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View Full Version : If Reds are to contend in 2010, they need Arroyo and Harang



redlegs2370
08-15-2009, 01:16 PM
Much has been said about getting rid of contracts owed to Arroyo and Harang so the Reds can be players in the FA market next season.

I don't think the Reds can win next season if they get rid of both and if they are going to keep one I would say Arroyo would be my choice. Where else are you going to find two pitchers that will pitch as many innings as these two have the past 4 seasons.

Arroyo has pitched 153 innings this season and 200 innings in 2008, 210 innings in 2007 and 240 innings in 2006. To me if you think you can contend you need guys who can pitch a lot of innings and save the bullpen towards the end of the season. Also you want your pitchers pitching well in the second half, Arroyo's era post all-star break was 3.47 in 2008, 3.55 in 2007, and 3.50 in 2006.

Harang hasn't been quite as good post all-star break but take away last season (2008) 4.84 era post all-star and 2007 was an era of 3.81 and in 2006 his post all-star era was 3.83. Harang also pitched 180 innings in 2008, 231 innings in 2007, and 233 innings in 2006.

If the Reds vision is to build with younger players and shoot for 2012 and beyond then I could understand trading them both but, in my honest opinion, if they have any desire to compete in 2010 they need to keep both.

Orodle
08-15-2009, 01:44 PM
I concur

Blood Red Path
08-15-2009, 01:59 PM
My only argument would be that you can make the pitching staff better and deeper if you can unload one of these guys. In this market they could essentially get two comparably talented pitchers who would keep them in games and eat innings for the amount of money they are paying Harang alone.

GIDP
08-15-2009, 02:01 PM
They need to unload one of them for purely cash reasons so they can actually improve the team in places we need it as well.

Captain Hook
08-15-2009, 02:03 PM
If we do need them to contend then they should be expected to preform as pitchers on contending teams do.Is it possible they both can do this?Maybe they can.There's evidence showing that they are capable.Aaron and Bronson must become more consistent and not have stretches of 4 and 5 starts where they are terrible.

I agree that they are needed to contend but they both must be better then they have shown the last few years.

redlegs2370
08-15-2009, 02:23 PM
They need to unload one of them for purely cash reasons so they can actually improve the team in places we need it as well.

I agree that the team needs to improve in other places. I think it might make more sense to trade Harang because he is making more money and I think Arroyo has been more consistent over the past few years. On the flip side, it appears, on the outside, that Harang brings great leadership which guys like Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez need.

FlyerFanatic
08-15-2009, 02:26 PM
if we keep both harang and arroyo, we wont be signing anyone in the off season...at least not anyone of importance, more of the same willy taveras's of the MLB. we need to unload at least one of them. this team needs outfielders and a SS. nix, gomes, and taveras arent everyday outfielders, balentine looks like he might have been a good pickup, still this team needs improvements all over.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-15-2009, 04:32 PM
They need to unload one of them for purely cash reasons so they can actually improve the team in places we need it as well.

You're putting far too much hope in the decision making of this franchise to sign someone worth a crap, or someone worth a crap willing to even sign here. This is the franchise that signed Willy T.

If we can get someone of worth in a trade I would take it, but I don't think it should be simply a salary dump. Arroyo's gotten his crap together, like he almost always does on cue after the All Star break. Maybe it takes half a year for his Korean Ginseng or something to kick in for whatever reason. Harang has been looking better too. And with Volquez out, and we've seen Bailey, Cueto, and Owings all be either taken out of games or not playing recently it's become a much more shaky situation than it was just a few months ago.

GIDP
08-15-2009, 04:36 PM
I dont trust them at all to spend the money wisely.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-15-2009, 04:45 PM
I just know if we give up Arroyo and/or Harang, Kip Wells WILL be the #5 starter next year. Either him, or someone who reminds of a few years ago. Take your pick, Jimmy Haynes, Danny Graves, Paul Wilson, etc.

jmac
08-15-2009, 05:35 PM
I just know if we give up Arroyo and/or Harang, Kip Wells WILL be the #5 starter next year. Either him, or someone who reminds of a few years ago. Take your pick, Jimmy Haynes, Danny Graves, Paul Wilson, etc.

With Volquez out most of year, I agree. As far as your names from the past, at least now, a "haynes/wilson" would be our #5. Then, they were our #1 ! :eek:

BLEEDS
08-15-2009, 06:23 PM
Harang seems to be cursed here, he gets almost NO run support, and he gets taken out deep by guys with career HR"s in the single digits, and/or #7 and #8 hitters.

I would trade him for the right package, but his WHIP has gone down drastically the last two seasons (including this one) and he doesn't look like the same guy. Other scouts surely have noticed.
However, a change of scenery, and a pitcher friendly park, might do him wonders.

Arroyo I really like. Sure he has the occasionally crappy 2 inning game, but he also has the occasional CG 2 hitter.
For about league average numbers - WHIP and ERA of ~1.3/1.4 and~4.5, you get 200+ innings and he's NEVER hurt.
I say you'd be hard pressed to find that or better for the same $11M out there these days. Maybe, but it's surely a risk. I take the bird in the hand.

Either of these guys could be gone for the right deal, but IMO it would have to be something really big for Walt to consider it, especially in light of the Volquez surgery. We are suddenly VERY thin at SP again.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

LouisvilleCARDS
08-15-2009, 09:08 PM
Tonight showing why we needs them. Cueto is imploding this second half, Bailey has been bad almost his entire MLB career, Volquez out for a year, and Owings hurt but just average when he's healthy anyway.

They're both being paid too much based on performance, but thats the Reds own stupid fault, and the return isn't going to be something thats going to replace their innings though either.

Hondo
08-15-2009, 09:09 PM
Harang and Arroyo are good pitchers... In St.Louis they would b 20 Game winners with a Good Pitching Coach...

With Dick Pole, they will be what they have been since Dusty took over...

redlegs2370
08-15-2009, 11:17 PM
Harang and Arroyo are good pitchers... In St.Louis they would b 20 Game winners with a Good Pitching Coach...

With Dick Pole, they will be what they have been since Dusty took over...

This is true. I would hate to see the Reds unload Arroyo and Harang and not get chance with another pitching coach. With the right fit I think Arroyo and Harang could anchor a contending rotation next year. I don't think you can go into 2010 counting on Cueto and Bailey anchoring the rotation.

Hondo
08-16-2009, 12:59 AM
This is true. I would hate to see the Reds unload Arroyo and Harang and not get chance with another pitching coach. With the right fit I think Arroyo and Harang could anchor a contending rotation next year. I don't think you can go into 2010 counting on Cueto and Bailey anchoring the rotation.

Harang and Cueto's demise has to be from Dick Pole and Dustys missuse... Not even too mention Tommy John... aka Voltron...

Jack Burton
08-16-2009, 10:57 AM
Arroyo got shredded by Mike Lupica today on the sports reporters, anyone catch that?

Old NDN
08-16-2009, 11:32 AM
A better offense that puts some runs on the board would do wonders for the pitching. Their margin of error is very slim to none.