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blumj
08-07-2009, 04:44 PM
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/213144/smoltz-designated-assignment

Why do I think the Cards could fix him? Well, the Red Sox couldn't, that's clear.

Chip R
08-07-2009, 04:46 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1945144#post1945144

Tom Servo
08-07-2009, 04:47 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1945144#post1945144
I deleted mine, sorry to make both of us look foolish Chip. :p:

Joseph
08-07-2009, 04:50 PM
Looks like Maddux got out just in time.

Chip R
08-07-2009, 04:52 PM
I deleted mine, sorry to make both of us look foolish Chip. :p:

HeatherC1212
08-07-2009, 04:57 PM
It's sad to see him go out like this if this turns out to be his last year pitching in the majors. He's had a pretty great career overall.

UKFlounder
08-07-2009, 05:07 PM
The Braves took some grief this offseason for not re-signing him, but perhaps they were right after all


It's sad to see him go out like this if this turns out to be his last year pitching in the majors. He's had a pretty great career overall.

Raisor
08-07-2009, 05:08 PM
He should have called it a career when he got hurt last year. I know why he didn't, but it was a mistake to try to come back.

fearofpopvol1
08-07-2009, 05:13 PM
I could see the Braves grabbing him again.

Raisor
08-07-2009, 05:22 PM
I could see the Braves grabbing him again.

not a chance.

There's not a slot in the rotation for him and they just went through all this with Glavine. If they bring Smoltz back, then have to release him the city might explode.

blumj
08-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Ugh, it would so stink for him to go out like that, though. Humiliating.

Patrick Bateman
08-07-2009, 06:49 PM
I know his ERA is through the roof, and I haven't seen him pitch or anything, so I don't know how he is throwing....

but his peripherals are actually really good. Hard to believe it could be ALL luck based, but just based on stats, I could see it being possible that Smoltz could latch on to a contender (MIL, TEX??) and actually pitch pretty well.

Jpup
08-07-2009, 06:56 PM
I would sign him to a minor league deal with the promise of a contract if he shows he is healthy next spring. He might be done, but it's worth a shot.

Blimpie
08-07-2009, 08:02 PM
First ballot HOFers should know when it is time to ride off into the sunset.

CTA513
08-07-2009, 08:06 PM
I would see about going back to being a reliever before retiring.

UKFlounder
08-07-2009, 08:27 PM
Actually, they may have the most trouble knowing when to hang it up due to their expectations for themselves and competitiveness. I'm not so sure they "should" know immediately when it's time, though perhaps that would be the case in an ideal world.


First ballot HOFers should know when it is time to ride off into the sunset.

HokieRed
08-07-2009, 08:54 PM
I know his ERA is through the roof, and I haven't seen him pitch or anything, so I don't know how he is throwing....

but his peripherals are actually really good. Hard to believe it could be ALL luck based, but just based on stats, I could see it being possible that Smoltz could latch on to a contender (MIL, TEX??) and actually pitch pretty well.


I've seen him twice on TV, watched him closely. His velocity is good and the movement on his slider is still first rate. I'm really not sure why he's struggled as much as he has.

hebroncougar
08-07-2009, 09:09 PM
I've seen him twice on TV, watched him closely. His velocity is good and the movement on his slider is still first rate. I'm really not sure why he's struggled as much as he has.

He can't get lefties out, his two seamer lost a lot of it's cut (or he can't locate it), so lefties are pounding him. I think it's a situation where he needed to go to the minors and pitch quite a bit to get his location back, and at this point in the season it's not going to happen. I could see him being a situational righty in the pen, obviously the Sox couldn't.

blumj
08-08-2009, 06:59 AM
He can't get lefties out, his two seamer lost a lot of it's cut (or he can't locate it), so lefties are pounding him. I think it's a situation where he needed to go to the minors and pitch quite a bit to get his location back, and at this point in the season it's not going to happen. I could see him being a situational righty in the pen, obviously the Sox couldn't.

