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traderumor
08-17-2009, 12:24 PM
From Fay's blog:


I've come to conclusion over the last couple of the days after talking to some Reds insiders that the best course of action this offseason will be to do as little as possible as far as free agents. I base this on a couple of things:


--There's too much to fix, too little money to do it.


--The current big contacts are the reason the team has little money to do it.


--When you shop for bargain, it doesn't often work out. As I wrote Sunday, "Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras."


--And, most importantly, for this team to win, it's going to have to be with players it drafted and developed. Trying to get around that by patching holes with free agents (Alex Gonzalez, Francisco Cordero, Willy Taveras) hasn't worked.


Apparently, now that Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo are pitching well, the Reds is less likely to trade them because Bob Castellini is hoping for a turnaround in the 2010. The trade for Scott Rolen hammered home that idea. Adding Rolen's salary removed what little payroll flexibility the Reds had.


So how do the Reds fill the holes they have? If I'm running the team, Drew Stubbs is playing center field and leading off Tuesday night. He's gets a six-week trial to prove himself. Brandon Phillips goes to shortstop, and the Todd Frazier experiment at second base moves to the majors. Wladimir Balentien plays every day.


I don't know that any of the above are the answers. But if they fail, you don't have to deal with their contracts.


The Reds fear the fans won't buy a rebuilding job. I think they'll embrace it.

With the 1985-1987 Reds as a testament, I agree with Fay (heaven help me!). But, it was embraced then because the talent coming up was Larkin, Davis, O'Neill, et al. The only way the Reds could get that kind of talent would be from someone else's system, and it doesn't seem that anyone is willing to give up anything for our major league pitchers because of bad contracts.

Tom Servo
08-17-2009, 12:27 PM
Apparently, now that Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo are pitching well, the Reds is less likely to trade them because Bob Castellini is hoping for a turnaround in the 2010.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2458/headdeskq.jpg

Eric_the_Red
08-17-2009, 12:33 PM
So 2010 will look a lot like 2009 which looks a lot like 2008 which looked a lot like 2007 which looked a lot like 2006....etc....etc....

flyer85
08-17-2009, 12:34 PM
Willy T is the shining example of a clueless organization ... what he has done was entirely predictable. He was an awful fit for the Reds yet they couldn't see it. They thought he was shinola instead of what he really is.

If they can't properly identify Willy T and his ilk I have no confidence they can get much of anything else correct, instead I simply attribute "good moves" to the blind squirrel theory.

KoryMac5
08-17-2009, 12:34 PM
The only way to generate any excitement and that ballpark and to get the fans to come back is to put something on the field that is worth watching. I agree with Fay that the Reds need to start calling up some of the kids to give them a 5-6 week tryout to see what you have.

Unfortunately I don't think Bob C knows enough to get out of his own way and I am sure the patchwork era will continue for the next few years.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 12:35 PM
So 2010 will look a lot like 2009 which looks a lot like 2008 which looked a lot like 2007 which looked a lot like 2006....etc....etc....and she told two friends....and she told two friends....and so on, and so on. ;)

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 12:36 PM
So the big contracts are a real problem that is limiting this franchise?

Let's go out and get a big contract third baseman!

Kc61
08-17-2009, 12:37 PM
Fay says this every year. I disagree every year.

I disagree very, very much this year.

The Reds need to add a cleanup hitter and a shortstop, preferably one who can get on base at a reasonable clip. They then need to re-adjust some positions (CF) and perhaps add a middle reliever.

Then I'd take my shot with the team. Not great, not a juggernaut, but they'd be competitive.

But sitting back and waiting for Yorman Rodriguez is not the answer.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 12:37 PM
I really don't understand why Bob thinks the fans will walk if he puts out a 65 win team (that is honestly building for the future) but love and adore 70 win dreck that is currently playing?

I also don't understand why he hasn't realized that the fans have already walked.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 12:37 PM
I agree with Fay that the Reds need to start calling up some of the kids to give them a 5-6 week tryout to see what you have.

The main reason to do it is that there is potential upside. Most of what they have is known without any upside aside from randomness.

They seem paralyzed by the fear of the unknown and the risk that comes with it. Move Brandon to SS bring up Frazier and Heisey and flush the crap down the tiolet. Everyone else but management seems to be able to identify the smell and where it is coming from.

Tom Servo
08-17-2009, 12:39 PM
So 2010 will look a lot like 2009 which looks a lot like 2008 which looked a lot like 2007 which looked a lot like 2006....etc....etc....
I would do anything for a year like 2006 again. This time that year we were a game or two over .500 and in a pennant race. Being .500 is all it takes to make me happy, and the Reds typically can only manage it up until about June.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 12:39 PM
The main reason to do it is that there is potential upside. Most of what they have is known without any upside aside from randomness.

They seem paralyzed by the fear of the unknown and the risk that comes with it. Move Brandon to SS bring up Frazier and Heisey and flush the crap down the tiolet. Everyone else but management seems to be able to identify the smell and where it is coming from.There could be some legitimate thought of keeping those two nice and shiny without a failed major league tryout on the resume. While it seems that teams should know better, like the stock market, folks are able to exploit inefficiencies in the system every day and pick up winners on the cheap.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 12:41 PM
Then I'd take my shot with the team. Not great, not a juggernaut, but they'd be competitive.
That's the problem, unless the foundation is built solidly mediocre is all they will ever be. Make a playoff run once in a while with no real shot of doing anything once you get there because the holes are harder to mask in the post-season. If I was in charge my goal is to build a team that can win in the post-season, not just be glad to make it to there.

If this team is competitive next year I have become so cynical about the Reds management that I would chalk up to nothing more than serendipity.

dsmith421
08-17-2009, 12:41 PM
Exactly, they have no coherent plan at all, and everyone from the 19-year-old stathead to the BRM veteran fans know it. The whole franchise is a gigantic bill of goods. They are fooling no one with this garbage.

In fact, everyone can enjoy a piece of poop cake.

The statheads can rip their hair out over Willy Taveras, the lineup construction, and the team's pathetic OBP. The traditionalists can rip their hair out over stupid mental errors, a complete lack of hustle and effort, and the team's pathetic BA. Pitching aficionados have actually already leaped from the Suspension Bridge.

The Reds organization may have more talent than some of its rivals, but with the ownership, contract structure, and organizational ethos in place, I'd argue we're as far from contention as anyone right now.

M2
08-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Sounds like what Fay is hearing from the front office is it doesn't know what to do.

savafan
08-17-2009, 12:43 PM
I thought we weren't going to lose anymore. :dunno:

flyer85
08-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Sounds like what Fay is hearing from the front office is it doesn't know what to do.
Rolen is a shining example of that. The acquisition itself made little sense and the timing even less.

I could buy an argument for the trade if it was made in the off-season after a thorough assessment of where they are what was still needing to be done. However, the Rolen acquisition was doing the light lifting without having done the heavy lifting and is completely pointless until the heavy lifting is done.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Here's food for thought: If you want to get rid of a bad contract and get something back, a valid way to do so was to attach a middling to above average prospect to the deal. I have been under the impression that the Reds farm system is stocked with ample numbers of such prospects. Others go so far as to say prospects are the current gold standard. So, either the depth of the system is a myth or the Reds are believing their own hype about the prospects (which doesn't make sense in light of letting Stewart go, I would point out). Is there another option for the inability to move Harang/Arroyo when it appeared the getting was good? Or are they thinking like Fay expressed above?

Man, I feel like the Reds are as clueless as when the Lindner/O'Brien tandem was running the show, and that is scary. What say you BC/WJ? Validly compared to that duo is quite an indictment.

KoryMac5
08-17-2009, 12:49 PM
Sounds like what Fay is hearing from the front office is it doesn't know what to do.

Exactly I think the front office is in constant conflict with ownership right now over this "Win Now" mantra. It's why Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero were not dealt and it is why Rolen was brought in for a last place team's playoff push. Bob C has a totally different view of the organization than the rest of us. I can't see Walt sticking around much longer if ownership continues to have one view and the FO has another.

Tom Servo
08-17-2009, 12:51 PM
Man, I feel like the Reds are as clueless as when the Lindner/O'Brien tandem was running the show, and that is scary. What say you BC/WJ? Validly compared to that duo is quite an indictment.
I'm beginning to feel bad for Wayne Krivsky.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 12:51 PM
the best course of action this offseason will be to do as little as possible...

http://4.media.tumblr.com/0LOD7ELvfkb7ceppKRSsR1epo1_500.jpg

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 12:55 PM
So we're going to do nothing in the offseason?

