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View Full Version : Now why did Seattle trade us Wladimir Balentien???



icehole3
08-08-2009, 12:21 PM
This kid is looking pretty good to me, or am I way off base on him???

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8863/kisschimp1fq5.gif

Highlifeman21
08-08-2009, 12:26 PM
7 games?

Small sample size?

reds1869
08-08-2009, 12:35 PM
He has always had monster potential. Perhaps he just needed a change of scenery. I think they decided he would never make it in an M's uniform.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 12:39 PM
Now why did Seattle trade us Wladimir Balentien???

I am only guessing but, after seeing that Seattle over the years developed and obtained some very outstanding players, my best guess was that Seattle did not think that Balentien was one of them.

traderumor
08-08-2009, 12:42 PM
This is just the way it is in the world. Some players will thrive in any organization, others just can't make it one place but have the ability and do thrive elsewhere. I am sure the same biases and political issues arise in MLB orgs. just like any other workplace and it hinders productivity. People move on and let their abilities shine elsewhere.

CarolinaRedleg
08-08-2009, 12:56 PM
Whatever the reason, he's doing a good job thus far. Hopefully he can keep it up. If so, LF is sewn up for a while.:thumbup:

Tom Servo
08-08-2009, 01:03 PM
It's a bit early to declare him a success, but so far I am really enjoying watching him play and hopefully Dusty keeps him in the lineup so we know what to do with him going foward.

RANDY IN INDY
08-08-2009, 01:05 PM
Let's see how he does when the league starts making some "adjustments."

Falls City Beer
08-08-2009, 01:16 PM
What gives with the signature?

jojo
08-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Seattle has better options and Wlad was out of options.....

redsfandan
08-08-2009, 01:22 PM
I think it's a little soon to get too carried away. If people feel the same after the season it'll mean more. But for now, I think we just have to hope he keeps it up.

HokieRed
08-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Way too soon for any conclusions.

Falls City Beer
08-08-2009, 01:33 PM
Seattle has better options

That's debatable. It's certainly debatable long-term.


and Wlad was out of options.....

This isn't debatable.

His swing is too Wily Mo/Ruben Mateo for my taste. We'll see. If we can squeeze out a Guillen-esque season out of him, it would be, well, Jocketty-esque.

osuceltic
08-08-2009, 01:48 PM
Long swing, but seems to have a pretty good eye. Needs plenty of polish, but if he can tighten up that swing, he has a chance. Of course, we could say that about a lot of guys.

Redmachine2003
08-08-2009, 02:17 PM
This kid is looking pretty good to me, or am I way off base on him???

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8863/kisschimp1fq5.gif
Because they DFA him and had to trade him or lose him for nothing.

reds44
08-08-2009, 02:19 PM
Why did the Indians trade us Brandon Phillips?

TheNext44
08-08-2009, 02:26 PM
Mmmmm.....

.209 .260 .359 .619 in 434 PA's

might have had something to do with it.

He's done well in 7 games. Willy Taveras looked great for 34 games this season.

I like the way he's started, but he looks very raw, and could be the next Ruben Mateo as easily as the next Brandon Phillips.

jojo
08-08-2009, 02:31 PM
That's debatable. It's certainly debatable long-term.

At this point I don't think it's a big debate.

Every organization comes to the crossroads with players who have the potential to more than they currently are. Wlad could become a starting corner OFer. The Ms can make better use of his roster spot.

KoryMac5
08-08-2009, 03:14 PM
At this point I don't think it's a big debate.

Every organization comes to the crossroads with players who have the potential to more than they currently are. Wlad could become a starting corner OFer. The Ms can make better use of his roster spot.

The Reds with Homer Bailey next season.

LINEDRIVER
08-08-2009, 03:27 PM
isn't he really Wily Mo Pena after the name change??

lollipopcurve
08-08-2009, 03:29 PM
Long swing, but seems to have a pretty good eye. Needs plenty of polish, but if he can tighten up that swing, he has a chance. Of course, we could say that about a lot of guys.

Agree 100%. If he works to get better, he can be helpful. I wouldn't expect big things on a consistent basis, though.

ochre
08-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Why did the Indians trade us Brandon Phillips?
Because he refused to move back to SS? :dunno:

Spring~Fields
08-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Why did the Indians trade us Brandon Phillips?

Because the Indians had a real cleanup hitter and they fooled the Reds into believing that Phillips was actually one incognito? :)

traderumor
08-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Same reason, because Phillips was out of options and the Indians were out of patience. Of all the biases towards teams with money, options is a great equalizer to get some talent shifted at a low cost.

And 2b has been hard to fill for the Tribe ever since, even though they smugly thought they had an embarrassment of riches in their system.

Johnny Footstool
08-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Seattle got rid of Adam Jones as well.

RedEye
08-08-2009, 05:04 PM
Seattle got rid of Adam Jones as well.

And got rid of him partially because they thought they had something in Balentien at the time. Of course, that was back when Bavasi was working for the M's and not the Reds...

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Seattle got rid of Adam Jones as well.

And Shin-Soo Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera, and Luis Valbuena. All within the last few years.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2009, 05:09 PM
--Balentien went 2-for-3 with two walks and an RBI last night. He started his night with an 8-pitch walk off Tim Lincecum. He singled his next two times up against Lincecum and then walked on six pitches the final time they hooked up. "That's what hitting is all about," Dusty Baker said. "There's a big difference between hitting and slugging."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3acee8c236-2b38-4676-b679-2f5f16daeb7e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

reds44
08-08-2009, 05:21 PM
At least we're not Mariners fans?

