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11larkin11
08-15-2009, 08:38 PM
Prior to tonight's game Adam Rosales received the Heart & Hustle Award from the Major League Baseball Players Alumni Association. Reds first base coach Billy Hatcher presented Rosales with a plaque...the annual award recognizes one player on each team who demonstrates a passion for and best embodies the values, spirit and traditions of the game. An overall MLB winner will be announced later this year.

-JM
http://redsintern.mlblogs.com/

reds44
08-15-2009, 08:39 PM
I lol'd.

joshnky
08-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Prior to tonight's game Adam Rosales received the Heart & Hustle Award from the Major League Baseball Players Alumni Association. Reds first base coach Billy Hatcher presented Rosales with a plaque...the annual award recognizes one player on each team who demonstrates a passion for and best embodies the values, spirit and traditions of the game. An overall MLB winner will be announced later this year.

-JM
http://redsintern.mlblogs.com/

When you're competition is the rest of the players on this team it is hardly an honor.

WMR
08-15-2009, 09:02 PM
The Heart and Hustle Award sounds like the award they give in youth leagues to all the most horrible players. :lol:

UKFlounder
08-15-2009, 09:07 PM
You've got a mantle-full, I'm guessing :p:


The Heart and Hustle Award sounds like the award they give in youth leagues to all the most horrible players. :lol:

dabvu2498
08-15-2009, 09:08 PM
The Heart and Hustle Award sounds like the award they give in youth leagues to all the most horrible players. :lol:

Last year's winners:

2008 National League Finalists
Arizona Diamondbacks: Stephen Drew
Atlanta Braves: Yunel Escobar
Chicago Cubs: Geovany Soto
Cincinnati Reds: Jerry Hairston, Jr.
Colorado Rockies: Clint Barmes
Florida Marlins: Dan Uggla
Houston Astros: Hunter Pence
Los Angeles Dodgers: Russell Martin
Milwaukee Brewers: Corey Hart
New York Mets: David Wright
Philadelphia Phillies: Chase Utley
Pittsburgh Pirates: Matt Capps
San Diego Padres: Adrian Gonzalez
San Francisco Giants: Randy Winn
St. Louis Cardinals: Albert Pujols
Washington Nationals: Jesus Flores

2008 American League Finalists
Baltimore Orioles: Nick Markakis
Boston Red Sox: Jacoby Ellsbury
Chicago White Sox: Joe Crede
Cleveland Indians: Grady Sizemore
Detroit Tigers: Curtis Granderson
Kansas City Royals: David DeJesus
Los Angeles Angels: Torii Hunter
Minnesota Twins: Mike Redmond
New York Yankees: Derek Jeter
Oakland Athletics: Jack Cust
Seattle Mariners: Ichiro Suzuki
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Jonny Gomes
Texas Rangers: Ian Kinsler
Toronto Blue Jays: Vernon Wells

CrackerJack
08-15-2009, 09:08 PM
This is kind of like the "most improved" trophy I got on the swim team in 6th grade.

Although that actually had some meaningful value, as it wasn't just an award based on me runnning to my lane spot every time I was up. I actually got better at something.

Tom Servo
08-15-2009, 09:10 PM
I lol'd.
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/funny-pictures-kitten-shoe-loled.jpg

WMR
08-15-2009, 09:13 PM
Last year's winners:

2008 National League Finalists
Arizona Diamondbacks: Stephen Drew
Atlanta Braves: Yunel Escobar
Chicago Cubs: Geovany Soto
Cincinnati Reds: Jerry Hairston, Jr.
Colorado Rockies: Clint Barmes
Florida Marlins: Dan Uggla
Houston Astros: Hunter Pence
Los Angeles Dodgers: Russell Martin
Milwaukee Brewers: Corey Hart
New York Mets: David Wright
Philadelphia Phillies: Chase Utley
Pittsburgh Pirates: Matt Capps
San Diego Padres: Adrian Gonzalez
San Francisco Giants: Randy Winn
St. Louis Cardinals: Albert Pujols
Washington Nationals: Jesus Flores

2008 American League Finalists
Baltimore Orioles: Nick Markakis
Boston Red Sox: Jacoby Ellsbury
Chicago White Sox: Joe Crede
Cleveland Indians: Grady Sizemore
Detroit Tigers: Curtis Granderson
Kansas City Royals: David DeJesus
Los Angeles Angels: Torii Hunter
Minnesota Twins: Mike Redmond
New York Yankees: Derek Jeter
Oakland Athletics: Jack Cust
Seattle Mariners: Ichiro Suzuki
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Jonny Gomes
Texas Rangers: Ian Kinsler
Toronto Blue Jays: Vernon Wells


The Heart and Hustle Award sounds like the award they give in youth leagues to all the most horrible players. :lol:

lollipopcurve
08-15-2009, 09:22 PM
Congrats to Rosales.

I swear, this board sometimes sounds like a bunch of bitter misanthropes.

mth123
08-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Rosales has looked awful and awkward in 2009, but I'm withholding judgement. His history shows him as a guy who struggles to adjust to a new level and after a year starts tearing it up. I don't think he's going to be a star, but I would not be surprised if he turns out to be a competent semi-regular player who gives a decent AB, has a little pop and can play multiple spots without hurting the defense.

Congrats to him.

CrackerJack
08-15-2009, 09:47 PM
Congrats to Rosales.

I swear, this board sometimes sounds like a bunch of bitter misanthropes.

The lost, 1990's Bengals-like decade might have something to do with that.

I hope Rosales improves and becomes a worthy roster inclusion at some point.

But let's face it, he's kind of silly and won an award for it.

edabbs44
08-15-2009, 09:57 PM
Trying is bad, I guess.

GADawg
08-15-2009, 10:39 PM
really guys...Rosales is one of the few reasons I've been able to keep watching this trainwreck

Highlifeman21
08-15-2009, 11:30 PM
really guys...Rosales is one of the few reasons I've been able to keep watching this trainwreck

Rosales keeps you watching?

Really?

Raisor
08-16-2009, 12:01 AM
The Scrappy Award.

Awe.Some.

Surprised it's not the "dirty uniform" award.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 12:58 AM
Last year's winners:

2008 National League Finalists
Arizona Diamondbacks: Stephen Drew
Atlanta Braves: Yunel Escobar
Chicago Cubs: Geovany Soto
Cincinnati Reds: Jerry Hairston, Jr.
Colorado Rockies: Clint Barmes
Florida Marlins: Dan Uggla
Houston Astros: Hunter Pence
Los Angeles Dodgers: Russell Martin
Milwaukee Brewers: Corey Hart
New York Mets: David Wright
Philadelphia Phillies: Chase Utley
Pittsburgh Pirates: Matt Capps
San Diego Padres: Adrian Gonzalez
San Francisco Giants: Randy Winn
St. Louis Cardinals: Albert Pujols
Washington Nationals: Jesus Flores

2008 American League Finalists
Baltimore Orioles: Nick Markakis
Boston Red Sox: Jacoby Ellsbury
Chicago White Sox: Joe Crede
Cleveland Indians: Grady Sizemore
Detroit Tigers: Curtis Granderson
Kansas City Royals: David DeJesus
Los Angeles Angels: Torii Hunter
Minnesota Twins: Mike Redmond
New York Yankees: Derek Jeter
Oakland Athletics: Jack Cust
Seattle Mariners: Ichiro Suzuki
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Jonny Gomes
Texas Rangers: Ian Kinsler
Toronto Blue Jays: Vernon Wells

How would these lineups stack up against our Reds?

