PDA

View Full Version : Cueto



Kc61
08-16-2009, 12:24 AM
What's the problem with this guy?

Discuss.

LvJ
08-16-2009, 12:40 AM
Pretty dominate up until June 20th.

He's giving up A LOT of home runs.

In fact, 11 of them in his last 10 starts.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2009, 01:01 AM
What's the problem with this guy?

Discuss.

The space above his head. Really normal for young guys, but surprising that (I feel) he has been rushed to the majors by a franchise that is so desparate for pitching that any warm body will do. Witness what we've done over the last few years. A losing franchise wants to win. The pitching has been horrible so we hitch our wagon to anyone who appears to have potential and rush them to the majors to avoid spending the bucks for real MLB talent.

Ah, those days of yesteryear when real talent was brought to the Reds to shore up a position. Of course, they ignored the farm system, but...Compare that to today when we see akid get hot in AAA or even AA and all of a sudden they can play here. Not. Cueto is in that group. Not ready? You got it. No time to mature in the Reds system. Witness Jay Bruce. All the potential in the world, but forced into the majors by a talentless team. He's stuggled and I fear it will stunt him. Same with Cueto.

Well, you asked :).

The Baumer
08-16-2009, 01:13 AM
What's the problem with this guy?

Discuss.

He is a Cincinnati Red.

Razor Shines
08-16-2009, 03:08 AM
He is a Cincinnati Red.

That is a great FCB impression. Who else can you do?

Caveat Emperor
08-16-2009, 03:10 AM
That is a great FCB impression. Who else can you do?

Unless you're looking for a summer vacation from the board, I'd knock it off.

As to the topic at hand -- I think sending Cueto to winter ball was a huge mistake.

Razor Shines
08-16-2009, 03:14 AM
Unless you're looking for a summer vacation from the board, I'd knock it off.

.

??

What's with the literary beat down? His post was made in jest and so was mine. I realize it's probably not as funny as I thought it was but I don't think it hurt anyone's feelings. I'll be sure to keep my serious face on when I post from now on. :(

Brutus
08-16-2009, 03:35 AM
The space above his head. Really normal for young guys, but surprising that (I feel) he has been rushed to the majors by a franchise that is so desparate for pitching that any warm body will do. Witness what we've done over the last few years. A losing franchise wants to win. The pitching has been horrible so we hitch our wagon to anyone who appears to have potential and rush them to the majors to avoid spending the bucks for real MLB talent.

Ah, those days of yesteryear when real talent was brought to the Reds to shore up a position. Of course, they ignored the farm system, but...Compare that to today when we see akid get hot in AAA or even AA and all of a sudden they can play here. Not. Cueto is in that group. Not ready? You got it. No time to mature in the Reds system. Witness Jay Bruce. All the potential in the world, but forced into the majors by a talentless team. He's stuggled and I fear it will stunt him. Same with Cueto.

Well, you asked :).

Though he did take a rather expedited trip through the minors, I'm not sure he was 'rushed.' He's shown the ability to not be overmatched, but rather, overmatch hitters. I think he was ready. I think his problems are simply having to do with inconsistency. You'll get that from any young player. Even had he spent another year or two in the minors, he'd still likely be in the same situation. It's a learning curve. Few players will hit the big leagues and dominate the entire season.

It's easy to blame management for everything. But in this case, let's call a spade a spade - Cueto simply has to pitch more effectively more often.

Topcat
08-16-2009, 03:48 AM
Cueto is fine. I think many starters on the Red's try to be to perfect due to the offense lacking any real punch. The kid has done great as far as I am concerned in yr 1 as a MLB player.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 07:52 AM
Shut. Him. Down.

No winter ball, either.

RedLegSuperStar
08-16-2009, 07:56 AM
Shut. Him. Down.

No winter ball, either.

Exactly

Chip R
08-16-2009, 08:04 AM
I disagree about shutting him down. Let him go out there and pitch if he's healthy. He's not going over 4 innings anyway. Who knows, he may find out what the trouble is pitchng in one of these meaningless games.

I think it's a mechanical problem. And I don't think Dick Pole is the guy to fix him. I'd also let him pitch in winter ball - if healthy. Maybe Soto or someone else can fix him.

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2009, 08:10 AM
And I don't think Dick Pole is the guy to fix him.

And I think you are on to something.

jojo
08-16-2009, 08:35 AM
From the game thread last evening:


Since 6/20 he's done this:

ERA=8.29, FIP=6.01, K/9=7.7, BB/9=4.14.

I don't think it's so much his head as this: strike%=59.

He's went a prolonged spell without his plus command.

