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View Full Version : Mike Vick to the Eagles



WMR
08-13-2009, 10:54 PM
All dogs in the Philly area better watch their backs. :(

Tom Servo
08-13-2009, 10:55 PM
People were saying today that he was coming to Carolina, which really would have made me reconsider my Panthers fandom.

Highlifeman21
08-13-2009, 10:56 PM
Pretty sure they had dogfighting before Vick, and they'll have dogfighting after Vick.

Joseph
08-13-2009, 11:07 PM
Seems like a tough place to go, considering the fans of philly.

Team wise its not the worst though. McNabb is established, no pressure to start right now. He can relearn football, and maybe learn about being a better person.

GIDP
08-13-2009, 11:07 PM
He will fit in well in Philly.

travisgrimes
08-13-2009, 11:27 PM
wouldn't be surprised if he is the heir apparent to McNabb... Donovan had the same talent as Vick, maybe not as fast, when he came into the league. He was a running QB with a gun but no accuracy but over the years has really improved in that area. He can be a great mentor to Vick and Mike will once again be a superstar.

DTCromer
08-13-2009, 11:39 PM
Good for Mike. I hope he tears up the league.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 12:27 AM
Seems like a tough place to go, considering the fans of philly.


I hear they are pretty rabid. ;)

Jack Burton
08-14-2009, 01:38 AM
I hear they are pretty rabid. ;)
:clap: Well Done.

cumberlandreds
08-14-2009, 08:53 AM
Wouldn't Cleveland had been a better fit for Vick? They do have a "Dog Pound" there.

Dom Heffner
08-14-2009, 09:05 AM
Pretty sure they had dogfighting before Vick, and they'll have dogfighting after Vick.

Yeah, silly people. People should realize if you didn't invent it, you're fine.

MJA
08-14-2009, 09:38 AM
I just hope the people who are so against Vick are also against Pedro Martinez coming back.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02072008/news/worldnews/pedros_fowl_ball_475252.htm

What Pedro did wasn't nearly as bad, but he wasn't contrite about his behavior and his comments seem to indicate that he has participated in cock fighting in the past.

jojo
08-14-2009, 09:50 AM
Seems like a tough place to go, considering the fans of philly.

Team wise its not the worst though. McNabb is established, no pressure to start right now. He can relearn football, and maybe learn about being a better person.

Can you think of a tougher place for Peta to protest a football team though?

Benihana
08-14-2009, 11:11 AM
Bengals made the first offer to Vick

http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer/status/3307378636

Hoosier Red
08-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Beni, you should probably add reportedly made the first offer. Jay's very good and gets a lot of scoops, but he only has anonymous sources on this, and it will never be proven.

KoryMac5
08-14-2009, 12:06 PM
Bengals made the first offer to Vick

http://twitter.com/Jay_Glazer/status/3307378636

He would have been better off with the Bengals. Second fiddle to Carson Plamer in a smaller market is a better deal that third string to McNabb in a big market. Plus we all know how the Brown family loves giving folks second chances.

Hoosier Red
08-14-2009, 12:40 PM
I just hope the people who are so against Vick are also against Pedro Martinez coming back.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02072008/news/worldnews/pedros_fowl_ball_475252.htm

What Pedro did wasn't nearly as bad, but he wasn't contrite about his behavior and his comments seem to indicate that he has participated in cock fighting in the past.

As you mention what he did wasn't nearly as bad. If Michael Vick had done nothing more than attend a dog fight, or even gamble on it, it would have been a different matter and he might have been suspended for 2 games or maybe not at all.

The fact that he we was so involved in running an illegal dogfighting ring which involved a great number of dogs over the course of a long time frame. Than lied about his involvement makes it a much bigger deal.

WVRed
08-14-2009, 02:48 PM
He would have been better off with the Bengals. Second fiddle to Carson Plamer in a smaller market is a better deal that third string to McNabb in a big market. Plus we all know how the Brown family loves giving folks second chances.