Maybe they can. I'm getting the distinct feeling from everything the Red Sox have been saying that they're really hoping he'll accept a minor league assignment.

hebroncougar
08-08-2009, 08:41 AM
Maybe they can. I'm getting the distinct feeling from everything the Red Sox have been saying that they're really hoping he'll accept a minor league assignment.

That would be good for the Sox, and Smoltz. Then bring him back when rosters expand. I guess as is, they didn't want to give up the roster spot.

Unassisted
08-19-2009, 09:00 AM
Sources: Smoltz leaning toward Cards (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4408342)

By Jayson Stark

Also

Sources: Cards will sign RHP Smoltz (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9954480/Sources:-Cards-will-sign-RHP-Smoltz)

savafan
08-20-2009, 12:55 PM
Sources: Smoltz leaning toward Cards (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4408342)

By Jayson Stark

Also

Sources: Cards will sign RHP Smoltz (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9954480/Sources:-Cards-will-sign-RHP-Smoltz)

Dave Duncan will probably squeeze another 2...maybe 3 Cy Young awards out of him. :p:

Highlifeman21
08-20-2009, 12:59 PM
Should prove interesting to see how Smoltz pitches on Sunday.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 03:59 PM
This is a great fit for both Smoltz and the Cardinals. The Cardinals have had problems with the 5th starter spot. Smoltz can't be much worse than Boggs and Wellemeyer have been, but he could be much better. If that doesn't work, then he could be the situational righty that the Cards need so badly. Mark DeRosa called Smoltz and told him that St. Louis would be a great place for him. Both DeRosa and Wainwright are friends of Smoltz. Actually, Smoltz was against the Braves trading Wainwright to the Cardinals for JD Drew. Now they are on the same team again.

traderumor
08-20-2009, 04:03 PM
This is a great fit for both Smoltz and the Cardinals. The Cardinals have had problems with the 5th starter spot. Smoltz can't be much worse than Boggs and Wellemeyer have been, but he could be much better. If that doesn't work, then he could be the situational righty that the Cards need so badly. Mark DeRosa called Smoltz and told him that St. Louis would be a great place for him. Both DeRosa and Wainwright are friends of Smoltz. Actually, Smoltz was against the Braves trading Wainwright to the Cardinals for JD Drew. Now they are on the same team again.I'd say the odds are that he's toast and the only reason anyone even cares is because of his name.

15fan
08-20-2009, 04:11 PM
I'd say the odds are that he's toast and the only reason anyone even cares is because of his name.

Yep.

Though rest assured that if he has one last stellar performance left in his arm, it will happen in a game against the Reds.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 04:15 PM
It is possible that you are right. Although, I do think that 40 innings is a small sample size to look at and come to the conclusion that he is done. For $100k, I think it's a small risk to see what he as left in the tank.

traderumor
08-20-2009, 04:23 PM
It is possible that you are right. Although, I do think that 40 innings is a small sample size to look at and come to the conclusion that he is done. For $100k, I think it's a small risk to see what he as left in the tank.I'm looking at the baling wire holding his arm together more than the sample size ;) I think all your management cares about at this point is the hope that he can do the job because he's John Smoltz (sort of like "I'm Keith Hernandez"), because they could try anybody for the same amount of money.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 04:25 PM
I'm looking at the baling wire holding his arm together more than the sample size ;)

Before the season started, a lot of people said the same thing about Chris Carpenter.

traderumor
08-20-2009, 04:28 PM
Before the season started, a lot of people sid the same thing about Chris Carpenter.Which is still a significant risk, and be careful about counting your Redbirds, because he got injured late in another playoff run.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 04:33 PM
Which is still a significant risk, and be careful about counting your Redbirds, because he got injured late in another playoff run.

