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Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 06:16 PM
Someone in the game thread that enjoyed watching this newer player, Balentien, asked if he was healthy. Here is what came out recently.

John Fay: Baker on Balentien

Wladimir Balentien is healthy. He hasn't started the last three games because Dusty Baker likes a match-up with another player better. In tonight's case, it's Laynce Nix.

I think that in microcosm is the Reds problem: They never completely go with a rebuilding mode. Nothing against Nix but I don't think he's a long-term solution. I don't know that Balentien is either. But he looked as good at the plate in the San Francisco series as anyone not named Joey Votto. Why not give him a long trial?

“He’s playing tomorrow,” Dusty Baker said. “You can’t play everybody. He was supposed to play yesterday, then (Jonny) Gomes) hit three home runs (Thursday). Nix has been swinging good and guys we’re facing are a lot better against right-handers than left-handers, especially this guy today. That kind of answers that. I go with the matchups who I think can hit certain guys and their greatest chance to succeed against that particular guy.”

Left-handers are hitting .408 against tonight’s starter J.D. Martin. Right-handers are hitting .200.

Gomes wasn’t in the lineup because Martin throws a lot of breaking stuff.

“That’s not conducive to Jonny’s swing,” Baker said. “Part of my job is try to match up guys best you can, except for guys like Brandon (Phillips) and (Joey) Votto.”

Nix is hitting .412 with five RBI over his last six games.

“I’ve got to match guys up to guys who fit their swings,” Baker said. “I haven’t seen Balentien play center field. His speed is not indicative of playing center field.

“Plus I didn’t have Dickerson to match up at the time.”

Baker explained all this to Balentien.

“I talked to him,” Baker said. “You don’t have to tell anyone. When you’re not playing you wonder why, and you’d like to know why.”

sonny
08-15-2009, 06:21 PM
Wow, Dusty's smart. Our record is indicitave of that.

Tom Servo
08-15-2009, 06:30 PM
1. Nix has not been hitting well, and his future is as a 4th or 5th OF at best.
2. Balentien is young and needs the at-bats. His future could potentially be in our starting line-up.
3. You could free up a slot in the outfield by not playing Willy Taveras, who doesn't hit or field well.

WMR
08-15-2009, 06:31 PM
:lol:

Dusty's explanations are the best. Truly.

One of my least favorite baseball minds.

pahster
08-15-2009, 06:31 PM
3. You could free up a slot in the outfield by not playing Willy Taveras, who doesn't hit or field well.

Gotta play through the slump, dude. :cool:

Brutus
08-15-2009, 06:49 PM
I prefer to let managers manage. However, this is where Jocketty needs to step in and demand that Balentien plays. This is it for him. The Reds have only six more weeks to audition him, beyond some time in spring training. Then they have to make a decision. So there's no excuses for why he's not in the lineup every day. They can't find out what they have if they aren't running him out there to show it.

MikeS21
08-15-2009, 07:01 PM
The thing I wonder is if Nix and/or Gomes could be flipped for a prospect, and go ahead and give Balentien some playing time.

Have they cleared waviers?

mth123
08-15-2009, 07:05 PM
1. Nix has not been hitting well, and his future is as a 4th or 5th OF at best.
2. Balentien is young and needs the at-bats. His future could potentially be in our starting line-up.
3. You could free up a slot in the outfield by not playing Willy Taveras, who doesn't hit or field well.

Exactly. Dickerson in CF, Wlad in RF, Willy sold to the Mexican league for a dead worm from a tequila bottle.

Of course the Reds would need to throw in somethng else.

TheNext44
08-15-2009, 07:10 PM
It's 4 games, not exactly proof that the Reds are not committed to playing him and seeing what he can do.

There are 47 games left. I would like to see him out there for all of them, but if he plays in 30 of them, the Reds will have a fine idea of what he can do. He'll probably play in more than that.

Just another case of Fay trying to prove that he is not a "company man" by stirring things up.

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Wladimir Balentien
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .316 .381 .368 .749
vs. Left .185 .260 .338 .598
vs. Right .261 .321 .395 .716

Laynce Nix
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .375 .412 .563 .975
vs. Left .200 .259 .320 .579
vs. Right .249 .304 .467 .771

Jonny Gomes
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .350 .381 .850 1.231
vs. Left .323 .391 .581 .972
vs. Right .243 .333 .561 .894

Willy Taveras
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .227 .261 .273 .534
vs. Left .220 .248 .260 .508
vs. Right .246 .285 .295 .580

Chris Dickerson
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .385 .467 .538 1.005
vs. Left .257 .341 .314 .655
vs. Right .268 .365 .379 .744

Phillips
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .185 .233 .370 .603
vs. Left .297 .354 .564 .918
vs. Right .252 .314 .416 .730

Joey Votto
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days .200 .310 .200 .510
vs. Left .307 .364 .525 .889
vs. Right .318 .413 .557 .970


*Left vs Right splits are for the 2009 season

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Just another case of Fay trying to prove that he is not a "company man" by stirring things up.

I agree that Fay did not have much of a topic, if he did, looking at the stats or small samples, he probably went the wrong direction. I just don't think that Mr. Jocketty gave Mr. Baker much to work with, I just don't see a significant difference in his choices.

flyer85
08-15-2009, 07:20 PM
Dusty has no interest in rebuilding ... he is only the right manager(if ever) for a vaeteran plug-n-play lineup. For a young team he is worthless.

dougdirt
08-15-2009, 07:27 PM
I agree that Fay did not have much of a topic, if he did, looking at the stats or small samples, he probably went the wrong direction. I just don't think that Mr. Jocketty gave Mr. Baker much to work with, I just don't see a significant difference in his choices.

You don't see the significant difference between playing a guy who will be here next year that you aren't sure about and playing a guy who won't be here next year?

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 07:31 PM
You don't see the significant difference between playing a guy who will be here next year that you aren't sure about and playing a guy who won't be here next year?

Oh yes, if that is Fays point. I am not sure that I perceived or interpreted Fay correctly in after thought. I don't see anything really wrong with Mr. Bakers comments in the report by or according to the stats. Not that I am any expert on stats or small samples.

Of course the guys that could be here next year should get the majority of the auditioning time left between now and spring training in my opinion. It could help with decision making during the offseason. The hole that I saw is in CF, but that has been covered.

11larkin11
08-15-2009, 07:33 PM
OF should be Gomes-Dickerson-Balentien for the rest of the season unless Bruce comes back or Stubbs/Heisey are up. End of discussion.

Kc61
08-15-2009, 07:35 PM
Blaming Dusty for not playing young players is ridiculous.

Dusty has given more playing time to young players and pitchers than any Reds manager I can remember. He left Jay Bruce out in right field despite a .207 average and poor OBP. He has given huge rope to young starters and relievers. The accusation against him is unfounded.

The Reds do not want to lose 90-95 games. You guys may not care but I assure you that the owner of the team cares and the GM cares. If Nix and Gomes are hitting during a stretch they will play.

There is a month and a half left in the season, a lot of games. Young prospects will get plenty of opportunities.

mth123
08-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Blaming Dusty for not playing young players is ridiculous.

Dusty has given more playing time to young players and pitchers than any Reds manager I can remember. He left Jay Bruce out in right field despite a .207 average and poor OBP. He has given huge rope to young starters and relievers. The accusation against him is unfounded.

The Reds do not want to lose 90-95 games. You guys may not care but I assure you that the owner of the team cares and the GM cares. If Nix and Gomes are hitting during a stretch they will play.

There is a month and a half left in the season, a lot of games. Young prospects will get plenty of opportunities.


Playing Willy prevents this how?

toledodan
08-15-2009, 07:38 PM
Exactly. Dickerson in CF, Wlad in RF, Willy sold to the Mexican league for a dead worm from a tequila bottle.

Of course the Reds would need to throw in somethng else.


can the bottle be broken?:D

CrackerJack
08-15-2009, 08:11 PM
Based on their record, Dusty is not doing very well with his "best matchups" wisdom.

But hey, the older guys are happy and get to play, so he doesn't have to deal with that or anything. Which is nice for Dusty.

corkedbat
08-15-2009, 09:58 PM
I see WillyT out there. Kinda wondering what he "matches up with"? The Nats chances of winning?

Raisor
08-15-2009, 10:41 PM
The Reds do not want to lose 90-95 games. You guys may not care but I assure you that the owner of the team cares and the GM cares. .

Yippie?

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 10:57 PM
Exactly. Dickerson in CF, Wlad in RF, Willy sold to the Mexican league for a dead worm from a tequila bottle.
Of course the Reds would need to throw in somethng else.

:all_cohol

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl: I just saw that above. I have to learn to read someday. :D

He will be back next year. I wonder if they will call up McDonald too in Sept. talk about killing the worm ;)

alloverjr
08-15-2009, 10:57 PM
The Reds do not want to lose 90-95 games. You guys may not care but I assure you that the owner of the team cares and the GM cares. If Nix and Gomes are hitting during a stretch they will play.

There is a month and a half left in the season, a lot of games. Young prospects will get plenty of opportunities.



As long as this organization is stuck in 2009 the correct moves for 2010 + aren't going to be made. Wlad may be Wily Mo part 2, but heck you traded an arm for the guy play him. I think most have seen enough of Nix/Gomes to know about what to expect going forward regardless of the last 7 games. Matchups? What really are you playing for right now? Pride? The mentals errors this team makes makes me wonder if many have any. I'm sure the GM doesn't need to get into lineup construction but I fail to see how Dusty's reasoning helps this club going forward.

And the Reds at this point should be silently euphoric if they lose 95 + games and grab a top draft selection. I hope they lose 100.

KronoRed
08-15-2009, 11:05 PM
Yippie?

Hooray indeed, losing 85 instead of 90 means something for about 20 minutes at the end of the season and then gets filed away under another 5th place finish.

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Yippie?

I think they project to win 69.822 games and lose 92.

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 11:08 PM
Hooray indeed, losing 85 instead of 90 means something for about 20 minutes at the end of the season and then gets filed away under another 5th place finish.

I think they ought to let their paying customers see what they want to see, some fresh faces that might give those paying customers some inspiration to watch them.

alloverjr
08-15-2009, 11:26 PM
ďI havenít seen Balentien play center field. His speed is not indicative of playing center field.




Apparently speed is the primary requisite for playing CF while the ability to actually catch the ball is not.

Although I would agree that Wlad does not look like he could play CF.

Spring~Fields
08-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Apparently speed is the primary requisite for playing CF while the ability to actually catch the ball is not.

Although I would agree that Wlad does not look like he could play CF.

I would not think that he would be an option for center field either. I think that Baker used that input as a misdirection for his comfort in communicating his theories.

Sutton is another one that we have not seen play much, of course he might not be a good fit for this club, but how do they really know? I think they need to find out what they have or don't have in the young man they traded for from Seattle and even Sutton for that matter. Last year we wondered about Rosales, and others. I think they know what Rosales, Tevaras, Gomes, and Nix brings.

They have limited money, they seem to suggest that they don't have the talent in the minors, and what they have projects to lose 92 games and the starting pitching, who knows from game to game. I don't see how they can turn this around.

The manager does have a bias for speed while denying the importance of on base percentage that speaks to that speeds ability to get on base. At least he has been reported to singing the praises of speed if we can believe the reporters.

Stormy
08-15-2009, 11:35 PM
It's 4 games, not exactly proof that the Reds are not committed to playing him and seeing what he can do.

There are 47 games left. I would like to see him out there for all of them, but if he plays in 30 of them, the Reds will have a fine idea of what he can do. He'll probably play in more than that.

Just another case of Fay trying to prove that he is not a "company man" by stirring things up.

Man, it must be tiring towing the company line for the inexcusable. Nix and Taveras mean less than zero to the future of this franchise, whereas Balentien might be a relevant piece of the puzzle. But, hey, let's allow the worst tactical manager in the history of the sport to shelve him for a week at a time, in favor of his lessors, in the name of an imaginary hot streak.

LoganBuck
08-15-2009, 11:50 PM
Man, it must be tiring towing the company line for the inexcusable. Nix and Taveras mean less than zero to the future of this franchise, whereas Balentien might be a relevant piece of the puzzle. But, hey, let's allow the worst tactical manager in the history of the sport to shelve him for a week at a time, in favor of his lessors, in the name of an imaginary hot streak.

Being a Reds fan is painful.

My seven year old son said to me tonight: Why is Chris batting leadoff? (He calls all the players by their first names)

I said, "Because he gets on base more than Willy Taveras"

He said "So is he playing center field tonight, because that is who leads off?"

I swear I have never told him about that. I started laughing so hard, maybe I should have been crying.

*BaseClogger*
08-16-2009, 12:59 AM
Being a Reds fan is painful.

My seven year old son said to me tonight: Why is Chris batting leadoff? (He calls all the players by their first names)

I said, "Because he gets on base more than Willy Taveras"

He said "So is he playing center field tonight, because that is who leads off?"

I swear I have never told him about that. I started laughing so hard, maybe I should have been crying.

:laugh:

Topcat
08-16-2009, 04:23 AM
put Wlad in CF rest of the season and make him prove he is not a CF'er. We lose nothing trying to find out.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 07:50 AM
Being a Reds fan is painful.

My seven year old son said to me tonight: Why is Chris batting leadoff? (He calls all the players by their first names)

I said, "Because he gets on base more than Willy Taveras"

He said "So is he playing center field tonight, because that is who leads off?"

I swear I have never told him about that. I started laughing so hard, maybe I should have been crying.

Crying does seem appropriate with these Reds and The Dusty.

Strikes Out Looking
08-16-2009, 08:25 AM
Crying does seem appropriate with these Reds and The Dusty.

I am growing to hate Dusty Baker and his coaching staff. Besides his ridiculous decisions on the lineup, in-game management and stupid comments to the press, this team is so fundementally bad with a lack of focus, that this team wouldn't win if it had the 75 Reds or 27 Yankees lineup. That 3 year contract Dusty has is biting the Reds in the rear right now.

Of course, Dusty and his apologists will argue that its the injuries that have done this to the Reds season. I don't buy that for one second.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 08:35 AM
I am growing to hate Dusty Baker and his coaching staff. Besides his ridiculous decisions on the lineup, in-game management and stupid comments to the press, this team is so fundementally bad with a lack of focus, that this team wouldn't win if it had the 75 Reds or 27 Yankees lineup. That 3 year contract Dusty has is biting the Reds in the rear right now.

Of course, Dusty and his apologists will argue that its the injuries that have done this to the Reds season. I don't buy that for one second.

A team like the Mets have a bit of a gripe in my book about injuries changing their season.

The Reds, not so much.

I'd hope that the Reds, and particularly The Dusty, would make the most of injuries to give other guys a chance to see what they got, or what they don't got.

Unfortunately, that's hasn't been the case. The only thing we've seen is that The Dusty ain't got a clue.

cincrazy
08-16-2009, 10:17 AM
Exactly. Dickerson in CF, Wlad in RF, Willy sold to the Mexican league for a dead worm from a tequila bottle.

Of course the Reds would need to throw in somethng else.

But Willy has SPEED man. It's all about the SPEED.

jojo
08-16-2009, 10:26 AM
put Wlad in CF rest of the season and make him prove he is not a CF'er. We lose nothing trying to find out.

Wlad isn't a CFer.

GAC
08-16-2009, 10:27 AM
put Wlad in CF rest of the season and make him prove he is not a CF'er. We lose nothing trying to find out.

But that goes against Baker's scheme of things. To him, it's not about finding out; but about being fair and getting everyone playing time.

GAC
08-16-2009, 10:28 AM
Wlad isn't a CFer.

And Taveras is? :p:

jojo
08-16-2009, 10:29 AM
And Taveras is? :p:

If those are the choices, I go with Willy. :cool:

Strikes Out Looking
08-16-2009, 12:18 PM
If those are the choices, I go with Willy. :cool:

But those aren't the choices.

