PDA

View Full Version : Gonzo gone to Boston



Pages : [1] 2

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 01:16 PM
Traded to Red Sox.

Not a terrible organization.

Good luck to Gonzo -- I liked watching him in the field quite a bit.

Benihana
08-14-2009, 01:16 PM
Nice move by the Reds

WMR
08-14-2009, 01:17 PM
Good.

jojo
08-14-2009, 01:17 PM
Can this get a double sticky and perhaps a star?

RichRed
08-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Christmas comes early.

Cyclone792
08-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Get Brandon Phillips over to shortstop tonight.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 01:19 PM
Hopefully the Reds didn't have to throw in that much cash. OR they at least received a decent prospect that isn't named Weems.

BRM
08-14-2009, 01:20 PM
The Red Sox have completed a trade with the Cincinnati Reds, bringing shortstop Alex Gonzalez back to Boston.

Gonzalez is not expected to join the team until tomorrow in Texas. The most likely move would involve the Sox releasing infielder Chris Woodward to make room for Gonzalez on the roster.

Gonzalez, as Red Sox fans will recall, is an excellent defensive player who should sure up the team's defensive issues on the left side of the infield. His contract calls for a $6 million club option next season, meaning the Sox will have the right to retain to his services.

It was unclear whom the Sox are sending to Cincinnati in exchange for Gonzalez. We hope to have more on on this shortly

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/sox_acquire_ale.html

WMR
08-14-2009, 01:20 PM
Get Brandon Phillips over to shortstop tonight.

If they don't it will be such a typical Reds move.

Hopefully they'll do now what they should've done a couple years ago.

BRM
08-14-2009, 01:20 PM
Get Brandon Phillips over to shortstop tonight.

Don't hold your breath. I fully expect to see Janish there.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2009, 01:21 PM
YEAHHH!

jojo
08-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Get Brandon Phillips over to shortstop tonight.

Can he handle the two hole?

wheels
08-14-2009, 01:23 PM
Hope doesn't let the door hit him.

Get Phillips over to short post-haste.

Patrick Bateman
08-14-2009, 01:23 PM
Probably a salary dump more than anything.

A logical move for both sides. A-Gon looks closer to his norm of being just below average, rather than completely incompetent player. So Boston actually gets a slight upgrade.

Benihana
08-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Hope doesn't let the door hit him.

Get Phillips over to short post-haste.

Or go get JJ Hardy post-haste.

BRM
08-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Can he handle the two hole?

And who would hit 4th?

BRM
08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
Or go get JJ Hardy post-haste.

I'd take that if they have no intention of trying BP at SS.

Az Red
08-14-2009, 01:26 PM
HMMM, GM making smart moves. Hopefully Reds didn't pay anything.

Team Clark
08-14-2009, 01:27 PM
Thank GOD I don't have to look at that horrible off balance swing anymore. I just can't take anymore wild swings with the bat nearly coming out of his hands. I was going to give away my tickets for tonight, but now I think I will go.

Edd Roush
08-14-2009, 01:29 PM
HMMM, GM making smart moves. Hopefully Reds didn't pay anything.

If the Red Sox were willing to pick up his whole contract, they would have claimed him off of waivers for free.

Frankly any money the Reds had to give up would be worth it. I am much more glad to see Gonzo go than I was to see Weathers leavee.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 01:31 PM
I'd like to list some of Gonzo's attributes at SS. Some of this is aesthetic, some of it is the kind of stuff a scout would say.

1. Exceptionally quick hands.
2. Great feet.
3. Elite accuracy on throws.
4. On-target instincts.
5. Excellent going back on pop-ups.
6. Super smooth.

This guy was the starting SS on 2 World Championship teams. I really enjoyed watched him on defense. His skills have waned a bit, I know, but to me he still looked like a master at the position, on routine plays and in flashes at other times. He's been battling injuries and rust this year, so I think he can be better next year, and I'm sure the Red Sox are happy to have the option to bring him back, if they like what they the rest of this year.

Caveat Emperor
08-14-2009, 01:31 PM
Good move. Put whatever savings you get on him in the bank and use it for better things next season.

nate
08-14-2009, 01:33 PM
As the great philosopher, Charlie Wilson (of the Gap Band) once said:

"Outstanding."

Homer Bailey
08-14-2009, 01:35 PM
He gone.

corkedbat
08-14-2009, 01:36 PM
When do they make the PTBNL or cash considerations announcement? I just live for those.

jojo
08-14-2009, 01:36 PM
Does this mean that we get to make fun of the folks at SoSH for once?

LoganBuck
08-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Does this mean that we get to make fun of the folks at SoSH for once?

I hadn't thought of it like that! Yes, yes it does.

What would we be saying if we were in a pennant race, and the answer to our problems, was Alex Gonzalez?

I shudder to think of that.

M2
08-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Does this mean that we get to make fun of the folks at SoSH for once?

Hey, maybe the Sox want Willy Taveras too. He's every bit the player at the plate Gonzalez is.

LoganBuck
08-14-2009, 01:42 PM
Hey, maybe the Sox want Willy Taveras too. He's every bit the player at the plate Gonzalez is.

Speed and Defense
Speed and Defense
Speed and Defense

Keep repeating it until you brainwash someone else.

RichRed
08-14-2009, 01:43 PM
Hey, maybe the Sox want Willy Taveras too. He's every bit the player at the plate Gonzalez is.

And FAST! But I think two Christmas presents in August is too much to wish for.

Roy Tucker
08-14-2009, 01:43 PM
Gonzo is gonzo.

Highlifeman21
08-14-2009, 01:44 PM
Get Brandon Phillips over to shortstop tonight.

Won't. Happen.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 01:44 PM
If the Red Sox were willing to pick up his whole contract, they would have claimed him off of waivers for free.

Frankly any money the Reds had to give up would be worth it. I am much more glad to see Gonzo go than I was to see Weathers leavee.

We do know since they didn't just get him off waivers that it's not a straight salary dump. Your suggestion is one possibility, that the Bosox aren't going to pick up the entire salary, but I would think that it means we're getting something in return, although who knows what level of player that will be.

bucksfan2
08-14-2009, 01:45 PM
Unfortunately Gonzo didn't work out in Cincy. His first season was pretty decent but he was dealing with a very serious illness to his child. After that he was riddled with injuries and never seemed to get his bat going. He held his own on D but he just wasn't a very good all around player during his time in Cincy. I wish him the best in Boston.

M2
08-14-2009, 01:49 PM
blumj (answering from the other thread),

Green's a perfect storm of awful to be sure. Why they didn't get Orlando Cabrera is the real puzzler.

With Manny gone and Papi a shell of his former self the Sox really can't carry an empty stick like the could a few years back, and they really couldn't carry Gonzalez on his first pass through town even with the Manny and Papi show in full swing.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 01:54 PM
With Manny gone and Papi a shell of his former self the Sox really can't carry an empty stick like the could a few years back, and they really couldn't carry Gonzalez on his first pass through town even with the Manny and Papi show in full swing.
Boston is currently 5th in all of baseball in runs scored.

bucksfan2
08-14-2009, 01:56 PM
blumj (answering from the other thread),

Green's a perfect storm of awful to be sure. Why they didn't get Orlando Cabrera is the real puzzler.

With Manny gone and Papi a shell of his former self the Sox really can't carry an empty stick like the could a few years back, and they really couldn't carry Gonzalez on his first pass through town even with the Manny and Papi show in full swing.

The Red Sox are having some serious offensive issues this year. On paper they look to be solid with above average contributors in Youk, Pedroia, Drew, V Martinez, and Bay. They all just seemed to slump right at the same time. It also doesn't help that the post PED Ortiz has looked like the Minnesota Ortiz this season.

I wonder what the book on Cabrera is. Guy is a solid SS but has bounced around over and over again.

M2
08-14-2009, 02:00 PM
Boston is currently 5th in all of baseball in runs scored.

And in 2003-5 they were #1. In 2006, the Gonzo season, they slumped to #8, rebounding to #4 and #3 after he left. They aren't as scary as they used to be and an out machine at SS will be an issue for them.

westofyou
08-14-2009, 02:00 PM
I wonder what the book on Cabrera is. Guy is a solid SS but has bounced around over and over again.

Bad teammate is my guess, he's moved more than Jose Guillen has and while Guillens was partly prior to success Orlando's has been in the midst of success. That points towards a personality that might be mighty prickly amongst the clubhouse.

M2
08-14-2009, 02:02 PM
Bad teammate is my guess, he's moved more than Jose Guillen has and while Guillens was partly prior to success Orlando's has been in the midst of success. That points towards a personality that might be mighty prickly amongst the clubhouse.

A bad personality who always seems to wind up on winning teams. He's not wearing a ring by accident and the Sox ought to know that better than anyone.

Always Red
08-14-2009, 02:02 PM
I'd like to list some of Gonzo's attributes at SS. Some of this is aesthetic, some of it is the kind of stuff a scout would say.

1. Exceptionally quick hands.
2. Great feet.
3. Elite accuracy on throws.
4. On-target instincts.
5. Excellent going back on pop-ups.
6. Super smooth.

This guy was the starting SS on 2 World Championship teams. I really enjoyed watched him on defense. His skills have waned a bit, I know, but to me he still looked like a master at the position, on routine plays and in flashes at other times. He's been battling injuries and rust this year, so I think he can be better next year, and I'm sure the Red Sox are happy to have the option to bring him back, if they like what they the rest of this year.

I also really enjoyed watching Gonzalez play SS; when he was healthy, he was the best the Reds have had there since Larkin.

My eye tells me his range is fading, but age happens to us all.

Good luck in Boston.

No way the Reds put BP at SS; it makes way too much sense.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:03 PM
And in 2003-5 they were #1. In 2006, the Gonzo season, they slumped to #8, rebounding to #4 and #3 after he left. They aren't as scary as they used to be and an out machine at SS will be an issue for them.
IF, and I know it's a big if, if Gonzalez can stay off the DL he'll at least be an improvement for them. Not a big one but enough for them to deal for him.

