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redsfandan
08-09-2009, 05:39 PM
After his homer today he now has 36 homers, 80 rbi, 20 sb, and a .290, .377, .613, .990 line. At his current rate he's projected to end up with 53 hrs and 29 steals. I think he has to at least be one of the top candidates. Discuss.

Jpup
08-09-2009, 07:01 PM
It's Pujols and it won't even be close.

NL OPS

Pujols 1.131 36 HR 100 RBI
Fielder .997 27 HR 98 RBI
Reynolds .990 30 HR 80 RBI
Dunn .984 30 HR 84 RBI

Tom Servo
08-09-2009, 07:15 PM
But the strikeouts!

kaldaniels
08-09-2009, 07:17 PM
This discussion begins and ends with Pujols. Shut 'er down mods.

TRF
08-09-2009, 07:32 PM
It's MVP not MBP (Most Bestest Player)

Reynolds does some things Pujols does not. He plays a more demanding position, has a running game and he has almost no protection in the lineup.

He should get consideration.

kaldaniels
08-09-2009, 07:36 PM
It's MVP not MBP (Most Bestest Player)

Reynolds does some things Pujols does not. He plays a more demanding position, has a running game and he has almost no protection in the lineup.

He should get consideration.

He should get votes from 2nd on down, no problem. He should not get a single #1 vote. Any disagreement on that one?

RedEye
08-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Reynolds should be in consideration... but he should not beat Pujols.

RedEye
08-09-2009, 07:38 PM
I think I'd rank Fielder ahead of Reynolds, too.

kaldaniels
08-09-2009, 07:41 PM
How are the D-Backs stealing these KY boys from under the Reds' nose is my question. Unfourtuneatly I know the answer.

RedEye
08-09-2009, 07:51 PM
How are the D-Backs stealing these KY boys from under the Reds' nose is my question. Unfourtuneatly I know the answer.

Better weather?

PuffyPig
08-09-2009, 07:55 PM
It's MVP not MBP (Most Bestest Player)

Reynolds does some things Pujols does not. He plays a more demanding position, has a running game and he has almost no protection in the lineup.

He should get consideration.

You are correct that it is the most valuable, not best, player, but Pujols is not just the best player in the league, he is, without a doubt, the most valuable.

Without Pujols, the first place Cards would not be in contention.

Without Reynolds, the 4th place Diamondbacks would be in 4-5th place.

The only way that areally good hitter on a poor team wins the MVP is if (1) his stats are just way better than anyone else;and (2) there isn't a real viable candidate on a contending team.

Pujols is the beat player and on a contending team.

It's really no contest right now.

Emin3mShady07
08-09-2009, 08:02 PM
Yeah, Phat Albert should really win the MVP again.

Brutus
08-09-2009, 08:32 PM
It's MVP not MBP (Most Bestest Player)

Reynolds does some things Pujols does not. He plays a more demanding position, has a running game and he has almost no protection in the lineup.

He should get consideration.

I'm more amazed that he's about as big a TRUE% player as there is lol. His true-outcome percentage is over 52%!!!

Talk about not being susceptible to a whole lot of luck - this guy definitely is one of those players that makes his own luck, good or bad.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 06:57 AM
It's Pujols and it won't even be close.

NL OPS

Pujols 1.131 36 HR 100 RBI
Fielder .997 27 HR 98 RBI
Reynolds .990 30 HR 80 RBI
Dunn .984 30 HR 84 RBI
Reynolds actually has 36 homers, the same as Pujols. His team hurts him but if you add in his 20 steals and position I think he'd be 2nd over Fielder right now. To beat Pujols when he's having a good year it helps if you have a Bonds or ARod type year. Well, Reynolds '09 looks alot like ARods MVP '03 season.

bucksfan2
08-10-2009, 08:31 AM
Reynolds actually has 36 homers, the same as Pujols. His team hurts him but if you add in his 20 steals and position I think he'd be 2nd over Fielder right now. To beat Pujols when he's having a good year it helps if you have a Bonds or ARod type year. Well, Reynolds '09 looks alot like ARods MVP '03 season.

