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redsfandan
08-10-2009, 06:52 PM
White Sox Acquire Alex Rios
By Eddie Schmid [August 10 at 5:36pm CST]

According to the New York Times' Tyler Kepner, the White Sox have acquired Alex Rios from the Blue Jays. It's a straight waiver claim, so the Blue Jays will receive nothing in return. Says Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi:

"This allows us to get out from under a contract and do more to address our club."

The 28-year-old Rios was due roughly $60MM more on the seven-year contract he signed last April, which will take him through the 2014 season with a club option for 2015. Rios is hitting .264/.317/.424 in 479 plate appearances for the Jays this season. With the Jake Peavy acquisition already in the books, that means White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf has taken on over $100MM in future contracts for the Sox.

To lose Rios' fat contract is a major relief for the re-building Blue Jays, while the Sox add a relatively stable long-term piece to their outfield. This could also potentially spell the end for Jermaine Dye as a member of the Sox, as he is due to be a free agent this offseason.

BRM
08-10-2009, 06:54 PM
All it took was money.

M2
08-10-2009, 07:02 PM
U.S. Cellular is a HR hitting dream and Rios probably plays CF for the ChiSox for the rest of the year.

The Blue Jays may yet go the way of the Expos.

redsfandan
08-10-2009, 07:02 PM
Hmmm maybe we'll be able to get Dye without giving up Bailey after all.

Benihana
08-10-2009, 07:03 PM
Yep, nice move for the Sox.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd love to have Kenny Williams as my GM. It's good to be a White Sox fan these days.

It's too bad this move didn't happen two weeks ago. Probably could've gotten the Jays to agree to pay more of Rolen's salary without giving up a Stewart in the process.

Tom Servo
08-10-2009, 07:14 PM
Are the Jays ever going to pull the plug on Ricciardi?

jojo
08-10-2009, 07:16 PM
Wowsers.

reds1869
08-10-2009, 07:29 PM
I can't believe the Jays didn't even get a bag of balls. JPR makes Bowden look like Einstein.

fearofpopvol1
08-10-2009, 07:37 PM
Wow. All it took was cash. Unbelievable. The cheap Reds would never make a splash like this anyhow.

corkedbat
08-10-2009, 07:38 PM
I can't believe the Jays didn't even get a bag of balls. JPR makes Bowden look like Einstein.

Unless he's dealing with Walt Jocketty, then he doesn't look that bad. Too bad there isn't a Walt Jocketty out there for Walt to deal with.

flyer85
08-10-2009, 07:44 PM
for nothing

JaxRed
08-10-2009, 07:46 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

Blitz Dorsey
08-10-2009, 07:48 PM
I think the vocal minority of Rios supporters on this board now understand what a lot of us were saying: Rios has absolutely no value with that contract. Zero. The Jays literally had to give him away.

Another case of people getting too caught up into "5 tools" ... nevermind all of them are dull. Give me a player with three sharp tools anyday.

Blitz Dorsey
08-10-2009, 07:50 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

Rolen would not have been placed on waivers. Well, if he was and someone claimed him, the Jays wouldn't have let him go unless they got good players in return. They knew that Rolen at $11 million in 2010 wasn't all that bad of a contract and it's a short contract. Those LTC can really strap teams for several years and that's why Rios was dumped and why Rolen would not have been. Rios' contract runs through 2014. Rolen's contract runs through 2010.

Rojo
08-10-2009, 07:51 PM
I think the Fed is backstopping the contract.

RedLegSuperStar
08-10-2009, 07:53 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

Rolen asked to be traded.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Yep, nice move for the Sox.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd love to have Kenny Williams as my GM. It's good to be a White Sox fan these days.


I think you'd love any Reds GM more if the team had an extra $100 million to throw around. Rios has a freaking terrible contract.

redsmetz
08-10-2009, 07:56 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

And you know this how? And you know no other team in the AL wouldn't have claimed him? I'm not overly familiar with the Jays system, but I'm guessing since they took EE, they didn't have a 3Bman ready to insert in the linep.

I see apples and oranges here, frankly.

LvJ
08-10-2009, 08:00 PM
Awesome deal. I'm rooting for the White Sox this year.

They know how atleast put some effort into winning.

PuffyPig
08-10-2009, 08:04 PM
Yep, nice move for the Sox.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd love to have Kenny Williams as my GM. It's good to be a White Sox fan these days.



This has little to do with the GM and everything to do with the Owners ability/desire to take on a bloated salary.

Joseph
08-10-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm kind of surprised by this. You'd think they could get something in return.

KoryMac5
08-10-2009, 08:19 PM
I think Kenny Williams is demonstrating why he is one of the best GM's in baseball. He's always looking for moves to improve his ballclub and is not afraid to pull the trigger. Getting Peavy at the deadline and Rios for nothing is a stroke of genius.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Awesome deal. I'm rooting for the White Sox this year.

They know how atleast put some effort into winning.

So... in your equation effort = money. Gimme a break.

IslandRed
08-10-2009, 08:23 PM
I'm kind of surprised by this. You'd think they could get something in return.

If I'm way upside-down in my house and someone offers to buy it for what I owe, I could care less if he throws in a toaster. :p:

Highlifeman21
08-10-2009, 08:37 PM
U.S. Cellular is a HR hitting dream and Rios probably plays CF for the ChiSox for the rest of the year.