HeatherC1212
08-16-2009, 01:05 AM
Congrats to Adam for winning this award tonight! :)

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 08:55 AM
Does Freel have any of these on his mantle?

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2009, 09:17 AM
These days, it is a sin to hustle. It must mean you have no talent.:rolleyes:

Chip R
08-16-2009, 09:27 AM
It's not exctly the MVP award but it's something. Some good players on that list from last year.

For those of you who want to mock Rosales, be reminded that MLB has other awards for things that aren't exactly related to performance. The Fred Hutchinson Award and I believe there is a Roberto Clemente Award as well.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 09:32 AM
These days, it is a sin to hustle. It must mean you have no talent.:rolleyes:

Yeah, but when hustle is your only talent?

nate
08-16-2009, 10:22 AM
Congrats to Rosales.

I swear, this board sometimes sounds like a bunch of bitter misanthropes.

Uncalled for.

I'm not bitter!

:cool:

Roy Tucker
08-16-2009, 10:59 AM
I like the way Adam plays in that he "plays the game the way its supposed to be played". Heart, hustle, scrap.

I just wish he was a better player. Too bad he doesn't have the matching talent.

NJReds
08-16-2009, 11:00 AM
Yeah, but when hustle is your only talent?

You're right. He made it to the major leagues because he sprints to his position. No talent whatsoever. Please.

He's no All-Star, but there are a lot of guys in the minors who will never see a major league field.

Congrats to Rosales.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 11:06 AM
When I saw this, I knew it would fuel the long-running RedsZone tensions between Cincinnatians' love for West Side blue-collar Pete Rose scrappiness and data-driven win-share talents.

GAC
08-16-2009, 11:25 AM
"You like me! You really, really like me!"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kjG3eKpdkTY/SZ9eQRWpVdI/AAAAAAAAAnc/7FX1cHkLvoU/s400/top8.jpg

Big Klu
08-16-2009, 01:11 PM
Does Freel have any of these on his mantle?

Yes, he does. According to George last night, prior Reds winners include Jerry Hairston Jr., Ryan Freel, and Adam Dunn.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 01:13 PM
Yes, he does. According to George last night, prior Reds winners include Jerry Hairston Jr., Ryan Freel, and Adam Dunn.

Now there's a scrappy little dude.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 01:29 PM
You're right. He made it to the major leagues because he sprints to his position. No talent whatsoever. Please.

He's no All-Star, but there are a lot of guys in the minors who will never see a major league field.

Congrats to Rosales.

He just doesn't have major league talent.

That's all I'm sayin'.

He's got major league scrap and hustle, but he just doesn't have a major league offensive skillset. His defense is marginal for a major leaguer, IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Rosales may not be a star, but I bet he has a nice little career for himself. When players of similar ability are vying with him for a job, he will get those jobs a lot of times because of the hustle and the way he conducts himself. One thing I have noticed about Rosales is that he has a much stronger arm than I had thought. Gets some zip on the balls across the infield. Will probably never be an everyday player but I bet he has a nice career as a utility player.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 03:58 PM
Rosales may not be a star, but I bet he has a nice little career for himself. When players of similar ability are vying with him for a job, he will get those jobs a lot of times because of the hustle and the way he conducts himself. One thing I have noticed about Rosales is that he has a much stronger arm than I had thought. Gets some zip on the balls across the infield. Will probably never be an everyday player but I bet he has a nice career as a utility player.

Why not see if Rosales can play 2B and Phillips play SS?

I think Rosales could be serviceable as a 2B, but as a 3B or SS I think he doesn't have enough bat or glove to stick on a MLB roster.

reds44
08-16-2009, 04:36 PM
Rosales doesn't have enough bat to stick anywhere.

kaldaniels
08-16-2009, 05:17 PM
My take on this award is that it unfortunately helps legitimize Rosales as a MLB player...something at this stage in his career I don't think he is.

Ron Madden
08-16-2009, 06:44 PM
Rosales may not be a star, but I bet he has a nice little career for himself. When players of similar ability are vying with him for a job, he will get those jobs a lot of times because of the hustle and the way he conducts himself. One thing I have noticed about Rosales is that he has a much stronger arm than I had thought. Gets some zip on the balls across the infield. Will probably never be an everyday player but I bet he has a nice career as a utility player.

I think Rosales is a fine utility player. The problem is he plays everyday.

savafan
08-16-2009, 07:02 PM
These days, it is a sin to hustle. It must mean you have no talent.:rolleyes:

People seem to forget a 22 year old 2nd baseman who came up to this team back in 1963. Didn't have a whole lot of natural talent, but he played his butt off. Think he won the rookie of the year award that year. Of course, his OPS was only .705, so that means he really wasn't a major league caliber hitter as we all know. I wonder what happened to him?

nate
08-16-2009, 07:08 PM
People seem to forget a 22 year old 2nd baseman who came up to this team back in 1963. Didn't have a whole lot of natural talent, but he played his butt off. Think he won the rookie of the year award that year. Of course, his OPS was only .705, so that means he really wasn't a major league caliber hitter as we all know. I wonder what happened to him?

I think those same "people" realize that in 1963, Pete Rose hit .273 in 600 odd ABs. Adam Rosales is hitting .211 in 184. Rose also OPS+ 101 in a much smaller talent pool. Rosales, a cool 64 in a much larger talent pool.

Chip R
08-16-2009, 07:09 PM
People seem to forget a 22 year old 2nd baseman who came up to this team back in 1963. Didn't have a whole lot of natural talent, but he played his butt off. Think he won the rookie of the year award that year. Of course, his OPS was only .705, so that means he really wasn't a major league caliber hitter as we all know. I wonder what happened to him?

He went to prison.

savafan
08-16-2009, 07:17 PM
I think those same "people" realize that in 1963, Pete Rose hit .273 in 600 odd ABs. Adam Rosales is hitting .211 in 184. Rose also OPS+ 101 in a much smaller talent pool. Rosales, a cool 64 in a much larger talent pool.

I'm not saying that minor league numbers always translate to major league ability, but perhaps those same "people" would be surprised to know that Rosales has a career minor league line of .289/.364/.491 and a career minor league OPS of .855 in 1662 at bats. There may be some talent there that hasn't been able to come out in a scattered 184 ABs.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 07:18 PM
He went to prison.

It was like the Ron LeFlore story in reverse.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 07:27 PM
People seem to forget a 22 year old 2nd baseman who came up to this team back in 1963. Didn't have a whole lot of natural talent, but he played his butt off. Think he won the rookie of the year award that year. Of course, his OPS was only .705, so that means he really wasn't a major league caliber hitter as we all know. I wonder what happened to him?

