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View Full Version : Arroyo and Harang clear waivers



Benihana
08-10-2009, 05:35 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9917258/Source:-Reds'-Harang,-Arroyo-clear-waivers

No suprise really.

TheNext44
08-10-2009, 05:45 PM
This is actually good news. If a teamed had claimed them, the Reds could only work out a deal with that team. Now they are free to shop them to any team.

nate
08-10-2009, 05:48 PM
This is actually good news. If a teamed had claimed them, the Reds could only work out a deal with that team. Now they are free to shop them to any team.

Yep.

The Dodgers really need a starter right now.

reds44
08-10-2009, 05:49 PM
This is actually good news. If a teamed had claimed them, the Reds could only work out a deal with that team. Now they are free to shop them to any team.
Unless you are of the mindset that if they were claimed we would have let them walk.

RedLegSuperStar
08-10-2009, 05:49 PM
I think the surprise will be if they get dealt. Personally I'd rather Arroyo go then Harang but if this team is hurting for money and think their are better options that will soon hit free agency then do it. If they are not adding payroll though I don't get the Rolen trade if they are paying his full 11 million next season. I wish this team had some kind of plan.

Tom Servo
08-10-2009, 05:50 PM
My feeling is still that Harang has some value and shouldn't necessarily be sold at his lowest value. Basically, I don't just want to give him away.


Arroyo however, I'd give up for a bag of balls.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 05:53 PM
I think both can significantly improve their value with 2-3 more good outings before the end of the month.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 06:06 PM
Honestly I would expect that neither has much trade value

Benihana
08-10-2009, 06:09 PM
Honestly I would expect that neither has much trade value

If Arroyo strings together 2-3 more good starts, and the Sox continue to get desperate enough, Bronson and Theo's bromance may just cause Theo to panic and overpay.

Who knows? He's done it before.

Brutus
08-10-2009, 06:09 PM
Honestly I would expect that neither has much trade value

I'm still not sure about Arroyo, although right now, there are a lot of teams getting antsy for pitching help.

Perhaps it's fair to say neither might not have much value in terms of getting much in return, but as far as simply taking the salaries off the Reds' hands, they might be able to pull that off.

Personally, I'd trade Arroyo to anyone that will take him for a warm heartbeat, and keep Harang less I get something of value in return.

Kc61
08-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Honestly I would expect that neither has much trade value


Issue isn't trade value. Issue is whether anyone will take the contract of either of them. If the Reds want a meaningful player return, the Reds will have to pay much cash in the deal.

Harang and Arroyo were signed before the big decline in FA contracts last winter. And both have slipped in performance. The result is a mismatch -- the contracts no longer fit the pitchers.

The harsh reality is that the likely interest will be for Harang and nobody will offer much more than salary relief. In Arroyo's case, the likelihood is that the Reds would have to pay a considerable part of the contract in any trade.

I don't see Bob paying much money for the privilege of shedding Bronson. So that deal is less likely to happen.

The question is whether Bob will basically give Harang away to reduce the team's payroll commitments.

My answer is probably yes. Harang's numbers the last two years may be an aberration, but he is a fly ball pitcher in a home run paradise and, all emotions aside, the deal probably has to be made.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2009, 06:16 PM
Harang is still a solid big league pitcher. The only way I'd trade him is if I get a good prospect or two in return.

REDREAD
08-10-2009, 06:20 PM
I guess I don't see the point in giving either player away.

Likewise for Weathers. I hope we get a decent prospect for him. I'm not expecting a Jay Bruce type, but a decent prospect.

For everyone bemoaning the contracts, don't they expire at the end of 2010 anyhow?
If we give Bronson away, are we going to get anyone better on the FA market at the same price? Not likely, since the Reds have to overpay people to come here.

I'm all for trading anyone if we get fair value, but I'm not going to help LA, Boston or any contender by giving them Harang or Arroyo. Those teams need pitching help more than we need salary relief. Once Walt gets a reputation for just giving players away, he's not going to be a in a good bargaining position for the future (much like the Pirates, who get lowballed all the time).

Benihana
08-10-2009, 06:23 PM
I guess I don't see the point in giving either player away.

Likewise for Weathers. I hope we get a decent prospect for him. I'm not expecting a Jay Bruce type, but a decent prospect.

For everyone bemoaning the contracts, don't they expire at the end of 2010 anyhow?
If we give Bronson away, are we going to get anyone better on the FA market at the same price? Not likely, since the Reds have to overpay people to come here.