If you want to win the MVP while playing on a poor team you have to be head and heals above the competition. You need to be putting up a Pujols type season on a losing team in order to win the MVP.

blumj
08-10-2009, 09:12 AM
I think the AL MVP race is going to be a lot more interesting again, unless Pujols gets injured or something.

TRF
08-10-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't think it's that cut and dried. Pujols has been the better hitter, but Reynolds play a great 3B. Their SB% is about the same, but Reynolds has twice the number of net steals. HR power is even. I could care less about the RBI totals.

I get that Pujols will win it hands down, but it really is a lot closer than people are saying in terms of production.

Put it this way, If Reynolds were playing for the Cardinals, they'd still be right where they are in the standings.

M2
08-10-2009, 01:44 PM
My ballot would read Pujols, Chase Utley, Kung Fu Panda, Hanley Ramirez and Prince Fielder, in that order.

Reynolds, Dunn and Adrian Gonzalez are all having excellent years, but their teams don't matter and that severely undercuts the value of what they're doing. As I've said before, if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it, it does make a noise, but no one cares.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 01:51 PM
the guy strikes out too much ... he cannot possibly be a good player.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 03:53 PM
My ballot would read Pujols, Chase Utley, Kung Fu Panda, Hanley Ramirez and Prince Fielder, in that order.

Reynolds, Dunn and Adrian Gonzalez are all having excellent years, but their teams don't matter and that severely undercuts the value of what they're doing. As I've said before, if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it, it does make a noise, but no one cares.
Sandoval and HanRam have no chance. Adrian Gonzales had a good start to the year but in the last 2-3 months he's cooled off ALOT.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 03:56 PM
Sandoval and HanRam have no chance. Adrian Gonzales had a good start to the year but in the last 2-3 months he's cooled off ALOT.

Chance at what? No one has a chance to win MVP except Albert Pujols, barring a season ending injury to Pujols tommorrow. Most subjects on here are up for debate, but there should not even be discussion on this.

Albert Pujols, your 2009 NL MVP. Debate number 2 on down, but Mr. Pujols is #1.

Funny, despite all the mention that there should be debate, I don't see anyone saying that Reynolds should get the #1 vote over Albert. If you feel that way, fess up.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't think it's that cut and dried. Pujols has been the better hitter, but Reynolds play a great 3B. Their SB% is about the same, but Reynolds has twice the number of net steals. HR power is even. I could care less about the RBI totals.

I get that Pujols will win it hands down, but it really is a lot closer than people are saying in terms of production.

Put it this way, If Reynolds were playing for the Cardinals, they'd still be right where they are in the standings.

Thats an opinion of course, and I stand on the other side of the fence. I don't see the Cards having a 2 game lead in the Central if you took away Albert and replaced him with Reynolds.

M2
08-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Sandoval and HanRam have no chance.

Not in a league with Albert Pujols, but if all they had to do was beat out Mark Reynolds then I'd say they have an excellent chance.

TRF
08-10-2009, 04:19 PM
Thats an opinion of course, and I stand on the other side of the fence. I don't see the Cards having a 2 game lead in the Central if you took away Albert and replaced him with Reynolds.

The production is very similar, and right now Albert gets a respect that Reynolds doesn't by reputation. And that's deserved on both ends.

Maybe Pujols wins hands down, heck we all know he will, but I'd take Reynolds over Utley right now in my lineup.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 04:32 PM
Chance at what? No one has a chance to win MVP except Albert Pujols, barring a season ending injury to Pujols tommorrow. Most subjects on here are up for debate, but there should not even be discussion on this.

Albert Pujols, your 2009 NL MVP. Debate number 2 on down, but Mr. Pujols is #1.