From the looks of things, I think Vick is going to play a pretty measurable role in the Eagles offense. Could see them going a lot of different routes with McNabb, Vick, McCoy, and Westbrook.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 03:42 PM
I am as big a dog lover as anyone. For the last 7 years I have rescued, transported, and provided foster homes for retired racing greyhounds. I have no doubt that many of "my dogs" came from awful living conditions, perhaps not as bad as the Vick dogs, but you get the picture.

That said, I don't see what he did as a reason to ruin the man's life/career any further than has already been done. If the Eagles (or anybody else) still thinks he can play, then so be it.

Hopefully he has learned from the events of the past and has grown as a man. I love a good story of redemption and part of me will hate what he did forever, but a part also will be rooting for him as he tries to come back.

WMR
08-14-2009, 03:52 PM
How often does a short prison stay cure socio/psychopaths like Michael Vick? Rarely.

Hopefully the magnifying glass on him will at least be large and bright enough to keep him in line.


Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth.

This extends into their pathological lying and willingness to con and manipulate others for personal gain or amusement. The prototypical psychopath's emotions are described as a shallow affect, meaning their overall way of relating is characterized by mere displays of friendliness and other emotion for personal gain; the displayed emotion need not correlate with felt emotion, in other words.

Most research studies of psychopaths have taken place among prison populations. This remains a limitation on its applicability to a general population. Findings indicate psychopathic convicts have a 2.5 time higher probability of being released from jail than undiagnosed ones even though they are more likely to recidivate.[69]

It has been shown that punishment and behavior modification techniques do not improve the behavior of what Hare, and other followers of this theory call a psychopath. Psychopathic individuals have been regularly observed to become more cunning and better able to hide their behaviour. It has been suggested by them traditional therapeutic approaches actually make psychopaths if not worse, then far more adept at manipulating others and concealing their behavior. They are generally considered to be not only incurable but also untreatable.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Has Vick been diagnosed as a socio/psychopath?

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Has Vick been diagnosed as a socio/psychopath?

If he's not then I don't think anyone is.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:08 PM
If he's not then I don't think anyone is.

Some of his actions have socio/psychopathic tendancies, no doubt, but I'd actually want to sit down with him more than once before I made that determination. Not that I'm a psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything.

Your above statement is a bit rash.

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:10 PM
Some of his actions have socio/psychopathic tendancies, no doubt, but I'd actually want to sit down with him more than once before I made that determination. Not that I'm a psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything.

Your above statement is a bit rash.

Symptoms

Common characteristics of those with psychopathy are:

* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Superficial charm
* Criminal versatility
* Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
* Impulse control problems
* Irresponsibility
* Inability to tolerate boredom
* Pathological narcissism
* Pathological lying
* Shallow affect
* Deceitfulness/manipulativeness
* Aggressive or violent tendencies, repeated physical fights or assaults on others
* Lack of empathy
* Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others
* A sense of extreme entitlement
* Lack of or diminished levels of anxiety/nervousness and other emotions
* Promiscuous sexual behavior, sexually deviant lifestyle
* Poor judgment, failure to learn from experience
* Lack of personal insight
* Failure to follow any life plan
* Abuse of drugs including alcohol
* Inability to distinguish right from wrong

Could check off, what, 80% of those for Vick? And that's being kind, IMO.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:12 PM
Could check off, what, 80% of those for Vick? And that's being kind, IMO.

Couldn't tell you. Never been around him.

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Couldn't tell you. Never been around him.

LOL

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:14 PM
You two would argue with each other over anything. :p:

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:15 PM
Just think about what he was really up to while he was putting on his front as a good guy and face of the Falcons franchise.

Psychopath.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:15 PM
LOL

Seriously... you think you can even judge 80% of those symptoms based on what's being reported?

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:16 PM
Just think about what he was really up to while he was putting on his front as a good guy and face of the Falcons franchise.

Psychopath.

I'd say he is trying to make a living the only legal way he knows how... or is allowed to given that he has a felony record now.