SirFelixCat
08-16-2009, 12:44 PM
So today we get Balentin instead of Dickerson...cuz you know, WillyT's just gotta play!

fearofpopvol1
08-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Dusty is playing for his job and to win now...not this team's future. That has always been Dusty's MO. Don't expect it to change.

RedsManRick
08-16-2009, 01:42 PM
Dusty is playing for his job and to win now...not this team's future. That has always been Dusty's MO. Don't expect it to change.

Yep. And even if you want to be generous, Dusty makes nearly every decision as if it were the 7th game of the World Series -- he is not a big picture type of guy, to say the least.

Heath
08-16-2009, 09:28 PM
Maybe when the 40 man roster is expanded in September we can get Rick Sweet.

osuceltic
08-16-2009, 09:30 PM
Dusty is playing for his job and to win now...not this team's future. That has always been Dusty's MO. Don't expect it to change.

That's exactly what I want from my major league manager. We have this cool system called the minor leagues for player development.

cincrazy
08-16-2009, 09:37 PM
That's exactly what I want from my major league manager. We have this cool system called the minor leagues for player development.

But when the major league team is pretty much a minor league team disguising itself as a major league operation, I don't see any reason why guys who have no future with this club should be given opportunities over those that might. We know what we have in Nix. Which is all kinds of crappiness with occasional long balls and maybe a short hot streak. We don't know about Balentien yet.

OnBaseMachine
08-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Glad I'm not the only one wondering why in the world Balentien hasn't been playing. This guy has been one of our few hot hitters in the last week + and yet Dusty benches him. Amazing. He should be playing everyday so the Reds can see what they have in him.

osuceltic
08-16-2009, 09:54 PM
But when the major league team is pretty much a minor league team disguising itself as a major league operation, I don't see any reason why guys who have no future with this club should be given opportunities over those that might. We know what we have in Nix. Which is all kinds of crappiness with occasional long balls and maybe a short hot streak. We don't know about Balentien yet.

I think what "we" know about Balentien bears no resemblence whatsoever to what the Reds know about Balentien.

WMR
08-16-2009, 10:32 PM
I think what "we" know about Balentien bears no resemblence whatsoever to what the Reds know about Balentien.

:lol: I wonder what "they" know about Willy Taveras that "we" don't?

Certainly seems to bear no resemblance to what everyone else in baseball--the world?--knows.

In other words, the Reds have been making dumb personnel decisions for a long time now... not sure why you're convinced that they have any real clue what they're doing besides squandering ABs on players who are already clearly identified "assets."

KronoRed
08-16-2009, 11:02 PM
:lol: I wonder what "they" know about Willy Taveras that "we" don't?

Certainly seems to bear no resemblance to what everyone else in baseball--the world?--knows.


I bet it starts and ends with "He's a proven major leaguer"

Pfft.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 08:14 AM
It's 4 games, not exactly proof that the Reds are not committed to playing him and seeing what he can do.

There are 47 games left. I would like to see him out there for all of them, but if he plays in 30 of them, the Reds will have a fine idea of what he can do. He'll probably play in more than that.

Just another case of Fay trying to prove that he is not a "company man" by stirring things up.

I distinctly remember hearing that there was no way Willy T would continue to play if he wasn't producing.

I also remember people saying there was no way Dusty would continue to have a horrific combination of players batting in the one and two holes on a regular basis. It was just a "couple of games" anyway, what does it matter?

I don't think it's a safe assumption to say that Dusty will do what you're suggesting on any regular basis.

bucksfan2
08-17-2009, 09:25 AM
Yep. And even if you want to be generous, Dusty makes nearly every decision as if it were the 7th game of the World Series -- he is not a big picture type of guy, to say the least.

I think you are right, but I think most managers would manage the same way in this situation. Dusty has got to be feeling some pressure now. He is a well compensated manager, who for the 2nd season in a row has been at the helm of an under performing team. Not only his his team playing poorly, but his young players look like they are taking steps backward. He feels his job is on the line and the only way to become more safe is to win games.

IMO there is a disconnect between WJ and Dusty. Playing young players over the likes of Nix has to come from the top. Dusty, like most managers in his situation, is going to put the team on the field that he best feels will win the game (that is debatable as well). Walt needs to tell him to play the youngsters and not worry about the outcome.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 09:33 AM
I think you are right, but I think most managers would manage the same way in this situation. Dusty has got to be feeling some pressure now. He is a well compensated manager, who for the 2nd season in a row has been at the helm of an under performing team. Not only his his team playing poorly, but his young players look like they are taking steps backward. He feels his job is on the line and the only way to become more safe is to win games.

IMO there is a disconnect between WJ and Dusty. Playing young players over the likes of Nix has to come from the top. Dusty, like most managers in his situation, is going to put the team on the field that he best feels will win the game (that is debatable as well). Walt needs to tell him to play the youngsters and not worry about the outcome.

I don't think they are underperforming, they are undertalented at C, SS, 3B until Rolen gets back, LF, CF, RF, have no bench. The only positive right now is a handful of good arms in the pen. At one point the rotation was performing, but they have become injured, shell shocked or mean-regressed, but the undertalent and lack of depth showed up soon enough. Just a whole lot of dreck still in the organization, with more dreck to be signed in the offseason, and more dreck to be drafted next summer.

nate
08-17-2009, 10:25 AM
I think you are right, but I think most managers would manage the same way in this situation. Dusty has got to be feeling some pressure now. He is a well compensated manager, who for the 2nd season in a row has been at the helm of an under performing team. Not only his his team playing poorly, but his young players look like they are taking steps backward. He feels his job is on the line and the only way to become more safe is to win games.

IMO there is a disconnect between WJ and Dusty. Playing young players over the likes of Nix has to come from the top. Dusty, like most managers in his situation, is going to put the team on the field that he best feels will win the game (that is debatable as well). Walt needs to tell him to play the youngsters and not worry about the outcome.

I don't see any underperformance in this team.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 10:58 AM
I don't see any underperformance in this team.the lack of talent seems to apply to the entire organization.

nate
08-17-2009, 11:04 AM
the lack of talent seems to apply to the entire organization.

Nowhere moreso than the player development and scouting departments.

fearofpopvol1
08-17-2009, 11:18 AM
That's exactly what I want from my major league manager. We have this cool system called the minor leagues for player development.

it's a great recipe for continued losing...if that's your thing. plan for now, not the future!

Benihana
08-17-2009, 02:56 PM
That's exactly what I want from my major league manager. We have this cool system called the minor leagues for player development.

Disagree completely. Wlad has nothing left to prove in the minors. Now is the time to figure out whether he's a major league starter or a AAAA player.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2009, 11:24 AM
I don't get it. Balentien went 2-for-3 with a home run last night, and doubled and walked the game before that, but despite that he's on the bench today in favor of Darnell McDonald. Can someone explain why that makes any sense at all? Balentien may have a future here, McDonald doesn't (or at least he shouldn't). Why not give Balentien as many atbats as possible instead of wasting them on a guy like McDonald?

flyer85
09-02-2009, 11:26 AM
I don't get it. Balentien went 2-for-3 with a home run last night, and doubled and walked the game before that, but despite that he's on the bench today in favor of Darnell McDonald. Can someone explain why that makes any sense at all? Balentien may have a future here, McDonald doesn't (or at least he shouldn't). Why not give Balentien as many atbats as possible instead of wasting them on a guy like McDonald?
bad matchup today

or maybe he knocked over Dusty's toothpick box.

or maybe the wind is blowing in ... or blowing out

or Dusty is being Dusty

Where is that Nix fellow

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 11:26 AM
I don't get it. Balentien went 2-for-3 with a home run last night, and doubled and walked the game before that, but despite that he's on the bench today in favor of Darnell McDonald. Can someone explain why that makes any sense at all? Balentien may have a future here, McDonald doesn't (or at least he shouldn't). Why not give Balentien as many atbats as possible instead of wasting them on a guy like McDonald?

Maybe because he has played 8 games in the last 7 days.

flyer85
09-02-2009, 11:33 AM
Maybe because he has played 8 games in the last 7 days.

he all worn out :D

Chip R
09-02-2009, 11:39 AM
he all worn out :D


Keeping him fresh for the stretch run.

fearofpopvol1
09-02-2009, 12:03 PM
I don't get it. Balentien went 2-for-3 with a home run last night, and doubled and walked the game before that, but despite that he's on the bench today in favor of Darnell McDonald. Can someone explain why that makes any sense at all? Balentien may have a future here, McDonald doesn't (or at least he shouldn't). Why not give Balentien as many atbats as possible instead of wasting them on a guy like McDonald?

Dude, Wlad isn't a crafty vet. McDonald is. Dusty favors those types. He loves giving the old guys a chance.

flyer85
09-02-2009, 12:06 PM
Dude, Wlad isn't a crafty vet. McDonald is. Dusty favors those types. He loves giving the old guys a chance.Dusty appreciates how hard the game is and how hard McDonald has worked to get his scrap thrown from the table. IMO, thats why he plays some guys that have no business playing. I may not agree with it but I understand it.

Nasty_Boy
09-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Where is that Nix fellow

Did they DL Nix? I thought I read that.

fearofpopvol1
09-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Dusty appreciates how hard the game is and how hard McDonald has worked to get his scrap thrown from the table. IMO, thats why he plays some guys that have no business playing. I may not agree with it but I understand it.

For a team that "apparently" plans to contend next year, it's an awful strategy. McD isn't part of that "contending" plan next year...the Reds need to find out what they have in the kids so they can plan during the offseason. Dusty, of all people, should realize this as it will be the last year on his contract.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 12:22 PM
For a team that "apparently" plans to contend next year, it's an awful strategy. McD isn't part of that "contending" plan next year...the Reds need to find out what they have in the kids so they can plan during the offseason. Dusty, of all people, should realize this as it will be the last year on his contract.

Balentin has played a lot. It is a day game after a night game. Guys can use a day off here or there, especially one who has played as much as he has.

Dusty is lineup challenged, but this isn't an example of that. It is, however, an example of how every decision gets scrutinized and harped on just because it is Dusty making the decision.

I'm pretty sure that Cincy will know what they have in Balentin by the end of this season. The Sept 2 Pirates game isn't the make or break game for evaluation.

flyer85
09-02-2009, 12:22 PM
For a team that "apparently" plans to contend next year, it's an awful strategy. McD isn't part of that "contending" plan next year...the Reds need to find out what they have in the kids so they can plan during the offseason. Dusty, of all people, should realize this as it will be the last year on his contract.

Dusty being Dusty. It isn't going to change as long as he is around.

Highlifeman21
09-02-2009, 12:28 PM
bad matchup today

or maybe he knocked over Dusty's toothpick box.

or maybe the wind is blowing in ... or blowing out

or Dusty is being Dusty

Where is that Nix fellow

On the DL with a bulging disc, IIRC.

Chip R
09-02-2009, 12:32 PM
Problem is, you can only start 3 OFers at a time. Right now the Reds have Balentien, Gomes, McDonald and Stubbs. When Willy T, Dickerson and Nix get off the DL, that's 7 guys for 3 spots. Gets even more crowded if Bruce is activated. Stubbs will play every day till Willy T is activated so the other 3 have to rotate. Whenever someone sits, someone's going to have a problem with it.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 12:59 PM
Problem is, you can only start 3 OFers at a time. Right now the Reds have Balentien, Gomes, McDonald and Stubbs. When Willy T, Dickerson and Nix get off the DL, that's 7 guys for 3 spots. Gets even more crowded if Bruce is activated. Stubbs will play every day till Willy T is activated so the other 3 have to rotate. Whenever someone sits, someone's going to have a problem with it.

Why do you need to rotate? Play the players that may have a chance to make a difference going forward. The Reds are not winning anything this year. McDonald, Taveras, and Nix do not need to get playing time the rest of the year (maybe a few PH-ing appearances or PR since Willy is so great at that...:rolleyes:). After Dickerson gets back play Stubbs, Dickerson, and Balentien everyday and find out what you have...It's really not that difficult to figure out.

Bum

corkedbat
09-02-2009, 01:03 PM
Sorry to say, but I have been no more impressed with Dusty's eye for talent or approach to the game than that of the average casual fan.

Chip R
09-02-2009, 01:18 PM
Why do you need to rotate? Play the players that may have a chance to make a difference going forward. The Reds are not winning anything this year. McDonald, Taveras, and Nix do not need to get playing time the rest of the year (maybe a few PH-ing appearances or PR since Willy is so great at that...:rolleyes:). After Dickerson gets back play Stubbs, Dickerson, and Balentien everyday and find out what you have...It's really not that difficult to figure out.

Bum


Why do McDonald and Nix have to sit in favor of Balentien?

BRM
09-02-2009, 01:19 PM
Why do McDonald and Nix have to sit in favor of Balentien?

Balentien could be an option for next year's bench. I can't imagine McDonald is an option at all.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 01:24 PM
Why do McDonald and Nix have to sit in favor of Balentien?

You really need to ask this question? :eek: Read my post again. We should play guys that may have a future with the Reds and helping the Reds become a better team. McDonald and Nix and Taveras do not qualify; we know what they can do...What value is there to playing McD or Nix? There certainly is no benefit to winning more games, not that I think those 2 are worth anymore wins anyway.

Bum

Spring~Fields
09-02-2009, 01:41 PM
For a team that "apparently" plans to contend next year, it's an awful strategy. McD isn't part of that "contending" plan next year...the Reds need to find out what they have in the kids so they can plan during the offseason. Dusty, of all people, should realize this as it will be the last year on his contract.

Do you think that Mr. Baker will be getting a contract extension going into the final year of his contract ? Just thinking out loud. :bang::bang: My mind, my mind, I have to do something about my thinking.

But seriously does anyone think he will be getting a contract extension?

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 01:45 PM
You really need to ask this question? :eek: Read my post again. We should play guys that may have a future with the Reds and helping the Reds become a better team. McDonald and Nix and Taveras do not qualify; we know what they can do...What value is there to playing McD or Nix? There certainly is no benefit to winning more games, not that I think those 2 are worth anymore wins anyway.

Bum

What do you do with Gomes?

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 01:46 PM
no. I think the Reds are so worried about the cash that they ride his contract out at least through July next year before they do anything....let me clarify, then they fire him or don't re-sign him. I can't see a scenario where he would get an extension.

Bum

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 01:49 PM
What do you do with Gomes?

Same thing I would always do with Gomes...let him play against lefties especially once Dickerson gets back. He would also be the main PH for late in the game when the Reds have a chance to win. The Reds already know what they have in Gomes, why not find out what you have in the other guys?

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 01:52 PM
Same thing I would always do with Gomes...let him play against lefties especially once Dickerson gets back. He would also be the main PH for late in the game when the Reds have a chance to win. The Reds already know what they have in Gomes, why not find out what you have in the other guys?

Because he might get a bit bent and not re-sign here next season b/c he was benched for the final month after being one of the best hitters on the team this season.

Gomes is your left fielder the rest of the year. Let Stubbs, Dickerson and W rotate.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 02:04 PM
Willy shouldn't rotate with me in CF, let alone some guys that can actually play CF and OPS over .500...As far as Gomes getting bent and not signing...personally I don't care, but I would like to see him back as a 5th OF to play against lefties and situationally for next year. If he doesn't like it, well...y'all can be upset but he's not the long-term answer to the Reds being competitive anyway...but, I would like him back for next season.

Bum

Ltlabner
09-02-2009, 02:07 PM
I can't imagine McDonald is an option at all.

He's had a couple of hot games and I think he's really turned a corner.

/puke

westofyou
09-02-2009, 02:20 PM
Because he might get a bit bent and not re-sign here next season b/c he was benched for the final month after being one of the best hitters on the team this season.

Gomes is your left fielder the rest of the year. Let Stubbs, Dickerson and W rotate.