Funny, despite all the mention that there should be debate, I don't see anyone saying that Reynolds should get the #1 vote over Albert. If you feel that way, fess up.
Let's say to have a chance to be in the top 3 vote getters. Sandoval and HanRam are having good seasons but not THAT good.

On the second point, I'm just saying that I think Reynolds has a shot if he keeps this up. Despite all the love for Pujols in this thread I just don't think anyone is automatic right now. (It's almost like FCB has multiple ids and decided to camp out in this thread.)


Not in a league with Albert Pujols, but if all they had to do was beat out Mark Reynolds then I'd say they have an excellent chance.
Then I'd have to disagree with you. Really the only thing that those two have over Reynolds is how their teams are in the standings and that's it. Yeah the voters care about that but compare the stats, especially the traditional stats, and I think Reynolds wins out of those three. And I think the voters also still care alot about those traditional stats.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2009, 04:40 PM
The production is very similar, and right now Albert gets a respect that Reynolds doesn't by reputation. And that's deserved on both ends.

Maybe Pujols wins hands down, heck we all know he will, but I'd take Reynolds over Utley right now in my lineup.

The production is not at all similar. Pujols has Reynolds in OPS by 141 freaking points. I appreciate that Reynolds has some nice counting stats, albeit is below Pujols by 20 RBIs and 12 runs. But these two players are nowhere close in value, and that's even before factoring in Pujols' gold glove defenseive value compared to Reynold's negative fielding value.

That's roughly the same difference between Lance Berkman and Freddy Sanchez (In OPS).

As far as hitting goes, there is nobody even approaching Pujols' value. The Cards would likely be in 2nd place if not for Pujols. He is THAT good. He gets respect for reputation, and because he is consistently better than everyone every year.

westofyou
08-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Anyone who is trying to take the MVP away from Albert at this time must be watching a different season than I have been watching.

I've seen a lot of Mark Reynolds this year, that said Albert is playing on a different level than him and anyone else in the game right now. He's heads and shoulders above everyone else, I can see that, even if there is a bird on a bat gracing his shirt.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 04:44 PM
The production is not at all similar. Pujols has Reynolds in OPS by 141 freaking points. I appreciate that Reynolds has some nice counting stats, albeit is below Pujols by 20 RBIs and 12 runs. But these two players are nowhere close in value, and that's even before factoring in Pujols' gold glove defenseive value compared to Reynold's negative fielding value. ...

If it wasn't up to the voters you'd have a point. BUT most of the voters care more about those traditional counting stats than stats like OPS. As far as alot of them are concerned you may as well not even mention OPS. And there goes part of your argument.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2009, 04:52 PM
If it wasn't up to the voters you'd have a point. BUT most of the voters care more about those traditional counting stats than stats like OPS. As far as alot of them are concerned you may as well not even mention OPS. And there goes part of your argument.

Okay, firstly, Pujols is killing in counting stats too (especially the triple crown stats).

Secondly, voters aren't so completely archaic anymore that they can't even process simple stats like OPS. If my argument was based on VORP or KRISP or something, then you might have me.

But I'm talking about a stat that can be found on GABP's scoreboard (or at least the factors that build into it). It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Pujols getting on base 6% of the time more often then Reynolds is a good thing.

If Reynolds wants to overtake Pujols and his associated reputation, he not only needs to match Pujols in counting stats, but he needs to surpass him, and he needs to be in the same constallation in rate stats.

Not only is he not matching Pujols in all of the above, but he's actually considerably behind him in everything but homers. Dunner is smacking lots of bombs too, but I can guarantee that he wont be garnering any attention for MVP votes. Not to mention that Pujols is leading his team to the playoffs while Reynolds is trying to stay ahead of the Padres. That type of thing is considered just as much as some of the counting stats.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm still waiting...does anyone want to attempt to declare that Reynolds should be the MVP? If not what is this discussion about?

Hopefully we can all agree.