Big Klu
08-14-2009, 02:03 PM
Bad teammate is my guess, he's moved more than Jose Guillen has and while Guillens was partly prior to success Orlando's has been in the midst of success. That points towards a personality that might be mighty prickly amongst the clubhouse.

Exactly what I was thinking. I've heard that he is a Guillenesque presence in the clubhouse.

Mario-Rijo
08-14-2009, 02:04 PM
Bad teammate is my guess, he's moved more than Jose Guillen has and while Guillens was partly prior to success Orlando's has been in the midst of success. That points towards a personality that might be mighty prickly amongst the clubhouse.

Yeah he seems to be an army of one when he takes the field, at least that was the word on him in the White Sox clubhouse, he doesn't much care for teammates in general.

BRM
08-14-2009, 02:06 PM
Ltlabner must be in mourning. He hasn't posted in here yet.

Mario-Rijo
08-14-2009, 02:08 PM
I'd like to reiterate what TC said about Gonzo. This is the happiest Reds moment I've had since May.

M2
08-14-2009, 02:11 PM
IF, and I know it's a big if, if Gonzalez can stay off the DL he'll at least be an improvement for them. Not a big one but enough for them to deal for him.

He can certainly pick up the ball and make an accurate throw if it's hit near him. That said, the Sox team I watch on a regular basis has an offense that takes too many naps. So better than Nick Green, but well short of what they need.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:11 PM
I'm not sure that Julio Lugo was that much of an improvement over Gonzalez in '06/'07 though. They did ok with his stick in the lineup.

Cyclone792
08-14-2009, 02:12 PM
I'd like to reiterate what TC said about Gonzo. This is the happiest Reds moment I've had since May.

I'm with you there. Of course, it's a bitter happiness. I'm thrilled he's gone, but it's disappointing that the best news always seems to come when the Reds finally show a lousy ballplayer the door. It'll be nice if we can ever be thrilled about something good, like a playoff appearance.

But oh well ... such is life when you're living through the Lost Decade.

PuffyPig
08-14-2009, 02:13 PM
Gonzo was our best SS on the roster (other than, perhaps, Phillips).

He was a FA after this season anyway.

It's really a nothing move, but should save us money.

Eric_the_Red
08-14-2009, 02:14 PM
I think the overall success of this move depends on one of two things happening:

A) the Reds acquiring Hardy (or a similar SS)
or
B) BP moving to SS and acquiring Orlando Hudson (or a similar 2B)

Regardless, good luck to Gonzo in Boston. Beat the Yanks!

_Sir_Charles_
08-14-2009, 02:15 PM
What we recieved for the Weathers to Milwaukee deal hasn't been announced either, correct? If so, this leads me to believe we ARE getting JJ Hardy. If the Reds really believed in Janish, he would've been getting more playing time than once every 2 weeks or so. Put these 2 deals together and it makes me think that we HAVE acquired a shortstop already.

Homer Bailey
08-14-2009, 02:18 PM
What we recieved for the Weathers to Milwaukee deal hasn't been announced either, correct? If so, this leads me to believe we ARE getting JJ Hardy. If the Reds really believed in Janish, he would've been getting more playing time than once every 2 weeks or so. Put these 2 deals together and it makes me think that we HAVE acquired a shortstop already.

The Reds have a pool of players to select from, and they up until October 15th to make the selection. I doubt they would wait to take Hardy. Unless they are just trying to save on the money they would be paying him the rest of 2009.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm with you there. Of course, it's a bitter happiness. I'm thrilled he's gone, but it's disappointing that the best news always seems to come when the Reds finally show a lousy ballplayer the door. It'll be nice if we can ever be thrilled about something good, like a playoff appearance.

But oh well ... such is life when you're living through the Lost Decade.

I am glad to see the past moving on. Perhaps the future can arrive sooner.

Janish or Rosales batting second tonight? ;)

fearofpopvol1
08-14-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm kind of surprised at the hatred (or if not hatred...something less than nice) comments people have about Gonzo.

No doubt, hit tenure was a bust with the Reds, but that was primarily driven by injuries and a season in which his son had a life-threatning issue.

His bat was never good, but his glove was when he was healthy. His glove this year was above average. If Dusty had batted him 8th (or at least 7th), it would've made the Reds a better team.

With all that said, there was no need for him to play out the rest of this season or next with the Reds. Shipping him off was the right move.

Patrick Bateman
08-14-2009, 02:21 PM
If the Brewers wanted to get rid of JJ Hardy, they would have gotten a heck of a lot more than David Weathers.

Given that the Brewers obviously like Escobar, I think Hardy is a logical target and could be had at a discount price.

But I think it's taking more than a leap of faith to suggest that these two moves are linked.

Strikes Out Looking
08-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Seabass released to the waters of the Back Bay.

This is a good deal for the Reds no matter who they get back. I think his signing wasn't a bad thing at the time, but injuries and other circumstances really held him back in Cincy. Janish can give us exactly the same production at less money and a possible upside (that he can continue to improve). Plus the Reds save some more money this year.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Regardless, good luck to Gonzo in Boston. Beat the Yanks!

:thumbdown

Boston has become every bit the Evil Empire that the Yankees are, with a far more obnoxious fan base and far less history to back it up.

Red Sox fans are Cubs fans without the Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirts and W flags.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:26 PM
1:20pm: Rob Bradford of WEEI.com reports that the Red Sox are sending minor league shortstop Kris Negron to Cincinnati in the deal. The Red Sox selected the 23-year-old in the seventh round of the 2006 draft and he's now hitting .264/.338/.347 with 20 steals in high-A ball.

Strikes Out Looking
08-14-2009, 02:26 PM
WEEI in Boston is reporting the Reds get a High A shortstop back. http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/213257/red-sox-get-gonzalez-minor-league-shortstop

_Sir_Charles_
08-14-2009, 02:30 PM
If the Brewers wanted to get rid of JJ Hardy, they would have gotten a heck of a lot more than David Weathers.

Given that the Brewers obviously like Escobar, I think Hardy is a logical target and could be had at a discount price.

But I think it's taking more than a leap of faith to suggest that these two moves are linked.

Well, I'm far from an expert in the ways PTBNL deals work. I was just tossing out the idea.

I liked Gonzo's glove, but his bat was a black hole. I'm glad he's moved on to a better opportunity for the playoffs. But that being said, we've dealt off Hairston & now Gonzo. I seriously don't see Walt doing that unless he's got something CERTAIN in mind to replace them...and it won't be Janish or Rosales (at least not long term).

Phillips to short / Frazier to 2nd
Hardy brought in
Hardy brought in after the season and Janish finishes it out

Something along those lines are what "should" happen. Can't wait to see.

Edd Roush
08-14-2009, 02:31 PM
The Reds have to be sending money in this deal, right? Why else would the Sox not claim him off waivers?

Eric_the_Red
08-14-2009, 02:32 PM
:thumbdown

Boston has become every bit the Evil Empire that the Yankees are, with a far more obnoxious fan base and far less history to back it up.

Red Sox fans are Cubs fans without the Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirts and W flags.

A far more obnoxious fan base than the Yankees? Impossible.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:32 PM
Scouting Report: Speedy infielder plays 2B, SS, 3B, and all three OF positions. Top notch glove with excellent range. At the plate, Negron gets on base at an okay clip, but the hits just aren't there enough. He has a good eye at the plate but still hacks on pitches out of the zone on occasion. Exceptionally fast down the line to first, and quick on the basepaths. Negron would be a prototypical leadoff hitter if he could make more contact.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=502117

Info from post by redhawk61 in the SunDeck

15fan
08-14-2009, 02:33 PM
They aren't as scary as they used to be and an out machine at SS will be an issue for them.

They can always DH for him.

Eric_the_Red
08-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Negron would be a prototypical leadoff hitter if he could make more contact.

Don't we already have one of those on the team?

westofyou
08-14-2009, 02:37 PM
They can always DH for him.

The designated hitter cannot be used for any other player but the pitcher

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 02:38 PM
The Reds have to be sending money in this deal, right? Why else would the Sox not claim him off waivers?

The way the process works is the club can claim the guy on waivers and then the club holding the contract can either let him go (which didn't occur), pull him back, or work out a deal. Since it appears Gonzo cleared waivers, then it's up to the two clubs to work a deal. There doesn't have to be money there and it wasn't just for the Sox to grab him because the Reds always held the right to pull him back, giving them some leverage in the transaction.

osuceltic
08-14-2009, 02:38 PM
Gonzo was our best SS on the roster (other than, perhaps, Phillips).

He was a FA after this season anyway.

It's really a nothing move, but should save us money.

That's why I don't get the celebration. If Phillips moves to SS, that will make the next six weeks more interesting, but as I posted in the other thread, I'll be shocked if that happens.

So we saved Castellini some money. A rich guy gets a little richer. We most likely get stuck watching Janish play SS every day. And I'm supposed to be excited about that?

If we had to dump Gonzo while paying half of his remaining salary just to free up the other half for draft picks, this franchise really is in trouble.

BRM
08-14-2009, 02:38 PM
So the return is a 23 year old utility player in High-A. Plays good defense but can't hit. That's actually more than I thought they would get back.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:41 PM
So the return is a 23 year old utility player in High-A. Plays good defense but can't hit. That's actually more than I thought they would get back.
Seems like a better return than the Hairston deal.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-14-2009, 02:44 PM
Plays good defense but can't hit. That's actually more than I thought they would get back.

The Reds corner the market in good-field, no-hit shortstops.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 02:44 PM
That's why I don't get the celebration. If Phillips moves to SS, that will make the next six weeks more interesting, but as I posted in the other thread, I'll be shocked if that happens.

So we saved Castellini some money. A rich guy gets a little richer. We most likely get stuck watching Janish play SS every day. And I'm supposed to be excited about that?

If we had to dump Gonzo while paying half of his remaining salary just to free up the other half for draft picks, this franchise really is in trouble.

I'm not going to be surprised if Janish/Rosales finish out the season at short. A move over to short for Phillips generally is a spring training type move, don't you think? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but at this point, Frazier has just moved to 2nd and is still just at AA. I just don't see that happening given that possible approach. It's a lost season and I'm glad to see the Reds finally considering that moving BP might be a possible solution, but I see no reason to make that move immediately.