You never know with Carp. When he's healthy, he is a CY Young contendor, but he does get hurt a lot.

blumj
08-20-2009, 04:49 PM
It is possible that you are right. Although, I do think that 40 innings is a small sample size to look at and come to the conclusion that he is done. For $100k, I think it's a small risk to see what he as left in the tank.
I'm actually less sure that he can recover it in time to help much for the rest of this season than that he has something left, FWIW. You'll see it for yourself soon enough, if you haven't yet this season, he's Smoltz for a while, and then he's not for a while.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I'm actually less sure that he can recover it in time to help much for the rest of this season than that he has something left, FWIW. You'll see it for yourself soon enough, if you haven't yet this season, he's Smoltz for a while, and then he's not for a while.

Well, the Cardinals don't need him to be great. There arn't a lot of expectations for him. If he can be a better 5th starter than Wellemeyer, then great. If he can just get righties out in the pen, just as good. Worst case scenario is he is a positive influence in the clubhouse. Wainwright looked at him as a mentor when he was in Atlanta. Anything a CY Young winner can teach our young pitchers is a plus. Since Boston is paying most of his salary (like Lugo), then any contributions from Smoltz will be great.

savafan
08-20-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm actually surprised Boston didn't try him out of the bullpen before cutting him. I think at the very least, he can help a contender as a reliever, especially in the National League, and without a doubt in the NL Central.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2009, 08:41 PM
Boston must hae so much money that they just dont care. They have wasted a lot of money within the last month alone. They are playing 2 players Lugo and Smoltz NOT to lay for them. They are on the hook for 9Mil next year for Lugo. I'm not certain how much Smoltz earned this year, but I've heard that it is somewhere between $5.5Mil and $8.5 Mil. It seems like they gave up on both players too soon.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 10:07 AM
The plan is to use Smoltz in the bullpen to set up Ryan Franklin against righties. Smoltz against righties and Miller aganst lefties. He hasn't pitched in a game for a couple of weeks, so he will get 2 starts to try and get him some innings before moving him to the bullpen. Those starts would have gone to Boggs or Wellemeyer, so he probably can't do much worse. He could be useful out of the pen for the rest of the year and throughout the playoffs. Also, in an interview last night, Smoltz said that Duncan found a couple of things from watching his videos that he wants him to do differently.

blumj
08-21-2009, 10:54 AM
Boston must hae so much money that they just dont care. They have wasted a lot of money within the last month alone. They are playing 2 players Lugo and Smoltz NOT to lay for them. They are on the hook for 9Mil next year for Lugo. I'm not certain how much Smoltz earned this year, but I've heard that it is somewhere between $5.5Mil and $8.5 Mil. It seems like they gave up on both players too soon.
Lugo didn't fit, anymore. If he can't play SS every day, and do a good job defensively, there's no place for him on their roster. Lowrie getting hurt again didn't really change that. Smoltz is different, he was actually costing them additional money every day they kept him on the roster, and he was hurting more than he was helping, and keeping him on their roster at that time would have had to be at the expense of someone who'd been helping them, someone with options who didn't deserve to be sent down just because they needed a fresh arm because Smoltz couldn't get through 4 innings.

MattyHo4Life
08-21-2009, 11:35 AM
Smoltz is different, he was actually costing them additional money every day they kept him on the roster, and he was hurting more than he was helping, and keeping him on their roster at that time would have had to be at the expense of someone who'd been helping them, someone with options who didn't deserve to be sent down just because they needed a fresh arm because Smoltz couldn't get through 4 innings.

Then they should have thought about that before they gave him that contract with the incntives. He is coming off of surgery, and it takes time for a pitcher to right themselves. They gave him 40 innings before cutting him loose. Smoltz was probably better suited for the bullpen anyways.

VR
08-23-2009, 06:05 PM
Smoltz today....

5 IP
3 Hits
75 Pitches
9 K's

The funny thing? No one on here is surprised by this, at all.

Oh, and he went 1-3 with a run scored for good measure.