1) Pujols will be and deserves the MVP.

2) Mark Reynolds is having a great year and will pick up some votes from 2nd on down.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 05:05 PM
I think I said that most of the voters care MORE about the traditional counting stats. NOT that they'd ignore a stat like OPS altogether. I don't think I said that Pujols doesn't get the edge anywhere either. Just that Reynolds has a shot if he keeps this up. I think the voters would notice a 3rd baseman that goes 50/25. For people to suggest that he shouldn't even be in the top 5 vote getters is funny.

M2
08-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Let's say to have a chance to be in the top 3 vote getters. Sandoval and HanRam are having good seasons but not THAT good.

So you're saying Reynolds' 149 OPS+ and 8.5 RC/27 is better than HanRam's 154 OPS+ and 9.1 RC/27? And from a SS to boot? It is slightly better than Panda's 142 OPS+ and 7.8 RC/27, but Panda's being asked to carry an entire offense by himself, which makes him more valuable in my book.

And, unlike Reynolds, their contributions are making a difference. I wouldn't waste an MVP vote on a player on a bad team. Great performance? Sure. Valuable? Only in theory, not in practice. If MVP voters want to treat it like it's the HR+RBI award, that's not my concern. Reynolds wouldn't be getting a vote from me.

M2
08-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Anyone who is trying to take the MVP away from Albert at this time must be watching a different season than I have been watching.

I've seen a lot of Mark Reynolds this year, that said Albert is playing on a different level than him and anyone else in the game right now. He's heads and shoulders above everyone else, I can see that, even if there is a bird on a bat gracing his shirt.

Ditto. Albert's as close to a mortal lock for a unanimous win as anybody in recorded history.

TRF
08-10-2009, 05:12 PM
I'm still waiting...does anyone want to attempt to declare that Reynolds should be the MVP? If not what is this discussion about?

Hopefully we can all agree.

1) Pujols will be and deserves the MVP.

2) Mark Reynolds is having a great year and will pick up some votes from 2nd on down.

If the award were handed out today? sure.

I don't give a ton of credence to RBI's as a stat. Past that their counting stats are actually very similar except for walks, and as I stated Pujols gets a respect that Reynolds hasn't earned yet. Hits, doubles, triples and HR's all very close or equal. Reynolds has more SB's and plays a tougher position. And from all accounts, he's a very good defender.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 06:09 PM
So you're saying Reynolds' 149 OPS+ and 8.5 RC/27 is better than HanRam's 154 OPS+ and 9.1 RC/27? And from a SS to boot? It is slightly better than Panda's 142 OPS+ and 7.8 RC/27, but Panda's being asked to carry an entire offense by himself, which makes him more valuable in my book.

And, unlike Reynolds, their contributions are making a difference. I wouldn't waste an MVP vote on a player on a bad team. Great performance? Sure. Valuable? Only in theory, not in practice. If MVP voters want to treat it like it's the HR+RBI award, that's not my concern. Reynolds wouldn't be getting a vote from me.
Again, do you think the majority of the voters will be judging players based on a non-traditional stat like RC/27? I don't. You can send an email to MLB and all of the voters and complain about how much the voters overvalue stats like homers but that's all you can do. It's not up to us who wins it, it's up to them.

I was a little surprised that you made the statement that I put in bold. That kind of thinking is a little like only paying attention to one stat like homers and ignoring everything else. ;)

There's still almost two months left in the season so alot can still happen. But all I'm saying is that Reynolds has a shot. That's all. (Come to think of it, does George Grande have a RedsZone id? :rolleyes: )

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Again, do you think the majority of the voters will be judging players based on a non-traditional stat like RC/27? I don't. You can send an email to MLB and all of the voters and complain about how much the voters overvalue stats like homers but that's all you can do. It's not up to us who wins it, it's up to them.