THE LOSING STOPS OPENING DAY 2010!

traderumor
08-17-2009, 12:56 PM
While I'm pondering, it is conspicuous by its absence any talk of Brandon Phillips in trade rumors. The only smoke signal on BP has been moving to SS. So, as you try to cryptically see the Reds FO evaluations or lack of interest, they are either so high on him or there is so little interest that his name isn't even making it to MLBTraderumors, which is quite a feat I might add.

And I have seen the merit of using his trade value to make a deal involving high-end prospects, I might be scrapping that theory and jumping on the "tryout at SS" bandwagon.

WMR
08-17-2009, 12:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnkefjCES-4

flyer85
08-17-2009, 01:00 PM
While I'm pondering, it is conspicuous by its absence any talk of Brandon Phillips in trade rumors. The only smoke signal on BP has been moving to SS. So, as you try to cryptically see the Reds FO evaluations or lack of interest, they are either so high on him or there is so little interest that his name isn't even making it to MLBTraderumors, which is quite a feat I might add.

And I have seen the merit of using his trade value to make a deal involving high-end prospects, I might be scrapping that theory and jumping on the "tryout at SS" bandwagon.as a 2b his offense is overrated and he is about to get expensive.

Always Red
08-17-2009, 01:04 PM
... I might be scrapping that theory and jumping on the "tryout at SS" bandwagon.

But let's wait until spring training next year to see if he can do it. See, it wouldn't be fair to BP to move him now, would it? And it wouldn't be fair tot he teams in front of the Reds in standings either (which includes most of the NL at this point). :rolleyes:

That way, if BP can't cut it at SS next spring, we can have a double epic fail on our hands.

We're stuck with this little nightmare we call "The Reds" aren't we?

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:05 PM
as a 2b his offense is overrated and he is about to get expensive.so, move over gents, BP to SS here I come. Of course, I've not seen him play one inning at the most important fielding position in the game, but he did play it in the minors, so surely he can do it at the major league level, right?

"Why not move Kearns to 3B? I think he played there some in HS"

"Graves did pretty good as a starter in September. Can't do any worse."

"Why can't we just re-write WMP's contract?"

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 01:06 PM
I've been a Reds fan for a long time, but I'm very close to just giving up on them. Now, it's already 'do nothing' in the offseason, and blame it on big contracts, after going out and trading for an aging 3rd baseman with a big contract. It doesn't make any sense, and it's just another excuse coming from the organization, every season they come up with another justification for why they suck, and why they aren't improving. We all should be used to it by now.

Hell, it's not just this coming off season, that could be the Reds motto for the last 15 years. "Come watch your Cincinnati Reds.....DO NOTHING, all season long".

The whole thing is pitiful.

BCubb2003
08-17-2009, 01:06 PM
If you want to win now, you're going to have to pay now. You don't have to let the spending get out of control, but you have to spend enough to break the cycle. You're not going to prosper by saying, "If we get better here, we get worse here." You have to be able to add to what's already good.

Roy Tucker
08-17-2009, 01:07 PM
So the Reds are saying "we've made a lot of bad decisions and now the one we're making means we're putting a AAAA team on the field for the forseeable future so please keep paying MLB-level dollars for a sub-MLB level team and maybe we'll someday remove our heads from our rear ends".

I'll stay a Reds fan, but I'll be darned if I'll pay any money for what they're selling.

Tom Servo
08-17-2009, 01:09 PM
"Why can't we just re-write WMP's contract?"
Yeah, let's do that. And then we can just send him down to the minors?

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:09 PM
I've been a Reds fan for a long time, but I'm very close to just giving up on them. Just like the axiom "never get a girlfriend's name tatooed anywhere on your body," nor should you choose a permanent moniker on a team's fan board ;)

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 01:10 PM
I'll stay a Reds fan, but I'll be darned if I'll pay any money for what they're selling.

Sometimes I wonder if an en masse fan boycott/walkout/protest would get Bozo Bob's attention.

Part of me feels that while this *might* get him to understand our frustration, he'd likely panic, go nuts and make even dumber decisions.

I wonder if there is a sportingclayszone.com ?

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:10 PM
Yeah, let's do that. And then we can just send him down to the minors?I think. Anyone know the rules on that :p:

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Just like the axiom "never get a girlfriend's name tatooed anywhere on your body," nor should you choose a permanent moniker on a team's fan board ;)

:lol:

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:13 PM
Sometimes I wonder if an en masse fan boycott/walkout/protest would get Bozo Bob's attention.

Part of me feels that while this *might* get him to understand our frustration, he'd likely panic, go nuts and make even dumber decisions.

I wonder if there is a sportingclayszone.com ?Now we are full circle. The last boycott threat I recall was as the Kullman directed fire sale was taking place and John Allen was writing PR letters.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/groundhog-day-clock.jpg"They say we're young and we don't know....Babe, I got you babe."

Kc61
08-17-2009, 01:15 PM
That's the problem, unless the foundation is built solidly mediocre is all they will ever be. Make a playoff run once in a while with no real shot of doing anything once you get there because the holes are harder to mask in the post-season. If I was in charge my goal is to build a team that can win in the post-season, not just be glad to make it to there.

.

I have a different approach in mind. First, get good. Then, second, try and get very good. Then, third, try to get great.

The foundation analogy is flawed because a foundation on a house lasts for decades. On a baseball team, there is always change, free agents leave, injuries come up, some guys don't pan out. So you need to get good in a relatively short period of time or your "foundation" is gone.

A well-run team should have a handful of excellent veterans, several solid but not expensive veterans, some talented kids, and some role players. A mixture.

The answer is not just sitting back and waiting for kids, the answer is building with all of these components.

edabbs44
08-17-2009, 01:17 PM
When there is too much to fix and not enough money to fix it, the sooner you burn it down the better.

2006-2007 would have been a grand time to burn it down.

dfs
08-17-2009, 01:17 PM
I've been a Reds fan for a long time, but I'm very close to just giving up on them.

I accepted dumping Dunn, because it looked like they had a plan. At that point I was about as high on this organization as I've been in years.

The Rolen acquisition flips that on it's head. This team will not compete till the Walt and Dusty years are over.

I'll be a fan. I'll root for them, but realistically they aren't going to sniff 500 any time soon.

BCubb2003
08-17-2009, 01:18 PM
I have a different approach in mind. First, get good. Then, second, try and get very good. Then, third, try to get great.

The foundation analogy is flawed because a foundation on a house lasts for decades. On a baseball team, there is always change, free agents leave, injuries come up, some guys don't pan out. So you need to get good in a relatively short period of time or your "foundation" is gone.

A well-run team should have a handful of excellent veterans, several solid but not expensive veterans, some talented kids, and some role players. A mixture.

The answer is not just sitting back and waiting for kids, the answer is building with all of these components.

I think that's what they were trying to do with the Scott Rolen deal. Of course, they need a Rolen at short and left, maybe center. Then they need younger ones. By then, they'll need some at the other positions.

WMR
08-17-2009, 01:22 PM
I accepted dumping Dunn, because it looked like they had a plan. At that point I was about as high on this organization as I've been in years.

The Rolen acquisition flips that on it's head. This team will not compete till the Walt and Dusty years are over.

I'll be a fan. I'll root for them, but realistically they aren't going to sniff 500 any time soon.

Bob is a bigger problem than either of those two, IMO.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 01:25 PM
So the Reds are saying "we've made a lot of bad decisions and now the one we're making means we're putting a AAAA team on the field for the forseeable future so please keep paying MLB-level dollars for a sub-MLB level team and maybe we'll someday remove our heads from our rear ends".

I'll stay a Reds fan, but I'll be darned if I'll pay any money for what they're selling.

You nailed it, Roy.

I cancelled my season tickets last offseason once they signed Willy T, and I have absolutely zero regret for doing that. In fact, I've been to far fewer Reds games this season than I have in the last several years. It's no accident, either. The entire organization top to bottom just plain out stinks.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 01:25 PM
so, move over gents, BP to SS here I come. Of course, I've not seen him play one inning at the most important fielding position in the game, but he did play it in the minors, so surely he can do it at the major league level, right?

"Why not move Kearns to 3B? I think he played there some in HS"

"Graves did pretty good as a starter in September. Can't do any worse."