The Blue Jays may yet go the way of the Expos.

I wish Rios was playing CF for the Reds for the rest of the year.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 08:42 PM
I think Kenny Williams is demonstrating why he is one of the best GM's in baseball. He's always looking for moves to improve his ballclub and is not afraid to pull the trigger. Getting Peavy at the deadline and Rios for nothing is a stroke of genius.

I like the Peavy deal, but I have a feeling that the $60 million owed Rios won't look so good in a few years unless Williams continues to have an extra $100 million to work with every off season.

Stormy
08-10-2009, 08:48 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

Agreed. We had 100% of the leverage, and no undue urgency to make the deal.

kaldaniels
08-10-2009, 08:57 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

Absolute nonsense.

Homer Bailey
08-10-2009, 09:11 PM
Rios is in no way worth that contract. I would not support the Reds doing what the White Sox did. If we had Chicago type money, then maybe, but Toronto is lucky to get away from that deal.

M2
08-10-2009, 09:14 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.

You might be right, though Rios was a much longer-term commitment and I suspect that was Toronto's hang up with him.

The odd thing is they probably let Rios walk on a contract he most certainly can earn because of the insanely bad deal they gave Vernon Wells.

jojo
08-10-2009, 09:29 PM
I think you'd love any Reds GM more if the team had an extra $100 million to throw around. Rios has a freaking terrible contract.

Rios' contract is a good one.

jojo
08-10-2009, 09:31 PM
The odd thing is they probably let Rios walk on a contract he most certainly can earn because of the insanely bad deal they gave Vernon Wells.

This is exactly the issue. It's like treating pancreatic cancer by removing a kidney.

dsmith421
08-10-2009, 09:33 PM
So... in your equation effort = money. Gimme a break.

No. Williams is creative and not afraid to make bold moves to acquire premium talent, even if it means moving prospects. I think Chicago is one of the few teams in baseball that understands how overvalued minor league talent is and will cash in to help the big club.

hebroncougar
08-10-2009, 09:42 PM
Rios' contract is a good one.

For Rios it is. Not for the team that has to pay him. Granted he's an upgrade for the White Sox in CF, but that's not saying much.

jojo
08-10-2009, 09:48 PM
For Rios it is. Not for the team that has to pay him. Granted he's an upgrade for the White Sox in CF, but that's not saying much.

His contract is fair for the team that gets to pay him.

M2
08-10-2009, 09:49 PM
No. Williams is creative and not afraid to make bold moves to acquire premium talent, even if it means moving prospects. I think Chicago is one of the few teams in baseball that understands how overvalued minor league talent is and will cash in to help the big club.

Yep.

Also, Williams believes in tools - speed, power, defense - and is willing to let toolsy players find their stride when OB-centric GMs get a little nervous. That's how he grabbed Jermaine Dye for chump change. It's why he went after Alexei Ramirez.

I've really come to appreciate Williams in recent years. He's not always right, but he's always aggressive and he always shoots big.

M2
08-10-2009, 09:51 PM
For Rios it is. Not for the team that has to pay him. Granted he's an upgrade for the White Sox in CF, but that's not saying much.

I'm reasonably certain that when Rios finishes that contract, it will be a widely held opinion that he was a bargain and that he deserves a raise.

RedsManRick
08-10-2009, 09:57 PM
According to Fangraphs, Rios has been 3.3, 4.6, and 5.5 wins above replacement the last three years and just over a win this year despite his struggles. In free agency, a win costs about $4.5M, plus the prospects that go along with signing a good player. Now, even if you account for a depressed market, you're getting a 28 year old who has averaged over 4 wins a season for the price of less than 3. And even if he's just a 2.5 win player, it's not like that's a horrible deal.

In a weak AL Central, and because they also acquired Peavy, the Sox have a real good shot. A playoff appearance basically pays for both Peavy and Rios the rest of the seasons. Meanwhile, you're looking at a team with Scott Podsednik as their everyday CF and with an aging RF who will leave via free agency after the season. Kudos to Kenny Williams for taking advantage of a buy-low opportunity and realizing that this was his window to capitalize on. 4 win players don't grow on trees and Kenny Williams got a young, high ceiling replacement for Jermaine Dye without giving up picks or prospects.

If I'm Vernon Wells, I'd have a hard time looking in the mirror right now.

Homer Bailey
08-10-2009, 09:59 PM
$72M for 104 OPS bat? Nooooo thank you.

Rojo
08-10-2009, 10:05 PM
His contract is fair for the team that gets to pay him.

It's fair if you use the last few years as a guage. The next few years may prove very different.

hebroncougar
08-10-2009, 10:07 PM
According to Fangraphs, Rios has been 3.3, 4.6, and 5.5 wins above replacement the last three years and just over a win this year despite his struggles. In free agency, a win costs about $4.5M, plus the prospects that go along with signing a good player. Now, even if you account for a depressed market, you're getting a 28 year old who has averaged over 4 wins a season for the price of less than 3. And even if he's just a 2.5 win player, it's not like that's a horrible deal.