I was a little surprised that you made the statement that I put in bold. That kind of thinking is a little like only paying attention to one stat like homers and ignoring everything else. ;)

There's still almost two months left in the season so alot can still happen. But all I'm saying is that Reynolds has a shot. That's all. (Come to think of it, does George Grande have a RedsZone id? :rolleyes: )

You build your case on traditional stats, yet Sir Albert is 1,1, and 3 in the triple crown categories. No shot. No chance. No how. Pujols wins.

westofyou
08-10-2009, 06:33 PM
Again, do you think the majority of the voters will be judging players based on a non-traditional stat like RC/27? I don't. You can send an email to MLB and all of the voters and complain about how much the voters overvalue stats like homers but that's all you can do. It's not up to us who wins it, it's up to them.

I was a little surprised that you made the statement that I put in bold. That kind of thinking is a little like only paying attention to one stat like homers and ignoring everything else. ;)

There's still almost two months left in the season so alot can still happen. But all I'm saying is that Reynolds has a shot. That's all. (Come to think of it, does George Grande have a RedsZone id? :rolleyes: )

If a voter leans on traditional stats then you can bet the 200 K's that reynolds generates will scare the Buster Olenays away. My bet is he doesn't get in the top 4.

As for having to be a Cardinal fan to appreciate Albert if that's the case then I guess I'm a Cardinal fan, I appreciate good baseball players and I recognize great ones, with no predjudice.

M2
08-10-2009, 06:47 PM
Again, do you think the majority of the voters will be judging players based on a non-traditional stat like RC/27?

I think they'll come at it from a million different angles. I'm just providing the information. Hanley Ramirez is having a better year at the plate than Mark Reynolds, he just doesn't play in a silly park. Panda's pretty close.

I do think a lot of voters will consider it more value to be a SS with huge numbers (dig that .348 BA on Hanley) than a 3B. I also think Panda's absolute lack of offensive support, and crazy great nickname, will garner him a lot of support. He's put that team on his back.


I was a little surprised that you made the statement that I put in bold. That kind of thinking is a little like only paying attention to one stat like homers and ignoring everything else. ;)

No, it's kind of like awarding the league's most valuable player trophy to someone who's performance is elevating his team to challenge for the league title. Mark Reynolds has great numbers, so does Adam Dunn, so does Adrian Gonzalez. Great numbers and a season in the toilet gets you a season in the toilet. If your team doesn't matter then neither do you.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 06:50 PM
You build your case on traditional stats, yet Sir Albert is 1,1, and 3 in the triple crown categories. No shot. No chance. No how. Pujols wins.
Well, let's see. There's still almost two months left in the season. To me right now Pujols is 1st and Reynolds 2nd. But alot can happen in the last two months.

If a voter leans on traditional stats then you can bet the 200 K's that reynolds generates will scare the Buster Olenays away. My bet is he doesn't get in the top 4.

As for having to be a Cardinal fan to appreciate Albert if that's the case then I guess I'm a Cardinal fan, I appreciate good baseball players and I recognize great ones, with no predjudice.
And you're not the only one who appreciates, recognizes, and respects great players. I'm really surprised at the amount of people automatically (strongly) dismissing any chance that Reynolds has to win it. It just sounds like the mere thought is blasphemy to some.

M2
08-10-2009, 06:56 PM
It just sounds like the mere thought is blasphemy to some.

No, we just disagree and think others are more deserving.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 07:01 PM
Well that's not how it sounds M2, at least to me.

Put another way, keeping in mind that there are two months left in the season and anything can happen in those two months, would you say that noone has a shot at winning the MVP over Pujols?

And I don't mean who would win now but who could have a shot at winning when the season is all over.

M2
08-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Put another way, keeping in mind that there are two months left in the season and anything can happen in those two months, would you say that noone has a shot at winning the MVP over Pujols?

That's a totally different point from whether a guy on a stinker of a team deserves serious consideration.