Brutus
08-14-2009, 02:45 PM
That's why I don't get the celebration. If Phillips moves to SS, that will make the next six weeks more interesting, but as I posted in the other thread, I'll be shocked if that happens.

So we saved Castellini some money. A rich guy gets a little richer. We most likely get stuck watching Janish play SS every day. And I'm supposed to be excited about that?

If we had to dump Gonzo while paying half of his remaining salary just to free up the other half for draft picks, this franchise really is in trouble.

The excitement is that people know the Reds do not have Gonzalez in their plans for next season. Though it was assumed the Reds would not pick up his option, there was some people holding their collective breaths to make sure it didn't happen. That's why people are rejoicing, I think.

westofyou
08-14-2009, 02:45 PM
Rosales at third and Jannish at SS.... twenty years ago it was Scotty Madison and Jeff Richardson.

So very....Quantum Leap

BRM
08-14-2009, 02:46 PM
From Rotoworld:


Reds acquired SS Kristopher Negron from the Red Sox for SS Alex Gonzalez.

Negron, a 23-year-old infielder and seventh-round pick from 2006, has hit .264/.338/.347 in 409 at-bats for Class-A Salem this year. He's got some speed, swiping 20 bags in 23 attempts, but he has a lot to prove and projects as a backup infielder at best.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 02:46 PM
A far more obnoxious fan base than the Yankees? Impossible.


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78085

Nasty_Boy
08-14-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm just hoping that this removes all temptation to bring him back next season! ;)

blumj
08-14-2009, 02:48 PM
So the return is a 23 year old utility player in High-A. Plays good defense but can't hit. That's actually more than I thought they would get back.
Unless he's already been removed, soxprospects doesn't have him ranked in their top 60.

WMR
08-14-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm not going to be surprised if Janish/Rosales finish out the season at short. A move over to short for Phillips generally is a spring training type move, don't you think? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but at this point, Frazier has just moved to 2nd and is still just at AA. I just don't see that happening given that possible approach. It's a lost season and I'm glad to see the Reds finally considering that moving BP might be a possible solution, but I see no reason to make that move immediately.

No, they need to do it now. They need to find out what they've got there so they can adequately know the proper targets for this off-season.

BRM
08-14-2009, 02:50 PM
No, they need to do it now. They need to find out what they've got there so they can adequately know the proper targets for this off-season.

Agreed. Unless Walt already has a deal in the works for a SS (Hardy), then put Phillips there right away. Give him the rest of the season to get his feet wet.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:52 PM
No, they need to do it now. They need to find out what they've got there so they can adequately know the proper targets for this off-season.
x3 If the Reds do make the switch they'll have the next two months to decide whether to make it permanent. Although I'll still be surprised if BP is moved to short.

blumj
08-14-2009, 02:53 PM
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=12686
No one's posted anything in Negron's thread in the SOSH adopt a prospect forum in over over a year.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 02:55 PM
Right now I'm more interested in how much cash is involved.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 02:56 PM
Agreed. Unless Walt already has a deal in the works for a SS (Hardy), then put Phillips there right away. Give him the rest of the season to get his feet wet.

I would like to think that the last 48 games could be a good pre-spring training auditioning time. Though they never seem to have any interest in moving Phillips to short.

Kc61
08-14-2009, 02:57 PM
I assume Janish will get some reps at shortstop. I wouldn't be surprised if Janish playing short results in 500 posts on RedsZone about the FO being terrible because BP isn't at short.

My concern about Phillips at short is the throwing. He's just used to a much shorter throw and could take quite awhile for him to re-adjust. I'd much prefer to get a good shortstop somewhere and keep BP at second.

But if Janish is at short when the lineup is posted, this place will explode.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 02:58 PM
x3 If the Reds do make the switch they'll have the next two months to decide whether to make it permanent. Although I'll still be surprised if BP is moved to short.

I understand what you're all saying, but I don't really expect them to make that move this late in the season. I personally think Phillips is capable of moving back there, so they keep him where he is now. If a shortstop comes along, they can go that avenue, if a 2nd baseman comes along, they can make the switch. I would be surprised if Brandon falls on his face over there and you're probably all right that they ought to take a look, but it's not going to bother me if they don't.

westofyou
08-14-2009, 02:58 PM
Right now I'm more interested in how much cash is involved.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9935104/Source:-BoSox-may-turn-to-familiar-face-for-SS-help


The Reds, 13 games back in the NL Central, almost certainly would be open to trading Gonzalez. They recently added payroll by acquiring Blue Jays third baseman Scott Rolen, and could save more than $1.5 million by moving the rest of Gonzalez's $5.375 million salary.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 03:01 PM
I assume Janish will get some reps at shortstop. I wouldn't be surprised if Janish playing short results in 500 posts on RedsZone about the FO being terrible because BP isn't at short.

My concern about Phillips at short is the throwing. He's just used to a much shorter throw and could take quite awhile for him to re-adjust. I'd much prefer to get a good shortstop somewhere and keep BP at second.

But if Janish is at short when the lineup is posted, this place will explode.

I wonder if Sutton will get a little more playing time since Mr. Jocketty brought him aboard.

I think you're right about Janish getting the playing time.

WMR
08-14-2009, 03:03 PM
Does Boston know that Gonzo bats 2nd?

SirFelixCat
08-14-2009, 03:06 PM
Good move by Walt. BP has to be trying out SS now, right?

blumj
08-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Does Boston know that Gonzo bats 2nd?
Sorry, SS bats 9th in Boston, CF still leads off, but the reigning AL MVP bats 2nd.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 03:07 PM
I doubt that's the case westofyou. I'd love it if it was. But if it is than why wouldn't the Sox just claim him. I'm thinking the Reds are including some money in the deal.

Tom Servo
08-14-2009, 03:08 PM
I left the house today at around noon and just got in a few minutes ago and had a feeling there would be a "Gonzalez to Boston" thread stickied.


I'm more of an A-Gon apologist than most but it makes all the sense in the world to trade him and I wish him the best of luck.

bucksfan2
08-14-2009, 03:09 PM
I doubt that's the case westofyou. If it is than why wouldn't the Sox just claim him. I'm thinking the Reds are including some money in the deal.

I don't think so. If they do it would be very little. The Reds Sox are desparate right now. They are falling out of contention in the AL East and need help at SS. While Gonzo may not be perfect, he has played there before, won't hurt them at SS, and may find the seats in the Green Monster a handful of times as the season goes along. IMO the Red Sox needed this move much more than the Reds did.

blumj
08-14-2009, 03:09 PM
I doubt that's the case westofyou. If it is than why wouldn't the Sox just claim him. I'm thinking the Reds are including some money in the deal.
That's what's going around up here, that there's money included.

Brutus
08-14-2009, 03:09 PM
I wonder now if this means that:

THIS (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78106)

has any credibility from last night on the Sun Deck.

If it's just a coincidence, it's a biggon'

REDREAD
08-14-2009, 03:10 PM
The way the process works is the club can claim the guy on waivers and then the club holding the contract can either let him go (which didn't occur), pull him back, or work out a deal. Since it appears Gonzo cleared waivers, then it's up to the two clubs to work a deal. There doesn't have to be money there and it wasn't just for the Sox to grab him because the Reds always held the right to pull him back, giving them some leverage in the transaction.

Or maybe the Red Sox did claim him off waivers. Waivers are supposed to be secret, there's been times in the past where the press reported something incorrectly.

blumj
08-14-2009, 03:11 PM
I don't think so. If they do it would be very little. The Reds Sox are desparate right now. They are falling out of contention in the AL East and need help at SS. While Gonzo may not be perfect, he has played there before, won't hurt them at SS, and may find the seats in the Green Monster a handful of times as the season goes along. IMO the Red Sox needed this move much more than the Reds did.

Stop, no one gets "desperate" for Alex Gonzalez. Seriously.

Reds Fanatic
08-14-2009, 03:12 PM
This is from Hal McCoy's article:


Soxprospects.com describes Negron as exceptionally fast down the line to first, and quick on the basepaths. The site goes on to say that Negron would be a prototypical leadoff hitter if he could make more contact.

CTA513
08-14-2009, 03:12 PM
Sorry, SS bats 9th in Boston, CF still leads off, but the reigning AL MVP bats 2nd.


Short guy going bald bats 2nd.

:p:

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 03:12 PM
That's what's going around up here, that there's money included.
What are you hearing up there? Anything more than speculation?

I wonder now if this means that:

THIS (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78106)

has any credibility from last night on the Sun Deck.

If it's just a coincidence, it's a biggon'
Yeah, I know that 'coincidence' definitely is interesting IF BP did take some grounders at short.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Or maybe the Red Sox did claim him off waivers. Waivers are supposed to be secret, there's been times in the past where the press reported something incorrectly.
That's possible.

camisadelgolf
08-14-2009, 03:16 PM
The only way I wouldn't like this deal is if AGon qualifies as a type B free agent, causing the Reds to lose out on a draft pick. Fortunately, it looks like he won't qualify, so the Reds are going to clear a 40-man roster spot, save money, get minor league depth, and get a better look at shortstop candidates for next season. There's nothing to not like about this deal imo.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 03:18 PM
So, who gets the call to Cincinnati? There's at least 1 opening on the 40-man right now, and there's no glaring hole on the big league roster -- they could call up whoever they want, the way I see it.

I'm guessing Stubbs.

Tom Servo
08-14-2009, 03:25 PM
So, who gets the call to Cincinnati? There's at least 1 opening on the 40-man right now, and there's no glaring hole on the big league roster -- they could call up whoever they want, the way I see it.

I'm guessing Stubbs.
Could be Stubbs, but with Gomes, Nix, Balentien, Dickerson (and even Taveras) playing for a shot at next year it would be hard for him to play regularly (and keep everyone happy).

M2
08-14-2009, 03:27 PM
My concern about Phillips at short is the throwing. He's just used to a much shorter throw and could take quite awhile for him to re-adjust.