Dom Heffner
08-23-2009, 07:45 PM
His K/BB rate were even incredible for the short stay with Boston.

He was either really unlucky, or when he missed, he really missed.

NJReds
08-23-2009, 08:17 PM
Smoltz today....

5 IP
3 Hits
75 Pitches
9 K's

The funny thing? No one on here is surprised by this, at all.

Oh, and he went 1-3 with a run scored for good measure.

I was surprised. I saw him pitch a couple times with Boston and he didn't have great control with his slider and was getting crushed by Baltimore, Texas and the Yankees. Lefties were having a field day against him. He looked done after the Yankees demolished him.

HokieRed
08-23-2009, 09:55 PM
I was surprised. I saw him pitch a couple times with Boston and he didn't have great control with his slider and was getting crushed by Baltimore, Texas and the Yankees. Lefties were having a field day against him. He looked done after the Yankees demolished him.

I'm not at all surprised. As I posted on here at least two weeks ago, I'd seen him a couple of times on TV and he looked good: velocity fine, movement on his slider excellent. I did then, and still do, wish we'd given him a look, though I doubt he'd have come to Cinti.

MattyHo4Life
08-23-2009, 11:17 PM
I was surprised. I was hoping for the best, but you don't expect a lot from a guy that only cost you 100k and was given up on by another team.

WMR
08-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Freaking Cardinals.

Ha, truly the Anti-Reds.

Harang goes to the hospital for emergency surgery and old man Smoltz pitches a gem. :lol:

VR
08-24-2009, 12:16 AM
I was surprised. I was hoping for the best, but you don't expect a lot from a guy that only cost you 100k and was given up on by another team.

Matty, you've just been spoiled over the years with the miracle inducing Dave Duncan. The ability to get guys off the scrap heap, squeeze out talent they thought they had lost 3 years prior, and then just as importantly, let them go on there way and have someone else pay them a big contract.

HokieRed
08-24-2009, 07:30 AM
I doubt Dave Duncan had anything to do with Smoltz's performance yesterday.

Heath
08-24-2009, 07:40 AM
Matty, you've just been spoiled over the years with the miracle inducing Dave Duncan. The ability to get guys off the scrap heap, squeeze out talent they thought they had lost 3 years prior, and then just as importantly, let them go on there way and have someone else pay them a big contract.

It also helps that the Cardinals score runs....

blumj
08-24-2009, 07:55 AM
Freaking Cardinals.

Ha, truly the Anti-Reds.

Harang goes to the hospital for emergency surgery and old man Smoltz pitches a gem. :lol:

The anti-Red Sox, too. I wasn't surprised, either. They can have Brad Penny next if they want him, too.

membengal
08-24-2009, 08:01 AM
I doubt Dave Duncan had anything to do with Smoltz's performance yesterday.

I don't know that I agree. From the Post-Dispatch write-up today:


Beaten like a piñata in eight starts with the Boston Red Sox, Smoltz mystified the Padres. A side session Thursday revealed tip-offs when he worked from the stretch. On Sunday, Smoltz effectively mixed split-finger pitches with sliders, curves and a fastball.

Ahem. What's that, coaching? I have heard of such things, but seldom actually seen it when it comes to the team I follow most closely...

blumj
08-24-2009, 08:40 AM
I find it very difficult to believe that Duncan picked up mechanical flaws that John Farrell never noticed. I think it's much more likely that Smoltz was better able to correct those flaws with more consistency, and perhaps better able to get away with it when he slipped.

HokieRed
08-24-2009, 09:28 AM
I find it very difficult to believe that Duncan picked up mechanical flaws that John Farrell never noticed. I think it's much more likely that Smoltz was better able to correct those flaws with more consistency, and perhaps better able to get away with it when he slipped.