Blitz Dorsey
08-08-2009, 05:44 PM
Seattle, who has Griffey batting cleanup occasionally, has better options than Balentien? I think not. I think they just jumped the gun and got too impatient with him. He was right behind Adam Jones as one of their top prospects a couple years ago. I would want him on my team right now over Griffey, let alone next year and in 2-3 years.

This might be one of the few bright spots of the season -- stealing Balentien away from the M's. Or we're just getting carried away and he will be nothing more than an average/below-average reserve player. I like what I see so far though. I agree with the "talk to me after the season" approach though. This kid is going to get plenty of ABs until Bruce returns (and even after he returns perhaps). We'll know exactly what we've got after the season.

jojo
08-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Seattle, who has Griffey batting cleanup occasionally, has better options than Balentien? I think not. I think they just jumped the gun and got too impatient with him. He was right behind Adam Jones as one of their top prospects a couple years ago. I would want him on my team right now over Griffey, let alone next year and in 2-3 years.

This might be one of the few bright spots of the season -- stealing Balentien away from the M's. Or we're just getting carried away and he will be nothing more than an average/below-average reserve player. I like what I see so far though. I agree with the "talk to me after the season" approach though. This kid is going to get plenty of ABs until Bruce returns (and even after he returns perhaps). We'll know exactly what we've got after the season.

I don't agree with the argument that the Ms got impatient and jumped the gun. He actually had 4 options years.

At some point all teams have to move on from a player who is out of options but not perhaps out of promise.

jojo
08-08-2009, 05:59 PM
BTW, it's not really appropriate to conflate the sins of Bavasi with a decision the current Ms FO had to make concerning the management of their roster this year and next.

Joseph
08-08-2009, 06:28 PM
It may well prove to be a steal yes, but I don't think we can suggest the M's made a mistake. As stated, at some point a team has to move on for the sake of themselves and the player involved. We did with Wily Mo for example who could never seem to get over the hump. Granted he didn't go on to become a useful major leaguer, and we got a very serviceable part for him, but the idea is not without similarities. WB need a new place, the M's accommodating that need does not make them fools.

If he stayed there he seemingly was going to amount to nothing, trading nothing for nothing is a push, not a loss.

RedEye
08-08-2009, 06:47 PM
BTW, it's not really appropriate to conflate the sins of Bavasi with a decision the current Ms FO had to make concerning the management of their roster this year and next.

I don't think there was any causality implied. I think all folks are arguing is that it was on Bavasi's watch that Balentien was ranked ahead of Adam Jones on the "do not trade" list of prospects.

jojo
08-08-2009, 06:51 PM
I don't think there was any causality implied. I think all folks are arguing is that it was on Bavasi's watch that Balentien was ranked ahead of Adam Jones on the "do not trade" list of prospects.

Bavasi would've preferred to deal Wlad for Bedard rather than Jones-the Os weren't biting on that one...

RedEye
08-08-2009, 07:30 PM
Bavasi would've preferred to deal Wlad for Bedard rather than Jones-the Os weren't biting on that one...

I see. Well, I'll obviously defer to you on all M's related stuff. Anyway, fact remains that Jones and Balentien were much more closely ranked as prospects in 2008 than they are now in 2009. Both were top-of-the-line, and the Seattle FO obviously thought that one was expendable to land Bedard.

jojo
08-08-2009, 07:43 PM
I see. Well, I'll obviously defer to you on all M's related stuff. Anyway, fact remains that Jones and Balentien were much more closely ranked as prospects in 2008 than they are now in 2009. Both were top-of-the-line, and the Seattle FO obviously thought that one was expendable to land Bedard.

Wlad was never considered in the same class as Jones. For instance, at Wlad's zenith in the Ms system, BA only had him ranked as the Ms fifth best prospect. He's always impressed with his power potential but his glaring strikezone deficiency has always caused him to be downgraded.

Saunders basically has chased at his heels in recent years.

Jones, without a doubt, was much more highly regarded both within and outside of the Ms organisation at the time of the Bedard trade.

mth123
08-08-2009, 08:16 PM
Wlad is in the best possible spot. Goes from pitchers park in very difficult division full of pitchers parks to a hitters paradise in a division filled with them. Easier league to boot. Add that the team really has no better alternative right now and he should have a fighting chance to carve out some type of niche role.

Of course the Reds will screw it up and declare him a savior, the fans will sour when he isn't a no doubt first ballot hall of famer and his success will come as a role player in St. Louis in 2 years.

The Baumer
08-08-2009, 08:41 PM
I think he is going to be nice.

RedEye
08-08-2009, 08:57 PM
Wlad was never considered in the same class as Jones. For instance, at Wlad's zenith in the Ms system, BA only had him ranked as the Ms fifth best prospect. He's always impressed with his power potential but his glaring strikezone deficiency has always caused him to be downgraded.

Saunders basically has chased at his heels in recent years.

Jones, without a doubt, was much more highly regarded both within and outside of the Ms organisation at the time of the Bedard trade.

Point(s) granted. But would you grant that last year Balentien was closer to Jones than he is now? Not equal to, but closer? Cuz that's really my essential point.

jojo
08-08-2009, 09:27 PM
Point(s) granted. But would you grant that last year Balentien was closer to Jones than he is now? Not equal to, but closer? Cuz that's really my essential point.

I'd say that last year there was more reason to optimistic about Wlad.

But their upsides were never similar/close IMHO.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2009, 09:39 PM
My hope is Balentien can develop into the next Nelson Cruz, just at a younger age.

Tom Servo
08-08-2009, 10:19 PM
It may well prove to be a steal yes, but I don't think we can suggest the M's made a mistake. As stated, at some point a team has to move on for the sake of themselves and the player involved. We did with Wily Mo for example who could never seem to get over the hump. Granted he didn't go on to become a useful major leaguer, and we got a very serviceable part for him, but the idea is not without similarities. WB need a new place, the M's accommodating that need does not make them fools.