220 ab's is not something that deserves coddling, loser organizations worry about coddling guys like Gomes.

If Jonny Gomes thinks his bread can be buttered by someone else then so be it.

The Reds can't kiss every player on the month and expect a responding tongue.

IslandRed
09-02-2009, 02:30 PM
Because he might get a bit bent and not re-sign here next season b/c he was benched for the final month after being one of the best hitters on the team this season.

Gomes isn't the one who gets to decide. He's arbitration-eligible but not free agency-eligible, so he can't decline to return if the Reds offer arbitration.

Not saying I think benching him is the right choice either. That is, unless they've already made the choice to non-tender, but I doubt that's the case. It's just one of the numerous outfield-related decisions up in the air at this point.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 02:56 PM
220 ab's is not something that deserves coddling, loser organizations worry about coddling guys like Gomes.

If Jonny Gomes thinks his bread can be buttered by someone else then so be it.

The Reds can't kiss every player on the month and expect a responding tongue.

So we should coddle Balentin, who has produced a phenomenal .231/.303/.373 line in his 225 ABs this season?

Why give the ABs to Balentin?

Hell, we know what we have in Votto and Phillips as well...let's sit them in order to get some other guys some time.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 03:07 PM
Well, we traded for Balentien...which leads me to think that the Reds must of thought he might have a chance to be part of the solution starting next season. So, they need to find out (pst: he's out of options next year). I think Gomes has shown us his best side this season. I don't care if you sit Phillips and Votto now and then, but their positions are not in question; outside of Bruce, the whole OF is a question mark for next year and beyond. That's why. How can one develop such strong feelings for Gomes anyway?

Bum

Guacarock
09-02-2009, 03:16 PM
How can one develop such strong feelings for Gomes anyway?

Bum

Easy, if you're Morticia.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 03:24 PM
How can one develop such strong feelings for Gomes anyway?

Bum

How can one want to bench the team leader in OPS for most of the month of September in order to give time to a guy who was dumped by Seattle? Or a carrer minor leaguer like Dickerson?

Gomes is mashing. Put him in LF and leave him alone.

Some are worried about him hitting RHPs...use this as an opportunity to see if he is truly more than the RH side of a platoon.

Gomes is more likely to be part of the solution next year than Dickerson or Balentin is.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2009, 03:28 PM
How can one want to bench the team leader in OPS for most of the month of September in order to give time to a guy who was dumped by Seattle? Or a carrer minor leaguer like Dickerson?

Gomes is mashing. Put him in LF and leave him alone.

Some are worried about him hitting RHPs...use this as an opportunity to see if he is truly more than the RH side of a platoon.

Gomes is more likely to be part of the solution next year than Dickerson or Balentin is.

Cleveland dumped Brandon Phillips. I guess the Reds shouldn't have picked him up since he obviously wasn't very good.

Dickerson is a career minor leaguer? News to me. I wish we had more career minor leaguers like him that could play plus defense and get on base at an above average clip.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 03:35 PM
Cleveland dumped Brandon Phillips. I guess the Reds shouldn't have picked him up since he obviously wasn't very good.

Dickerson is a career minor leaguer? News to me. I wish we had more career minor leaguers like him that could play plus defense and get on base at an above average clip.

If Cincy had a guy putting up numbers like Gomes is at 2B, would you have advocated benching him for Phillips?

And Dickerson is putting up an OPS+ of 95 this year. Hooray. He'll also be 28 next season. I'll take Dickerson as the 4th OFer next year if Gomes, Stubbs and Bruce are the starting 3. And if Gomes falters, Dickerson can step in.

I've always thought that the guy putting up the best hitting numbers on the team should play and not worry about losing time to guys who get dumped by other lacking franchises. But that's just me.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 03:36 PM
You are on your own with that opinion edabbs...I agree to be in complete disagreement with you. Gomes has proven to be a platoon player his entire career (you do know Gomes only has just over 200 AB's this year, right? With about 40%+ being vs LHP?). I have posted the numbers multiple times; I'm not doing it again. And yes, I want him back as the 5th OF next year; our career minor leaguer Dickerson can be his partner if nobody else is signed.

Bum

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Wladimir Balentien was once a top prospect and is still only 25 and has played relatively well since coming over. I'd like to see him get plenty of playing time to see if he can tap into some of that potential like Brandon Phillips did. I'd rather play him over a 30 something career minor leaguer like Darnell McDonald. But that's just me.

And again, Chris Dickerson has a .373 OBP this season and is a plus defender. Again, I'd love to have more "career minor leaguers" like that. But that's just me.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 03:41 PM
You are on your own with that opinion edabbs...I agree to be in complete disagreement with you. Gomes has proven to be a platoon player his entire career (you do know Gomes only has just over 200 AB's this year, right? With about 40%+ being vs LHP?). I have posted the numbers multiple times; I'm not doing it again. And yes, I want him back as the 5th OF next year; our career minor leaguer Dickerson can be his partner if nobody else is signed.

Bum

Did you know that Gomes has an .880 OPS vs RHPs this season?

If Gomes had been healthy while having those struggles, I would agree with you. But I'd be willing to find out if this isn't a fluke if the price was right.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
Did you know that Gomes has an .880 OPS vs RHPs this season?

If Gomes had been healthy while having those struggles, I would agree with you. But I'd be willing to find out if this isn't a fluke if the price was right.

Sigh...yes, I am aware, I just posted the numbers yesterday on here... .879 in 136 AB's...that somehow over-rides his entire career of struggles vs. RHP?

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
Wladimir Balentien was once a top prospect and is still only 25 and has played relatively well since coming over. I'd like to see him get plenty of playing time to see if he can tap into some of that potential like Brandon Phillips did. I'd rather play him over a 30 something career minor leaguer like Darnell McDonald. But that's just me.

We are talking about Gomes, not McDonald. McDonald should be working at his namesake.

And I understand why Balentien sat today. Playing 8 games in 7 days is a lot on a guy. Maybe he was sore. Maybe he was nicked up. Or maybe he just needed a day. The guy hasn't played all that much this year. 9 games in 8 days is a lot to ask from a guy.


And again, Chris Dickerson has a .373 OBP this season and is a plus defender. Again, I'd love to have more "career minor leaguers" like that. But that's just me.

That's awesome, but if this is what we get from Dickerson next year he will be helping the Reds to some more mediocrity. If Gomes repeats, he will make the team better.

I'm more interested in finding out if this is the real Gomes than if this is the real Dickerson. If this is the real Dickerson, he is a 4th OFer if Stubbs is in CF. If this is the real Gomes he is a middle of the order guy for 2010.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 03:49 PM
Sigh...yes, I am aware, I just posted the numbers yesterday on here... .879 in 136 AB's...that somehow over-rides his entire career of struggles vs. RHP?

2005 he had a .915 OPS vs RHP. Then he hurt his shoulder in 2006.

Maybe they are related? Maybe he is healthy again?

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
So....he's been hurt for 3 years (2006-2008)? That's your stance? I am skeptical of that. I think he is great against LHP and if used right can be productive otherwise. He is marginal in the field. I want to see what Balentien and Dickerson and Stubbs can do on a daily basis. I understand why Balentien wouldn't play 9 games in a row...Gomes has had a lot of AB's to prove otherwise at the MLB level; these other guys may prove differently given a similar number of AB's.

Bum

nate
09-02-2009, 04:03 PM
That's awesome, but if this is what we get from Dickerson next year he will be helping the Reds to some more mediocrity. If Gomes repeats, he will make the team better.

Dickerson plays excellent defense in CF. Gomes plays Dunn-like defense in LF.


I'm more interested in finding out if this is the real Gomes than if this is the real Dickerson. If this is the real Dickerson, he is a 4th OFer if Stubbs is in CF. If this is the real Gomes he is a middle of the order guy for 2010.Personally, I hope the Reds would find guys who make Dickerson and Gomes spot starters and role players. However, I see no to try and build Gomes up by putting Dickerson when the latter has been solid on the field and at the plate.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 04:13 PM
Dickerson plays excellent defense in CF. Gomes plays Dunn-like defense in LF.

Cincy has a "GG" defender in CF in Stubbs. If Stubbs is here, Dickerson is less useful. They need offense and, if Gomes can provide similar offense next season at a reduced rate, that leaves more money for other positions.


Personally, I hope the Reds would find guys who make Dickerson and Gomes spot starters and role players. However, I see no to try and build Gomes up by putting Dickerson when the latter has been solid on the field and at the plate.

Sure I would, but Cincy isn't going to be able to afford big name bats at all the spots they need. If you can get Gomes at a decent rate, then pencil him in for LF and concentrate on SS and the staff. If he falters, then give Dickerson time vs RHPs.

Dickerson hasn't been that solid at the plate also. We can trumpet his .370 OBP but this team needs offense and his overall offensive game leaves something to be desired.

Plus, Dickerson was shaky in LF this year. If he is better in CF than LF then we should be talking Stubbs vs Dickerson, not Dickerson vs Gomes.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 04:14 PM
So....he's been hurt for 3 years (2006-2008)? That's your stance? I am skeptical of that. I think he is great against LHP and if used right can be productive otherwise. He is marginal in the field. I want to see what Balentien and Dickerson and Stubbs can do on a daily basis. I understand why Balentien wouldn't play 9 games in a row...Gomes has had a lot of AB's to prove otherwise at the MLB level; these other guys may prove differently given a similar number of AB's.

Bum

I know he is mashing right now and has mashed in the past. I know that this team needs guys who can mash.

Give time to Balentien, fine. But I'm not sitting Gomes outright.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Scouts' take on Wladimir Balentien:

Reds outfielder Wladimir Balentien: "Iím glad the Reds are taking a look at this kid. He definitely has some tools, some ability. Heís raw but I think thereís something there."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9477

nate
09-02-2009, 04:31 PM
Cincy has a "GG" defender in CF in Stubbs.

I'm not ready to anoint him after a handful of games. He looks great out there and has had a few nice games with the bat. He's on the path to proving something but his shadow isn't even past the starting line yet.


If Stubbs is here, Dickerson is less useful. Why? I think they're complimentary.


They need offense and, if Gomes can provide similar offense next season at a reduced rate, that leaves more money for other positions.Yes but that's a big "if" to expect him to OPS .100 greater than his career numbers.


Sure I would, but Cincy isn't going to be able to afford big name bats at all the spots they need. If you can get Gomes at a decent rate, then pencil him in for LF and concentrate on SS and the staff. If he falters, then give Dickerson time vs RHPs.I think LF is the most likely place they can add offense if they want to maintain the defense they've had this year.


Dickerson hasn't been that solid at the plate also. We can trumpet his .370 OBP but this team needs offense and his overall offensive game leaves something to be desired.His career OPS+ is higher than Gomes'.

I mean, if touting Gomes' nice numbers in a couple hundred ABs this year, surely using Dickerson's nice numbers in a few hundred ABs for his career is OK, right?


Plus, Dickerson was shaky in LF this year. If he is better in CF than LF then we should be talking Stubbs vs Dickerson, not Dickerson vs Gomes.I'm talking Dickerson and Stubbs.

You're the one calling Dickerson a "career minor leaguer" (who's out OPS+ed the guy you're trying to pump up) to somehow make Gomes look good.

I think they're both good and I want them both, just on the bench.

bucksfan2
09-02-2009, 04:41 PM
Scouts' take on Wladimir Balentien:

Reds outfielder Wladimir Balentien: "Iím glad the Reds are taking a look at this kid. He definitely has some tools, some ability. Heís raw but I think thereís something there."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9477

The scary part is the bolded part. Anyone who watches Balentien can see that he is raw. Unfortunately I don't believe he has any options left so he is basically is trying to become more refined at the major league level. If I were the Reds I would use any method possible to send him to the Arizona Fall League this off season. IMO he would get better work there, than in the Latin Amerian winter leagues. I would also use any injury that I could find as an opportunity to DL him and send him on a minor league rehab.

flyer85
09-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Gomes is mashing. Put him in LF and leave him alone.even though his OF defense is among the worst in the majors according to those lovely metrics?

Chip R
09-02-2009, 04:49 PM
The scary part is the bolded part. Anyone who watches Balentien can see that he is raw. Unfortunately I don't believe he has any options left so he is basically is trying to become more refined at the major league level. If I were the Reds I would use any method possible to send him to the Arizona Fall League this off season. IMO he would get better work there, than in the Latin Amerian winter leagues. I would also use any injury that I could find as an opportunity to DL him and send him on a minor league rehab.


Why can't we just re-do his contract?

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:02 PM
John Fay: Baker on Balentien

Wladimir Balentien is healthy. He hasn't started the last three games because Dusty Baker likes a match-up with another player better. In tonight's case, it's Laynce Nix.

I think that in microcosm is the Reds problem: They never completely go with a rebuilding mode. Nothing against Nix but I don't think he's a long-term solution. I don't know that Balentien is either. But he looked as good at the plate in the San Francisco series as anyone not named Joey Votto. Why not give him a long trial?

“He’s playing tomorrow,” Dusty Baker said. “You can’t play everybody. He was supposed to play yesterday, then (Jonny) Gomes) hit three home runs (Thursday). Nix has been swinging good and guys we’re facing are a lot better against right-handers than left-handers, especially this guy today. That kind of answers that. I go with the matchups who I think can hit certain guys and their greatest chance to succeed against that particular guy.”

Yep. That answers that Dusty. You're right - "You can't play everybody.... but you try!!! And that is the problem. That, and your matchups, is the reason why any young player will never get a fair shake, or any type of exposure, on your team.

This is a manager who said the Gomes can't hit RH'd pitching....

.257 BA .335 OB% .544 SLG% .879 OPS

11 of his 16 Hrs have come against RHers

'nuff said IMO.

And I don't say that to imply that Gomes is the answer in LF. Only that Dusty Baker doesn't know crap. ;)

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
even though his OF defense is among the worst in the majors according to those lovely metrics?

If he can provide similar offense to this for a bargain price and Stubbs is as advertised in CF, I'll take the defensive hit in left.

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
This is a manager who said the Gomes can't hit RH'd pitching....

.257 BA .335 OB% .544 SLG% .879 OPS

11 of his 16 Hrs have come against RHers

'nuff said IMO.

Well, the .257 BA is all Dusty needs to see to know Gomes can't hit right-handers.

flyer85
09-02-2009, 05:05 PM
This is a manager who said the Gomes can't hit RH'd pitching....

.257 BA .335 OB% .544 SLG% .879 OPS

11 of his 16 Hrs have come against RHers
numbers shmumbers ... I know what I see

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:06 PM
Well, the .257 BA is all Dusty needs to see to know Gomes can't hit right-handers.

You're right. :p:

But this is a manager who will bat Taveras and Rosales at the top spots in the order when they are given playing time.

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:06 PM
numbers shmumbers ... I know what I see

I'm assuming that remark is dripping in sarcasm? :cool:

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:07 PM
You're right. :p:

But this is a manager who will bat Taveras and Rosales at the top spots in the order when they are given playing time.

Only when Rosales plays SS. ;)

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:09 PM
So we are okay with poor defense/good offense in LF now as long as the player is cheap?

flyer85
09-02-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm assuming that remark is dripping in sarcasm? :cool:

absolutely ... didn't I sound like Dusty.

Let me try it with a toothpick :D

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 05:11 PM
So we are okay with poor defense/good offense in LF now as long as the player is cheap?

Here comes the comparison.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 05:13 PM
Here comes the comparison.

uh...there's no comparison...nice BRM!

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:13 PM
Here comes the comparison.

I just don't understand why salary is such a defining metric. Either the player contributes or he doesn't. If Gomes can be an impact player in LF next year, I'm all for it. Regardless of what he costs. If not, find someone who can be. Regardless of the cost.