He bet on baseball, got thrown out of baseball, and is now fighting/begging to get into the HOF?

savafan
08-16-2009, 07:32 PM
He bet on baseball, got thrown out of baseball, and is now fighting/begging to get into the HOF?

Right. My point is, and it should be obvious, sometimes in this game, guys come along that don't necessarily have the natural talent to succeed, yet by their drive and desire, they excel despite their skill level. Pete Rose was one of those. I'd say Kirby Puckett was another. Rosales may be one of those guys. We can't really tell from 184 ABs. His minor league numbers look good. He plays hard, but I don't view him as someone who plays recklessly a la Ryan Freel, someone who is going to continue finding his way to the DL due to his hard play. Rosales looks to me like someone who, while scrappy and hustling, also knows how to play smart baseball. I know his defense is lacking at times, but the kid tries so hard, he may just get it on desire alone.

Tom Servo
08-16-2009, 07:38 PM
He went to prison.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3515/3827381503_a7d8691388.jpg

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 07:50 PM
I agree that Rosales deserves to find his role, which might be a useful one, but many here fear that we fall in love too easily with this kind of player. One of the big reasons for getting Rolen, even on the downside of his career, was from being tired of so many flawed project players. Finally, a pure professional who knows what he's doing out there.

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2009, 08:40 PM
I think Rosales is a fine utility player. The problem is he plays everyday.

That is hardly his fault, or Dusty's fault for that matter, yet folks continue to bash on him. Injuries have caused him to play much more than he would have ever got to play, otherwise. It may be a good thing, as there is nothing left to lose in this season. His added experience this season may prove to be a very valuable puzzle piece for the bench, next season, if the Reds can do some work over the off-season and put a few quality pieces in place.

But then again........................ all that might just get in the way of a good ol' redszone bash.

GAC
08-16-2009, 08:40 PM
Right. My point is, and it should be obvious, sometimes in this game, guys come along that don't necessarily have the natural talent to succeed, yet by their drive and desire, they excel despite their skill level. Pete Rose was one of those. I'd say Kirby Puckett was another. Rosales may be one of those guys. We can't really tell from 184 ABs. His minor league numbers look good. He plays hard, but I don't view him as someone who plays recklessly a la Ryan Freel, someone who is going to continue finding his way to the DL due to his hard play. Rosales looks to me like someone who, while scrappy and hustling, also knows how to play smart baseball. I know his defense is lacking at times, but the kid tries so hard, he may just get it on desire alone.

All the above is true. But IMO, even if given the time, he still ain't gonna morph into a player anywhere near a Pete Rose just because he hustles.

And Pete Rose didn't look like Lewis. :p:

savafan
08-16-2009, 08:49 PM
All the above is true. But IMO, even if given the time, he still ain't gonna morph into a player anywhere near a Pete Rose just because he hustles.



I don't expect we'll ever see a player anywhere near a Pete Rose, but Rosales could still be a good to very good major leaguer. :)

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 08:56 PM
I don't expect we'll ever see a player anywhere near a Pete Rose, but Rosales could still be a good to very good major leaguer. :)

Playing what position?

savafan
08-16-2009, 08:58 PM
Playing what position?

Where he's most needed. That may not be the same position year after year.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 09:01 PM
Where he's most needed. That may not be the same position year after year.

How many no stick utilitymen do you know that are good major leaguers?

Typically good major leaguers have a set position or two, rather than all over the IF, and possibly some OF.

I'm not saying he's not versatile or useful off the bench as a warm body, but IMO Rosales isn't a starting caliber major leaguer.

savafan
08-16-2009, 09:02 PM
I'm not saying he's not versatile or useful off the bench as a warm body, but IMO Rosales isn't a starting caliber major leaguer.

You're basing your opinion on 184 ABs. What's that term we like to throw around here? Oh yeah, small sample size.

nate
08-16-2009, 09:23 PM
You're basing your opinion on 184 ABs. What's that term we like to throw around here? Oh yeah, small sample size.

The problem is, he plays for the offensively challenged Reds. Can they afford to give him the remaining 400 or so ABs we'd need to see an OK sample size?

He's an OK guy to have on the bench...and when I say on the bench, I'm talking single cheek here.

He could make a deal with the devil in the offseason, I suppose.

:cool:

savafan
08-16-2009, 09:26 PM
The problem is, he plays for the offensively challenged Reds. Can they afford to give him the remaining 400 or so ABs we'd need to see an OK sample size?



They lose without him in the lineup, they can just as easily lose with him in the lineup.

We cry about trading Zach Stewart, like we just dealt the next John Smoltz, while he's done absolutely nothing at the major league level. We have already confirmed that Adam Rosales isn't a major league hitter after 184 at bats.

Sometimes I have to ask myself, if so many of us are such great judges of talent, why aren't we working in baseball instead of posting on a message board?

Chip R
08-16-2009, 09:41 PM
We cry about trading Zach Stewart, like we just dealt the next John Smoltz, while he's done absolutely nothing at the major league level. We have already confirmed that Adam Rosales isn't a major league hitter after 184 at bats.


When he was called up he was treated like the love child of Chris Denofria and Jim Coombs. He was hitting .380 in LOU. The point is that we overvalue our minor leaguers because we haven't seen them play every day. Once we do, our judgement tends to be harsher because they don't live up to the hype.

savafan
08-16-2009, 09:43 PM
When he was called up he was treated like the love child of Chris Denofria and Jim Coombs. He was hitting .380 in LOU. The point is that we overvalue our minor leaguers because we haven't seen them play every day. Once we do, our judgement tends to be harsher because they don't live up to the hype.

It's like an epidemic among Reds' fans.

Ron Madden
08-16-2009, 10:05 PM
That is hardly his fault, or Dusty's fault for that matter, yet folks continue to bash on him. Injuries have caused him to play much more than he would have ever got to play, otherwise. It may be a good thing, as there is nothing left to lose in this season. His added experience this season may prove to be a very valuable puzzle piece for the bench, next season, if the Reds can do some work over the off-season and put a few quality pieces in place.

But then again........................ all that might just get in the way of a good ol' redszone bash.

I'm not bashing Rosales. I just don't believe he has enough talent to play everyday.

osuceltic
08-16-2009, 10:28 PM
The problem is, he plays for the offensively challenged Reds. Can they afford to give him the remaining 400 or so ABs we'd need to see an OK sample size?



I don't know. Jay Bruce seems to be on scholarship.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 10:55 PM
You're basing your opinion on 184 ABs. What's that term we like to throw around here? Oh yeah, small sample size.

He hasn't shown me anything in 184 ABs that I like about his offensive game, and I don't see him magically improving or changing his plate approach or things of that nature to become a different guy with a bat.

He needs to be a different guy with a bat than who he currently is, wouldn't you say?

savafan
08-16-2009, 11:18 PM
He hasn't shown me anything in 184 ABs that I like about his offensive game, and I don't see him magically improving or changing his plate approach or things of that nature to become a different guy with a bat.

He needs to be a different guy with a bat than who he currently is, wouldn't you say?

After the aliens come, all Adam will have to do is say "Shazam," and he'll turn into Captain Marvel. You'll see a different plate approach then, just be patient.