"Why can't we just re-write WMP's contract?"strawman ... neither Kearns or Graves spent any of their minor league career in a different role while BP spent a lot of his minor league career as a SS. BP certainly has the athleticism and arm to play the position(the two reason most players get moved off of the position).

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 01:30 PM
You nailed it, Roy.

I cancelled my season tickets last offseason once they signed Willy T, and I have absolutely zero regret for doing that. In fact, I've been to far fewer Reds games this season than I have in the last several years. It's no accident, either. The entire organization top to bottom just plain out stinks.

I haven't been to any games this season. Zero.

Instead I spent my ticket money on UC football tickets.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I haven't been to any games this season. Zero.
same for me ... that was after attending around 50 games over the previous 5 years.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I wonder what sort of illogical double-speak they had to use to convince themselves that "doing nothing" was a really dandy idea.

Probably had to create a entirely new language to sell that stinker.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
--There's too much to fix, too little money to do it.

--The current big contacts are the reason the team has little money to do it.

Willy T: $4 million in 2010
teh Dusty: $3.5 million in 2010 (approximate)
Lincoln: $2.5 million in 2010

Speaking of burning a big pile of cash, that's $10 million that qualifies right there. When you burn money like that, it's no wonder they're in the position that they're currently in. Guys such as Arroyo are expensive, but at least he actually provides some type of value. Burning $10 million for negative value is significantly worse.

RedsManRick
08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I can understand when things just don't work out. Sometimes good decisions lead to poor results. But when you make decisions that are clearly poor from the very start, you won't get my sympathy -- or my money -- when things fall apart.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 01:34 PM
I haven't been to any games this season. Zero.

My father and I go, but it's only because he bought the tickets for us and I can't really pass up free ballgame tickets.

That said, we routinely leave early and some pretty lame "scheduling conflicts" have popped up so that we had to give the tickets away. Basically we go for the food, time together and the scoreboard stumper.

Always Red
08-17-2009, 01:36 PM
Willy T: $4 million in 2010
teh Dusty: $3.5 million in 2010 (approximate)
Lincoln: $2.5 million in 2010


new scoreboard: $10 million

Unlike others, I actually did re-up my 20 game pack for this year. It's the one thing my college aged daughters will go along with me to see. I have buyer's remorse, and will not be back next year.

From now on, until they show a willingness to play to win, I treat the Reds just like the Bengals- I go when the tickets are free.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:37 PM
strawman ... neither Kearns or Graves spent any of their minor league career in a different role while BP spent a lot of his minor league career as a SS. BP certainly has the athleticism and arm to play the position(the two reason most players get moved off of the position).Not so fast on the strawman. The argument is "bonehead suggestions touted on RZ and actually tried by the Reds" (except I don't know if they tried to rewrite WMP's contract, but knowing in Jimbo, he probably had an intern research it!).

We are talking about moving to the most important defensive position on the diamond and he has exactly the same amount of experience at the major league level playing SS as Kearns did 3B and Graves did starting. Graves did start three games in the Minors in 1997, btw.

No one really has any idea if he can play the position major league caliber, it is based on "he played it some in the minors, I think." Did he play it well? I don't know, did you see him play SS in the minors? What age was that?

Also, he is going up a position on the scale, and although he is still "young" in MLB years, I'm not sure that he will be a plus defender at SS like he is at 2b. Perhaps his suspect offense at his current position might fit better comparatively at a tougher defensive position, but then will his offensive production suffer as he struggles with the demands of the position of major league SS? I hope the Reds are sorting through all that and more before they entertain the experiment.

M2
08-17-2009, 01:38 PM
If you want to win now, you're going to have to pay now. You don't have to let the spending get out of control, but you have to spend enough to break the cycle. You're not going to prosper by saying, "If we get better here, we get worse here." You have to be able to add to what's already good.

That's the prescription.

Make the Indians an offer they can't refuse for Grady Sizemore. Pick up Chris Snyder for peanuts when the DBacks are in contract divestiture mode. Spend a bit for a big bat in LF (cough, Vlad Guerrero, cough). Buy yourself another starting pitcher (dependent on health there's a few interesting options). Figure out the SS/2B situation.

Be a major league team and get yourself some major league players.

UKFlounder
08-17-2009, 01:40 PM
But it was Fay, not the Reds, who proposed the "do nothing" idea, though maybe the Reds will follow it anyway (I'm not yet convinced they've planned far enough ahead to be considering what to do in the offseason.)


I wonder what sort of illogical double-speak they had to use to convince themselves that "doing nothing" was a really dandy idea.

Probably had to create a entirely new language to sell that stinker.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 01:40 PM
new scoreboard: $10 million

Supposedly that's saving money in energy costs. Who knows how much, if that's really true. But the hope is that might bring about an eventual positive ROI.

But guys such as teh Dusty, Willy T and Lincoln ... well ... we might as roll up stacks of Franklins in some dynamite and then light it all off. At least that'd provide some temporary entertainment.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2009, 01:40 PM
The problem with "do-nothing" is that the Reds have nothing in the minors to pin their hopes on.

KC61 is 100% right (as he has been a lot lately): foundations are for suckers--all that matters is talent evaluation. We're running on ten years of folks who can't identify talent: they can't trade for it, they can't acquire it through FA, and they sure as heck don't know how to draft it or develop it. The latter has kept this team in the Stone Age and will continue to do so till it's properly fixed.

Tom Servo
08-17-2009, 01:41 PM
I wonder what sort of illogical double-speak they had to use to convince themselves that "doing nothing" was a really dandy idea.

Probably had to create a entirely new language to sell that stinker.
Probably something out of one of DanO's old binders. "I think we made some strides in the direction that we need to go. Obviously a number of the activities we're involved in are at various stages."

traderumor
08-17-2009, 01:42 PM
Supposedly that's saving money in energy costs. Who knows how much, if that's really true. But the hope is that might bring about an eventual positive ROI.

But guys such as teh Dusty, Willy T and Lincoln ... well ... we might as roll up stacks of Franklins in some dynamite and then light it all off. At least that'd provide some temporary entertainment.I think they did that in the fireworks show Friday. Now that was major league entertainment, whereas the team on the field was not.

Kc61
08-17-2009, 01:44 PM
I think that's what they were trying to do with the Scott Rolen deal. Of course, they need a Rolen at short and left, maybe center. Then they need younger ones. By then, they'll need some at the other positions.


I don't think it takes too much to make this team competitive in the division. Which is the place I would start. I'd worry about being the '27 Yankees a bit later.

But even to be competitive in the division requires some additional investment and an understanding of where that investment is needed. If they are willing, they can do it, it's not that hard.

The offense that the Reds constructed for this season was so abysmal that the team had no chance. You can't have a major area of the team be that bad. It won't get fixed by leaving it alone.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 01:45 PM
The problem with "do-nothing" is that the Reds have nothing in the minors to pin their hopes on.

KC61 is 100% right (as he has been a lot lately): foundations are for suckers--all that matters is talent evaluation. We're running on ten years of folks who can't identify talent: they can't trade for it, they can't acquire it through FA, and they sure as heck don't know how to draft it or develop it. The latter has kept this team in the Stone Age and will continue to do so till it's properly fixed.

This might be like the official definition for The Lost Decade, as originally penned by FCB (and edited by me).

The Lost Decade (see Reds, Cincinnati): An organization ran by 10+ years of folks who can't identify talent, can't trade for talent, can't acquire talent through free agency, and they sure as heck don't know how to draft or develop talent. Tally it all up, and all the above will keep an organization sunk in a Lost Decade until it is properly fixed.

jojo
08-17-2009, 01:51 PM
Supposedly that's saving money in energy costs. Who knows how much, if that's really true. But the hope is that might bring about an eventual positive ROI.

But guys such as teh Dusty, Willy T and Lincoln ... well ... we might as roll up stacks of Franklins in some dynamite and then light it all off. At least that'd provide some temporary entertainment.

Maybe they should light GABP using solar energy. Think of the savings.

UKFlounder
08-17-2009, 01:52 PM
Add "see Bengals, Cincinnati" to it as it was first applied to them (by Paul Daugherty) and, for some reason, the Reds have followed the same path.


This might be like the official definition for The Lost Decade, as originally penned by FCB (and edited by me).

The Lost Decade (see Reds, Cincinnati): An organization ran by 10+ years of folks who can't identify talent, can't trade for talent, can't acquire talent through free agency, and they sure as heck don't know how to draft or develop talent. Tally it all up, and all the above will keep an organization sunk in a Lost Decade until it is properly fixed.