In a weak AL Central, and because they also acquired Peavy, the Sox have a real good shot. A playoff appearance basically pays for both Peavy and Rios the rest of the seasons. Meanwhile, you're looking at a team with Scott Podsednik as their everyday CF and with an aging RF who will leave via free agency after the season. Kudos to Kenny Williams for taking advantage of a buy-low opportunity and realizing that this was his window to capitalize on. 4 win players don't grow on trees and Kenny Williams got a young, high ceiling replacement for Jermaine Dye without giving up picks or prospects.

If I'm Vernon Wells, I'd have a hard time looking in the mirror right now.

Pecota has him at 2.5, 4.5, and 2.9 the last three years. Also has him worth a total of $24 million through the year 2015, including this year. I don't think there is any way he'll be worth the balance he's owed, unless there is a huge unforeseen turnaround, and to date, he's regressing, not improving. Yes, he's an upgrade over what they have, but what would he have cost last year in free agency, what would he cost after this year in free agency?

jojo
08-10-2009, 10:08 PM
It's fair if you use the last few years as a guage. The next few years may prove very different.

It's fair based upon what he is projected to do the next few years. My statement wasn't looking in the mirror but rather turning on the fog lights...

Rojo
08-10-2009, 10:13 PM
It's fair based upon what he is projected to do the next few years. My statement wasn't looking in the mirror but rather turning on the fog lights...

No, its projected on what he's supposed to do plus the expected cost of such production. It's the latter where your looking in the rearview.

KoryMac5
08-10-2009, 10:25 PM
No. Williams is creative and not afraid to make bold moves to acquire premium talent, even if it means moving prospects. I think Chicago is one of the few teams in baseball that understands how overvalued minor league talent is and will cash in to help the big club.

Williams however will cash it in on the right players.

RedsManRick
08-10-2009, 10:27 PM
Firstly, it looks like BP and Fangraphs disagree violently about Rios' defense last year, to the tune of 32 runs. But my understanding is that UZR is the gold standard these days, which is what FanGraphs uses. Even if you split the difference and call him a +8 defender, it basically comes down to how well he ages. If he loses a half a win per year, he won't be worth it. If he can sustain a 3 win level of production, he will.

Time will tell I suppose.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 10:34 PM
No. Williams is creative and not afraid to make bold moves to acquire premium talent, even if it means moving prospects. I think Chicago is one of the few teams in baseball that understands how overvalued minor league talent is and will cash in to help the big club.

I think we're talking past each other. I agree with you that Kenny Williams is bold, and at times savvy, as a GM. What I disagree about is that this deal is a measure of that. I think it's more about his ability to spend $ like there's no tomorrow. Give Walt $100 million and I think he makes some credible moves as well.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 10:36 PM
According to Fangraphs, Rios has been 3.3, 4.6, and 5.5 wins above replacement the last three years and just over a win this year despite his struggles. In free agency, a win costs about $4.5M, plus the prospects that go along with signing a good player. Now, even if you account for a depressed market, you're getting a 28 year old who has averaged over 4 wins a season for the price of less than 3. And even if he's just a 2.5 win player, it's not like that's a horrible deal.

In a weak AL Central, and because they also acquired Peavy, the Sox have a real good shot. A playoff appearance basically pays for both Peavy and Rios the rest of the seasons. Meanwhile, you're looking at a team with Scott Podsednik as their everyday CF and with an aging RF who will leave via free agency after the season. Kudos to Kenny Williams for taking advantage of a buy-low opportunity and realizing that this was his window to capitalize on. 4 win players don't grow on trees and Kenny Williams got a young, high ceiling replacement for Jermaine Dye without giving up picks or prospects.

If I'm Vernon Wells, I'd have a hard time looking in the mirror right now.

Okay... when you put it that way, I have to agree. This may be a boffo deal for the Sox. For the Reds? I still think it would have been a mismanagement of funds they don't have. Worse than the Rolen deal? No.

RedEye
08-10-2009, 10:38 PM
Of course, I suppose we also have to remember how differently contracts look a few years down the road. I think most people really liked Aaron Harang's contract when it was signed, for example. And, while it's not as bad as Bronson Arroyo's follow-up deal, it is now pretty much an anchor on the roster--even if Harang returns to his pre-contract levels.

Marc D
08-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Give Walt $100 million and I think he makes some credible moves as well.


Tavaras extension?

;)

REDREAD
08-10-2009, 11:37 PM
This deal shows how bad the Reds got played on Rolen. Blue Jays wanted to dump as many of their bad contracts as they could. As dumb as it was for ChiSox to take on over 50 million in obligations, at least it didn't cost the Jays anything.

Rolen would have been placed on waivers and we could have grabbed him for free.


Disagree. Rios was owed 60? Million more.

Rolen was only owed for 1.5 more years. Not as much urgency to dump his contract by the Jays. Also, the cheap Reds wanted to dump EdE in the process and have the Blue Jays pay part of Rolen's salary.
So, just waiting for waivers and trying to get Rolen for free wasn't an option.

Look at it this way, the Reds basically sold the two relievers for a lot of money .. (EdE's salary plus the cash the Blue Jays kicked in).

Brutus
08-11-2009, 12:02 AM
I love the job Williams is doing for Chicago. Make no mistake about that.

However... this move shows no competence or creativity to pull off. It only shows a higher budget. That's it. He simply made a waiver claim and got lucky that Toronto decided to let the player go for nothing in return. That is nothing more than having money to spend and getting lucky that he was put in a position to spend it.