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 05:16 PM
I just don't understand why salary is such a defining metric. Either the player contributes or he doesn't. If Gomes can be an impact player in LF next year, I'm all for it. Regardless of what he costs. If not, find someone who can be. Regardless of the cost.

Really? You can't see how a guy making less is more valuable than a guy making more if their production is similar?

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:16 PM
So we are okay with poor defense/good offense in LF now as long as the player is cheap?

Ask Walt. ;)

Is Gomes really a poor defender in LF?

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:17 PM
Really? You can't see how a guy making less is more valuable than a guy making more if their production is similar?

If it's similar, sure.

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:18 PM
Ask Walt. ;)

Is Gomes really a poor defender in LF?

Defensive metrics say he is. If you can believe the metrics.

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:19 PM
Really? You can't see how a guy making less is more valuable than a guy making more if their production is similar?

I don't think that is what BRM, or anybody, is saying though. Of course you want to go with the player that is putting up similar production but making less.

Have we found that guy yet (in several positions)?

We just seem to be going with guys who are making less. ;)

GAC
09-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Defensive metrics say he is. If you can believe the metrics.

Don't know how much credence I give to those defensive metrics either. I realize that is all we have to go on at present, and they are improving, just don't trust them that much at this stage.

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:21 PM
We just seem to be going with guys who are making less. ;)

Except for CF and SS. They went with guys who cost more and produced less.

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:22 PM
Don't know how much credence I give to those defensive metrics either. I realize that is all we have to go on at present, and they are improving, just don't trust them that much at this stage.

That's how I feel about them too. I'm pretty sure he's always been considered a poor defender out there though.

Brutus
09-02-2009, 05:25 PM
Defensive metrics say he is. If you can believe the metrics.

Well, what's interesting is that actually, in LF, Gomes is +8.5 in UZR this year in 166 innings. So according to those metrics, in LF, he's not. Granted, sample size is an issue with that amount.

In RF, it's a different story. In 213 innings, he's -38 in UZR/150.

Bumstead
09-02-2009, 05:26 PM
Have you watched him? Numbers sometimes lie...

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:30 PM
Well, what's interesting is that actually, in LF, Gomes is +8.5 in UZR this year in 166 innings. So according to those metrics, in LF, he's not. Granted, sample size is an issue with that amount.

In RF, it's a different story. In 213 innings, he's -38 in UZR/150.

Interesting indeed. Flyer referred to him as one of the worst defenders in the majors earlier, based on metrics. Not sure which ones he was using though.

Brutus
09-02-2009, 05:32 PM
Have you watched him? Numbers sometimes lie...

I don't think they're lying. I don't think there's a big enough sample to be 100% accurate, either. But I don't think they're lying.

In my opinion, he's nothing more than a last resort kind of option in RF. He's not a good enough defender to play there long term.

But in left, while he's mediocre at best, I actually feel he's an upgrade defensively over what's been out there the last few years. He has poor range, and an OK arm, but does not have terrible instincts, per se.

Would he remain a + fielder in left playing a long period of time? No he would not. I'm just merely pointing out that the 'metrics' were being used to assassinate him as a player all while saying the metrics were phony, yet the metrics didn't necessarily suggest that he was bad in left (this season), regardless of one's opinion of them.

Brutus
09-02-2009, 05:34 PM
Interesting indeed. Flyer referred to him as one of the worst defenders in the majors earlier, based on metrics. Not sure which ones he was using though.

In 100-188 innings in the two years he played in the field in Tampa earlier in his career, he was atrocious according to the UZR. That's probably what Flyer referred to. But just like this year he's +8 in left, those years (where he was like -40ish), the defensive sample truly is too small to get a more accurate depiction of his real ability.

It's probably (if I had to speculate), in the -15 to -20 range over the course of a season.

BRM
09-02-2009, 05:36 PM
Thanks Brutus. So he really is a poor defender. It's just a matter of how poor. Is he slightly below average relative to other leftfielders or is he one of the worst in the game?

Brutus
09-02-2009, 05:43 PM
Thanks Brutus. So he really is a poor defender. It's just a matter of how poor. Is he slightly below average relative to other leftfielders or is he one of the worst in the game?

Yes, that's probably the best way to put it.

My own opinion is that when in left, he's below average, but manageable. I'd love for him to hover around average or slightly above, but realistically, that is not likely to happen.

mth123
09-02-2009, 08:54 PM
Cincy has a "GG" defender in CF in Stubbs. If Stubbs is here, Dickerson is less useful. They need offense and, if Gomes can provide similar offense next season at a reduced rate, that leaves more money for other positions.



Sure I would, but Cincy isn't going to be able to afford big name bats at all the spots they need. If you can get Gomes at a decent rate, then pencil him in for LF and concentrate on SS and the staff. If he falters, then give Dickerson time vs RHPs.

Dickerson hasn't been that solid at the plate also. We can trumpet his .370 OBP but this team needs offense and his overall offensive game leaves something to be desired.

Plus, Dickerson was shaky in LF this year. If he is better in CF than LF then we should be talking Stubbs vs Dickerson, not Dickerson vs Gomes.

I think you're right about that and think they all should be platooned in 2010. Bruce/Balentien in RF, Dickerson/Stubbs in CF, Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF. Dickerson doesn't have the stick to be the LH half of a platoon in the same line-up as Stubbs. Stubbs/Dickerson provides plenty of D and range in CF and platooning them limits the line-up to only one of them in there at a time. The LF platoon can be offensive minded guys like Gomes and a LH version (Maybe Danny Dorn, but I'd rather have more of a track record).

redsfandan
09-02-2009, 09:46 PM
I think you're right about that and think they all should be platooned in 2010. Bruce/Balentien in RF, Dickerson/Stubbs in CF, Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF. Dickerson doesn't have the stick to be the LH half of a platoon in the same line-up as Stubbs. Stubbs/Dickerson provides plenty of D and range in CF and platooning them limits the line-up to only one of them in there at a time. The LF platoon can be offensive minded guys like Gomes and a LH version (Maybe Danny Dorn, but I'd rather have more of a track record).
Bruce/Balentien in RF,
Dickerson/Stubbs in CF,
Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF.

That would mean the Reds would carry 6 outfielders. When is the last time they've carried that many outfielders for a significant amount of time?

edabbs44
09-02-2009, 09:49 PM
I think you're right about that and think they all should be platooned in 2010. Bruce/Balentien in RF, Dickerson/Stubbs in CF, Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF. Dickerson doesn't have the stick to be the LH half of a platoon in the same line-up as Stubbs. Stubbs/Dickerson provides plenty of D and range in CF and platooning them limits the line-up to only one of them in there at a time. The LF platoon can be offensive minded guys like Gomes and a LH version (Maybe Danny Dorn, but I'd rather have more of a track record).

Six OFs?

Brutus
09-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Bruce/Balentien in RF,
Dickerson/Stubbs in CF,
Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF.

That would mean the Reds would carry 6 outfielders. When is the last time they've carried that many outfielders for a significant amount of time?

I'm just not seeing Taveras being released, meaning either Gomes or Balentien would likely be out of the equation.

mth123
09-02-2009, 09:50 PM
That would mean the Reds would carry 6 outfielders. When is the last time they've carried that many outfielders for a significant amount of time.

Not sure, but if they don't bring some one in who is a clear every day guy, its what they need to do. With Votto, Phillips and Rolen the IF is where the day in day out guys are. Only need one extra there and Gomes or whoever the new LH guy is may be able to play a little 1B. Add two catchers and its 13 guys.

redsfandan
09-02-2009, 09:58 PM
Not only do we have to account for the question mark at short, a likely backup there and at 2nd, but also possible missed time by Rolen (likely) and Votto (possible). While I'd love to see Gomes see some time at 1st he hasn't yet.

Patrick Bateman
09-03-2009, 12:38 AM
I bet Taveras will just be released. Having Stubbs and Dickerson on the roster makes him a compeletely moot point in every possible sense.

I'm no fan of Jocketty, but surely he can see that.

Ron Madden
09-03-2009, 04:13 AM
I bet Taveras will just be released. Having Stubbs and Dickerson on the roster makes him a compeletely moot point in every possible sense.

I'm no fan of Jocketty, but surely he can see that.

None of the Reds brass saw it when they went out and over paid Taveras.

Ron Madden
09-03-2009, 04:21 AM
I think Dickerson is being undervalued in this thread.

I believe Dickersons defense has been every bit as good as Stubbs in CF. I think Chris has been the clubs best lead off hitter this year as well. Not taking anything away fom Drew Stubbs or bashing him in any way.

Maybe someone with more talent can be added to the mix during the off season.

reds44
09-03-2009, 04:35 AM
Stubbs is right handed Dickerson with more power.

Edit: Oh and he'll steal more bases.

So basically he is better, right handed Dickerson.

mth123
09-03-2009, 05:56 AM
Lets see. In 2008 Chris Dickerson came up and went .304/.413/.608/.1.021 with 6 HR in his frst 102 MLB ABs. It was well above anything he'd done in the minors and those who knew better ignored it and went on expecting the .750ish OPS with solid defense and OB skills as his major league lot in life and its just about what we've gotten.

Now its 2009 and Drew Stubbs (who hit just 3 HR with a .713 OPS in AAA in 400+ ABs this year) has a 70 AB streak where he's managed to out homer his season's production in AAA (while putting up a still pedestrian .772 OPS) and people are ready to declare him as the answer. Comments like "he's a better hitter", "he has more power" etc are just people misreading what 70 late season ABs really tell us. From my standpoint, Stubbs relative success suggests to me only a few things. He won't be completely overmatched in the majors. His defensive reputation is real and well deserved. He can run like the wind. He plays the graceful, loping type of CF that is very pleasing to watch and seems effortless. But, I've seen nothing to suggest that he is the answer or even better than Dickerson for that matter. In fact the similarities between the two are amazing.

They're both big (Stubbs 6-4 205 and Dickerson 6-3 230) enough to have some power potential, they both have good OB skills with ability to draw walks and get on base, they both strike out at an alarming rate which will leave them with low batting averages, they both play a plus CF (Stubbs is better though IMO), they both run like the wind and both got off to a pretty decent start in their opening major league auditions that raised expectations to an unreasonable level in some on this board.

The primary difference is that Dickerson is a LH bat and Stubbs hits RH. If that doesn't scream out that the Reds could maximize the strengths of both players by platooning them in CF, while losing little in the speed and defense and on base depatment no matter which is out there, then I'm baffled. The combination of these two guys, who would play when they have the best chance to succeed, should be a superior solution to either of them individually. The Reds would have a plus defensive CF who can run and get on base every day and the OPS from the position could probably approach .800 if they were able to maintain the platoon advantage most of the time. Since they'll combine for less than $1 Million in salary, it may be the best bargain in baseball next season and this team needs to successfully fill positions with bargains to have a chance.

I do agree that a little defense is given-up when Dickerson is in there in place of Stubbs, but the drop-off is not too much and its well worth the advantage of having Dickerson's LH bat in there against RHP.

Ron Madden
09-03-2009, 06:47 AM
Stubbs is right handed Dickerson with more power.

Edit: Oh and he'll steal more bases.

So basically he is better, right handed Dickerson.


I'm not sayin' Dickerson is or will be better than Stubbs or that Stubbs is better than Dickerson. Just sayin' I think Dickerson is just as good in CF as Stubbs right now, and has been the teams most productive leadoff hitter IMHO.

lollipopcurve
09-03-2009, 07:37 AM
Dickerson or Stubbs or Heisey can be a 4th OF who plays all spots. Trying to play platoons in all 3 spots makes no sense to me -- it's untenable in terms of roster composition and would probably confuse all 6 players as they try to sort out who's playing when and why -- the matchup? who's hot? who does Baker prefer?

Platooning Gomes with Bruce might make some sense, but it's probably too early to assume Bruce won't hit lefties at an acceptable clip. Balentien and Stubbs do not have splits that suggest they need to be platooned.

My guess is that Gomes or Balentien gets moved before the 2010 season begins.

GAC
09-03-2009, 07:55 AM
I think you're right about that and think they all should be platooned in 2010. Bruce/Balentien in RF, Dickerson/Stubbs in CF, Gomes and some yet to be determined LH Bat in LF. Dickerson doesn't have the stick to be the LH half of a platoon in the same line-up as Stubbs. Stubbs/Dickerson provides plenty of D and range in CF and platooning them limits the line-up to only one of them in there at a time. The LF platoon can be offensive minded guys like Gomes and a LH version (Maybe Danny Dorn, but I'd rather have more of a track record).

But this constant platooning of OFers, based on Baker's idea of who matches up better, is where we are at now.

I like Stubbs in CF. His defense is not in question, but his bat, regardless of his early success since the call-up, is. Especially his lack of power at the minor league level. Is that power "lying in wait"? Could he possibly give us 12-15 Hrs/season, and would that suffice looking at the other advantages he brings?

But look at what CDick did last year during his second half call-up? Was that level of success based more on the fact that pitchers hadn't see/didn't know him? Can the same be said of Stubbs this year?

But I'll take Stubbs/Dickerson in CF next year EASILY over the player whose name should never be mentioned.

I don't agree with platooning Bruce in RF. Bruce's reputation as a prospect was as an elite hitter. Bruce's contributions this year have been almost completely with the glove. The kid has struggled badly vs LH'd pitching. But we also saw drops in his BABIP, and especially LD rate. Now what is the cause of that?..... bad luck, youth/immaturity, swinging at an above average level at pitches out of the strike zone?

But IMO, he has to be given the chance to adapt and work through these things (if possible). And I'm really not that high on Balentien.

The thing that concerns me about our OF corp, other then possibly Dickerson, is that we have guys that swing more than average and walk less than average. Their patience at the plate, or lack thereof, is amazing.

And what about Frazier in LF? I realize we may not see that till after next season, and with some more experience at the AAA level, but why not?

mth123
09-03-2009, 09:16 PM
But this constant platooning of OFers, based on Baker's idea of who matches up better, is where we are at now.

I like Stubbs in CF. His defense is not in question, but his bat, regardless of his early success since the call-up, is. Especially his lack of power at the minor league level. Is that power "lying in wait"? Could he possibly give us 12-15 Hrs/season, and would that suffice looking at the other advantages he brings?

But look at what CDick did last year during his second half call-up? Was that level of success based more on the fact that pitchers hadn't see/didn't know him? Can the same be said of Stubbs this year?

But I'll take Stubbs/Dickerson in CF next year EASILY over the player whose name should never be mentioned.

I don't agree with platooning Bruce in RF. Bruce's reputation as a prospect was as an elite hitter. Bruce's contributions this year have been almost completely with the glove. The kid has struggled badly vs LH'd pitching. But we also saw drops in his BABIP, and especially LD rate. Now what is the cause of that?..... bad luck, youth/immaturity, swinging at an above average level at pitches out of the strike zone?

But IMO, he has to be given the chance to adapt and work through these things (if possible). And I'm really not that high on Balentien.

The thing that concerns me about our OF corp, other then possibly Dickerson, is that we have guys that swing more than average and walk less than average. Their patience at the plate, or lack thereof, is amazing.

And what about Frazier in LF? I realize we may not see that till after next season, and with some more experience at the AAA level, but why not?


Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about? Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan. Only Bruce seems capable of more and if he gets hot and wins a full-time role, than Balentien can be dropped. But I don't want to see Bruce and Dickerson struggle to OPS .500 against LHP and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH). I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively. At any rate, Dickerson and Stubbs should never be in the line-up at the same time and I really have no desire to see either in a corner OF spot unless its as an end of game defensive replacement.

If the Reds can get better players then the whole platoon thing can be abandoned. I don't think they can afford it though and whatever they do have should go towards another starter, a second catcher and a better SS. There are no reasonable internal options for those spots. At this point, I'm not even sure the Reds have room in the budget to bring Gomes back, so going with platoons is the best plan IMO.