Patrick Bateman
08-17-2009, 03:15 AM
They lose without him in the lineup, they can just as easily lose with him in the lineup.

We cry about trading Zach Stewart, like we just dealt the next John Smoltz, while he's done absolutely nothing at the major league level. We have already confirmed that Adam Rosales isn't a major league hitter after 184 at bats.

Sometimes I have to ask myself, if so many of us are such great judges of talent, why aren't we working in baseball instead of posting on a message board?

I don't know how you can post things like this, but then at the same time, scoff at people who suggest that based on an entire minor league career of being "not sufficient for the major leagues", that Justin Lehr is suddenly a viable rotation candidate because he's posted 3 decent results based starts. It's just completely inconsistent logic.

savafan
08-17-2009, 08:17 AM
I don't know how you can post things like this, but then at the same time, scoff at people who suggest that based on an entire minor league career of being "not sufficient for the major leagues", that Justin Lehr is suddenly a viable rotation candidate because he's posted 3 decent results based starts. It's just completely inconsistent logic.

I'm not saying Justin Lehr is a viable rotation candidate, all I'm saying is give a guy a chance to prove whether he is or not before declaring that he isn't.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 09:22 AM
These days, it is a sin to hustle. It must mean you have no talent.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately zero people have made that argument.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Unfortunately zero people have made that argument.

Really?

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Really?

Yep.

nate
08-17-2009, 11:17 AM
Really?

Really.

Hustle is a nice garnish.

Talent is the meal.

kaldaniels
08-17-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm all for giving Lehr his shot for now...heck he's getting the job done.

Rosales on the other hand is not. His stats tell the story. He is often made to look silly at the plate when facing a good pitcher (way more often than he should...we know everyone will get fooled from time to time). Are we really advocating giving this guy 600 ABs to see if he can stick...cause for me he just doesn't pass the eyeball test, and his stats back that up.

On the other hand, if we need him to fill in the rest of the year due to injuries thats fine...but if the objective is to see how well Rosales will fair in the bigs, I think he's answered that question for us. I'm not knocking his hustle either, but at some point there needs to be a hint of production. Could he eventually improve, sure...but as soon as possible get him back in the minors where he belongs.

Other than the fact that Pete Rose hustled and had an OPS of .705 his rookie year (Rosales is at .606 for his career by the way), what merits Rosales getting 600 ABs in the big leagues?

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 12:17 PM
Really.

Hustle is a nice garnish.

Talent is the meal.

Anything wrong with the expectation of both?

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 12:18 PM
Yep.

Things must look and sound different in "Dogpatch" than they do in my neck of the woods.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm all for giving Lehr his shot for now...heck he's getting the job done.

Rosales on the other hand is not. His stats tell the story. He is often made to look silly at the plate when facing a good pitcher (way more often than he should...we know everyone will get fooled from time to time). Are we really advocating giving this guy 600 ABs to see if he can stick...cause for me he just doesn't pass the eyeball test, and his stats back that up.

On the other hand, if we need him to fill in the rest of the year due to injuries thats fine...but if the objective is to see how well Rosales will fair in the bigs, I think he's answered that question for us. I'm not knocking his hustle either, but at some point there needs to be a hint of production. Could he eventually improve, sure...but as soon as possible get him back in the minors where he belongs.

Other than the fact that Pete Rose hustled and had an OPS of .705 his rookie year (Rosales is at .606 for his career by the way), what merits Rosales getting 600 ABs in the big leagues?

Nothing justifies giving Rosales a full season worth of playing time and PAs.

He's not an everyday player.

That's not to say he couldn't be a useful player off the bench, but he's not a useful player as an everyday option.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 12:23 PM
Anything wrong with the expectation of both?

If you're expecting both from Rosales, you're just gonna end up with parsley stuck in your teeth, and an empty stomach.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 12:34 PM
If you're expecting both from Rosales, you're just gonna end up with parsley stuck in your teeth, and an empty stomach.

Depends on what you are expecting from him. I think you and I must be expecting two different things. He is not an everyday player right now, and probably won't ever be, and I have made that point several times. He can be a valuable utility player as he can play multiple positions. He has been overwhelmed with big league pitching as the season has progressed. Big league pitching can expose you at times, regardless of your talent, as Jay Bruce can attest. It can cause a young player to press and Rosales looks quite unsure of himself at the plate right now. Major League baseball is all about making adjustments and that can be really tough the first time around. I still think he has some ability and can be a decent role player. I don't think that is a stretch, by any means.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 12:38 PM
Things must look and sound different in "Dogpatch" than they do in my neck of the woods.

The argument is and always has been: hustle is nice, talent is better. Also, that you possess one skill set doesn't mean you'll posses the other (i.e. plenty of guys who have talent don't hustle while others hustle but have no talent).

Whether you see or hear that is up to you. Apparently you don't.

Eric_the_Red
08-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Rosales should only be on a ML roster as the 25th man, a option to fill in off the bench (rarely).

Nothing against him or his hustle. I like to see players hustle, especially on ground balls, but I also like to see talent more. Also, seeing him sprinting around the bases after a homerun was kind of like watching the slow kid laugh at himself because he didn't realize the other kids were laughing AT him, not WITH him. A bit embarrassing.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Also, seeing him sprinting around the bases after a homerun was kind of like watching the slow kid laugh at himself because he didn't realize the other kids were laughing AT him, not WITH him. A bit embarrassing.

And here you've hit on the key element that those who get week in the knees over "hustle" miss when we dig on ARo.

Running around the bases like a jackass after a home run means zero, zip, nada when it comes to wining baseball games. But it's exactly the kind of faux-hustle that some folks (many in Cincy) lap up like thirsty dogs. Running in from your position and lapping your team mates does nothing to put ones and zeros on the board.

Assuming you have the base talent, what does matter is running as hard (and smart) as you can on the base-paths. What does matter is being heads-up and taking advantage of the other teams mental mistakes. What does matter is going after every ball like it's the 9th inning of the world series. What does help win baseball games is studying film, working out, taking extra practice, etc. That's the real, honest-to-goodness hustle. The kind that matters.

Believe it or not, it's is fully possible to do all of the things in the second paragraph without doing anything in the first.

And that's the part a lot of casual fans, and especially fans in Cincy miss. You can work your hiney off and give 100% without doing all the "showy" stuff that both doesn't matter and looks bush-league.

BCubb2003
08-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Also, seeing him sprinting around the bases after a homerun was kind of like watching the slow kid laugh at himself because he didn't realize the other kids were laughing AT him, not WITH him. A bit embarrassing.

Then that's something he does have in common with Pete Rose. "Charlie Hustle" was a derisive name given to him by Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 01:00 PM
Depends on what you are expecting from him. I think you and I must be expecting two different things. He is not an everyday player right now, and probably won't ever be, and I have made that point several times. He can be a valuable utility player as he can play multiple positions. He has been overwhelmed with big league pitching as the season has progressed. Big league pitching can expose you at times, regardless of your talent, as Jay Bruce can attest. It can cause a young player to press and Rosales looks quite unsure of himself at the plate right now. Major League baseball is all about making adjustments and that can be really tough the first time around. I still think he has some ability and can be a decent role player. I don't think that is a stretch, by any means.