That's nothing against Ken Williams. I think he's doing a fantastic job. Getting Peavy out from everyone's noses was a terrific trade. But this... this was sheer luck (and payroll flexibility).

jojo
08-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Firstly, it looks like BP and Fangraphs disagree violently about Rios' defense last year, to the tune of 32 runs. But my understanding is that UZR is the gold standard these days, which is what FanGraphs uses. Even if you split the difference and call him a +8 defender, it basically comes down to how well he ages. If he loses a half a win per year, he won't be worth it. If he can sustain a 3 win level of production, he will.

Time will tell I suppose.

BP's defensive metrics aren't credible.

jojo
08-11-2009, 12:12 AM
No, its projected on what he's supposed to do plus the expected cost of such production. It's the latter where your looking in the rearview.

The market would have to violently correct for his contract to be an albatross if he meets his projected production.

Rojo
08-11-2009, 01:04 AM
The market would have to violently correct for his contract to be an albatross if he meets his projected production.

If you expect contracts will keep inflating up like they have over the last few years then that $12.5 in 2014 looks like a bargain. If they drift down year-over-year, not so much.

Emin3mShady07
08-11-2009, 01:19 AM
Sweet:jump::KoolAid: Rick beat me to all of the technical stuff of why it was a great pickup for the Sox. I am loving it.

Topcat
08-11-2009, 01:41 AM
Reds market with Bruce and Stubbs etc make you avoid this guys 60 mill owed honestly. But part of me goes if only we stuck our necks out and got Rolen and Rios in the Blue jays trade. This message board would have gone over the full tilt boogie limit :D

TheNext44
08-11-2009, 02:12 AM
His contract is fair for the team that gets to pay him.

It's fair to the team, but they have to be able to afford him, and need him.

That's why it was a great move for the ChiSox and would have been a bad move by the Reds, if given the chance.

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 08:27 AM
Alot of the value of Rios is due to his defense. Is a plus defender that has a career OPS under .800 really worth THAT much? Maybe if he bounces back to '06-'08 levels. But the Vernon Wells contract is much uglier. Peavy is expected back at the end of August and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does the next couple years outside of Petco.

But I'll be really curious about whether this means Dye won't be back.

jojo
08-11-2009, 08:38 AM
Of course, I suppose we also have to remember how differently contracts look a few years down the road. I think most people really liked Aaron Harang's contract when it was signed, for example. And, while it's not as bad as Bronson Arroyo's follow-up deal, it is now pretty much an anchor on the roster--even if Harang returns to his pre-contract levels.

I disagree. Harangs contract was a good one at the time and it still is.

If the Reds aren't even allowed to pay market rates for anyone without the contract being considered an anchor, well, I think it's time to start rooting for another team.

jojo
08-11-2009, 08:41 AM
If you expect contracts will keep inflating up like they have over the last few years then that $12.5 in 2014 looks like a bargain. If they drift down year-over-year, not so much.

The odds that contracts are going to drift down continually for a many years in a row probably aren't high. Baseball is making too much money and the the markets-whether it be the fair one (free agency) or the unfair one (the control years)- aren't so saturated with talent that teams won't desire guys with 6 years of service time.

redsfandan
08-11-2009, 08:44 AM
Yeah I've never had a problem with the contract for Harang. The extension for Arroyo and the contract for Cordero - yes. But not Harang especially if he returns to '06/'07 levels.

RedsManRick
08-11-2009, 09:23 AM
The Arroyo contract was bad because we already had him locked up cheaply for a few years when it was signed and we offered the deal at the peak of his value. The Cordero contract speaks for itself.

edabbs44
08-11-2009, 09:28 AM
The Arroyo contract was bad because we already had him locked up cheaply for a few years when it was signed and we offered the deal at the peak of his value. The Cordero contract speaks for itself.

Yep, logic left the building on the days that those deals were finalized.

M2
08-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Seems to me optimal contract performance is something bad teams (and their fans) obsess over while good teams (and their fans) focus on getting talent.

Obviously you want the team to cut good contracts, but it's only a means to an end which can be achieved even if those means aren't optimized. In fact, it almost always is achieved without those means being optimized.

Benihana
08-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Seems to me optimal contract performance is something bad teams (and their fans) obsess over while good teams (and their fans) focus on getting talent.

Obviously you want the team to cut good contracts, but it's only a means to an end which can be achieved even if those means aren't optimized. In fact, it almost always is achieved without those means being optimized.

To be fair, optimal contract performance does have to be given more serious consideration by small market teams due to the lack of resources, but I agree with the premise.

I would've loved to have Rios.

blumj
08-11-2009, 10:13 AM
Seems to me optimal contract performance is something bad teams (and their fans) obsess over while good teams (and their fans) focus on getting talent.

Obviously you want the team to cut good contracts, but it's only a means to an end which can be achieved even if those means aren't optimized. In fact, it almost always is achieved without those means being optimized.
Living in Boston, you can type that with a straight face? ;)
Seriously, the Jays traded a CFer with a big contract but were stuck getting value for a corner OFer with a big contract. And, really, that's almost just one more way they're being kicked in the butt by the Wells contract.