The Reds are hopefully working hard on figuring out why his command is going south.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 09:02 AM
I'd just like to see some accountability. The questions need to be asked in public. Pitching coach, what's up with Cueto? Hitting coach, why isn't this team hitting? Even if the answer is, "What can you do with these knuckleheads..." General manager, why is team full of knuckleheads?

lollipopcurve
08-16-2009, 09:06 AM
Use the changeup more.

Get a new pitching coach.

JaxRed
08-16-2009, 09:11 AM
Don't know what his problem is. But he needs to solve it at AAA. The Reds are now officially squandering his non-arbitration contract years.

GAC
08-16-2009, 10:31 AM
I disagree about shutting him down. Let him go out there and pitch if he's healthy. He's not going over 4 innings anyway. Who knows, he may find out what the trouble is pitchng in one of these meaningless games.

I think it's a mechanical problem. And I don't think Dick Pole is the guy to fix him. I'd also let him pitch in winter ball - if healthy. Maybe Soto or someone else can fix him.

I agree. Why shut a pitcher down if there is nothing wrong physically with them? This is the time where they need to watch him pitch and try to find/correct whatever he is doing wrong. If it's mechanical, or even in his head, you can't do that if he's sitting on the bench.

And Johnny is a competitor. If it is in his head, then you could simply screw him up more by shutting him down.

These are issues that have to be worked through. I personally thing it's an endurance issue too.

westofyou
08-16-2009, 11:29 AM
Little guy, maybe he's always going to have a hard road late in the season, down the road? In the humidity too.

Maybe he's on a Tom Gordon path

Spring~Fields
08-16-2009, 11:49 AM
From the game thread last evening:
He's went a prolonged spell without his plus command.

How's does that happen?
I never did know and probably never will but does anyone know how that happens?

jojo
08-16-2009, 11:55 AM
How's does that happen?
I never did know and probably never will but does anyone know how that happens?

Mechanics, injury, fatigue...

For a guy like Cueto who rode plus command like a rocket through their system, it's got to be a cause for pause.

Keep in mind this is a bit of a blanket statement but those with the time ought to be watching tape and him very closely IMHO.

RedsManRick
08-16-2009, 11:55 AM
He's 23 and learning to deal with handling pressure, pitching without his best stuff, etc.. We're a bad team with or without him. No use in sending him down to let him dominate AAA. Let him continue to learn in the majors, so long as he's fully healthy. He'll be better off for it down the road.

If he's not fully healthy, get him off the mound. My biggest concern with him is that he wants it so badly he'll throw until his arm falls off if they let him.

I wonder if the Reds do the same sort of strength testing, etc. that they do in Boston and elsewhere.

BCubb2003
08-16-2009, 12:07 PM
It seems to me that a lot of good young pitchers dominate in the minors, throwing hard with good command. When they get to the majors, they start the way they always have, but sooner or later they're going to have a bad outing, get knocked out in the fourth inning, whatever. It's the majors after all. So they start to nibble, they lose their command, the coaches tell them to not throw as hard to improve their command, they get hit more often, they nibble more, now they have neither command nor velocity.

The coaches need a way to reboot a young pitcher. Just telling him, "Trust your stuff" isn't enough.

Kc61
08-16-2009, 12:23 PM
According to Enquirer blog, Cueto is being skipped next turn.

Falls City Beer
08-16-2009, 01:12 PM
I seriously doubt winter ball has had any impact on his current performance.

Falls City Beer
08-16-2009, 01:14 PM
Little guy, maybe he's always going to have a hard road late in the season, down the road? In the humidity too.

Maybe he's on a Tom Gordon path

Thinking the same thing.

Oh, and MLB starting is hard. Really hard.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 01:29 PM
I seriously doubt winter ball has had any impact on his current performance.

You don't think those winter ball innings have anything to do with him hitting a wall now?

Falls City Beer
08-16-2009, 01:33 PM
You don't think those winter ball innings have anything to do with him hitting a wall now?

Not at all.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Not at all.

Any particular reason?

Seems to me since he never really got an extended break from 2008 to 2009, he's now showing signs of wear from continued use, which can't be good for his mechanics.

Falls City Beer
08-16-2009, 01:48 PM
Any particular reason?

Seems to me since he never really got an extended break from 2008 to 2009, he's now showing signs of wear from continued use, which can't be good for his mechanics.

So few innings. He probably got more wear on his arm from carrying stuff around his house this offseason.

I think he's short and probably doesn't take offseason conditioning very seriously. That's my theory.

VR
08-16-2009, 02:53 PM
Pitch calling/ strategy
Cabeza

Not necessarily in that order.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 02:56 PM
So few innings. He probably got more wear on his arm from carrying stuff around his house this offseason.