And that might be a valid concern, but the only way to know for sure is to play him the rest of this season at SS. If he doesn't take to it, then get a SS. If he does, then the club has the option of getting a SS or a 2B.

CarolinaRedleg
08-14-2009, 03:27 PM
Does Boston know that Gonzo bats 2nd?

Only if Francona ascribes to the theory of Dustymetrics, dude.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 03:29 PM
If the Reds move Phillips to short there might be a RedsZone meltdown from the shock.

camisadelgolf
08-14-2009, 03:29 PM
I'd expect to see a pitcher called up seeing as how both Cueto and Bailey have had very short starts lately, resulting in the bullpen being a bit taxed. If Owings isn't ready to come back from rehab, I think it'll be Ramon Ramirez, Matt Maloney, or Sam LeCure.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 03:29 PM
I doubt that's the case westofyou. I'd love it if it was. But if it is than why wouldn't the Sox just claim him. I'm thinking the Reds are including some money in the deal.

They may not have claimed him because they hadn't decided how they were going to handle their shortstop situation at the time. Likewise, it was simple enough for the Reds to pull the player back if Boston didn't want to work out a trade. It's not a given that we're giving one dime to Boston and the fact that this transaction came down like this, doesn't say one way or the other whether we're paying any of the contract. I'm not saying it's not possible that we are, but there's no evidence either way at this point. But Boston couldn't just claim him and take him without us either allowing that or working out a trade then because clubs always have the option to pull the player back.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 03:30 PM
Hey, remember when the Reds were going to pick up the 6 mill option because Walt Jocketty's never had a single original thought in his life?

:p:

Eric_the_Red
08-14-2009, 03:30 PM
Perhaps Frazier comes up to play 2B with BP moving to SS? Get almost 2 months of practice to see if it is a viable option for 2010.

reds44
08-14-2009, 03:30 PM
Perhaps Frazier comes up to play 2B with BP moving to SS? Get almost 2 months of practice to see if it is a viable option for 2010.
That would be too easy.

bucksfan2
08-14-2009, 03:31 PM
Perhaps Frazier comes up to play 2B with BP moving to SS? Get almost 2 months of practice to see if it is a viable option for 2010.

Is Frazier in AA or AAA?

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 03:33 PM
I'd expect to see a pitcher called up seeing as how both Cueto and Bailey have had very short starts lately, resulting in the bullpen being a bit taxed. If Owings isn't ready to come back from rehab, I think it'll be Ramon Ramirez, Matt Maloney, or Sam LeCure.

That makes good sense -- you're probably right.

Edd Roush
08-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Perhaps Frazier comes up to play 2B with BP moving to SS? Get almost 2 months of practice to see if it is a viable option for 2010.

:thumbup: I like this thought.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Is Frazier in AA or AAA?

I believe he's still at AA.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:34 PM
Is Frazier in AA or AAA?

AA. I can't see him getting called up.

jojo
08-14-2009, 03:34 PM
Hey, remember when the Reds were going to pick up the 6 mill option because Walt Jocketty's never had a single original thought in his life?

:p:

Maybe Epstein saved him from himself (Jocketty) out of respect for his elders? :cool:

blumj
08-14-2009, 03:34 PM
What are you hearing up there? Anything more than speculation?
Just secondhand stuff, somebody on another board posted that he heard a reporter say it on the radio.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 03:38 PM
Just secondhand stuff, somebody on another board posted that he heard a reporter say it on the radio.

Apparently it's 1.1 million to the Sox, meaning, I think, that the Reds save about a million overall (taking into account the .5 million buyout).

Edd Roush
08-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Apparently it's 1.1 million to the Sox, meaning, I think, that the Reds save about a million overall (taking into account the .5 million buyout).

Very acceptable to me. I hope the Reds didn't chip in any extra money for this prospect, though.

Reds Fanatic
08-14-2009, 03:42 PM
Kevin Barker is being called up:


The Reds confirmed SS Alex Gonzalez was traded to Boston today but did not say who/what Boston will send in return. Reports are it is A-level SS Kris Negron.

The Reds also said 1B Kevin Barker is being called up from Louisville. Barker, a first baseman, is hitting .284 with 22 HR, 68 rbi this year.

REDREAD
08-14-2009, 03:43 PM
The only way I wouldn't like this deal is if AGon qualifies as a type B free agent, causing the Reds to lose out on a draft pick. Fortunately, it looks like he won't qualify, so the Reds are going to clear a 40-man roster spot, save money, get minor league depth, and get a better look at shortstop candidates for next season. There's nothing to not like about this deal imo.

In order to get the draft pick, the Reds would have to offer AGon arbitration (correct?) I would not want that to happen.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:43 PM
Can Barker play anywhere besides 1B?

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:44 PM
Walt confirmed it's Negron.

nate
08-14-2009, 03:44 PM
I know the math is complicated but does this essentially "zero" any salary taken on by getting Rolen? Between what the Jays are chipping in, trading Weathers and salary relief this year for Hairston and Gonzo, isn't it right around even now?

Tom Servo
08-14-2009, 03:45 PM
At long last the Kevin Barker era begins.

KronoRed
08-14-2009, 03:45 PM
Can Barker play anywhere besides 1B?

He can DH ;)
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Kevin-Barker.shtml

REDREAD
08-14-2009, 03:47 PM
Apparently it's 1.1 million to the Sox, meaning, I think, that the Reds save about a million overall (taking into account the .5 million buyout).

Kind of turns the move into a yawner then. Doesn't really save much money and it's not as if we got a good prospect. Not complaining about the move, but I'd hardly call it "great".

blumj
08-14-2009, 03:47 PM
Very acceptable to me. I hope the Reds didn't chip in any extra money for this prospect, though.
Seems unlikely, Negron is rule 5 eligible this winter and was in no danger of getting a spot on the Sox 40 man.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 03:49 PM
At long last the Kevin Barker era begins.

Guy has had a real good year at AAA (.920+ OPS). Completely deserved promotion based on performance. Probably sends a good message through the system.

MikeS21
08-14-2009, 03:50 PM
By the way, just got the text of tonight's lineup. Janish is at SS.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:51 PM
By the way, just got the text of tonight's lineup. Janish is at SS.

Shocking.

MikeS21
08-14-2009, 03:52 PM
Shocking.
Batting #2

WMR
08-14-2009, 03:52 PM
By the way, just got the text of tonight's lineup. Janish is at SS.

Of course he is. Good ole Reds, the Lost Decade marches on.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:52 PM
Batting #2

:laugh:

M2
08-14-2009, 03:53 PM
Guy has had a real good year at AAA (.920+ OPS). Completely deserved promotion based on performance. Probably sends a good message through the system.

They should set him on fire before the start of tonight's game. That would be a good message to send.

KronoRed
08-14-2009, 03:53 PM
Guy has had a real good year at AAA (.920+ OPS). Completely deserved promotion based on performance. Probably sends a good message through the system.
Maybe, but he's journeyman fodder on his 6th organization at 34 years of age, he's up because he'll be easy to get rid of when something better arrives.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 03:54 PM
I know the math is complicated but does this essentially "zero" any salary taken on by getting Rolen? Between what the Jays are chipping in, trading Weathers and salary relief this year for Hairston and Gonzo, isn't it right around even now?
You might be right nate. Financially, at least, it could be about the same now.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Of course he is. Good ole Reds, the Lost Decade marches on.

I'll take Janish's glove in a heartbeat over Gonzalez's. I'm willing to give the Phillips to SS experiment an entire spring training. This season doesn't matter in the standings, but keeping extra runners off base does matter to kids like Cueto, and Janish at SS is best.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Sometimes it just hurts being a Reds fan. In the spirit of M2's suggestion, maybe we should just set ourselves on fire.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Guy has had a real good year at AAA (.920+ OPS). Completely deserved promotion based on performance. Probably sends a good message through the system.

I think it also recognizes that Rosales will be spending time filling in at other positions. It gives us a true back up at 1st base which we haven't really had all year, have we?

WMR
08-14-2009, 03:57 PM
I'll take Janish's glove in a heartbeat over Gonzalez's. I'm willing to give the Phillips to SS experiment an entire spring training. This season doesn't matter in the standings, but keeping extra runners off base does matter to kids like Cueto, and Janish at SS is best.

Thing is, m2 made a very good point: try it now and if it works then you can go after EITHER a SS or 2bman this winter.

The Reds are unnecessarily hamstringing themselves yet again. Hardly a surprise, however.

BRM
08-14-2009, 03:57 PM
I'll take Janish's glove in a heartbeat over Gonzalez's. I'm willing to give the Phillips to SS experiment an entire spring training. This season doesn't matter in the standings, but keeping extra runners off base does matter to kids like Cueto, and Janish at SS is best.

I agree with the first sentence. The rest, I disagree. I'd rather see it now. Find out if Phillips is the man over there. It will let Walt know what he needs to shop for this winter. Or it may at least give him more options when he does shop.

blumj
08-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Does this mean that we get to make fun of the folks at SoSH for once?
Just saw this. What were you waiting for? Nick Green and claiming Chris Woodward off waivers?

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Well, Dusty has upgraded the #2 spot in the order. By nearly .40 points. At least we have that going for us.

Reds4Life
08-14-2009, 04:01 PM
I was hoping they wouldn't have to send that much cash. Deal is a wash in that case, they really aren't saving much money.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:01 PM
Thing is, m2 made a very good point: try it now and if it works then you can go after EITHER a SS or 2bman this winter.

The Reds are unnecessarily hamstringing themselves yet again. Hardly a surprise, however.

My guess is that the decision has been made vis Phillips to SS. It will happen, but not in midstream. Right now, if I'm the Reds, I'm trying to put the tightest defense possible on the field (to preserve what's left of this rag-arm staff they keep pumping out there).

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:02 PM
I was hoping they wouldn't have to send that much cash. Deal is a wash in that case, they really aren't saving much money.

Gets a crappy defender off the roster. I'll take it.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 04:05 PM
I was hoping they wouldn't have to send that much cash. Deal is a wash in that case, they really aren't saving much money.
Eh they got something. Better than keeping him til the end of the year. One by one they're getting rid of the players that didn't have a spot on the 2010 team.