M2
08-11-2009, 10:22 AM
Living in Boston, you can type that with a straight face? ;)

Sox fans obsess over everything. Their list of concerns is endless. Every one of them channels an inner Bob Lobel.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2009, 10:38 AM
Seems to me optimal contract performance is something bad teams (and their fans) obsess over while good teams (and their fans) focus on getting talent.

Obviously you want the team to cut good contracts, but it's only a means to an end which can be achieved even if those means aren't optimized. In fact, it almost always is achieved without those means being optimized.

I agree with this, which is why I don't hate the Cordero contract. He is overpaid, but at least the talent AND the performance are there backing it up.

Emin3mShady07
08-11-2009, 10:47 AM
But I'll be really curious about whether this means Dye won't be back.

Chicago is at an interesting crossroads with both Dye and Jim Thome. Now that I think about it Dye is probably gone after the year because he is a right handed hitter and with the acquisition of Rios, the white sox have plenty of those, but no left handed power threat. I'd rather have Thome anyways, without regard to handedness, because he is still a better hitter than Dye with his consistent .380-.400 OBp year in and year out. The White Sox have just took on 28 million between Rios and Peavy, and will have to pay raises to Carlos Quentin, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Matt Thornton, Scott Linebrink, and Bobby Jenks. They have roughly 40 million dollars leaving the payroll after this season and the majority of that will be chewed up with the aforementioned contracts and raises, so I don't think the sox will have the cash to pick up Dye's option and very rarely when a team doesn't pick up an option does that player come back to that team.

So my bet is that Dye is gone and an FA after this season.

_Sir_Charles_
08-11-2009, 11:09 AM
I think Kenny Williams is demonstrating why he is one of the best GM's in baseball. He's always looking for moves to improve his ballclub and is not afraid to pull the trigger. Getting Peavy at the deadline and Rios for nothing is a stroke of genius.

I just don't get this line of thinking. How is it a stroke of genius to pay (or should I say OVERpay) a ridiculous contract for a over-rated player? The White Sox didn't acquire Rios for "nothing" as many here have said. They'll be crippled by that contract for a LONG time. And that amount of money is FAR from "nothing". I know they didn't have to deal any players back, but this still reaks as a desperation move IMO.

As for the Peavy signing...that's a gamble. His contract is also pretty large and he's currently shelved with an injury. But at least he's a top of the line starter when healthy. I kind of like the gamble on Peavy...not so much on Rios. Ridiculously overpaid...roster cripplingly overpaid.

M2
08-11-2009, 11:19 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking. How is it a stroke of genius to pay (or should I say OVERpay) a ridiculous contract for a over-rated player? The White Sox didn't acquire Rios for "nothing" as many here have said. They'll be crippled by that contract for a LONG time. And that amount of money is FAR from "nothing". I know they didn't have to deal any players back, but this still reaks as a desperation move IMO.

As for the Peavy signing...that's a gamble. His contract is also pretty large and he's currently shelved with an injury. But at least he's a top of the line starter when healthy. I kind of like the gamble on Peavy...not so much on Rios. Ridiculously overpaid...roster cripplingly overpaid.

They'll sure be crippled by having a productive player through his prime on a contract they can easily afford.

Of course they seem to foolishly believe they're a baseball team and not a self-pity association.

jojo
08-11-2009, 11:24 AM
I think the Whitesox FO loses $12M worth of change in their sofa cushions every year.

Rios isn't going to bankrupt them.

BRM
08-11-2009, 11:26 AM
How is it a roster crippling contract if the White Sox can easily pay it?

TheNext44
08-11-2009, 11:26 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking. How is it a stroke of genius to pay (or should I say OVERpay) a ridiculous contract for a over-rated player? The White Sox didn't acquire Rios for "nothing" as many here have said. They'll be crippled by that contract for a LONG time. And that amount of money is FAR from "nothing". I know they didn't have to deal any players back, but this still reaks as a desperation move IMO.

As for the Peavy signing...that's a gamble. His contract is also pretty large and he's currently shelved with an injury. But at least he's a top of the line starter when healthy. I kind of like the gamble on Peavy...not so much on Rios. Ridiculously overpaid...roster cripplingly overpaid.

They won't be crippled by that contract because they have a big enough payroll to absorb it. Plus they really needed a decent CF.

This contract would have crippled the Reds and other mid-market teams, who most years are at new payroll capacity just to field a decent team. Unlike the White Sox, they can't take on long term, big contracts, no matter how good the player is.

M2
08-11-2009, 11:32 AM
I think the Whitesox FO loses $12M worth of change in their sofa cushions every year.

Rios isn't going to bankrupt them.

Exactly, people are projecting financial impotence on the ChiSox which the franchise does not suffer from.

BRM
08-11-2009, 11:33 AM
Must be nice to be able to go out and acquire talent without worrying so much about the financials.

blumj
08-11-2009, 11:33 AM
I think the Whitesox FO loses $12M worth of change in their sofa cushions every year.

Rios isn't going to bankrupt them.
Seriously, this is exactly how good teams with high payrolls improve. You take a position you're bad at and overpay a little to be good at it. Every player doesn't have to be worth every penny he's making if you have players who are worth more than they're making.