I'm all for trading anyone if we get fair value, but I'm not going to help LA, Boston or any contender by giving them Harang or Arroyo. Those teams need pitching help more than we need salary relief. Once Walt gets a reputation for just giving players away, he's not going to be a in a good bargaining position for the future (much like the Pirates, who get lowballed all the time).

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Pirates got anything but lowballed this year (see the Sanchez-Alderson trade and the rest of their deadline deals.)

Kc61
08-10-2009, 06:30 PM
Harang is still a solid big league pitcher. The only way I'd trade him is if I get a good prospect or two in return.


It would hurt, but the deal probably needs to be made.

Over the last two years Harang is 12-30 (W-L) with an
ERA of about 4.6. The NL league average ERA this year for a starting pitcher is 4.32. He's allowed 57 homers in 2008 and 2009 combined so far. Even considering the GABP effect, Harang has -- generously -- been an average starter the last two years. Most people would likely say below average.

His best attribute is his sturdiness. He throws a ton of games and innings and he has great mechanics so he seldom misses a turn. But for how long will he be effective given all the innings he's compiled? He's thrown over 1,300 innings.

On top of this, he is only signed for one more year and then there is an option. If they keep him, he costs $12.5 million next year and then has a $2 million buyout reportedly. (If the Reds picked up his option after 2010, the salary amounts are even higher.) So Harang is likely gone after next year anyway.

Harang seems like a great guy and teammate and he would be a huge loss in terms of the community and the Reds' identity. But in terms of dollars and cents and being able to put together the best team, a trade of his contract makes sense, even if the player return is modest.

Brutus
08-10-2009, 06:31 PM
Agreed, although I'd argue that the Pirates got anything but lowballed this year (see the Sanchez-Alderson trade and the rest of their deadline deals.)

I think they were lowballed on Bay last year. Lowballed on Mclouth this year. I thought the Morgan-Burnett trade was silly. And though I won't pretend Adam LaRoche should fetch a whole lot, they sure did not get much, either.

I'm just not impressed with many of these deals they've done in the past year. The Sanchez trade was a good one. And though I think Ronny Cedeno is atrociously awful offensively (much worse than Jack Wilson), and throwing in Ian Snell to boot, I do think Jeff Clement was a good pickup.

And giving away John Grabow for Kevin Hart? Eh.

Color me unimpressed with a majority of those deals. I like their idea to gut the team and start from scratch. I just don't know that they got too much quality overall, but rather a lot of quantity.

PuffyPig
08-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Issue isn't trade value. Issue is whether anyone will take the contract of either of them.

A players trade value is made up of two factors:

(1) a players ability;and
(2) a player's contract status.

You can't talk trade value without considering his contract.

Strikes Out Looking
08-10-2009, 06:46 PM
If you trade either one of them, you (actually Jocketty) better darn well have a plan to replace the 200 innings each of them will throw in 2010 regardless of ERA. Those innings are not easy to replace, especially in the bandbox Linder, Allen and Bowden built.

Brutus
08-10-2009, 06:50 PM
If you trade either one of them, you (actually Jocketty) better darn well have a plan to replace the 200 innings each of them will throw in 2010 regardless of ERA. Those innings are not easy to replace, especially in the bandbox Linder, Allen and Bowden built.

In terms of Arroyo, being an "innings eater" is not worth double-digit millions, in my honest opinion. I like Bronson. I think he's a good dude, and would be a tremendous asset if not for the price. But, I'll sacrifice some innings for paying a guy over $10 mil to sport a 3-year average 4.80 FIP.

Kc61
08-10-2009, 07:00 PM
A players trade value is made up of two factors:

(1) a players ability;and
(2) a player's contract status.

You can't talk trade value without considering his contract.


The term trade implies a player swap. My point is that the Reds aren't getting much in the way of players for either Harang or Arroyo because of their contracts.

The issue is whether it is worth dealing them for salary relief.

Kc61
08-10-2009, 07:02 PM
If you trade either one of them, you (actually Jocketty) better darn well have a plan to replace the 200 innings each of them will throw in 2010 regardless of ERA. Those innings are not easy to replace, especially in the bandbox Linder, Allen and Bowden built.

This is true. Of course, neither Harang nor Arroyo was built for GABP, they are both fly ball pitchers at this point. So there are people out there who are better fits and would be cheaper.

But you are correct that the replacements must be found and obtained, the Reds can't move these guys and sit still.