Edd Roush
08-14-2009, 04:10 PM
Tatum is catching tonight, which makes Janish in the two-hole a little more palatable. If Hanigan is batting eighth with Janish in the two hole, I will have lost most of what little hope I had for this management team.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:10 PM
My guess is that the decision has been made vis Phillips to SS. It will happen, but not in midstream. Right now, if I'm the Reds, I'm trying to put the tightest defense possible on the field (to preserve what's left of this rag-arm staff they keep pumping out there).

If that's the thinking then the Reds are beyond hope.

The Reds have to come up with a middle IF to pair with Phillips and they can't do that if they don't know whether he can stick at SS. Waiting until spring training would be ... well, I'm not allowed to type to the words for it.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Tatum is catching tonight, which makes Janish in the two-hole a little more palatable. If Hanigan is batting eighth with Janish in the two hole, I will have lost most of what little hope I had for this management team.

My take is that it just doesn't matter with Dusty. He could have an Albert Pujols clone at every position on the diamond, except for SS, and the scrub at SS would still bat second. It's just a fact of life.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:17 PM
If that's the thinking then the Reds are beyond hope.

The Reds have to come up with a middle IF to pair with Phillips and they can't do that if they don't know whether he can stick at SS. Waiting until spring training would be ... well, I'm not allowed to type to the words for it.

He can play SS. I don't think there's any question about that. I don't think that's the issue.

I think Phillips at SS and Frazier is a nice step in the offensive department, but a pretty solid stone weight in the defensive. Who knows, maybe they'll do it in September? In other words, I don't feel any need to be hasteful about pairing Frazier and Phillips. It would be interesting, but it's hardly time-sensitive.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Waiting until spring training would be ... well, I'm not allowed to type to the words for it.


Redsesque?

dougdirt
08-14-2009, 04:18 PM
He can play SS. I don't think there's any question about that.

What is this based on? He certainly hasn't shown he can play there in several years.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:19 PM
What is this based on? He certainly hasn't shown he can play there in several years.

Because they've never moved him. They've never even asked seriously.

I see no reason he'd have lost his skills.

HokieRed
08-14-2009, 04:19 PM
The way I read Jocketty is that he's not really that interested in playing people out of position. I don't think Janish is going to be any kind of long term answer at SS; there's no reason to worry that much about the move of BP right now because our only credible in-house candidate at 2nd is at AA and I don't think he's there because the organization is stupid; he's there because he's not ready yet for the move. I predict they're preparing Frazier to be a supersub, Phillips will be next year's 2b, and there will be another shortstop not now in the org. at SS next year.
By the way, I've seen Negron; he is really fast and quick at SS. Are we sure he's a rule 5guy? Be interesting to see if they put him at AA and move Cozart right away to AAA. If so, that might also be a sign of who they really think--from within--has a chance to be in the middle infield next year.

Doc. Scott
08-14-2009, 04:20 PM
Janish hasn't shown any indication he can hit major-league pitching. If his D were Adam Everett-level good, fine; but I wouldn't put it quite at that level.

He's got a chance to show he can hit a tiny bit, though, and I don't mind him getting the starts at short the rest of the year so the Reds can see what kind of role he's going to be able to fill (if any) going forward.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:20 PM
He can play SS. I don't think there's any question about that. I don't think that's the issue.


You are far more confident in that than I am. I'd like to see him there for awhile before coming to any conclusions.

icehole3
08-14-2009, 04:20 PM
He can play there just as well as Hairston???

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:21 PM
You are far more confident in that than I am. I'd like to see him there for awhile before coming to any conclusions.

Phillips has seen a ton of time at SS. Unless he's hurt himself, I don't understand where his skills would have gone.

11larkin11
08-14-2009, 04:22 PM
Believe me, you don't forget a position you've grown accustomed to, especially one you play all through HS and the minor leagues

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:23 PM
The way I read Jocketty is that he's not really that interested in playing people out of position. I don't think Janish is going to be any kind of long term answer at SS; there's no reason to worry that much about the move of BP right now because our only credible in-house candidate at 2nd is at AA and I don't think he's there because the organization is stupid; he's there because he's not ready yet for the move. I predict they're preparing Frazier to be a supersub, Phillips will be next year's 2b, and there will be another shortstop not now in the org. at SS next year.
By the way, I've seen Negron; he is really fast and quick at SS. Are we sure he's a rule 5guy? Be interesting to see if they put him at AA and move Cozart right away to AAA. If so, that might also be a sign of who they really think--from within--has a chance to be in the middle infield next year.

This is certainly possible too.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:24 PM
Phillips has seen a ton of time at SS. Unless he's hurt himself, I don't understand where his skills would have gone.

A ton of time several years ago. In theory, I agree. His skills shouldn't have vanished. I'd still like to see him there over a couple of months now to help Walt decide what he should buy this winter.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:25 PM
He can play SS. I don't think there's any question about that. I don't think that's the issue.

I think Phillips at SS and Frazier is a nice step in the offensive department, but a pretty solid stone weight in the defensive. Who knows, maybe they'll do it in September? In other words, I don't feel any need to be hasteful about pairing Frazier and Phillips. It would be interesting, but it's hardly time-sensitive.

Phillips holding down the SS job is far from a given. If the Reds don't take a long look at him now, then, should they shift him after the season, they're building the team on little more than haphazard guesswork. It's Aaron Boone to 2B all over again.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:26 PM
A ton of time several years ago. In theory, I agree. His skills shouldn't have vanished. I'd still like to see him there over a couple of months now to help Walt decide what he should buy this winter.

Two months isn't particularly instructive. The decision's been made; good defense is on the 25 man.

This team is belly up. Go defense-heavy. Give the other team only 27 outs.

Strikes Out Looking
08-14-2009, 04:26 PM
How is Negron a rule 5 guy? His first pro season was 2006, so that makes 2010 his fifth year, or is there a rule 5 rule for guys who are still in A in their fourth pro season?

Chip R
08-14-2009, 04:26 PM
By the way, I've seen Negron; he is really fast and quick at SS. Are we sure he's a rule 5guy? Be interesting to see if they put him at AA and move Cozart right away to AAA. If so, that might also be a sign of who they really think--from within--has a chance to be in the middle infield next year.


I might have seen him play a couple of weeks ago. I'll have to check my scorecard from that game.

osuceltic
08-14-2009, 04:27 PM
If that's the thinking then the Reds are beyond hope.

The Reds have to come up with a middle IF to pair with Phillips and they can't do that if they don't know whether he can stick at SS. Waiting until spring training would be ... well, I'm not allowed to type to the words for it.

Because they don't want to take one of their best players, switch his position with six weeks to go in the season, to a spot he hasn't played in about five years, that requires difficult and sometimes dangerous turns around the bag, and create just as glaring a hole at the spot he vacates?

Sorry, but switching sides of second base isn't as simple as you make it out to be. It isn't impossible -- and maybe the Reds will do it this season -- but acting like it's a no-brainer really isn't accurate.

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Two months isn't particularly instructive. The decision's been made; good defense is on the 25 man.

This team is belly up. Go defense-heavy.

It's certainly better than 0 months. And that does Walt no good this winter. Unless he's hell-bent on leaving Phillips at 2B and going full-bore for a SS.

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Phillips has seen a ton of time at SS. Unless he's hurt himself, I don't understand where his skills would have gone.

It's not the time there that's the issue. The issue is how good was he when he was there. The Indians wanted to move him to 2b as well. Granted he was behind Peralta, but that just means we don't know how good he was, or will be now.

But reason enough to have him split time there with Janish until the season ends. I still would like to see what Janish can do as a regular. His glove might be good enough to justify his bat.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:29 PM
It's certainly better than 0 months. And that does Walt no good this winter. Unless he's hell-bent on leaving Phillips at 2B and going full-bore for a SS.

It makes the defense weaker for the last 6/7 weeks of the season, though.

osuceltic
08-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Phillips has seen a ton of time at SS. Unless he's hurt himself, I don't understand where his skills would have gone.

Maybe two different organizations decided his skills were best suited for second base.

dougdirt
08-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Because they've never moved him. They've never even asked seriously.

I see no reason he'd have lost his skills.

Age. Of course there is also the question of, did he ever truly have the skills to be a shortstop? He never has played it in the majors (ok, 19 innings worth since he came up in 2002). Is there a reason for that other than Omar Vizquel?

BRM
08-14-2009, 04:30 PM
It makes the defense weaker for the last 6/7 weeks of the season, though.

You think Phillips would be significantly weaker at SS than Gonzalez was?

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 04:32 PM
You think Phillips would be significantly weaker at SS than Gonzalez was?

They'd be weaker at SS and 2nd with Phillips/Frazier or whoever than they would with Janish and Phillips. Two positions getting hurt at once.

Phillips/Janish gives the Reds the optimal IF configuration on their 40 man roster.

KronoRed
08-14-2009, 04:32 PM
It's certainly better than 0 months. And that does Walt no good this winter. Unless he's hell-bent on leaving Phillips at 2B and going full-bore for a SS.

That's my guess as to what is going to happen, if Phillips were going to move it would be happening, it's a dead issue IMO and the target this off season will be a SS.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
Because they don't want to take one of their best players, switch his position with six weeks to go in the season, to a spot he hasn't played in about five years, that requires difficult and sometimes dangerous turns around the bag, and create just as glaring a hole at the spot he vacates?

Sorry, but switching sides of second base isn't as simple as you make it out to be. It isn't impossible -- and maybe the Reds will do it this season -- but acting like it's a no-brainer really isn't accurate.

Exactly because it isn't a no-brainer is why they have to do it now.

First off, who cares if they've got a hole at 2B for the rest of the season if Phillips shifts over? They've got a hole at SS with him at 2B. Same difference.

Second, what if Phillips can't hack it at SS? If the Reds decide to switch him over untested and install a new 2B they might very well find themselves in a position where they've got two 2Bs (at least one of whom will be earning a fair amount of money) and no SS. Only a complete fool would invite that kind of preventable calamity.