RedsManRick
08-11-2009, 11:34 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking. How is it a stroke of genius to pay (or should I say OVERpay) a ridiculous contract for a over-rated player? The White Sox didn't acquire Rios for "nothing" as many here have said. They'll be crippled by that contract for a LONG time. And that amount of money is FAR from "nothing". I know they didn't have to deal any players back, but this still reaks as a desperation move IMO.

As for the Peavy signing...that's a gamble. His contract is also pretty large and he's currently shelved with an injury. But at least he's a top of the line starter when healthy. I kind of like the gamble on Peavy...not so much on Rios. Ridiculously overpaid...roster cripplingly overpaid.

Crippled? Really? Wow...

Over the past 3 years, Rios has been more productive than Jermaine Dye. Dye has been a better hitter, but defense counts too and Dye has been a very poor defender while Rios has been above average. Dye makes $11.5M this year. They have basically swapped out Dye for Rios -- a player more likely to productive moving forward. It's funny how the "moneyball" crowd are now the ones who have to remind people of the value of defense...

Payroll-wise, Rios replaces Dye, even swap. Both Contreras and Dotel come off the books after this year -- there's Peavy's money. Peavy gets really expensive in a few years, but that's on him, not Rios.

Just resign Thome for the same you're paying him now and without adding any payroll, the core of their 2010 team looks like:

SS Ramirez
3B Beckham
LF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
RF Rios
C Pierzynski
2B Getz
CF Podsednik

SP Peavy
SP Buehrle
SP Floyd
SP Danks

CL Jenks

That's a playoff team. Williams added production without adding costs in 2010 to capitalize on a window of competitiveness. If only Reds' GMs had the same foresight. Instead they'd rather spend $12M on a good but not great closer (15% of our payroll) and $10M on replacement level spare parts -- talk about crippling!!

nate
08-11-2009, 11:35 AM
Aren't the Sox off the hook for some big contracts next year?

I think they can handle it.

princeton
08-11-2009, 11:37 AM
it would have been humorous/pathetic to hear Ricciardi threatening to pull Rios back unless Sox set up a trade.

we've been there.

Emin3mShady07
08-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Yes.

Jose Contreras 10 Million
Jim Thome 13 Million
Jermaine Dye 11 Million
Octavio Dotel 6 million
Mike MacDougal 3 million
Bartolo Colon 1 Million

44 Million right there.

TheNext44
08-11-2009, 11:38 AM
I disagree. Harangs contract was a good one at the time and it still is.

If the Reds aren't even allowed to pay market rates for anyone without the contract being considered an anchor, well, I think it's time to start rooting for another team.

The problem with Harang's contract was not that it was for too much money, it was that it was for too many years.

Mid Market teams can not lock themselves into long term contracts for reasons shown by the Harang contract. Too many things can change too quickly.

Two things happened during that contract that have hurt the Reds.

1) The market for the first time in decades, shifted lower. Players are actually getting less this year for the same production than they did last year and years before. Harang could produce like he did in 07 and still be overpaid in this current market.

2) Harang has declined in production. I know that his peripherals have stayed close to the same, but we have to face facts, that he is not getting it done like he did before.

I actually am not surprised. Harang has good, but not great stuff. His greatest skill is his ability to locate. If he's off by just a bit, he can get hit hard.

I think considering that Harang was a great pitcher with just decent stuff, it was not wise to give him a long term contract. Pitchers like that are bound to have a few off years. If he had Webb or Peavey type stuff, then it makes more sense.

And this is without Harang being injured for any long period of time.

I still just don't like the Reds giving long term contracts to anyone, too much can happen.

jojo
08-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Does Rios significantly upgrade Wise/Anderson/Owens/Lillibridge?

My magic answerball says: "looks like yes".

Jpup
08-11-2009, 11:52 AM
He's better than what they have got, but that isn't saying much. Kenny Williams is terrible and always has been.

M2
08-11-2009, 11:53 AM
it would have been humorous/pathetic to hear Ricciardi threatening to pull Rios back unless Sox set up a trade.

we've been there.

Absolutely. Ricciardi got yoked. Pure and simple.

Emin3mShady07
08-11-2009, 11:56 AM
Does Rios significantly upgrade Wise/Anderson/Owens/Lillibridge?

My magic answerball says: "looks like yes".

Wise made that catch though. Don't you remember?;)

nate
08-11-2009, 11:56 AM
Does Rios significantly upgrade Wise/Anderson/Owens/Lillibridge?

My magic answerball says: "looks like yes".

He's better than Dewayne Wise?

The hell, you say!

:cool:

M2
08-11-2009, 12:00 PM
He's better than what they have got, but that isn't saying much. Kenny Williams is terrible and always has been.

I used to underestimate him. Now I don't. He gets things done, about as well as any GM in the game. And I think he's getting better. Beane recently intimated Williams is doing a nice job of playing alpha male up against the biz school GMs. Plus, he gets to brandish one of these:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/05/chicago-white-sox-world-series-ring-240.jpg

jojo
08-11-2009, 12:01 PM
A GM can't do what Riccardi did with Rios without significant input from ownership.

To me that would be the lumpiest part of the oatmeal for Toronto fans.

It'll be the same ownership that hires the guy replacing Riccardi.

jojo
08-11-2009, 12:02 PM
I used to underestimate him. Now I don't. He gets things done, about as well as any GM in the game. And I think he's getting better. Beane recently intimated Williams is doing a nice job of playing alpha male up against the biz school GMs. Plus, he gets to brandish one of these:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/05/chicago-white-sox-world-series-ring-240.jpg

Williams pays a lot for that muffler but how many "albatross" contracts has he saddled the ChiSox with?