I think at this point in a hall of fame career, John Smoltz probably knows as much about his own pitching as anybody. This is not to say that an observant coach might not see something that a guy is doing that might be giving hitters just a little edge. I didn't see the game so I don't know about this, but the umpiring may have had more to do with Smoltz's success than anything. To me, as the variable governing a single game, that's a lot more likely than that Duncan did something to prevent Smoltz from tipping. Of course there's also a lot of placebo effect in coaching, too, so maybe that was important.

traderumor
08-24-2009, 09:30 AM
I was surprised. I was hoping for the best, but you don't expect a lot from a guy that only cost you 100k and was given up on by another team.One start, and it was the Padres.

traderumor
08-24-2009, 09:31 AM
Freaking Cardinals.

Ha, truly the Anti-Reds.

Harang goes to the hospital for emergency surgery and old man Smoltz pitches a gem. :lol:While I get the irony, every dog has his day.

blumj
08-24-2009, 10:11 AM
One start, and it was the Padres.

Meanwhile, Junichi Tazawa, who was pitching in the Japan Industrial League a year ago and has taken Smoltz's spot in the Red Sox rotation for the time being, somehow managed 6 shutout innings against the Yankees on Saturday, while Josh Beckett gives up a career high FIVE HRs to them last night.

MattyHo4Life
08-24-2009, 08:13 PM
One start, and it was the Padres.

One record setting game. With 7 strikeouts in a row, he set a new team record. The old record was held by Bob Gibson with 6 strikeouts.

MattyHo4Life
08-24-2009, 08:22 PM
I find it very difficult to believe that Duncan picked up mechanical flaws that John Farrell never noticed. I think it's much more likely that Smoltz was better able to correct those flaws with more consistency, and perhaps better able to get away with it when he slipped.

In an interview before he game, Smoltz said that Dave Duncan made some suggestions. Why would it be so surprising that Duncan noticed something that Farrell didn't notice? This wouldn't be the first time that Duncan helped a pitcher get better. The list goes on and on. Whether or not this is just a one time thing... well, time will tell.

MattyHo4Life
08-25-2009, 07:46 AM
The Cardinals think that Smoltz was tipping his pitches in Boston. Boston didn't know this???


SAN DIEGO -- The competition level was different. A mechanical tweak didn't hurt. But maybe one other thing went into John Smoltz's eye-catching game against the Padres on Sunday. Maybe the hitters didn't know what was coming.

Among the various explanations for the five shutout innings Smoltz pitched -- highlighted by nine strikeouts -- was that he and the Cardinals believe he may have stopped tipping his pitches to opposing hitters, particularly when he pitched from the stretch. The Cardinals' staff had the right-hander make an adjustment following a bullpen session he threw on Thursday, and the results were hard to argue with.

"It's pretty clear he was tipping his pitches," manager Tony La Russa said after the game.

St. Louis has something of a history with this. It's one of the things the club's staff looks for when trying to "fix" a pitcher, and there was some statistical evidence to back up the claim as well. With runners on base, Smoltz's numbers in Boston were far worse than with the bases empty -- batters had a 63-point higher batting average and a 123-point uptick in slugging percentage.

Additionally, tipping might explain why Smoltz's performance got worse as he got deeper into games. Opponents fared much better in their second and third turns through the batting order than the first time around.

Smoltz himself pointed more to a mechanical adjustment he made, getting his heel closer to the pitching rubber when he pitched. But he also acknowledged that he might have been giving something away to hitters.

"I very well could have been," he said. "If you tip your pitches, it's a lot easier to hit in this league."

Smoltz will start again on Friday against the Nationals in St. Louis.