If he stayed there he seemingly was going to amount to nothing, trading nothing for nothing is a push, not a loss.
Well put. Todd Coffey I think is also an example of a team and player needing to move on. It just wasn't going to work in Cincinnati and now he's putting together a nice year in Milwaukee. Doesn't mean the Reds were stupid to get rid of him, it was just a necessary move for both parties.

Team Clark
08-08-2009, 10:54 PM
Too soon to tell. I have stated in other threads that Balentien reminds me of a young Jose Guillen.

cincrazy
08-09-2009, 12:04 AM
Too soon to tell. I have stated in other threads that Balentien reminds me of a young Jose Guillen.

Hopefully he hits like Guillen and doesn't throw bats through clubhouse walls like Guillen.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Still a small sample size.

Still love this trade.

M2
08-10-2009, 02:33 PM
For a guy like Balentien, playing his home games in the GAB instead of at Safeco probably will make a huge difference - if for nothing else, from a confidence standpoint.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 02:35 PM
5 BBs in 20ABs in a nice start. No doubt he has power

Highlifeman21
08-10-2009, 03:21 PM
5 BBs in 20ABs in a nice start. No doubt he has power

I thought BBs were bad?

Tom Servo
08-10-2009, 03:22 PM
With Rolen now out, Wlad is pretty much my sole reason to watch each Reds game. It is indeed still a small sample size, but so far he's showing some of those skills that made him fairly highly touted.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 03:24 PM
I thought BBs were bad?that's right, damn baser clogger. Sell him to the Marlins so they can make him an everyday player. :D

LoganBuck
08-10-2009, 03:41 PM
So far, so good. His good week just goes to show the difference it makes having another competent bat in the lineup. He may not be able to sustain it, but if he does, what do you make of him going into next season? Can you go into 2010 with an outfield of Balentein, Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson/Heisey, and Bruce, with Gomes back as depth? Seems pretty risky.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 03:42 PM
if the Reds want to win in 2010 they had better have a backup plan for RF.

HokieRed
08-10-2009, 03:44 PM
So far, so good. His good week just goes to show the difference it makes having another competent bat in the lineup. He may not be able to sustain it, but if he does, what do you make of him going into next season? Can you go into 2010 with an outfield of Balentein, Taveras/Stubbs/Dickerson/Heisey, and Bruce, with Gomes back as depth? Seems pretty risky.

Not IMHO. I think we can go 1. Bruce, 2 and 3. Two of Stubbs, Heisey, and Dickerson; 4. One of Balentien, Gomes, Nix; 5. New guy who can hit the [crap] out of the ball.

LoganBuck
08-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Not IMHO. I think we can go 1. Bruce, 2 and 3. Two of Stubbs, Heisey, and Dickerson; 4. One of Balentien, Gomes, Nix; 5. New guy who can hit the s--- out of the ball.

But what if Balentien keeps coming on? The saying is never trust September stats. We have all seen that happen before. Balentien is a true enigma, if he is lightning in a bottle, great, but what happens in the cap comes off the bottle over the winter, and by May 1, 2010 he is hitting .208? Can this team afford to lean on all the in house outfielders, and can they afford to bring in someone from the outside? I don't know.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 04:06 PM
But what if Balentien keeps coming on? The saying is never trust September stats. We have all seen that happen before. Balentien is a true enigma, if he is lightning in a bottle, great, but what happens in the cap comes off the bottle over the winter, and by May 1, 2010 he is hitting .208? Can this team afford to lean on all the in house outfielders, and can they afford to bring in someone from the outside? I don't know.

In 2010, will it really matter?

Not unless they plug some of the other holes, namely SP and MI. If that's where they focus their resources in the offseason and they are able to find good solutions (ie Hudson, Webb, etc.) then they can afford to play the youngsters in the OF. If they don't address those holes, then it won't matter what they do for 2010 because they won't be contending anyway.

And if they have any hope of trying Frazier at 2B next year, he should have been in Louisville yesterday.

Stormy
08-10-2009, 04:16 PM
Not IMHO. I think we can go 1. Bruce, 2 and 3. Two of Stubbs, Heisey, and Dickerson; 4. One of Balentien, Gomes, Nix; 5. New guy who can hit the s--- out of the ball.


I'd rather let Balentien play the platoon/4th OF role, rather than just assume that we've solved our OF productivity issues. I'm glad we obtained him, but he's also shown an ability to post abysmal production for prolongued periods of time. Given the continued learning curve for Bruce, the lack of proven production from CF, and the propensity for Balentien to be unable to find first base for months at a time, our outfield could again undermine our offense for stretches of the season.

I continue to believe that we need to make the acquisition of a proven LF bat, a primary off season priority. I don't trust Wlad, Bruce and our CF platoon candidates as a viable offensive option. The good news, is that if Dusty gives him the ample available ABs for the remainder of 2009, and he continues to produce at this clip, he could allay some of those concerns.

Stormy
08-10-2009, 04:18 PM
But what if Balentien keeps coming on? The saying is never trust September stats. We have all seen that happen before. Balentien is a true enigma, if he is lightning in a bottle, great, but what happens in the cap comes off the bottle over the winter, and by May 1, 2010 he is hitting .208? Can this team afford to lean on all the in house outfielders, and can they afford to bring in someone from the outside? I don't know.

nice post. I wish I had read it before posting my reply. :beerme:

lollipopcurve
08-10-2009, 04:22 PM
they are able to find good solutions (ie Hudson, Webb, etc.)