If the Reds are seriously thinking about Phillips at SS next year, then he merits a trial there starting immediately. If they aren't thinking about it, then it's a moot point and a SS must be found.

blumj
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
How is Negron a rule 5 guy? His first pro season was 2006, so that makes 2010 his fifth year, or is there a rule 5 rule for guys who are still in A in their fourth pro season?

I could be wrong, he was included on a list of rule 5 eligibles in the minor league forum on SOSH.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=44411

And, it looks like I was wrong, he's listed under the 2010 outlook heading. Sorry.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 04:33 PM
The way I read Jocketty is that he's not really that interested in playing people out of position. I don't think Janish is going to be any kind of long term answer at SS; there's no reason to worry that much about the move of BP right now because our only credible in-house candidate at 2nd is at AA and I don't think he's there because the organization is stupid; he's there because he's not ready yet for the move. I predict they're preparing Frazier to be a supersub, Phillips will be next year's 2b, and there will be another shortstop not now in the org. at SS next year.

Agree with Hokie here. I strongly doubt they move Phillips, and, personally, I doubt he'd make the shift successfully. He doesn't really have the feet for SS, in my opinion, and who knows how accurate his arm would be. If it's a move they want to experiment with, it makes more sense to give it a go in spring training, when he can get loads of reps before getting into game action.

My guess is they've got other designs (Hardy or a free agent). I doubt Jocketty moves AGon without a plan to replace him with someone better than Janish.

15fan
08-14-2009, 04:34 PM
Because they don't want to take one of their best players, switch his position with six weeks to go in the season, to a spot he hasn't played in about five years, that requires difficult and sometimes dangerous turns around the bag, and create just as glaring a hole at the spot he vacates?

Sorry, but switching sides of second base isn't as simple as you make it out to be. It isn't impossible -- and maybe the Reds will do it this season -- but acting like it's a no-brainer really isn't accurate.

But that's exactly why you do it now. Take a look at Phillips at SS for 6 weeks in real live games. See if he can cut it over there. If he can, then you enter the off-season knowing that you can acquire either a SS (and leave Phillips at 2b) or a 2b (and move Phillips to SS). If, however, you see that Phillips isn't going to cut it at SS, then you know that you have to focus on acquiring a legit SS this offseason.

If you wait until Spring Training 2010 to see Phillips at SS, you've pissed away an entire off-season of wheeling and dealing to fill the MI hole that you've had for quite a while already.

Identify the hole, then address it.

Playing Phillips at SS is the first part of that process.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 04:38 PM
Because they don't want to take one of their best players, switch his position with six weeks to go in the season, to a spot he hasn't played in about five years, that requires difficult and sometimes dangerous turns around the bag, and create just as glaring a hole at the spot he vacates?



So when do you do it; during ST when he plays 2-3 innings at a time against guys who aren't necessarily going all out? This isn't like moving Dunn to 1st or Kearns to 3rd. This is a position he's familiar with and played quite well in the past. He's also not going to have to make that pivot that he does at 2nd so the turns argument is a non-starter.

This isn't irrevocable. If he can't do the job at SS, you can always move him back to 2nd.

redsfandan
08-14-2009, 04:39 PM
I could be wrong, he was included on a list of rule 5 eligibles in the minor league forum on SOSH.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=44411

And, it looks like I was wrong, he's listed under the 2010 outlook heading. Sorry.
IIRC, there's a major league rule V draft and a minor league rule V draft. So he may have been eligible for the minors draft only.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:42 PM
I still would like to see what Janish can do as a regular. His glove might be good enough to justify his bat.

Given his bat, Janish needs to be one of the best defensive middle infielders on the planet in order to justify keeping a utility role.

bucksfan2
08-14-2009, 04:42 PM
FWIW I don't think Phillips would make a good SS right now. At times his footwork gets lazy at 2b. His natural ability and good arm strength make up for that lazy footwork, especially at 2b. IMO you need much better footwork and a much quicker release at SS than you do at 2b. He is a top notch 2b, I think he would be a below average SS.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:43 PM
FWIW I don't think Phillips would make a good SS right now. At times his footwork gets lazy at 2b. His natural ability and good arm strength make up for that lazy footwork, especially at 2b. IMO you need much better footwork and a much quicker release at SS than you do at 2b. He is a top notch 2b, I think he would be a below average SS.

You might be right, but why should the Reds speculate? They could actually find out for themselves.

*BaseClogger*
08-14-2009, 04:45 PM
This has to be the first time this year when it is a gurantee I won't be upset at who Dusty puts at SS (not AGon or Hairston)...

lollipopcurve
08-14-2009, 04:46 PM
You might be right, but why should the Reds speculate? They could actually find out for themselves.

They may already have strong enough suspicions to know they'd rather have a GG 2nd baseman.

blumj
08-14-2009, 04:47 PM
This has to be the first time this year when it is a gurantee I won't be upset at who Dusty puts at SS (not AGon or Hairston)...
Meanwhile, I will still be upset no matter who Tito puts at SS...

osuceltic
08-14-2009, 04:48 PM
You might be right, but why should the Reds speculate? They could actually find out for themselves.

I doubt they're speculating. I think the Reds know better than anyone here what they have. If they think he'd be a good shortstop -- not passable, but good -- they will consider moving him. My guess is they know he's a great second baseman and would rather find a good shortstop.

Really, all this talk about moving Phillips started because a kid in AA started playing second base all of a sudden. I think the people here are way more interested in Phillips at SS than anyone with the Reds.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:51 PM
They may already have strong enough suspicions to know they'd rather have a GG 2nd baseman.

That's fine. I remain unconvinced SS will be addressed any better this offseason than it was last season, when it was just as glaring a hole, yet if the Reds want to keep Phillips where he is, I get the logic.

It's the "shift him after the season" position that's pure madness.

Either Phillips isn't under consideration for SS or he should be there this week.

And, for the record, it would be very Redsesque make no decision on this, try him at SS next spring and be in a complete bind come April. Also, since when do the Reds know anything? We're years past the point where appeals to the authority of the Reds organization deserve any standing.

Big Klu
08-14-2009, 04:51 PM
Hey, remember when the Reds were going to pick up the 6 mill option because Walt Jocketty's never had a single original thought in his life?

:p:

I'm been thinking the same thing all day. I refuse to believe that this trade actually happened because I was guaranteed by the RedsZone Optimist Choir that it was a lead-pipe cinch that the Reds were going to pick up Gonzo's option.




You might be right, but why should the Reds speculate? They could actually find out for themselves.

Maybe they will. Just because Phiillips isn't playing SS tonight doesn't mean he can't play there tomorrow, or next week, or next month.

blumj
08-14-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm been thinking the same thing all day. I refuse to believe that this trade actually happened because I was guaranteed by the RedsZone Optimist Choir that it was a lead-pipe cinch that the Reds were going to pick up Gonzo's option.





Maybe they will. Just because Phiillips isn't playing SS tonight doesn't mean he can't play there tomorrow, or next week, or next month.

Even if they are contemplating it, it would not be a terrible idea to wait for the 7th inning of a blowout to try it the 1st time.

M2
08-14-2009, 04:55 PM
Maybe they will. Just because Phiillips isn't playing SS tonight doesn't mean he can't play there tomorrow, or next week, or next month.

Tomorrow or next week would be fine (though next week would be the outer limit of when he ought to start). Next month would be ... Redsesque.

Kc61
08-14-2009, 04:55 PM
The Reds may be out of the running this year, but they aren't going to mess around with the team so that it loses 95 games. They don't want to have a worse record than last year, they don't want to completely tank the season.

Fans say, who cares, but the Reds undoubtedly do care. They want to show a product that is professional. They want games like last night when Gomes excelled and the fans were excited.

They may be out of the pennant race, but they will not put Phillips at SS unless they feel he can perform well there. They won't do it just to take a flier on a new -- or old -- idea.

Highlifeman21
08-14-2009, 04:56 PM
So when do you do it; during ST when he plays 2-3 innings at a time against guys who aren't necessarily going all out? This isn't like moving Dunn to 1st or Kearns to 3rd. This is a position he's familiar with and played quite well in the past. He's also not going to have to make that pivot that he does at 2nd so the turns argument is a non-starter.

This isn't irrevocable. If he can't do the job at SS, you can always move him back to 2nd.

Let's not forget the WMP 3B experiment as well...

M2
08-14-2009, 05:00 PM
The Reds may be out of the running this year, but they aren't going to mess around with the team so that it loses 95 games. They don't want to have a worse record than last year, they don't want to completely tank the season.

Why not tank the season? They get a better draft slot if they do.

Plus, football season's almost upon us. Who's going to notice the Reds tanking?

BRM
08-14-2009, 05:02 PM
Why not tank the season? They get a better draft slot if they do.

Plus, football season's almost upon us. Who's going to notice the Reds tanking?

Not many are noticing it now.

BRM
08-14-2009, 05:02 PM
And, for the record, it would be very Redsesque make no decision on this, try him at SS next spring and be in a complete bind come April.

I'd laugh if this weren't true.

Kc61
08-14-2009, 05:07 PM
Why not tank the season? They get a better draft slot if they do.

Plus, football season's almost upon us. Who's going to notice the Reds tanking?


The expected response.

The team cares, the FO cares, ownership cares. They want a more respectable record, maybe some good games or good performances, something to show for their efforts. That's the real world.

They won't tank the season. They won't take fliers on players who aren't ready to perform at a decent level. They will try to have a better record than last year.

That's what will happen.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 05:10 PM
Will it take 6 weeks of innings at SS to make a serious determination either way--yea or nay? Isn't this a question that can be answered in practice, frankly?

That's why I say the determination's likely already been made--in the same way the determination of Schumaker at 2nd was made--quickly. There's no Three Mile Island urgency to this.

It's not exactly a concern of the caliber of, say, starters 1-3 in 2010.

Ltlabner
08-14-2009, 05:12 PM
The expected response.

The team cares, the FO cares, ownership cares. They want a more respectable record, maybe some good games or good performances, something to show for their efforts. That's the real world.

They won't tank the season. They won't take fliers on players who aren't ready to perform at a decent level. They will try to have a better record than last year.