RANDY IN INDY
08-25-2009, 07:59 AM
If he continues to pitch well for the Cardinals, I'd say there is something to it.

blumj
08-25-2009, 08:24 AM
In an interview before he game, Smoltz said that Dave Duncan made some suggestions. Why would it be so surprising that Duncan noticed something that Farrell didn't notice? This wouldn't be the first time that Duncan helped a pitcher get better. The list goes on and on. Whether or not this is just a one time thing... well, time will tell.
My surprise would have nothing to do with Duncan, and everything to do with Farrell.

traderumor
08-25-2009, 10:23 AM
I'm a bit skeptical of all these tipping pitches diagnoses. I'm suspicious of the placebo effect.

flyer85
08-25-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm a bit skeptical of all these tipping pitches diagnoses. I'm suspicious of the placebo effect.
IMO Smoltz just needed some more time.

I watched him pitch a couple of times with the Sox, his stuff looked very good ... he was having command problems.

membengal
08-25-2009, 10:47 AM
I'm a bit skeptical of all these tipping pitches diagnoses. I'm suspicious of the placebo effect.

yeah. Because we never see pitchers get better with St. Louis...

blumj
08-25-2009, 01:09 PM
The Cardinals think that Smoltz was tipping his pitches in Boston. Boston didn't know this???

If he was tipping, Matt Holliday would have known it, since he was still with the A's when they knocked Smoltz around.

VR
08-25-2009, 01:09 PM
Dave Duncan is nothing more than a placebo? Really?

traderumor
08-25-2009, 01:14 PM
Just to clarify, I was talking about the many diagnoses of "tipping pitches" to explain some guys turn arounds these days. This is increasing in frequency around the league. I just wasn't referring to Duncan. Further, I was drubbed myself recently for daring to claim Duncan is an expert that makes emulating the Cards pitching "model" difficult.

In other words, no intent of minimizing Duncan's genius. A bit defensive and chippy, folks.

MattyHo4Life
08-28-2009, 09:52 PM
Just to clarify, I was talking about the many diagnoses of "tipping pitches" to explain some guys turn arounds these days.

I wouldn't write off the idea that John Smoltz really was tipping his pitches just because you think too much of it. Here is an article about Smoltz tipping his pitches.


Cardinals' sideshow is quite an event

Sports Columnist Bryan Burwell
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/28/2009

As you begin to trace the zephyr stream that has led the Cardinals onto this high perch among the National League's best and hottest teams, the trail eventually will lead you to some rather unlikely places.

The most obvious trail surely leads us to the spectacular personnel moves that still have the entire NL buzzing. For other clues to the Redbirds' late-summer success, you must, of course, search in the vicinity of the top of the starting rotation, where the Big Three of Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and Joel Piñeiro have proved to be nearly unbeatable since the start of July.

But here's exactly where we veer from the obvious.

It was early Tuesday afternoon at Busch Stadium, when it was still full of the echoes of a near-empty ballpark. Batting practice was just cranking up, and the hitters were all just working up a good sweat when you saw all of the Cardinals starting pitchers come marching out of the bullpen slowly walking across the right-field grass. They were spread out, shoulder to shoulder, strutting together in a scene reminiscent of one of those classic, slow-motion scenes you see in old NBA championship highlight films.

It was 'Carp' and Wainwright, Piñeiro, John Smoltz and the injured Kyle Lohse and Todd Wellemeyer, and they had just completed one of the most significant, yet rarely noticed rituals for the starting staff — the daily bullpen side session.

Every team in baseball has a daily side session for its starting pitchers. But few teams do it quite like the Cardinals. Along with pitching coach Dave Duncan and bullpen coach Marty Mason, every starting pitcher comes out to observe his fellow starter's important between-starts shakeout session.

"When I first got here a few years ago and did my first side session, I went into the bullpen to start working, and 'Carp' and 'Waino' and all the other guys were out there too," Piñeiro said. "I was like, 'Oh man, why are they out here?' I was thinking, 'Shoot, why can't I just get out there, do my thing and be done as quick as possible?'"

It didn't take Piñeiro long to appreciate what was going on. It was the ultimate team thing. The Cardinal pitchers are big on sharing information and dispensing knowledge. This is one of the most interactive pitching staffs in baseball, with everyone practicing the simple philosophy of paying it forward.