15fan
08-17-2009, 01:59 PM
:bash: :explode: :dunno: :runawaycr :yikes: :confused: :all_cohol

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Add "see Bengals, Cincinnati" to it as it was first applied to them (by Paul Daugherty) and, for some reason, the Reds have followed the same path.

It's almost as if the Reds scrutinized the Bengals organizational blueprint from 1991-present and then said "hey this is a phenomenal plan - let's implement it!"

Chip R
08-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Maybe they should light GABP using solar energy. Think of the savings.


Cool. We could play all day games like the Cubs used to. We already have the bad team like they had so it wouldn't be a stretch.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 02:08 PM
Other ideas for curing the Reds ills:

* Blame it on the Commies
* Build a $200,000,000 trolley system downtown
* More speed and more defense
* Implement "Sweatin to the Oldies" program into team conditioning routine
* One word: HAVOC
* Invade Northern Kentucky
* NyQuil Night at GABP.....for every home game

Benihana
08-17-2009, 02:12 PM
If I'm running the team, Drew Stubbs is playing center field and leading off Tuesday night. He's gets a six-week trial to prove himself. Brandon Phillips goes to shortstop, and the Todd Frazier experiment at second base moves to the majors. Wladimir Balentien plays every day.

I actually agree with Fay's plan for the rest of this season. The offseason is another story...

(although I'd wait until September 1 for the call-ups of Stubbs & Frazier)

dougdirt
08-17-2009, 02:15 PM
If Bob isn't going to up payroll to about 85 Million, I am with Fay. Do nothing in free agency because all its going to be doing is wasting money. The Reds need legit help, help that only a legit player worthy of 8+ million a year over 3-5 years is going to get you. On top of that, they probably need another 7 million in help between the bench/bullpen. At that point take out Willy, plug in Dickerson/Stubbs and we MAY be getting ourselves moving in the right direction.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 02:27 PM
Maybe they should light GABP using solar energy. Think of the savings.And Chris Dickerson could become the face of the "Green Friendly Team." Print tickets on recycled paper, plant trees in the outfield for carbon offset credits, the possibilities are endless.

Ltlabner
08-17-2009, 02:33 PM
On a serious note. Assuming Fay's assertions are true, and frankly I think he's pretty dead on, what are the so afraid of?

They seem so gripped by the fear of alienating the fans that they are making bad decisions and ultimately alienating the fans.

dougdirt
08-17-2009, 02:38 PM
On a serious note. Assuming Fay's assertions are true, and frankly I think he's pretty dead on, what are the so afraid of?

They seem so gripped by the fear of alienating the fans that they are making bad decisions and ultimately alienating the fans.

They (BOB) is afraid that he will continue to lose money next year. If we 'rebuild' then people don't show up April-June rather than July-September. He doesn't seem to get the long view, he only see's small area's of red and green directly ahead of him.

Always Red
08-17-2009, 02:38 PM
On a serious note. Assuming Fay's assertions are true, and frankly I think he's pretty dead on, what are the so afraid of?

They seem so gripped by the fear of alienating the fans that they are making bad decisions and ultimately alienating the fans.

They should be afraid of apathy, which is far worse than anger.

I sense a lot of resignation and apathy around these parts of late.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 02:41 PM
On a serious note. Assuming Fay's assertions are true, and frankly I think he's pretty dead on, what are the so afraid of?

They seem so gripped by the fear of alienating the fans that they are making bad decisions and ultimately alienating the fans.

Yup, meanwhile attendance will very likely sink to an all-time GABP low this season. The park routinely looks like a ghost town nearly every night now, even weekends.

We're sitting at 24,242 per game right now, and that's already the second lowest average since GABP opened (23,696 in 2005 is the lowest). But considering the state of the team currently and the fact that the Reds drew a whopping 68k over a three game weekend series with beautiful weather and a bobblehead promotion, and I see that 24,242 average sinking fast over the remaining 23 home games.

UKFlounder
08-17-2009, 02:43 PM
Well, we use recycled players (Rhodes, Nix, Gomes, Tavares, etc) so we might be on that path


And Chris Dickerson could become the face of the "Green Friendly Team." Print tickets on recycled paper, plant trees in the outfield for carbon offset credits, the possibilities are endless.

LvJ
08-17-2009, 02:46 PM
http://www.aww-kittah-aww.com/up/public/91281/god.gif

Kc61
08-17-2009, 02:46 PM
They (BOB) is afraid that he will continue to lose money next year. If we 'rebuild' then people don't show up April-June rather than July-September. He doesn't seem to get the long view, he only see's small area's of red and green directly ahead of him.

Do you honestly think the Reds have the type of minor league players to turn this team into a Tampa Bay of 2008?

I don't contend to know the system as well as you, but my answer is a resounding "no." I see a depth of guys who can become decent players and two or three potential standouts.

So the rebuild with youth plan is, IMO, at minimum a five-year plan, or possibly longer if these guys don't pan out that well or that quickly. Five years from now. And who knows what you have at that point. Without the true stud players, the Strassburgs, the Longorias, the build with youth plan is highly speculative IMO.

Whereas if Bob and his partners would invest in the team now, he could have a pretty good product next year and then build from there.

dougdirt
08-17-2009, 02:56 PM
Do you honestly think the Reds have the type of minor league players to turn this team into a Tampa Bay of 2008?

I don't contend to know the system as well as you, but my answer is a resounding "no." I see a depth of guys who can become decent players and two or three potential standouts.

So the rebuild with youth plan is, IMO, at minimum a five-year plan, or possibly longer if these guys don't pan out that well or that quickly. Five years from now. And who knows what you have at that point.

Whereas if Bob and his partners would invest in the team now, he could have a pretty good product next year and then build from there.
I don't think we can match BJ Upton in CF from 2008, but I think we have the parts that could (emphasis on could) match about everything else. Bruce could hit like Longoria. Votto does hit like Pena. No one else on that team had an .800 OPS. The difference is the pitching really (and a little on defense). But our guys could be fairly good if things go right. I don't think we can match how good their staff was overall in 2008, but we do have the potential to have a pretty decent staff.

REDREAD
08-17-2009, 03:15 PM
Fay is completely wrong.

If Bob had any vision, he'd spend the money to get a legit LF and SS to go along with Rolen. Maybe also spend a little bit of money patching other holes too.

He might have to sacrifice a little profitablity for a couple of years (I doubt he'd actually lose money), but at least he'll wake up his customer base and start getting people to care about this franchise again.

I understand Bob's hestitation after getting burned by Stanton, Cormier, etc. but he can't just put his head in the sand.

Imagine, if we do nothing this offseason.. Then after 2010, the club decides to let Arroyo and Harang walk (or trade them for a couple more Owings type players).. Imagine how bad the team is going to be in 2011, if Fay's advice is followed.

RedsManRick
08-17-2009, 03:23 PM
On a serious note. Assuming Fay's assertions are true, and frankly I think he's pretty dead on, what are the so afraid of?

They seem so gripped by the fear of alienating the fans that they are making bad decisions and ultimately alienating the fans.

Agreed. It's quite ironic that their fear of alienated the fan-base has to led to some poor strategic and operational decisions that have in turn alienated the fan-base.

I continue to believe that hope brings fans to the ballpark -- almost as much as winning itself. Nothing destroys hope like ignorance towards reality and incompetence in dealing with the reality when it becomes undeniable.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Nothing destroys hope like ignorance towards reality and incompetence in dealing with the reality when it becomes undeniable.I'm not listening ... I can't hear you. :help:

traderumor
08-17-2009, 03:47 PM
http://www.aww-kittah-aww.com/up/public/91281/god.gifthat is great. The smiling Ken doll just keeps on smiling while his friend has a meltdown.

Chip R
08-17-2009, 03:48 PM
I don't think they are actually as stupid as John Fay. At least I hope they aren't.

However, what they did - or didn't - do last off season may give someone pause if they believe they have the ability to turn this team around. Then doing nothing may be the best option. But if they believe that the addition of Rolen, an improved Willy T and Jay Bruce and a healthy Votto is going to be their marketing slogan next year, they aren't going to sell a lot of tickets - season or otherwise.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't think they are actually as stupid as John Fay. At least I hope they aren't.