Based on what I said previously, I think we're on the same page...


Nothing justifies giving Rosales a full season worth of playing time and PAs.

He's not an everyday player.

That's not to say he couldn't be a useful player off the bench, but he's not a useful player as an everyday option.

While I appreciate his hustle, I wish Rosales had more substance (read: talent) to go with that hustle.

His hustle almost seems to make up for his lack of talent (read: talent to be an everyday player). That's where my frustration lies with Rosales. It's like his hustle has convinced the FO to promote him to the MLB level, only to expose the fact that he lacks the talent to stick on a MLB roster.

NJReds
08-17-2009, 01:55 PM
It's like his hustle has convinced the FO to promote him to the MLB level, only to expose the fact that he lacks the talent to stick on a MLB roster.

I don't know. This FO has shown that they'll put players on the field that lack the talent to be on a MLB roster whether or not they hustle.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 01:56 PM
I don't know. This FO has shown that they'll players on the field that lack the talent to be on a MLB roster whether or not they hustle.

Well played.

This FO has also recently shown that they'll overpay to keep a lack of talent on the MLB roster.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 03:10 PM
Sorry, didn't finish the post before I accidently hit enter. Full post on page 3.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 03:18 PM
You really seem to think that Rosales is a "jackass" as you put it, because he runs around the bases after hitting a homerun. Why do you have a problem with that?

I'm just going to ignore your comment about Roberto. If you can't see a difference between the two players then we've got far bigger issues to solve than discussing hustle.

Why do I have a problem with the post homer sprint? My answer to you is the same as it always has been. BECAUSE IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS. It accomplishes nothing. It does zero to help your team win the ball game. And frankly, it's borderline showboating, especially from a player who's accomplished nothing in his short MLB carer. I'm surprised a pitcher hasn't drilled him yet for it.

Same with sprinting in from your position. It's fluff. Window dressing. It means nothing.

It irks me because some lug-nut fan always falls for it. "Look how much he cares!". Meanwhile, he could have overslept, missed batting practice and played cards in the clubhouse before he sprinted onto the field.

There's nothing wrong with hustle. But give me hustle that matters. Being a spaz doesn't mater.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm just going to ignore your comment about Roberto. If you can't see a difference between the two players then we've got far bigger issues to solve than discussing hustle.

Why do I have a problem with it? My answer to you is the same as it always has been. BECAUSE IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS. It accomplishes nothing. It does zero to help your team win the ball game. And frankly, it's borderline showboating, especially from a player who's accomplished nothing in his short MLB carer. I'm surprised a pitcher hasn't drilled him yet for it.

Same with sprinting in from your position. It's fluff. Window dressing. It means nothing.

It irks me because some lug-nut fan always falls for it. "Look how much he cares!". Meanwhile, he could have overslept, missed batting practice and played cards in the clubhouse before he sprinted onto the field.

There's nothing wrong with hustle. But give me hustle that matters. Being a spaz doesn't mater.You're dating yourself with the "spaz" reference. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 03:39 PM
The argument is and always has been: hustle is nice, talent is better. Also, that you possess one skill set doesn't mean you'll posses the other (i.e. plenty of guys who have talent don't hustle while others hustle but have no talent).

Whether you see or hear that is up to you. Apparently you don't.

Hustle is not a skill set. It's something that every player is capable of and it should be expected.

You really seem to think that Rosales is a "jackass" as you put it, because he runs around the bases after hitting a homerun. Why do you have a problem with that? I watched Roberto Clemente sprint around the bases after hitting a homerun in the 1971 All-Star Game. I guess, based on your logic that you consider Clemente, and all those players who used to get around the bases in a respectable time frame as "jackasses" as well. I grew up watching Major League players that had enough pride to hustle all the time and to respect the game and their teammates. Didn't cost them a dime. Personally, I don't like seeing a player dropping the bat and standing to watch when they think they have hit a homer and end up on first instead of second when it doesn't get out of the park. Totally selfish act. Totally bush league. Totally shows up the pitcher when it is out of the park. They deserve one in the ribs the next time at bat. I don't see anything wrong with sprinting out of the box on every ball put into play so that you get the extra base when it presents itself. If you don't hustle out of the box, it doesn't happen, and we've seen players make a "jackass" out of themselves this season because they didn't. I had a player, this season, not run out of the box on a fly ball to right, right fielder dropped the ball and it resulted in the player getting called out at first on a very bad call. I really was not upset about the player getting called out. He came back to the dugout and was complaining about the call. I basically looked at the kid and said, "If you would have ran out of the box like you are supposed to, there wouldn't have been a call." That is not "faux-hustle." I know a lot of college coaches that expect their players to run on and off the field. It gives more emphasis to what they expect when the game begins. Don't be lazy when you are on a baseball field. Are major leaguers to fragile to do it? Tough thing, running on and off the field. (And no, it doesn't have to be at a sprinters pace)

I guess you consider me a casual fan because I appreciate and expect hustle at the major league level. It isn't a skill. It's all about effort. These guys don't get to the big leagues without talent. I see nothing bush league about hustle. A lot of players don't, these days. There is plenty of "bush league" going on in the game today and never once have I considered hustling as part of it.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 03:49 PM
Personally, I don't like seeing a player dropping the bat and standing to watch when they think they have hit a homer and end up on first instead of second when it doesn't get out of the park.

Yea, where exactly did I propose that was a good idea?

That I feel sprinting around the bases post homer by a lack-luster rookie is showboating doesn't mean I advocate standing and watching your fly ball either. So I'm really not sure what you're getting at.


I don't see anything wrong with sprinting out of the box on every ball put into play so that you get the extra base when it presents itself.

Yea, me neither. In fact, I said so in an earlier post. Then again it gets to the heart of my issue. Sprinting when it matters is good and admirable. Sprinting when it's not required and only window-dressing? Totally garbage.


It's all about effort.

I agree. Problem is you can't tell a thing about a player's true effort by how fast he runs in from his position can you? You can make assumptions, but ultimately it tells you zero about how hard that player actually works.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 03:56 PM
I'm just going to ignore your comment about Roberto. If you can't see a difference between the two players then we've got far bigger issues to solve than discussing hustle.

Why do I have a problem with the post homer sprint? My answer to you is the same as it always has been. BECAUSE IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS. It accomplishes nothing. It does zero to help your team win the ball game. And frankly, it's borderline showboating, especially from a player who's accomplished nothing in his short MLB carer. I'm surprised a pitcher hasn't drilled him yet for it.

Same with sprinting in from your position. It's fluff. Window dressing. It means nothing.

It irks me because some lug-nut fan always falls for it. "Look how much he cares!". Meanwhile, he could have overslept, missed batting practice and played cards in the clubhouse before he sprinted onto the field.

There's nothing wrong with hustle. But give me hustle that matters. Being a spaz doesn't mater.

Had nothing to do with whether Rosales compares to Clemente in any way. Fact is, Roberto was sprinting out of the box instead of standing, watching, and was nearly to third base when the ball got into the stands. He was playing the game the right way and I guess he decided to continue around the bases at the pace he was going. He slowed a little but not much.