As well-trained as Duncan and Mason's seasoned eyes are, it's so much better when an athlete also can hear vital information coming from the astute observations of another craftsman. "At first I thought it was weird," Piñeiro said, laughing.. "But now I love it. Those side sessions are great because the other guys are just picking up on stuff. They detect the slightest thing that you are doing."

So the side session that many pitchers probably use as a mundane workout to just stretch out the arm between starts, takes on a greater meaning with this Redbirds staff. It is a heightened film study session without any need for a laborious film breakdown, because the other pitchers are the ones breaking down even the most subtle tendencies of their teammates. MORE BURWELL
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It all began a number of years ago at the suggestion of Duncan, when he asked veterans Matt Morris, the late Darryl Kile, Woody Williams and Carpenter if they would mind participating in the bullpen sessions on a daily basis. "We became a group inside a group," Carpenter recalled. "You had 'Dunc' and Marty down there, but you also had a bunch of extra eyes down there trying to learn, but also trying to help, and it just caught on. You get to watch and learn different things from different guys.

"Never mind that it can help you. You can help the other guys, too. And with the quality of pitching we have here, you can watch, you can ask questions, and everyone can learn."

Smoltz, the 42-year-old graybeard who has done it all and seen it all, couldn't believe how unselfish and generous — and also how darned observant — his new teammates could be. In his first side session a week ago in San Diego, Smoltz got an eye-opening experience on the value of the Cardinals all-for-one, one-for-all collective. He thought he had already worked out all the mechanical issues that led to his early-season struggles. But what Smoltz quickly learned with the help of the collective eyes was how badly he was tipping his pitches, too.

With each pitch Smoltz threw, Carpenter, Wainwright and the other starters were basically identifying each pitch before he threw it. "When 'Carp' and the other guys were down there and they knew every pitch I'm throwing, I didn't have to look at any film of what I was doing wrong," Smoltz said. "I knew if they figured it out that easily out there, then I had to be doing the same thing in a game."

Brutus
08-28-2009, 11:22 PM
IMO Smoltz just needed some more time.

I watched him pitch a couple of times with the Sox, his stuff looked very good ... he was having command problems.

Agreed. He had a 3.5-1 K:BB ratio even in Boston this year. He was giving up a lot of homers, but was not pitching all that terrible, IMHO. I think he would have been fine after awhile.

VR
08-28-2009, 11:56 PM
Tonight....

6 IP
1Run
6 k's

traderumor
08-28-2009, 11:57 PM
I wouldn't write off the idea that John Smoltz really was tipping his pitches just because you think too much of it. Here is an article about Smoltz tipping his pitches.Not writing it off, but it is reaching magic bullet status.

MattyHo4Life
08-29-2009, 08:24 AM
Tonight....

6 IP
1Run
6 k's

This was against the same team that hit him with 5 runs in 5 innings while he was in Boston.

NJReds
08-29-2009, 08:37 AM
On MLB network last night they said that in the first side throwing session with the Cardinals, Chris Carpenter told Smoltz he was tipping his pitches and showed him what he was doing. Also, because he was using a black glove, the hitter could see how his fingers were positioned, so they switched him to a yellow glove.

Doesn't make sense to me, either, but his results are definitely better so far.

MattyHo4Life
08-29-2009, 08:53 AM
On MLB network last night they said that in the first side throwing session with the Cardinals, Chris Carpenter told Smoltz he was tipping his pitches and showed him what he was doing. Also, because he was using a black glove, the hitter could see how his fingers were positioned, so they switched him to a yellow glove.

Doesn't make sense to me, either, but his results are definitely better so far.

That is what the article that I posted above was about. Carpenter and the other Cardinals starters told Smoltz what he was throwing before he threw it.

redsfandan
08-29-2009, 08:56 AM
Thanks for posting that article MattyMo4Life. Now can you send it to the Reds?

