasons with the club. He's only got two guaranteed seasons left on his contract and the Reds seem to be waiting for Godot at that position. Plus, Rolen's the best left side cover he's ever going to get.

Short contract window, no viable in-house secondary option, multiple needs elsewhere and a superior 3B partner - it would seem the conditions are right to make the move. Also, the Reds need a lot more offense and it's easier to add that at 2B.


The thing is, he can always move back to 2nd just like Ripkin moved from 3rd to SS back to 3rd.

M2
08-07-2009, 10:21 AM
The thing is, he can always move back to 2nd just like Ripkin moved from 3rd to SS back to 3rd.

Exactly. This might only be a temporary solution for the time he has remaining with the Reds. The key would be to try it now so the team can make a decision on whether it's filling a SS or 2B hole during the offseason.

Benihana
08-07-2009, 10:27 AM
The key would be to try it now so the team can make a decision on whether it's filling a SS or 2B hole during the offseason.

Which is exactly why this inept organization won't do it now. Same thing for Balentien playing everyday.

BRM
08-07-2009, 10:29 AM
Which is exactly why this inept organization won't do it now. Same thing for Balentien playing everyday.

It wouldn't surprise me if they just try it out for a week or two at the end of the season. It won't be nearly enough time but they'll be able to say they gave it a shot.

Benihana
08-07-2009, 10:35 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if they just try it out for a week or two at the end of the season. It won't be nearly enough time but they'll be able to say they gave it a shot.

You mean more disingenuous lip service? This organization? Bah!

princeton
08-07-2009, 10:46 AM
I'd play Cozart at shortstop in September

Chip R
08-07-2009, 10:47 AM
I'd play Cozart at shortstop in September


Could only play him against the Bucs. Every other team is still in the race, dude.

BRM
08-07-2009, 10:53 AM
I'd play Cozart at shortstop in September

Might as well let Cozart, Stubbs and Heisey all play in September.

princeton
08-07-2009, 10:54 AM
Could only play him against the Bucs. Every other team is still in the race, dude.

plus, if our pitching and hitting both really improve, Bob says that we still have a chance.

M2
08-07-2009, 10:54 AM
I'd play Cozart at shortstop in September

That strikes me as option #2. My guess is Cozart needs a year in AAA no matter what in order to make sure he doesn't go all Valaika at the plate. If the Reds had an offense, they could take a what-the-heck approach with Cozart at SS - bury him in the #8 hole and not worry as long as he played top tier defense. Yet the Reds don't have any semblance of that kind of offense.

Phillips at SS and production at 2B is likely a better play than Phillips at 2B and Cozart scuffling at the plate, but the club needs to take a long look at Phillips at SS to confirm it. Can't do that if you're playing Cozart.

If Cozart passes the AAA test then you can adjust in 2011.

BRM
08-07-2009, 10:56 AM
I agree with you M2 but my guess is the Reds really have no interest in playing Phillips at SS. So you might as well let Cozart get his feet wet this season, see if he can stick.

princeton
08-07-2009, 10:58 AM
That strikes me as option #2. My guess is Cozart needs a year in AAA no matter what in order to make sure he doesn't go all Valaika at the plate. If the Reds had an offense, they could take a what-the-heck approach with Cozart at SS - bury him in the #8 hole and not worry as long as he played top tier defense. Yet the Reds don't have any semblance of that kind of offense.

Phillips at SS and production at 2B > Phillips at 2B and Cozart scuffling at the plate

If Cozart passes the AAA test then you can adjust in 2011.

I'm sure that's what they'll do, especially since Cozart doesn't have to be protected from Rule V. and it does make sense to hold onto an option on an offensively-challenge prospect like Cozart.

however, I do note that Cozart has responded surprisingly well to rapid advancement. a September in the bigs, followed by a few games in Arizona or Latin America, and he might really surprise by next June.

princeton
08-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Might as well let Cozart, Stubbs and Heisey all play in September.


Stubbs and Heisey both have to go on 40 man roster by November, so I'm sure that they'll get September call-ups. I'd like to see at least one of them audition win a platoon with Dickerson in center.

Cozart doesn't, and probably will not.

M2
08-07-2009, 11:01 AM
I'm sure that's what they'll do, especially since Cozart doesn't have to be protected from Rule V. and it does make sense to hold onto an option on an offensively-challenge prospect like Cozart.

I don't know. My take is Walt Jocketty and Dusty Baker aren't too concerned with what the Reds will be doing three years from now. That's likely somebody else's problem.

BRM
08-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Stubbs and Heisey both have to go on 40 man roster by November, so I'm sure that they'll get September call-ups. I'd like to see at least one of them audition win a platoon with Dickerson in center.


Hopefully they get to play every day when they do get called up. For some reason, I seriously doubt it.