Spring~Fields
09-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Bruce's contributions this year have been almost completely with the glove. The kid has struggled badly vs LH'd pitching. But we also saw drops in his BABIP, and especially LD rate. Now what is the cause of that?..... bad luck, youth/immaturity, swinging at an above average level at pitches out of the strike zone?

The thing that concerns me about our OF corp, other then possibly Dickerson, is that we have guys that swing more than average and walk less than average. Their patience at the plate, or lack thereof, is amazing.



Very many of them do that ?? Maybe they are just following hitting instructions. I wonder how much longer Jocketty will be patient with Bruce?

redsfandan
09-03-2009, 10:03 PM
Hopefully Jocketty will REMAIN patient with Bruce. It was half of a season and yet it seems like some people want to call him a bust. I don't believe it.

Ron Madden
09-04-2009, 02:43 AM
Hopefully Jocketty will REMAIN patient with Bruce. It was half of a season and yet it seems like some people want to call him a bust. I don't believe it.

If I were another Teams GM and had a free choice of any of the Reds young OFers Jay Bruce would be my pick of the litter.

WMR
09-04-2009, 03:28 AM
Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about? Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan. Only Bruce seems capable of more and if he gets hot and wins a full-time role, than Balentien can be dropped. But I don't want to see Bruce and Dickerson struggle to OPS .500 against LHP and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH). I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively. At any rate, Dickerson and Stubbs should never be in the line-up at the same time and I really have no desire to see either in a corner OF spot unless its as an end of game defensive replacement.

If the Reds can get better players then the whole platoon thing can be abandoned. I don't think they can afford it though and whatever they do have should go towards another starter, a second catcher and a better SS. There are no reasonable internal options for those spots. At this point, I'm not even sure the Reds have room in the budget to bring Gomes back, so going with platoons is the best plan IMO.

You know, if the Reds had a management team creative and industrious enough to give this a try, the Reds could be very interesting in 2010.

It's a shame I think it's unfortunately a pipe dream.

GAC
09-04-2009, 06:29 AM
Cleveland dumped Brandon Phillips. I guess the Reds shouldn't have picked him up since he obviously wasn't very good.

They didn't really dump him per say. They mishandled him to the point they were out of options and had to either deal him or lose him. And that's when WK swept in.

And Indian fans, to this day, are still irate over losing BP. ;)

GAC
09-04-2009, 07:17 AM
Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about?

Because that is what Dusty Baker does. Go back and read the very initial post of this thread and Baker's comments.


Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan.

Settling on platooning players, who would be sitting on most team's benches as utility guys, to somehow "squeeze" the most out of them, may look good in principle, and I realize it's trying to make the best out of the situation we're in; but IMO, it's a poor idea and approach. I just don't see successful teams platooning that many positions.


and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH)

I'm not campaigning for Gomes as our starting LFer, but vs RHer, the guy put up some pretty impressive numbers vs this RH'd pitching that Baker says he can't hit....


By Breakdown AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 80 11 26 5 0 5 17 7 2 23 1 0 .325 .393 .575 .968
vs. Right 137 20 35 6 0 11 25 14 3 50 2 1 .255 .333 .540 .873

We're not gonna quibble about .027 in OPS are we? ;)


I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively.

We don't know that he'd be a drag on this offense. Lets find out. He certainly will provide better offense then you know who? And again, I keep CDick as that other option in CF.


If the Reds can get better players then the whole platoon thing can be abandoned. I don't think they can afford it though and whatever they do have should go towards another starter, a second catcher and a better SS. There are no reasonable internal options for those spots. At this point, I'm not even sure the Reds have room in the budget to bring Gomes back, so going with platoons is the best plan IMO.

If their budget can't even afford to bring Gomes back, then cross finding a catcher, a better SS, and another starter off the list. It won't happen either.

As far as starting pitching goes? What you see is what we're going to get in 2010 IMO. Not saying that the Cordero, Arroyo, and Harang contracts are untradeable; but pretty darn close. Especially Harang's right now. 36M tied up in three guys in 2010. We're stuck. Maybe at the trading deadline next year we may have better luck.

But don't be surprised to see a rotation of Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, and then a hodgepodge of Owings, Lehr, Wells, Maloney, and maybe even Masset.

SS? Here's the SS FA list... http://baseballmoves.com/2010-free-agents/shortstops.php

Jason Bay is a FA at season's end. Yeah I know.... but a guy can dream :D

And I'm still pushing trying to get Sizemore from the Indians.

jojo
09-04-2009, 08:48 AM
Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about? Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan. Only Bruce seems capable of more and if he gets hot and wins a full-time role, than Balentien can be dropped. But I don't want to see Bruce and Dickerson struggle to OPS .500 against LHP and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH). I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively. At any rate, Dickerson and Stubbs should never be in the line-up at the same time and I really have no desire to see either in a corner OF spot unless its as an end of game defensive replacement.

If the Reds can get better players then the whole platoon thing can be abandoned. I don't think they can afford it though and whatever they do have should go towards another starter, a second catcher and a better SS. There are no reasonable internal options for those spots. At this point, I'm not even sure the Reds have room in the budget to bring Gomes back, so going with platoons is the best plan IMO.

Fire Dusty. Hire Earl. Bring in Palmer as the pitching coach (mostly because it'll keep Earl "energized").

redsfandan
09-04-2009, 10:41 AM
If I were another Teams GM and had a free choice of any of the Reds young OFers Jay Bruce would be my pick of the litter.
Me too.



Settling on platooning players, who would be sitting on most team's benches as utility guys, to somehow "squeeze" the most out of them, may look good in principle, and I realize it's trying to make the best out of the situation we're in; but IMO, it's a poor idea and approach. I just don't see successful teams platooning that many positions.

I think platoons can work as long as you don't overdo it. My problem with the suggestion by mth123 is that, at least at one time, his plan had 6 outfielders platooning 3 spots. And I just don't see the Reds carrying 6 outfielders.

As far as starting pitching goes? What you see is what we're going to get in 2010 IMO. Not saying that the Cordero, Arroyo, and Harang contracts are untradeable; but pretty darn close. Especially Harang's right now. 36M tied up in three guys in 2010. We're stuck. Maybe at the trading deadline next year we may have better luck.

But don't be surprised to see a rotation of Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, and then a hodgepodge of Owings, Lehr, Wells, Maloney, and maybe even Masset.
I hope you just overlooked Bailey. A rotation of Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Bailey, and THEN the hodgepodge for the 5th spot doesn't loook that bad to me.

CrackerJack
09-04-2009, 11:26 AM
If I were another Teams GM and had a free choice of any of the Reds young OFers Jay Bruce would be my pick of the litter.

But if he's not ready, he's not ready.

GAC
09-04-2009, 12:03 PM
I hope you just overlooked Bailey.

Yes I did. ;)

Which makes it even more unlikely, IMO, that they'll be spending money on another starter.

IslandRed
09-04-2009, 01:21 PM
Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about? Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan. Only Bruce seems capable of more and if he gets hot and wins a full-time role, than Balentien can be dropped. But I don't want to see Bruce and Dickerson struggle to OPS .500 against LHP and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH). I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively. At any rate, Dickerson and Stubbs should never be in the line-up at the same time and I really have no desire to see either in a corner OF spot unless its as an end of game defensive replacement.

I'd rather see Stubbs go back to Louisville next year than be the short half of a platoon. I understand the short-term benefits of maximizing platoon splits but it can run counter to long-term player development, especially for players the club believes are on the everyday-player track. Platooning tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. This goes double for right-handed batters, since the left-handed side of the platoon gets most of the at-bats.

Now, at some point, a guy's splits tell you "this is what he is," and you deal with it from there. Dickerson's probably at that point, his platoon split has been obvious for years. But Stubbs isn't; small MLB sample size aside, his career splits say he hits righties just as well as lefties. Maybe Dickerson hits righties better, but that's not the same thing as saying Stubbs needs protecting. Stubbs needs at-bats, period. Make him the short half of a platoon at this very critical juncture in his development, and we're declaring that we're okay with consigning him to the fourth OF/defensive replacement bin. I'm not ready to do that just yet.

Falls City Beer
09-04-2009, 02:52 PM
Hopefully Jocketty will REMAIN patient with Bruce. It was half of a season and yet it seems like some people want to call him a bust. I don't believe it.

Some hitters have a learning curve; Bruce has a learning mountain.

He can be good, but I see no reason whatsoever not to temper my expectations.

Most wunderkinds come up and hit and don't stop.

Chip R
09-04-2009, 02:58 PM
Some hitters have a learning curve; Bruce has a learning mountain.

He can be good, but I see no reason whatsoever not to temper my expectations.

Most wunderkinds come up and hit and don't stop.


And if he does turn the corner, I'm sure you'll say you knew he would all along.

Falls City Beer
09-04-2009, 03:05 PM
And if he does turn the corner, I'm sure you'll say you knew he would all along.

As I've said three times: I was and am a big Bruce cheerleader. And I think he can improve. But it would be ridiculous to suggest that it's a certainty or even a near-certainty that he will be the player most saw in him.

Counting on him to be a driver next season will land this team in the place it currently inhabits. Time to find someone well along on his learning curve if they hope to do something next year.

edabbs44
09-04-2009, 03:17 PM
As I've said three times: I was and am a big Bruce cheerleader. And I think he can improve. But it would be ridiculous to suggest that it's a certainty or even a near-certainty that he will be the player most saw in him.

Counting on him to be a driver next season will land this team in the place it currently inhabits. Time to find someone well along on his learning curve if they hope to do something next year.

This is the problem with what this team wants to do. The whole win now mentality is ridiculous when you have youngsters in key spots.

No one should count on a 22-23 year old to be a driver. They should count on the year being spent as a building block to a successful career. If the rest of the team is good enough to carry him through the ups and downs of being a youngster, even better. Take your lumps while the youngsters get an education. If they suck at the age of 21, big deal. Let them learn on the big stage if they are done with the minors.

Falls City Beer
09-04-2009, 03:26 PM
If they suck at the age of 21, big deal. Let them learn on the big stage if they are done with the minors.

It may not be a huge deal that he's struggling at 21, but it's just as likely to be a huge deal.

"Lost" doesn't do Bruce's struggles justice. I'm saying it would be a bit nuts to disregard his struggles as "just the struggles of a 21 year old." If he were a pitcher I'd feel differently.

jojo
09-04-2009, 03:26 PM
As I've said three times: I was and am a big Bruce cheerleader.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7595/cheer.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/i/cheer.jpg/)

redsfandan
09-04-2009, 03:32 PM
LOL ah hell jojo I think I needed that so thanks. LOL

mth123
09-04-2009, 07:40 PM
I'd rather see Stubbs go back to Louisville next year than be the short half of a platoon. I understand the short-term benefits of maximizing platoon splits but it can run counter to long-term player development, especially for players the club believes are on the everyday-player track. Platooning tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. This goes double for right-handed batters, since the left-handed side of the platoon gets most of the at-bats.

Now, at some point, a guy's splits tell you "this is what he is," and you deal with it from there. Dickerson's probably at that point, his platoon split has been obvious for years. But Stubbs isn't; small MLB sample size aside, his career splits say he hits righties just as well as lefties. Maybe Dickerson hits righties better, but that's not the same thing as saying Stubbs needs protecting. Stubbs needs at-bats, period. Make him the short half of a platoon at this very critical juncture in his development, and we're declaring that we're okay with consigning him to the fourth OF/defensive replacement bin. I'm not ready to do that just yet.

I agree with most of what you say with two counterpoints:

1. I don't think Stubbs will hit enough to be an everyday player and since we know Dickerson can only play against RH Pitching some one has to play. Lets use Stubbs for that (unless he can be dealt for something good). I don't want to see Willy for even one more game, so Stubbs is the guy here.

2, Bruce could play every day I guess. I have no real allegiance to Balentien, but we watched Bruce really struggle against LHP and maybe a reduced role where he can have success will be the way to get him back on the right road.

Beside, the Reds simply don't have the money to do anything else.

Spring~Fields
09-04-2009, 09:25 PM
It may not be a huge deal that he's struggling at 21, but it's just as likely to be a huge deal.

"Lost" doesn't do Bruce's struggles justice. I'm saying it would be a bit nuts to disregard his struggles as "just the struggles of a 21 year old." If he were a pitcher I'd feel differently.

I remember you warning me about his stats last year, in the game threads, and you were correct to this point in his career. I was so pro Jay Bruce at the time, it even ruffled my feathers, well my feathers got straightened out, but Bruces hitting hasn't to date.

My question is why leave Bruce up to struggle and to drag down the already deflated offense when the Reds have options amongst the fodder that they already have that produce better numbers, at least until Bruce is truly ready, let him train on the training grounds in the minors until he can do the job.

As much as we belly ached about Tevaras with good cause, I don't see giving Bruce a free pass at the major league level. He is still young and can learn his skills down where he was suppose to have already.

mth123
09-04-2009, 09:34 PM
I remember you warning me about his stats last year, in the game threads, and you were correct to this point in his career. I was so pro Jay Bruce at the time, it even ruffled my feathers, well my feathers got straightened out, but Bruces hitting hasn't to date.

My question is why leave Bruce up to struggle and to drag down the already deflated offense when the Reds have options amongst the fodder that they already have that produce better numbers, at least until Bruce is truly ready, let him train on the training grounds in the minors until he can do the job.

As much as we belly ached about Tevaras with good cause, I don't see giving Bruce a free pass at the major league level. He is still young and can learn his skills down where he was suppose to have already.

Bruce's power provides some production that Willy won't approach and Bruce has a much better glove as well. I do agree that they shouldn't just let him flail away. Its why I think he should be platooned until he proves otherwise.

Spring~Fields
09-04-2009, 10:03 PM
Bruce's power provides some production that Willy won't approach and Bruce has a much better glove as well. I do agree that they shouldn't just let him flail away. Its why I think he should be platooned until he proves otherwise.

I could trust you or some of the others in Redszone to pay attention to what is really going on in the numbers between the batters and the pitchers, to do a decent balance of platooning, but, I don't think the numbers are that critically observed and interpreted correctly and applied with the management on the Reds.

Jay Bruce

2009
vs. Left .183 .276 .280 .556
vs. Right .218 .286 .515 .801
2008
vs. Left .190 .263 .299 .562
vs. Right .286 .340 .529 .869

2008 Cin .254 .314 .453 .767
2009 Cin .207 .283 .441 .724

I know that he had 18 homeruns in limited playing time, and we know that he had several assists defensively, so he is an excellent defender. What about the rest of his game at 22 years of age? To me, this year he was like a dead spot in the lineup, akin to a short in the electrical system on a car. I don’t like dead spots. I don’t like Tevaras at all, and I see nothing in his past numbers to say that he is solution for the Reds. Of course we expect Jay Bruce to grow and to get much better with time. But why, why do the fans have to suffer with a Tevaras or a learning Jay Bruce game after game, throughout a season, like they had to with a Patterson last year when it is beyond obvious that the guys either don’t have it or they are not ready for this level?

Because the outfield is so weak at producing, I believe is the reason why we all speculate about the Reds having to get a hitting C, LF, CF, SS etc. not likely, well not all in one off season.

westofyou
09-04-2009, 10:04 PM
It may not be a huge deal that he's struggling at 21, but it's just as likely to be a huge deal.

"Lost" doesn't do Bruce's struggles justice. I'm saying it would be a bit nuts to disregard his struggles as "just the struggles of a 21 year old." If he were a pitcher I'd feel differently.

He's actually 22.

He also was -12 rc vs the league average last season.

That's by the TB rate.