That's what will happen.

The problem is nobody cares.

It's that simple. The fans don't give a damn about this team. Ending up 8 games out instead of 10 isn't going to make a single bit of difference in attendance.

It's that sort of thinking (we can't do this because the fans will think we don't care) that adds to the misery.

Doing the homework now to make better decisions come the off-season and ultimately have a better team come 2010 is what a smart franchise would do. What the Reds will do? Well....we'll see.

M2
08-14-2009, 05:13 PM
The expected response.

The team cares, the FO cares, ownership cares. They want a more respectable record, maybe some good games or good performances, something to show for their efforts. That's the real world.

They won't tank the season. They won't take fliers on players who aren't ready to perform at a decent level. They will try to have a better record than last year.

That's what will happen.

Hooray Pyrrhic victories. The sad thing is that a worse record than last season is all but guaranteed at this point. This team is playing sub-.500 ball from here on out. You may rely on that.

If they truly care, then getting the ducks in line for next year and subsequent seasons should be the priority.

Highlifeman21
08-14-2009, 05:14 PM
The problem is nobody cares.

It's that simple. The fans don't give a damn about this team. Ending up 8 games out instead of 10 isn't going to make a single bit of difference in attendance.

It's that sort of thinking (we can't do this because the fans will think we don't care) that adds to the misery.

Doing the homework now to make better decisions come the off-season and ultimately have a better team come 2010 is what a smart franchise would do. What the Reds will do? Well....we'll see.

We're still going to have plenty of questions marks going into ST, and won't answer many of those by Opening Day.

... aka, more of the same...

M2
08-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Will it take 6 weeks of innings at SS to make a serious determination either way--yea or nay? Isn't this a question that can be answered in practice, frankly?

Only a terminally incurious club would take that approach.

edabbs44
08-14-2009, 05:15 PM
I wonder what the reaction would be if Phillips gets inserted at SS, then tries to make a huge throw from the hole and comes up with a bum elbow. I am sure some would reference the fact that he isn't used to the throw from SS and not easing him in was a huge error on Walt/Dusty's part.

These guys are moving in the right direction...just because Phillips isn't there tonight doesn't mean this team has no clue. They had a clue enough to punt Gonzo.

M2
08-14-2009, 05:18 PM
They had a clue enough to punt Gonzo.

After playing him for most of the season. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for their foresight abilities.

Strikes Out Looking
08-14-2009, 05:19 PM
These guys are moving in the right direction...just because Phillips isn't there tonight doesn't mean this team has no clue. They had a clue enough to punt Gonzo.

Not to get myself in any trouble and hijack the thread, but if the team had a clue, the CF from here on out would be named Chris or Drew, not he who should not be named who is playing tonight.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 05:19 PM
Only a terminally incurious club would take that approach.

Like the Cardinals with Shumaker? They're not asking Phillips to learn string theory.

edabbs44
08-14-2009, 05:20 PM
After playing him for most of the season. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for their foresight abilities.

It's an improvement over giving him a 3 year deal, I guess.

M2
08-14-2009, 05:24 PM
Like the Cardinals with Shumaker? They're not asking Phillips to learn string theory.

The Cardinals shifted a guy who didn't have a starting gig after they weren't able to find a suitable 2B. If Schumaker didn't pan out he was headed back to being the club's 4th OF.

If the Reds shift Phillips, install a new 2B and Phillips doesn't pan out they're left with two guys for one position and a hole at the other. That's completely Redsesque. It's almost like scheduled constipation.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 05:29 PM
The expected response.

The team cares, the FO cares, ownership cares. They want a more respectable record, maybe some good games or good performances, something to show for their efforts. That's the real world.

They won't tank the season. They won't take fliers on players who aren't ready to perform at a decent level. They will try to have a better record than last year.

That's what will happen.

Something does not seem to be congruent with your comment as worded.

I am not sure about your arguments on the Reds being concerned about tanking a season by playing a different player at short.
I donít think that Baker has been overly concerned about who plays short.

All these guys have already played shortstop this year.
Adam Rosales
Drew Sutton
J. Hairston Jr.
Paul Janish
Alex Gonzalez

All these guys played short last year.
Juan Castro
J. Cabrera
Danny Richar
J. Keppinger
Paul Janish
J. Hairston Jr.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2009, 05:29 PM
The Cardinals shifted a guy who didn't have a starting gig after they weren't able to find a suitable 2B. If Schumaker didn't pan out he was headed back to being the club's 4th OF.

If the Reds shift Phillips, install a new 2B and Phillips doesn't pan out they're left with two guys for one position and a hole at the other. That's completely Redsesque. It's almost like scheduled constipation.

But your argument's predicated on the belief that they'll need 6 weeks to make this determination. I think it's highly likely that the determination's already been made and they'll either sign someone in the offseason or let him play there next season and sign a 2nd baseman in the offseason.

In short I'm not buying the argument that Jocketty's turned into DanO.

HokieRed
08-14-2009, 05:36 PM
Something does not seem to be congruent with your comment as worded.

I am not sure about your arguments on the Reds being concerned about tanking a season by playing a different player at short.
I donít think that Baker has been overly concerned about who plays short.

All these guys have already played shortstop this year.
Adam Rosales
Drew Sutton
J. Hairston Jr.
Paul Janish
Alex Gonzalez

All these guys played short last year.
Juan Castro
J. Cabrera
Danny Richar
J. Keppinger
Paul Janish
J. Hairston Jr.

I think that lack of concern may be changing, as perhaps the politics of the org. are. Who has the longer contract, Dusty or Walt?

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 05:37 PM
Given his bat, Janish needs to be one of the best defensive middle infielders on the planet in order to justify keeping a utility role.

You're probably right.

But I'm not sure his bat is as bad as it has been so far. He's never had a chance to play everyday. I think his bat could be around a .700 OPS, which means he would have to be one of the best defensive SS in the game to justify it.

I'd still like to see what he can do. Back up players have surprised in the past.

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 05:41 PM
Something does not seem to be congruent with your comment as worded.

I am not sure about your arguments on the Reds being concerned about tanking a season by playing a different player at short.
I donít think that Baker has been overly concerned about who plays short.

All these guys have already played shortstop this year.
Adam Rosales
Drew Sutton
J. Hairston Jr.
Paul Janish
Alex Gonzalez

All these guys played short last year.
Juan Castro
J. Cabrera
Danny Richar
J. Keppinger
Paul Janish
J. Hairston Jr.

Injuries have been the #1 reason why so many players have played SS these past two years. I am pretty sure Baker would have played Gonzo there nearly everyday if he was healthy these past two years.

RANDY IN INDY
08-14-2009, 05:42 PM
I wonder what Redszone would be like if the Reds ever won?

blumj
08-14-2009, 05:45 PM
I wonder what Redszone would be like if the Reds ever won?
The same.

The Baumer
08-14-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm going to miss Gonzo and his horribly offensive nickname Seabass.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 05:50 PM
I think that lack of concern may be changing, as perhaps the politics of the org. are. Who has the longer contract, Dusty or Walt?

I don't know with "Big Bob" looking over their shoulders. Sometimes I wonder if Bob isn't emailing in the lineups, orders from headquarters. :) Just kidding, I think.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 05:55 PM
Injuries have been the #1 reason why so many players have played SS these past two years. I am pretty sure Baker would have played Gonzo there nearly everyday if he was healthy these past two years.

Considering that Gonzalez was the only qualified major league shortstop in the entire group, that would make sense, the others in the group do not following KC's assertion on taking flyers on players, because they basically did take flyers on each of those and seemed to find out that each of them were not the answer at SS, where one or two of them might have been an answer at 2nd.

VR
08-14-2009, 06:11 PM
GIDP over on Sundeck reporting Barker being called up. Good for him. Really really good. I love it when these career minor league guys get a call to the show.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 06:26 PM
I wonder what the reaction would be if Phillips gets inserted at SS, then tries to make a huge throw from the hole and comes up with a bum elbow. I am sure some would reference the fact that he isn't used to the throw from SS and not easing him in was a huge error on Walt/Dusty's part.

These guys are moving in the right direction...just because Phillips isn't there tonight doesn't mean this team has no clue. They had a clue enough to punt Gonzo.


We can "what if" all day. "What if" Brandon is playing 2nd and he is trying to make the turn on the DP but the runner going to 2nd upends him and busts up his knee? Maybe if Brandon were at SS that play, he wouldn't have been the 2B and would have not get his knee wrecked. "What if" Brandon's at 2nd and he ranges to his right to get a ball up the middle, then turns and since his momentum is carrying him in the other direction, he puts a little extra mustard on the throw and blows out his elbow?

indy_dave00
08-14-2009, 06:45 PM
Kevin Barker just what the Reds need a 34 year old left handed hitting 1st basemen. Aug. 19th will make the 10th Anniversity of Barker's major league debut as a Brewer. He last appeared in the majors in 2006 as a Blue Jay.

He's had 253 big league ab's hitting .245 with 6 homers and 33 rbi's.

edabbs44
08-14-2009, 06:48 PM
We can "what if" all day. "What if" Brandon is playing 2nd and he is trying to make the turn on the DP but the runner going to 2nd upends him and busts up his knee? Maybe if Brandon were at SS that play, he wouldn't have been the 2B and would have not get his knee wrecked. "What if" Brandon's at 2nd and he ranges to his right to get a ball up the middle, then turns and since his momentum is carrying him in the other direction, he puts a little extra mustard on the throw and blows out his elbow?

Kind of a different "what if".

Look, I'm not the kind to "what if" anything unless it is a total slam dunk. I'm not still blaming Harang's troubles on last year's SD relief appearance. And I am not saying that I would actually blame Walt/Baker if this did happen. But I guarantee that someone would bring it up and how stupid it was to switch positions at the end of the year because of the difference in throwing if it did happen.

mth123
08-14-2009, 06:52 PM
Kevin Barker just what the Reds need a 34 year old left handed hitting 1st basemen. Aug. 19th will make the 10th Anniversity of Barker's major league debut as a Brewer. He last appeared in the majors in 2006 as a Blue Jay.