WMR
08-07-2009, 11:14 AM
I don't know. My take is Walt Jocketty and Dusty Baker aren't too concerned with what the Reds will be doing three years from now. That's likely somebody else's problem.

That would be us schmucks.

WMR
08-07-2009, 11:14 AM
Hopefully they get to play every day when they do get called up. For some reason, I seriously doubt it.

Gotta get the T virus his at bats.

BRM
08-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Gotta get the T virus his at bats.

It's called "protecting the integrity of the pennant races". Never mind that the callups are a decent bet to outperform the veterans they would be replacing.

Chip R
08-07-2009, 11:22 AM
Hopefully they get to play every day when they do get called up. For some reason, I seriously doubt it.


Yep. Every team we play in Sept. is obstensibly still in the race except for the Pirates. Of course if we're still in the race and we're behind the Pirates, that would mean they are still in the race too. My brain hurts. :confused:

WMR
08-07-2009, 11:31 AM
It's called "protecting the integrity of the pennant races". Never mind that the callups are a decent bet to outperform the veterans they would be replacing.

Most asinine concept ever. Of course Dusty would believe in it hook, line, and sinker.

The Reds have an obligation to ONE team, and one team only: THE CINCINNATI REDS. If getting a prolonged look at a kid on the big league level will make your team better in 2010, then you sure as hell need to be doing it, especially when you've sucked as bad and for as long as the Reds.

What makes it even more retarded is that in our situation, as you pointed out, the vets who Dusty will be playing ostensibly to win, are likely to suck worse than the youngsters.

nate
08-07-2009, 11:39 AM
Most asinine concept ever. Of course Dusty would believe in it hook, line, and sinker.

The Reds have an obligation to ONE team, and one team only: THE CINCINNATI REDS. If getting a prolonged look at a kid on the big league level will make your team better in 2010, then you sure as hell need to be doing it, especially when you've sucked as bad and for as long as the Reds.

What makes it even more retarded is that in our situation, as you pointed out, the vets who Dusty will be playing ostensibly to win, are likely to suck worse than the youngsters.

Right. I suppose the caveat is, if they make their changes now, then every team "in it" gets to beat them like a pinata.

Like that's any different than what's been happening.

BRM
08-07-2009, 11:49 AM
Right. I suppose the caveat is, if they make their changes now, then every team "in it" gets to beat them like a pinata.

Like that's any different than what's been happening.

Are they really that much worse with Stubbs and Heisey playing instead of Taveras and/or Nix? Frazier or Cozart instead of Gonzalez? I can't imagine they'd be any worse. They might actually be better.

WMR
08-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Right. I suppose the caveat is, if they make their changes now, then every team "in it" gets to beat them like a pinata.

Like that's any different than what's been happening.

Which might put us in a position to draft Harper or Strasburg??

http://legacy.lclark.edu/faculty/jsmiller/objects/idea_bulb.jpg

Big Klu
08-07-2009, 11:56 AM
It's called "protecting the integrity of the pennant races". Never mind that the callups are a decent bet to outperform the veterans they would be replacing.


Most asinine concept ever. Of course Dusty would believe in it hook, line, and sinker.

The Reds have an obligation to ONE team, and one team only: THE CINCINNATI REDS. If getting a prolonged look at a kid on the big league level will make your team better in 2010, then you sure as hell need to be doing it, especially when you've sucked as bad and for as long as the Reds.

What makes it even more retarded is that in our situation, as you pointed out, the vets who Dusty will be playing ostensibly to win, are likely to suck worse than the youngsters.

It is not unique to Dusty. Virtually every manager and coach in every professional sport buys into it. Playing unproven players against other clubs who are out of it is fine, but you are expected to play your best players against clubs who are still in the hunt. (Of course, who those players may be is another question altogether.)

nate
08-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Are they really that much worse with Stubbs and Heisey playing instead of Taveras and/or Nix? Frazier or Cozart instead of Gonzalez? I can't imagine they'd be any worse. They might actually be better.

Right on.

WMR
08-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Are they really that much worse with Stubbs and Heisey playing instead of Taveras and/or Nix? Frazier or Cozart instead of Gonzalez? I can't imagine they'd be any worse. They might actually be better.

Half the suck for 5 percent of the cost!!! :D

BRM
08-07-2009, 12:10 PM
It is not unique to Dusty. Virtually every manager and coach in every professional sport buys into it. Playing unproven players against other clubs who are out of it is fine, but you are expected to play your best players against clubs who are still in the hunt. (Of course, who those players may be is another question altogether.)

If Taveras and Gonzalez constitute "playing your best players" then I don't think it really matters ultimately.

BRM
08-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Half the suck for 5 percent of the cost!!! :D

More than likely it's performance improvement for 5 percent of the cost.

Big Klu
08-07-2009, 01:27 PM
If Taveras and Gonzalez constitute "playing your best players" then I don't think it really matters ultimately.