For the record, I haven't been to the future, but Albert Pujols is practically three standard deviations ahead of the next best player in the league in terms of OPS and he's not doing anything he can't maintain. It's going to take a Herculean effort to overtake him.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 07:23 PM
I'll say it. No one has a shot except Pujols.

cincrazy
08-10-2009, 08:24 PM
I think it IS blasphemy. Not because of anything Mark Reynolds is doing, but because Albert Pujols is THAT FREAKING GOOD.

The guy is pretty darn close to Barry Bonds level in the early part of this decade. There's no way in the world he doesn't win the award barring a blown knee or some other freak accident.

TRF
08-10-2009, 08:31 PM
That's a totally different point from whether a guy on a stinker of a team deserves serious consideration.

For the record, I haven't been to the future, but Albert Pujols is practically three standard deviations ahead of the next best player in the league in terms of OPS and he's not doing anything he can't maintain. It's going to take a Herculean effort to overtake him.

And that OPS is driven by his OBP. He's getting a respect from pitchers he's more than earned from years of producing at well, his level.

But really the ONLY difference between them is 27 BB's and 6 doubles. Maybe i'm not valuing those BB's as much as I know I should, and I'm not saying Pujols shouldn't win it, but NONe of the other guys are out producing Reynolds, ESPECIALLY if you consider defense. Not Hanley, not Gonzales, Not Utley.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 08:49 PM
And that OPS is driven by his OBP. He's getting a respect from pitchers he's more than earned from years of producing at well, his level.

But really the ONLY difference between them is 27 BB's and 6 doubles. Maybe i'm not valuing those BB's as much as I know I should, and I'm not saying Pujols shouldn't win it, but NONe of the other guys are out producing Reynolds, ESPECIALLY if you consider defense. Not Hanley, not Gonzales, Not Utley.

RBI's while being team-dependent can help show how "valuable" a player has been to his team. Without going into the value of RBI debate, realize Pujols has 20 more RBI than Reynolds and is first in the league in ribbies. Thats relavent in the MVP voting, whether we like it or not.

westofyou
08-10-2009, 08:51 PM
And that OPS is driven by his OBP. He's getting a respect from pitchers he's more than earned from years of producing at well, his level.

But really the ONLY difference between them is 27 BB's and 6 doubles. Maybe i'm not valuing those BB's as much as I know I should, and I'm not saying Pujols shouldn't win it, but NONe of the other guys are out producing Reynolds, ESPECIALLY if you consider defense. Not Hanley, not Gonzales, Not Utley.

He leads MLB in slugging...by .69 points.... yet his OPS is driven by his OB%?

Ok, if you say so.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 08:54 PM
And that OPS is driven by his OBP. He's getting a respect from pitchers he's more than earned from years of producing at well, his level.

But really the ONLY difference between them is 27 BB's and 6 doubles. Maybe i'm not valuing those BB's as much as I know I should, and I'm not saying Pujols shouldn't win it, but NONe of the other guys are out producing Reynolds, ESPECIALLY if you consider defense. Not Hanley, not Gonzales, Not Utley.

Sorry to harp about this...but the difference you mention equates to Pujols getting on base 33 more times than Reynolds. Which leads to Pujols being first in OBP and Reynolds being 17th in the NL.

TRF
08-10-2009, 08:59 PM
He leads MLB in slugging...by .69 points.... yet his OPS is driven by his OB%?

Ok, if you say so.

6 doubles. thats the difference in their SLG, 6 doubles.

TRF
08-10-2009, 09:01 PM
Sorry to harp about this...but the difference you mention equates to Pujols getting on base 33 more times than Reynolds. Which leads to Pujols being first in OBP and Reynolds being 17th in the NL.

Does every get that I'm not saying Pujols isn't the MVP?

I'm saying IMO Reynolds is 2nd, and can make a run at a better season by the end of the year.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2009, 09:04 PM
6 doubles. thats the difference in their SLG, 6 doubles.