However, what they did - or didn't - do last off season may give someone pause if they believe they have the ability to turn this team around. Then doing nothing may be the best option. But if they believe that the addition of Rolen, an improved Willy T and Jay Bruce and a healthy Votto is going to be their marketing slogan next year, they aren't going to sell a lot of tickets - season or otherwise.

"Come to Grrrrrreat American Ballpark to see Willy Taveras run real fast to first and see what a dying quail really looks like as it disappears into the yawning infielder's glove. You will see Jay Bruce hit lots of flyballs that get caught, the unlucky son-of-a-gun. And you never know, Joey Voooootto might hit the Tundra sign with a ball or an umpire. Either way, there will be fireworks! Come on out to Grrrrrrrrreat American Ballpark!!!!"

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 04:18 PM
They (BOB) is afraid that he will continue to lose money next year. If we 'rebuild' then people don't show up April-June rather than July-September. He doesn't seem to get the long view, he only see's small area's of red and green directly ahead of him.

I don't think for 1 minute that Bob's lost any money with the Reds.

Owners aren't in the business to lose money.

edabbs44
08-17-2009, 04:21 PM
I don't think for 1 minute that Bob's lost any money with the Reds.

Owners aren't in the business to lose money.

But do you think that he could lose money if he were to spend the money necessary in the short term to make this team into a winner? That would include adding players, eating contracts, big draft picks, etc etc etc.

flyer85
08-17-2009, 04:28 PM
But do you think that he could lose money if he were to spend the money necessary in the short term to make this team into a winner? That would include adding players, eating contracts, big draft picks, etc etc etc.Bob didn't caveat "the losing stops now". If he isn't willing to lose money to put a winner on the field then he was doing nothing more than bloviating.

WMR
08-17-2009, 04:35 PM
nm

membengal
08-17-2009, 04:38 PM
They should be afraid of apathy, which is far worse than anger.

I sense a lot of resignation and apathy around these parts of late.

Popping in to say..."me".

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 04:42 PM
Cincinnati is a tought market, although not played at the same time, there are plenty of other sports around here for people to spend thier annual entertainment money on.

Think about it:

Bengals
UC Football
UC Basketball
Xavier Basketball
Ohio State Basketball
Ohio State Football
Kentucky Basketball

That is a lot of competiton for sports dollars. A crappy product isn't going to bring in those dollars. It always amazed me successful business people (Big Bob, Carl Lindner) "get it" in other areas of business, but run into a freakin' brick wall when it comes to sports franchises.

Cyclone792
08-17-2009, 04:42 PM
I got an email from the Reds today titled "Enjoy exciting Reds baseball and a trip back in time to the world of dinosaurs"

The Reds' front office must be giving live tours now ...

Benihana
08-17-2009, 04:43 PM
They should be afraid of apathy, which is far worse than anger.

I sense a lot of resignation and apathy around these parts of late.

x 2

flyer85
08-17-2009, 04:44 PM
I got an email from the Reds today titled "Enjoy exciting Reds baseball and a trip back in time to the world of dinosaurs"

The Reds' front office must be giving live tours now ...
:bowrofl:

fearofpopvol1
08-17-2009, 04:49 PM
standing pat is the worst idea. either rebuild completely or pony up. pick a route and stick with it. standing pat hasn't worked the last 10 years...why would it work now?

nate
08-17-2009, 04:50 PM
I got an email from the Reds today titled "Enjoy exciting Reds baseball and a trip back in time to the world of dinosaurs"

The Reds' front office must be giving live tours now ...

That sounds like something off of an energy drink one might buy in Japan.

LvJ
08-17-2009, 04:51 PM
that is great. The smiling Ken doll just keeps on smiling while his friend has a meltdown. :bowrofl: That is indeed the best part.

WMR
08-17-2009, 04:51 PM
I'm thinking it must be a free ticket to the creation museum. They've got billboards up all over Cincinnati for that "museum."

Eric_the_Red
08-17-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm thinking if the Reds truly stand pat and do nothing, it is time for someone (possibly myself) to start the Reds version of WhoDey Revolution.

Brutus
08-17-2009, 05:00 PM
I guess Fay is only credible around these parts if he states conjecture that fans already believe. Then it can be assumed he's correct automatically.

westofyou
08-17-2009, 05:07 PM
Cincinnati is a tought market, although not played at the same time, there are plenty of other sports around here for people to spend thier annual entertainment money on.

Think about it:

Bengals
UC Football
UC Basketball
Xavier Basketball
Ohio State Basketball
Ohio State Football
Kentucky Basketball

That is a lot of competiton for sports dollars. A crappy product isn't going to bring in those dollars. It always amazed me successful business people (Big Bob, Carl Lindner) "get it" in other areas of business, but run into a freakin' brick wall when it comes to sports franchises.

Let's see the biggest running joke in the NFL and a bunch of 20 year olds playing a game most won't be playing in 2 years.

Sorry, but the Reds should be smashing all those programs in the press and the box office, college football & basketball isn't the Reds compitition, especially since they don't play at the same time of year.

Imagine if the Reds had to play in a real market like The Bay Area or NYC, where there are numerous pro teams and more colleges in a two hour drive than 4-5.



http://www.mat.upm.es/~jcm/Pogo.jpg

traderumor
08-17-2009, 05:09 PM
I got an email from the Reds today titled "Enjoy exciting Reds baseball and a trip back in time to the world of dinosaurs"

The Reds' front office must be giving live tours now ...Another BRM reunion? We've got to get past that at some point ;)

KoryMac5
08-17-2009, 05:09 PM
Imagine if the Reds had to play in a real market like The Bay Area or NYC, where there are numerous pro teams and more colleges in a two hour drive than 4-5.

Exactly on point, just look at the Clippers.

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Let's see the biggest running joke in the NFL and a bunch of 20 year olds playing a game most won't be playing in 2 years.

Sorry, but the Reds should be smashing all those programs in the press and the box office, college football & basketball isn't the Reds compitition, especially since they don't play at the same time of year.

Imagine if the Reds had to play in a real market like The Bay Area or NYC, where there are numerous pro teams and more colleges in a two hour drive than 4-5.



http://www.mat.upm.es/~jcm/Pogo.jpg

Bengals sell out every game, bad or not, and have for awhile. I'd venture to say they generate FAR more revenue than the Reds do.

I know a lot of people in this area that care more about those 20 year olds that won't be playing in 2 years than they do about the Reds.

westofyou
08-17-2009, 05:22 PM
Bengals sell out every game, bad or not, and have for awhile. I'd venture to say they generate FAR more revenue than the Reds do.

I know a lot of people in this area that care more about those 20 year olds that won't be playing in 2 years than they do about the Reds.

I get it, I live in Portland, folks care more about the Ducks here then they do about the Blazers. It's provencial and a product of years of being isolated from larger cities with pro teams.

The problem is the Reds claim to fame (false as it is) is that they are the oldest MLB franchise in the game, that hasn't done much for them at all.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 05:37 PM
But do you think that he could lose money if he were to spend the money necessary in the short term to make this team into a winner? That would include adding players, eating contracts, big draft picks, etc etc etc.

If Bob doesn't have the necessary means to turn this team into a winner, then he either needs to continue to make money and be honest with the fanbase that he's just turning a profit, or he needs to sell the team to someone with the necessary means to turn the Reds into a winner.

Bob needs to either try to grow this market and the Reds brand, or stop saying the losing stops now when all he's really saying is "I'm too cheap to put a winning product on the field b/c it'll cut into my profits".

Bob should figure out how to increase the fanbase, b/c that'll help his bottomline as well as hopefully help to field a better product.

It's true, if you build a winner, the fans will come.

Highlifeman21
08-17-2009, 05:39 PM
Cincinnati is a tought market, although not played at the same time, there are plenty of other sports around here for people to spend thier annual entertainment money on.

Think about it:

Bengals
UC Football
UC Basketball
Xavier Basketball
Ohio State Basketball
Ohio State Football
Kentucky Basketball

That is a lot of competiton for sports dollars. A crappy product isn't going to bring in those dollars. It always amazed me successful business people (Big Bob, Carl Lindner) "get it" in other areas of business, but run into a freakin' brick wall when it comes to sports franchises.

That's b/c sports franchises aren't like normal businesses.

Sure, Bob can sell lettuce with the best of them, and Carl could and still can sell bananas and ice cream with the best of them.

The problem is that so far neither one of them can run a baseball franchise with the best of them.

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 05:49 PM
That's b/c sports franchises aren't like normal businesses.