As I said, that's another question altogether. But the concept of not "experimenting" with the lineup vs. contenders during the stretch run is universally accepted in professional sports circles.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2009, 01:30 PM
Hopefully they get to play every day when they do get called up. For some reason, I seriously doubt it.

The last fifty games or so would be a good time for auditioning changes if they were given the greater amount of playing time from here on out versus the short tryout in spring training against pitching and defenses that are not up to speed in spring training. I agree with you that these auditions wont happen and they wont be given a significant amount of sample playing time to even get a decent look to see if they or the suggestions are a possible answer or solution.

osuceltic
08-07-2009, 01:44 PM
The last fifty games or so would be a good time for auditioning changes if they were given the greater amount of playing time from here on out versus the short tryout in spring training against pitching and defenses that are not up to speed in spring training. I agree with you that these auditions wont happen and they wont be given a significant amount of sample playing time to even get a decent look to see if they or the suggestions are a possible answer or solution.

I think it's a little overrated. Dickerson looked like a fourth outfielder before his September play last season. Turns out that's exactly what he is, even if that still makes him a better option than Taveras.

I'd rather watch Stubbs, Heisey, Frazier and Cozart in September, but it really isn't going to tell us all that much about whether or not they're ready for significant roles next season.

*BaseClogger*
08-07-2009, 11:28 PM
I think it's a little overrated. Dickerson looked like a fourth outfielder before his September play last season. Turns out that's exactly what he is, even if that still makes him a better option than Taveras.

It proved he is at least a fourth outfielder though? :confused:

mth123
08-08-2009, 04:13 AM
I think an experiment makes sense. But I don't think Phillips would be a very good SS. His actions are somewhat long for a middle infielder, and he's faster than he is quick. His feet aren't great -- you rarely see him plant and fire, going to his right he generally throws while still moving away from first. That won't work so well at SS because he can't get real zip on the throws. To his left, he often dives and throws from his knees. Or, if he manages to stay on his feet, he's a bit awkward in getting oriented for his throw. He just doesn't have the real quick feet -- he's fast, very athletic and very accurate with his throws (though his arm isn't nearly as tested at 2B as it would be at SS), but I have a feeling the proximity of 2B to 1B makes his skills play up nicely.

I'm a big Phillips fan, and I think he's underappreciated on this board. But while I love the offensive upside of a Phillips SS/Frazier 2B keystone, I have real doubts about how well it would anchor the defense.

I agree with every word of this post. Time to find a SS.

Highlifeman21
08-08-2009, 11:01 AM
I can't really speak on Larkin's situation, but Dunn, while maybe not outright refusing, definitely made it a point to say he did not want to move there. I have no problem with the honesty, but he sure made it tough on the Reds to consider such a move if they were going to do so.

Care to offer any evidence as to Dunn definitely making a point to say he did not want to move to 1B?

Pretty sure he said Hatteberg was a better defensive 1B than him, and that he felt he could help the Reds more by staying in LF.

I mean Dunn did skip the 1st WBC in 2006 after all to work on his 1B abilities, only to go back to LF once the Reds signed Hatteberg and the WBC was no longer an option for Dunn.

Sounds selfish to me, lemme tell ya...

And how come Dunn's played plenty of 1B for both the Diamondbacks & the Nationals? I guess he stopped refusing?

Highlifeman21
08-08-2009, 11:07 AM
You almost seem personal about your hatred for Brandon. Weird, weird, weird. I'm not sure how you haven't broken the rules yet on here.

Personal hatred b/c I think Brandon Phillips is the most exciting Red to watch, and sometimes the only reason I want to watch the Reds just to see what kind of defensive gem he can make?

Or is it personal hatred b/c I think Brandon Phillips is an out-making machine?

Which is it?

I'm glad Brandon Phillips plays for the Reds, and he's an exciting player. I just wish he contributed more offensively at times.

So I guess that's personal hatred?

Brutus
08-08-2009, 01:54 PM
Personal hatred b/c I think Brandon Phillips is the most exciting Red to watch, and sometimes the only reason I want to watch the Reds just to see what kind of defensive gem he can make?

Or is it personal hatred b/c I think Brandon Phillips is an out-making machine?

Which is it?

I'm glad Brandon Phillips plays for the Reds, and he's an exciting player. I just wish he contributed more offensively at times.

So I guess that's personal hatred?

He could stand to get on base more, no question. However, in 2 of the past 3 seasons, he's had a league-average OBP for his position. I'd reserve the "out-making machine" comments for the people that best deserve it (Taveras, etc.)

As far as Dunn is concerned, he said several times he didn't really want to move to 1B and that he was not comfortable there. Arizona was new for him, so I'm sure he did not feel like he had been there long enough to justify telling them he didn't want to play that position.