Nasty_Boy
08-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Williams has found a way to get his team to the playoffs and he has won a WS. The deals he has recently made, look like they have added talent to the roster. Some of the big contracts are coming off the books, and I think most owners can handle the contracts when team is competing for postseason play most years.

M2
08-11-2009, 12:12 PM
It'll be the same ownership that hires the guy replacing Riccardi.

Got to figure that's coming this offseason. My guess is they'll bring in whomever Pat Gillick recommends (Mike Arbuckle strikes me as a distinct possibility).

M2
08-11-2009, 12:14 PM
I still just don't like the Reds giving long term contracts to anyone, too much can happen.

The only way to avoid it is to drop down to AAA.

BRM
08-11-2009, 12:15 PM
The only way to avoid it is to drop down to AAA.

Could they compete there? I'm thinking they would still be a few years away even at AAA.

princeton
08-11-2009, 12:37 PM
"Don't you know you're messing with a former boy wonder??? now either give me a young arm or so help me I will drag this process out for the entire 48 hrs! "

Rojo
08-11-2009, 01:27 PM
The odds that contracts are going to drift down continually for a many years in a row probably aren't high.

And real estate's always a good investment.

TheNext44
08-11-2009, 01:36 PM
The only way to avoid it is to drop down to AAA.

They may be necessary, but I still don't like them. :cool:

It really is important to give them to a select few. Players in their prime, about to reach free agency, who are rare, difficult to replace talents.

And the best way to do it is to sign guys when they still are cheap, buyout a few years of free agency by offering some security for them. Phillips was a good example.

He only has one high salary year, $11M for 2011. Worst case scenario, he tanks that year or the year before. That only straps the Reds for one year. And he most likely will have already earned the money of the full contract. (He's earned $23M of the $26M owed already.)

It would be nice to see Votto and Bruce signed to something like that in the future, maybe after next season.

jojo
08-11-2009, 01:37 PM
And real estate's always a good investment.

It is when people are buying it. Baseball seems to be making moola still.

dfs
08-11-2009, 02:15 PM
Mid Market teams can not lock themselves into long term contracts for reasons shown by the Harang contract. Too many things can change too quickly.


It wasn't that long ago that the ONLY way a mid market team could compete was to look up guys in long term contracts. With the escalation in salaries, even if guys didn't perform, they would look like bargains towards the end of the deal.

Player salaries have held firm/gone down for the first time in the free agent era and we are complaining that a franchise that has churned gm's every other year didn't anticipate that?

Tough crowd.

BRM
08-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Some comments from Williams and Guillen here.


SEATTLE - Quite the Monday for Ken Williams.

First the White Sox general manager got Alex Rios off waivers from the Toronto Blue Jays and then he got a ticket for jaywalking outside Safeco Field.

One will cost him a small fine. The other could further define his legacy on the South Side - one way or the other.

In what could only be described as "shock'' by not only players like Jermaine Dye, but even by manager Ozzie Guillen, Williams sent a text to Guillen before arriving to the ballpark to let the skipper know that they had added the 28-year-old outfielder to the roster, as well as Rios' guaranteed $59.7 million contract that runs through 2014.

"I told you guys when Kenny is going to make a move, it stays with him,'' Guillen said before the game with Seattle. "Maybe he cannot trust me. He might be scared when I talk to the media with a mic. But it was great news, pretty good headache.''

Make that a big headache.

First, Williams had to go to his owner and justify to board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf why it would be a good idea to take on more than $115 million in payroll with Jake Peavy last week and now Rios, and then he had to make sure his current players understood that while playing time will be cut for almost everyone, winning was the top priority, outweighing egos.

"We've been in trade discussion with Toronto before the deadline to try to get this guy,'' Williams explained of how the whole thing came together. "And the way the waiver claim was made was to A: hopefully resurrect talks. B: in the event someone else claimed him, we didn't want him going elsewhere because we targeted him not only as a guy who not only would help us in our quest for the division but future seasons as well.''

Asked how Rios will fit in, Williams said, "All of [the current outfielders] need breaks, too. ... And what that also does for you in this season is by having that versatility and strength, a guy like a [Mark] Kotsay will be on the bench if he's not in the lineup and it will be one of [Scott] Podsednik, Rios, Dye or [Carlos] Quentin that's also on the bench. Your bench, all of a sudden, you have right-handers and left-handers and speed coming off your bench. And will aid you late in the game.

"Make no mistake, Ozzie has complete control of his lineup, so he'll ultimately determine what the best matchups are. But we think now that with the addition of this guy we can play amongst the big boys. We just have to get ourselves into a more consistent mode of play.''

The other question Williams had to answer was his saying he made famous of "You can't spend a dollar if you only have 50 cents,'' was once again stated earlier this season when the team's finances and attendance was brought up, with Williams painting a bleak picture of both. So what changed?

"If we don't win, [Reinsdorf] and I might need second jobs,'' Williams said laughing. "We're out on the limb a little bit with the last two acquisitions but we have seen in recent games our fans are starting to wrap their hands around this team. The walk-ups have been great, and people are getting excited about the possibility. I think they can see this team being a dangerous team if we get to the playoffs and match up against anyone.