Orlando Hudson? He will be very expensive, and there's no guarantee Phillips can play a passable SS. If he can't, you've got 2 pricey 2Bs, with one on the bench. Not advisable.

Brandon Webb? I agree that he's a great target, but he is not going to pitch in 2010. He's a long-term flyer, post shoulder surgery.

Scrap Irony
08-10-2009, 04:43 PM
I agree with Stormy. Balentien plays the role of Jeffrey Hammonds, Juan Encarnacion, and Jose Guillen, fourth OFs who pushed for more playing time with positive contributions as fourth OF. I like Bad Wlad as a platoon partner for Bruce in RF for now, with the possibility of more PT as the season wears on.

'Tis far better to have too much talent than not enough.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 04:52 PM
I agree with Stormy. Balentien plays the role of Jeffrey Hammonds, Juan Encarnacion, and Jose Guillen, fourth OFs who pushed for more playing time with positive contributions as fourth OF. I like Bad Wlad as a platoon partner for Bruce in RF for now, with the possibility of more PT as the season wears on.

'Tis far better to have too much talent than not enough.

Very true, but you have to prioritize your improvements, right?

I'll readily admit that I'm higher on Balentien on most. I do still think he needs to continue to prove himself for the rest of this season. If (and only if) he can post an OPS > .850 (or maybe even .800) the rest of the way, I might consider addressing SP and MI before I worry about the outfield this offseason.

In that scenario, I like Gomes as the 4th OF that spells Bruce (vs. lefties) and/or Balentien if he falters. While the OF might be a notch below average offensively, it will certainly be above average defensively and has the potential/upside and the youth to be way above average offensively.

Meanwhile, if you can focus your resources to address the SP and the MI, the rest of your squad may just be strong enough to support the OF offense as it stumbles through a few growing pains. That said, I still might take a cheap flyer on an older fallen star, be it Vlad or Magglio, especially if Balentien trails off towards the end of this season. Plus, if either of these scenarios fail during the year, you could consider moving Votto to LF when Alonso shows he's ready for everyday duties at 1B, which should hopefully happen at some point next season.

(On a side note, can you imagine if we had both a Vlad and a Wlad in our outfield?)

HokieRed
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
I'd rather let Balentien play the platoon/4th OF role, rather than just assume that we've solved our OF productivity issues. I'm glad we obtained him, but he's also shown an ability to post abysmal production for prolongued periods of time. Given the continued learning curve for Bruce, the lack of proven production from CF, and the propensity for Balentien to be unable to find first base for months at a time, our outfield could again undermine our offense for stretches of the season.

I continue to believe that we need to make the acquisition of a proven LF bat, a primary off season priority. I don't trust Wlad, Bruce and our CF platoon candidates as a viable offensive option. The good news, is that if Dusty gives him the ample available ABs for the remainder of 2009, and he continues to produce at this clip, he could allay some of those concerns.

Seems like this is meant as in contrast with my earlier post, but it's exactly what I was saying. For the 4th oufield spot, I'd consider 1 of Balentien, Gomes, Nix. None is, IMO, a starter, based on anything they've done to date; none should be seen as a substitute for our getting a bat from outside.

icehole3
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
I thought BBs were bad?

in Reds country BBs are more important than RBIs, probably runs scored too.

nate
08-10-2009, 05:37 PM
in Reds country BBs are more important than RBIs, probably runs scored too.

Purposeful misunderstanding and/or silliness to a degree which can't adequately be described.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 05:55 PM
Seems like this is meant as in contrast with my earlier post, but it's exactly what I was saying. For the 4th oufield spot, I'd consider 1 of Balentien, Gomes, Nix. None is, IMO, a starter, based on anything they've done to date; none should be seen as a substitute for our getting a bat from outside.

If Balentien continues to mash for the rest of the year, he could be a starter. Think Brandon Phillips in 2005.

Gomes is a 4th OF.

Nix is very replaceable.

Chip R
08-10-2009, 05:58 PM
But what if Balentien keeps coming on? The saying is never trust September stats. We have all seen that happen before. Balentien is a true enigma, if he is lightning in a bottle, great, but what happens in the cap comes off the bottle over the winter, and by May 1, 2010 he is hitting .208? Can this team afford to lean on all the in house outfielders, and can they afford to bring in someone from the outside? I don't know.


Good questions. However, this isn't September and over the weekend he's faced Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum and a Giants team that is in the thick of a playoff race. I'd rather focus on who he did it against than when he did it.

HokieRed
08-10-2009, 06:15 PM
If Balentien continues to mash for the rest of the year, he could be a starter. Think Brandon Phillips in 2005.

Gomes is a 4th OF.

Nix is very replaceable.


My claim is there is space for one of these three on a good roster. No more. I'd hope it's Wlad.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 06:16 PM
Orlando Hudson? He will be very expensive, and there's no guarantee Phillips can play a passable SS. If he can't, you've got 2 pricey 2Bs, with one on the bench. Not advisable.

They should be trying Phillips out at SS for the rest of this year. Play Gonzalez at 2B if necessary. Make decisions that will help the club beyond this season. If BP shows that he can play SS, I'd make a serious run at Hudson in the offseason- especially if Frazier hasn't sniffed AAA at that point.


Brandon Webb? I agree that he's a great target, but he is not going to pitch in 2010. He's a long-term flyer, post shoulder surgery.

Don't be so sure. He may not be TOR Brandon Webb next year, but most reports I've seen haven't written him off for next year. And I'd look at a Davis, Harden, and/or Myers on one or two year deals to boot that are heavy on incentives (especially for the latter two.)

Benihana
08-10-2009, 06:18 PM
My claim is there is space for one of these three on a good roster. No more. I'd hope it's Wlad.