What do you think of the slow homerun trots and standing and watching the ball in the box? Is that showboating? Do they deserve one in the ribs next time up?

So Rosales is a "spaz" because of his hustling style of play? I have never suggested that he be a starter at the big league level, but I sure don't hate his hustle enough to call him that? That's real nice. He looks to me like a kid who is never going to be a star but really enjoys and respects the game and tries to play it the right way every time he is on the field. I don't have a problem with that. I wish more players would treat the game the same way.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Problem is you can't tell a thing about a player's true effort by how fast he runs in from his position can you? You can make assumptions, but ultimately it tells you zero about how hard that player actually works.

I can usually tell a lot about a player if he is lazy in his habits on the field. When I was coaching college kids, I could tell a lot about what they did the night before by the way they were not running on and off the field. Doesn't take much for "lazy" to creep into a players game. Doesn't take much for them to think they are better than they really are. Doesn't take much for them to start to lose focus and give away "at-bats" or plays in the field. When you are with players, day in and day out, it isn't hard to see the signs, and types of things that add up to a bad work ethic and just going through the motions. The very, very talented ones can get away with it, but they are certainly the very small minority and it will catch up with them at some point. Nearly everyone hits the wall at some point. The talented players with the good work ethic are usually the ones that can get through it.

dsmith421
08-17-2009, 04:07 PM
Hustle is not a skill set. It's something that every player is capable of and it should be expected.

Yep. But that's really the manager's job, in my opinion, because 99% of the time the fan has no idea whether a ballplayer is giving his best effort.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:11 PM
Hustle is the manager's job? Enforcing it should be, but he can't hustle for them. Not really that hard for me to see when a guy is "dogging" it.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:13 PM
Problem is that manager's in today's game have very little power over players who have guaranteed contracts and are making so much more than they are. Much different than it used to be.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 04:19 PM
I can usually tell a lot about a player if he is lazy in his habits on the field.

I don't have the highly trained eagle-eye of a youth baseball coach, however, I too can tell a lot about a player if he is lazy in his habits on the field. Things like constantly swinging at pitches in the dirt, taking bad routes to fly balls, hitting the wrong cutoff man, routinely muffing throws usually are a big clue. Those are the guys who are "playing the game the wrong way".

Running to/from your position? Not so much.

dsmith421
08-17-2009, 04:25 PM
Not really that hard for me to see when a guy is "dogging" it.

Oh, really?

Sorry, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Egregious cases of ball watching or laziness, sure, okay.

But the vast majority of the time a fan/casual observer has no clue what a player's "max effort" is for that given day. It's like the idiots who railed on Griffey for not diving for balls, well, he can't because his hamstring will detach from his leg and bounce around like a superball.

By contrast, Dusty ought to know this stuff and ought to take action against players who don't hustle. Of course, he doesn't, because he's full of crap.

gonelong
08-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Hustle is a lot like being polite. It doesn't cost anything, everyone could do it, you'd rather see it than not. However, if a guy is peeing on your shoes and says "Excuse me", I just don't care about how polite the guy is. Him being polite doesn't really tell me what I need to know about the guy.

GL

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't have the highly trained eagle-eye of a youth baseball coach

Ahhh, touche'.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:46 PM
If you think that college coaches and professional scouts do not notice the “little things” you are mistaken. As one coach told me …. “We have to pay attention to each of the intangibles, it is the only real separator between some of these guys.” He went on to explain that each recruiting year they will have several players on their board that are essentially equal in athletic skills and ability. What then makes the difference is the “Little Things.”

So the next time you think that it doesn’t matter how you hustle or present yourself maybe you should revisit that part of your game. As another coach told me … “A player can hustle and give his maximum effort even on a day when he and/or his team is not playing their best game. It doesn’t take any athletic ability to hustle.”

You Never Know Who Is Watching

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 04:58 PM
Interesting thoughts from former Arizona State coach, Jerry Kindall.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Dg9dtA2DRAC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=jerry+kindall+hustle+in+baseball&source=bl&ots=hl6j3zh359&sig=8yJUZ7RlDIfpWiYDXRHYGX_3S5A&hl=en&ei=-bWJSp2EOuOttgf49q3IDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

osuceltic
08-17-2009, 05:04 PM
Randy, just give up. You'll never win this one. I can't believe it either, but that's RedsZone.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 05:06 PM
Randy, just give up. You'll never win this one. I can't believe it either, but that's RedsZone.

Yeah, I know this.;) I must remember who I am trying to convince, and in the scheme of things, the people I need to convince are the players that I coach. The joy of it all and the most important thing is the guys I have coached that have made it to bigger and better things that have sent me a note or came back and told me that the things that I told them, really did matter.

*BaseClogger*
08-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Yep, that's RedsZone... :lol:

dsmith421
08-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Randy, just give up. You'll never win this one. I can't believe it either, but that's RedsZone.

You're either not paying attention or willfully distorting the argument. No one is saying hustle is not important. If I have a choice between two guys of equal talent, one of whom behaves like Rosales and the other like Phillips I'll take Rosales every day of the week. However, given their respective talent levels, I'll deal with Phillips' sporadic lapses because he's a million times better at hitting and fielding a baseball.

nate
08-17-2009, 05:30 PM
You're either not paying attention or willfully distorting the argument.

Both.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 05:48 PM
You're either not paying attention or willfully distorting the argument.

Probably a bit of both.

osuceltic
08-17-2009, 05:48 PM
You're either not paying attention or willfully distorting the argument. No one is saying hustle is not important. If I have a choice between two guys of equal talent, one of whom behaves like Rosales and the other like Phillips I'll take Rosales every day of the week. However, given their respective talent levels, I'll deal with Phillips' sporadic lapses because he's a million times better at hitting and fielding a baseball.

Nope. No one -- certainly not Randy -- is disputing the importance of talent.

Bumstead
08-17-2009, 06:52 PM
I just have to ask: how many 25th men do we need on the Reds? I count 4-6 at this point and, maybe I'm off-base here, but playoff teams and winning teams generally only carry 1 25th-man, right?

I like Rosales' hustle and versatility, but c'mon, the talent just isn't there. 25th man? probably. "Very good MLB player?" uhhhh no. Congrats on the award! It was such a terrible game that maybe that was the hi-light of the night...

Bum

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 07:10 PM
Nope. No one -- certainly not Randy -- is disputing the importance of talent.

But what he is doing is overstating the importance of unnecessary hustle for show.

Sure, bust it between the lines. Run hard out of the box (if Rosales puts it in play). Get that extra base if it presents itself.

But what purpose does it serve to run to and from your position between innings?

The only reason I did it and my teammates did it (grew up playing with the same kids from K thru 10) was to be the 1st one to get back to the sunflower seeds and the gatorade.

Playing C, I had the upperhand as to being the 1st one back to the dugout, so I always had seeds.

I've seen where hustle gets players into trouble just as much as it rewards them. Player going 1st to 3rd on a play, only to get waved home b/c he's hustling and then subsequently gunned down? Player trying to score on a passed ball b/c he's "hustling", only to make an out b/c he didn't have the wheels to score, only the hustle.