"We just need to win the games that we're supposed to win now.''

Rios was expected to arrive in Seattle before Tuesday's game, but might not play until Wednesday. How often he plays, well, that's Guillen's cross to bear now.

"I already had a meeting with a few guys [in the clubhouse], and I will sit down with [Rios] and talk about it, but everybody is going to have playing time,'' Guillen said. "How we're going to do it? Between myself and Joey [Cora], we're going to figure out how we're going to pick days off for anyone. We're going to bounce guys around. In the meanwhile, I'm going to go with my best lineup, but I don't want long faces. I don't want people to feel left out, I don't want people to feel they're not part of this ballclub anymore because we're here together and we're here together to win.''

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/08/sox_land_alex_rios_off_waivers.html

_Sir_Charles_
08-11-2009, 02:28 PM
They'll sure be crippled by having a productive player through his prime on a contract they can easily afford.

Of course they seem to foolishly believe they're a baseball team and not a self-pity association.

Well, I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. I think they can only "easily afford" him if they've bumped up thier budget. I don't see that lasting. And while he may be a productive player, he's not productive enough to justify that contract IMO.

If the Peavy injury ends up lingering or being worse than originally thought...those 2 added contracts may lead to long term problems. But maybe I'm just overly worried about injuries...I can't imagine WHY? :p:


~edit~ After reading some more posts, I didn't realize so many of their current contracts came off the books next year. Okay, it's not as bad as I thought, but I still think he's extremely overpaid.

blumj
08-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Well, I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. I think they can only "easily afford" him if they've bumped up thier budget. I don't see that lasting. And while he may be a productive player, he's not productive enough to justify that contract IMO.

If the Peavy injury ends up lingering or being worse than originally thought...those 2 added contracts may lead to long term problems. But maybe I'm just overly worried about injuries...I can't imagine WHY? :p:


~edit~ After reading some more posts, I didn't realize so many of their current contracts came off the books next year. Okay, it's not as bad as I thought, but I still think he's extremely overpaid.
It's really difficult to improve a team that's as good as the White Sox already are without taking some pretty big risks.

REDREAD
08-12-2009, 12:20 PM
It wasn't that long ago that the ONLY way a mid market team could compete was to look up guys in long term contracts. With the escalation in salaries, even if guys didn't perform, they would look like bargains towards the end of the deal.

Player salaries have held firm/gone down for the first time in the free agent era and we are complaining that a franchise that has churned gm's every other year didn't anticipate that?

Tough crowd.

Yep. Harang and Arroyo didn't work out as well as we hoped, but it made sense at the time. Even if we had to overpay Arroyo a few million extra to get him to sign. A team has to stick its neck out and occasionally take a risk. Nothing is guaranteed. Heck, maybe next year, one of those guys will bounce back strong and be back on everyone's "untouchable" list (which is quite fickle) :) In all seriousness, if Harang posts a 3.40 ERA next year, I expect a lot of support to extend him again. Then in a few years, Harang will be called a disaster again. That's the way fans are.

Chip R
08-12-2009, 12:34 PM
The problem with Harang's contract was not that it was for too much money, it was that it was for too many years.

Mid Market teams can not lock themselves into long term contracts for reasons shown by the Harang contract. Too many things can change too quickly.

Two things happened during that contract that have hurt the Reds.

1) The market for the first time in decades, shifted lower. Players are actually getting less this year for the same production than they did last year and years before. Harang could produce like he did in 07 and still be overpaid in this current market.

2) Harang has declined in production. I know that his peripherals have stayed close to the same, but we have to face facts, that he is not getting it done like he did before.

I actually am not surprised. Harang has good, but not great stuff. His greatest skill is his ability to locate. If he's off by just a bit, he can get hit hard.

I think considering that Harang was a great pitcher with just decent stuff, it was not wise to give him a long term contract. Pitchers like that are bound to have a few off years. If he had Webb or Peavey type stuff, then it makes more sense.

And this is without Harang being injured for any long period of time.

I still just don't like the Reds giving long term contracts to anyone, too much can happen.


The Reds need you in their front office to see into the future and determine which players they should give long term deals to and which ones they shouldn't.

backbencher
08-12-2009, 12:40 PM
The problem with Harang's contract was not that it was for too much money, it was that it was for too many years.

Mid Market teams can not lock themselves into long term contracts for reasons shown by the Harang contract. Too many things can change too quickly.



I don't disagree, but negotiations don't occur on only one side of the table. Saying "we won't sign you for more than two years" is almost always going to produce the same results as "we won't sign you."

TheNext44
08-12-2009, 01:18 PM
The Reds need you in their front office to see into the future and determine which players they should give long term deals to and which ones they shouldn't.


I think once they saw me in my Karnac The Magnificent outfit, I would lose the job. :cool:

But it really is not about seeing the future, but figuring out the odds. The criteria I would use for determining who to sign long term would be this:

Are they young, healthy, and have difficult to replace talent and skills? Even if all three are a yes, it's still a crapshoot, but with better odds.

Too often, especially with the Reds, whether or not they fill a need is used as a criterion. As we have seen with Arroyo, Harang and Cordero, that doesn't always work out well.