I'd take Wlad and Gomes, along with an aged vet like Vlad or Magglio.

Regardless, Wlad and Gomes are both making the league minimum. There is no reason why they couldn't be your 4th and 5th OF if necessary, especially if you get rid of Willy T.

That said, (as I've said many times) I'd happily sell high on Gomes and trade him if given a decent return.

HokieRed
08-10-2009, 06:39 PM
Problem is if you have both Wlad and Gomes, plus somebody from outside who can hit, then there's not room for more than two of this list (assuming 5 outfielders): Bruce, Stubbs, Dickerson, Heisey. I want three of those, Bruce and two others.

M2
08-10-2009, 06:42 PM
They should be trying Phillips out at SS for the rest of this year. Play Gonzalez at 2B if necessary. Make decisions that will help the club beyond this season. If BP shows that he can play SS, I'd make a serious run at Hudson in the offseason- especially if Frazier hasn't sniffed AAA at that point.

You know the 2B who sort of fascinates me as possible pairing with Phillips as the SS? Brian Roberts.

Votto-Roberts-Phillips-Rolen, I bet that would be quite an IF and Roberts is a groovy #2 slot hitter.

Brutus
08-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Purposeful misunderstanding and/or silliness to a degree which can't adequately be described.

I agree with this. However, in fairness, this was the same thing happening with the post the OP was replying to. Both are extremes of purposeful misunderstanding.

fearofpopvol1
08-10-2009, 06:46 PM
You know the 2B who sort of fascinates me as possible pairing with Phillips as the SS? Brian Roberts.

Votto-Roberts-Phillips-Rolen, I bet that would be quite an IF and Roberts is a groovy #2 slot hitter.

I agree with you...but the Cubs have been REALLY fascinated with him over the last few seasons and I have a feeling would up the ante to get him. I can't see the Reds overbidding to get him over a winning Cubs team.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 07:01 PM
I agree with you...but the Cubs have been REALLY fascinated with him over the last few seasons and I have a feeling would up the ante to get him. I can't see the Reds overbidding to get him over a winning Cubs team.

I can't really see the Orioles, who appear to be on the cusp of having a very impressive collection of major league talent, willing to give up Roberts at this point. I'm not sure what we'd have to give up, but I'm willing to venture that it would make most around here balk. I'm thinking they'd want Alonso + Masset at least.

Problem is, even if you're OK with giving that up for Roberts, you'd still presumably have to shed salary (Harang/Arroyo/Cordero) and with Stewart and Alonso gone you wouldn't have much in the way of trade bait to restock the pitching staff.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Brandon Webb? I agree that he's a great target, but he is not going to pitch in 2010. He's a long-term flyer, post shoulder surgery.

Don't be so sure. He may not be TOR Brandon Webb next year, but most reports I've seen haven't written him off for next year. And I'd look at a Davis, Harden, and/or Myers on one or two year deals to boot that are heavy on incentives (especially for the latter two.)
Webb may pitch next season but we don't know how soon and how effective he'll be. I'd definitely want some safeguards in any offer to him. We'd probably have to overpay for Davis. Harden hasn't shown that he can pitch 130+ innings in back to back seasons. No thanks. Myers might be an interesting buy low target though.

Regardless, Wlad and Gomes are both making the league minimum. There is no reason why they couldn't be your 4th and 5th OF if necessary, especially if you get rid of Willy T.

That said, (as I've said many times) I'd happily sell high on Gomes and trade him if given a decent return.
Gomes is up for arbitration after the season and will likely cost more next season. Balentien isn't eligible until after next season. So Wlad should be cheaper and could fill the same role. I would've dealt Gomes for anything but now I'm not sure he'd pass through waivers.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 08:08 PM
Webb may pitch next season but we don't know how soon and how effective he'll be. I'd definitely want some safeguards in any offer to him. We'd probably have to overpay for Davis. Harden hasn't shown that he can pitch 130+ innings in back to back seasons. No thanks. Myers might be an interesting buy low target though.

Of course any contract with Webb would have to have safeguards. Jason Schmidt says hello.


Gomes is up for arbitration after the season and will likely cost more next season. Balentien isn't eligible until after next season. So Wlad should be cheaper and could fill the same role. I would've dealt Gomes for anything but now I'm not sure he'd pass through waivers.

So if he gets claimed now, you pull him back and try to trade him in the offseason. If you can't, there are worse 4th OFs that you could carry.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Of course any contract with Webb would have to have safeguards. Jason Schmidt says hello. ...
Woops, I guess I should apologize for stating the obvious. (nice attitude though)

...So if he gets claimed now, you pull him back and try to trade him in the offseason. If you can't, there are worse 4th OFs that you could carry.
When would you get more for him? In the offseason when there's alot more options? Or at the trade deadline when a team may be desperate enough to give an average prospect that's more than filer?

Will M
08-10-2009, 08:47 PM
Webb may pitch next season but we don't know how soon and how effective he'll be. I'd definitely want some safeguards in any offer to him. We'd probably have to overpay for Davis. Harden hasn't shown that he can pitch 130+ innings in back to back seasons. No thanks. Myers might be an interesting buy low target though.

Gomes is up for arbitration after the season and will likely cost more next season. Balentien isn't eligible until after next season. So Wlad should be cheaper and could fill the same role. I would've dealt Gomes for anything but now I'm not sure he'd pass through waivers.

Honestly, i want to see more of Balentien & Gomes this year before making any decisions regarding whether either is a full time starter in LF, platoon player or bench player in 2010.

Gomes could get $2-3M in arbitration. Hardly breaking the bank for a guy who can be a great platoon player vs LHP.