Hustle's a double-edged sword in my book.

Great to have when used properly and timely. But, it's a distant 2nd in my book to talent.

savafan
08-17-2009, 07:20 PM
Are we actually arguing this? Man, watching the Reds all these years has begun to make us baseball retarded.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 07:22 PM
But what he is doing is overstating the importance of unnecessary hustle for show.

Sure, bust it between the lines. Run hard out of the box (if Rosales puts it in play). Get that extra base if it presents itself.

But what purpose does it serve to run to and from your position between innings?

The only reason I did it and my teammates did it (grew up playing with the same kids from K thru 10) was to be the 1st one to get back to the sunflower seeds and the gatorade.

Playing C, I had the upperhand as to being the 1st one back to the dugout, so I always had seeds.

I've seen where hustle gets players into trouble just as much as it rewards them. Player going 1st to 3rd on a play, only to get waved home b/c he's hustling and then subsequently gunned down? Player trying to score on a passed ball b/c he's "hustling", only to make an out b/c he didn't have the wheels to score, only the hustle.

Hustle's a double-edged sword in my book.

Great to have when used properly and timely. But, it's a distant 2nd in my book to talent.

Nobody is arguing that hustle is more important than talent. No reason that you can't have both.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 07:23 PM
Nobody is arguing that hustle is more important than talent. No reason that you can't have both.

You just need talent combined with smart hustle, not hustle for the sake of hustle.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 07:24 PM
What is hustle for the sake of hustle?

savafan
08-17-2009, 07:27 PM
What is hustle for the sake of hustle?

I run from my car into Kroger and then run back to my car when I leave. It's just to show up all the senior citizens. Hustle for the sake of hustle. ;)

westofyou
08-17-2009, 07:30 PM
What is hustle for the sake of hustle?

Little league?

Beer softball with the keg at 3rd?

Hustle is great, I think we all know that it doesn't replace talent, folks can love a guy with no talent who doesn't hustle, they can hate a guy with talent who doesn't hustle, they can not give a rats behind if he hustles out to his position as long as he hustles while in-between the lines.

Hustle goes best with muscle, no hustle and you're not scrappy, no muscle and often your scrappy turns into crappy.

It's the crappy that scares us all.

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 07:32 PM
I would really enjoy watching players "slug" on and off the field. The games are too long as is. Maybe they could bring back the batting helmet carts and cart them on and off to their positions.

nate
08-17-2009, 07:33 PM
I say, the number of games the Reds would've won with more talent is a whole number between 1 and 50.

The number of games the Reds would've won with more hustle from it's existing talent is a fraction between 0 and 1.

And I'm not discounting hustle. Rather, I'm saying that I believe professional athletes are, by their nature, about as driven as possible in the first place. That they do hustle the vast majority of the time. They do want to win. They all have heart.

Sure, maybe we can point to a handful of times where so and so didn't hustle. In the scheme of things, that's a few times in an almost immeasurable number of events that occur both inside and outside the baselines.

A lapse in effort every now and then, especially on a losing team, I can understand. That doesn't mean I like it, but I understand it.

So give me a team of the vastly talented cats with a handful of lapses over a team of guys whose heart is bigger than their ability every day of the week.

I'll enjoy the wins while the other guys inspire "Rudy."

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 07:39 PM
Give me a team full of talented players who buy into the team concept, play the game the right way, hustle and play a spirited and esciting brand of baseball and I'll take my chances.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 07:43 PM
What is hustle for the sake of hustle?

Ltlabner covered it well.

It's the wool pulled over Reds fans eyes so we can't see the lack of talent on this ballclub.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Ltlabner covered it well.

It's the wool pulled over Reds fans eyes so we can't see the lack of talent on this ballclub.

Thank you sir.

Additionally it's the concept foisted upon us that goofy things like running to your position are really, really important. When the reality is they have nothing to do with winning baseball games and are merely a genuflect in the direction of tradition and a hold-over from our little-league days.

I'm curious, and this is an honest question, what irritates the hustle crowd more? That Dusty doesn't enforce an "always sprint to your position" rule or that the Reds obviously spend little, if any, time working on fielding drills, throwing to the right cut-off guy and how to steal a base?

Chip R
08-17-2009, 08:03 PM
Ltlabner covered it well.

It's the wool pulled over Reds fans eyes so we can't see the lack of talent on this ballclub.


I think even the biggest Pete Rose fans can see that guys like Rosales are not the answer no matter how much they hustle. We're initially drawn to these guys because we think they are the next Rose. But we're usually smart enough to see if they are legit. For the last couple of years people said that the fans would cry bloody murder if he were traded. But that never really happened. No one's really going to have a fit if Rosales doesn't make the team next year as long as the guy who replaces him has less talent.

I think Reds fans would take 25 players who played the game like Manny Ramirez if the team won. And they would stay away if they had 25 Rosaleses and they lost.

HeatherC1212
08-17-2009, 08:39 PM
I shouldn't be surprised that a simple note about one of the Reds players winning a nice award would turn into an eight page debate about talent and hustle (among other things) but yet here I sit wondering how in the world this thread got so long in such a short amount of time. :eek: :laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 08:59 PM
I have been in the middle of this thing from almost the beginning and at no time have I ever suggested that Adam Rosales is an everyday player, or that hustle trumps talent. The thing that I have suggested is that hustle is a wonderful thing when it is combined with talent. It is also a wonderful thing when a player that might not have superstar ability. hustles and plays the game the right way. Good things are more apt to happen. I have never said that "sprinting to your position is the "end all be all of hustle." I don't condone walking on and off the field. It isn't goofy. It is sluggish, to say the least, and it does project an attitude that is what I would consider "un-healthy" for a baseball team. I don't know that I am a part of the "hustle" crowd as Ltabner calls it. I am part of the crowd that likes to see baseball played correctly, regardless of a person's talent. There are some things that should never come into question and hustle is one of them. Anyone can do it. It is not just a "goofy" hold-over from Little League days. That might be a misconception of those who didn't play past that level. High school and college coaches, for the most part, demand it. As far as the working on fielding drills, throwing to the right cut-off guy and how to steal a base? I'm glad you are at all the afternoon pre-game workouts, Ltabner, to know that they aren't working on all these things. Do I think teams should take infield/outfield before games? Absolutely. Repetition, repetition, repetition.............

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 09:16 PM
I am part of the crowd that likes to see baseball played correctly, regardless of a person's talent.

So if you saunter to the plate, take a goodly number of pitches, smack a drive over the wall and jog around the bases that is playing the game "incorrectly"?

Or if you make a stellar web-gem of a defense play to end an inning (and prevent runs from scoring) but merely trot back to the dugout you've not "played the game the way is was meant to be played?

Or if you spend hours and hours working with the coaches, studying film and in the cage and finally (after many many failed attempts) drive that low & away off-speed pitch for a game winning hit, but you failed to sprint to your position earlier in the game you've somehow let the fans down?

Simply put that is silly. That's the boss that yells at the sales-guy for having a dirty car when he just got the million dollar order.