I think he's short and probably doesn't take offseason conditioning very seriously. That's my theory.

And the Reds as a whole don't seem all that well conditioned at all, so I tend to agree with your assessment.

GADawg
08-16-2009, 06:09 PM
And the Reds as a whole don't seem all that well conditioned at all, so I tend to agree with your assessment.

I couldn't watch today...playing golf and taping golf....5th embarrassing place takes a back seat today...anyway i WAS listening and I guess it was Mercker who was pointing to the fact that Cueto had cut down on his walks and therefore was throwing more fat pitches...I dunno does that make sense?

Highlifeman21
08-16-2009, 06:46 PM
I couldn't watch today...playing golf and taping golf....5th embarrassing place takes a back seat today...anyway i WAS listening and I guess it was Mercker who was pointing to the fact that Cueto had cut down on his walks and therefore was throwing more fat pitches...I dunno does that make sense?

Sure, you'll cut down on walks if you're leaving it over the plate.

Less walks, more hits given up.

OnBaseMachine
08-16-2009, 09:27 PM
He's worn out from winter ball, IMO. When you pitch almost year around for two straight years, it's going to eventually catch up to you, no matter how big or small you are. I'd skip his next start and then shut him down in September. Oh, and absolutely no winter ball this year.

OnBaseMachine
08-17-2009, 01:22 AM
Something, though, needs to be done with Cueto, who obviously has a tired arm after pitching 174 innings last year, then winter ball, the World Baseball Classic and 137 innings so far this season.

“Some things you don’t want to do you have to do,” Baker repeated about adding Owings and skipping Cueto. “The kid (Cueto) doesn’t feel anything. But this is what Dickie (Pole) was afraid of earlier. He was playing winter ball and the WBC, so was he going to run out of gas in the middle of August or will his arm be tight. It doesn’t hurt and he has his velocity, but sometimes when you’re tired you can maintain velocity, but you lose control and command.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/08/16/johnny_cueto_needs_protection.html?cxtype=feedbot

Quote of the day

“I ask scouts and players and managers and coaches all around the league about Johnny Cueto and they all tell me he has electric stuff.” — manager Dusty Baker on his beleaguered young pitcher, who may have electric stuff but appears to have had the plug pulled over his last seven starts (0-6, 10.57 ERA).

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/cincinnati-reds/cueto-could-be-shelved-for-owings-251685.html

Caveat Emperor
08-17-2009, 01:28 AM
I think he's short and probably doesn't take offseason conditioning very seriously. That's my theory.

Are you saying this just to say it, or do you have something to back this up?

WVRedsFan
08-17-2009, 01:41 AM
The Reds have the formula. Bring a kid up, pitch him to death at a young age, and let him do winter ball and anything else he wants to. And when he gets killed in August, you wonder why. If "Dickie" worried about it, why didn't he take some action earlier?

This is the main reason why this franchise needs to not only look at their young talent, but spend money on established talent. You need both. And you need a franchise who recognizes that. We've got a long way to go to being competitive, and there are many reasons why from the FO to the field management, to the players. I hope I live long enough to see a winning season, but it looks like I won't.

Mario-Rijo
08-17-2009, 02:58 AM
I think he is/was hurt he's had problems ever since a game earlier in the season when he was having trouble throwing strikes early in the game and was grimacing. He stayed in that game and magically got it together pitching well after about the 3rd inning or so but hasn't pitched very well since around that time. Probably has broken down physically due to overexposure.

reds44
08-17-2009, 05:50 AM
No more winter ball for Cueto and Volquez.

Anybody disgree?

icehole3
08-17-2009, 07:37 AM
I'd like someone to interview Mario Soto on what he thinks, I have no faith in Dusty or Pole

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 10:19 AM
No more winter ball for Cueto and Volquez.

Anybody disgree?

No more winter ball for either, but I'm still ok with Volquez making more music videos with Maceo.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 11:22 AM
Are you saying this just to say it, or do you have something to back this up?

It's either that or he's hurt and doesn't recognize that he's hurt. Take your pick.

How many innings did he log in Winter Ball? Everyone says that's the reason but offers no explanation of why, particularly when it's so few innings and so many other MLB pitchers do it without falling to pieces by July.

Sorry, don't buy the winter ball excuse at all.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 11:35 AM
Are you saying this just to say it, or do you have something to back this up?

I'll take yes for the first part and no to the second for $100 Alex.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 01:46 PM
I'll take yes for the first part and no to the second for $100 Alex.

Any theories? Or are you--and Caveat--just looking to be inflammatory?