Eric_the_Red
08-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Symptoms

Common characteristics of those with psychopathy are:

* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Superficial charm
* Criminal versatility
* Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
* Impulse control problems
* Irresponsibility
* Inability to tolerate boredom
* Pathological narcissism
* Pathological lying
* Shallow affect
* Deceitfulness/manipulativeness
* Aggressive or violent tendencies, repeated physical fights or assaults on others
* Lack of empathy
* Lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizes having hurt or mistreated others
* A sense of extreme entitlement
* Lack of or diminished levels of anxiety/nervousness and other emotions
* Promiscuous sexual behavior, sexually deviant lifestyle
* Poor judgment, failure to learn from experience
* Lack of personal insight
* Failure to follow any life plan
* Abuse of drugs including alcohol
* Inability to distinguish right from wrong

Could check off, what, 80% of those for Vick? And that's being kind, IMO.

Chad Ochocinco is a psychopath!!

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:18 PM
I'd say he is trying to make a living the only legal way he knows how... or is allowed to given that he has a felony record now.

It's impossible to callously murder and torture animals and find it humorous amongst your friends while simultaneously pretending to be a law-abiding good-guy football player WITHOUT being a psycho/sociopath, IMO.

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:21 PM
Chad Ochocinco is a psychopath!!

He probably is on some level. Socio/psychopathy isn't especially rare, it's just the degree that varies. Socio/psychopathy doesn't equate to "evil" in all or even necessarily most cases.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:26 PM
It's impossible to callously murder and torture animals and find it humorous amongst your friends while simultaneously pretending to be a law-abiding good-guy football player WITHOUT being a psycho/sociopath, IMO.

Like I said, I don't argue that there were socio/psychopathic tendancies in his actions.

However, to deny the man a 2nd chance not appropo either. If he screws up again, even the least little bit, yeah... banish him to the deepest pits.

What should have been done with Vick, in your opinion, WMR?

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:28 PM
Like I said, I don't argue that there were socio/psychopathic tendancies in his actions.

However, to deny the man a 2nd chance not appropo either. If he screws up again, even the least little bit, yeah... banish him to the deepest pits.

What should have been done with Vick, in your opinion, WMR?

I would have banished him permanently from the NFL.

His prison sentence was satisfactory considering the nature of his crimes.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:30 PM
I would have banished him permanently from the NFL.

His prison sentence was satisfactory considering the nature of his crimes.

So you were happy with the legal punishment but not happy that Goodell reinstated him?

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
So you were happy with the legal punishment but not happy that Goodell reinstated him?

Happy? I wouldn't go that far. I would have been perfectly happy if they gave him 10. The things that he did to those poor animals are atrocities that no living thing should have to endure. But 2 years is probably a pretty "fair" punishment, all things considered.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
I would have banished him permanently from the NFL.

His prison sentence was satisfactory considering the nature of his crimes.

That would've been tough to do with Leonard Little still in the league.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Happy? I wouldn't go that far. I would have been perfectly happy if they gave him 10. The things that he did to those poor animals are atrocities that no living thing should have to endure. But 2 years is probably a pretty "fair" punishment, all things considered.

That's kind of how I see it too. At the time I was hoping he would have gotten more but now I think 2 years was probably fair.

As for the banishment, I agree with Dab. That would have been tough to do.

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:36 PM
That would've been tough to do with Leonard Little still in the league.

Didn't Little's crimes occur under the watch of a different commish? I don't think you can retroactively punish a player for something that he has already been punished for, even if the punishment was not satisfactory in light of your own views on player discipline.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:43 PM
Didn't Little's crimes occur under the watch of a different commish? I don't think you can retroactively punish a player for something that he has already been punished for, even if the punishment was not satisfactory in light of your own views on player discipline.

OK, Vick has been suspended for 2+ years. How does that size up with the response to the Stallworth incident?

WMR
08-14-2009, 04:50 PM
OK, Vick has been suspended for 2+ years. How does that size up with the response to the Stallworth incident?

Well, we are talking about me as commish, right, and not Roger Goodell? ;)

However, I do draw quite a distinction between a careless, unintentional act and the sort of rampant torture and murder of innocent creatures in which Vick was engaged.

Before anyone goes there, that is NOT to imply that animals are more valuable than humans.