Stormy
08-10-2009, 09:38 PM
Seems like this is meant as in contrast with my earlier post, but it's exactly what I was saying. For the 4th oufield spot, I'd consider 1 of Balentien, Gomes, Nix. None is, IMO, a starter, based on anything they've done to date; none should be seen as a substitute for our getting a bat from outside.

Yes, I didn't phrase that well. Rather than contrasting, I was agreeing with you.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2009, 10:28 PM
in Reds country BBs are more important than RBIs, probably runs scored too.

At least BBs aren't teammate dependent like RBIs or Rs.

REDREAD
08-11-2009, 01:24 AM
My claim is there is space for one of these three on a good roster. No more. I'd hope it's Wlad.

I'm not sure I'd offer Gomes arbitration. I think I'd gamble Wlad can fill the forth OF role, cut Gomes loose and use the savings to get a real starting OF.

Now if Gomes is still out of work during spring training and willing to sign cheap, then yes, I take him.

Ron Madden
08-11-2009, 04:53 AM
I really like what I've seen from Balentien so far. I Would love to see him turn into another George Foster, but he is most likely a 4th OF.

Wouldn't mind seeing an outfield of Balentien LF, Dickerson CF and Bruce RF a few times before the end of the 2009 season.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 10:43 AM
I really like what I've seen from Balentien so far. I Would love to see him turn into another George Foster, but he is most likely a 4th OF.

People keep selling Wlad short. If he continues to produce at an > .850 OPS level for the rest of the season, he is a legitimate starting OF, period.

He is not Chris Stynes or Jon Nunnally. He had the pedigree and the tools coming in, he just couldn't put it all together. Again, if he continues to produce at a consistent level for a sustained period of time (ie the rest of this season) I believe in him.

The list of former top prospects that finally turn it on after underperforming at the big league level/switching teams keeps growing...

Paul Konerko in 1999.
Jose Guillen in 2002.
Brandon Phillips in 2005.
Adrian Gonzalez in 2006.
Carlos Pena/Josh Hamilton in 2007.
Wlad Balentien in 2009?

bucksfan2
08-11-2009, 10:52 AM
People keep selling Wlad short. If he continues to produce at an > .850 OPS level for the rest of the season, he is a legitimate starting OF, period.

He is not Chris Stynes or Jon Nunnally. He had the pedigree and the tools coming in, he just couldn't put it all together. Again, if he continues to produce at a consistent level for a sustained period of time (ie the rest of this season) I believe in him.

Paul Konerko in 1999.
Jose Guillen in 2002.
Brandon Phillips in 2005.
Adrian Gonzalez in 2006.
Carlos Pena/Josh Hamilton in 2007.
Wlad Balentien in 2009?

For arguments sake Chris Dickerson put up an OPS over 1.000 last season.

jojo
08-11-2009, 10:53 AM
Wlad will being doing well to get 250 PAs as a Red this season. That's not as definitive a number as some might think.

He's probably going to get his shot to stick with the club next spring. There's no need to circle the wagons or call up the firing squad based upon what he does in the waning summer.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 10:54 AM
For arguments sake Chris Dickerson put up an OPS over 1.000 last season.

So did Chris Stynes a while back.

But neither one ever had the pedigree or the tools. They were never thought of as top prospects with All-Star potential. They didn't tear up the minor leagues or show flashes of superstar ability.

All of the guys on my list did.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 10:59 AM
Wlad will being doing well to get 250 PAs as a Red this season. That's not as definitive a number as some might think.

He's probably going to get his shot to stick with the club next spring. There's no need to circle the wagons or call up the firing squad based upon what he does in the waning summer.

Seller's remorse?

I'm not ready to anoint Wlad as the next Vlad by any means. But I do think he should be considered a part of the future if he continues to produce for the rest of the year.

jojo
08-11-2009, 11:16 AM
Seller's remorse?

I don't understand what this means?

Benihana
08-11-2009, 11:19 AM
I don't understand what this means?

In a couple years, you might be able to assemble an All-Star team of talent that the Mariners traded away for very little ROI. The Bedard trade was obviously a killer, and Clement and Wladimir could turn out to add insult to injury.

Nugget
08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Balentien was never considered an All-Star prospect by the Mariners. He was always going to be the fifth outfielder this year, it was the injuries to Chavez and Griffey which gave him a chance to start. The Mariners themselves have gone inhouse for his replacement and so far it has been beneficial.

I don't think anyone should think of Balentien as the batting saviour for the Reds. Even with the Mariners he was able to put together a good string but just not consistently. With Clement he was already way down the depth chart with Johnson. Moore and Johjima. He was blocked at first base by Carp. And in the Bedard trade I believe that one of the pieces they ended up getting was Gutierez who looks like their CF for a long time.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 11:34 AM
Balentien was never considered an All-Star prospect by the Mariners. He was always going to be the fifth outfielder this year, it was the injuries to Chavez and Griffey which gave him a chance to start. The Mariners themselves have gone inhouse for his replacement and so far it has been beneficial.

I don't think anyone should think of Balentien as the batting saviour for the Reds. Even with the Mariners he was able to put together a good string but just not consistently. With Clement he was already way down the depth chart with Johnson. Moore and Johjima. He was blocked at first base by Carp.

I understand the Mariners' rationale behind trading these players. I'm just saying that, like the Bedard trade, it might turn out to backfire on them.


And in the Bedard trade I believe that one of the pieces they ended up getting was Gutierez who looks like their CF for a long time.

Are you seriously defending that deal? It's easily one of the three worst trades of the decade.

bucksfan2
08-11-2009, 11:41 AM
So did Chris Stynes a while back.