Anyway, here's the best 100 21 year olds RC vs the league (and the worst)

400 PA's




SEASON
AGE = 21
OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SLG vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RCAA YEAR RCAA OPS OBA SLG
1 Joe Jackson 1911 105 .341 .120 .220
2 Eddie Mathews 1953 80 .260 .060 .200
3 Jimmie Foxx 1929 75 .308 .104 .203
4 Denny Lyons 1887 73 .221 .076 .145
5 Ted Williams 1940 72 .260 .090 .170
T6 Mel Ott 1930 57 .202 .088 .114
T6 Hal Trosky 1934 57 .210 .026 .183
8 Albert Pujols 2001 56 .233 .063 .170
9 Ty Cobb 1908 55 .226 .064 .162
10 Sam Crawford 1901 52 .212 .048 .164
T11 Ken Griffey Jr. 1991 51 .203 .070 .133
T11 Rickey Henderson 1980 51 .089 .089 .000
T13 Mike Tiernan 1888 49 .160 .070 .089
T13 Al Kaline 1956 49 .156 .034 .122
15 Arky Vaughan 1933 47 .164 .061 .103
T16 Sherry Magee 1906 46 .113 .029 .085
T16 Mickey Mantle 1953 46 .152 .052 .100
T18 Cesar Cedeno 1972 45 .218 .060 .158
T18 Rogers Hornsby 1917 45 .216 .071 .145
20 Stan Musial 1942 44 .204 .069 .135
21 Fred Carroll 1886 42 .148 .053 .095
22 John McGraw 1894 40 .055 .064 -.009
T23 Hank Aaron 1955 39 .149 .030 .119
T23 Tom McCreery 1896 39 .196 .046 .149
T25 Joe DiMaggio 1936 36 .115 -.022 .138
T25 Frank Robinson 1957 36 .157 .045 .113
T25 Joe Morgan 1965 36 .079 .051 .027
T25 Orlando Cepeda 1959 36 .123 .019 .104
29 Del Ennis 1946 35 .143 .026 .118
30 Tris Speaker 1909 33 .171 .048 .123
T31 Curt Blefary 1965 30 .146 .060 .086
T31 Jack O'Connor 1890 30 .108 .039 .069
T33 Jesse Burkett 1890 28 .142 .031 .111
T33 Richie Ashburn 1948 28 .069 .067 .002
T35 Stuffy McInnis 1912 27 .117 .043 .075
T35 Johnny Bench 1969 27 .126 .023 .102
T35 Joe Kelley 1893 27 .124 .037 .087
38 Miguel Cabrera 2004 26 .101 .025 .075
39 Joe Medwick 1933 25 .132 .010 .122
T40 Reddy Mack 1887 24 .089 .071 .018
T40 Richie Hebner 1969 24 .087 .051 .036
42 Fred Merkle 1910 23 .108 .015 .092
T43 Whitey Lockman 1948 22 .074 .018 .056
T43 Tom Brunansky 1982 22 .117 .049 .068
T43 Lloyd Waner 1927 22 .057 .047 .010
46 Bob Horner 1979 21 .164 .011 .153
T47 Ross Youngs 1918 20 .088 .050 .038
T47 Ben Chapman 1930 20 .050 .010 .040
T47 Darryl Strawberry 1983 20 .126 .004 .122
T47 Vada Pinson 1960 20 .078 .010 .068
51 Eddie Murphy 1913 19 .064 .055 .009
T52 Jake Beckley 1889 18 .067 .002 .065
T52 Darrell Porter 1973 18 .111 .035 .076
T54 Tony Conigliaro 1966 17 .119 .015 .105
T54 Carlos May 1969 17 .158 .054 .104
T54 Alex Rodriguez 1997 17 .076 .009 .067
T57 Eddie Murray 1977 16 .068 .003 .065
T57 Boog Powell 1963 16 .083 .007 .076
T59 Steve Brodie 1890 15 .069 .052 .017
T59 Larry Doyle 1908 15 .126 .046 .080
T59 Greg Luzinski 1972 15 .081 .007 .074
T62 Andruw Jones 1998 14 .072 -.019 .091
T62 Greg Gross 1974 14 .056 .058 -.002
T64 Harry Heilmann 1916 13 .094 .019 .075
T64 Jim Fregosi 1963 13 .032 .004 .028
T64 John Olerud 1990 13 .079 .037 .043
T64 Juan Gonzalez 1991 13 .076 -.008 .084
T64 George Burns 1914 13 .074 .021 .053
T64 Gary Sheffield 1990 13 .056 .022 .033
T70 Adrian Beltre 2000 12 .038 .009 .028
T70 Donie Bush 1909 12 .060 .067 -.007
T72 Ron Santo 1961 11 .084 .026 .059
T72 Delino DeShields 1990 11 .040 .044 -.004
T74 Rick Manning 1976 10 .049 .017 .032
T74 Freddy Lindstrom 1927 10 .041 .006 .036
T76 Dick Kokos 1949 9 .054 -.012 .066
T76 Carney Lansford 1978 9 .035 .013 .021
T76 Rusty Staub 1965 9 .039 .017 .022
T76 Jose Canseco 1986 9 .037 -.011 .049
T76 Cecil Travis 1935 9 .000 .017 -.017
T76 Ryan Zimmerman 2006 9 .037 .008 .029
T82 Cal Ripken 1982 8 .062 -.011 .073
T82 Roberto Alomar 1989 8 .024 .026 -.003
T84 Rafael Furcal 2000 7 -.021 .043 -.064
T84 Barry Bonds 1986 7 .021 -.002 .022
T84 Gary Carter 1975 7 .056 .024 .032
T84 Garry Templeton 1977 7 .038 -.001 .039
T84 Ted Simmons 1971 7 .064 .021 .043
T84 Rod Carew 1967 7 .072 .029 .044
T90 Vern Stephens 1942 6 .062 .001 .061
T90 Rick Monday 1967 6 .063 .009 .054
T90 Terry Puhl 1978 6 -.005 .013 -.018
T90 Willie Randolph 1976 6 .003 .036 -.033
T90 Joe Vosmik 1931 6 .063 .009 .054
T95 Dion James 1984 4 .004 .024 -.021
T95 Jim Field 1884 4 -.008 .009 -.017
T95 Clyde Milan 1908 4 .003 .001 .003
T95 Johnny Evers 1903 4 .004 -.016 .020
T99 Ed Kranepool 1966 3 -.007 -.007 .000
T99 Jim Nealon 1906 3 .038 .007 .030
T99 Billy Nash 1886 3 .009 .011 -.003
T99 Tim McCarver 1963 3 .020 .017 .003
T99 Bob Coluccio 1973 3 .012 -.017 .030


SEASON
AGE = 21
OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SLG vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RCAA YEAR RCAA OPS OBA SLG
1 Jiggs Parrott 1893 -50 -.175 -.098 -.077
2 Jim Donnelly 1887 -47 -.235 -.099 -.135
3 Cristian Guzman 1999 -43 -.244 -.080 -.164
4 John Cahill 1886 -41 -.182 -.094 -.087
5 Shorty Fuller 1889 -39 -.118 -.038 -.080
6 Buck Weaver 1912 -35 -.154 -.096 -.058
7 Joe Dugan 1918 -33 -.176 -.101 -.074
T8 Dick Schofield 1984 -29 -.197 -.062 -.135
T8 Aurelio Rodriguez 1969 -29 -.136 -.059 -.077
T8 Tommy Corcoran 1890 -29 -.143 -.071 -.073
T11 Frankie Hayes 1936 -28 -.090 -.040 -.051
T11 Tim Foli 1972 -28 -.143 -.045 -.098
T13 Bob Kennedy 1942 -27 -.144 -.070 -.073
T13 Ken Hubbs 1963 -27 -.090 -.031 -.058
T13 Lou Bierbauer 1887 -27 -.093 -.055 -.038
T16 Charlie Grimm 1920 -26 -.135 -.057 -.079
T16 George Kell 1944 -26 -.092 -.035 -.057
18 Marty McManus 1921 -25 -.111 -.057 -.054
T19 Howard Earl 1890 -24 -.057 -.051 -.007
T19 Bill Wambsganss 1915 -24 -.170 -.061 -.108
T19 Bobby Sturgeon 1941 -24 -.157 -.076 -.081
22 Charley O'Leary 1904 -23 -.125 -.050 -.076
T23 Tony Kubek 1958 -22 -.116 -.035 -.081
T23 Ed Brinkman 1963 -22 -.121 -.046 -.075
T25 John Knight 1907 -21 -.092 -.049 -.043
T25 Red Kress 1928 -21 -.061 -.022 -.039
T25 Brooks Robinson 1958 -21 -.131 -.038 -.093
T28 Wayne Garrett 1969 -20 -.157 -.040 -.117
T28 Dick Groat 1952 -20 -.092 -.015 -.077
T28 Chris Speier 1971 -20 -.077 -.019 -.058
T28 Mark Koenig 1926 -20 -.086 -.042 -.043
T28 Luis Rivas 2001 -20 -.082 -.015 -.067
T33 Howie Schultz 1944 -19 -.032 -.045 .013
T33 Tommy McMillan 1909 -19 -.134 -.066 -.068
T33 Jose Guillen 1997 -19 -.055 -.042 -.013
T36 Rabbit Robinson 1903 -18 -.099 -.033 -.066
T36 Harry Steinfeldt 1899 -18 -.080 -.028 -.051
T38 Zoilo Versalles 1961 -17 -.046 -.025 -.021
T38 Dick Bartell 1929 -17 -.045 -.022 -.024
T38 Eddie Yost 1948 -17 -.047 -.009 -.038
T41 Lloyd Moseby 1981 -16 -.058 -.043 -.015
T41 Carl Yastrzemski 1961 -16 -.029 -.015 -.015
T41 Alfredo Griffin 1979 -16 -.046 -.001 -.045
T44 Sammy Sosa 1990 -15 -.028 -.045 .017
T44 Ruben Sierra 1987 -15 .012 -.032 .044
T44 Arnold Hauser 1910 -15 -.123 -.025 -.098
T44 Granny Hamner 1948 -15 -.094 -.045 -.048
T44 Everett Scott 1914 -15 -.079 -.044 -.035
T44 Howard Freigau 1924 -15 -.082 -.040 -.042
T44 Sibby Sisti 1942 -15 -.100 -.032 -.068
T51 Elbie Fletcher 1937 -14 -.110 -.021 -.089
T51 Harold Baines 1980 -14 -.044 -.050 .006
T51 Jim Fogarty 1885 -14 -.063 -.008 -.055
T51 Howard Shanks 1912 -14 -.086 -.036 -.050
T51 Hal Lanier 1964 -14 -.082 -.038 -.044
T51 Edgar Renteria 1998 -14 -.075 .007 -.082
T57 Ozzie Guillen 1985 -13 -.083 -.036 -.047
T57 Bruno Betzel 1916 -13 -.052 -.025 -.028
T59 Larry Parrish 1975 -12 .004 -.022 .026
T59 Jake Gettman 1898 -12 -.032 -.024 -.008
T59 Derrel Thomas 1972 -12 -.103 -.034 -.069
T59 Buddy Kerr 1944 -12 -.008 -.019 .010
T59 Bobby Doerr 1939 -12 .028 .004 .024
T64 Carl Crawford 2003 -11 -.091 -.025 -.067
T64 Jerry Browne 1987 -11 -.061 .025 -.086
T64 Wil Cordero 1993 -11 -.054 -.029 -.026
T64 Rabbit Maranville 1913 -11 -.063 -.004 -.059
T64 Joe Cassidy 1904 -11 -.036 -.038 .002
T64 Delmon Young 2007 -11 -.039 -.023 -.016
T64 Hal Janvrin 1914 -11 -.064 -.033 -.031
T71 Chet Lemon 1976 -10 -.055 -.022 -.033
T71 Frankie Gustine 1941 -10 -.039 -.023 -.016
T71 Paul Molitor 1978 -10 -.038 -.026 -.012
T74 Dave Roberts 1972 -9 -.109 -.050 -.058
T74 Paul Blair 1965 -9 -.065 -.019 -.046
T74 Travis Jackson 1925 -9 -.063 -.031 -.032
T74 Claudell Washington 1976 -9 -.026 -.019 -.008
T78 Frankie Crosetti 1932 -8 -.066 -.021 -.045
T78 Jay Bruce 2008 -8 .001 -.025 .026
T78 Al Lopez 1930 -8 -.054 -.008 -.046
T78 Jose Cardenal 1965 -8 -.051 -.034 -.017
T82 Jack Smith 1916 -7 -.022 -.021 .000
T82 George Brett 1974 -7 -.019 -.010 -.008
T82 Ivan Rodriguez 1993 -7 -.018 -.022 .005
T82 Sixto Lezcano 1975 -7 -.001 -.004 .003
T82 Alan Trammell 1979 -7 -.052 .000 -.052
T82 Harlond Clift 1934 -7 .001 -.005 .006
T82 Ron Swoboda 1965 -7 .002 -.031 .033
T82 Gene Freese 1955 -7 -.021 -.027 .006
T90 Phil Lewis 1906 -6 -.054 -.010 -.043
T90 Elmer Valo 1942 -6 -.022 .015 -.036
T90 Mike Caruso 1998 -6 -.052 -.009 -.042
T93 Butch Wynegar 1977 -5 -.021 .014 -.035
T93 Max West 1938 -5 -.061 -.039 -.023
T93 John Anderson 1895 -5 -.019 -.054 .036
T93 Ken Keltner 1938 -5 .014 -.050 .064
T93 Jim Spencer 1969 -5 -.027 -.027 .000
T98 Ecky Stearns 1883 -4 .010 .021 -.011
T98 Tommy Leach 1899 -4 -.002 -.003 .002
T98 Buddy Lewis 1938 -4 -.016 -.015 -.001
T98 Dalton Jones 1965 -4 -.007 .004 -.011
T98 Willard Marshall 1942 -4 -.005 -.021 .016

Spring~Fields
09-04-2009, 10:07 PM
I really think that Jocketty and his crew will get it straightened out and do what is really best for the Reds and the players in question too.

jojo
09-05-2009, 08:15 AM
I remember you warning me about his stats last year, in the game threads, and you were correct to this point in his career. I was so pro Jay Bruce at the time, it even ruffled my feathers, well my feathers got straightened out, but Bruces hitting hasn't to date.

My question is why leave Bruce up to struggle and to drag down the already deflated offense when the Reds have options amongst the fodder that they already have that produce better numbers, at least until Bruce is truly ready, let him train on the training grounds in the minors until he can do the job.

As much as we belly ached about Tevaras with good cause, I don't see giving Bruce a free pass at the major league level. He is still young and can learn his skills down where he was suppose to have already.

Jay Bruce has been a league average player who we had hoped was going to be 1 to 1.5 wins better during his year 22 season.

Willy Taveras clearly projected as a bad idea going (a below league average player) into the season and he's actually been worse than a replacement level player thus far.

Bruce isn't getting a free pass.

OnBaseMachine
09-05-2009, 11:13 AM
In 85 plate appearances with the Reds, Balentien is hitting .284/.376/.459 - .835 OPS, and he's played good defense too. What has impressed me the most about Balentien has been his plate discipline (11 BB/15 K in 85 PA). That had been his biggest problem with the Mariners (13 BB/43 K in 170 PA this year with Mariners; 16 BB/79 K in 260 PA last season). I really like what I've seen from him so far. Hopefully he receives plenty of playing time from here on out.

Falls City Beer
09-05-2009, 11:15 AM
Balentien hasn't Pipped Bruce, but he's certainly made the notion of a platoon far too palatable to ignore.

Spring~Fields
09-05-2009, 11:57 AM
Jay Bruce has been a league average player who we had hoped was going to be 1 to 1.5 wins better during his year 22 season.

Willy Taveras clearly projected as a bad idea going (a below league average player) into the season and he's actually been worse than a replacement level player thus far.

Bruce isn't getting a free pass.

I can understand. If you JoJo enjoyed watching this years Jay Bruce, I am fine with that. I suspect that there is a better Jay Bruce to enjoy watching in the future. Free pass to me is getting playing time, while others who may have shown better performance are compelled to sit and watch as the other struggles.