I just see a monumental difference between those two crimes in what it says about what sort of person you are.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Well, we are talking about me as commish, right, and not Roger Goodell? ;)

However, I do draw quite a distinction between a careless, unintentional act and the sort of rampant torture and murder of innocent creatures in which Vick was engaged.

Before anyone goes there, that is NOT to imply that animals are more valuable than humans.

I just see a monumental difference between those two crimes in what it says about what sort of person you are.

So we're asking the commisioner to make value judgements on whether or not a guy deserves to be able to draw a paycheck? There are likely several other guys in the league that would qualify as sociopaths based on your above symptoms. Tank Johnson comes to mind.

Let's be honest, Goodell is not running a nunnery.

WMR
08-14-2009, 05:02 PM
So we're asking the commisioner to make value judgements on whether or not a guy deserves to be able to draw a paycheck? There are likely several other guys in the league that would qualify as sociopaths based on your above symptoms. Tank Johnson comes to mind.

Let's be honest, Goodell is not running a nunnery.

Whether or not he deserves to draw a paycheck isn't the issue for me if I'm the commissioner. Neither myself or the NFL owe Mike Vick a damn thing.

I wouldn't want someone who did what Vick did associated with my product.

WMR
08-14-2009, 05:03 PM
You don't do what Vick did, and do it over and over and over and over, without something inside of you being irrevocably broken. His apologies would be excellent lining for a litter box.

BRM
08-14-2009, 05:04 PM
I'm getting the idea WMR won't be buying any Eagles gear this fall.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 05:05 PM
Whether or not he deserves to draw a paycheck isn't the issue for me if I'm the commissioner. Neither myself or the NFL owe Mike Vick a damn thing.

I wouldn't want someone who did what Vick did associated with my product.

Or Tank Johnson, Pacman Jones (if he could find someone crazy enought to sign him), Ray Lewis, et al...

Why did those guys get 2nd chances?

WMR
08-14-2009, 05:07 PM
Or Tank Johnson, Pacman Jones (if he could find someone crazy enought to sign him), Ray Lewis, et al...

Why did those guys get 2nd chances?

well... Ray Lewis was found not guilty.

Pacman Jones would be right next to Vick in the unemployment line if it was up to me.

What did Tank do again? He had a big stockpile of weapons in his home, correct? Certainly dumb, but I wouldn't banish him permanently because of it.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 05:08 PM
You don't do what Vick did, and do it over and over and over and over, without something inside of you being irrevocably broken. His apologies would be excellent lining for a litter box.

Time will tell. Time will tell.

I can say this from being around quite a few ex-offenders over the years... People who are given a chance to make amends on some level are way less likely to "reoffend" than those who are shunned.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 05:14 PM
well... Ray Lewis was found not guilty.

Pacman Jones would be right next to Vick in the unemployment line if it was up to me.

What did Tank do again? He had a big stockpile of weapons in his home, correct? Certainly dumb, but I wouldn't banish him permanently because of it.

Lewis plead guilty to Obstruction and turned rat against his two pals.

Tank had the weapons charge and violated his probation. He must be a sociopath.

WMR
08-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Lewis plead guilty to Obstruction and turned rat against his two pals.

Tank had the weapons charge and violated his probation. He must be a sociopath.

:rolleyes:

If you want to have a discussion, don't try to obfuscate my opinions in the process.

Tom Servo
08-14-2009, 06:11 PM
See my big thing is not only is what Vick did terrible and nearly unforgivable, but I don't think he was much of a quarterback to begin with. Outside of helping the Falcons to the 2004 NFC championship game Vick wasn't very good at all. His completion percentage was crap and he routinely overthrew his receivers. And remember all the "It's not his fault! The Falcons have terrible receivers!" claims? Roddy White's numbers sure as hell say otherwise.

I figure he could probably be good in certain formations and as an offensive weapon, but it would take a lot of skill to turn him into a regular every-down quarterback at this point. But really, I don't see why anyone would want him on their team after what he did.

dsmith421
08-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Could check off, what, 80% of those for Vick? And that's being kind, IMO.