Heck, I have a theory, I realize it's a theory, but I don't see a soul here with a better one, a more substantial one. We're all just sort of talking out of our arses--no different than the panacea blame of "winter ball" (the reason all Reds' pitchers suffer, apparently).

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 01:53 PM
Any theories? Or are you--and Caveat--just looking to be inflammatory?

Sure, I have a theory: He hurt his arm climbing a tree to clean out a bees nest.

Which makes about as much sense as your utterly unfounded assertion that because he's struggling he's a lazy bum who doesn't do any off-season condition.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 02:12 PM
Sure, I have a theory: He hurt his arm climbing a tree to clean out a bees nest.

Which makes about as much sense as your utterly unfounded assertion that because he's struggling he's a lazy bum who doesn't do any off-season condition.

Really? 23 year old kids with natural skills letting their gifts go to waste--that's uncommon?

You don't have to be a bum not to stay atop your profession.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 02:22 PM
Really? 23 year old kids with natural skills letting their gifts go to waste--that's uncommon?

So I guess this is the drum you're going to beat this week?

I guess your pal Sanchez in Frisco is letting his gifts get away from him too eh? I mean, a 5-10 record and he got hammered the other night....man. What a shame.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 02:26 PM
So I guess this is the drum you're going to beat this week?

I guess your pal Sanchez in Frisco is letting his gifts get away from him too eh? I mean, a 5-10 record and he got hammered the other night....man. What a shame.

I'll let you argue with yourself in private.

jojo
08-17-2009, 02:49 PM
I think pitching winterball is probably not something lazy players do.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 03:27 PM
I think pitching winterball is probably not something lazy players do.

Abner said he was lazy, not me.

I do wonder though why Reds' pitchers somehow stink after throwing winter ball but no pitchers from other teams seem to have that problem.

Wouldn't have anything to do with this organization's overall professional expectations of its players would it? Is it such a leap from comments of players like Graves and Arroyo who have described the Reds' organization as a great place to play because no one cares how well you do to the theory that maybe the Reds' pitchers aren't on the same offseason regimen as other teams' pitchers are?

My comment wasn't necessarily that he's "lazy" or that any Reds' players are "lazy," but that a young player who barely speaks the language might not be getting the best personal and professional advice from an organization that sets the professionalism bar at a disgusting low.

*BaseClogger*
08-17-2009, 03:33 PM
Volquez threw winter ball before last season and it didn't negatively affect him? :confused:

I think it's more likely Cueto is having a mechanical issue, causing him to lose command...

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 03:33 PM
My comment wasn't necessarily that he's "lazy" or that any Reds' players are "lazy," but that a young player who barely speaks the language might not be getting the best personal and professional advice from an organization that sets the professionalism bar at a disgusting low.

Actually what you said was...


I think he's short and probably doesn't take offseason conditioning very seriously.

Not taking conditioning very seriously is another way of saying lazy.

But now that you are changing your argument from him being "not so serious" to the issue being on the Reds side (not giving the best personal and professional advice) I think you're swerving more into reasonable territory. In other words, if your theory is now morphed into the Reds aren't helping him condition properly, I tend to agree with you.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 03:36 PM
I think it's more likely he is having a mechanical issue, causing him to lose command...

This is possible. But again, it links right back into the thesis of this organization's total lack of professionalism: why on earth can't someone, anyone, find out what the problem is? It can't be mysterious--they have all the technology they'd ever need to diagnose the mechanical issue. So why haven't they?

As to your first topic: name some other players from other teams that turn up bum-winged or "worn out" from winter ball.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 03:36 PM
IMO Cueto is hurt ... surgery is in the on-deck circle waiting to walk up to the plate. He has been pushed hard the last two seasons.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 03:37 PM
Actually what you said was...



Not taking conditioning very seriously is another way of saying lazy.

But now that you are changing your argument from him being "not so serious" to the issue being on the Reds side (not giving the best personal and professional advice) I think you're swerving more into reasonable territory. In other words, if your theory is now morphed into the Reds aren't helping him condition properly, I tend to agree with you.

The argument hasn't morphed at all. Like a child being raised by idiotic parents, he's going to do idiotic things. It's part Cueto, part the ballclub. All bad.

*BaseClogger*
08-17-2009, 04:01 PM
As to your first topic: name some other players from other teams that turn up bum-winged or "worn out" from winter ball.

I was agreeing with you? :confused:

edabbs44
08-17-2009, 04:14 PM
Sure, I have a theory: He hurt his arm climbing a tree to clean out a bees nest.

Which makes about as much sense as your utterly unfounded assertion that because he's struggling he's a lazy bum who doesn't do any off-season condition.

Do you have his number? I have a small issue with bees at casa de edabbs44 right about now.