Seriously, you could just as easily make the same argument that Freddy Sanchez is as good an offensive player as Lance Berkman.

The gaps between the two sets of players is virtually the exact same.

westofyou
08-10-2009, 09:04 PM
6 doubles. thats the difference in their SLG, 6 doubles.
Not to quibble.... but 6 times 2 plus 11 extra singles

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/7/7f72a62def0003d1749dd06aa4168d87.png

TRF
08-10-2009, 09:10 PM
Since SLG is dependent on AB's and NOT PA's, yes, his OPS is OBP driven to a large extent. Pujols BB's lower his AB totals giving him the higher BA and SLG. And no, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But if they had the same number of BB's that SLG would be a lot closer correct?

And while Pujols gets to beat up on teams weaker than the Cards, the DBacks are looking up at better teams, with better pitching.

And it's 8 singles, not 11, at least according to ESPN.

M2
08-10-2009, 09:27 PM
And that OPS is driven by his OBP. He's getting a respect from pitchers he's more than earned from years of producing at well, his level.

His SLG is 70 points better than anyone else in the league too. That's a monstrous gap.


But really the ONLY difference between them is 27 BB's and 6 doubles. Maybe i'm not valuing those BB's as much as I know I should, and I'm not saying Pujols shouldn't win it, but NONe of the other guys are out producing Reynolds, ESPECIALLY if you consider defense. Not Hanley, not Gonzales, Not Utley.

Reynolds' defense is mediocre at best. Ramirez and Panda are in the same boat, though Ramirez plays SS so being able to hold down SS and produce the way he does is an enormous asset. Gonzalez plays sterling defense at 1B, in fact he might be what keeps Pujols from winning another Gold Glove this season. And Utley is a fantastic defender. If we take defense into account, he vaults well past Reynolds (and at a 145 OPS+ and 9.2 RC/27 he was already even with or slightly ahead of Reynolds in terms of offense).

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 07:10 AM
Does every(one) get that I'm not saying Pujols isn't the MVP?

I'm saying IMO Reynolds is 2nd, and can make a run at a better season by the end of the year.
I was saying the same thing for the first 3 pages.


Reynolds' defense is mediocre at best. ... Gonzalez plays sterling defense at 1B, in fact he might be what keeps Pujols from winning another Gold Glove this season. ...
Yep Reynolds defense is below average at a more demanding position. While part of the reason Gonzalez may win the Gold Glove this year is that his defense and the defense of Pujols have gone in opposite directions. According to Fielding Runs Above Average based on UZR Gonzalez was a little below average before this season and is above average this season. Pujols was above average before and is now only average. So while Reynolds defense doesn't help him neither does Pujols since he plays an easier position and all. At least not this year if we want to count defense too.

kaldaniels
08-11-2009, 11:13 AM
With all due respect Dan you started a thread with a question that everyone seemingly agrees on the answer to, yet then built a case around the opposing opinion. I think had the thread been something as simple as - reynolds having a great year- alot of this discussion wouldn't have been needed.

westofyou
08-11-2009, 11:48 AM
With all due respect Dan you started a thread with a question that everyone seemingly agrees on the answer to, yet then built a case around the opposing opinion. I think had the thread been something as simple as - reynolds having a great year- alot of this discussion wouldn't have been needed.

The next topic of discussion will be... Can Batman beat Superman. I say no, the caped crusader is a skilled warrior and an able adversary, but the man from Krypton has a skillset not matched in the superhero world. Superman in a walkover and a surefire MVSH this year.

kaldaniels
08-11-2009, 11:57 AM
The next topic of discussion will be... Can Batman beat Superman. I say no, the caped crusader is a skilled warrior and an able adversary, but the man from Krypton has a skillset not matched in the superhero world. Superman in a walkover and a surefire MVSH this year.

Agreed. Batman would get trounced.