Sure, Bob can sell lettuce with the best of them, and Carl could and still can sell bananas and ice cream with the best of them.

The problem is that so far neither one of them can run a baseball franchise with the best of them.

Lindner has other successful businesses besides bananas and ice cream. You don't get to be worth a few billion dollars by being a moron.

Steinbrenner, love him or hate him, runs a very successful shipping company, and he managed to transfer over the knowledge well. Of course, he's also willing to put his money where his mouth is. Something that seems to have been forgotten by our wonderful owner.

But, the losing stops now! :thumbdown

dsmith421
08-17-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm thinking it must be a free ticket to the creation museum. They've got billboards up all over Cincinnati for that "museum."

Ah yes, I hear they are replacing the bullpen car with a tame, saddled tricerotops for that game.

WMR
08-17-2009, 05:56 PM
Ah yes, I hear they are replacing the bullpen car with a tame, saddled tricerotops for that game.

:lol: :laugh: :lol:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3367265715_96427509c4.jpg?v=0

Reds1
08-17-2009, 06:00 PM
Have a bobblehead night every night and they will come. :)

TheNext44
08-17-2009, 06:03 PM
I actually think that Fay is partially right. I would love to see all those moves.

Stubbs in CF
Phillips at SS
Frazier or someone else cheap and young at 2B
Balentien in LF.

But I don't see that as a punting of the season. The Reds will have a much improved lineup next season this way.

Stubbs
Hanigan
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Phillips
Frazier
Janish

is much better than anything the Reds had this year, even if Dusty switches Janish and Hanigan.

I think a back end starter signed for one or two years is all the team needs then to compete.

Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Owings

is a decent rotation that just lacks depth, but that is easy and cheap to fill.

They won't dominate, they won't be a playoff team, but they should be a .500 team if healthy. Then they can use the saved money at the trade deadline to pick up whoever they need.

That team would be an improvement over the 2008 team, who would be at around .500 if healthy. I would bet that the above team for 2009 would win around 85 games if healthy and be in the race all season long.

Kc61
08-17-2009, 06:17 PM
I actually think that Fay is partially right. I would love to see all those moves.

Stubbs in CF
Phillips at SS
Frazier or someone else cheap and young at 2B
Balentien in LF.

But I don't see that as a punting of the season. The Reds will have a much improved lineup next season this way.

Stubbs
Hanigan
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Phillips
Frazier
Janish

is much better than anything the Reds had this year, even if Dusty switches Janish and Hanigan.

I think a back end starter signed for one or two years is all the team needs then to compete.

Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Owings

is a decent rotation that just lacks depth, but that is easy and cheap to fill.

They won't dominate, they won't be a playoff team, but they should be a .500 team if healthy. Then they can use the saved money at the trade deadline to pick up whoever they need.

That team would be an improvement over the 2008 team, who would be at around .500 if healthy. I would bet that the above team for 2009 would win around 85 games if healthy and be in the race all season long.

You got three middle infielders and two outfielders in your lineup.

The Reds can do better than this. They should be able to sign one good hitter for the middle of the lineup. They never replaced Dunn, even remotely.

I wouldn't let them off the hook this easily.

cincrazy
08-17-2009, 06:20 PM
I actually think that Fay is partially right. I would love to see all those moves.

Stubbs in CF
Phillips at SS
Frazier or someone else cheap and young at 2B
Balentien in LF.

But I don't see that as a punting of the season. The Reds will have a much improved lineup next season this way.

Stubbs
Hanigan
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Phillips
Frazier
Janish

is much better than anything the Reds had this year, even if Dusty switches Janish and Hanigan.

I think a back end starter signed for one or two years is all the team needs then to compete.

Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Owings

is a decent rotation that just lacks depth, but that is easy and cheap to fill.

They won't dominate, they won't be a playoff team, but they should be a .500 team if healthy. Then they can use the saved money at the trade deadline to pick up whoever they need.

That team would be an improvement over the 2008 team, who would be at around .500 if healthy. I would bet that the above team for 2009 would win around 85 games if healthy and be in the race all season long.

I don't believe that to be the case. Stubbs and Frazier are two HUGE question marks, and assuming they're going to step right in and be major league ready is a major reach. We have no clue whether Rolen can stay healthy, we don't know if Bruce is going to hit, we don't know if Hanigan can duplicate the season he's had in a part time role to a full time role. We don't know what we have with Bailey, Owings has been junk, Cueto is no guarantee to be healthy, let alone productive, as is the case with any young pitcher.

Potentially, next season's team could surprise. But I'd be willing to bet they'd fall on their face before I'd bet they'd win 85 games.

Geez I'm so cynical nowadays.

Spring~Fields
08-17-2009, 06:43 PM
I'm thinking it must be a free ticket to the creation museum. They've got billboards up all over Cincinnati for that "museum."

"Creation museum" ? Is that where Dusty gets his lineups and Patterson/Tevaras theories?

edabbs44
08-17-2009, 06:51 PM
I don't believe that to be the case. Stubbs and Frazier are two HUGE question marks, and assuming they're going to step right in and be major league ready is a major reach. We have no clue whether Rolen can stay healthy, we don't know if Bruce is going to hit, we don't know if Hanigan can duplicate the season he's had in a part time role to a full time role. We don't know what we have with Bailey, Owings has been junk, Cueto is no guarantee to be healthy, let alone productive, as is the case with any young pitcher.

Potentially, next season's team could surprise. But I'd be willing to bet they'd fall on their face before I'd bet they'd win 85 games.

Geez I'm so cynical nowadays.
No, you are correct. This is why the burn and start from scratch model works better than the partial rebuild we have had the enjoyment of watching.

Spring~Fields
08-17-2009, 06:52 PM
I don't think Fay has it completely covered. I really believe that Jocketty will continue using the prospects to trade them off for the types of players that he has so far. He has shown us some indicators of his braintrust and their thinking by trading off some prospects already. Jocketty's past magic was performed in St. Louis under different times and conditions in the National league and the Central division. I don't think he is in the right place at the right time this time around.

Spring~Fields
08-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Geez I'm so cynical nowadays.

Why would you have trust or confidence in them? Based upon what results?

cincrazy
08-17-2009, 06:59 PM
Why would you have trust or confidence in them? Based upon what results?

Exactly. I think that's why I snapped.

traderumor
08-17-2009, 07:12 PM
If Bob doesn't have the necessary means to turn this team into a winner, then he either needs to continue to make money and be honest with the fanbase that he's just turning a profit, or he needs to sell the team to someone with the necessary means to turn the Reds into a winner.

Bob needs to either try to grow this market and the Reds brand, or stop saying the losing stops now when all he's really saying is "I'm too cheap to put a winning product on the field b/c it'll cut into my profits".

Bob should figure out how to increase the fanbase, b/c that'll help his bottomline as well as hopefully help to field a better product.

It's true, if you build a winner, the fans will come.Honestly, I see nothing that indicates Bob is in it for ROI. He seems to genuinely want to win, he just hasn't made good hiring decisions at the top yet.

Spring~Fields
08-17-2009, 07:16 PM
Honestly, I see nothing that indicates Bob is in it for ROI. He seems to genuinely want to win, he just hasn't made good hiring decisions at the top yet.

What about his limited partners like Lindner, and Reik, that Bob has to account to? Remember when that group got upset with Marge over their money?

Investors
Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Carl H. Lindner -- Carl H. Lindner III -- Mrs. Louis Nippert -- William J. Reik -- George L. Strike
Rick Steiner, Buy Buy Baseball, LLC - EMK Investment Company, LLC - Larry Sheakley - Jeffrey L. Wyler
Harry J. Fath - Jeffrey L. Gendell - Edwin J. Riguad, AACE, LLC - HKR Baseball, LLC - Ronald L. Sargent
John H. Wyant - George H. Vincent, Queen City Diamond, LLC - Heading for Home, LLC - Art Hauser

dougdirt
08-17-2009, 07:17 PM
You got three middle infielders and two outfielders in your lineup.

The Reds can do better than this. They should be able to sign one good hitter for the middle of the lineup. They never replaced Dunn, even remotely.

I wouldn't let them off the hook this easily.

I believe with that set up Frazier would be playing in LF.

Where is the money going to come from to sign a middle of the order hitter btw?

traderumor
08-17-2009, 07:18 PM
What about his limited partners like Lindner, and Reich, that Bob has to account to?What about them? He's calling the shots with controlling interest. They're just along for the ride. Since there have not been any rumblings with Reich belly-aching like in the Lindner days, I think Bob is the man.