TheNext44
08-10-2009, 07:17 PM
I'd rather trade Harang, since I think the Reds could get some decent talent for him, without having to add any salary relief. Arroyo would require the Reds pay this year's salary at the very least, and even then, he wouldn't get much in return.

I know the prevailing opinion is that Harang is a solid, TOR or near TOR pitcher, but he really isn't that much better than Arroyo.

The last three years, these are their numbers (these so not include Arroyo's career year.)

Harang: 28-36 4.26 ERA 1.29 WHIP 1.4 HR/9 8.0 K/9 3.59 K/BB
Arroyo: 34-37 4.64 ERA 1.42 WHIP 1.3 HR/9 6.5 K/9 2.19 K/BB

And the last two years:

Harang: 12-30 4.63 ERA 1.40 WHIP 1.5 HR/9 7.7 K/9 3.24 K/BB
Arroyo: 25-22 4.88 ERA 1.44 WHIP 1.4 HR/9 6.4 K/9 2.04 K/BB

Basically, they both have been solid middle of the rotation starters, with Harang being a bit better, but even less so over the last two years. Harang's peripherals are better, but that has not translated into that much better production these past two years.

Going forward, in 2010, Harang should pitch much better than Arroyo, but since he has not done so by that much these last two years, it's hard to conclude that he will.

I'd rather take the better prospects and more money and keep Arroyo, then hope that Harang finds his grove for 2010.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 07:23 PM
I'd rather trade Harang, since I think the Reds could get some decent talent for him, without having to add any salary relief. Arroyo would require the Reds pay this year's salary at the very least, and even then, he wouldn't get much in return.

I know the prevailing opinion is that Harang is a solid, TOR or near TOR pitcher, but he really isn't that much better than Arroyo.

The last three years, these are their numbers (these so not include Arroyo's career year.)

Harang: 28-36 4.26 ERA 1.29 WHIP 1.4 HR/9 8.0 K/9 3.59 K/BB
Arroyo: 34-37 4.64 ERA 1.42 WHIP 1.3 HR/9 6.5 K/9 2.19 K/BB

And the last two years:

Harang: 12-30 4.63 ERA 1.40 WHIP 1.5 HR/9 7.7 K/9 3.24 K/BB
Arroyo: 25-22 4.88 ERA 1.44 WHIP 1.4 HR/9 6.4 K/9 2.04 K/BB

Basically, they both have been solid middle of the rotation starters, with Harang being a bit better, but even less so over the last two years. Harang's peripherals are better, but that has not translated into that much better production these past two years.

Going forward, in 2010, Harang should pitch much better than Arroyo, but since he has not done so by that much these last two years, it's hard to conclude that he will.

I'd rather take the better prospects and more money and keep Arroyo, then hope that Harang finds his grove for 2010.

I agree that at this point, you can probably expect similar production out of the two. However I do think that the perception of Harang is probably higher around the league, due to Harang's consistency over the past 2-3 years and Arroyo's lack of it.

That said, I think both could significantly improve their trade value with strong performances this month if not for the rest of the season (and be moved in the offseason.) Either way, I would not trade both, and I'd want some kind of value if I traded either one.

FWIW, I'd prefer to trade Cordero if he'd waive his NTC. Sell HIGH

puca
08-10-2009, 07:58 PM
Chances are that if a team were interested in taking on Arroyo and/or Harang at their salaries they would have claimed them. Other clubs must have known that they had a decent chance of the Reds simply letting them go a la Alex Rios.

To trade Arroyo and/or Harang now, the Reds would probably have to pitch in some of the money due and couldn't expect much back.

RedFanAlways1966
08-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Arroyo, 2007-2009:

July, Aug, Sept
> 36 GS, 233.2 IP, 231 H, 89 ER
> 173 K, 64 BB, 25 QS (69.4%)
>> 3.43 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 19-11 record

(Above incl. July only for 2009) Teams in the playoffs look for a seasoned guy who can try to lead their team to the postseason in the 2nd half. Jocketty should showcase the above-numbers to interested parties. While the 2nd half numbers are not drop dead, they are pretty good and should be showcased for a doable trade (salary dump, invest elsewhere).

So far since July 1 this year Arroyo has the same kind of numbers.

KoryMac5
08-10-2009, 09:21 PM
We may see one of Arroyo or Harang dealt, maybe the Red Sox miss Bronson. I am sure after getting drubbed 4 games by the Yankees, Sox nation is in a state of panic right now.