NJReds
08-29-2009, 09:10 AM
That is what the article that I posted above was about. Carpenter and the other Cardinals starters told Smoltz what he was throwing before he threw it.

Oops. Didn't see that. Yeah, that's what they were saying.

Harold Reynolds also said he was sure that a similar thing must be going on with Josh Beckett, who allowed 7 HRs from April-July and 12 HRs in August.

VR
08-29-2009, 11:41 AM
The 'arms race' has become the 'brains' race in MLB. The ability to exploit the weaknesses of players by superior use of video and statistics analysis has become ever increasing....and I believe will only become more important as we enter the post steroid era.
The fact that Cardinal players worked to help Smoltz correct that speaks volumes to their culture. (On the flip side...the Reds could kick their arse in a team video game tournament :))

traderumor
08-29-2009, 12:26 PM
Oops. Didn't see that. Yeah, that's what they were saying.

Harold Reynolds also said he was sure that a similar thing must be going on with Josh Beckett, who allowed 7 HRs from April-July and 12 HRs in August.
Or it could just be the ups and downs of pitching. "John, you are tipping your pitches." First two starts, Pads and Nats, now the Cards pitchers are geniuses and examples for everyone else. And they say "average Reds fans" get all excited over a few positive things out of a player.

MattyHo4Life
08-29-2009, 01:12 PM
Or it could just be the ups and downs of pitching. "John, you are tipping your pitches." First two starts, Pads and Nats, now the Cards pitchers are geniuses and examples for everyone else. And they say "average Reds fans" get all excited over a few positive things out of a player.

If I was a struggling player, I would want the opinions of someone who is doing the same thing well. Right now, the Cardinals top 3 starters are all in the top 10 ERA in the league right now, so they are obviously doing something right. The more trained eyes that you have watching for a problem, the better chances you have of noticing the problems. Don't you think it would be bneficial to any pitcher on any team to get advice from his peers that are having success?

traderumor
08-29-2009, 01:29 PM
If I was a struggling player, I would want the opinions of someone who is doing the same thing well. Right now, the Cardinals top 3 starters are all in the top 10 ERA in the league right now, so they are obviously doing something right. The more trained eyes that you have watching for a problem, the better chances you have of noticing the problems. Don't you think it would be bneficial to any pitcher on any team to get advice from his peers that are having success?Of course, but that isn't the point. It is the cause-effect. Smoltz throws well against two last place teams, gets a few tips from teammates, therefore the tips from teammates must be the difference? Sorry, I'm a little harder sell than that and it is certainly premature to be making causal conclusions.

MattyHo4Life
08-29-2009, 01:42 PM
Of course, but that isn't the point. It is the cause-effect. Smoltz throws well against two last place teams, gets a few tips from teammates, therefore the tips from teammates must be the difference? Sorry, I'm a little harder sell than that and it is certainly premature to be making causal conclusions.

Last place team or not, the Nationals knocked Smoltz around pretty good while he was in Boston. They didn't do that last night.

NJReds
08-29-2009, 03:24 PM
Of course, but that isn't the point. It is the cause-effect. Smoltz throws well against two last place teams, gets a few tips from teammates, therefore the tips from teammates must be the difference? Sorry, I'm a little harder sell than that and it is certainly premature to be making causal conclusions.

So Smoltz made up the whole thing? His last start with the Sox was against the Yankees, but the mighty Orioles put a couple beatdowns on him as well.

Chip R
08-30-2009, 09:03 AM
If I was a struggling player, I would want the opinions of someone who is doing the same thing well. Right now, the Cardinals top 3 starters are all in the top 10 ERA in the league right now, so they are obviously doing something right. The more trained eyes that you have watching for a problem, the better chances you have of noticing the problems. Don't you think it would be bneficial to any pitcher on any team to get advice from his peers that are having success?


Yeah, but we have Dick Pole.