But neither one ever had the pedigree or the tools. They were never thought of as top prospects with All-Star potential. They didn't tear up the minor leagues or show flashes of superstar ability.

All of the guys on my list did.

It is said that Dickerson oozed tools. He has a pretty nice pedigree as well, some relative named Eric.

August surges happen quite often and you can't overlook them, but you can't make any concrete decision based upon a good 2 week stretch.

jojo
08-11-2009, 11:44 AM
In a couple years, you might be able to assemble an All-Star team of talent that the Mariners traded away for very little ROI. The Bedard trade was obviously a killer, and Clement and Wladimir could turn out to add insult to injury.

I think the Ms made the correct decision by going with Saunders over Wlad.

Here's my thoughts on the trade:


I really like this trade for the Reds.

The Ms basically get a bag of balls for a guy with zero role in their organisation and the Reds get "upside" for basically nothing.

That said, Wlad is probably a long shot to be a Red next May. He's out of options, has poor plate discipline and trouble with offspeed stuff. He's a mediocre defender as well. Basically he's a corner outfielder who can hit the ball really far but has yet to show he can do it consistently against major league pitching while failing to show he can do much of anything else.

He'll hopefully get some solid playing time this season and then get a chance to make mthe club next spring. The Reds will have Bruce, Taveras, Dickerson and the two CFers doing the sme thing. Maybe even Nix and Gomes will still be around to challenge for platoon roles.

At this point, Wlad is flintstone vitamins-i.e. cheap insurance.

Kudos to the Reds for getting him for nothing but at the same time, he's swimming against the current.

Sounds like just the type of guy who is fun to root for....

I think Wlad's upside is that of a starting corner outfielder. That said, he's got work to do.

Wlad's time in Seattle was up. He's out of options, the Ms have other options, and Wlad isn't well suited for their park given the side of the plate from which he bats... That doesn't mean Saunders is going to be a HOFer but, rather, he probably has a better chance of becoming a starter and he's better suited for their park.

I'm not sure what Bavasi's decisions have to do with the Wlad trade other than part of Bavasi's legacy as the Ms GM is an absolute failure to understand how to build a roster for Safeco.

Trading Clement also makes a lot of sense. You won't hear me lament that either.

So no, my views on the proper way to evaluate players-in this instance the significance of 200 or so PAs- isn't really colored by "seller's remorse".


At this point I don't think it's a big debate.

Every organization comes to the crossroads with players who have the potential to more than they currently are. Wlad could become a starting corner OFer. The Ms can make better use of his roster spot.

BRM
08-11-2009, 11:47 AM
It is said that Dickerson oozed tools. He has a pretty nice pedigree as well, some relative named Eric.

August surges happen quite often and you can't overlook them, but you can't make any concrete decision based upon a good 2 week stretch.

I thought that was debunked and he was not related to Eric? Maybe someone can confirm. I don't remember Dickerson ever being considered a top prospect either. A good one, yes, but not a top prospect.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 11:47 AM
It is said that Dickerson oozed tools. He has a pretty nice pedigree as well, some relative named Eric.

No, he was never a highly rated prospect. And I don't care who his relatives are- Stephen Larkin, Craig Griffey, Ozzie Canseco and Pete Rose Jr. all say hi. Besides, I don't even think he's really related to Eric in the first place.


August surges happen quite often and you can't overlook them, but you can't make any concrete decision based upon a good 2 week stretch.

Agreed- of course you can't base anything off of a 2 week stretch. But if he continues to perform this way for the remaining eight weeks of the season, he should at least be in the conversation for a starting OF spot next year. That said, I've still advocated getting a Vlad or a Magglio on a cheap one-year deal.

jojo
08-11-2009, 11:52 AM
Balentien was never considered an All-Star prospect by the Mariners. He was always going to be the fifth outfielder this year, it was the injuries to Chavez and Griffey which gave him a chance to start. The Mariners themselves have gone inhouse for his replacement and so far it has been beneficial.

I don't think anyone should think of Balentien as the batting saviour for the Reds. Even with the Mariners he was able to put together a good string but just not consistently. With Clement he was already way down the depth chart with Johnson. Moore and Johjima. He was blocked at first base by Carp. And in the Bedard trade I believe that one of the pieces they ended up getting was Gutierez who looks like their CF for a long time.

Franklin Gutierrez wasn't part of the Bedard trade.

Truthfully, Jones' presence probably wouldn't even have stopped the Ms from acquiring Gutierrez because Gutierrez has been on Blengino’s/Zduriencik's "to do list" for a good while.

Without the Bedard trade, the Ms outfield probably would've had Jones in left, FG in center and Ichiro in right. It would've been sweet.

dfs
08-11-2009, 12:05 PM
I thought that was debunked and he was not related to Eric? Maybe someone can confirm. I don't remember Dickerson ever being considered a top prospect either. A good one, yes, but not a top prospect.
I also thought Eric and Chris were not actually related. Something about pranking a reporter in Dayton, I believe.

Chris was never considered a top prospect in the sense that he got any sort of national ranking. He was always in the prospect bin where guys like Steve Smitherman or Danny Dorn lie, a potential outfielder who might turn into something.

Dickerson gave an interview earlier this year where he talked about his big turn around last year and credits it to Jay Bruce's arrival in Louisville. Bruce arrived and moved Dickerson from center to left and Dickerson started mimicing Bruce at the plate and Chris' numbers started to take off.

Now, you can't trust too much from and interview, but it's interesting to think that a synergy of prospects may actually help float all boats. In other words if Bruce never gets to the River Bats, prehaps Dickerson doesn't OPS 1.000 last year and never gets a clean shot at playing time this year.