By John Fay • jfays@enquirer.com • September 4, 2009

ATLANTA - Right fielder Jay Bruce would like his rehab assignment to be short and sweet. Dusty Baker isn’t in so much of a rush.

“I don’t know,” Baker said. “He’s hoping for a short time. But I told him I want him ready because he missed a lot of time.”

Bruce missed eight weeks with a broken right wrist. He went 0-for-3 in his first game of rehab.

“I think it will be more than a couple of days like he thinks,” Baker said. “You’ve got to have your stroke. I told him I didn’t want him to come back struggling. You don’t want to be below the Mendoza Line on his bubblegum card.
“At the same time, we want him productive if he’s going to play. He might have to go into the playoffs even.”

Baker will revisit the situation after Sunday’s game.

“I told him to check back in with me on Sunday,” Baker said. “We’ll check with the people down there. Sometimes, your numbers aren’t indicative of the way you’re swinging for sure.”

redsfandan
09-05-2009, 11:57 AM
Balentien hasn't Pipped Bruce, but he's certainly made the notion of a platoon far too palatable to ignore.
Balentien vs LHP in '09: .171 .247 .303 .550
Balentien vs RHP in '09: .268 .335 .431 .767

Bruce vs LHP in '09: .183 .276 .280 .556
Bruce vs RHP in '09: .218 .286 .515 .801

So which one would we bat vs lefties?

Spring~Fields
09-05-2009, 12:05 PM
In 85 plate appearances with the Reds, Balentien is hitting .284/.376/.459 - .835 OPS, and he's played good defense too. What has impressed me the most about Balentien has been his plate discipline (11 BB/15 K in 85 PA). That had been his biggest problem with the Mariners (13 BB/43 K in 170 PA this year with Mariners; 16 BB/79 K in 260 PA last season). I really like what I've seen from him so far. Hopefully he receives plenty of playing time from here on out.

How would you compare and contrast the assertions that you are making here in the case for Balentien to that of Jay Bruce this season?

OnBaseMachine
09-05-2009, 12:57 PM
Jay Bruce would be my starting right fielder when he returns and he's my starter going into 2010. I still think he's a future superstar. My opinion of him hasn't changed at all.

jojo
09-05-2009, 01:19 PM
Balentien hasn't Pipped Bruce, but he's certainly made the notion of a platoon far too palatable to ignore.

Bruce is the Reds RFer next year. It's not certain that Wlad will even make the Reds organization next year.

Cooper
09-05-2009, 01:20 PM
There's an awful lot of good players on the list that WOY. You have to have some good skills to be that young to even get that many plate appearances. Ride it out, things will get better. If he was 26 then you have a real issue, but he ain't.

Btw, you wonder how many players on the lists were actually the age they said they were.

Would love to see a list with players who did not perform as expected at age 31...or something like that.

jojo
09-05-2009, 01:24 PM
I can understand. If you JoJo enjoyed watching this years Jay Bruce, I am fine with that. I suspect that there is a better Jay Bruce to enjoy watching in the future. Free pass to me is getting playing time, while others who may have shown better performance are compelled to sit and watch as the other struggles.

It has nothing to do with enjoy or like or dislike or whatever. He's produced at a level of a league average player. It is what it is. Who on the 40 man roster should be getting PAs instead of a healthy Bruce?

Highlifeman21
09-05-2009, 01:34 PM
Who said anything about making this something the manager has to think about? Given how these players perform, it should be automatic that the LH bats play when the RH pitch and the RH Bats play when the LH pitch. The talent that this team possesses pretty much fits that plan. Only Bruce seems capable of more and if he gets hot and wins a full-time role, than Balentien can be dropped. But I don't want to see Bruce and Dickerson struggle to OPS .500 against LHP and I don't want Gomes out there unless he's a .900 OPS guy (which is only against LH). I'm ok with Stubbs when he has the platoon advantage, but IMO great defene isn't worth suffering with a drag on offense when there are reasonable options that can perform better without killing you defensively. At any rate, Dickerson and Stubbs should never be in the line-up at the same time and I really have no desire to see either in a corner OF spot unless its as an end of game defensive replacement.

If the Reds can get better players then the whole platoon thing can be abandoned. I don't think they can afford it though and whatever they do have should go towards another starter, a second catcher and a better SS. There are no reasonable internal options for those spots. At this point, I'm not even sure the Reds have room in the budget to bring Gomes back, so going with platoons is the best plan IMO.

This post just makes way too much sense to actually materialize before our eyes in 2010.

Spring~Fields
09-05-2009, 01:50 PM
It has nothing to do with enjoy or like or dislike or whatever. He's produced at a level of a league average player.

Could you help our understanding? What are you saying, that the performance of Bruce was at a level of "league average player" ?? What was it that he did, that produce those outcomes?

jojo
09-05-2009, 01:54 PM
Could you help our understanding? What are you saying, that the performance of Bruce was at a level of "league average player" ?? What was it that he did, that produce those outcomes?

His bat was roughly 6 runs below average but his glove was roughly 9 runs above average.

Falls City Beer
09-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Bruce is the Reds RFer next year. It's not certain that Wlad will even make the Reds organization next year.

I'm sure you're right. I'd like to think they'd keep Balentien around however. It's not like this organization has pop like his on every minor league roster.

REDblooded
09-05-2009, 02:06 PM
One thing that everybody ignores when talking about Bruce, which is VERY unfortunate, is his arm, and glove in RF... He was tied for the league lead in put-outs when he got hurt.

Spring~Fields
09-05-2009, 02:20 PM
His bat was roughly 6 runs below average but his glove was roughly 9 runs above average.

Thanks.

jojo
09-05-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm sure you're right. I'd like to think they'd keep Balentien around however. It's not like this organization has pop like his on every minor league roster.

He's got to make their 25 man roster to keep him around though (most likely) given he's out of options. I'm not sure he's developed enough to do that but his ceiling is high enough where some team would likely try to gobble him out on the cheap if given the chance.

Highlifeman21
09-05-2009, 02:53 PM
I'd like to see Balentien back for next year.

We certainly have worst options than him on this team and within the organization.

Falls City Beer
09-05-2009, 03:04 PM
He's got to make their 25 man roster to keep him around though (most likely) given he's out of options. I'm not sure he's developed enough to do that but his ceiling is high enough where some team would likely try to gobble him out on the cheap if given the chance.

I can't imagine a scenario where Balentien would be anything but among the 25 most talented and deserving players on this franchise next season. There's just no depth of talent anywhere in the organization.

Highlifeman21
09-05-2009, 03:13 PM
I can't imagine a scenario where Balentien would be anything but among the 25 most talented and deserving players on this franchise next season. There's just no depth of talent anywhere in the organization.

He's certainly the 2nd best OF on the club right now, no?

jojo
09-05-2009, 04:22 PM
He's certainly the 2nd best OF on the club right now, no?

If he is, there is serious trouble in Redsland.

WMR
09-05-2009, 05:42 PM
If he is, there is serious trouble in Redsland.

This is news? :D

Brutus
09-05-2009, 05:46 PM
I'm curious to know if this list includes active OF or all OF on the roster.

Highlifeman21
09-05-2009, 05:50 PM
If he is, there is serious trouble in Redsland.

Only Gomes is above Balentien right now IMO.

... then easily Stubbs, then Mayor McCheese is on the bottom.

When Nix comes back, then he'll probably be 3, with Stubbs being 3A.

Very sad team we have including the 40 man roster.

Highlifeman21
09-05-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm curious to know if this list includes active OF or all OF on the roster.

My list includes active roster.

Of the guys on the 40 man, including injuries, I go with:

Gomes
Balentien
Dickerson
Nix
Bruce
Stubbs
Mayor McCheese
Taveras

... and that's solely based on how they've played in 2009, not potential or career stuff or anything of that sort.

GAC
09-05-2009, 05:57 PM
If he is, there is serious trouble in Redsland.

You have to set your expectations lower. :D

I have no idea what level of OFer/player Wlad may become. And I certainly have no problems with him being given that opportunity either.

But how many of these players with the tools and "potential" come thru this organization in the last several years?

Brutus
09-05-2009, 06:00 PM
My list includes active roster.

Of the guys on the 40 man, including injuries, I go with:

Gomes
Balentien
Dickerson
Nix
Bruce
Stubbs
Mayor McCheese
Taveras

... and that's solely based on how they've played in 2009, not potential or career stuff or anything of that sort.

Oh OK.

I like that Balentien has improved his discipline since joining the Reds. If that can continue, he has the tools to be a real good outfielder. I put Stubbs higher than Dickerson and Nix though. Stubbs is carrying a better OPS. Granted, it's due to a power surge that is fueling the higher-than-usual slugging. But I think soon his OBP will pick up the slack for some of the loss in iso power. In terms of rates, he's carrying an average OPS for a CF but with a well above-average glove.

mth123
09-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Only Gomes is above Balentien right now IMO.

... then easily Stubbs, then Mayor McCheese is on the bottom.

When Nix comes back, then he'll probably be 3, with Stubbs being 3A.

Very sad team we have including the 40 man roster.

Dickerson and Bruce??

But this point can be expanded to all the position players on the roster. Count from 1 to 13. I think at least 6 if not 7 of the best 13 for next year's team will be OF.

1. Votto
2. Rolen
3. Phillips
4. Gomes
5. Dickerson
6. Hanigan
7. Bruce
8. Balentien
9. Stubbs
10. Janish
11. Nix???
12. Rosales???
13. Sutton???

After number 3, you run out of every day players. After number 6 you run out of certain major leaguers. After number 8 you reach guys who should probably be in AAA. Its why going with 6 OF next year isn't such a stretch. Its not like anybody they have to have is going to be bumped. This is the exercise that management may just use to justify holding on to Willy. I cringe at the thought.

jojo
09-05-2009, 06:41 PM
It's always amazing how quickly we fall in love around here especially this time of year..... :cool:

traderumor
09-05-2009, 06:46 PM
we're hopeless romantics

KoryMac5
09-05-2009, 08:08 PM
we're hopeless romantics

We have a bunch of Scranton 7's who turn out to be NY 6's.

Highlifeman21
09-06-2009, 01:27 PM
Dickerson and Bruce??

But this point can be expanded to all the position players on the roster. Count from 1 to 13. I think at least 6 if not 7 of the best 13 for next year's team will be OF.

1. Votto
2. Rolen
3. Phillips
4. Gomes
5. Dickerson
6. Hanigan
7. Bruce
8. Balentien
9. Stubbs
10. Janish
11. Nix???
12. Rosales???
13. Sutton???

After number 3, you run out of every day players. After number 6 you run out of certain major leaguers. After number 8 you reach guys who should probably be in AAA. Its why going with 6 OF next year isn't such a stretch. Its not like anybody they have to have is going to be bumped. This is the exercise that management may just use to justify holding on to Willy. I cringe at the thought.

Dickerson and Bruce are hurt, so I didn't factor them into the equation.

OnBaseMachine
09-06-2009, 04:38 PM
McDonald started over Balentien again today. Ugh. I don't get it.

fearofpopvol1
09-06-2009, 04:51 PM
McDonald started over Balentien again today. Ugh. I don't get it.

i told you before dude...wlad is not a crafty vet. until he is one, he's not going to play over mcdonald.

OnBaseMachine
09-07-2009, 12:27 PM
And once again, Darnell McDonald is starting over Wladimir Balentien today. Amazing. McDonald is 30 years old, he has no future with this club. Balentien is a 25 year old former top prospect who has played pretty good since coming over. He needs to be getting all the playing time he can get. Why even pick him up if you're not going to play him?

Highlifeman21
09-07-2009, 01:25 PM
And once again, Darnell McDonald is starting over Wladimir Balentien today. Amazing. McDonald is 30 years old, he has no future with this club. Balentien is a 25 year old former top prospect who has played pretty good since coming over. He needs to be getting all the playing time he can get. Why even pick him up if you're not going to play him?

This kinda got me thinking about Walt and The Dusty's relationship.

I'm working under the assumption that The Dusty wanted Willy Taveras, and Walt gave him what he wanted.

The Dusty's presumably played Willy Taveras all year, prior to injury, b/c The Dusty is playing "his" guy.

We added Wladimir Balentien to the mix, but I feel that was Walt's doing, and it's very possible that The Dusty liked his OF personnel (which would make little sense to me, but this is The Dusty we're talking about) and so he hasn't played Wlad due to the fact that Wlad isn't "his" guy.

... and IIRC, hasn't Walt said that he won't tell The Dusty whom to play?

Factor that in, and I can see where we have a problem where the GM's given the manager better players, but the manager won't play them b/c they aren't "his" guys.

Just some food for thought.

westofyou
09-07-2009, 01:34 PM
Conspiracy theories...

I say MacDonald is starting for his defense, Dusty is more concerned with protecting Homer with gloves than bats, Coors has a big OF.

OnBaseMachine
09-07-2009, 02:16 PM
Balentien is actually a decent fielder. He won't win any Gold Gloves but he's not bad either.

Spring~Fields
09-07-2009, 02:30 PM
And once again, Darnell McDonald is starting over Wladimir Balentien today. Amazing. McDonald is 30 years old, he has no future with this club. Balentien is a 25 year old former top prospect who has played pretty good since coming over. He needs to be getting all the playing time he can get. Why even pick him up if you're not going to play him?


Think of it as a carnival and Dusty is out front selling the tickets, you’ll feel better. Once you start walking through all the dusty mirrors, well, you eventually come to the end, and next year, you can start all over again. :) Just remember it is Dusty's show that you are paying to see.

LoganBuck
09-07-2009, 03:44 PM
Conspiracy theories...

I say MacDonald is starting for his defense, Dusty is more concerned with protecting Homer with gloves than bats, Coors has a big OF.

Darnell McDonald is never the answer.

Raisor
09-07-2009, 05:05 PM
Darnell McDonald is never the answer.

Unless the question is "who should get traded to Quebec for a roasted chicken breast sandwich from the Quebec Subway?"

11larkin11
09-07-2009, 05:40 PM
Unless the question is "who should get traded to Quebec for a roasted chicken breast sandwich from the Quebec Subway?"

I don't think Quebec would go for that. It would have to be a 5$ footlong sub.

_Sir_Charles_
09-07-2009, 06:47 PM
I don't think Quebec would go for that. It would have to be a 5$ footlong sub.

I run several Subway's down here in Houston. That IS a 5$ footlong sub...even in Canada. :O)


Concerning McDonald...I've never understood the complete and total lack of leniency on this board. Once a guy gets pegged with a bad rap...he's doomed to be pummelled mercilessly here. Yes, Darnell stunk up the joint during the beginning of the season. But ignore the name on the jersey for a second and look at his stats since his call-up. I've got ZERO problem with a guy playing occasionally who's playing solid-to-very good defense and swinging a +.300 bat. And this "Dusty's daughter" stuff got old a loooooong time ago with Patterson.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Continue with the Dusty/Darnell-bashing. :O)

Brutus
09-07-2009, 06:57 PM
I run several Subway's down here in Houston. That IS a 5$ footlong sub...even in Canada. :O)


Concerning McDonald...I've never understood the complete and total lack of leniency on this board. Once a guy gets pegged with a bad rap...he's doomed to be pummelled mercilessly here. Yes, Darnell stunk up the joint during the beginning of the season. But ignore the name on the jersey for a second and look at his stats since his call-up. I've got ZERO problem with a guy playing occasionally who's playing solid-to-very good defense and swinging a +.300 bat. And this "Dusty's daughter" stuff got old a loooooong time ago with Patterson.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Continue with the Dusty/Darnell-bashing. :O)

I have no problem with that either. For me though, my issue is that given the Reds' OF situation going into next year, where some decisions will have to be made on guys without options or outright assignments remaining, they need to get those players all the at-bats they can to help make a decision going into spring training.

mth123
09-07-2009, 07:12 PM
I have no problem with that either. For me though, my issue is that given the Reds' OF situation going into next year, where some decisions will have to be made on guys without options or outright assignments remaining, they need to get those players all the at-bats they can to help make a decision going into spring training.