KoryMac5
08-17-2009, 07:26 PM
If Bob doesn't have the necessary means to turn this team into a winner, then he either needs to continue to make money and be honest with the fanbase that he's just turning a profit, or he needs to sell the team to someone with the necessary means to turn the Reds into a winner.

Bob needs to either try to grow this market and the Reds brand, or stop saying the losing stops now when all he's really saying is "I'm too cheap to put a winning product on the field b/c it'll cut into my profits".

Bob should figure out how to increase the fanbase, b/c that'll help his bottomline as well as hopefully help to field a better product.

It's true, if you build a winner, the fans will come.

Unfortunately these days you could say that about 3/4 of the ownership in baseball. Most of these guys buy teams with the thought of keeping there heads above water for 10 years or so until they can sell and turn a profit. They have gone from flipping houses to flipping franchises.

Spring~Fields
08-17-2009, 07:27 PM
What about them? He's calling the shots with controlling interest. They're just along for the ride. Since there have not been any rumblings with Reich belly-aching like in the Lindner days, I think Bob is the man.

Doesn't he still have fiduciary responsibilty or have to follow prudent man theory with their investment dollars? I think it would be resonable for the limited with such powerful men to have substantial input on their investments.

RedLegSuperStar
08-17-2009, 07:43 PM
Joey Votto is the only home grown Reds prospect that I can think of that is difference maker on this club in a long long time. Who was the before that? Larkin? Point being is the Reds don't have a good track record with drafting and developing players. Every year it's the same crap we have to hear.. We're bringing winning baseball back to Cincinnati until we fall out of contention and then it's we'll get em next year. It's a crappy broken record I hear year after year. Heck Bobby Abreu was to expensive for a team that just traded for Scott Rolen? What's that logic? This organization is going to get passed by the pirates you watch and see!

WVRedsFan
08-17-2009, 07:49 PM
I'm late on this, but I haven't been to a game since 2006. Yes, that's right. 2006. It's a six hour trek to Cincinnati where I have to stay in an expensive hotel, put out $20 or more for each ticket, and buy the expensive concessions. I figure a two game weekend trip costs me about $700. I used to do it at least twice a year. No more. From opening day this year, there was not one Red outside of Joey Votto, that I was going to pay that kind of money to see. I would do it for Griffey or Dunn. The Reds put a boring team on the field from Opening Day. Who in their right mind would pay to see that. I think we have the answer. My father used to go and watch games in the lean years between 1940 and 1960, but those teams had players that were exciting. We have one.

You can blame the large contracts on Krivsky (Cordero, Harang, Arroyo, etc) with a big headed goofy owner, but Dusty has to share the blame for Taveras, Patterson, McDonald coming up, Hairston, and some of the people that are on the roster today. Dusty has to take the blame for putting the two worst OBP guys batting 1-2. He has to get the blame for batting Phillips cleanup. And many other things.

Like KC, I think with the acquisition of a SS who can hit, an outfielder who can slug, and another reliable starter, we're a .500 club. Build on that. Fire the manager. Do a little more at the trade deadline in 2010. Rid yourself of the big contracts that didn't work out. We're not that far from at least competing in the division, but field management is holding us back. Give Dusty all stars and he'd find a way to bury them in a lineup. He must go.

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 07:54 PM
I'm late on this, but I haven't been to a game since 2006. Yes, that's right. 2006. It's a six hour trek to Cincinnati where I have to stay in an expensive hotel, put out $20 or more for each ticket, and buy the expensive concessions. I figure a two game weekend trip costs me about $700. I used to do it at least twice a year. No more. From opening day this year, there was not one Red outside of Joey Votto, that I was going to pay that kind of money to see. I would do it for Griffey or Dunn. The Reds put a boring team on the field from Opening Day. Who in their right mind would pay to see that. I think we have the answer. My father used to go and watch games in the lean years between 1940 and 1960, but those teams had players that were exciting. We have one.

You can blame the large contracts on Krivsky (Cordero, Harang, Arroyo, etc) with a big headed goofy owner, but Dusty has to share the blame for Taveras, Patterson, McDonald coming up, Hairston, and some of the people that are on the roster today. Dusty has to take the blame for putting the two worst OBP guys batting 1-2. He has to get the blame for batting Phillips cleanup. And many other things.

Like KC, I think with the acquisition of a SS who can hit, an outfielder who can slug, and another reliable starter, we're a .500 club. Build on that. Fire the manager. Do a little more at the trade deadline in 2010. Rid yourself of the big contracts that didn't work out. We're not that far from at least competing in the division, but field management is holding us back. Give Dusty all stars and he'd find a way to bury them in a lineup. He must go.

Will be interesting to see what happens to Dusty if LaRussa decides to not renew with St. Louis. I'm not sure if he'd go somewhere else, or just retire.

Eric_the_Red
08-17-2009, 07:55 PM
I'm late on this, but I haven't been to a game since 2006. Yes, that's right. 2006. It's a six hour trek to Cincinnati where I have to stay in an expensive hotel, put out $20 or more for each ticket, and buy the expensive concessions. I figure a two game weekend trip costs me about $700. I used to do it at least twice a year. No more. From opening day this year, there was not one Red outside of Joey Votto, that I was going to pay that kind of money to see. I would do it for Griffey or Dunn. The Reds put a boring team on the field from Opening Day. Who in their right mind would pay to see that. I think we have the answer. My father used to go and watch games in the lean years between 1940 and 1960, but those teams had players that were exciting. We have one.



Why not stay in a less expensive hotel within 20 minutes or so of the stadium, buy the $5 seats or get some cheap ones on eBay and bring your food into the park?

nate
08-17-2009, 08:02 PM
Why not stay in a less expensive hotel within 20 minutes or so of the stadium, buy the $5 seats or get some cheap ones on eBay and bring your food into the park?

I dunno. If I'm going to drive that far (and I'm going to in a couple of weeks), I want to stay and sit somewhere nice.

GAC
08-17-2009, 08:09 PM
all that matters is talent evaluation.

That's all that needed to be said as far as I'm concerned. Other then talent acquisition.

Walt cleaned out payroll last year, as well as some dregs. Good. He and this FO obviously decided they wanted to go in a different direction. He went into the off-season with a golden opportunity IMO to add an impact player or two and possibly compete in this division. At least he could have made some improvement/upgrade on that curve. He could have even possibly sold high on a few players.

He didn't. Other then the bullpen and catcher Hernandez (the Orioles picked up a majority of that contract too). But he went into the '09 season with more question marks then the previous season IMO.

So if what we saw in '09 was this new "direction", then WOW!

And I don't know that Jocketty is the best evaluator of talent either. Big trading deadline deal maker? Yes. But even Walt acknowledged that he relies on others, especially when it comes to the draft and farm system, to fulfill those roles. And looking at what he has constructed, and relied on, in various key positions on this team in '09 doesn't help his cause any.

I'm not optimistic at this off-season when they didn't take advantage in the last of-season, AND when I hear him bragging on the Rolen acquisition, as if that is some huge, progressive move towards improving this team in 2010.

That is unless he's got other "plans" in this off-season.

GAC
08-17-2009, 08:10 PM
I dunno. If I'm going to drive that far (and I'm going to in a couple of weeks), I want to stay and sit somewhere nice.

If we have to suffer, lets suffer in comfort. Field level seats help us get a bird's eye view of the pain. :p:

KronoRed
08-17-2009, 09:21 PM
Same plan it appears, hope the team gets hot, things fall into place and 5 guys have career years.

The Cincinnati "Hoping for the 1999 season" Reds

The only hope, I find it hard to believe Walt signed on for such ride, if he bails then we'll know for sure.

Heath
08-17-2009, 09:29 PM
I'm thinking Walt's gonna get a shot with a manager he wants.

Not think he needed.

cincrazy
08-17-2009, 09:30 PM
Why not stay in a less expensive hotel within 20 minutes or so of the stadium, buy the $5 seats or get some cheap ones on eBay and bring your food into the park?

Every time I go down I go the $5 route, and by the 3rd inning I'm sitting in $30 seats. The only good thing about following a crappy team is you can get in cheap and still land good seats by moving, because nobody shows up.

jojo
08-17-2009, 09:32 PM
I'm thinking Walt's gonna get a shot with a manager he wants.

Not think he needed.