He's had 253 big league ab's hitting .245 with 6 homers and 33 rbi's.

Not to start a whole different position change scenario, but I wonder if Votto sees some time in LF. Barker at 1B and Votto in Lf against RHP. Gomes in LF against lefties with Votto back to 1B. Alonso is still coming eventually.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2009, 06:54 PM
We can "what if" all day. "What if" Brandon is playing 2nd and he is trying to make the turn on the DP but the runner going to 2nd upends him and busts up his knee? Maybe if Brandon were at SS that play, he wouldn't have been the 2B and would have not get his knee wrecked. "What if" Brandon's at 2nd and he ranges to his right to get a ball up the middle, then turns and since his momentum is carrying him in the other direction, he puts a little extra mustard on the throw and blows out his elbow?

Isn't it easier to find adequate second basemen than it is shorstops? I would like to see Phillips get a solid tryout at short for different reasons.

Big Klu
08-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Why not tank the season? They get a better draft slot if they do.

Plus, football season's almost upon us. Who's going to notice the Reds tanking?

Then why not just close up shop and forfeit the remainder of the season? Don't take the chance that someone else gets hurt. Just forfeit the rest of the schedule and get the ducks lined up for next year.

Chip R
08-14-2009, 07:05 PM
But I guarantee that someone would bring it up and how stupid it was to switch positions at the end of the year because of the difference in throwing if it did happen.

So what? Since when should the Reds' front office base their decisions on the whims and caprices of RedsZone? Ten posters have ten different opinions about any given subject. We're all hypocrites here. Someone preaches patience at the plate and if the next guy hits a 1st pitch HR, the same guy's gonna sing that player's praises. No matter what happens if something goes wrong, there's going to be a goat.

jojo
08-14-2009, 07:28 PM
I wonder what Redszone would be like if the Reds ever won?

I'm willing to find out.

fearofpopvol1
08-14-2009, 08:31 PM
Then why not just close up shop and forfeit the remainder of the season? Don't take the chance that someone else gets hurt. Just forfeit the rest of the schedule and get the ducks lined up for next year.

Too much money to be lost in concessions/ticket sales.

Plus, Baker would never stand for that. He's trying to play for an extension.

Highlifeman21
08-14-2009, 08:38 PM
Not to get myself in any trouble and hijack the thread, but if the team had a clue, the CF from here on out would be named Chris or Drew, not he who should not be named who is playing tonight.

For that very reason, I'm confident the Reds have no clue.

I doubt the Reds have an idea about SS going forward, they just knew that they needed to save money, moved Gonzo for a warm body, and now they don't have to trouble themselves into picking up his 2010 option (which I firmly believe they would have had Gonzo remained a Red).

If the Reds had a clue, he who shall not be named wouldn't get anymore extended playing time in CF, and when he did get that infrequent playing time, he'd bat 8th.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd shut down Cueto for the year.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd get Alonso some reps in LF in the minors to see if he can make that transition before getting to the show.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd bring up Heisey or Stubbs to get some reps, b/c you're gonna tell me either one of them couldn't put up the same numbers as Nix or he who shall not be named?

Bottomline, the Reds don't have a clue.

redsmetz
08-14-2009, 09:28 PM
For that very reason, I'm confident the Reds have no clue.

I doubt the Reds have an idea about SS going forward, they just knew that they needed to save money, moved Gonzo for a warm body, and now they don't have to trouble themselves into picking up his 2010 option (which I firmly believe they would have had Gonzo remained a Red).

If the Reds had a clue, he who shall not be named wouldn't get anymore extended playing time in CF, and when he did get that infrequent playing time, he'd bat 8th.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd shut down Cueto for the year.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd get Alonso some reps in LF in the minors to see if he can make that transition before getting to the show.

If the Reds had a clue, they'd bring up Heisey or Stubbs to get some reps, b/c you're gonna tell me either one of them couldn't put up the same numbers as Nix or he who shall not be named?

Bottomline, the Reds don't have a clue.

It's absolutely absurd to believe that they would have picked up Gonzalez's contract. It really grows tiresome all the ragging on this team, but swing away. But it really is absurd to think AG would have been back. Sheesh.

edabbs44
08-14-2009, 09:32 PM
If the Reds had a clue, they'd bring up Heisey or Stubbs to get some reps, b/c you're gonna tell me either one of them couldn't put up the same numbers as Nix or he who shall not be named?

I would like to see either (or both) of those guys up, but not for the reason you mention. Nix has a .748 OPS and I could easily see both of those guys putting up numbers well below that.

That should be painfully obvious for all of us, since we have seen the former #1 prospect in baseball struggle like he has this year.

corkedbat
08-14-2009, 09:39 PM
Barker's call-up must mean the long-awaited conversion of Votto to SS has begun.

M2
08-14-2009, 10:12 PM
I think it's highly likely that the determination's already been made and they'll either sign someone in the offseason or let him play there next season and sign a 2nd baseman in the offseason.

I'm sure they think they know something.

If it's just keeping him at 2B then no big deal, but if they try to shift him to SS over the offseason, squandering the present chance to take a long look at him at SS in 2009, then that's all kinds of stupid.

We've got people here saying he can make the switch in his sleep and others saying he's never going to take to it. Well, everybody's got backsides, elbows and opinions. The folks employed by the Reds aren't terribly different in that regard.

All I'm saying is that IF the Reds think Phillips can make the transition to SS, then they're daft if they don't test that hypothesis right now.

Highlifeman21
08-14-2009, 10:27 PM
It's absolutely absurd to believe that they would have picked up Gonzalez's contract. It really grows tiresome all the ragging on this team, but swing away. But it really is absurd to think AG would have been back. Sheesh.

Gonzalez had a solid 2007, and they've played him far too much in 2009 given his craptastic numbers for me to think anything but they would have picked up his option. You don't give a guy like Gonzalez as many PAs as they did unless you think he's a post 2009 solution @ SS.

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 10:32 PM
Gonzalez had a solid 2007, and they've played him far too much in 2009 given his craptastic numbers for me to think anything but they would have picked up his option. You don't give a guy like Gonzalez as many PAs as they did unless you think he's a post 2009 solution @ SS.

Maybe it was because he was providing solid defense, there was hope, based on his career numbers, that he could regain his stroke, and there really weren't any other options barring a trade?

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 10:34 PM
Just reporting here, but Hal said on WLW in the second inning chat that Dusty had said that Janish was going to get the majority of starts at SS the rest of the season.

IslandRed
08-14-2009, 10:40 PM
Gonzalez had a solid 2007, and they've played him far too much in 2009 given his craptastic numbers for me to think anything but they would have picked up his option. You don't give a guy like Gonzalez as many PAs as they did unless you think he's a post 2009 solution @ SS.

Totally disagree. It's one thing to talk yourself into running him out there when you have to pay him anyway and all the other shortstops stink too. Paying him $6 million when you don't have to is another matter entirely.

Look, I don't like watching HWSNBN running around center field any more than anyone else, but I'm not a fan of the logic that says to take the dumbest move a guy's ever made and assume every move in the future will be that dumb.

Stormy
08-14-2009, 10:45 PM
Something does not seem to be congruent with your comment as worded.

I am not sure about your arguments on the Reds being concerned about tanking a season by playing a different player at short.
I donít think that Baker has been overly concerned about who plays short.

All these guys have already played shortstop this year.
Adam Rosales
Drew Sutton
J. Hairston Jr.
Paul Janish
Alex Gonzalez

All these guys played short last year.
Juan Castro
J. Cabrera
Danny Richar
J. Keppinger
Paul Janish
J. Hairston Jr.

Bingo! Beautiful illustration, SF.

TheNext44
08-14-2009, 10:57 PM
Considering that Gonzalez was the only qualified major league shortstop in the entire group, that would make sense, the others in the group do not following KC's assertion on taking flyers on players, because they basically did take flyers on each of those and seemed to find out that each of them were not the answer at SS, where one or two of them might have been an answer at 2nd.

But they didn't take a flyer on these guys to see if they could be the long term solution at SS, they played them because they didn't have any other choices. All along, the plan was for Gonzo to play SS for the Reds in 08 and 09.

When he got hurt in 08, the went with Kepp, until he got hurt and they went with Hairston, until he got hurt and the went with Cabrera, until he got hurt and they went back to Keppinger who was healthy again.

They never really went with Janish to see what he could do, who would be the one guy who possibly could be the SS of the future. Instead they went with guys who they knew were not MLB starting SS's, but fill ins while the one true SS they had was injured.

This year they did the same with Hairston. If they really wanted to take a flyer on anyone, it would be Janish, but they never did.

As for Phillips, it made no sense to shift him to SS while Gonzo was still under contract. Now that he is gone, it looks like they are at least thinking about it.

I think that they will play Janish most of the way, and slip a few starts to Phillips just to see if he is even worth trying to change to SS in the off season. But that is just a guess.

Team Clark
08-14-2009, 11:05 PM
I wonder what Redszone would be like if the Reds ever won?

Another site called "Happy Zone" would have to be created. Redszone couldn't tolerate winning. Too used to losing and lineup frustration. :)

blumj
08-15-2009, 12:30 AM
Another site called "Happy Zone" would have to be created. Redszone couldn't tolerate winning. Too used to losing and lineup frustration. :)
I've never seen a happy fan board, even the Rays board posters complained all last year about Maddon.

traderumor
08-15-2009, 02:07 AM
I had a feeling Gonzo was traded when I saw Janish playing SS. My father in law and I were talking on the way to the game that this time of year things can happen pretty fast and I told him that I wouldn't be surprised to see Gonzales, Cordero, Harang or Arroyo in a deal right now. Turns out it was Gonzo.

WebScorpion
08-15-2009, 02:20 AM
Another site called "Happy Zone" would have to be created. Redszone couldn't tolerate winning. Too used to losing and lineup frustration. :)
Yea, and the preferred search engine will be the new one from Apple, 'Bong'! :thumbup:

Ron Madden
08-15-2009, 06:48 AM
It's a shame to say this but I'm glad he's gone.

I rooted for Gonzo whenever he was in the line up but I hated the signing to begin with.