Nugget
08-11-2009, 12:58 PM
I understand the Mariners' rationale behind trading these players. I'm just saying that, like the Bedard trade, it might turn out to backfire on them.



Are you seriously defending that deal? It's easily one of the three worst trades of the decade.

There is no way that the Bedard trade is one the three worst in the decade. Bedard has been injured but has performed fairly well when he has been on the mound. You cannot fleece everyone when you trade. If your not willing to give up a good prospect for a young pitcher you end up not trading at all.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 01:12 PM
There is no way that the Bedard trade is one the three worst in the decade. Bedard has been injured but has performed fairly well when he has been on the mound. You cannot fleece everyone when you trade. If your not willing to give up a good prospect for a young pitcher you end up not trading at all.

They didn't give up "a good prospect." They gave up FIVE.

Within one year of the deal, they had two All-Stars, a Top 5 (in all of baseball) pitching prospect, and two minor leaguers to boot for an oft-injured pitcher that has been decent in stretches "when healthy"? Even at the time of the trade, almost everyone said they gave up way too much.

My three worst trades of the decade (in no particular order):

1. 2002 Expos trade Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon and Lee Stevens.
2. 2003 Giants trade Francisco Liriano, Boof Bonser, and Joe Nathan for A.J. Pierzynski.
3. 2008 Mariners trade Adam Jones, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Kam Mickolio, and George Sherril for Erik Bedard.

Honorable Mention:

2004 Walt Jocketty's Cardinals trade Dan Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder
2005 Rangers trade Adrian Gonzalez, Termel Sledge and Chris Young for Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka, and Billy Killian.


In all of these trades, you could see (some of) the logic at the time. However when you examine what these teams gave up vs. the value that they received, they are the worst trades of the decade IMO.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2009, 03:52 PM
Speaking of Wladimir Balentien and buy low options, the DBacks sent CFer Chris Young to the minors. I would love to see the Reds go after Young. He's still only 25 years old and has a ton of potential. Just two years ago he hit 32homers, stole 27 bases, and posted a .762 OPS. Heck, just last year he had 71 extra-base hits and a solid .758 OPS but he has been horrible this year as evidenced by the DBacks optioning him to the minors. If I were Walt I would doing everything I could to acquire Young.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 04:00 PM
Speaking of Wladimir Balentien and buy low options, the DBacks sent CFer Chris Young to the minors. I would love to see the Reds go after Young. He's still only 25 years old and has a ton of potential. Just two years ago he hit 32homers, stole 27 bases, and posted a .762 OPS. Heck, just last year he had 71 extra-base hits and a solid .758 OPS but he has been horrible this year as evidenced by the DBacks optioning him to the minors. If I were Walt I would doing everything I could to acquire Young.

He is owed more than $25MM over the next four years. I'd take a flier on him if Arizona picked up his entire contract. Chances of that happening are slim and none IMO.

But I do love buy low opportunities. I'd still like to pry away Delmon Young or Elijah Dukes.

bucksfan2
08-11-2009, 04:19 PM
He is owed more than $25MM over the next four years. I'd take a flier on him if Arizona picked up his entire contract. Chances of that happening are slim and none IMO.

But I do love buy low opportunities. I'd still like to pry away Delmon Young or Elijah Dukes.

Isn't he having contact issues as well?

Tom Servo
08-11-2009, 04:38 PM
Speaking of Wladimir Balentien and buy low options, the DBacks sent CFer Chris Young to the minors. I would love to see the Reds go after Young. He's still only 25 years old and has a ton of potential. Just two years ago he hit 32homers, stole 27 bases, and posted a .762 OPS. Heck, just last year he had 71 extra-base hits and a solid .758 OPS but he has been horrible this year as evidenced by the DBacks optioning him to the minors. If I were Walt I would doing everything I could to acquire Young.
I was contemplating making a thread about acquiring Young but as mentioned, his contract really is a sticking point.

Highlifeman21
08-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Speaking of Wladimir Balentien and buy low options, the DBacks sent CFer Chris Young to the minors. I would love to see the Reds go after Young. He's still only 25 years old and has a ton of potential. Just two years ago he hit 32homers, stole 27 bases, and posted a .762 OPS. Heck, just last year he had 71 extra-base hits and a solid .758 OPS but he has been horrible this year as evidenced by the DBacks optioning him to the minors. If I were Walt I would doing everything I could to acquire Young.

But we already have a CF for next year...

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 09:53 PM
But we already have a CF for next year...
We have a bunch of centerfielders for next year. We NEED a leftfielder with power. Dukes fits the bill. He's making close to the minimum, so he's cheaper than Young, and he's shown more at the plate than Young.

Highlifeman21
08-11-2009, 10:09 PM
We have a bunch of centerfielders for next year. We NEED a leftfielder with power. Dukes fits the bill. He's making close to the minimum, so he's cheaper than Young, and he's shown more at the plate than Young.

So what do we trade to get E. Dukes?

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 10:25 PM
Well the Nats need pitching and we... probably aren't a good match. I was just saying that Dukes would be my preference out of the three for the reasons I listed.

Highlifeman21
08-11-2009, 10:26 PM
Well the Nats need pitching and we... probably aren't a good match. I was just saying that Dukes would be my preference out of the three for the reasons I listed.

So are the options Balentien, Young of the DBacks, or Dukes of the Nationals?

... b/c if so, IMO you're lookin' at 1 CF (Young) and 2 LF

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 11:08 PM
Well I think Delomon Young was mentioned too but if you only count those three than 1 CF and 2 LF sounds right to me at least as far as how the Reds would play them. Granted I'd be surprised if the Reds acquired either of the two Youngs or Dukes without overpaying.