I'm guessing they already know that Balentien is in the mix going into spring and nothing he does from here on out will win or lose the job for him.

I don't have a problem with D-Mc being in there today. The real problem is that even this minor league career player who is far enough down the depth chart that 4 OF have to be on the DL for him to even be considered still wasn't the worst hitter in there today. There were three line-up spots manned with even more feeble bats (the pitcher of course, the catcher and the SS who was hitting in the 2 hole of all things).

Brutus
09-07-2009, 07:20 PM
I'm guessing they already know that Balentien is in the mix going into spring and nothing he does from here on out will win or lose the job for him.

I don't have a problem with D-Mc being in there today. The real problem is that even this minor league career player who is far enough down the depth chart that 4 OF have to be on the DL for him to even be considered still wasn't the worst hitter in there today. There were three line-up spots manned with even more feeble bats (the pitcher of course, the catcher and the SS who was hitting in the 2 hole of all things).

I don't have a problem with his playing today, being his hometown. I think it's good for morale to get all your guys starts like this once in a while. I'm speaking more in general terms.

Balentien is in the mix heading into spring training, sure. Problem is, he has to make the roster or be traded or released. It's good to find everything you can about him as early as possible to help make the decision easier one way or another next spring.

mth123
09-07-2009, 07:26 PM
I don't have a problem with his playing today, being his hometown. I think it's good for morale to get all your guys starts like this once in a while. I'm speaking more in general terms.

Balentien is in the mix heading into spring training, sure. Problem is, he has to make the roster or be traded or released. It's good to find everything you can about him as early as possible to help make the decision easier one way or another next spring.

Agreed, but on the list of offenses, this charge is more like going 70 in a 55 than it is a capital offense. Now Stubbs bunt attempt today OTOH....

Brutus
09-07-2009, 07:28 PM
Agreed, but on the list of offenses, this charge is more like going 70 in a 55 than it is a capital offense. Now Stubbs bunt attempt today OTOH....

lol I'll agree with that. But I'd still issue the citation :thumbup:

westofyou
09-07-2009, 07:36 PM
One has to realize that Dusty threw MacDonald a bone today. He's from the area and it was his first pro game ever there... ever. He had family there, it was a big deal I would guess.

That was a bone, a players manager bone, one that could be defended with his glove, but not his bat, it was move that peeves fans but probably gets a lot of notice from the players. It's a morale thing, it's a people thing, it's the way Dusty gets guys on his side.

OnBaseMachine
09-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Hilarious quote (or I thought so) from VR in today's game thread:


McDonald getting the start because he is from Denver.

It's always a good way to pick your starting lineup....and fantastic news for Balentien, as he should finally get a lot of ab's when they play the Curacao Wildcats.

That made me laugh out loud.

Cooper
09-07-2009, 10:14 PM
That's really funny....i usually don't double post with the same opinion as the person before me, but that's good solid humor.

_Sir_Charles_
09-07-2009, 10:39 PM
I have no problem with that either. For me though, my issue is that given the Reds' OF situation going into next year, where some decisions will have to be made on guys without options or outright assignments remaining, they need to get those players all the at-bats they can to help make a decision going into spring training.

But everyone here keeps saying that the few AB's left in this season shouldn't be a deciding factor on who makes the club next year. You look at the whole body of work. So 3 weeks worth of a hot streak/cold streak shouldn't sway us into thinking Wlad or whoever is the better option. And for that matter, who's to say that the better option might not end up being Darnell. I doubt it...but you simply never know.

Brutus
09-07-2009, 10:41 PM
But everyone here keeps saying that the few AB's left in this season shouldn't be a deciding factor on who makes the club next year. You look at the whole body of work. So 3 weeks worth of a hot streak/cold streak shouldn't sway us into thinking Wlad or whoever is the better option. And for that matter, who's to say that the better option might not end up being Darnell. I doubt it...but you simply never know.

It shouldn't decide who gets the spots, but when you have to make financial decisions (Gomes) and roster decisions (Balentien), you want to have as much an opportunity as you can to see them play.

westofyou
09-07-2009, 11:26 PM
Guys don't have to be in the starting lineup to be evaluated. No matter whether he starts or not a player is being evaluated.

Brutus
09-08-2009, 01:10 AM
Guys don't have to be in the starting lineup to be evaluated. No matter whether he starts or not a player is being evaluated.

It's not as easy to evaluate a player collecting splinters in their behinds. I realize there's batting practice, fielding practice, batting cages, etc., but it's much better to watch them every day in live action then seeing them once every other or every third day.

Topcat
09-08-2009, 01:39 AM
Fire Dusty! Nuff said on that matter :thumbup:

westofyou
09-08-2009, 09:43 AM
It's not as easy to evaluate a player collecting splinters in their behinds. I realize there's batting practice, fielding practice, batting cages, etc., but it's much better to watch them every day in live action then seeing them once every other or every third day.

I was speaking about how they handle sitting too, not everyone is a starter, not everyone is a star, sometimes how a player handles that fact plays into the role that he might be evaluated for.

lollipopcurve
09-08-2009, 10:09 AM
Agree that all bench guys should get occasional starts, but let's not kid ourselves here. McDonald is Dusty's guy much more than other bench players have been this year. Janish was buried. Sutton has been underground for weeks. And these are guys in their mid-20s who may have some room to improve. The fact that Balentien is benched in favor of McDonald is no big deal if it's relatively rare, IMO. But if Darnell is getting a couple starts a week, and he's not hitting, it seems a case of misplaced favoritism. I like Darnell's story, his defense and the way he plays hard, but so far I have not liked his approach at the plate. Looks like a high fastball hitter, period. And as many have said, they have limited time to find out about Balentien, a kid with some actual upside.

lollipopcurve
09-08-2009, 10:11 AM
McDonald's last 25 ABs: 13 Ks, 1 BB

westofyou
09-08-2009, 10:15 AM
In the past 10 days Balentine has more starts than MacDonald.

But ya'll continue with the conspiracy theories, I like the Illuminati angle myself.

Not that I like MacDonald as a player, but I also like a good giggle.

lollipopcurve
09-08-2009, 10:22 AM
In the past 10 days Balentine has more starts than MacDonald.

But ya'll continue with the conspiracy theories, I like the Illuminati angle myself.

Balentien should have many more starts than McDonald. There really is no question that Darnell is getting more starts than the average bench guy gets under Baker. Not a conspiracy theory.

_Sir_Charles_
09-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Balentien should have many more starts than McDonald. There really is no question that Darnell is getting more starts than the average bench guy gets under Baker. Not a conspiracy theory.

I just don't get the complaining I guess. With the injuries, bench guys are going to get starts. Lately, Darnell has been hitting at a .300 clip and playing excellent defense. What's the reason again that he shouldn't be getting some starts? Oh right, he can't play. :rolleyes: Over the long haul, yeah, he's a bench player. But if someone's going well, you ride them. But favoritism...yeah, I'm not seeing that at all. The bench guys are playing if they're playing well, and who plays is determined by the matchups mostly. conspiracy theories indeed. Wlad is just the flavor of the month, once he hits a rough patch everyone here will be down on him too.

lollipopcurve
09-08-2009, 12:12 PM
I just don't get the complaining I guess. With the injuries, bench guys are going to get starts. Lately, Darnell has been hitting at a .300 clip and playing excellent defense. What's the reason again that he shouldn't be getting some starts? Oh right, he can't play. Over the long haul, yeah, he's a bench player. But if someone's going well, you ride them. But favoritism...yeah, I'm not seeing that at all. The bench guys are playing if they're playing well, and who plays is determined by the matchups mostly. conspiracy theories indeed. Wlad is just the flavor of the month, once he hits a rough patch everyone here will be down on him too.

Look, I like seeing the bench guys, underdogs, new faces and underappreciated get playing time more than most. I was very supportive of McDonald at the start of the year, even amidst complaining that he made the roster and started on Opening Day. I think Baker needs to use his bench and bullpen more flexibly than he does. But I try to remain objective, based on a player's performance, and Darnell has not been good. Going into yesterday, he was "riding" a 6-for-20 with 1 BB and 10 Ks. You can call that hot, or you can call that not. Now it's 6-23 with 13 Ks. He does not look any better, really, than he did in April, in my opinion. Meanwhile, there's a younger guy who has been playing *better* than McDonald who is out of options next year. The Reds need to figure out what they've got in Balentien, and the more ABs he gets this month, the better. I don't begrudge Darnell the occasional start -- as a matter of fact, I'm glad he got to start on his home turf yesterday. I won't mind if he gets another start in this series, either. After the long road he's trekked, he deserves some rewards. But as the season plays out, the team will will be better served by seeing Balentien out there at least 75% of the time, I think.

Bumstead
09-08-2009, 12:14 PM
Darnell McDonald is not a MLB bench player, he is a career minor leaguer and will again be in the minors next season. If it was me, I would play players that have a chance to be on the team next year and beyond, not players that don't. Conspiracy, nah...Dusty's just Dusty. He never plays favorites...oh there was Neifi, but...and there was Taveras leading off all year but...then Ramon Ramirez...but...it's not a theory, Dusty likes the old guys and makes sure they get their time. Unfortunately we aren't the Giants of the 90's....one should not be surprised as he has managed this way everywhere he has been. If Taveras comes off the DL, Dusty will play him at least half the time; might as well just sit back and enjoy it; it ain't changing as long as Dusty is the manager.

Bum

_Sir_Charles_
09-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Fair enough lollipopcurve.

As for my comment about him being hot...it's fairly obvious that it's come to a close IMO. The last 3 or 4 games have kind of shut the book on that hot streak.

I still haven't noticed any sort of favoritism from Dusty in regards to Darnell however.

redsmetz
09-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Darnell McDonald is not a MLB bench player, he is a career minor leaguer and will again be in the minors next season. If it was me, I would play players that have a chance to be on the team next year and beyond, not players that don't. Conspiracy, nah...Dusty's just Dusty. He never plays favorites...oh there was Neifi, but...and there was Taveras leading off all year but...then Ramon Ramirez...but...it's not a theory, Dusty likes the old guys and makes sure they get their time. Unfortunately we aren't the Giants of the 90's....one should not be surprised as he has managed this way everywhere he has been. If Taveras comes off the DL, Dusty will play him at least half the time; might as well just sit back and enjoy it; it ain't changing as long as Dusty is the manager.

Bum

I continue to suggest that Dusty being partial to "vets" is a myth, certainly not born out since he's been in Cincinnati. He's bent over backwards on some of our up and coming players to see they get playing time. It hasn't been perfect, but quite a number of them have. And to a good degree, circumstances have placed an older player in the line-up after various players have gone on the DL.

RedsManRick
09-08-2009, 01:59 PM
I continue to suggest that Dusty being partial to "vets" is a myth, certainly not born out since he's been in Cincinnati. He's bent over backwards on some of our up and coming players to see they get playing time. It hasn't been perfect, but quite a number of them have. And to a good degree, circumstances have placed an older player in the line-up after various players have gone on the DL.

I agree. You can understand nearly everything Dusty does when you simply realize he's an extreme player's manager. He manages the way he would have liked to be manage as a player. That means protecting young guys from situations they aren't comfortable with. It means giving "due" respect to "proven" players by sticking with them when they're struggling and making young players "earn" playing time. It means giving a career minor-leaguer a start in front of his family and friends. It means putting the outcome of today's game ahead of what might be best for the team in the long run.

Dusty is a player-manager who simply doesn't get to play anymore. Understand that mindset and the rest becomes clear.

Bumstead
09-08-2009, 02:10 PM
I agree. You can understand nearly everything Dusty does when you simply realize he's an extreme player's manager. He manages the way he would have liked to be manage as a player. That means protecting young guys from situations they aren't comfortable with. It means giving "due" respect to "proven" players by sticking with them when they're struggling and making young players "earn" playing time. It means giving a career minor-leaguer a start in front of his family and friends. It means putting the outcome of today's game ahead of what might be best for the team in the long run.

Dusty is a player-manager who simply doesn't get to play anymore. Understand that mindset and the rest becomes clear.

ah...and if it was just a start here and there nobody would care. Take your fist, pop yourself a couple time on the chest, say "respect" and there is Dusty...Taveras struggling?

I would ask what is better for these Cincinnati Reds: winning today or winning over the long haul? Of course if Dusty wins today he may save his buttocks for next season...too bad the Reds won't get any better for it.

Suffer The Dusty....it won't change. You are right, he is predictable; I just don't know why Red's fans should accept it as quality managing though? He has no business managing this type of team.

Bum

Spring~Fields
09-08-2009, 04:40 PM
I agree. You can understand nearly everything Dusty does when you simply realize he's an extreme player's manager. He manages the way he would have liked to be manage as a player. That means protecting young guys from situations they aren't comfortable with. It means giving "due" respect to "proven" players by sticking with them when they're struggling and making young players "earn" playing time. It means giving a career minor-leaguer a start in front of his family and friends. It means putting the outcome of today's game ahead of what might be best for the team in the long run.

Dusty is a player-manager who simply doesn't get to play anymore. Understand that mindset and the rest becomes clear.

How do we translate the intangible and the effects it has on the tangible, that is runs scored and the run differential over a given season? Time or a season ago you established that day to day lineups have a small effect on runs scored, but, over the entire season it can be a very large amount of runs scored. So how can one observe or make observations that indicate the effects of the reasoning that you express in understanding the motivations behind the decisions of the manager and its effect on the RS RA DIFF for the season? Can it be calculated and shown?

If I said, it doesn't matter who he plays today, or where they are in the lineup, but it does matter on the cumulative year. How do you discover that, and display the facts, if it can be done?

RedsManRick
09-08-2009, 05:36 PM
How do we translate the intangible and the effects it has on the tangible, that is runs scored and the run differential over a given season? Time or a season ago you established that day to day lineups have a small effect on runs scored, but, over the entire season it can be a very large amount of runs scored. So how can one observe or make observations that indicate the effects of the reasoning that you express in understanding the motivations behind the decisions of the manager and its effect on the RS RA DIFF for the season? Can it be calculated and shown?

If I said, it doesn't matter who he plays today, or where they are in the lineup, but it does matter on the cumulative year. How do you discover that, and display the facts, if it can be done?

Well, it's sort of a forest for the trees thing -- like small ball offense. Sure, you can add a nice little chunk of runs by taking the extra bas, hitting and running, and executing bunts at the right time. But at the end of the day, the amount of runs you score and allow is based on the fundamental core abilities of your players to get on base yourself while driving other guys around the bases as much as possible. Other offensive contributions are on the margins.

Great chemistry and rest won't turn Jerry Hairston in Mark DeRosa, Brandon Phillips in to Chase Utley, or Laynce Nix in to Ryan Ludwick.

If a manager was able to extract that level of change in performance, we would have seen it by now. Some manager would have demonstrated this ability clearly -- and it would show up in the numbers. It's been studied many times and it just doesn't show up. At the end of the day, the most influential thing a manager can do to affect his team's RS and RA is play the best guys.

GAC
09-08-2009, 05:38 PM
His managing style is like the old saying..... trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

RANDY IN INDY
09-08-2009, 05:39 PM
the most influential thing a manager can do to affect his team's RS and RA is play the best guys.

Agree, and it would help if the best guys were healthy.

RedsManRick
09-08-2009, 05:46 PM
His managing style is like the old saying..... trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Dusty's problem is less about the squeezing of the turnip than the picking up of the turnip to begin with. Give him a great team and he'll win with it. Let him decide what players to add and/or play and you end up with turnips.