80% of those apply to almost every professional athlete in the world. With the exception of Brett Favre (who just loves playin' football with his buddies in the mud while wearing jeans) and of course "Prince" Albert Pujols, the latter-day Santa Claus.

WMR
08-14-2009, 06:25 PM
80% of those apply to almost every professional athlete in the world. With the exception of Brett Favre (who just loves playin' football with his buddies in the mud while wearing jeans) and of course "Prince" Albert Pujols, the latter-day Santa Claus.

Agreed. Like I said, it's a sliding scale.

dabvu2498
08-14-2009, 06:26 PM
:rolleyes:

If you want to have a discussion, don't try to obfuscate my opinions in the process.

Just saying, if you're going to ban people from the league without giving them a 2nd chance, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere.

Killing people? Already crossed... Obstructing justice when people are killed? Already crossed... Having an unregistered arsenal, associating with all manner of criminals, drug possession, DUIs? Crossed, crossed, crossed, and crossed.

I would never try to defend what Vick has done. Did he deserve the punishment he's already received? Absolutely. But to take away an opportunity to make amends and make a living, even though he could very well screw it up... I can't go for that.

WMR
08-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Just saying, if you're going to ban people from the league without giving them a 2nd chance, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere.

Killing people? Already crossed... Obstructing justice when people are killed? Already crossed... Having an unregistered arsenal, associating with all manner of criminals, drug possession, DUIs? Crossed, crossed, crossed, and crossed.

I would never try to defend what Vick has done. Did he deserve the punishment he's already received? Absolutely. But to take away an opportunity to make amends and make a living, even though he could very well screw it up... I can't go for that.

I understand your opinion and respect it. I just happen to disagree in this instance. No biggie. Not like we ever agree on much anyway. :D

kpresidente
08-21-2009, 11:00 PM
Killing people? Already crossed... Obstructing justice when people are killed? Already crossed... Having an unregistered arsenal, associating with all manner of criminals, drug possession, DUIs? Crossed, crossed, crossed, and crossed.

Vick is worse than all those. Stallworth and Little had/have very serious drinking problems, and their behavior was grossly negligent, but they never intended the outcome of their behavior. Both common sense and the legal system recognize the chasm between willful and negligent actions.

redsfandan
08-21-2009, 11:26 PM
I just wanted to remind people that what is immoral in some parts of the country is commonplace, almost tradition, in other parts of the country. The man served his time. If he screws up he'll be gone and professional football will become only a memory for him. I'm sure he's been told this. It's up to him.

dsmith421
08-22-2009, 12:09 AM
I just wanted to remind people that what is immoral in some parts of the country is commonplace, almost tradition, in other parts of the country.

In which part of the country is it commonplace or traditional to sadistically torture and mutilate dogs? I'm genuinely curious.

redsfandan
08-22-2009, 02:28 AM
I was specifically referring to the dog fighting and only the dog fighting. All I'm saying is that the guy did his time. If you want to complain about criminals in pro sports well that's not exactly news. Philly will be playing at Atlanta on Sun, Dec 6. I'm sure there will be people that will only care about how hard Vick is hit. But I don't care that much about the sideshow. I just hope it's a good game.

Chip R
08-19-2011, 10:16 AM
Vick is saying that he was more interested in signing with either Buffalo or the Bengals - because he could start there - than with the Eagles. However, after he met with Commissioner Goodell and other NFL officials, he was persuaded to sign with Philly. I'm no Bengals fan but I don't like to see the Commissioner pick and choose where players should sign.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A2KLP3nsX05OcVIASAE5nYcB?slug=ap-eagles-vick

Roy Tucker
08-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Vick is saying that he was more interested in signing with either Buffalo or the Bengals - because he could start there - than with the Eagles. However, after he met with Commissioner Goodell and other NFL officials, he was persuaded to sign with Philly. I'm no Bengals fan but I don't like to see the Commissioner pick and choose where players should sign.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A2KLP3nsX05OcVIASAE5nYcB?slug=ap-eagles-vick

Espacially when the commisioner is such a stickler about tampering.

Another case of the big guys play by the rules only when it suits them.