TRF
08-11-2009, 12:40 PM
The next topic of discussion will be... Can Batman beat Superman. I say no, the caped crusader is a skilled warrior and an able adversary, but the man from Krypton has a skillset not matched in the superhero world. Superman in a walkover and a surefire MVSH this year.

Ain't nothing in the world like snark to make a poster feel like an idiot for presenting a topic for conversation.


awe. some.

westofyou
08-11-2009, 01:36 PM
Ain't nothing in the world like snark to make a poster feel like an idiot for presenting a topic for conversation.


awe. some.

Blasphamy, you must be a closeted Cardinals fan or something, how non-traditional of you.

blumj
08-11-2009, 01:45 PM
Ain't nothing in the world like snark to make a poster feel like an idiot for presenting a topic for conversation.


awe. some.
If you let snark make you feel like an idiot, the snark terrorists win.

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 08:21 PM
With all due respect Dan you started a thread with a question that everyone seemingly agrees on the answer to, yet then built a case around the opposing opinion. I think had the thread been something as simple as - reynolds having a great year- alot of this discussion wouldn't have been needed.
Maybe I should have been a little more clear in the title/opening post. I think if Reynolds keeps this up he deserves serious consideration. It's as simple as that.

If you let snark make you feel like an idiot, the snark terrorists win.Do they win if you're not sure if you want to waste time starting discussion about another player/topic?

Nah, the "snark terrorists" haven't won. I think it's a safe bet that I'll throw something else out there that won't be received well too. Around here it's just a matter of time.

cincrazy
08-11-2009, 10:39 PM
Maybe I should have been a little more clear in the title/opening post. I think if Reynolds keeps this up he deserves serious consideration. It's as simple as that.
Do they win if you're not sure if you want to waste time starting discussion about another player/topic?

Nah, the "snark terrorists" haven't won. I think it's a safe bet that I'll throw something else out there that won't be received well too. Around here it's just a matter of time.

I didn't have a problem with the thread. Anyone on pace for 50+ homers is clearly having an MVP type season. Hell, A-Rod won the award a few years ago with similar numbers on a crappy Rangers team.

But I think this just shows how unbelievable great Albert Pujols is. Most years, most eras, this would be a legitimate question. But Pujols, in the minds of fans and probably sportswriters, is going to be the runaway choice.

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 10:49 PM
I didn't have a problem with the thread. Anyone on pace for 50+ homers is clearly having an MVP type season. Hell, A-Rod won the award a few years ago with similar numbers on a crappy Rangers team.

But I think this just shows how unbelievable great Albert Pujols is. Most years, most eras, this would be a legitimate question. But Pujols, in the minds of fans and probably sportswriters, is going to be the runaway choice.
Maybe the best post in this thread. Reynolds '09 looks alot like Arods mvp '03 to me too.

cincyinco
08-12-2009, 03:31 AM
The next topic of discussion will be... Can Batman beat Superman. I say no, the caped crusader is a skilled warrior and an able adversary, but the man from Krypton has a skillset not matched in the superhero world. Superman in a walkover and a surefire MVSH this year.

Actually, I have this comic book in real life! Its from 1954 or 55 I think.. I'd have to go dig it out. But in the particular issue the man of steel and the caped crusader battle it out over some lame argument, destroying massive amounts of property in the process..

Until, guess who, robin some how steps in and is the voice of reason, and as I recall Superman and Batman shake hands and come to their senses and are friends once again.

Complete cheese, but that's how I remember the plot going in the already played out scenario.

Sorry to derail the thread.

redsfandan
08-12-2009, 04:59 AM
... Until, guess who, robin some how steps in and is the voice of reason, and as I recall Superman and Batman shake hands and come to their senses and are friends once again. ...
So does that mean that cincrazy is Robin? :p:

cincrazy
08-12-2009, 07:33 AM
So does that mean that cincrazy is Robin? :p:

I think I've found the answer to my Halloween costume this year.

Too bad there's not a Robin smiley face.