That might be a misconception of those who didn't play past that level.

Tracy Jones played the game too, dontcha know.

Listen, I don't think we're as far apart as you do. We both agree talent is king right? We both agree that we want players to give 100% between the lines and play hard/smart baseball right?

The only sticking point really is the concept that non-related activities like sprinting to your position, running to first on a walk, running out/back from your position and having your own personal track meet post homer have anything to do with scoring runs or avoiding outs.

So perhaps you, as the well versed coach, can provide to us the direct causal link between these activities and winning baseball games?

jojo
08-17-2009, 09:24 PM
I could give a rip about "hustle".

I respect hard work-during the game and during practice. Hustle is a cosmetic construct that presumably encompasses work ethic but includes other stuff completely unrelated to hard work though many mistake them for work ethic. For instance, meaningless motion such as running to and from a position between innings or sprinting to first after ball four. All to often "hustle" is used as a metric for work ethic or dedication. IMHO, it's one of the silliest ways a coach can evaluate a player. This is especially so because 100 people might define hustle differently.

Is it pretty? Sure. Is it necessarily indicative of what many might assume it demonstrates? I'd suggest most often, no.

GAC
08-17-2009, 09:29 PM
Ltlabner covered it well.

It's the wool pulled over Reds fans eyes so we can't see the lack of talent on this ballclub.

True. But you wouldn't believe the number of fans who watch and attend games who love those guys who are out there running into walls, diving to catch balls, getting their uniforms dirty, and sacrificing their bodies. Totally unreal.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 10:00 PM
I have been in the middle of this thing from almost the beginning and at no time have I ever suggested that Adam Rosales is an everyday player, or that hustle trumps talent. The thing that I have suggested is that hustle is a wonderful thing when it is combined with talent. It is also a wonderful thing when a player that might not have superstar ability. hustles and plays the game the right way. Good things are more apt to happen. I have never said that "sprinting to your position is the "end all be all of hustle." I don't condone walking on and off the field. It isn't goofy. It is sluggish, to say the least, and it does project an attitude that is what I would consider "un-healthy" for a baseball team. I don't know that I am a part of the "hustle" crowd as Ltabner calls it. I am part of the crowd that likes to see baseball played correctly, regardless of a person's talent. There are some things that should never come into question and hustle is one of them. Anyone can do it. It is not just a "goofy" hold-over from Little League days. That might be a misconception of those who didn't play past that level. High school and college coaches, for the most part, demand it. As far as the working on fielding drills, throwing to the right cut-off guy and how to steal a base? I'm glad you are at all the afternoon pre-game workouts, Ltabner, to know that they aren't working on all these things. Do I think teams should take infield/outfield before games? Absolutely. Repetition, repetition, repetition.............

So if a player doesn't sprint to and from his position and the beginning and end of each 1/2 inning, they are sluggish, playing the game unhealthy and the wrong way?

RANDY IN INDY
08-17-2009, 11:03 PM
I've stated my position on this, over and over. The answer to your question is at the end of the second post on page 3.

Patrick Bateman
08-17-2009, 11:16 PM
I don't see what guys find so objectionable about Randy's post.

He's made it very clear that talent is the most important factor in being successful.

Why is it so taboo to want players to try to make the most of their abilities. Obviously there is a lot behind the scenes that would go unnoticed if you simply looked at hustling to first as the end all be all to work ethic.

But that's not what Randy is saying. You guys are mostly making strawman arguments here. He isn't saying that Dunn isn't a hustler because he doesn't run to his position, or because Griffey and his broken legs don't allow him to run hard that he does not have strong work ethic.

The suggestion here is that there is no reason that players can't be running out their groundballs, pop flys, sliding to break up DP's and giving their 100% on the field all the time. Rosales does standout for those reasons, that on the field, it's hard to suggest that he's not going to get the most of the skills he does bring to the table. None of these particular tasks are difficult to do, so why don't more players do them? In the end, everyone, even Randy agress that these are at best secondary attributes to look for in a player.

But at the same time, there is no good excuse not to try your hardest at all times, no matter how insignificant it may seem.

Big Klu
08-17-2009, 11:20 PM
I don't have a horse in this race, but as an outside observer this is what I see:

11Larkin11 started a thread to congratulate Rosales for winning an award. That he won this award is an incontrovertible FACT.

The comments deriding Rosales, and belittling the award began almost immediately. It was even compared to the Little League award given to the worst player (so that he is given some kind of trophy). This is in spite of the fact that the award is given by the MLB Alumni Association, and other award-winners from last year included Albert Pujols, Chase Utley, Adrian Gonzalez, David Wright, Derek Jeter, Ichiro Suzuki, Grady Sizemore, Curtis Granderson, Torii Hunter, and Nick Markakis. (They must be a bunch of losers, too.) The awards committee evidently feels that Rosales is the Red who best embodies the ideals of the award. So if you must take umbrage with someone, the MLBAA is your huckleberry.

Big Klu
08-17-2009, 11:21 PM
I don't see what guys find so objectionable about Randy's post.

He's made it very clear that talent is the most important factor in being successful.

Why is it so taboo to want players to try to make the most of their abilities. Obviously there is a lot behind the scenes that would go unnoticed if you simply looked at hustling to first as the end all be all to work ethic.

But that's not what Randy is saying. You guys are mostly making strawman arguments here. He isn't saying that Dunn isn't a hustler because he doesn't run to his position, or because Griffey and his broken legs don't allow him to run hard that he does not have strong work ethic.

The suggestion here is that there is no reason that players can't be running out their groundballs, pop flys, sliding to break up DP's and giving their 100% on the field all the time. Rosales does standout for those reasons, that on the field, it's hard to suggest that he's not going to get the most of the skills he does bring to the table. None of these particular tasks are difficult to do, so why don't more players do them? In the end, everyone, even Randy agress that these are at best secondary attributes to look for in a player.

But at the same time, there is no good excuse not to try your hardest at all times, no matter how insignificant it may seem.

Adam Dunn won this award three years ago.

Highlifeman21
08-18-2009, 01:27 AM
I don't have a horse in this race, but as an outside observer this is what I see:

11Larkin11 started a thread to congratulate Rosales for winning an award. That he won this award is an incontrovertible FACT.

The comments deriding Rosales, and belittling the award began almost immediately. It was even compared to the Little League award given to the worst player (so that he is given some kind of trophy). This is in spite of the fact that the award is given by the MLB Alumni Association, and other award-winners from last year included Albert Pujols, Chase Utley, Adrian Gonzalez, David Wright, Derek Jeter, Ichiro Suzuki, Grady Sizemore, Curtis Granderson, Torii Hunter, and Nick Markakis. (They must be a bunch of losers, too.) The awards committee evidently feels that Rosales is the Red who best embodies the ideals of the award. So if you must take umbrage with someone, the MLBAA is your huckleberry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Rf0URZfLQ

You tell the MLBAA that I'm comin', and Hell's comin' with me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynKoZD-sFi4

Ron Madden
08-18-2009, 04:30 AM
I believe that Everyone in this thread agrees that Talent trumps Hustle.

Some folks are so busy arguing they just can't see that.

:)