We've all assumed that LaRussa/Duncan are Walt's guys.

That may very well be true but stepping back for a moment, why in the world would they come to Cincy?

BCubb2003
08-17-2009, 09:36 PM
Every time I go down I go the $5 route, and by the 3rd inning I'm sitting in $30 seats. The only good thing about following a crappy team is you can get in cheap and still land good seats by moving, because nobody shows up.

That's called situational pricing.

nate
08-17-2009, 09:37 PM
We've all assumed that LaRussa/Duncan are Walt's guys.

That may very well be true but stepping back for a moment, why in the world would they come to Cincy?

To experience the full range of "Wide World of Sports" emotions?

:cool:

cincrazy
08-17-2009, 09:45 PM
We've all assumed that LaRussa/Duncan are Walt's guys.

That may very well be true but stepping back for a moment, why in the world would they come to Cincy?

Because the losing stops now! That's why!

Reds4Life
08-17-2009, 09:53 PM
We've all assumed that LaRussa/Duncan are Walt's guys.

That may very well be true but stepping back for a moment, why in the world would they come to Cincy?

It would take a very large pile o' cash to get them here, most likely.

Would be nice, but we are probably stuck with Dusty until the end of his contract. I wouldn't be suprised if they extended his contract. The only saving grace, if this team loses 90-100 games this year, they are going to have a really hard time justifying why Baker and the coaching staff are still employed.

corkedbat
08-17-2009, 10:26 PM
LaRussa - and by extention, Duncan - aren't coming here with the budget and mindset that is now in place.

westofyou
08-17-2009, 10:29 PM
We've all assumed that LaRussa/Duncan are Walt's guys.

That may very well be true but stepping back for a moment, why in the world would they come to Cincy?

For the Three way... duh.

TheNext44
08-18-2009, 01:06 AM
You got three middle infielders and two outfielders in your lineup.

The Reds can do better than this. They should be able to sign one good hitter for the middle of the lineup. They never replaced Dunn, even remotely.

I wouldn't let them off the hook this easily.

Sorry about that, very busy these days and typed that as I was leaving. I obviously meant to put Balentien in there, replacing Janish, but higher in the order.

My point was that the Reds get the big bat at the trading deadline if they are still in it. Build a team that if healthy, will be in it, then make the trade for the big bat.

If they get the big bat in the offseason, they don't have the depth to handle injuries, so if there are any, that signing will be a waste. I know it means more possible losing seasons, but it means that if the Reds do stay healthy, the will have a chance every year.

macro
08-18-2009, 02:23 AM
Willy T is the shining example of a clueless organization ... what he has done was entirely predictable. He was an awful fit for the Reds yet they couldn't see it. They thought he was shinola instead of what he really is.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VsyS0oHLNFA/2.jpg

I realize that most people aren't going to get this picture, but I'm going to post it anyway.

Mario-Rijo
08-18-2009, 02:51 AM
Willy T is the shining example of a clueless organization ... what he has done was entirely predictable. He was an awful fit for the Reds yet they couldn't see it. They thought he was shinola instead of what he really is.

If they can't properly identify Willy T and his ilk I have no confidence they can get much of anything else correct, instead I simply attribute "good moves" to the blind squirrel theory.

EXACTLY!!! :clap:

Big Klu
08-18-2009, 03:33 AM
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VsyS0oHLNFA/2.jpg

I realize that most people aren't going to get this picture, but I'm going to post it anyway.

Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey, see a doctor and get rid of it. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
08-18-2009, 04:37 AM
Willy T is the shining example of a clueless organization ... what he has done was entirely predictable. He was an awful fit for the Reds yet they couldn't see it. They thought he was shinola instead of what he really is.

If they can't properly identify Willy T and his ilk I have no confidence they can get much of anything else correct, instead I simply attribute "good moves" to the blind squirrel theory.

I nominate this as "THE POST OF THE YEAR" whole lotta truth in there.

:beerme:

I have never gave up on a season as early as I am now for the 2010 season.

dfs
08-18-2009, 10:00 AM
LaRussa - and by extention, Duncan - aren't coming here with the budget and mindset that is now in place.

Exactly. Tony's got the cards in first place by 6 games and they play in a packed stadium every night AND he gets to coach Albert.

Why in the wide world of sports would Tony LaRussa want to com to the Reds organization?

More money? There simply isn't enough money in the world.

Roy Tucker
08-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Having re-read this column in this AM's Enquirer, I think the content also speaks for Fay's acuity of the Reds or lack thereof. I mean, this is really all the better you can do?

membengal
08-18-2009, 10:38 AM
In Fay's defense, and, really, who ever defends him, but, still, in fay's defense, this is the Reds he's been forced to write about. As hard as it is for a lot of us zealots to follow them, it must be hard finding new angles to write about.

WMR
08-18-2009, 10:40 AM
I bet Bill Bavasi was instrumental in devising this devious plan.

Chip R
08-18-2009, 10:41 AM
It could be (given that Fay's an idiot, it's unlikely) that he believes the Reds will do nothing and if he writes a column saying that, the masses will arise and demand that the Reds do something to put a winner on the field.

RANDY IN INDY
08-18-2009, 10:59 AM
I think that if the Reds are going to keep Dusty as a manager, they need to bring in a strong pitching coach with some presence.

dsmith421
08-18-2009, 11:03 AM
I bet Bill Bavasi was instrumental in devising this devious plan.

Can you imagine the pure baseball synergy that occurs when you get titans like Bavasi, Cam Bonifay, and Jamie Quirk together in one room?

Pure magic.

nate
08-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Can you imagine the pure baseball synergy that occurs when you get titans like Bavasi, Cam Bonifay, and Jamie Quirk together in one room?

Pure magic.

Imagine harnessing that synergy and converting it to energy.

One could toast bread.

Lightly.

Cyclone792
08-18-2009, 11:07 AM
Can you imagine the pure baseball synergy that occurs when you get titans like Bavasi, Cam Bonifay, and Jamie Quirk together in one room?

Pure magic.

It's like magical flat-earth thinking.

Highlifeman21
08-18-2009, 11:22 AM
It's like magical flat-earth thinking.

Just wait a darn minute....

The Earth isn't flat?

Spring~Fields
08-18-2009, 12:41 PM
It's like magical flat-earth thinking.

:lol:

Spring~Fields
08-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Can you imagine the pure baseball synergy that occurs when you get titans like Bavasi, Cam Bonifay, and Jamie Quirk together in one room?

Pure magic.

I hope them and Jocketty are working pro bono. ;)

Big Klu
08-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Just wait a darn minute....

The Earth isn't flat?

Of course not. It's saucer-shaped, with a rim around the edge. If it were flat, all the water would run off.

Everyone knows that!

Highlifeman21
08-18-2009, 01:25 PM
Of course not. It's saucer-shaped, with a rim around the edge. If it were flat, all the water would run off.

Everyone knows that!

Oh, good point.

I didn't think about the rim.

Everything is good now!

Blitz Dorsey
08-18-2009, 01:34 PM
Hey, not so fast. Maybe there are some more over-the-hill ex-Cardinals from Jocketty's glory days in St. Louis that we can overpay for (both with prospects and the contract itself).

The big problem that everyone keeps missing is the incredible turnover rate with our general managers. Since Bowden left (and boy I'm glad he did, but...) it has been one GM after another. And they only get about 2 years on average to show what they can do. The next guy comes in and spends at least a year tearing down what the previous guy did and trying to build his own team. Then that team sucks and the cycle continues.

This organization will really turn around when we have a good GM that is in place for several years. You can't have a new GM every two years and expect to be successful in MLB. I was hoping Jocketty was going to be the right guy, but he's proven me wrong. Jocketty is a joke. Except the only one laughing is Willy Taveras.

Roy Tucker
08-20-2009, 10:00 AM
Can you imagine the pure baseball synergy that occurs when you get titans like Bavasi, Cam Bonifay, and Jamie Quirk together in one room?




The more I think about it, the more I think this "brain trust" is a big chunk of the problem.

At the end of the day, Jocketty is responsible. But I don't think these guys are steering him in the right direction.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2009, 11:18 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think this "brain trust" is a big chunk of the problem.
At the end of the day, Jocketty is responsible. But I don't think these guys are steering him in the right direction.

I wonder if Castellini could get the government to give him a waiver, and then trade his front office in on the "clunker" program" ? Of course Bob would have to stick to cabbage, lettuce and tomatoes himself, something he knows.